Metropolitan Police officers assaulted autistic boy

[bbfan1991]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17366756

Disgusting, poor lad.

[Livia]

It's very unfortunate, but it seems to me that everyone has to be a care worker these days. I'm sure the officers didn't know that he was autistic and just merrily restrained him anyway. If he's autistic, where was the person who was supposed to be looking after him, who obviously wasn't doing their job if he jumped into a swimming pool fully clothed? He could have drowned. Who would they have sued then?

The police will obviously appeal this case and I hope it's overturned.

[Niamh.]

It's very unfortunate, but it seems to me that everyone has to be a care worker these days. I'm sure the officers didn't know that he was autistic and just merrily restrained him anyway. If he's autistic, where was the person who was supposed to be looking after him, who obviously wasn't doing their job if he jumped into a swimming pool fully clothed? He could have drowned. Who would they have sued then?

The police will obviously appeal this case and I hope it's overturned.

Yeah, my first thought was that the officers probably didn't know he was autistic and thought he was a messer showing off to his friends. The story doesn't make it clear as to whether or not they were made aware of his condition by anyone at the time

[Livia]

I find it hard to believe that a lad with the problems he had could get anywhere near the swimming pool, let alone be able to jump in fully clothed. Coppers aren't all bad, most of them are trying to do a good job under difficult circumstances, and someone getting a cash windfall like this, by besmirching their probably good intentions, smacks of profiteering.

[arista]

It's very unfortunate, but it seems to me that everyone has to be a care worker these days. I'm sure the officers didn't know that he was autistic and just merrily restrained him anyway. If he's autistic, where was the person who was supposed to be looking after him, who obviously wasn't doing their job if he jumped into a swimming pool fully clothed? He could have drowned. Who would they have sued then?

The police will obviously appeal this case and I hope it's overturned.


Yes
its a error.

[Niamh.]

Yes
its a error.

If it was an error, then surely the only person who bears any sort of responsibility was the person who was supposed to be looking after him? How can the Police be punished for not being psychic?

[arista]

If it was an error, then surely the only person who bears any sort of responsibility was the person who was supposed to be looking after him? How can the Police be punished for not being psychic?


Yes
Bang On Right

[Ammi]

The judge said lawyers for ZH had established his claim for trespass to the person, assault and battery and false imprisonment under the Disability Discrimination Act and the Human Rights Act,

He said: "The case highlights the need for there to be an awareness of the disability of autism within the public services.

"It is to be hoped that this sad case will help bring that about."

This is quite interesting..I'd like to know more about it...if he were in an organised group..where the pool staff advised of this.
I accept that he was in danger of drowning and he had to be removed from the pool for his own safety...I would like to know more details as on this article alone..as no one else appeared to be in danger or at risk..and the police officers presumably were of hefty size...I wouldn't have thought the handcuffs and cage were necessary..I would have hoped that there was someone in his group to accompany and calm him...as I say..I'm not privvy to all of the details and facts.

[Niamh.]

The judge said lawyers for ZH had established his claim for trespass to the person, assault and battery and false imprisonment under the Disability Discrimination Act and the Human Rights Act,

He said: "The case highlights the need for there to be an awareness of the disability of autism within the public services.

"It is to be hoped that this sad case will help bring that about."

This is quite interesting..I'd like to know more about it...if he were in an organised group..where the pool staff advised of this.
I accept that he was in danger of drowning and he had to be removed from the pool for his own safety...I would like to know more details as on this article alone..as no one else appeared to be in danger or at risk..and the police officers presumably were of hefty size...I wouldn't have thought the handcuffs and cage were necessary..I would have hoped that there was someone in his group to accompany and calm him...as I say..I'm not privvy to all of the details and facts.

Yeah, the article doesn't give a very clear picture of what actually happened at all

[arista]

He was on a School Trip
BBC London News just said

[Brother Leon]

They will probably charge the kid for hurting the Officer's hands.

[Kizzy]

It states in the article he was on a school trip. The teachers will have made the officers aware of his condition. The judge in this case found the police to have acted unreasonably, its not unheard of for officers to make mistakes.
They have to be held accountable if this is the case, if the police never make mistakes why do we need the IPCC?

[arista]

It states in the article he was on a school trip. The teachers will have made the officers aware of his condition. The judge in this case found the police to have acted unreasonably, its not unheard of for officers to make mistakes.
They have to be held accountable if this is the case, if the police never make mistakes why do we need the IPCC?



Is that a Fact?

[arista]

It was just debated on Ch4News

[Brother Leon]

Jail time for the Police officers involved tbh.


*Doesn't hold breath*

[Kizzy]

Is that a Fact?
He was on a school trip, therefore they had a duty of care and were responsible for this teenager. Any medical condition he had they will have been fully aware of. In assessing the situation the attending officers will have questioned the group leader to find out what the possible cause of his agitated state was.
Do you think the judge in his wisdom delivered the wrong verdict?

[Ammi]

The police should learn techniques of how to deal with an autistic person when they are in panic and meltdown. If he was thrown to the ground or roughly held in any way, which is probable, in getting him to safety from the pool..he would have been struggling an and a danger to himself and others...I presume that is why the handcuffs and leg restraints were used. The police would not have known any other way to stop the situation. When an autistic child experiences something extremely negative..it's often flee or fight and it will be a long time before they can be calmed. It's up to the police force to train in techniques and look out for signs of autism.

The pool should have been aware that there was an autistic child in the group and the teachers themselves would have had to carry out a specific risk assessment for him...but these things can still happen...and I don't know any details but from the little I have read..I would have said..no one was to blame..but I don't know the details.

At first, I thought the restraints seemed extreme...but I think it was probably all they could do to protect him and others.

I don't know about the compensation part...Imo..it's the least important fact of this

I hope this case raises awareness and prompts thre police force into training on techniques to deal with autism

[Livia]

The Police have got to be all things to all people. They are not social workers or carers. Presumably someone called the police, it's not usual for them to patrol swimming pools on the off-chance, and as far as I know they don't restrain and handcuff people for no reason. You have to question the thinking of the people who were supposed to be caring for the boy in question.

Of couse the police make mistakes, they're people no robots. And sometimes people get a nice hefty payout on the strength of those mistakes. I don't see how a pile of cash that indirectly comes from the taxpayer can help someone get over their perceived wrongs.

[Kizzy]

There are policies and proceedures that have to be adhered to, when dealing with minors and an anyone with a mental or physical disability.
If these officers failed to follow the correct proceedure the family have the right to report it as negligence.
What is the point of having guidelines written to follow if you are not going to follow them? The officer in charge could have radioed the control room at any point to find out this information. The judge awarded compensation in this case, what other way could this have been resolved? Have the officers involved lose their job?
It is interesting that the Police have refused to apologise and instead are wasting taxpayers money further by appealing the judges decision.

[Ammi]

There are policies and proceedures that have to be adhered to, when dealing with minors and an anyone with a mental or physical disability.
If these officers failed to follow the correct proceedure the family have the right to report it as negligence.
What is the point of having guidelines written to follow if you are not going to follow them? The officer in charge could have radioed the control room at any point to find out this information. The judge awarded compensation in this case, what other way could this have been resolved? Have the officers involved lose their job?
It is interesting that the Police have refused to apologise and instead are wasting taxpayers money further by appealing the judges decision.

Yes you are right..there are procedures..everything from the tone of your voice to how you move. But those procedures Kizzy..though very effective..are futile if an autistic child has gone into 'meltdown'..it will then become flee or fight..and it will take hours and hours to resume the calm.
There would have been no time or opportunity, I am guessing to..radio..and they would have dealt with as best they could..in a way that the guy could not have harmed himself further or anyone around him....they tried their best..as far as I can see..on the details that are given.
..that's all anyone can do...I can't see that a money compensation can do any good here...what is needed is more awareness...but even then..in this case...I'm guessing from the moment the boy jumped into the pool...no trained techniques could have prevented his panic...I think they did all they could

[Kizzy]

Its unfortunate that they didn't ....radio.... It would have prevented a lot of time and money being wasted, not to mention the damage to the reputation of the Met Police.
Whats the alternative then to compensation?

[Ammi]

Its unfortunate that they didn't ....radio.... It would have prevented a lot of time and money being wasted, not to mention the damage to the reputation of the Met Police.
Whats the alternative then to compensation?

It's unfortunate that he could not be prevented from jumping into the pool in the first place..but that doesn't mean anyone is at fault..it takes a second is all. It may and probably did take all the police strength to restrain him and I am guessing that a 'radio call' was not a feasible option...a child in panic is extroadinarily strong
..the alternative is training on techniques to deal with autistic children but that may not be feasible either..budget restraints. However, imo if a problem can't be helped by a payout of compensation...why make it..it doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever...money doesn't always solve things and it would be better to seek a solution, if possible than hand out some cash

[Kizzy]

The bottom line is they did not follow the correct proceedure and therefore placed themselves in a position where there was a case to be heard.
They lost the case and the victim was recompensed.

[Patrick]

Disgusting bastards.

And believe me, I really don't think I kid with that level with Autism would care too much about showing off to his friends - especially if he can barely communicate FFS.

[Niamh.]

Disgusting bastards.

And believe me, I really don't think I kid with that level with Autism would care too much about showing off to his friends - especially if he can barely communicate FFS.

If that was in reference to my post, I don't think you read it properly.

[Ammi]

The bottom line is they did not follow the correct proceedure and therefore placed themselves in a position where there was a case to be heard.
They lost the case and the victim was recompensed.

The judge, Sir Robert Nelson, said although the officers attending the incident were acting as they genuinely thought best, their responses were "over-hasty and ill-informed".

There is not always a 'correct procedure' when dealing with situations..I don't think it is in any doubt that police are not specifally trained in techniques to deal with autism or if those techniques would have worked in the case of this boys obvious distress and panic..and as the jusdge said...I'm sure they did their best
It didn't end well for anyone..either the boy or the police..and I'm sure the staff who's care he was in...but these things are not always 'somebodys fault'..despite precautions and well intentioned methods..sometimes things still go t*ts up...and money doesn't always solve it..it's becoming a 'compensation nation'..and it really doesn't address any problems..which is the real shame..surely the 'fix'..if there is one..would be better than the pay off

[Kizzy]

There are always procedures, they just didn't follow them.
http://www.npia.police.uk/en/docs/Mental_ill_Health.pdf

[Ammi]

I've had a flick through Kizzy and didn't see anything apprpriate to this case and the boy being in 'meltdown'...do you mind copy and pasting it on the thread..I'm not sure what difference it will make in terms of how the officers handled this ad they were not attempting to communicate with an autistic child..they were trying to prevent him from harming himself or others...but maybe it has some guidance to that..I would be interested in reading if it does..it's interesting to know what trainig is given in this area
..it's a huge document and you know where to look...thanks

[joeysteele]

I guess, it seems to me anyway that this unfortunate incident shows that the people who did have the information as to this boy's condition and also who should have been there caring for and protecting him were nowhere to be seen or heard at the time.

Furthermore it appears to me the Police acted as they would in situations such as what happened but that they alone are now expected by all and sundry,even the boy's official carers,(for want of a better description),to be social workers, doctors,nurses and even psychics.

[Livia]

The boy jumped into the water despite not being able to swim. He was there with people who are paid carers. If anyone didn't follow procedure in the first instance, I would assume it was the carers. Reports say that an officer tried to grab the boys sleeve as he ran toward the water but was unable to stop him because of his large build and his momentum. I'm guessing if he was of a large big build he would have been particularly difficult to restrain if he was distressed.

The police are applying for leave to appeal. I'm not surprised. Nothing's black and white, and nothing's over till it's over.

[Kizzy]

No i dont have the time, the case has been heard and the professionals with the information have made a decision.
We may not always agree with it.... but the law is the law and no one is above it even those who have a duty to uphold it.

[Livia]

The law is the law, and the appeals process exists for a reason.

[Kizzy]

It is a waste of public funds, and makes a mockery of not only the Met but the British Justice System.
The case was heard and a decision made.

[Kizzy]

It is a waste of public funds, and makes a mockery of not only the Met but the British Justice System.
The case was heard and a decision made.

[Livia]

It is a waste of public funds, and makes a mockery of not only the Met but the British Justice System.
The case was heard and a decision made.

So you think the justice system could be improved by removing the right to appeal. Interesting... You have more confidence in judges and the system as a whole than I do.

[thesheriff443]

mistakes where made on both sides,just learn from it and move on,

[Kizzy]

So you think the justice system could be improved by removing the right to appeal. Interesting... You have more confidence in judges and the system as a whole than I do.

Livia please dont manipulate my words its rude. Nowhere on my post does it suggest that.

[Livia]

Livia please dont manipulate my words its rude. Nowhere on my post does it suggest that.

It seems you don't have the monopoly on rudeness then. I said the appeals process exists for a reason, and you said "It is a waste of public funds, and makes a mockery of not only the Met but the British Justice System. The case was heard and a decision made." Does that not mean you are against them appealing? Because it is a waste of public funds and a decision has been made? If that's not what you mean, what exactly do you mean?

[Ammi]

It is a waste of public funds, and makes a mockery of not only the Met but the British Justice System.
The case was heard and a decision made.

Personally, I think it's not a good use of public funds to pay the compensation as oppose to..say using it to fund some proper training in these specific cases..and I think this case was 'unique'. If the police feel that this court decision is wrong then I do think they should take it to appeal..not merely to 'clear' them...but to create awareness..I'm sure that is best for everyone..especially the young man himself
As I say..a 'unique' case and under the circumstances, I think the police did as well as they could..as the judge said..and if there was any unessacary 'restraint'..I'm sure it was from ignorance of how to handle it differently...the verdict seems harsh and..pointless tbh...and it's a shame because we need good policing in this country....and I don't see any bad policing here....which the judge stated too

[Kizzy]

im not sure where i have ever been rude to you, or why you appear to be attacking me for my stance on this issue.
I am aware of what i said. I stand by the fact it is a waste of public funds in my opinion in this case. It does NOT however mean i am against the appeals process, or that the British Justice system would be improved if it were to be removed.
If you wish to quote me quote the things i say, and not your interpretation of them please.

[thesheriff443]

this has cleary affected this guy,suffering post traumatic stress,just beacuse the police where doing what they think is right he can just wistle!
a doctor makes a decision that he thinks is right but the patient is hurt,does that person also get nothing beacuse the doctor was doing what he thought was right

[Kizzy]

Personally, I think it's not a good use of public funds to pay the compensation as oppose to..say using it to fund some proper training in these specific cases..and I think this case was 'unique'. If the police feel that this court decision is wrong then I do think they should take it to appeal..not merely to 'clear' them...but to create awareness..I'm sure that is best for everyone..especially the young man himself
As I say..a 'unique' case and under the circumstances, I think the police did as well as they could..as the judge said..and if there was any unessacary 'restraint'..I'm sure it was from ignorance of how to handle it differently...the verdict seems harsh and..pointless tbh...and it's a shame because we need good policing in this country....and I don't see any bad policing here....which the judge stated too

officers attending the incident were acting as they genuinely thought best, their responses were "over-hasty and ill-informed".

Can you imagine for a moment if all officers did this?
In the volitile situations some officers find themselves in...It is dangerous to behave like this, and is not what officers are trained to do.

[Ammi]

I don't think there's anything I can say..that I haven't already...and it certainly seems that everyone tried their best..but the situation and the distress of the boy was obviously such that the restraints were used..and that is unfortunate..not only for him..but the police..and the staff caring for him. In some cases a financial compensation is appropriate..Imo..not in this..it feels like an opportunity lost to raise awareness..and that is unfortunate for any future similar potential cases.
There's nothing else I can add to this thread..and I'm tired

[MTVN]

I think the Police should swallow their pride and accept the courts judgement, and instead of continuing to use public money in dragging out this case (if that is how it's being funded?) they should be more concerned with training their officers in how to deal with situations like this, to avoid it happening again

[InOne]

Wasn't there that doc a few months ago about the lengths police go to protect their own? The ones who make "mistakes" never seem to have to face the consequences

[Niamh.]

Ok, threads going a bit off topic now, I'm going to close it and clean it

[lostalex]

I dunno why my post got washed, i thought it was appropriate and relevant...??

[Niamh.]

I dunno why my post got washed, i thought it was appropriate and relevant...??

It was too beautiful for this thread Alex :')

[Kizzy]

Ooh its all shiny now :)
Here is the response from the National Autistic Society.


The Metropolitan Police subjected a teenager with autism to degrading treatment, a High Court judge ruled today.

The teenager, who has autism, learning disabilities and epilepsy, was forced into handcuffs and leg restraints during a school trip to Acton Swimming Baths in London in September 2008.

The police officers involved were guilty of assault and battery, unlawful disability discrimination, false imprisonment and multiple breaches of the Human Rights Act, the judge ruled.

"This judgement confirms that in this case the police lacked the understanding and flexibility needed to adapt to a person’s autism and subjected a vulnerable young person to inhuman and degrading treatment", said The National Autistic Society's Director of Education, Jane Vaughan. "Autism training is not routinely provided as part of police training in the UK despite the fact that the condition affects 1 in 100 people."

"People with disabilities look to the police to protect them", says Jane, "and it's vital that their needs and behaviours are understood and accounted for. Autism training should be standard in officer training to ensure that policemen and women understand the needs of this section of society thereby ensuring that disturbing cases like this never happen again

[Niamh.]

Ooh its all shiny now :)
Here is the response from the National Autistic Society.


The Metropolitan Police subjected a teenager with autism to degrading treatment, a High Court judge ruled today.

The teenager, who has autism, learning disabilities and epilepsy, was forced into handcuffs and leg restraints during a school trip to Acton Swimming Baths in London in September 2008.

The police officers involved were guilty of assault and battery, unlawful disability discrimination, false imprisonment and multiple breaches of the Human Rights Act, the judge ruled.

"This judgement confirms that in this case the police lacked the understanding and flexibility needed to adapt to a person’s autism and subjected a vulnerable young person to inhuman and degrading treatment", said The National Autistic Society's Director of Education, Jane Vaughan. "Autism training is not routinely provided as part of police training in the UK despite the fact that the condition affects 1 in 100 people."

"People with disabilities look to the police to protect them", says Jane, "and it's vital that their needs and behaviours are understood and accounted for. Autism training should be standard in officer training to ensure that policemen and women understand the needs of this section of society thereby ensuring that disturbing cases like this never happen again

The bit in bold should, imo, clear the police officers in question though. I know I wouldn't know how to correctly deal with a severely autistic person in that situation. Like Ammi already said, wouldn't the money have been better spent training officers in how to deal with situations like these in the future?

[lostalex]

It was too beautiful for this thread Alex :')

*blushes*

[Vicky.]

I dont actually get whats so degrading about being put in handcuffs?

Maybe slightly the leg restraints but if he was going on ridiculous and kicking out at them then of course its needed.

[Niamh.]

I dont actually get whats so degrading about being put in handcuffs?

Maybe slightly the leg restraints but if he was going on ridiculous and kicking out at them then of course its needed.

Yeah, especially since that report Kizzy posted states that Police are NOT trained in dealing with Autistic people.

[Kizzy]

Its not good enough to say 'i didn't know' when you are in a position of authority though. The money used to launch an appeal could be used to train officers couldn't it?

[Niamh.]

Its not good enough to say 'i didn't know' when you are in a position of authority though. The money used to launch an appeal could be used to train officers couldn't it?

Of course it is, I mean how on earth are they supposed to know how to correctly deal with an autistic person without training?

[Kizzy]

Of course it is, I mean how on earth are they supposed to know how to correctly deal with an autistic person without training?

they may or may not have been trained but there are guidelines ...If they didn't follow them they risked breaking the law themselves. It seems unfair but thats how it is, you have to stick to the rules or you find yourself liable for prosecution.

[Vicky.]

I may be missing the point entirely, but I'm still not getting why its so awful to put an autistic person in handcuffs while it would be perfectly acceptable to do that to a non-autistic person.

[Niamh.]

they may or may not have been trained but there are guidelines ...If they didn't follow them they risked breaking the law themselves. It seems unfair but thats how it is, you have to stick to the rules or you find yourself liable for prosecution.

But the article you just posted says : "Autism training is not routinely provided as part of police training in the UK despite the fact that the condition affects 1 in 100 people." :conf:

[Livia]

Of course it is, I mean how on earth are they supposed to know how to correctly deal with an autistic person without training?

Perhaps it would be a good idea for the windfall that was received by the family to be donated to the National Autistic Society to help raise awareness and fund training. What an amazing gesture that would be and it should get them a good few column inches in the press if awareness is really what they were promiting. Unless they were only in it for the money... in which case they should keep it and have a couple of holidays and a new car.

[Livia]

I may be missing the point entirely, but I'm still not getting why its so awful to put an autistic person in handcuffs while it would be perfectly acceptable to do that to a non-autistic person.

I'm not sure either. Ammi is quite knowledgeable on this subject because of her work. Perhaps she can explain to both of us when she gets on.

[Niamh.]

Perhaps it would be a good idea for the windfall that was received by the family to be donated to the National Autistic Society to help raise awareness and fund training. What an amazing gesture that would be and it should get them a good few column inches in the press if awareness is really what they were promiting. Unless they were only in it for the money... in which case they should keep it and have a couple of holidays and a new car.

Indeed, it does seem that the money would be far better spent on training police in dealing with Autistic people who may be in danger or causing danger to others.

[Kizzy]

I'm not sure either. Ammi is quite knowledgeable on this subject because of her work. Perhaps she can explain to both of us when she gets on.

Ammi stated yesterday she had nothing further to add to this thread.I'm surprised you referred to her work livia considering you accused me of being rude for that recently.
Last year I completed a degree in Public Services, I don't for one second mean that makes my view on this subject any more or less valid than the next persons.
This case highlights in my opinion that mistakes can and will be made, officers are not infallible.

[Kizzy]

But the article you just posted says : "Autism training is not routinely provided as part of police training in the UK despite the fact that the condition affects 1 in 100 people." :conf:

There are guidelines on everything devised by the NPIA and ACPO. We do not know what training these officers recieved so cannot comment. However, to take a case to court there has to be a case to be heard.
There was and rightly or wrongly they were found to have broken several laws in their handling of the incident.
What the family recieves by way of compensation is not the issue here is it?

[Niamh.]

There are guidelines on everything devised by the NPIA and ACPO. We do not know what training these officers recieved so cannot comment. However, to take a case to court there has to be a case to be heard.
There was and rightly or wrongly they were found to have broken several laws in their handling of the incident.
What the family recieves by way of compensation is not the issue here is it?

And equally they have the same right as everybody else to appeal that decision, if they feel that the judgement was unfair.

[Kizzy]

And equally they have the same right as everybody else to appeal that decision, if they feel that the judgement was unfair.

Of course they do, everyone has that right. :)

[Livia]

Ammi stated yesterday she had nothing further to add to this thread.I'm surprised you referred to her work livia considering you accused me of being rude for that recently.
Last year I completed a degree in Public Services, I don't for one second mean that makes my view on this subject any more or less valid than the next persons.
This case highlights in my opinion that mistakes can and will be made, officers are not infallible.

You just can't help yourself...

I referred to Ammi's work ONLY because it is relevant to this thread. My work is not relevant to every thread and does not deserve comments like "you're not in the commons bar now, dear" which is the post I found to be rude. Politics is what I do. It is not who I am. My degree is in law.

[Kizzy]

You just can't help yourself...

I referred to Ammi's work ONLY because it is relevant to this thread. My work is not relevant to every thread and does not deserve comments like "you're not in the commons bar now, dear" which is the post I found to be rude. Politics is what I do. It is not who I am. My degree is in law.

I have the right to reply livia, I cannot be held responsible for your overreaction to comments i make.
Do you have any further comments regarding the issue in discussion or not?

[Ammi]

..I am no authority on autism..I have worked with two autistic children at different times and both were completely different in personality...although there are 'guidlines' and techniques in recognising when an autistic child is becoming anxious and failing to manager their emotions...like anyone else...each one is different..so 'managing' this..is a personal care plan to that particular child only. The techniques used are to try and prevent..what occurred at the pool in the first place...especially in an unfamiliar public place. Tbh..I have only ever been with a child 'at the beginning'..and fortunately have been able to 'calm' them.

I have had to 'restrain' a child from hurting themselves..and others, including myself...so I can imagine how the police officers must have felt about the 'situation' and what they should do..there wasn't really much they could do..other than get him to a safe place..and allow it to...subside.

The whole thing was a bit of a c*ck up..but imo..the c*ck up started before the police officers arrived..nobody had succeeded in containing or preventing it..certainly not the people who were trained to recognise the early anxieties...and yet..the police officers are criticised for 'not handling it properly'...when the only way to 'diffuse'..is to do it at the early signs..when the officers weren't present

I feel very sorry for the boy..this will have had a devastating effect on his condition..but I feel sorry for the officers too. One interesting thing, in this case..is that his parents have said they didn't want any compensation at all...what they wanted was awareness and training techniques for the police force. I find this interesting because..there was fault with his carers too...but they already have training..so I believe the parents when they say, they took it to court to 'raise awareness'...the police have never denied that they have no training in this area. Hopefully this case may change that. The judge, himself said they acted in a way..they thought was..safest..for everyone

[Livia]

I have the right to reply livia, I cannot be held responsible for your overreaction to comments i make.
Do you have any further comments regarding the issue in discussion or not?

I have nothing to say to you... no.

[Kizzy]

I have nothing to say to you... no.

Thankyou, maybe following the appeal there will be a different outcome we shall see :)

[Niamh.]

..I am no authority on autism..I have worked with two autistic children at different times and both were completely different in personality...although there are 'guidlines' and techniques in recognising when an autistic child is becoming anxious and failing to manager their emotions...like anyone else...each one is different..so 'managing' this..is a personal care plan to that particular child only. The techniques used are to try and prevent..what occurred at the pool in the first place...especially in an unfamiliar public place. Tbh..I have only ever been with a child 'at the beginning'..and fortunately have been able to 'calm' them.

I have had to 'restrain' a child from hurting themselves..and others, including myself...so I can imagine how the police officers must have felt about the 'situation' and what they should do..there wasn't really much they could do..other than get him to a safe place..and allow it to...subside.

The whole thing was a bit of a c*ck up..but imo..the c*ck up started before the police officers arrived..nobody had succeeded in containing or preventing it..certainly not the people who were trained to recognise the early anxieties...and yet..the police officers are criticised for 'not handling it properly'...when the only way to 'diffuse'..is to do it at the early signs..when the officers weren't present

I feel very sorry for the boy..this will have had a devastating effect on his condition..but I feel sorry for the officers too. One interesting thing, in this case..is that his parents have said they didn't want any compensation at all...what they wanted was awareness and training techniques for the police force. I find this interesting because..there was fault with his carers too...but they already have training..so I believe the parents when they say, they took it to court to 'raise awareness'...the police have never denied that they have no training in this area. Hopefully this case may change that. The judge, himself said they acted in a way..they thought was..safest..for everyone

That makes absolute and complete sense Ammi. Great post.

[Jessica.]

Absolutely disgusting. :mad:

[joeysteele]

..I am no authority on autism..I have worked with two autistic children at different times and both were completely different in personality...although there are 'guidlines' and techniques in recognising when an autistic child is becoming anxious and failing to manager their emotions...like anyone else...each one is different..so 'managing' this..is a personal care plan to that particular child only. The techniques used are to try and prevent..what occurred at the pool in the first place...especially in an unfamiliar public place. Tbh..I have only ever been with a child 'at the beginning'..and fortunately have been able to 'calm' them.

I have had to 'restrain' a child from hurting themselves..and others, including myself...so I can imagine how the police officers must have felt about the 'situation' and what they should do..there wasn't really much they could do..other than get him to a safe place..and allow it to...subside.

The whole thing was a bit of a c*ck up..but imo..the c*ck up started before the police officers arrived..nobody had succeeded in containing or preventing it..certainly not the people who were trained to recognise the early anxieties...and yet..the police officers are criticised for 'not handling it properly'...when the only way to 'diffuse'..is to do it at the early signs..when the officers weren't present

I feel very sorry for the boy..this will have had a devastating effect on his condition..but I feel sorry for the officers too. One interesting thing, in this case..is that his parents have said they didn't want any compensation at all...what they wanted was awareness and training techniques for the police force. I find this interesting because..there was fault with his carers too...but they already have training..so I believe the parents when they say, they took it to court to 'raise awareness'...the police have never denied that they have no training in this area. Hopefully this case may change that. The judge, himself said they acted in a way..they thought was..safest..for everyone

Brilliant post, says everything as to this issue really.

[Kizzy]

Shackled in the back of a police van is not a safe place,and due to the severity of his condition the boy suffered post traumatic stress.
I am playing devils advocate here, if it was my child what would i do?
Much as i am fully supportive of, and have worked alongside the police on many projects i have to say i would have done the same. Not for any kind of monetary gain but as ammi said to raise awareness.
The reaction of the Met to refuse an apology surprises me, if they do not have the required training then officers are vulnerable to critism and prosecution.

Lets not forget this is not a criminal, but a child, a disabled child.
Would it not have been possible, with the help of pool staff to contain him in the shallow area of the pool where the threat of drowning was minimal, untill his legal guardians arrived?

[Livia]

Brilliant post, says everything as to this issue really.

It is a brilliant post, joey. Informed and balanced.

[Vicky.]

..I am no authority on autism..I have worked with two autistic children at different times and both were completely different in personality...although there are 'guidlines' and techniques in recognising when an autistic child is becoming anxious and failing to manager their emotions...like anyone else...each one is different..so 'managing' this..is a personal care plan to that particular child only. The techniques used are to try and prevent..what occurred at the pool in the first place...especially in an unfamiliar public place. Tbh..I have only ever been with a child 'at the beginning'..and fortunately have been able to 'calm' them.

I have had to 'restrain' a child from hurting themselves..and others, including myself...so I can imagine how the police officers must have felt about the 'situation' and what they should do..there wasn't really much they could do..other than get him to a safe place..and allow it to...subside.

The whole thing was a bit of a c*ck up..but imo..the c*ck up started before the police officers arrived..nobody had succeeded in containing or preventing it..certainly not the people who were trained to recognise the early anxieties...and yet..the police officers are criticised for 'not handling it properly'...when the only way to 'diffuse'..is to do it at the early signs..when the officers weren't present

I feel very sorry for the boy..this will have had a devastating effect on his condition..but I feel sorry for the officers too. One interesting thing, in this case..is that his parents have said they didn't want any compensation at all...what they wanted was awareness and training techniques for the police force. I find this interesting because..there was fault with his carers too...but they already have training..so I believe the parents when they say, they took it to court to 'raise awareness'...the police have never denied that they have no training in this area. Hopefully this case may change that. The judge, himself said they acted in a way..they thought was..safest..for everyone
Thanks for this Ammi.

I guess I look at things from what I personally know about autism (which is very little really). My best mate when growing up has aspergers. And tbh it didnt seem to affect her at all...sure she did some things that I considered 'odd' like sitting in puddles when it was freezing just because she felt like it, and to the extremes...jumping off durham bridge because she fancied swimming with the ducks..but in general she just seemed the same as you and me. I didnt even think when reading this that there are obviously different degrees of autism that affect people in different ways :S

[Kizzy]

This is the Independants report from yesterday.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mets-restraint-on-autistic-boy-was-not-justified-7570357.html

After reading this article im guessing ...only my opinion .. the case was linked to 'reasonable force' which has to be in every case 'proportional'