Was Ghandi Racist?

[Jesus.]

“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” – Gandhi

Gandhi was a racist.

[MTVN]

Gandhi was a racist.

He might have said some racist things, but that was hardly unusual considering the time and circumstances he lived in

[Jesus.]

He might have said some racist things, but that was hardly unusual considering the time and circumstances he lived in

I accept it wasn't unusual for the times, but his hatred of black people flies in the face of the public image. Some of his quotes are genius, but quotes are the worst way of judging a persons life in my opinion.

I was just throwing it out there, as not many people will have been aware of the point that I made. If someone goes to google on the back of my comment, then that seems like a good thing.

[MTVN]

I accept it wasn't unusual for the times, but his hatred of black people flies in the face of the public image. Some of his quotes are genius, but quotes are the worst way of judging a persons life in my opinion.

I was just throwing it out there, as not many people will have been aware of the point that I made. If someone goes to google on the back of my comment, then that seems like a good thing.

Fair enough, I don't think he should just be idolised uncritically but I don't think he should be simply branded a racist either (not saying you were doing that) and have all of what he achieved disregarded

[mrlecturer]

I accept it wasn't unusual for the times, but his hatred of black people flies in the face of the public image. Some of his quotes are genius, but quotes are the worst way of judging a persons life in my opinion.

I was just throwing it out there, as not many people will have been aware of the point that I made. If someone goes to google on the back of my comment, then that seems like a good thing.

Yeyyy :dazzler:

another Google-backed argument. Google also tells me the world will end in 2012, damnit, its the year of my graduation :nono:

[Jesus.]

Yeyyy :dazzler:

another Google-backed argument. Google also tells me the world will end in 2012, damnit, its the year of my graduation :nono:

I hope that university of yours is free, otherwise I'd ask for my money back. It's not a google-backed argument, it's saying that if people go to google (to look into it) on the back of the point I made, then that is a good thing.

There is a difference, and one which someone at University really should be able to understand.

As this is a quotes thread, how about this one for you:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

[mrlecturer]

I hope that university of yours is free, otherwise I'd ask for my money back. It's not a google-backed argument, it's saying that if people go to google (to look into it) on the back of the point I made, then that is a good thing.

There is a difference, and one which someone at University really should be able to understand.

As this is a quotes thread, how about this one for you:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

I wish you had read something on Gandhi being a racist , before blatantly finger-pointing and labelling him into a racist. His use of the word kaafir (which he used in South Africa to describe the Black population), although not a derogatory term in Arabic, is one of the reasons why the label of racist has been thrown on him. Since you seem to be a fan of google, i'll let you search what kaafir means, in its purest form, not any connotations.

I'm hoping you know his publications on the inequalities African-Americans faced in America. I'm also hoping you know how Gandhi, and as a matter of fact, India, was close friends with W.E.B. DuBois? (Again, i'll wait for you to google that name and Jawaharlal Nehru, he too condemned the injustices in America). In fact, DuBois, himself, wrote about Gandhi! Wow, a prominent African-American historian, writer, fighter against racism, writing about the life of Gandhi, shocking -surely, one of 'em's a racist.

My point is, yes, though Gandhi's life in South Africa is clouded with accusations of racism, the internet's a vast world (google being one of its offspring), and if you had bothered to research just a wee bit more, you would've found plenty of interesting reads- that would've prevented any premature and false judgement coming from you.

I say, if you're using google, use it wisely :blush:

[Vanessa]

I wish you had read something on Gandhi being a racist , before blatantly finger-pointing and labelling him into a racist. His use of the word kaafir (which he used in South Africa to describe the Black population), although not a derogatory term in Arabic, is one of the reasons why the label of racist has been thrown on him. Since you seem to be a fan of google, i'll let you search what kaafir means, in its purest form, not any connotations.

I'm hoping you know his publications on the inequalities African-Americans faced in America. I'm also hoping you know how Gandhi, and as a matter of fact, India, was close friends with W.E.B. DuBois? (Again, i'll wait for you to google that name and Jawaharlal Nehru, he too condemned the injustices in America). In fact, DuBois, himself, wrote about Gandhi! Wow, a prominent African-American historian, writer, fighter against racism, writing about the life of Gandhi, shocking -surely, one of 'em's a racist.

My point is, yes, though Gandhi's life in South Africa is clouded with accusations of racism, the internet's a vast world (google being one of its offspring), and if you had bothered to research just a wee bit more, you would've found plenty of interesting reads- that would've prevented any premature and judgement and false judgement coming from you.

I say, if you're using google, use it wisely :blush:

I really admire Gandhi Non Violence. :)

[mrlecturer]

I really admire Gandhi Non Violence. :)

oh Vanessa, :hug:

[Vanessa]

oh Vanessa, :hug:

I've seen a movie about him once. It was amazing! Really inspiring. :)

[Jesus.]

I wish you had read something on Gandhi being a racist , before blatantly finger-pointing and labelling him into a racist. His use of the word kaafir (which he used in South Africa to describe the Black population), although not a derogatory term in Arabic, is one of the reasons why the label of racist has been thrown on him. Since you seem to be a fan of google, i'll let you search what kaafir means, in its purest form, not any connotations.

I'm hoping you know his publications on the inequalities African-Americans faced in America. I'm also hoping you know how Gandhi, and as a matter of fact, India, was close friends with W.E.B. DuBois? (Again, i'll wait for you to google that name and Jawaharlal Nehru, he too condemned the injustices in America). In fact, DuBois, himself, wrote about Gandhi! Wow, a prominent African-American historian, writer, fighter against racism, writing about the life of Gandhi, shocking -surely, one of 'em's a racist.

My point is, yes, though Gandhi's life in South Africa is clouded with accusations of racism, the internet's a vast world (google being one of its offspring), and if you had bothered to research just a wee bit more, you would've found plenty of interesting reads- that would've prevented any premature and false judgement coming from you.

I say, if you're using google, use it wisely :blush:

Well didn't you just get infinitely more interesting.

Firstly, your premise that my comment is based from google is simply false and unfounded. In order for that to be true, I would have to see names on the internet and go to google with the question "is person x a racist?" It makes no sense.

Gandhi was used by many civil rights leaders, most notably, Martin Luther King. I'm not sure what your point is exactly, but I don't need to read many books written about him in this instance, when his own words speak so loudly.

"Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought among themselves."

“Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.”

With any historical figure, there is a debate over intentions/actions etc, but where we have their actual words, I think it's only fair of doing them the courtesy of accepting what they say on face value.

I know you are a Muslim, so I'll tread carefully with my next point, I have an ex-girlfriend (Muslim) whose family were from Pakistan originally, and she used to call me Kaffir as a playful insult. She told me it meant infidel or non believer, and was very much a derogatory term when used in it's original context.

Maybe you can enlighten me on your description of the word Kaffir?

[Vanessa]

I don't think he was. :nono:

[Jesus.]

I don't think he was. :nono:

That's it then. Thread closed.

[Niamh.]

:laugh2:

I have to say I'm finding all this very interesting to read, I'd never heard anything about him being racist before

[Vanessa]

That's it then. Thread closed.

Just my opinion. :idc:

[Vanessa]

:laugh2:

I have to say I'm finding all this very interesting to read, I'd never heard anything about him being racist before

Me neither! :suspect:

[Niamh.]

Me neither! :suspect:

Doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't though

[Vanessa]

Doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't though

Yes, but it doesn't sound like him. :suspect:

[arista]

It was Another Time
way back then.

[Vanessa]

It was Another Time
way back then.

Exactly. That's true. :)

[Benjamin]

Yes, but it doesn't sound like him. :suspect:

You mean, it doesn't sound like what you have been told about him in the past.

[Vanessa]

You mean, it doesn't sound like what you have been told about him in the past.

Well, i've never heard of it. :confused:

[Benjamin]

Well, i've never heard of it. :confused:

My point. You say it doesn't sound like him, but you really mean it doesn't sound like what you have been told about him.

[mrlecturer]

Well didn't you just get infinitely more interesting.

Gandhi was used by many civil rights leaders, most notably, Martin Luther King. I'm not sure what your point is exactly, but I don't need to read many books written about him in this instance, when his own words speak so loudly.

"Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought among themselves."

“Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.”

With any historical figure, there is a debate over intentions/actions etc, but where we have their actual words, I think it's only fair of doing them the courtesy of accepting what they say on face value.

I know you are a Muslim, so I'll tread carefully with my next point, I have an ex-girlfriend (Muslim) whose family were from Pakistan originally, and she used to call me Kaffir as a playful insult. She told me it meant infidel or non believer, and was very much a derogatory term when used in it's original context.

Maybe you can enlighten me on your description of the word Kaffir?

If he's being used as an example of civil justice by African-Americans such as MLK, then does that not undermine the initial claim that he was a racist? Or were MLK and DeBois merely overlooking that? How? If the claim was true, I don't think you would've found a single, African-American, proponent of Gandhi.

Your ex was from Pakistan? Urdu is the official language (one that I also speak) with English, and though the language has adopted many Arabic words, some do not have the same meaning. I've also studied Islamic History, and the word kafir was first mentioned in Medina circa 630 C.E., to describe those who did not submit to the divine message. In essence, it meant - non-believer. People in the city were categorized in three groups (Muslims (who submitted), Kafirs (who did not), Munafiq (who were hypocrites, not true believers). But Islamic Revivalists in the 19-20th century started using the word it in a different light, further compounded by the apartheid in South Africa (where the word was as bad as the N word).

So yes, the word since the start of Islam has continuously evolved, taking a more negative meaning. By Gandhi's time the word was still commonplace, but still did not carry the venom it did till after his death. I will say though Gandhi's views on racial/caste segregation did change when he moved from South Africa. I'm doing a double major, in political science and history, and I've read Gandhi more than a hundred times over 4 years, but I still can't call him a racist - because that would directly contradict his achievements in India. :joker:

here's my quote : "I believe in a long, prolonged, derangement of the senses in order to obtain the unknown." -Jim Morrison.

[Marc]

I knew the guy, massive lad.

Never racist once in his life.

[Niamh.]

You don't need a quote Mr Lec, I've given you your own thread for this topic

[mrlecturer]

You don't need a quote Mr Lec, I've given you your own thread for this topic

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_louzplh2UZ1qd9x6to1_500.gif

[Vanessa]

If he's being used as an example of civil justice by African-Americans such as MLK, then does that not undermine the initial claim that he was a racist? Or were MLK and DeBois merely overlooking that? How? If the claim was true, I don't think you would've found a single, African-American, proponent of Gandhi.

Your ex was from Pakistan? Urdu is the official language (one that I also speak) with English, and though the language has adopted many Arabic words, some do not have the same meaning. I've also studied Islamic History, and the word kafir was first mentioned in Medina circa 630 C.E., to describe those who did not submit to the divine message. In essence, it meant - non-believer. People in the city were categorized in three groups (Muslims (who submitted), Kafirs (who did not), Munafiq (who were hypocrites, not true believers). But Islamic Revivalists in the 19-20th century started using the word it in a different light, further compounded by the apartheid in South Africa (where the word was as bad as the N word).

So yes, the word since the start of Islam has continuously evolved, taking a more negative meaning. By Gandhi's time the word was still commonplace, but still did not carry the venom it did till after his death. I will say though Gandhi's views on racial/caste segregation did change when he moved from South Africa. I'm doing a double major, in political science and history, and I've read Gandhi more than a hundred times over 4 years, but I still can't call him a racist - because that would directly contradict his achievements in India. :joker:

here's my quote : "I believe in a long, prolonged, derangement of the senses in order to obtain the unknown." -Jim Morrison.

I love Jim Morrison! :amazed: A friend is someone who gives you total freedom to be yourself. :lovedup:

[Vanessa]

You don't need a quote Mr Lec, I've given you your own thread for this topic

That's true! I keep forgetting! :joker:

[mrlecturer]

I love Jim Morrison! :amazed: A friend is someone who gives you total freedom to be yourself. :lovedup:

haha, Jim Morrison was amazing. Interesting fact: both Jim and Gandhi have had sips of their urine :joker:

[Vanessa]

haha, Jim Morrison was amazing. Interesting fact: both Jim and Gandhi have had sips of their urine :joker:

Really? I didn't know that! :conf2::tongue:

[Jesus.]

If he's being used as an example of civil justice by African-Americans such as MLK, then does that not undermine the initial claim that he was a racist? Or were MLK and DeBois merely overlooking that? How? If the claim was true, I don't think you would've found a single, African-American, proponent of Gandhi.

Your ex was from Pakistan? Urdu is the official language (one that I also speak) with English, and though the language has adopted many Arabic words, some do not have the same meaning. I've also studied Islamic History, and the word kafir was first mentioned in Medina circa 630 C.E., to describe those who did not submit to the divine message. In essence, it meant - non-believer. People in the city were categorized in three groups (Muslims (who submitted), Kafirs (who did not), Munafiq (who were hypocrites, not true believers). But Islamic Revivalists in the 19-20th century started using the word it in a different light, further compounded by the apartheid in South Africa (where the word was as bad as the N word).

So yes, the word since the start of Islam has continuously evolved, taking a more negative meaning. By Gandhi's time the word was still commonplace, but still did not carry the venom it did till after his death. I will say though Gandhi's views on racial/caste segregation did change when he moved from South Africa. I'm doing a double major, in political science and history, and I've read Gandhi more than a hundred times over 4 years, but I still can't call him a racist - because that would directly contradict his achievements in India. :joker:

here's my quote : "I believe in a long, prolonged, derangement of the senses in order to obtain the unknown." -Jim Morrison.

I would guess it's because they weren't fully versed in his opinions. There was nothing for them to search the phrase "was Gandhi a racist" on.

I appreciate your historic perspective on the origin of "Kaffir." However, I don't think you are being totally forthright in the foundation of the word within a blossoming new religion, called Islam. The Koran says some pretty dark things about us Kaffirs, and the crime for becoming a Kaffir after leaving Islam (apostasy) is death. If Kaffir doesn't have negative connotations within Arabic, then why the need for death?

I've never heard anyone describe the use of the word Kaffir (pronounced Kaffa to S. Africans) as unoffensive in those times. It was a well known racial slur.

Just to touch, once again, upon your point about why would civil rights leaders using Gandhi as a good role model, when he wasn't quite as he was made out to be(I'm not saying he didn't achieve some remarkable things), then one might ask exactly the same thing about the prophet Mohammed, Moses, Abraham etc.

When people promote individuals as important, they tend to get a rather fond whitewashing (excuse the racist pun) from history.

[Jesus.]

MrLec/Vanessa

Have you tried the chat threads?

[mrlecturer]

I would guess it's because they weren't fully versed in his opinions. There was nothing for them to search the phrase "was Gandhi a racist" on.

I appreciate your historic perspective on the origin of "Kaffir." However, I don't think you are being totally forthright in the foundation of the word within a blossoming new religion, called Islam. The Koran says some pretty dark things about us Kaffirs, and the crime for becoming a Kaffir after leaving Islam (apostasy) is death. If Kaffir doesn't have negative connotations within Arabic, then why the need for death?

I've never heard anyone describe the use of the word Kaffir (pronounced Kaffa to S. Africans) as unoffensive in those times. It was a well known racial slur.

Just to touch, once again, upon your point about why would civil rights leaders using Gandhi as a good role model, when he wasn't quite as he was made out to be(I'm not saying he didn't achieve some remarkable things), then one might ask exactly the same thing about the prophet Mohammed, Moses, Abraham etc.

When people promote individuals as important, they tend to get a rather fond whitewashing (excuse the racist pun) from history.

Too bad MLK didn't have google :(

I disagree that it had always been a racial slur. In fact, Encyclopaedia Britannica from 1911, in pages 627–629, continuously uses kafir :)


Again, generalization at its best. "The Koran says pretty dark things about Kaffirs." Lovely. I thought a little Islamic history in my earlier post would help you understand who kaffirs really were. But I guess I didn't make it clear enough.

Pagans. They were the first, and according to the Quran, only kaffirs that were a direct threat to the rise of Islam. Why? Cause they were occupying Mecca (Islamic holy city), simple as. Now go back to the verse where you posited the notion that the 'Quran has some nasty things to say about us,' and read that in the light of 7th century pagans. Doesn't really make much sense, right? Exactly. Which leads to my next point.

I'll give you my honest opinion. Again, studied it for years, but to say that the Quran promotes peace is wrong (or whatever Muhammad Ali claimed). The Quran is merely a book of signs, it was never compiled chronologically, a lot of it is vague, a lot is contradictory. For example, there are 4 verses on non-Muslims, two encourage tolerance and unity, the other two call for a more aggressive-stance. Each chapter, each verse was compiled at different stages in the life of Muhammad - and each revelation was related to the events Muhammad and his people were experiencing. Then again, to be involved in this entire debate would be never-ending.

But you get my point. One can never deduce that Gandhi was a racist, or the Quran had nasty things to say about Kafirs, especially if we are not acquainted with its context.

[Vanessa]

MrLec/Vanessa

Have you tried the chat threads?

Have you? :idc:

[mrlecturer]

MrLec/Vanessa

Have you tried the chat threads?

I can't find it, a bump would help. Thanks :)

[Vanessa]

I can't find it, a bump would help. Thanks :)

I can't find it as well! Which one is it? The Capital one? :conf:

[MTVN]

Yeah the Capitol (http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199266) or Mollie's Chambers (http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193865) are the main two chat threads, or there's also the Lounge (http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5085642)

[mrlecturer]

I understand your point Jesus. This saint-like promotion does no one any good. Cause it's simply not true. Like we don't hear Martin Luther King beating up White prostitutes? But it's true, it happened according to the FBI. :D

[Vanessa]

Yeah the Capitol or Mollie's Chambers are the main two chat threads, or there's also the Lounge (http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5085642)

Oh thank you! I'll check them out! :wavey:

[Vanessa]

I understand your point Jesus. This saint-like promotion does no one any good. Cause it's simply not true. Like we don't hear Martin Luther King beating up White prostitutes? But it's true, it happened according to the FBI. :D

Really? I didn't know that! That's quite shocking! :o

[mrlecturer]

Really? I didn't know that! That's quite shocking! :o

haha yup, and he plagiarized while in uni :joker:

[Vanessa]

haha yup, and he plagiarized while in uni :joker:

How do you know? Is it on google? :conf:

[Brother Leon]

It's well known Ghandi thought black people were inferior. Many black South Africans will tell you this.

[Vanessa]

It's well known Ghandi thought black people were inferior. Many black South Africans will tell you this.

I'm really shocked by this! :o

[mrlecturer]

How do you know? Is it on google? :conf:

http://www.martinlutherking.org/thebeast.html

we should rename this threat : Legends Exposed :joker:

[Jesus.]

I'm really shocked by this! :o

Have you read this thread?

That can't be a bolt out of the blue to you, surely?

[Niamh.]

Have you read this thread?

That can't be a bolt out of the blue to you, surely?

:laugh2:

[mrlecturer]

It's well known Ghandi thought black people were inferior. Many black South Africans will tell you this.

Yeah by saying Blacks didn't have the right to travel on trams.

[Vanessa]

http://www.martinlutherking.org/thebeast.html

we should rename this threat : Legends Exposed :joker:

This is a great thread! I like reading all the different points of view! :)

[Vanessa]

Have you read this thread?

That can't be a bolt out of the blue to you, surely?

Was Gandhi racist? It was a question, not a fact. Please read the title of the thread carefully. :idc:

[Brother Leon]

However, alot of people also think Marcus Garvey was racist when he is seen as abit of a hero by others(myself included)Everyone has a different view on racism I guess.

[Vanessa]

However, alot of people also think Marcus Garvey was racist when he is seen as abit of a hero by others(myself included)Everyone has a different view on racism I guess.

I think you're right. :)

[Livia]

Gandhi was a racist.

Whatever happened to him? He made one good movie and no one ever heard of him again.

[Vanessa]

Whatever happened to him? He made one good movie and no one ever heard of him again.

:laugh2:

[arista]

Whatever happened to him? He made one good movie and no one ever heard of him again.


Yes.


but all this is about
was 60 or more years back
so at the time he was Not a Racist


That the simple point here.

[Livia]

Yes.


but all this is about
was 60 or more years back
so at the time he was Not a Racist


That the simple point here.

Yeah, I was just trying to lighten the mood.

[Jesus.]

Yeah, I was just trying to lighten the mood.

Come on, Livia, get with the program. Arista was just explaining that racism was only invented within the last 60 years.

Feel the force























Unless it's black.

[Roy Mars III]

his opinion was not abnormal for the time, doesn't change the fact that it was by definition racist. Many great men and women from the past were though, doesn't change the impact they had

[Livia]

Come on, Livia, get with the program. Arista was just explaining that racism was only invented within the last 60 years.

Feel the force























Unless it's black.


Ahhh right. That'll be a great comfort to a lot of people.

[arista]

Come on, Livia, get with the program. Arista was just explaining that racism was only invented within the last 60 years.

Feel the force

Unless it's black.



No what I am saying is
you are going back in time
it was nothing like todays PC
world.

[Jesus.]

No what I am saying is
you are going back in time
it was nothing like todays PC
world.

So racism is just about the PC brigade trying to ruin everyones fun?

[arista]

So racism is just about the PC brigade trying to ruin everyones fun?


No Racism is a Problem.
but not the same as 60 years or more ago.

[lostalex]

Ghandi would demand that Martin Luther King was deported from his country, so YES Ghandi was racist.

how fun would it be to see MLK and Ghandi have a hunger strike against eachother though!!! now THAT would be good TV.

I'd put my money on MLK. USA USA USA!!!!

lol.

[joeysteele]

I knew the guy, massive lad.

Never racist once in his life.

Marc,:hugesmile: I love your humour.

On topic though, I personally don't think he was racist,from what I have read and learned as to him but I couldn't say for sure 100% obviously.

[lostalex]

Marc,:hugesmile: I love your humour.

On topic though, I personally don't think he was racist,from what I have read and learned as to him but I couldn't say for sure 100% obviously.

he was definitely racist. that doesn't mean he was a bad person though. All the founding fathers of the US were racist, that doesn't mean they were bad though.

I'm sure everyone here has parents that have said sexist, or homophopbic or racist things, that doesn't mean they are evil people.

Being racist doesn't automatically make you a bad person.

There are plenty of really good and kind and awesome racist people in the world. you can't define someone's worth based on just one aspect.