Log in

View Full Version : Norway's 'Halden' is most humane prison in the world


Jack_
20-05-2012, 11:40 AM
To all of those on here who constantly moan about our justice system being too 'weak' and 'soft', how about this?

Inside Halden, the most humane prison in the world

Amelia Gentleman visits Halden, the high-security jail in Norway where every cell has a flatscreen TV, an en-suite shower and fluffy, white towels

Halden is one of Norway’s highest-security jails, holding rapists, murderers and paedophiles. Photographs: Gughi Fassino

Halden prison smells of freshly brewed coffee. It hits you in the workshop areas, lingers in the games rooms and in the communal apartment-style areas where prisoners live together in groups of eight. This much coffee makes you hungry, so a couple of hours after lunch the guards on Unit A (a quiet, separated wing where sex offenders are held for their own protection) bring inmates a tall stack of steaming, heart-shaped waffles and pots of jam, which they set down on a checked tablecloth and eat together, whiling away the afternoon.

The other remarkable thing is how quiet the prison is. There isn't any of the enraged, persistent banging of doors you hear in British prisons, not least because the prisoners are not locked up much during the day. The governor, Are Høidal, is surprised when I ask about figures for prisoner attacks on guards, staff hospitalisations, guard restraints on prisoners, or prisoner-on-prisoner assaults. I explain that British prisons are required to log this data, and that the last prison I visited had a problem with prisoners melting screws into plastic pens, to use as stabbing weapons; he looks startled, says there isn't much violence here and he can't remember the last time there was a fight.

Halden is one of Norway's highest-security jails, holding rapists, murderers and paedophiles. Since it opened two years ago, at a cost of 1.3bn Norwegian kroner (£138m), it has acquired a reputation as the world's most humane prison. It is the flagship of the Norwegian justice system, where the focus is on rehabilitation rather than punishment.

There was early speculation that Anders Breivik, currently on trial in Oslo for the murder of 77 people, might end up here, given that there are few high-security options across Norway, but that now looks unlikely, at least for the first chunk of his sentence. If he is judged to be sane, he will probably remain in isolation in the Ila prison where he is currently being held, a former Nazi concentration camp with a less utopian vision. However, the underlying ethos of Halden prison gives an insight into Norwegian attitudes towards justice, one that is under scrutiny as the country assesses how to deal with Breivik.

When Halden opened, it attracted attention globally for its design and its relative splendour. Set in a forest, the prison blocks are a model of minimalist chic. Høidal lifts down from his office wall a framed award for best interior design, a prize given in recognition of the stylishness of the white laminated tables, tangerine leather sofas and elegant, skinny chairs dotted all over the place. At times, the environment feels more Scandinavian boutique hotel than class A prison.

The hotel comparison comes up frequently. Høidal is just back from visiting a British prison and had to stay a night in a hotel off Oxford Street. Happily for the hotel, he can't remember the name, but he noticed his room was certainly smaller and probably less nice than the cells in Halden. Every Halden cell has a flatscreen television, its own toilet (which, unlike standard UK prison cells, also has a door) and a shower, which comes with large, soft, white towels. Prisoners have their own fridges, cupboards and desks in bright new pine, white magnetic pinboards and huge, unbarred windows overlooking mossy forest scenery.

"There was much focus on the design," Høidal says. "We wanted it to be light and positive."

Obviously the hotel comparison is a stupid one, since the problem with being in prison, unlike staying in a hotel, is that you cannot leave. Even if the prison compound has more in common with a modern, rural university campus, with young and enthusiastic staff (who push themselves around the compound on fashionable, silver two-wheel scooters), the key point about it is that hidden behind the silver birch trees is a thick, tall concrete wall, impossible to scale.

Given the constraints of needing to keep 245 high-risk people incarcerated, creating an environment that was as unprisonlike as possible was a priority for Høidal and the prison's architects. "The architecture is not like other prisons," Høidal says. "We felt it shouldn't look like a prison. We wanted to create normality. If you can't see the wall, this could be anything, anywhere. The life behind the walls should be as much like life outside the walls as possible."

This principle is governed in part by a key feature of the Norwegian sentencing system, which has no life sentences and stipulates a maximum term of 21 years.

"Everyone who is imprisoned inside Norwegian prisons will be released – maybe not Breivik, but everyone else will go back to society. We look at what kind of neighbour you want to have when they come out. If you stay in a box for a few years, then you are not a good person when you come out. If you treat them hard… well, we don't think that treating them hard will make them a better man. We don't think about revenge in the Norwegian prison system. We have much more focus on rehabilitation. It is a long time since we had fights between inmates. It is this building that makes softer people."

Prisoners are unlocked at 7.30am and locked up for the night at 8.30pm. During the day they are encouraged to attend work and educational activities, with a daily payment of 53 kroner (£5.60) for those who leave their cell. "If you have very few activities, your prisoners become more aggressive," Høidal says. "If they are sitting all day, I don't think that is so good for a person. If they are busy, then they are happier. We try not to let them get institutionalised."


‘We don’t think about revenge in the Norwegian prison system,' says governore Are Høidal, 'we have much more focus on rehabilitation.’
The role of the prison guard is very different from that in the UK. While officers in Britain get a few weeks' training, Norwegians will have completed a two-year university course, with an emphasis on human rights, ethics and the law. At Halden there are 340 staff members (including teachers and healthcare workers) to the 245 male inmates. Staff are encouraged to mingle with inmates, talking to them, counselling them, working with them to combat their criminality. A great deal of attention is given to making sure people have homes and jobs to go to when they leave, and that family ties are maintained. (There is a well-stocked chalet-style house for prisoners to receive overnight visits from their families.) "We have many more prison officers than prisoners. They are talking about why they are here, what problems got them into this criminality. Our role is to help them and to guard them. The prison governor role in Norway is unique. They are meant to be coach, motivator, a role model for the inmates."

The regime is expensive – approximately 3,000 kroner (£320) a night, compared with around 2,000 (£213) at the more basic, older Norwegian institutions, such as the Oslo prison where inmates are often locked up for 23 out of 24 hours, but it is cheaper than Ila, where the guard count is higher and the cost 4,000 kroner (£426) a night. A year in Halden costs the state around £116,000, while the average cost of a place in the UK is £45,000.

Cost is only one of the reasons prison reformers in the UK don't think there's any prospect of the Halden model being adopted here. We have double the number of prisoners that Norway has (around 140 per 100,000 in England and Wales, to Norway's 74.8), and having a smaller prison population makes things simpler for the Norwegian state. Halden is so new, there are no figures yet for how swiftly and frequently prisoners drift back into prison after their release, but nationwide Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in Europe, just 20% after two years, compared with around 50% in England. Partly that's down to the prison system, but it's also the result of a much better welfare system. There is little popular appetite for softening the prison regime in this country. The justice secretary, Kenneth Clarke, may have stated, "It is just very, very bad value for taxpayers' money to keep warehousing them in overcrowded prisons where most of them get toughened up", but his early commitment to tackling rising prison numbers was not well-received.

The large amount of money and thought lavished on inmates at Halden doesn't stop them (politely) expressing their dislike of the place and their desire to leave as soon as possible. An elderly prisoner, with terminal cancer, serving a long sentence for drug smuggling, is in the craft room, crocheting a toy teddy bear with no enthusiasm for his task. He concedes that Halden smells better than other prisons he has been in, because it doesn't have the mildewed odour of the old buildings, or the deep stench of bodies squeezed together in close confinement. "The only thing that is nice is the building," he says. "People think that you are staying in a five-star hotel, but prison is prison. They lock you up."

Kent, a 43-year-old office manager serving a three-year sentence for a violent attack, is sitting in the prison's mixing studio, where prisoners record music and make a programme that is broadcast monthly by the local radio station. He has formed a band with three other inmates and two guards, and performs regularly for fellow inmates. Leaning back in his swivel chair, sipping at his coffee and fiddling with his red baseball cap, he admits he's enjoying being able to focus on his music, but says, "The Halden prison has been compared to the finest hotel. That's the impression my friends and parents have from reading the papers. It is not true. The real issue is freedom, which is taken away from you. That is the worst thing that can happen to you. When the door slams at night, you're sat there in a small room. That's always a tough time."

He has children aged 10 and 12. "I think about them 24/7. I speak to them three times a week for 30 minutes, but there is so much to say, so much I need to be doing for them. I think I'm never going to commit another crime. Freedom means so much to me."

There is some annoyance from staff at the focus on the buildings, rather than on the principle of rehabilitation that drives the prison. "One politician when it opened said, 'I could live here for a year, no problem.' But he was in the cell for two minutes," says Janne Offerdal, who teaches English to the inmates (mainly to foreign nationals caught smuggling drugs into the country; the Norwegian prisoners all speak impeccable English). "They compare the facilities with the elderly prisons. But if you are building a new building now, you wouldn't build an old one."

Høidal is bemused by the popular fascination with the prisoners' flatscreen TVs, pointing out that it's now impossible to buy the older models. "I don't call the cells luxurious. It's 10 square metres, a toilet, a shower, that's all."

No one is thrilled to arrive here. The reception officer explains that the most positive reaction is one of relief. When they are brought in, "some of them are crying," he says. "They don't know what they're going to do with their dog. There are aggressive people who are high on drugs, or withdrawing from drugs, which is not always easy to deal with. It's only the older guys who've been in other prisons who are happy to be in Halden."

As we walk around the compound, an inmate comes up to ask Høidal, "Can we have a swimming pool?" He laughs, and remembers the shock of a Russian prison governor who visited recently and was horrified to see that the inmates didn't stand to attention when Høidal came past but instead clustered around him, seizing the chance to list their complaints.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/5/17/1337251379953/Halden-prison-interior-de-008.jpg

Halden has an award for its interior design. At times, the environment feels more Scandinavian boutique hotel than class A prison.

There are no plans for a swimming pool, but Høidal does want to make a jogging track through the woods, and a young sports teacher (who is working on specialised programmes for recovering drug addicts) says he hopes to start rock climbing lessons in the summer.

I wonder if it's a good idea to teach inmates how to scale rock faces, but he responds with hurt amazement. "There would be no security risk. I wouldn't be teaching them how to escape." So far there have been no escapes, or attempts.

The sports centre is focused on team sports, especially football. There are a few bits of training equipment, but no weights, because Høidal doesn't approve of them: "I see the negative of focusing too much on muscles. It is a violent thing."

The inmates tell Høidal they're annoyed by recent changes to the routine, but they are respectful when they address him. He listens politely, agrees that in prison minor irritations can become major frustrations, but remarks that people outside the building would laugh at the trivial nature of their complaints.

In the winter, when the compound was covered in snow, one of the inmates went outside and stamped around for a while. Looking out from the staff canteen later, guards noticed he'd written Help Me with his footprints. A UK prisoner might set fire to his cell; even these appeals for attention are done in the most non-aggressive manner.

I see only one piece of prisoner graffiti, a rather half-hearted scribble on an A4 printed notice (to avoid causing permanent damage): "**** the rules" (only the pen has stopped working, so all that's really legible is **** the r). Otherwise, there is the prison-sanctioned graffiti, the recurring logo of a convict in striped uniform, apparently about to hurl his ball and chain to the wind, which decorates the yard walls and toilet doors, and was commissioned at considerable expense from the Norwegian graffiti artist Dolk, out of the prison's 6m kroner (£640,000) art budget.

Huge, blown-up photographs of daffodils, Parisian street scenes or Moroccan tiles cover the corridors. Høidal doesn't have a clear answer to whether the pictures have a positive effect on inmate behaviour, but says that whenever a state building is opened in Norway, 1% of the construction budget goes on art.

One wild-eyed ex-amphetamine addict slaps Høidal on the back, tells him he is a good man, but says he misses his old prison, Oslo, where he served an earlier sentence. Drugs were more of a problem in that jail, he adds wistfully. Høidal agrees that the style of Halden prison, with the relentless presence of guards wanting to talk and help inmates, does not suit everyone. "Some people don't like them being around all the time. If you want drugs, then you prefer Oslo prison."

Another prisoner, living in the relative seclusion of Unit A, where he is a year into a sentence for sexual abuse of a minor, pays tribute to the humanity of the prison staff (as opposed to that of the fellow prisoners, who, when they found out what he was in prison for, announced they were going to dismember him). "The people who work here don't look down on you," he says. Compared with the 1850s Eidsberg prison, where he was before, Halden is a relief: "Being there and being here, it's like heaven and hell."

Two prison officers are sitting with the eight prisoners on A-block, encouraging them to knit woollen hats. One also has expensive oil canvases for them to experiment with, but there isn't much appetite for either activity, so once the waffles are finished, they return to playing a card game.

The civility between staff and inmates is noticeable everywhere. Information for new inmates is translated into English for those who do not speak Norwegian. The text is apologetic about the possibility that they may have to wait before they are transferred to a cell, and concludes: "We hope you have understanding for any waiting and hope to help you as soon as possible. With best regards, the reception officers."

Maybe I'm not there long enough to sense latent anger or profound despair, but Halden doesn't feel like a place where you have to look over your shoulder. An official in the healthcare division says up to 40% of inmates will be taking sleeping pills, and between 10% and 20% are on anti-depressants, but overall the atmosphere is calm.

Though food is provided by the prison, inmates can buy ingredients to make their own meals. The prison shop has wasabi paste for those who want to make sushi. You can buy garam masala, vanilla pods or halva, and there is prime fillet of beef at 350 kroner (£37) a kilo, which prisoners club together to buy when they want to make a special meal. The most frequently borrowed books in the library are cookbooks. Most prisoners' fridges are full of yoghurt drinks and cheeses; a couple say they've put on weight since they arrived.

At 3pm, a table is set for 10, with white china plates, glasses and white paper napkins, in the drug rehabilitation unit, where Robert, 45 and an ex-addict and dealer, is living. Some prisoners are sitting on the brown woollen sofas watching the communal television. It looks like an advertisement for a family ski-chalet, complete with beautiful forest views. This is the main meal of the day; afterwards, between four and five prisoners will be locked in their cells for an hour to give the prison guards time for a break, then there will be free time until lock-up at 8.30pm.

Occasionally the prisoners talk of the Breivik trial, which is closely followed on television. On the whole they don't believe the liberal regime from which they benefit should be extended to him. "He couldn't stay in a place like this," Robert says. "If I saw him, I would knock him down. I'm a nice prisoner but I would do it and I would brag about it. Everybody wants to take him out."

A fellow inmate, Patrick, serving a 12-year sentence for drug smuggling, was one of two prisoners who organised a prison-wide collection to buy flowers for the victims of Breivik's attack. Everyone gave up their daily wage of 53 kroner (£5.60); even the prime minister was moved by the gesture. "It was horrible, the thing that happened, and we felt helpless," Patrick says. "We wanted to do something. I was surprised that it got so much media attention; I was surprised that people thought, 'You're prisoners, but you are so nice.' We are also human beings. We also have daughters, sisters, children."

Høidal says, with some relief, that if Breivik is ever transferred to Halden, it won't be for at least a decade, by which point he will have retired. Although special arrangements may have to be made for the first stage of Breivik's incarceration, he believes the Norwegian principles of fair and liberal punishment will not be threatened by the atrocity. In the days after the attack, the Norwegian prime minister, Jens Stoltenberg, said, "We are shaken but we will not give up our values. Our response is more freedom, more democracy."

Høidal echoes his words: "If it happens again, then maybe we will have another discussion about the system. For the moment, I don't think that this case will change Norwegian thinking."

Source (might be an easier read on here) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/may/18/halden-most-humane-prison-in-world)

I think it's certainly an interesting way of doing things, perhaps we should be taking a leaf out of their book?

Thoughts?

Jords
20-05-2012, 11:42 AM
o.O

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 11:43 AM
My thought is that, regrettably, I lost interest when I saw how long the article is.

Jack_
20-05-2012, 11:45 AM
My thought is that, regrettably, I lost interest when I saw how long the article is.

Read it on The Guardian site, it's a much easier read.

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 11:47 AM
If we do get that here I will be robbing a bank then sitting in the nearest bar waiting to be arrested ...

Z
20-05-2012, 11:50 AM
It might sound ridiculous but I think it's a far better attempt at rehabilitating prisoners than we have here. Our system is based more around vindication rather than looking at the future and rehabilitating prisoners. That reflects the wider population I think. We lean more towards "BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY!!!!" than "let's fix this prisoner so they don't do it again" - and judging by the recidivism figures given, perhaps their attitude is better than ours. Interesting article, thank you for sharing Jack!

MTVN
20-05-2012, 11:53 AM
Yeah we could learn a lot from Norway's justice system, there's a reason they have such a low crime rate, so few prisoners, and such a low reoffending rate compared to most countries

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 11:54 AM
Yeah we could learn a lot from Norway's justice system, there's a reason they have such a low crime rate, so few prisoners, and such a low reoffending rate compared to most countries

There's a pretty low crime rate & pretty low reoffending rate in Saudi Arabia in comparison to most countries - perhaps we could (conversely) learn a lot from Saudi Arabia?

Z
20-05-2012, 12:00 PM
There's a pretty low crime rate & pretty low reoffending rate in Saudi Arabia in comparison to most countries - perhaps we could (conversely) learn a lot from Saudi Arabia?

Yeah but then they rule through fear of religious consequences, do they not? That wouldn't work in the UK because we're not a very religious country anymore, and anything threatening violence would doubtless breach EU laws?

MTVN
20-05-2012, 12:04 PM
There's a pretty low crime rate & pretty low reoffending rate in Saudi Arabia in comparison to most countries - perhaps we could (conversely) learn a lot from Saudi Arabia?

If you want to live in a country where women are banned from driving, people are still being beheaded for sorcery, public displays of affection are a crime etc. then you could argue that yes, although I'd rather we went the other way and used rehabilitation as a means to reduce crime with it being beneficial to everyone

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 12:06 PM
Yeah but then they rule through fear of religious consequences, do they not? That wouldn't work in the UK because we're not a very religious country anymore, and anything threatening violence would doubtless breach EU laws?

Not necessarily. Many are placed in jails - with nothing to do with religious consequences.

Without 'violence' - life in Arab jails is tough. Most who experience it rarely want a 2nd trip.

I know it's an extreme 'reply' - and no, I don't agree with all of such ways of dealing with crime: I'm only making the case for 'Norway' being so good and the stats proving that: the stats also prove the same for a far stricter prisoning system.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 12:07 PM
If you want to live in a country where women are banned from driving, people are still being beheaded for sorcery, public displays of affection are a crime etc. then you could argue that yes, although I'd rather we went the other way and used rehabilitation as a means to reduce crime with it being beneficial to everyone


I have, and I still hold that same view.

Can you say the same?

MTVN
20-05-2012, 12:08 PM
I have, and I still hold that same view.

Can you say the same?

Nope

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 12:19 PM
Nope

I've also lived in an Arab Country that does allow women to drive, that does allow women to work, who have much western influences in the the way the country operates (including alcohol being allowed) and their prisons have as just as harsh conditions.

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 12:21 PM
To be fair then our system is a happy medium... And still we have the homeless taking up places in jails as it provides warmth, shelter and food (better than your average primary school)...
If we had norways model that would increase in my opinion...Lets keep prisons for real criminals and help our homeless off the streets.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 12:31 PM
To be fair then our system is a happy medium... And still we have the homeless taking up places in jails as it provides warmth, shelter and food (better than your average primary school)...
If we had norways model that would increase in my opinion...Lets keep prisons for real criminals and help our homeless off the streets.


That's a another thing though: we all have very different opinions on what we regard as 'real criminals'.

If people were adequately punished for any crime: they'd learn and wouldn't want to re-offend - but as you can see: it doesn't put them off for very long.


Half of prisoners commit new offences within a year of release.
Mr Clarke said prisons were not “delivering as they should” and that the public were right to be alarmed that prisoners often just spend their days in their cell watching television.

Writing in The Daily Telegraph, Mr Clarke said: “The public wants a penal system that properly punishes offenders, and protects the law-abiding citizen.

“Yet, our prisons are not delivering as they should
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8984942/Ken-Clarke-to-double-number-of-prisoners-working-full-time.html

Tom4784
20-05-2012, 12:36 PM
I admire Norway's philosophies as I do think Rehibilitation is important and the UK doesn't put enough stock in it. I'll be very interested to see in the future what the prison's stats are like. I think if it proves successful then once the economy becomes more stable we should perhaps trial it. If Norway's approach works and can be adapted to other ccountries then why not try it?

As for the whole Shariah Law Vs Rehibilitation debate, if both are successful then why would you opt to defend the former? It seems a little bloodthirsty to me to support the more violent option if the rehibilitation method is just as viable.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 12:42 PM
I admire Norway's philosophies as I do think Rehibilitation is important and the UK doesn't put enough stock in it. I'll be very interested to see in the future what the prison's stats are like. I think if it proves successful then once the economy becomes more stable we should perhaps trial it. If Norway's approach works and can be adapted to other ccountries then why not try it?

As for the whole Shariah Law Vs Rehibilitation debate, if both are successful then why would you opt to defend the former? It seems a little bloodthirsty to me to support the more violent option if the rehibilitation method is just as viable.


Because I chose to put forth an alternative which works equally as well - without pandering to criminals. I don't see why criminals should be cossetted and have their little feathers all fluffed up - jail is meant to be punishment.

I'd far a basic prison service that actually punishes - not through violence which you appear to have assumed - I mentioned nothing about violence being part of that punishment in any of my posts, you however have chosen to make a wrong assumption and read into my posts, something that I did not make mention of. Indeed I actually spoke not of defending the violence: right here....

Without 'violence' - life in Arab jails is tough. Most who experience it rarely want a 2nd trip.



I refer to the very basic nature of jails/prisons elsewhere in the world - that have conditions that are not pleasurable,are not enjoyable and are not some cosy little number for a few years.

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 12:59 PM
It was found I think that 'old school' prisons for want of a better term created more problems than they solved , inmates came out institutionalised and psychologically unable to integrate back into society...
We cannot go backwards to those times, or follow the harsh regime of other nations.
A graduated response via ongoing assessments would determine who is mad, bad or dangerous to know,and what measures need to be but in place to minimise the risk of re-offending...
I guess you could call this rehabilitation, but the difference is I don't believe it is a viable option for all.
Resources should be pooled into those who have the greatest chance of 'going straight'
(as in criminality not sexuality)

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 01:02 PM
It was found I think that 'old school' prisons for want of a better term created more problems than they solved , inmates came out institutionalised and psychologically unable to integrate back into society...
We cannot go backwards to those times, or follow the harsh regime of other nations.
A graduated response via ongoing assessments would determine who is mad, bad or dangerous to know,and what measures need to be but in place to minimise the risk of re-offending...
I guess you could call this rehabilitation, but the difference is I don't believe it is a viable option for all.
Resources should be pooled into those who have the greatest chance of 'going straight'
(as in criminality not sexuality)


Whilst I understand exactly what you mean, and I so wish it was workable: the amount of rehabiliation that goes on in our prisons currently: (Jon Venables as an example and there are many others too) - I don't see it being as effective as we would hope and wish it to be.

arista
20-05-2012, 01:10 PM
No our prisons need to go the American Way
so prisoners work each day.

that makes sense.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 01:18 PM
No our prisons need to go the American Way
so prisoners work each day.

that makes sense.




Ken Clarke would agree with you. I do too.


Mr Clarke said prisons were not “delivering as they should” and that the public were right to be alarmed that prisoners often just spend their days in their cell watching television.

Writing in The Daily Telegraph, Mr Clarke said: “The public wants a penal system that properly punishes offenders, and protects the law-abiding citizen.

“Yet, our prisons are not delivering as they should.”

He added: “The first thing we are doing is introducing a full working week to get more offenders off their beds and into purposeful activity.

“Right now, prisoners are simply a wasted resource – thousands of hours of manpower sitting idle.”









A year in Halden costs the state around £116,000, while the average cost of a place in the UK is £45,000.

Cost is only one of the reasons prison reformers in the UK don't think there's any prospect of the Halden model being adopted here. We have double the number of prisoners that Norway has (around 140 per 100,000 in England and Wales, to Norway's 74.8), and having a smaller prison population makes things simpler for the Norwegian state. Halden is so new, there are no figures yet for how swiftly and frequently prisoners drift back into prison after their release

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 01:23 PM
People in UK prisons work arista...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/11/22/working-prisons-40-hour-week_n_1107766.html

Some more info on rehab..
http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/docs/m/11-828-making-prisons-work-skills-for-rehabilitation

MTVN
20-05-2012, 01:27 PM
There might be no figures for Halden's reoffending rate but if you look at this article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914) yesterday from the BBC about the prison island of Bastoey in Norway:

The result he refers to is a 16% re-offending rate among former Bastoey inmates. It is by far the lowest in Europe, quite possibly the lowest in the world.

arista
20-05-2012, 01:31 PM
"People in UK prisons work arista..."

Sure Some do
but this is
Bigger Wide Scale Work System.

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Taken from
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120119200607/http:/www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/docs/breaking-the-cycle.pdf

QUOTE:
Having somewhere suitable to live upon release from custody can be a critical factor in rehabilitating offenders. Prisoners are often at risk of losing their accommodation whilst in prison. For those serving short sentences, this can further contribute to their unstable and chaotic lifestyles. In addition, around 15% of prisoners were homeless or living in some form of insecure accommodation before entering prison, including 9% who were sleeping rough.

Taken from the same article..
Prisons as places of hard work and industry
There are some examples of prisoners working hard within a disciplined environment. At HMP Manchester nearly 60 prisoners are now working up to 40 hours per week in an industrial laundry and a printing workshop. At HMP Ranby a workshop that produces plastic goods operates using prisoners over three shifts, and runs for 20 hours per day.
Some prisons also have active partnerships with the private sector. In a joint venture at HMP Kirkham with Calpac UK, some 40 prisoners work a 37.5 hour week packing food. At HMP Ford, Travis Perkins runs a 30 prisoner workshop, refurbishing equipment.
Our proposals will build on these too isolated examples, with more prisoners working hard across the prison system.

Jack_
20-05-2012, 01:34 PM
Because I chose to put forth an alternative which works equally as well - without pandering to criminals. I don't see why criminals should be cossetted and have their little feathers all fluffed up - jail is meant to be punishment.

But as someone on The Guardian comments quite rightly pointed out, you go to prison as punishment, not for punishment.

Being stripped of your liberties and freedom should be enough 'punishment', and then the focus should move to rehabilitation. Many of the inmates in the article comment on how they don't enjoy being in prison, and miss their families, so clearly it's still not a place where they want to be, and I have to say despite how nice it looks, it's not a place I'd want to be either. The balance seems right to me.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Taken from
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120119200607/http:/www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/docs/breaking-the-cycle.pdf

QUOTE:
Having somewhere suitable to live upon release from custody can be a critical factor in rehabilitating offenders. Prisoners are often at risk of losing their accommodation whilst in prison. For those serving short sentences, this can further contribute to their unstable and chaotic lifestyles. In addition, around 15% of prisoners were homeless or living in some form of insecure accommodation before entering prison, including 9% who were sleeping rough.


Sorry, I don't feel any sympathy.

I'm sure some of these types fall into the type of criminals who beat the hell out of babies, torture them, mistreat them, bludgeon old frail pensioners, con them out of their live savings, and druggies.

This is one area that I don't have pity on them. They should have thought of all this before committing their crimes.

Harsh but there it is; that's my opinion.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 01:39 PM
There might be no figures for Halden's reoffending rate but if you look at this article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914) yesterday from the BBC about the prison island of Bastoey in Norway:


Yes, and of course: you have to build in this important little factor


The UK have double the number of prisoners that Norway has (around 140 per 100,000 in England and Wales, to Norway's 74.8), and having a smaller prison population makes things simpler for the Norwegian state

arista
20-05-2012, 01:39 PM
"Harsh but there it is; that's my opinion. "

Which Is Bang On Right

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 01:44 PM
But as someone on The Guardian comments quite rightly pointed out, you go to prison as punishment, not for punishment.

Being stripped of your liberties and freedom should be enough 'punishment', and then the focus should move to rehabilitation. Many of the inmates in the article comment on how they don't enjoy being in prison, and miss their families, so clearly it's still not a place where they want to be, and I have to say despite how nice it looks, it's not a place I'd want to be either. The balance seems right to me.

Freedom of liberties, missing their families.

They should have considered all that before they decided do break the law.

Do you feel sorry for people who horrifically abuse children, you feel sorry for those who destroy other people's lives, who punch the daylights out of OAPs leaving them living in fear for the rest of their lives, for the drug pushers that cause untold hell on earth for many (those they supply to and those even that they don't) because they lose 'some' freedom in some things? That is part of the punishment - it's the way the cookie crumbles.

Nope, not one ounce of pity here Jack, it's not as though the idea of getting caught and banged up is a new concept.

Jack_
20-05-2012, 01:50 PM
Freedom of liberties, missing their families.

They should have considered all that before they decided do break the law.

Do you feel sorry for people who horrifically abuse children, you feel sorry for those who destroy other people's lives, who punch the daylights out of OAPs leaving them living in fear for the rest of their lives, for the drug pushers that cause untold hell on earth for many (those they supply to and those even that they don't) because they lose 'some' freedom in some things? That is part of the punishment - it's the way the cookie crumbles.

Nope, not one ounce of pity here Jack, it's not as though the idea of getting caught and banged up is a new concept.

Please refer me to the part of my post where I stated, or indeed implied that I disagreed with prisoners freedom being removed.

That was actually the point I was making, that that's all they should lose. Losing their freedoms is the punishment. Being in prison is the punishment, not that they should go to prison for their punishment. That's what I was trying to say.

And no of course I don't feel sorry for them (in most cases anyway), but that doesn't mean I don't want them to be rehabilitated. Rehabilitation is important and I think we should start focusing some more on that, because at the end of the day, the fact is most prisoners are going to be released one day, and I'd much rather them come out less likely to re-offend than more likely.

Being in prison itself should be the punishment, and then the focus should be on rehabilitation and changing these people for the better.

Tom4784
20-05-2012, 01:56 PM
Because I chose to put forth an alternative which works equally as well - without pandering to criminals. I don't see why criminals should be cossetted and have their little feathers all fluffed up - jail is meant to be punishment.

I'd far a basic prison service that actually punishes - not through violence which you appear to have assumed - I mentioned nothing about violence being part of that punishment in any of my posts, you however have chosen to make a wrong assumption and read into my posts, something that I did not make mention of. Indeed I actually spoke not of defending the violence: right here....



I refer to the very basic nature of jails/prisons elsewhere in the world - that have conditions that are not pleasurable,are not enjoyable and are not some cosy little number for a few years.

But why would you champion such a system when Norway has put forward one that not only works but aims to turn criminals into functioning members of soceity? A system based on fear and misguided revenge only goes so far.

Livia
20-05-2012, 02:01 PM
Frankly I'd be more interested in an article that talks about how the victims of crime are supported rather than another thousand words about how well the perpetrators are being looked after. I'd be interested to count the posts on this forum that bemoan the harsh treatment of criminals and compare them to posts bemoaning the sh*tty deal that the victims get.

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 02:03 PM
But why would you champion such a system when Norway has put forward one that not only works but aims to turn criminals into functioning members of soceity? A system based on fear and misguided revenge only goes so far.

Im sorry but the bottom line is we cannot afford to keep anyone to that standard....
Ask Marc about the current state of council accomodation in the UK.

MTVN
20-05-2012, 02:07 PM
Yes, and of course: you have to build in this important little factor

So connect the dots, why do they have a smaller prison population?

Tom4784
20-05-2012, 02:09 PM
Im sorry but the bottom line is we cannot afford to keep anyone to that standard....
Ask Marc about the current state of council accomodation in the UK.

In my original post I did say that it should be something we should test out when the economy balances out.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 02:13 PM
[
Please refer me to the part of my post where I stated, or indeed implied that I disagreed with prisoners freedom being removed.



Please refer me to the part of my post that where I stated, or indeed implied that you disagreed with prisoners' freedom being removed. I stated no such thing.

I pointed out that it is only 'some' of their freedom is lost in comparison to what many of their victims lose. I then asked if you felt sorry for x/y/z type of offenders - that's not implication: that is a question, and one which you answered.



But why would you champion such a system when Norway has put forward one that not only works but aims to turn criminals into functioning members of soceity? A system based on fear and misguided revenge only goes so far.

I'm not championing anything. I am pointing out that other systems stats on reoffenders can be achieved just as equally as the system Norway is presenting. It is a comparison on reoffending stats: not championing.

Where is the 'fear' and 'misguided revenge' coming into play? I mentioned nothing like that - I'd be grateful if you would point me to where I mentioned, suggested or implied anything to do with 'fear' or 'misguided revenge'. This is where good debates go awry Dezzy: people start throwing around comments that were not said.

Ever visited anyone in a jail in the Middle East? I have and it was less to do with fear or revenge: and more to do with harsh living conditions, no luxuries: the very basics in respect of food/accomodation/bedding - and having to rely on relatives and friends visiting to bring money, clothing, food etc.

Harsh living that not many are willing to repeat.

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 02:13 PM
Well we will all be dead by then so...:)

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 02:15 PM
So connect the dots, why do they have a smaller prison population?

I'll thank you for refraining from being so patronising and rude MTVN - there really is no need.

5millon Norway population.

62 million UK population.

I don't really have to point out the obvious... do I? :conf:

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 02:17 PM
Frankly I'd be more interested in an article that talks about how the victims of crime are supported rather than another thousand words about how well the perpetrators are being looked after. I'd be interested to count the posts on this forum that bemoan the harsh treatment of criminals and compare them to posts bemoaning the sh*tty deal that the victims get.

Quite.

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 02:19 PM
I'll thank you for refraining from being so patronising and rude MTVN - there really is no need.

5millon Norway population.

62 million UK population.

I don't really have to point out the obvious... do I? :conf:

Obv... lol

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 02:22 PM
Well we will all be dead by then so...:)

I'll have snuffed it in about 10 years I reckon: so by this thread: I'm going to nip over to Norway, get my resident's permit then go commit some heinous crime and spend my last few years in absolute pleasure: having my every whim catering.

That really sounds like a fabulous plan.

MTVN
20-05-2012, 02:30 PM
I'll thank you for refraining from being so patronising and rude MTVN - there really is no need.

5millon Norway population.

62 million UK population.

I don't really have to point out the obvious... do I? :conf:

Obv... lol

Except the article is stating they have a smaller prison population per 100,000 of the population

around 140 per 100,000 in England and Wales, to Norway's 74.8

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 02:42 PM
Not like here then..Our prison population will soon be larger than the population of norway....

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 02:54 PM
Except the article is stating they have a smaller prison population per 100,000 of the population


Less people in a country = less people committing crimes to start off with as far as Europeans figures appear to show - additionally: I suspect it is more to do with the way Norway bring up their children to be more decent law abiding adult, more responsible and respectable citizens, compared to the UK.

Sometimes you have to expand the mind, educate people in a better way, teach them how to behave in a civilised society, to respect others and their property etc: if the UK started from grass roots level, and spent less money and time pandering to those who do commit crimes and are imprisoned: we'd HAVE less people per 100,000 in jail - going to jail is not a deterrent in this county. It's seen more as in inconvenience to most cons - who suffer from revolving door syndrome.

Again, I think that's fairly transparent.

MTVN
20-05-2012, 02:57 PM
Less people in a country = less people committing crimes to start off with - additinoally: I suspect it is more to do with the way Norway bring up their children to be more decent law abiding adult, more responsible and respectable citizens, compared to the UK.

Sometimes you have to expand the mind, educate people in a better way, teach them how to behave in a civilised society, to respect others and their property etc: if the UK started from grass roots level, and spent less money and time pandering to those who do commit crimes and are imprisoned: we'd HAVE less people per 100,000 in jail - going to jail is not a deterrent in this county. It's seen more as in inconvenience to most cons - who suffer from revolving door syndrome.

Again, I think that's fairly transparent.

Yes but they have a proportionately less crime per head of the population, the size of a country is irrelevant

And sure, many factors contribute towards a low crime rate; an effective justice system is a pretty big one

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 03:01 PM
Yes but they have a proportionately less crime per head of the population, the size of a country is irrelevant

And sure, many factors contribute towards a low crime rate; an effective justice system is a pretty big one

The justice system in this country is a joke - mind you, it again goes back to grass roots.

If people are brought up to respect others, to respect the laws of the land, and to be aware that prison is not some cushy number - there would be less crime.

The size of the country is relevant - as was made clear in the article in the Guardian.

swinearefine
20-05-2012, 03:03 PM
Good. I think society places too much importance on punishment rather than rehabilitation. Normally living in a good environment and acquiring skills to transition into a crime-free life on the outside produce the lowest recidivism rates. Where I live they once did a program that allowed prisoners to earn bachelor's degrees and the focus was on achieving that rather than punishing them for their crimes, and not one of the prisoners in the program returned to jail after they were released.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 03:08 PM
Good. I think society places too much importance on punishment rather than rehabilitation. Normally living in a good environment and acquiring skills to transition into a crime-free life on the outside produce the lowest recidivism rates. Where I live they once did a program that allowed prisoners to earn bachelor's degrees and the focus was on achieving that rather than punishing them for their crimes, and not one of the prisoners in the program returned to jail after they were released.


What did they do for the victims to help them on the road to recovery?

were they offered free shelter, food, clothing, heating and free education to Degree level?

Which rehab program was this: there must be some link to it - I'd be interested to read about it.

Livia
20-05-2012, 03:15 PM
Good. I think society places too much importance on punishment rather than rehabilitation. Normally living in a good environment and acquiring skills to transition into a crime-free life on the outside produce the lowest recidivism rates. Where I live they once did a program that allowed prisoners to earn bachelor's degrees and the focus was on achieving that rather than punishing them for their crimes, and not one of the prisoners in the program returned to jail after they were released.

Surely what this teaches us is this: work hard and pay your way, take out a student loan it will take you years to pay off and study. Or... become a criminal, rob or beat someone, or break into their home or steal their car or maybe even rape or murder someone... and not only get it all paid for on the taxpayer,but also study in an environment where you're not going to have to work as well to be able to eat and buy books.

Spend the money that would be put into making prisoners' lives comfortable into schools and education, because if there's one thing the majority of prisoners have in common it's a lack of education and opportunity. Waiting until they've committed a crime to give them an education sounds ridiculous to me.

swinearefine
20-05-2012, 03:18 PM
What did they do for the victims to help them on the road to recovery?

were they offered free shelter, food, clothing, heating and free education to Degree level?

Which rehab program was this: there must be some link to it - I'd be interested to read about it.

They bachelor's degrees gave them potential for a career when they got on, rather than returning to selling drugs and what not. I don't know how prison works in the UK but in the US there is a high recidivism rate because when people get out they have little assistance with integrating back into society and with few job opportunities and the same group of often criminal friends they just settle back into their old lives.

They had free shelter, food, clothing, heating, and their degrees were entirely paid for, I think by a private donor. The Massachusetts government were discussing making it a tax-funded program in all the state's jails I do believe, but it was turned down because of fears that people who could not afford bachelor's degrees would commit crimes to go to jail.

I don't have any links; I remember it on the news and writing a research paper about it a few years back.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 03:22 PM
They bachelor's degrees gave them potential for a career when they got on, rather than returning to selling drugs and what not. I don't know how prison works in the UK but in the US there is a high recidivism rate because when people get out they have little assistance with integrating back into society and with few job opportunities and the same group of often criminal friends they just settle back into their old lives.

They had free shelter, food, clothing, heating, and their degrees were entirely paid for, I think by a private donor. The Massachusetts government were discussing making it a tax-funded program in all the state's jails I do believe, but it was turned down because of fears that people who could not afford bachelor's degrees would commit crimes to go to jail.

I don't have any links; I remember it on the news and writing a research paper about it a few years back.


That's not what I asked about though. I asked what did 'The wonders who thought this was how to treat criminals'... what did they do for the victims at the hands of those criminals. Were the victims given years of free food, clothing, shelter, heating, electricity and a free education to degree level?

What's the name of the prison that you are referring to? See the bit in bold: you've more or less destroyed your whole argument: that's the very point some of us are making: it 'pays' to commit crime, it 'pays' to go to jail.

swinearefine
20-05-2012, 03:24 PM
Surely what this teaches us is this: work hard and pay your way, take out a student loan it will take you years to pay off and study. Or... become a criminal, rob or beat someone, or break into their home or steal their car or maybe even rape or murder someone... and not only get it all paid for on the taxpayer,but also study in an environment where you're not going to have to work as well to be able to eat and buy books.

Spend the money that would be put into making prisoners' lives comfortable into schools and education, because if there's one thing the majority of prisoners have in common it's a lack of education and opportunity. Waiting until they've committed a crime to give them an education sounds ridiculous to me.

That was why the government decided against passing a law to make it a state-wide program.

I completely agree with spending more money on childhood education to prevent people from committing crimes in the first place, but I think it is also important to educate prisoners. It's not only for their benefit, but for the benefit of society as a whole. I think they should be required to have to pay for their degree, whether through working while in prison to paying while on the outside, like a loan.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 03:26 PM
They bachelor's degrees gave them potential for a career when they got on, rather than returning to selling drugs and what not. I don't know how prison works in the UK but in the US there is a high recidivism rate because when people get out they have little assistance with integrating back into society and with few job opportunities and the same group of often criminal friends they just settle back into their old lives.

They had free shelter, food, clothing, heating, and their degrees were entirely paid for, I think by a private donor. The Massachusetts government were discussing making it a tax-funded program in all the state's jails I do believe, but it was turned down because of fears that people who could not afford bachelor's degrees would commit crimes to go to jail.

I don't have any links; I remember it on the news and writing a research paper about it a few years back.


I should have addressed the bolded part in my last post... however.

This again affirms my earlier post in regards to how people are brought up - that's where it starts off: the very people you mention above are brought up, raised to believe that breaking the law is the way to live.

It's about educating from early on, in childhood - not closing stable doors after horses have bolted.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 03:28 PM
That was why the government decided against passing a law to make it a state-wide program.

I completely agree with spending more money on childhood education to prevent people from committing crimes in the first place, but I think it is also important to educate prisoners. It's not only for their benefit, but for the benefit of society as a whole. I think they should be required to have to pay for their degree, whether through working while in prison to paying while on the outside, like a loan.

Because it wasn't seen as a success then: for the very reasons I, and some others have stated : it was a cushy number with only the offenders and criminals benefitting: whilst the tax payers cough up the dough, and the victims get left to 'just get on with it' - with little, if any help at all.

Kizzy
20-05-2012, 03:29 PM
The onus that was put on safeguarding the vulnerable before such as youth services have been crippled by cuts...
Wow pyra you read my mind was just about to mention that.
Getting to them before they enter the prison system would be much more cost effective....
In particular the work of the YJB, which I believe the government are trying to get rid off.

03 February 2012 318: Planning Act 2008 / Localism Act 2011 summary at 3 February 2012

The second day of debate on the Report stage of the Public Bodies Bill in the Lords yesterday saw the Government lose two divisions, firstly (by 225 votes to 162) on an amendment to remove the Youth Justice Board from Schedule 1 (bodies which can be abolished by order)

swinearefine
20-05-2012, 03:29 PM
That's not what I asked about though. I asked what did 'The wonders who thought this was how to treat criminals'... what did they do for the victims at the hands of those criminals. Were the victims given years of free food, clothing, shelter, heating, electricity and a free education to degree level?

What's the name of the prison that you are referring to? See the bit in bold: you've more or less destroyed your whole argument: that's the very point some of us are making: it 'pays' to commit crime, it 'pays' to go to jail.

Oh sorry, I thought you were asking about the prisoners. I have no idea how or if the victims were compensated. I think they should be in some way, but the criminals would be the ones in need of the most help - not just so they can have better lives, but so that in the future people are made victims.

And I was merely qualifying my argument. I'm not totally for one side and totally against the other. I see the value in educating prisoners, but I don't think it's fair that they get their whole education paid for while other people work hard for it. I'm just offering an example of a program that worked to combat recidivism to give more insight into the topic.

swinearefine
20-05-2012, 03:32 PM
I should have addressed the bolded part in my last post... however.

This again affirms my earlier post in regards to how people are brought up - that's where it starts off: the very people you mention above are brought up, raised to believe that breaking the law is the way to live.

It's about educating from early on, in childhood - not closing stable doors after horses have bolted.

I totally agree, but there is the problem of millions of prisoners to deal with.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 03:34 PM
Oh sorry, I thought you were asking about the prisoners. I have no idea how or if the victims were compensated. I think they should be in some way, but the criminals would be the ones in need of the most help - not just so they can have better lives, but so that in the future people are made victims.

And I was merely qualifying my argument. I'm not totally for one side and totally against the other. I see the value in educating prisoners, but I don't think it's fair that they get their whole education paid for while other people work hard for it. I'm just offering an example of a program that worked to combat recidivism to give more insight into the topic.


Criminals are the ones in need of the most help. I find such a comment hard to believe - and poor old 70 year old OAPs , getting beaten black and blue, face smashed in whilst they lay sleeping peacefully in the 'safety' of her own home - gets a few thousand bucks and not much else other than living the rest of her years in utter fear.

What was the name of this prison that run this special program? You said it was near you? If it was on the news etc, it should be easy enough to look up (not you, I mean anyone who may be interested).

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 03:35 PM
I totally agree, but there is the problem of millions of prisoners to deal with.

You will find that there are millions of victims to deal with also.

I'd say they took priority - the victims.

What has society become when the sympathy lies not for victims, but for criminals.

No wonder the world is going to hell.

swinearefine
20-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Criminals are the ones in need of the most help. I find such a comment hard to believe - and poor old 70 year old OAPs , getting beaten black and blue, face smashed in whilst they lay sleeping peacefully in the 'safety' of her own home - gets a few thousand bucks and not much else other than living the rest of her years in utter fear.

If a criminal goes to jail, is released while living in terrible conditions and without prospects of a career or opportunities, they have a good chance of doing the same thing and making more people into victims. You think I'm saying that we should have more sympathy for a criminal than a victim, but what I'm actually saying is that the criminal needs the most help - they are the one who has committed the crime and they are the one who is likely to do the same thing again when they are released.

What was the name of this prison that run this special program? You said it was near you? If it was on the news etc, it should be easy enough to look up (not you, I mean anyone who may be interested).

After a quick search it appears Boston College funded the program in Norfolk, Bay State, and Framingham prisons.

EDIT: Here's a link if you're interested

You will find that there are millions of victims to deal with also.

I'd say they took priority - the victims.

What has society become when the sympathy lies not for victims, but for criminals.

No wonder the world is going to hell.

It's not as much sympathy for the criminals, but preventing criminals from making even more people into victims.

Pyramid*
20-05-2012, 03:51 PM
If a criminal goes to jail, is released while living in terrible conditions and without prospects of a career or opportunities, they have a good chance of doing the same thing and making more people into victims. You think I'm saying that we should have more sympathy for a criminal than a victim, but what I'm actually saying is that the criminal needs the most help - they are the one who has committed the crime and they are the one who is likely to do the same thing again when they are released.



After a quick search it appears Boston College funded the program in Norfolk, Bay State, and Framingham prisons.

EDIT: Here's a link if you're interested



It's not as much sympathy for the criminals, but preventing criminals from making even more people into victims.

Which is precisely why prison should not be some easy jaunt for a few years, with access to many things that hard working non criminals, trying to keep an honest roof over their heads - can't afford. Sat tv, gyms, 3 square meals a day, never having to worry about it being a cold winter and not being able to turn the heating up high enough etc.

If it was a real deterrent: they wouldn't want to go back: they'd do everything in their power to avoid reoffending.

Thanks for the details - I'll have a little look - appreciated.

waterhog
20-05-2012, 07:05 PM
dont believ all you read and hear ?