Panorama : Stadium of Hate

[Niamh.]

Anyone watch this last night about Polish and Ukrainian racism at football matches? I didn't see it myself but I heard alot of talk about it on the radio this morning.

[InOne]

Yeah I watched it, seemed quite mental in some places. They shouldn't really be allowed to host, I always thought Poland was bad but Ukraine is way worse.

[Niamh.]

Some Polish guy sent in a text to that radio station I was listening to about it actually and he reckons that it's been sensationalised by Panorama and that it's only a small minority of people and most of which are now in prison anyway. As I said I haven't seen it myself but someone else said it would be like showing people footage of the London riots and telling foreigners that's what London was like

[Scarlett.]

Football is filled with racism, people can deny it all they want, but it's there.

[Niamh.]

Do you think it's more so in these countries Chewy or do you think it's similar all over?

[Scarlett.]

Similar all over, every country has those sorts of nationalistic ***** who like to ruin things for others.

[Niamh.]

I agree, that was my first thoughts when I heard about it this morning. It's a shame that they're making people afraid about going over there now.

[Saph]

footballs always been a way for people to be racist, homophobic, sexist (and many other things) Its only a minority, but they're the ones who spoil the enjoyment for everyone else..

[MTVN]

I meant to see this but forgot, Sol Campbell has been telling England fans not to go because of it, or they might come back in coffins. It is definitely worse in Eastern Europe though, it's not uncommon for black players to have banana's thrown at them and stuff in Russia, and I remember Ross Kemp did a documentary on neo-Nazi football hooligans in Poland

But I do think it might be getting sensationalised to some extent, and that's a good point about the London riots, I think there'll be putting in a lot of effort to try and clamp down on any racism for the tournament too. Guess we'll just have to wait and see though

[Niamh.]

I meant to see this but forgot, Sol Campbell has been telling England fans not to go because of it, or they might come back in coffins. It is definitely worse in Eastern Europe though, it's not uncommon for black players to have banana's thrown at them and stuff in Russia, and I remember Ross Kemp did a documentary on neo-Nazi football hooligans in Poland

But I do think it might be getting sensationalised to some extent, and that's a good point about the London riots, I think there'll be putting in a lot of effort to try and clamp down on any racism for the tournament too. Guess we'll just have to wait and see though

Yeah, I just think it's a shame when so many people (over here anyway) were really looking forward to it and have trips planned etc and then you were getting black and mixed race Irish people so afraid after watching it that they're thinking about cancelling their trips :/

Now as I said I haven't even watched it myself and maybe it really is that bad but as Chewy said I think racism and football hooliganism in general is a problem in alot of countries (the UK included)

[MTVN]

I don't think you can say it's a similar problem here than it is over there though, it used to be a lot worse but we've taken a lot of steps to try and get rid of it and it's only a ridiculously tiny minority where it still exists, whereas teams like Zenit St Petersburg in Russia have never even signed a black player because there fans would just give them loads of abuse and the authorities often don't do anything about it

[Niamh.]

Oh Really? wow that's terrible

[MTVN]

Yeah, according to their ex manager he tried to sign a black player once but was advised against it because the hardcore of the clubs fans would be really annoyed about it, supposedly they're trying to do more about it in Russia but it'll take a while I think. I don't know much about it in Ukraine though, will give the program a watch later

[seanraff07]

I'm one of the main folk in an Ultras group for my team Hibs. So I know a fair bit about the whole ultras scene especially in Poland, the Polish/Ukranian ultras hate media hence why they want to ruin Euro 2012. There have been loads of banners etc unveiled by Polish ultras groups in the past few months saying "**** Euro" etc. Basically what they want to do is turn the place into a warzone, Polish hooligans will look at this as a good chance to make a name for themselves and take on the well-known hooligans at Chelsea, Spurs, Millwall etc who go across.

I think for Poland, English and Germans will be their main targets. Racism in football is a lot worse in Russia than it is in Poland and Ukraine. But it's also much worse in Eastern Europe than it is over here in the UK, no way is it similar. There is still racism here but not so much in football grounds any more.

You'll find that the majority of Ultras groups all over the world have religious beliefs etc - more so in Eastern Europe, and also places like Egypt etc. The Ultras group I'm in aren't like this, we don't favour any wing - we solely focus on supporting our team. We don't believe that religion deserves any place in football, it's not necessary. But of course it's a total different kettle of fish over there, they do everything they can to get their views across.

The Government must have known Ultras would riot if they were to hold a major tournament so I've no idea why they went ahead with it. I'm just glad there is no African teams or it'd be even worse. But believe me, Poland and Ukraine will be warzones over the coming month.

[Ninastar]

I watched it and it was disgusting.

[Pyramid*]

I managed to see a tiny tiny bit (and I mean literally just seconds) of a news clip I think it was either last night, or something I caught between flicking channels.

The tiny bit that I saw was violent beyond belief (and I think 'think'.. the part I saw was a policeman getting battered).

I hate this type of thing - and it shames me that both here in the UK as well as now being part of the EU - that we cannot have such sports without this type of violence.

What the hell is wrong with people?

Look at the States and how friendly their 'football' (ie; American Football) games are: people friendly, safe, for families.

It is an absolute disgrace that people who claim to love sport and the entire ethos behind 'sportsmanship' act like complete savages.

[Kizzy]

Eastern europeans are nothing like westerners....Nothing.
People grumble at our police....fans whatever colour going there to cause trouble will be shocked.

[Niamh.]

I'm one of the main folk in an Ultras group for my team Hibs. So I know a fair bit about the whole ultras scene especially in Poland, the Polish/Ukranian ultras hate media hence why they want to ruin Euro 2012. There have been loads of banners etc unveiled by Polish ultras groups in the past few months saying "**** Euro" etc. Basically what they want to do is turn the place into a warzone, Polish hooligans will look at this as a good chance to make a name for themselves and take on the well-known hooligans at Chelsea, Spurs, Millwall etc who go across.

I think for Poland, English and Germans will be their main targets. Racism in football is a lot worse in Russia than it is in Poland and Ukraine. But it's also much worse in Eastern Europe than it is over here in the UK, no way is it similar. There is still racism here but not so much in football grounds any more.

You'll find that the majority of Ultras groups all over the world have religious beliefs etc - more so in Eastern Europe, and also places like Egypt etc. The Ultras group I'm in aren't like this, we don't favour any wing - we solely focus on supporting our team. We don't believe that religion deserves any place in football, it's not necessary. But of course it's a total different kettle of fish over there, they do everything they can to get their views across.

The Government must have known Ultras would riot if they were to hold a major tournament so I've no idea why they went ahead with it. I'm just glad there is no African teams or it'd be even worse. But believe me, Poland and Ukraine will be warzones over the coming month.

Thanks for that Sean, it was a very interesting read. I really got the impression that there was a bit of over sensationalising going on but maybe not then :/ It would be terrible if the tournament was ruined by something like this

[seanraff07]

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1hwtjlbP21r28jbvo1_500.jpg

http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDltkwNva_pqytF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FMaABC2jr2SE%2 Fhqdefault.jpg

http://sport365.hu/files/upload/lodz.jpg

There's just a few examples of banners etc displayed in recent months by Polish Ultra groups showing they are against Euro 2012.

[MTVN]

Hmm that's interesting, I'd have thought most Polish fans might be happy about their game getting more exposure

[Iceman]

I remember Ross kemp doing a programme I think it was in Poland, some really shocking stuff.

[seanraff07]

Thanks for that Sean, it was a very interesting read. I really got the impression that there was a bit of over sensationalising going on but maybe not then :/ It would be terrible if the tournament was ruined by something like this

A very large percentage of people who go to games in Poland are ultras, let's just say they are passionate in what they do and aren't scared about the consequences they face for what they do.

[Niamh.]

A very large percentage of people who go to games in Poland are ultras, let's just say they are passionate in what they do and aren't scared about the consequences they face for what they do.

I wonder why they got to host it then if things are that bad over there? Seems like a very irresponsible choice

[Pyramid*]

A very large percentage of people who go to games in Poland are ultras, let's just say they are passionate in what they do and aren't scared about the consequences they face for what they do.

forgive me if I have picked this up incorrectly here: are you basically saying that they don't care about the violence, fear, terror and basic human rights of others that don't share the views of Ultras?

[seanraff07]

forgive me if I have picked this up incorrectly here: are you basically saying that they don't care about the violence, fear, terror and basic human rights of others that don't share the views of Ultras?

For those going to Euro 2012, yeah. In normal league games they want to re-present their support and protect them, unless they are Blacks as was evident in the documentary. It gives all Ultras groups a bad name though which is a shame, there's a fair few Ultras groups here and we are nothing like that.

[Pyramid*]

For those going to Euro 2012, yeah. In normal league games they want to re-present their support and protect them, unless they are Blacks as was evident in the documentary. It gives all Ultras groups a bad name though which is a shame, there's a fair few Ultras groups here and we are nothing like that.


I'm not being 'wide' here as I'm not into the football thing in any real sense: so what about I were to ask if possibly incredibly stupid and probably ignorant question : why don't those Ultras who want no association with these scumballs - not breakaway and form another support group with another name not linked to Ultras?

(I know, it's most likely the most silly question out - but as I say: an avid football fan I am not).

[seanraff07]

I'm not being 'wide' here as I'm not into the football thing in any real sense: so what about I were to ask if possibly incredibly stupid and probably ignorant question : why don't those Ultras who want no association with these scumballs - not breakaway and form another support group with another name not linked to Ultras?

(I know, it's most likely the most silly question out - but as I say: an avid football fan I am not).

Fair point. I can't really give you a proper answer but I think it's just the fact that there are thousands and thousands of Ultras groups so it wouldn't be easy to get so many of them to break away from the name and form something new. And Ultras have been the known thing for the really noisy, passionate supporters for years and years now, think it would be hard to break away from that. Some groups here though don't give themselves an Ultras tag, and class themselves as more of a supporters group, to keep the rest of their support and the club onside.

[Kizzy]

Would you be worried also that the ultras would view you as fair game, if you are not for us you are against us kind of?...

[Jesus.]

This stuff gets dragged up before the start of tournaments. It's organised crime (South Africa), Mafia (Italy) and now racist violence.

These competitions are such a big deal for trade, and as a showcase, that the governments stamp down on these things immediately, and will have a lot of security in place.

I'd be surprised if anything serious really kicked off. Racism isn't a huge problem with English football these days. No doubt some fans are racist, in the same way that some police are racist, or MP's. Some will be scientologists or Freemasons.

People are generally stupid, and stupidity spreads itself across a cross section of the country.

Let's not forget that at Euro 96, people were worried about us.

Quick question for Sean - I enjoyed reading your post, but can you please explain how being a Hibs "ultra" gives you an insight into the world of these guys?

[seanraff07]

Would you be worried also that the ultras would view you as fair game, if you are not for us you are against us kind of?...

I think they will attack anyone with colours on at Euro 2012, or other groups/gangs they have arranged to fight. Normal league games it is normally organised fighting away from the ground which sometimes continues inside it.

This stuff gets dragged up before the start of tournaments. It's organised crime (South Africa), Mafia (Italy) and now racist violence.

These competitions are such a big deal for trade, and as a showcase, that the governments stamp down on these things immediately, and will have a lot of security in place.

I'd be surprised if anything serious really kicked off. Racism isn't a huge problem with English football these days. No doubt some fans are racist, in the same way that some police are racist, or MP's. Some will be scientologists or Freemasons.

People are generally stupid, and stupidity spreads itself across a cross section of the country.

Let's not forget that at Euro 96, people were worried about us.

Quick question for Sean - I enjoyed reading your post, but can you please explain how being a Hibs "ultra" gives you an insight into the world of these guys?

It doesn't give me an insight, for example after researching for a few months your knowledge would be the same as mines. It's just as an Ultra, you want to keep up to date with other ongoings with other groups so you know what you are up against. These Polish Ultras know how to put on brilliant displays pre-match etc they are the best in the world for that along with Germany, Holland, Turkey etc... we can look to these groups for ways of deisgning displays etc for our matches. It's just the violence/racism bit that really lets them down, just hate to think that neutral folk watching end up getting that impression about all ultra groups.

[Harry!]

I did watch this and I found it fasinating how racism is allowed to happen like that. Some countries are still quite behind socially. But I would expect this is a minority case.

[Jesus.]

I think they will attack anyone with colours on at Euro 2012, or other groups/gangs they have arranged to fight. Normal league games it is normally organised fighting away from the ground which sometimes continues inside it.



It doesn't give me an insight, for example after researching for a few months your knowledge would be the same as mines. It's just as an Ultra, you want to keep up to date with other ongoings with other groups so you know what you are up against. These Polish Ultras know how to put on brilliant displays pre-match etc they are the best in the world for that along with Germany, Holland, Turkey etc... we can look to these groups for ways of deisgning displays etc for our matches. It's just the violence/racism bit that really lets them down, just hate to think that neutral folk watching end up getting that impression about all ultra groups.

I think "Ultras" in the Hibs sense of the word, is another way of describing for passionate supporters. However, "Ultras" as far as Italy and Eastern Europe have an entirely different MO.

You may be entirely correct about the bloodbath foreign fans are facing this summer, but I don't believe there is a chance on hell of that happening.

[seanraff07]

I think "Ultras" in the Hibs sense of the word, is another way of describing for passionate supporters. However, "Ultras" as far as Italy and Eastern Europe have an entirely different MO.

You may be entirely correct about the bloodbath foreign fans are facing this summer, bit I don't believe there is a chance on hell of that happening.

Yeah, obviously folk here in ultras groups get banned from games but it's for stuff like setting off flares etc, whereas over there flares etc are legal and you rarely get pinched for the racist chants over there, do that over here and you'd get lifted and given a lifetime ban straight away. I think the mentality over there is just over the top and they take things far too seriously.

A lot of them don't have another life over there, it's just all football so everything they believe in they bring to the football to if that makes sense.

There may not be masses of trouble - if Police want to prevent it then they will need to be armoured in much bigger numbers than usual, Ultras regularly get the better of Polis over there as the groups are so large.

[Niall]

Just watched this. I didn't think it would be that bad but my God was it disgusting the way those people acted. :bored:

[Jesus.]

Yeah, obviously folk here in ultras groups get banned from games but it's for stuff like setting off flares etc, whereas over there flares etc are legal and you rarely get pinched for the racist chants over there, do that over here and you'd get lifted and given a lifetime ban straight away. I think the mentality over there is just over the top and they take things far too seriously.

A lot of them don't have another life over there, it's just all football so everything they believe in they bring to the football to if that makes sense.

There may not be masses of trouble - if Police want to prevent it then they will need to be armoured in much bigger numbers than usual, Ultras regularly get the better of Polis over there as the groups are so large.

http://markgorman.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/poster-5.jpg

[MTVN]

Watching it now, I'm really surprised about the anti-semitism in Krakow in particular, I went there about 18 months ago and there were quite a lot of Jews around because it's so near to Auschwitz and was where they had a major ghetto they sent them before exterminating them, it's strange people can be so against Jews so close to where about a million of them died, along with Poles who the Nazi's also sent there