Firing people to be made easier...

[Vicky.]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9532950/Firing-people-will-be-made-easier-new-business-minister-says.html



Pressure from the Liberal Democrats forced the Coalition to shelve plans for “no-fault dismissal” earlier this year, which would have allowed small companies to fire people without blame.

Mr Fallon said the Coalition is “not going back to fire at will”. But he claimed ministers are still committed to making it easier to sack people.

Oh wow, I didnt know about this.

So while trying to force people back into work...they were also pushing for people to be able to be fired from their current jobs for no reason? Makes perfect sense to me :bored:

God knows what these new regulations will be. Maybe they will bring sanctions into the workplace or something...be 2 mins late for work, have a week/months pay docked or be fired, your choice. Nevermind anyway, after being fired you can be brought back to the same company for FREE workfare. Everyone wins, you keep your job, employer keeps their staff...and...no...wait. You get **** all for doing it.

[Kate!]

Jesus, I feel bloody shell shocked by all these changes/ stupid ideas they are bringing in. Stop it now please. :(

[Jake.]

More **** from the government. I give up.

[Kizzy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9532950/Firing-people-will-be-made-easier-new-business-minister-says.html



Oh wow, I didnt know about this.

So while trying to force people back into work...they were also pushing for people to be able to be fired from their current jobs for no reason? Makes perfect sense to me :bored:

God knows what these new regulations will be. Maybe they will bring sanctions into the workplace or something...be 2 mins late for work, have a week/months pay docked or be fired, your choice. Nevermind anyway, after being fired you can be brought back to the same company for FREE workfare. Everyone wins, you keep your job, employer keeps their staff...and...no...wait. You get **** all for doing it.

I mentioned it a few months back, its not even a ministerial proposition...
It comes from that tory donater (for want of a better word) Adrian Beecroft!
What is the point of having elected MP's when it's fat cats like mr wonga.com making all the decisions?...

[the truth]

the best solution is not to employ people, but to self employ people

[GiRTh]

Awful news. Its interesting that we frown on countries where citizens have no rights but our rights are systematically being taken away from us and we do nothing about it.

[Kizzy]

the best solution is not to employ people, but to self employ people

How the heck does that work?...Is it another scam to get out of paying employees holiday/sick pay and pensions?

[Vicky.]

How the heck does that work?...Is it another scam to get out of paying employees holiday/sick pay and pensions?

Pretty much.

The same as these 0 hour contracts that are getting more and more popular too ;)

[Kizzy]

Its disgusting! thought it was bad enough when arcadia (burtons) made all their warehouse staff redundant in 1990, then started recruiting but only on 13week temporary contracts with zero benefits..
There were people there all their working lives just chucked out, it was heartbeaking they were like families and they had been so proud to work there. :(

[Livia]

While people are moaning about the government it would be helpful to remember that the majority of people who voted in the last election, voted Conservative. more than two million more than voted for Labour. Of course, if everyone who was eligible to vote could be arsed, it might have been a very different outcome.

This isn't a law to allow nasty bosses to sack their workers at will. This is a law so that bosses can sack ineffective people who do not do their job well, who slack off and who are usually carried by other, more hardworking employees. Currently, you need semtex to get someone like that out of their job. That's hardly fair either on the people who own small businesses or the co-workers who end up carrying a passenger.

[Vicky.]

Tbh I think Iwould moan about any government, I think the 3 main parties are as bad as each other. Its a shame IMO that its unlikely any other party would even get a chance, though if they did they would probably turn out to be just as corrupt as the rest. They have good ideas at times, but they dont think them through properly. The latest example being universal credit. The idea behind it is brilliant, of course people should be better off through working than being on benefits. Unfortunately making it all online will make thousands of people lose their current jobs, many (especially older people) do not know how to use the internet and from the calculators that are available it seems that there is not much difference between what you would get in work in the current system, and the new one. Seems to be just another cost cutting exercise(such as sanctions, forcing ill people into free work, cutting housing costs) thats made out to be to help people into work, when its really not.

[Livia]

Tbh I think Iwould moan about any government, ...

I see what you're saying, but I do happen to think it should be easier to get rid of useless employees than it is. If that could be done while protecting the good workers, the hard workers, then, perfect.

It's hard to stand up for politicians sometimes because, although there are some really excellent ones (in all parties) the majority of them (in all parties) are in it for themselves and see being a politician not as being in a position to make the country strong and people's lives better, but as a job that pays a good pension with holidays longer than the teachers'.

Until we get some decent, honest people with common sense into Parliament we're going to be stuck going backwards and forwards between the privately educated champagne socialists that are the Labour party, and the chinless wonders that are the Conservatives, each one blaming the other, each set of supporters blaming the other... forever. So many people have so much to say about the state of the country but membership of political parties is dropping nationwide and parties struggle to get candidates at local level.

[Vicky.]

I see what you're saying, but I do happen to think it should be easier to get rid of useless employees than it is. If that could be done while protecting the good workers, the hard workers, then, perfect.


As it it currently though, employers have a 12 month period during which they can sack new workers for any reason, without all the court cases and such. Surely 12 months is long enough to find out if a member of staff is good for the job or not?

I think this new system is really open to abuse (as is everything else really though tbf). I really dont think there is a way to protect the good workers...

And I have a feeling (conspiracy going on here :laugh: ) that a few companies might use this along with the 'workfare' scheme. Sack current workers now that they can do so without having to find a reason, and bring in the freebies from the jobcentre.

[fruit_cake]

the tories making it easier for rich people, no surprises there!

[GiRTh]

As it it currently though, employers have a 12 month period during which they can sack new workers for any reason, without all the court cases and such. Surely 12 months is long enough to find out if a member of staff is good for the job or not?

I think this new system is really open to abuse (as is everything else really though tbf). I really dont think there is a way to protect the good workers...

And I have a feeling (conspiracy going on here :laugh: ) that a few companies might use this along with the 'workfare' scheme. Sack current workers now that they can do so without having to find a reason, and bring in the freebies from the jobcentre.Absolutely totally agree. Any kind of scheme is open to abuse but to make a law like this is setting a dangerous precedent. It effectively means workers have fewer rights for most of their working life. That cant be good for a country like ours.

[Livia]

As it it currently though, employers have a 12 month period** during which they can sack new workers for any reason, without all the court cases and such. Surely 12 months is long enough to find out if a member of staff is good for the job or not?

I think this new system is really open to abuse (as is everything else really though tbf). I really dont think there is a way to protect the good workers...

And I have a feeling (conspiracy going on here :laugh: ) that a few companies might use this along with the 'workfare' scheme. Sack current workers now that they can do so without having to find a reason, and bring in the freebies from the jobcentre.

**I think it's two years from April 2012.

While I'm sure a few companies may well do that, on the whole you can't buy experience. There aren't that many jobs, surely, that would benefit from a whole new batch of people every year or so, that have to be trained etc.

[Vicky.]

**I think it's two years from April 2012.

2 years...surely companies can decide in 2 years if a worker is good enough to keep on or not. Unless you get people who work the 2 years and then all of a sudden slack off since their job is safe. No doubt a tiny minority will, but I seriously doubt its enough to justify allowing companies to sack long term employees for no reason.

While I'm sure a few companies may well do that, on the whole you can't buy experience. There aren't that many jobs, surely, that would benefit from a whole new batch of people every year or so, that have to be trained etc.
Pretty much all unskilled jobs I would think. Tesco and poundland take full advantage of the workfare scheme already. Not much training goes into those types of jobs. Unfortuunately these unskilled jobs are likely to be all a lot of jobseekers could get in the first place, and if the companies are offered a choice between free workers, or paid workers, which are they gunna pick seriously? They are out to make money. So even less jobseekers will be placed in proper employment, as the employment they have a chance of getting is offered free employees. Bit of a catch 22 really.

[GiRTh]

**I think it's two years from April 2012.

While I'm sure a few companies may well do that, on the whole you can't buy experience. There aren't that many jobs, surely, that would benefit from a whole new batch of people every year or so, that have to be trained etc.But you admit it will probably happen? For example, my brother works for BT and has done for all his adult life they've tried to get rid of him a number of times. Not cuz his work is poor but cuz its more cost effective to employ two youngsters to do his job and pay them both a fraction of his high salary. I fear this law will open the door for employees to treat their staff like BT have treated him.

[Vicky.]

But you admit it will probably happen? For example, my brother works for BT and has done for all his adult life they've tried to get rid of him a number of times. Not cuz his work is poor but cuz its more cost effective to employ two youngsters to do his job and pay them both a fraction of his high salary. I fear this law will open the door for employees to treat their staff like BT have treated him.

Indeed.

With all these 'apprenticeship' schemes going about recently too, this is a massive concern.

Apparently now, places such as subway (sandwich shop) require apprentices...yup. You need to be qualified in sandwich making apparently. Working a year on £2.60 per hour or whatever, in order to qualify to make sandwiches for minimum wage. Madness.

[Kizzy]

While people are moaning about the government it would be helpful to remember that the majority of people who voted in the last election, voted Conservative. more than two million more than voted for Labour. Of course, if everyone who was eligible to vote could be arsed, it might have been a very different outcome.

This isn't a law to allow nasty bosses to sack their workers at will. This is a law so that bosses can sack ineffective people who do not do their job well, who slack off and who are usually carried by other, more hardworking employees. Currently, you need semtex to get someone like that out of their job. That's hardly fair either on the people who own small businesses or the co-workers who end up carrying a passenger.

More fool them, they didn't get enough to govern alone though thank god.
There have always been disciplinary proceedures, what was wrong with them?

[Livia]

But you admit it will probably happen? For example, my brother works for BT and has done for all his adult life they've tried to get rid of him a number of times. Not cuz his work is poor but cuz its more cost effective to employ two youngsters to do his job and pay them both a fraction of his high salary. I fear this law will open the door for employees to treat their staff like BT have treated him.

BT have to cut costs, they used to be a monopoly but now they have to compete with Virgin, o2, a myriad of ther providers. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying that's not tough on your brother (I have a cousin who works for BT and I know what you're saying is true because she's faced much the same treatment), but that's what life is now. There isn't any such thing as a job for life anymore.

[GiRTh]

BT have to cut costs, they used to be a monopoly but now they have to compete with Virgin, o2, a myriad of ther providers. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying that's not tough on your brother (I have a cousin who works for BT and I know what you're saying is true because she's faced much the same treatment), but that's what life is now. There isn't any such thing as a job for life anymore.Its a fact of life, for sure, but I dont think the government should be bringing in legislation to give employers more power to dismiss their workforce. It seems like a step backwards to me.

[Kizzy]

But you admit it will probably happen? For example, my brother works for BT and has done for all his adult life they've tried to get rid of him a number of times. Not cuz his work is poor but cuz its more cost effective to employ two youngsters to do his job and pay them both a fraction of his high salary. I fear this law will open the door for employees to treat their staff like BT have treated him.

Where are BT's call centres?...

[the truth]

How the heck does that work?...Is it another scam to get out of paying employees holiday/sick pay and pensions?

why should 1 individual take on board all of that expense and risk? especially when theres so many bad ,lazy unreliable workers, often drink addicted too>?
have you ever employed anyone? try it, you have to pay for everything, stamp, insurance, sick pay, products, repairs, salaries, overheads, rent, advertising, tax, fuel, etc etc thats before you even start to make any profit to pay yourself and feed your children

many people are self employed and work for companies. this makes them free agents to work in several jobs if they so wish. why should 1 individual trying to start a business take on board every single piece of risk to get started? isnt that individual also entitled to some time with his or her family too?

[fruit_cake]

we should all work for ourselves, basket weaving

[Jack_]

Not entirely sure of the legislation but one of my teacher's told us today of how there's a new law or something which allows for them to be sacked within a month, and that our new head teacher has told all staff that if a student is caught with a phone in a classroom and the teacher hasn't done anything about it, she'll have them sacked.

[Vicky.]

Not entirely sure of the legislation but one of my teacher's told us today of how there's a new law or something which allows for them to be sacked within a month, and that our new head teacher has told all staff that if a student is caught with a phone in a classroom and the teacher hasn't done anything about it, she'll have them sacked.

First example of abuse of the system :S

What the hell does the head expect...teachers to strip search their pupils before allowing them to enter the classroom :o

Unless the teacher was trying to scare y'all into listening to them regarding mobile phones :p

[Mystic Mock]

Lol this party is cracking me up for all the wrong reasons, im waiting for them to start rigging the Election results next.

[joeysteele]

I agree with making it easier to get rid of people employed who are causing problems for others in the workplace and who also don't pull their weight too.

The legislation needs to be designed however so that it is those cases that it is used for only.
From what I have read of this plan,I don't see enough safeguards to ensure that is the case.

It would seem to me to be another hastily put together plan from a suggestion by those of influence that may yet rebound on this Coalition.
As with welfare and benefit reform, the Nation does overall support looking at the benefits system but the action taken to reform or deal with it needs to be right as with this employment measure, I don't think the Govt has gone about all these things in the best and fairly planned way sadly.

My problem with this Coalition is that it does first and thinks,(usually being made to), much later,often after damage and distress has been caused already.
This Coaliton is now a near disaster,it is nowhere near on target as to its deficit reduction plan, it is doing costly reforms all over the place that should have waited until more secure times.
This new employment rule is likely to become another mess as it gets implemented.

[Kizzy]

why should 1 individual take on board all of that expense and risk? especially when theres so many bad ,lazy unreliable workers, often drink addicted too>?
have you ever employed anyone? try it, you have to pay for everything, stamp, insurance, sick pay, products, repairs, salaries, overheads, rent, advertising, tax, fuel, etc etc thats before you even start to make any profit to pay yourself and feed your children

many people are self employed and work for companies. this makes them free agents to work in several jobs if they so wish. why should 1 individual trying to start a business take on board every single piece of risk to get started? isnt that individual also entitled to some time with his or her family too?

I haven't no, but if I did I would firstly check the personal/career references and vet my staff via interview..
Hopefully this would weed out the drunks?
In my mind if you are an employer the onus is on you to provide a contract of employment to safeguard said employee and yourself.
What this contract contains is up to yourself and is agreed upon by your staff before signing.

I don't know where you get the idea I was suggesting that as an employer you wouldn't get time with family?..
Bottom line is it is unworkable, to have casual workers register as self employed, how would they pay tax? 4 jobs, with 4 salaries, over 4 differing timescales?

The fact of the matter is any employer knows now they have the unemployed by the short and curlies!
they need you more than you need them, and so wages have been driven down in all sectors as supply exceeds demand.
If you think this is good for bosses bank balances you would be right, if you think it is good for society and the country as a whole you would be very very wrong.

[the truth]

I haven't no, but if I did I would firstly check the personal/career references and vet my staff via interview..
Hopefully this would weed out the drunks?
In my mind if you are an employer the onus is on you to provide a contract of employment to safeguard said employee and yourself.
What this contract contains is up to yourself and is agreed upon by your staff before signing.

I don't know where you get the idea I was suggesting that as an employer you wouldn't get time with family?..
Bottom line is it is unworkable, to have casual workers register as self employed, how would they pay tax? 4 jobs, with 4 salaries, over 4 differing timescales?

The fact of the matter is any employer knows now they have the unemployed by the short and curlies!
they need you more than you need them, and so wages have been driven down in all sectors as supply exceeds demand.
If you think this is good for bosses bank balances you would be right, if you think it is good for society and the country as a whole you would be very very wrong.


No this is not the reality. There are vast numbers of unreliable people with poor work ethics and major drink and drugs issues. When a worker lets down his employer, that employer can lose a 5 year contract in one day? That means he is losing tens of thousands of pounds of income on the back of one unreliable , lazy sometimes dishonest worker, who has decided he has something better to do that day.

Business doesnt have any sympathy. if a company needs £2 million of cargo delivered and it doesnt get there on time. they cancel, they sue for damages and they dont use that company again. the entrepreneur/the boss is left footing the bills, the compensation claims, the insurance, the wages, the lost contracts and the massive overdrafts?

you can vet as much as you like and yes of course vetting is crucial I agree. But people dont exist on paper, they exist in reality. in a nation of binge drinkers, the work ethic and consistent reliable behaviour falls and this has enormous impact on business and business bosses. the attitude thats built in recent years is to hate rich people. but theres a massive difference between a multi millionaire overpaid footballer and a person trying to start his/her own business to create wealth and jobs. people who start businesses should get massive support. sadly they get nothing , no support whatsoever, then if people think they are successful , they get jealousy and workers trying to rip them off and take advantage. very few understand or even begin to empathise with the pressure of an entrepreneur starting a business in this country

[Kizzy]

No this is not the reality. There are vast numbers of unreliable people with poor work ethics and major drink and drugs issues. When a worker lets down his employer, that employer can lose a 5 year contract in one day? That means he is losing tens of thousands of pounds of income on the back of one unreliable , lazy sometimes dishonest worker, who has decided he has something better to do that day.

Business doesnt have any sympathy. if a company needs £2 million of cargo delivered and it doesnt get there on time. they cancel, they sue for damages and they dont use that company again. the entrepreneur/the boss is left footing the bills, the compensation claims, the insurance, the wages, the lost contracts and the massive overdrafts?

you can vet as much as you like and yes of course vetting is crucial I agree. But people dont exist on paper, they exist in reality. in a nation of binge drinkers, the work ethic and consistent reliable behaviour falls and this has enormous impact on business and business bosses. the attitude thats built in recent years is to hate rich people. but theres a massive difference between a multi millionaire overpaid footballer and a person trying to start his/her own business to create wealth and jobs. people who start businesses should get massive support. sadly they get nothing , no support whatsoever, then if people think they are successful , they get jealousy and workers trying to rip them off and take advantage. very few understand or even begin to empathise with the pressure of an entrepreneur starting a business in this country

:conf: Again you have lost me in a maze of bizarre hypotheticals...
What about the 1000's of employees that go above and beyond for the companies they work for?...Working unpaid overtime, working on days off, bending over backwards to get orders filled....What of those?

Where you have got this idea the the rich are hated is beyond me too, people who make money by exploiting vulnerable people for example wonga.com charging 4000% interest for unsecured loans to the poorest members of society that is loathsome and morally corrupt.
But the chairman writes employment policies and donates to the conservative party so its ok.

I am well aware there is a difference between a millionaire businessman and a footballer...Why you threw that in the mix is beyond me.
People usually only react badly to employers if they feel they are being exploited, undervalued, overworked, discriminated against or pressured, it works both ways if you want your workforce to respect you you must respect them.

I can empathise with entrepreneurs in this country, I can also empathise with the millions of decent, honest, hardworking unemployed people crying out for a full time permanant job with a living wage to support their families!