special effects better 30 years ago? why?

[the truth]

movies and music videos special effects and over editing have actually gotten worse over the past 20 odd years (movies over 30 odd years)

like the original star wars trilogy, the american werewolf in london(legendary movie, the sequel had a cartoon monster? pathetic) , zulu, willy wonka (watched it with the kids recently , the old classic was way better than the remake) , spartacus, the greatest story ever told, the italian job(1000 times better than the remake)ben hur, cleopatra, james bond movies etc

all looked infinitely more real and better than todays movies, most of which look like humans stood in cartoon worlds...take the hulk movies? he was a 20 foot high green cartoon? it was just pitiful

even james bond, the jet pack and the magnificent sets in goldfinger looked magnificent in technicolour, bond looked like a real regular albeit super cool man, the spy who loved me, the sets were awesome, the underwater car scene awesome....goldeneye was terrific though...the recent movies have gone down the route of cgi more....it looks absurd, unreal and lazy

the art work and the sets they built in the 60s 70s 80s took far greater time and far greater attention to detail....nowadays we think were so clever with cgi and computer graphics, but theyre lazy , poor to look at, they take away the real human interaction, its just boring and looks rubbish

instead of fawning over these cgi people and editors as geniuses, lets be more honest, its rubbish

we need to get a balance, build proper movie sets again, get the 100s of extras (as they did in braveheart which was visually awesome, but it was a one off movie sadly) use the cgi if necessary but use it sparingly. try and get the movies back to being magical, human and at least set in some sort of reality

even moonraker with roger moore set in space looked more human than the recent stuff

I dont want to see comptuer generated images of people and animals and monster, I want to see human beings with proper expressions on their faces, I dont want to see space invaders in 3g , i want to see the next marlon brando and bette davis, the next bogey and bacall, acting out magnificent screenplays, telling majestic stories , did casablanca need a cartoon robot in the middle to liven it up? nope, the chemistry, the acting, the drama, the story, the romance, the screenplay , the human strengths and weakness lit up the screen more than all the cgi in the world

keep it real hollywood and lt us use our imagination:wavey:

[microscope]

I'm not a fan of CGI to be honest. I would prefer to watch 'Land that time forgot' with stop frame animation and models, rather than everything created on a computer. Also the way they were filmed was a lot better and the story. I don't watch a lot of new movies. Just don't like them.

[the truth]

I'm not a fan of CGI to be honest. I would prefer to watch 'Land that time forgot' with stop frame animation and models, rather than everything created on a computer. Also the way they were filmed was a lot better and the story. I don't watch a lot of new movies. Just don't like them.

agreed

goldfinger and doctor no are nearly 50 years old with much smaller budgets yet imho they kick the new daniel craig movies into touch...even the pink panther movies looked better on screen than all this computer nonsense....its just a cheap way to make movies. I detest it.

[Marsh.]

You're versatile I'll give you that.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Hm I have to write a 2000 word report on the evolution of special effects. I'm saving this thread to read opinions. :amazed: Maybe i'll just steal your words. :amazed:

[Mystic Mock]

Tbf it's not just films I also think TV Shows are to obsessed with big budgets but they don't know what to do with it, some of the sets even look fake compared to how they used to look.

[billy123]

No they were crap 30 years ago flame filled explosions in space and the such in star wars is just so pants the only reason they are so fondly remembered is nostalgia for an era that has past.
Some of the techniques used now are just stunning and some of them dont work and wont be seen again just the same as 30 years ago.

The next step is the 48 frames per second films which some say they hate and others say look great 48fps will become the norm once people get used to it.

These things evolve at a fair rate but some just get stuck with a nostalgic view of how things looked when they were young and just choose to remember them as "better"

[the truth]

No they were crap 30 years ago flame filled explosions in space and the such in star wars is just so pants the only reason they are so fondly remembered is nostalgia for an era that has past.
Some of the techniques used now are just stunning and some of them dont work and wont be seen again just the same as 30 years ago.

The next step is the 48 frames per second films which some say they hate and others say look great 48fps will become the norm once people get used to it.

These things evolve at a fair rate but some just get stuck with a nostalgic view of how things looked when they were young and just choose to remember them as "better"

I 100% disagree (surprise surprise) todays editors and film makers have gotten way too lazy complacent and arrogant in cutting corners and getting their cgi people to rustle them up a computer movie and cartoon looking army...I guess it saves the film makers all the hassle of , building film sets, getting 100s of extras, costuming them all up, oh and getting a good script and story also seems surplus to requirements...who needs writers when you have a 20 foot cartoon hulk? even actors themselves admit they hate acting next to blank screens painted over with cgi, they admit theres no chemistry with a blank screen

theres an old french word that everyones forgotten in film making and on the internet, the word is rapport...if us lot were sitting in a bar wed all be taking the pis% but face to face human interaction is infinitely better than this fake cyber world....look at the opening scene of godfather.....brando and his fellow film makers in 5 minutes encapsulates something that cgi and internet debates couldnt capture in 100 years.....its simple natural interaction,,,,,the kitten on his lap obviously steals the scene from brando, but its still a masterclass...the expressions, the listening, the timing, the story telling, the human emotions of empathy, rage, hatred, compassion, understanding, respect etc etc It encapsulates so much in so little time with no need to show bullets enetring peoples brains in close up , no need for any cartoon animals or fancy dan over the top , mili second editing, its all there in 5 minutes of genius....the cgi boys can go to their computer analytical statistical data bulls*it but they will never create this magic

these film makers over using their toys are frankly idiots....if they enetered the dragons den with all their gizmos theyd be booted out....most of the gadgets are over used and unnecessary...the over complicate things that should be simple....the simplest way of showing something on film is nearly always the best

the arrogant and oh so predictable retort from those pro-cgi and over editing supporters is always the same, anyone who doesnt love it , is that we are not moving with the times, I say rubbish. thats the type of drivel that called tony benn a dinosaur, when in fact he was more honest and enlightened than any other british MP in parliament. thats the type of thinking that sees us knock down wonderful old buildings because we cant be bothered to take the time to restore them. disrespect your finest traditions and works of art at your peril.

sometimes sticking to old traditions that work is the most revlutionary thing to do, sometimes to build and grow what you have instead of knocking it all down and doing everytong totally different, is the best way. look at wimbledon? infinite architects have demanded the old place be demolished and rebuilt using the new stadia engineering, but no wimbledon has stuck to its basic premise and kept the grass and the same stadia, but its grown and built on its stadia and on its values....the roof, the line call technology and challenges, the coverage and so on , or take 6 nations rugby, it was 4 nations in the 1950s then the french joined then the italians, result? wimbledon just like the Open golf or the 6 nations rugby is still the best tournament in the world


no doubt Im confusing you all now, as the Uk has become so stupid we cant actually discuss 3 topics at once and we cant recognise how things are interconnected in a social tapestry.

songs like movies like videos move forward and blossom just like a flower through the season, you can speed up the process or look at it from different angles but ultimately you have to have a story to tell, the visual gizmos you use should merely be used to tell your story..GIZMOS LIKE CARS AND COMPUTERS ARE OVER USED AND ABUSED, PEOPLE ALWAYS FORGET ,THEY ARE MERELY THE MEANS TO AN END NOT AN END IN ITSELF.most of the over edited movies, tv shows, videos are simplyhidingbehind the gadgetry to hide the fact theyre badly written and simply do not believe in their story in the first plce.

do you honestly believe todays film makers could make once upon a time in the west? Godfather? birdman from alcatraz? Angels with dirty faces?

I doubt it, they dont have the training, the knowledge or the patience, then again you wouldnt expect computer programmers to understand the movie business, only an idiot would think otherwise

[billy123]

Lets just stand still forever then instead and watch this.
bUcRedRovJM

The movies you mention are of an era nostalgia is a powerful thing even the things you revere were never possible without progression.
Black and white or colour?

How many lines do you want on your tv?

90
96
180
243
343
375
405
440
441
450
455
525
605
625
819
1080i
1080p

(every next level was called high definition and always will be)



Thats the progression the films you mention wouldnt have been possible without it.

HALT LETS STOP HERE THE TRUTH HAS AN ERA HE LIKES.

No sorry technology marches on regardless of nostalgia great/greater films will and have been made and will continue to be made.

My grandad used to tell me that some old crap he liked was the golden era of films just like some people now try and tell me their golden era was the best.

Sorry the truth but i disagree you might have found your comfy enjoyable level as i probably have but this new fangled stuff is just another progression just because you dont like it doesnt mean anything it just means its moved on and left you/us behind im afraid.

[the truth]

Lets just stand still forever then instead and watch this.
bUcRedRovJM

The movies you mention are of an era nostalgia is a powerful thing even the things you revere were never possible without progression.
Black and white or colour?

How many lines do you want on your tv?

90
96
180
243
343
375
405
440
441
450
455
525
605
625
819
1080i
1080p

(every next level was called high definition and always will be)



Thats the progression the films you mention wouldnt have been possible without it.

HALT LETS STOP HERE THE TRUTH HAS AN ERA HE LIKES.

No technology marches on regardless of nostalgia great/greater films will and have been made and will continue to be made.

My grandad used to tell me that some old crap he liked was the golden era of films just like some people now try and tell me their golden era was the best.

Sorry the truth but i disagree.

The gadget makers, car manufacturers, top architects and engineers and scientists are geniuses, I take my hat off to them all....its the idiots (music and movie producers editors etc or in other field car manufacturers who abuse the technology to bleed more money from customers by making cars infinitely more difficult to fix or rebuild) its these people who abuse the evolving technology that ruin it for everyone

much of this is regression.....take a look at architecture? you going to tell me all the new builds are better than the old ones? thats absurd...these idiot politicians in ediburgh for example had to spend £400 million on a new age political temple to themselves that looks more like a pile of liquorice allsorts, in a magnificent masterpiece of a city like edinburgh these clowns couldnt find a nice building to fit 50 useless policians and save tax payers £400 million? oh not but they used your exact same argument, its prgress and anyone who questions it is a dinosaur....the building will of course collapse and need to be rebuilt within 50 years? progression or regression?you decide

I dont believe in golden eras, theyre your words. |I just think some ideas are good some are bad, in all things a balance must be drawn between techniques used and by what youre trying to achieve. the editing inventions can each be looked at one a case by case basis, but dont lose sight of the objective, to improve the movie or the show or the product, to tell the story, often the gadgetry is overused and reduces the quality of the product...do these producers even ask people for their opinions?

The balance is totally out of whack in the movie and the music business now, the actors get £20 million the directors too are overpaid and the writers are simply not encouraged to write... Its all down to a fixed formula that serves the fat cats, just like most other walks of life, the game is fixed... The markets will all keep booming and collapsing and many of these things will rectify itself eventually and we will no doubt look back at some of the music videos and movies made this decade and shake our heads in embarassment. sadly the mass control and the dumbing down is difficult to reverse. when oxford graduates can count, what hope is there for the education system?

as for called progression, the majority of inventions are either bought in and kept by the corporations, or stolen or they employ thousands of engineers and own the intellectual property rights on all the inventions these workers create...the workers get a pittiful little bonus for inventions that may make or save millions...meanwhile inventions like electric cars are shelved for a 100 years, which could have saved the planet mass pollution.

the state of movies in this area is just another corner of the world the huge fat cats have controlled corrupted and demystified and we like the dumbed down idiots we are, dont recognise and queue in the rain at the boxing day sales for the next gadget

[lostalex]

Special effects are sooooo much better now.

[billy123]

The gadget makers, car manufacturers, top architects and engineers and scientists are geniuses, I take my hat off to them all....its the idiots (music and movie producers editors etc or in other field car manufacturers who abuse the technology to bleed more money from customers by making cars infinitely more difficult to fix or rebuild) its these people who abuse the evolving technology that ruin it for everyone

much of this is regression.....take a look at architecture? you going to tell me all the new builds are better than the old ones? thats absurd...these idiot politicians in ediburgh for example had to spend £400 million on a new age political temple to themselves that looks more like a pile of liquorice allsorts, in a magnificent masterpiece of a city like edinburgh these clowns couldnt find a nice building to fit 50 useless policians and save tax payers £400 million? oh not but they used your exact same argument, its prgress and anyone who questions it is a dinosaur....the building will of course collapse and need to be rebuilt within 50 years? progression or regression?you decide

I dont believe in golden eras, theyre your words. |I just think some ideas are good some are bad, in all things a balance must be drawn between techniques used and by what youre trying to achieve. The balance is totally out of whack in the movie and the music business now. Its all down to a fixed formula that serves the fat cats, just like most other walks of life, the game is fixed... The markets will all keep booming and collapsing and many of these things will rectify itself eventually and we will no doubt look back at some of the music videos and movies made this decade and shake our heads in embarassment. sadly the mass control and the dumbing down is difficult to reverse. when oxford graduates can count, what hope is there for the education system?

as for called progression, the majorityof inventions are either bought in and kept by the corporations, or stolen or they employ thousands of engineers and own the intellectual property rights on all the inventions these workers create...the workers get a pittiful little bonus for inventions that may make or save millions.

the state of movies in this area is just another corner of the world the huge fat cats have controlled corrupted and demystified and we like the dumbed down idiots we are, dont recognise and queue in the rain at the boxing day sales for the next gadgetNo you are right not all progression is positive especially in the last 20 years and thats due to privatisation and capitalism those things rely on eternal growth which is impossible and that applys to the film industry,housing and just about everything!
It leads to doing things cheaper than any competitors which brings the crap but it also drives the will to better things that is a positive.

We both have valid points and hats off to you for us being able to debate it without it having to be an argument.

I despair sometimes on tibb arguing your point of view doesnt mean you have to argue.

Bravo to the truth.

[lostalex]

bob and truth, get a room, ffs.

[Mrluvaluva]

I was watching The Thing (2011) last week and I was thinking how much better the "effects" were in the original film. The ones at the start were almost laughable to be honest, and this is the case in many recently for me.

[SharkAttack]

Special effects are sooooo much better now.

Unless it's the SyFy channel.

[SharkAttack]

Kubrick did a fine job with his effects. 2001 especially. But even Lars von Trier, who helped start the Dogme 95 movement ("rules to create filmmaking based on the traditional values of story, acting, and theme, and excluding the use of elaborate special effects or technology"), has used quite a bit of technology to give his films some more punch recently. And it's all digital. Wake up, the Truth, it's not 1912 anymore. But...get rid of the green room, and keep things outside the studios for television shows. Compromise! http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp32/sharkattack_torrential/ohmy.gif

[lostalex]

stop entertaining this ridiculous concept. special effects are a MILLION times better now than they were 30 years ago. anyone who says otherwise, is a pathetic attention seeking knob.

OMG phones were so much better 30 years ago because they never charged you roaming fees!!!! yea, that's because they were BOLTED into your *******ing wall. get over it.

[billy123]

bob and truth, get a room, ffs.
Your next. :joker:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/530992_544587025555665_746910312_n.jpg

[lostalex]

Everything, yes, EVERYTHING, is better than it was 30 years ago. There is NOTHING that was better 30 years ago than it is now.

[lostalex]

Your next. :joker:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/530992_544587025555665_746910312_n.jpg


awww, it thinks it's a top... lol

(you're)

[the truth]

Everything, yes, EVERYTHING, is better than it was 30 years ago. There is NOTHING that was better 30 years ago than it is now.

Everything is better? what idealistic nonsense.....some things are better , some have stood still, some are worse, progress is usually 2 steps forward , 1 to the side and 1 back, the debts? the architecture? terrorism? the industries? mental health? farming and agriculture? Fishing? pub industry? town centres/small family businesses? Global warming/climate change? movies? music videos? stories/writers? etc etc

[Mystic Mock]

stop entertaining this ridiculous concept. special effects are a MILLION times better now than they were 30 years ago. anyone who says otherwise, is a pathetic attention seeking knob.

OMG phones were so much better 30 years ago because they never charged you roaming fees!!!! yea, that's because they were BOLTED into your *******ing wall. get over it.

I think everyone knows that phones are much better now.:joker:

But yes CGI does stink badly imo, it needs to go.

[the truth]

I think everyone knows that phones are much better now.:joker:

But yes CGI does stink badly imo, it needs to go.

all technology is better but the abuse of technology is rife

[Mystic Mock]

Well not all CGI should go as some are good but some shows and films overdo them completely and it makes them look stupid.

[Alf]

Everything, yes, EVERYTHING, is better than it was 30 years ago. There is NOTHING that was better 30 years ago than it is now.
so lets take the music business, your stating that every act who are currentley making music and i mean every act are all better than the beatles
that's a bold statement, some may even think your deluded

[the truth]

so lets take the music business, your stating that every act who are currentley making music and i mean every act are all better than the beatles
that's a bold statement, some may even think your deluded

yes alix also thinks every music act in the world is also better than, the stones, the who, the clash, elvis, the jacksons, stevie wonder, frank sinatra, johnny cash, john denver, louis armstrong, marvin gaye,the beatles, jimi hendrix, etc etc etc insane

[GypsyGoth]

Special effect were not better in movies 30 years ago. I've seen movies from 30 years ago and they look fake, and the tricks they use are obvious. Now there are a lot of good old movies, but to say they have better special effect than modern ones is wrong. Maybe you like the older special effect more, but that doesn't make them better.

The likes of this is in movies now
http://i.imgur.com/c4pSh.jpg

[Roy Mars III]

The special effects today are better in terms of how realistic they look, but the special effects 30 years were better in terms of what they added to the film and the skill that they took to pull them off.

Movies today are too processed and scientific, if that makes sense. It takes out the human element that was in movies of the past. Movies used to be an art form, now they are more of a business turning out newer and newer improved products. I will stick with the movies of the 60s, 70s and 80s personally.

[the truth]

Special effect were not better in movies 30 years ago. I've seen movies from 30 years ago and they look fake, and the tricks they use are obvious. Now there are a lot of good old movies, but to say they have better special effect than modern ones is wrong. Maybe you like the older special effect more, but that doesn't make them better.

The likes of this is in movies now
http://i.imgur.com/c4pSh.jpg

this looks utter sh%t

[GypsyGoth]

this looks utter sh%t

:suspect:

Well your opinion on it doesn't change the fact that it is far superior to anything that was created by special effects 30 years ago.

[Marsh.]

It depends what movie your talking about.

The Avatar CGI is amazing compared to SFX from 30+ years ago. For a movie set in another world, but yes it still looks fake and cartoony.

The other SFX which are supposed to blend in and go unnoticed in regular films, like filling in backdrops and other details are remarkable nowadays and you barely notice them.

It's just films tend to go for a SFX bonanza to get all the kids in and rake in the money.

[Scarlett.]

CGI is amazing, when used well (yes I know it's not all CGI, but there is quite a bit in there)
a21_WMiTAVE

[Mystic Mock]

Special effect were not better in movies 30 years ago. I've seen movies from 30 years ago and they look fake, and the tricks they use are obvious. Now there are a lot of good old movies, but to say they have better special effect than modern ones is wrong. Maybe you like the older special effect more, but that doesn't make them better.

The likes of this is in movies now
http://i.imgur.com/c4pSh.jpg

While that looks nice it never felt like a real world to me unlike films from 5 to 10 years ago even.

[the truth]

even superman movies made 30 years ago looked better and were infinitely better than the recent superman movie....one of the few movies that utilised special effects well , was the spiderman trilogy, now they were superb...its more about the abuse of cgi and the fact film-makers and music viedo producers are hiding behond cgi instead of working on other aspects of their productions.

[SharkAttack]

I remember watching the first Jurassic Park. Job well done! Cheap CGI vs the good stuff is the difference. But I usually watch films more focused on good dialogue, acting, and environment/music aura. It's rare that you get the good writing with the cheap effects, though. Production spends for both a good script *and* the effects, or not much on either.

[the truth]

cgi looks awful and it takes away all sense of reality and loses the viewers involvement
it also is overused so as to distract from the fact there is barely a plot a story or any intelligent dialogue
now take james bond, why do you think they still employ stuntmen and women? because they know the more real the stunt the better it looks and the more enjoyable it is...this is one major reason why this is the most successful franchise in the history of movies

[Mystic Mock]

Tbf not all films are gonna be as big as James Bond.

[Roy Mars III]

the best special effects ever were in Dune.

Avatar looks terrible, in my opinion.

[the truth]

the best special effects ever were in Dune.

Avatar looks terrible, in my opinion.

the original star wars trilogy was infinitely more exciting visually than the next trilogy...the science has advanced but the movies had not....its produced overpaid lazy movie studios, cutting corners and making movies on computers with less human interaction and weaker scripts. im not blamingthe science Im blamingthe over -reliance on it

[Roy Mars III]

the original star wars trilogy was infinitely more exciting visually than the next trilogy...the science has advanced but the movies had not....its produced overpaid lazy movie studios, cutting corners and making movies on computers with less human interaction and weaker scripts. im not blamingthe science Im blamingthe over -reliance on it

I agree 100% with you . Films have become too manufactured and polished. They have lost their human element

[the truth]

I agree 100% with you . Films have become too manufactured and polished. They have lost their human element

its just a microcosm of the humanization that happens across the world when corporattions get too powerful rich and complacent....they stop innovating and stop speaking to each other and just churn out the same manufactured soulless rubbish ...the only thing that makes them change a bit is when the money dries up....I look forwrad to the day (and the day will come) when smaller businesses eventually detsroy these worldwide monopolies....its already happenning thanks to online shopping ...the likes of woolworth were just the beginning.....sadly in movies and music it may take longer to see real changes....I would advise ALL true artists to go with being as independent and innovative as possible....the jackosn 5 for example are best remembered for a yellow pyjama outfit, sewn by their mom...not a slogan or an advert in sight.....the world is bored to tears of manufactured drivel...problem is right now, its such a monopoly there is no competition...rebellion starts now

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

movies and music videos special effects and over editing have actually gotten worse over the past 20 odd years (movies over 30 odd years)

like the original star wars trilogy, the american werewolf in london(legendary movie, the sequel had a cartoon monster? pathetic) , zulu, willy wonka (watched it with the kids recently , the old classic was way better than the remake) , spartacus, the greatest story ever told, the italian job(1000 times better than the remake)ben hur, cleopatra, james bond movies etc

all looked infinitely more real and better than todays movies, most of which look like humans stood in cartoon worlds...take the hulk movies? he was a 20 foot high green cartoon? it was just pitiful

even james bond, the jet pack and the magnificent sets in goldfinger looked magnificent in technicolour, bond looked like a real regular albeit super cool man, the spy who loved me, the sets were awesome, the underwater car scene awesome....goldeneye was terrific though...the recent movies have gone down the route of cgi more....it looks absurd, unreal and lazy

the art work and the sets they built in the 60s 70s 80s took far greater time and far greater attention to detail....nowadays we think were so clever with cgi and computer graphics, but theyre lazy , poor to look at, they take away the real human interaction, its just boring and looks rubbish

instead of fawning over these cgi people and editors as geniuses, lets be more honest, its rubbish

we need to get a balance, build proper movie sets again, get the 100s of extras (as they did in braveheart which was visually awesome, but it was a one off movie sadly) use the cgi if necessary but use it sparingly. try and get the movies back to being magical, human and at least set in some sort of reality

even moonraker with roger moore set in space looked more human than the recent stuff

I dont want to see comptuer generated images of people and animals and monster, I want to see human beings with proper expressions on their faces, I dont want to see space invaders in 3g , i want to see the next marlon brando and bette davis, the next bogey and bacall, acting out magnificent screenplays, telling majestic stories , did casablanca need a cartoon robot in the middle to liven it up? nope, the chemistry, the acting, the drama, the story, the romance, the screenplay , the human strengths and weakness lit up the screen more than all the cgi in the world

keep it real hollywood and lt us use our imagination:wavey:

Right this is my essay. Thanks Truth. :wavey:

[Niamh.]

I remember watching the first Jurassic Park. Job well done! Cheap CGI vs the good stuff is the difference. But I usually watch films more focused on good dialogue, acting, and environment/music aura. It's rare that you get the good writing with the cheap effects, though. Production spends for both a good script *and* the effects, or not much on either.

Me too, It was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen, there'd been nothing like it before

[the truth]

Can i also make a shout out for the cirocopter in you only live twice....they do exist , the inventor is an englishman, you can rent them or buy one for around £90,000 theyre sort of mini helicopters, the excitement I felt when I first saw them I cant describe and I still want to fly one....these movies create magic that lasts a lifetime, enjoy

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Why are none of you talking about iron man. Does anybody know where I could find a docu on how he was made to fly? Can't find anything relevant enough on youtube or google. :(

[the truth]

forget iron man, check out the jet pack and girocopter actually really used by sean connerys james bond. Now ask yourself why we dont see more of them? exactly when does a girocopter or jet pack go out of fashion?