Abortion - right or wrong?

[Redway]

Just caught the Free Speech show on BBC3 and it got me thinking...do you think it's right, wrong or right but there needs to be a limit on it...?

[Munchkins]

There should be a limit.. 20 weeks i think, lower than what it currently is, but it is the woman's choice in my opinion, she comes before the unborn baby :)

[Jack_]

Ha, been watching it as well. Another thread coming up...

Right, but perhaps the limit should be set back a few weeks.

[Lee.]

Wrong wrong wrong... but if it has to happen, then they need to reduce the time limit

[Munchkins]

Do think this debate is worn out though, most people stick to their views.. no matter what the opposing view is

[Niamh.]

Wrong wrong wrong... but if it has to happen, then they need to reduce the time limit

This.

[Jake.]

Its down to the situation. A woman shouldn't have to keep a child in some examples, the main one being if she was raped.

[Jake.]

I clicked on the wrong option, I meant to click that it depends on the situation

[Munchkins]

It's not as simple as "Right or "Wrong" though
in my opinion its a neccessary evil in the world.

[MTVN]

Accidentally clicked the top option but I do think there should be a limit

Even if you morally oppose it, making it illegal just causes so many practical problems

[GiRTh]

Pro Choice.

[Redway]

Pro Choice.

What about women who use abortion for contraception?

[Roy Mars III]

do not agree with it personally, but think it should be allowed but limited

[Marsh.]

I always think it's wrong. But there are certain drastic situations where I think it's an understandable decision to make.
People who use it as a contraceptive method make me sick.

But whichever way, the limit needs to be dropped.

[Ammi]

..I'm still undecided on this..although on one hand I think there is a right to life...there are some shockingly dreadful parents who should never have had children....but then, I guess those wouldn't be the ones to abort.....

....I'll think about it more...but yes the term should be much less...I thought it was about 12 weeks anyway, I need to read up more...

[MTVN]

Nobody actually uses it as contraception though do they, doubt you'll get many woman who'll say "oh don't bother with a condom I can just get another abortion lol x"

[rk3388]

In my opinion it is wrong and i dont see how anyone can classify it as "right" . Does that mean i think it should be illegal? no. I think it should be up to the person who's getting it.

[Kizzy]

The limit needs to be lowered, due to medical advances babies are now viable at 24 weeks.

[Redway]

I always think it's wrong. But there are certain drastic situations where I think it's an understandable decision to make.
People who use it as a contraceptive method make me sick.

But whichever way, the limit needs to be dropped.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. I understand drastic cases (such as rape) but I don't think there's one single baby who couldn't be put up for adoption if the mother didn't want it. There are plenty of people out there dying for a child and if the mother doesn't want it there are always possible alternatives.

[Marsh.]

Nobody actually uses it as contraception though do they, doubt you'll get many woman who'll say "oh don't bother with a condom I can just get another abortion lol x"

Well, that's taking it too literally.

But there are women who think "Oh well, I'm pregnant. Just easily have it terminated" that make me sick.

Although, these days, the morning after pill is like a form of abortion.

[GypsyGoth]

I'm prochoice.

[Cherie]

Nobody actually uses it as contraception though do they, doubt you'll get many woman who'll say "oh don't bother with a condom I can just get another abortion lol x"



Unfortunately it is a lot more common than you think...my sister worked in Guys Hospital about 15 years ago, and she used to see the same women coming back time and again for an abortion, of course that was before the morning after pill...maybe its different now..

[Nedusa]

Abortion is acceptable in cases of pregnancy through rape and where there is a serious risk of severe physical or mental deformity. Otherwise a healthy baby should never be terminated... That's my view in any case...!!!!

[Tom4784]

I don't like how the poll is worded, I don't think that Abortion is right or wrong but I believe that it's a woman's choice if she wants one or not and it's not down to politicians to tell someone what they can or cannot do with their own body.

[Marsh.]

Except once you pass a certain period in your pregnancy, it's no longer just her "own body" but another life inside of her.

I always hate that the father never gets a say either, that is wrong too IMO. Takes two to make a baby.

[Mystic Mock]

It depends on the circumstances like if the woman was raped then I believe she should be allowed to have an abortion.

[Ammi]

..but then, it's no less of a life because of the circumstances..or any less of an innocent...

..surely it's either right or wrong..unless medical complications come into it..for the mother or the baby...

[MeMyselfAndI]

Completely wrong, but if the girl was like raped then maybe not.

[Redway]

It depends on the circumstances like if the woman was raped then I believe she should be allowed to have an abortion.

I see your point but it's still a life, regardless of the circumstances.

[Marsh.]

..but then, it's no less of a life because of the circumstances..or any less of an innocent...

..surely it's either right or wrong..unless medical complications come into it..for the mother or the baby...

Yes, very true.

[MTVN]

I see your point but it's still a life, regardless of the circumstances.

Well an embryo isn't exactly a sentient being, and in any case if it's going to ruin the mothers life then she should have a right to the abortion, could also argue it isn't fair for a child to be born into that kind of environment

Anyway, you illegalise abortion and we'll just see the rise of back street abortions which would be a disaster

[Ammi]

..whatever the circumstances of conception..it doesn't detract from the unborn life...surely the trauma of rape wouldn't be lessened by the added trauma of abortion...

[joeysteele]

Personally I am against it, however I would never force my opinion on this onto any Woman having a child.
I would vote,if I had a vote, to certainly lower the limit by a good way from what it is now though.

[Mystic Mock]

I see your point but it's still a life, regardless of the circumstances.

Yes but it's not a life that the woman wanted to create, and what if the child searches for her in the future and she doesn't want to know the child? then don't forget if they are severely disabled aswell, it's cruel to watch them suffer I would imagine.

[Ammi]

Well an embryo isn't exactly a sentient being, and in any case if it's going to ruin the mothers life then she should have a right to the abortion, could also argue it isn't fair for a child to be born into that kind of environment

Anyway, you illegalise abortion and we'll just see the rise of back street abortions which would be a disaster

..but then who's to decide what would ruin a person's life..that's the problem...

[Cherie]

Except once you pass a certain period in your pregnancy, it's no longer just her "own body" but another life inside of her.

I always hate that the father never gets a say either, that is wrong too IMO. Takes two to make a baby.

That is a very good point.

[Redway]

Well an embryo isn't exactly a sentient being, and in any case if it's going to ruin the mothers life then she should have a right to the abortion, could also argue it isn't fair for a child to be born into that kind of environment

I see both sides to the argument (as well as what you're saying) but I do believe life starts at fertilsation, no matter just how undeveloped it may be at this stage. But obviously you're more than free to disagree. :p

[Ammi]

Yes but it's not a life that the woman wanted to create, and what if the child searches for her in the future and she doesn't want to know the child? then don't forget if they are severely disabled aswell, it's cruel to watch them suffer I would imagine.


..could you not assume that anyone having an abortion other than for medical reasons, didn't want to create that life...?

[Mystic Mock]

..but then who's to decide what would ruin a person's life..that's the problem...

No but we're saying that if the woman was raped and has got pregnant that she should have the option of aborting the child if she wants to.

[nicole_burks]

If a girl was stupid and got her self knocked-up she should be the one to take the price for it.
On the other hand, a women was raped she could carry out the full term and put the child up for adoption. I understand that yes you'll be reminded of the rape, but even if you didn't get pregnant you can still be reminded of the rape.

[Marsh.]

"Ruining the mother's life" isn't a good enough excuse.

Sexual intercourse is primarily for reproducing. You take the risk of creating a baby every time you have sex.

If you can't handle the possible consequences of that act then you shouldn't be doing it.

[Redway]

Yes but it's not a life that the woman wanted to create, and what if the child searches for her in the future and she doesn't want to know the child? then don't forget if they are severely disabled aswell, it's cruel to watch them suffer I would imagine.

That's true but again any unwanted child can be put up for adoption or some other alternative (in the event of a severely disabled child). And, yeah, I understand the woman not wanting to see her child (depending on the woman) but the guilt of having the abortion could add to the pain. But again, feel free to disagree. :tongue:

[Ammi]

..why LOL..why so than anyone else...?

..it won't change the fact that she was raped..and there's the opportunity for someone else to love that child...

[Mystic Mock]

..could you not assume that anyone having an abortion other than for medical reasons, didn't want to create that life...?

Well if the woman was raped for example then no she didn't willingly want to create that life for the baby, plus the child would not get a nice environment anyway as everytime the Mother looks at the child it would bring back all the trauma of when she was raped, I honestly believe the option of abortion should be there for stuff like that and if the child is severely disabled.

[GypsyGoth]

Sexual intercourse is primarily for reproducing. You take the risk of creating a baby every time you have sex.


Who says?

I think sexual intercourse could be primarily for fun if you like.

[nicole_burks]

Oh, and for the thing on adoption, nothing irritates me more to see someone who had a disabled child and give them up for adoption.

If you can't take care of the child in the first place, you were probably unfit to be a mother all together. Shouldn't be taking in sexual practices in the first place.

[nicole_burks]

Who says?

I think sexual intercourse could be primarily for fun if you like.
Most of the time those are called sluts, Claudia.

[MTVN]

..but then who's to decide what would ruin a person's life..that's the problem...

I think the individual is the only one with the ability to really judge the impact it will have on their life, I'd also say it's their body and if they choose to abort the baby ut of it then that isn't something any court or government should have the right to prohibit

[Ammi]

Well if the woman was raped for example then no she didn't willingly want to create that life for the baby, plus the child would not get a nice environment anyway as everytime the Mother looks at the child it would bring back all the trauma of when she was raped, I honestly believe the option of abortion should be there for stuff like that and if the child is severely disabled.

..I understand that she may not want to keep the child Mock..but there are alternatives to aborting it...

[Mystic Mock]

..why LOL..why so than anyone else...?

..it won't change the fact that she was raped..and there's the opportunity for someone else to love that child...

Everyone's different but I definitely think that the woman shouldn't have to keep a child alive that she didn't want in the first place if she doesn't want to.

I also think MTVN has a point on one thing and that's if you make abortions illegal you will just get some people have abortions illegally and not properly monitored.

[Marsh.]

Who says?

I think sexual intercourse could be primarily for fun if you like.

Of course it's for fun if you like.

What I'm saying is, is that biologically it is there to create offspring. Therefore, whether you want a child or not you run the risk of making one every time you have sex. Therefore, you should be prepared for that outcome.

[Ammi]

I think the individual is the only one with the ability to really judge the impact it will have on their life

..exactly, I think you either agree with it or don't..there aren't any ifs or buts..other than medical ones...

[MTVN]

Most of the time those are called sluts, Claudia.

Sex for pleasure isn't being a slut though, it doesn't mean you're going around having sex with anything that moves

[Marsh.]

Most of the time those are called sluts, Claudia.

:laugh2:

[MTVN]

Of course it's for fun if you like.

What I'm saying is, is that biologically it is there to create offspring. Therefore, whether you want a child or not you run the risk of making one every time you have sex. Therefore, you should be prepared for that outcome.

Nobody should ever have sex unless they're prepared to have a child? That's pretty crazy

[Mystic Mock]

Most of the time those are called sluts, Claudia.

I think it's stupid for calling single people sluts though, the ones I class as sluts are people who have already got a partner but decide to sleep around the block 24/7.

[nicole_burks]

I think it's stupid for calling single people sluts though, the ones I class as sluts are people who have already got a partner but decide to sleep around the block 24/7.
So you're okay with people sleeping around with a different person every night?

okay..

[Munchkins]

Lowering the limit to such an extent, wouldn't give the mother the chance to fully decide on the decision, and would probably lead to more rushed, regretful abortions...
Agreed that fully illegalising it will revert back to the awful back street abortions..

[Ammi]

I think it's stupid for calling single people sluts though, the ones I class as sluts are people who have already got a partner but decide to sleep around the block 24/7.

..those are people who cheat on their partners and don't have much respect for themselves...slut is a very overused word...

[Marsh.]

Nobody should ever have sex unless they're prepared to have a child? That's pretty crazy

Not crazy at all.
Biologically, we have those organs to reproduce and keep our species going.
Therefore if you intend to use those organs, you should be mature enough to deal with the consequences.

[LemonJam]

Mother of lol some of these responses.

I'm pro-choice.

[Mystic Mock]

So you're okay with people sleeping around with a different person every night?

okay..

Well it's not hurting anyone so no it doesn't bother me.

[Marsh.]

Mother of lol some of these responses.

I'm pro-choice.

Can you not cope with someone having a different perspective/opinion?

[AnnieK]

Such an emotive subject. I personally could never have an abortion, regardless of circumstance BUT I do think that it is a completely personal decision.

Legal limits should be dropped dramatically, I actually do not know how anyone can abort a child at the upper limits now as the mother would have felt that child move by then..

I also can't imagine carrying a baby to term and then giving it up either.

What I can't believe is that you can have an abortion later than the already crazyily late 24 weeks for certain medical conditions which are not life threatening such as a cleft lip!!!

[LemonJam]

Can you not cope with someone having a different perspective/opinion?

I find the idea that people should only have sex for reproduction kind of funny, yes.

[Tom4784]

You can have your opinions, he is entitled to choose to laugh at them as is anyone.

[Marsh.]

I find the idea that people should only have sex for reproduction kind of funny, yes.

If that is in reference to one of my posts - that's not what I said.

[Redway]

I find the idea that people should only have sex for reproduction kind of funny, yes.

No one's saying that you should only have sex for reproduction but if you're going to have sex at all, be prepared to face the consequences. And if you can't then why have it at all? It's just piss poor thinking.

[the truth]

every abortion is a tragedy and is a dead baby. Thats just the truth of the matter. I voted for relative morality , give women as much option and info as possible, also allow the father to be a voice in the overall discussion. i would also reduce it from 24 weeks. a 24 week year old baby is pretty much a fully formed baby. whats the difference between killing it inside or outside the womb?

it needs to become less of a male v female issue. everything must be included in evaluating it. also I reject the suggestion its insulting to women to have more options available to them. I dont care a damn about offending women or anyone, we are talking life and death and ego must go out the window. obviously if the mothers health is at risk and abortion is the medical recommendation thats 100% fine. if shes raped and she wants an abortion, get it done as early as possible. but anything else I would fight to ensure the abortion clinic and all the medical staff take everyhting into account , including the fathers feelings about having his child being aborted, they should be offering all options to the mother, then within the limit she has the ultimate decision.

personally Id show the mother to be photos of aborted babies. she needs to be fully aware that a life is being taken

[Marsh.]

i would also reduce it from 24 weeks. a 24 week year old baby is pretty much a fully formed baby. whats the difference between killing it inside or outside the womb?

I agree. Especially because nowadays smaller and smaller, more premature babies can actually survive outside of the womb.

[LemonJam]

If that is in reference to one of my posts - that's not what I said.

No one's saying that you should only have sex for reproduction but if you're going to have sex at all, be prepared to face the consequences. And if you can't then why have it at all? It's just piss poor thinking.

erm okay, so if for example the condom splits and the woman becomes pregnant are you genuinely saying she just has to face the consequences?

[Redway]

erm okay, so if for example the condom splits and the woman becomes pregnant are you genuinely saying she just has to face the consequences?

Either way, condoms are not 100% effective so there's always a chance that pregnancy could be on the cards.

[the truth]

erm okay, so if for example the condom splits and the woman becomes pregnant are you genuinely saying she just has to face the consequences?

yes

but I wouldnt call a beautiful baby a consequence, would you?

This conversation was outlawed under labours politicallly correct radicalism. it must be discussed. also photos of terminated babies should be made public and shown to all mothers considering abortion

[Vicky.]

The huge majority of abortions are carried out before the 12 week mark. Only around 10% are done after 13 weeks. An abortion done after this time is more likely to be a case of the child having disabilities (which sometimes cannot be picked up on until your 20 week scan) or it turns out continuing with the pregnancy would cause health risks to the mother, or someone not finding out they were pregnant until very late. So to me, the argument on lowering the time limit...well its kinda self regulating anyway to begin with.

Most abortions (around 90%) are carried out before a pregnancy reaches 13 weeks, and virtually all abortions (around 98%) are performed before 20 weeks.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/When-should-it-be-done.aspx

It is quite upsetting though to think that a child born at 24 weeks has a ~40% chance of survival (with a lot of medical intervention..and would usually have severe disabilities as a result of such a premature birth though) whereas terminations can be carried out up until this time too.
I am pro-choice, however I detest those who have multiple abortions, as clearly they do not take it as seriously as it is. I also do not understand why people would continue to have abortions rather than use contraception in future...as abortions are extremely painful, both physically and mentally.

Edit. I also hold the (usually quite unpopular) opinion that a childs father should also have a say in things like this. At the moment it is only down to the woman. While it is her body and her health that would be affected by continuing with the pregnancy, I do not think it is right for the father to have no say at all in the life of his baby.

[Marsh.]

erm okay, so if for example the condom splits and the woman becomes pregnant are you genuinely saying she just has to face the consequences?

Yes. If you have sex you run the risk of making a baby. That's what sex is for. That's common sense.

Ross Gellar had the same problem. He didn't read the packet which told him condoms aren't 100% effective. :hugesmile:

[Ammi]

The huge majority of abortions are carried out before the 12 week mark. Only around 10% are done after 13 weeks. An abortion done after this time is more likely to be a case of the child having disabilities (which sometimes cannot be picked up on until your 20 week scan) or it turns out continuing with the pregnancy would cause health risks to the mother, or someone not finding out they were pregnant until very late. So to me, the argument on lowering the time limit...well its kinda self regulating anyway to begin with.


http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/When-should-it-be-done.aspx

It is quite upsetting though to think that a child born at 24 weeks has a ~40% chance of survival (with a lot of medical intervention..and would usually have severe disabilities as a result of such a premature birth though) whereas terminations can be carried out up until this time too.
I am pro-choice, however I detest those who have multiple abortions, as clearly they do not take it as seriously as it is. I also do not understand why people would continue to have abortions rather than use contraception in future...as abortions are extremely painful, both physically and mentally.

..I agree..

[Mystic Mock]

yes

but I wouldnt call a beautiful baby a consequence, would you?

This conversation was outlawed under labours politicallly correct radicalism. it must be discussed. also photos of terminated babies should be made public and shown to all mothers considering abortion

For me it would.:joker:

No I don't believe in abortion for no reason whatsoever and people that do that are a bit selfish imo.

[LemonJam]

Either way, condoms are not 100% effective so there's always a chance that pregnancy could be on the cards.

Yes. If you have sex you run the risk of making a baby. That's what sex is for. That's common sense.

Ross Gellar had the same problem. He didn't read the packet which told him condoms aren't 100% effective. :hugesmile:

Then with all due respect I just find that opinion kind of funny.


yes

but I wouldnt call a beautiful baby a consequence, would you?


well that wholly depends on the persons circumstances.

[Redway]

Then with all due respect I just find that opinion kind of funny.

Well, that's fine and you don't have to agree with anything that's been said on this thread...

[Marsh.]

Then with all due respect I just find that opinion kind of funny.

Would you like to elaborate? I can't see how it's funny?

We are essentially animals with reproductive organs intended to keep our species alive. It's a fact.

[Shaun]

Most of the time those are called sluts, Claudia.

by prudes with a wonderfully dull life, and too much time invested in others'.

[Tom4784]

by prudes with a wonderfully dull life, and too much time invested in others'.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9wc0bOIZ41qebpzp.gif

[LemonJam]

Would you like to elaborate? I can't see how it's funny?

We are essentially animals with reproductive organs intended to keep our species alive. It's a fact.

Do you not think of us as beyond animals though? I mean except for dolphins as far as I'm aware we're the only species that has sex for pleasure so why avoid it when we have the tools to prevent a consequence that one would not be ready for? I just couldn't imagine not having sex with someone out of fear of getting them pregnant.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be pre-cautious though, but I think depending on the circumstances (and not being a tit who gets abortions like their weekly scratchcard) people should be able to choose the path they wish to take and not have to 'bear the consequence' when it's their own bodies and lives and a potential future life in consideration.

[Marsh.]

Do you not think of us as beyond animals though? I mean except for dolphins as far as I'm aware we're the only species that has sex for pleasure so why avoid it when we have the tools to prevent a consequence that one would not be ready for? I just couldn't imagine not having sex with someone out of fear of getting them pregnant.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be pre-cautious though, but I think depending on the circumstances (and not being a tit who gets abortions like their weekly scratchcard) people should be able to choose the path they wish to take and not have to 'bear the consequence' when it's their own bodies and lives and a potential future life in consideration.

It's only society that added all the connotations to sex (making love, having fun etc).
Essentially, it is there for reproduction. If you do it, just be aware there is a chance a baby will come of it (just as sometimes there's a chance of contracting a disease).

Just like you may enjoy eating chocolate/junk food, you must therefore be prepared for the possible consequences of eating unhealthily.
IMO, it's all common sense and maturity.

I hope by "tools" you mean contraceptive methods? Yes, they are there but are not foolproof therefore you should still be aware of that risk. Which brings us back around to education. Especially when you hear people asking "Can you get pregnant up the bum?" "Can you get HIV from kissing?". It's all about being informed and knowing what you're getting into (literally).

If you are referring to abortion as a "tool to prevent consequences" then that is my main problem with abortion, that view is barbaric.

[Shaun]

I just... the whole issue frustrates me. Why do you care? It doesn't affect you. It makes me laugh whenever men try to act all moral about it. Grow a uterus, then see how you feel about a society telling you you must keep a baby after having sex.

I guess the whole personal connection makes me a bit hotheaded about the topic - my sister's had two pregnancy scares and I've discussed the possibility of abortion with her both times. Obviously I don't scream at her "ABORT! ABORT!" but I just remind her that she's not got a great career, she lives with her mother, she's only 19 and she has no life experience yet. It turned out in the end that both times she miscarried, but the idea of someone that young and that naive being a mother because some people would tell her she's got to live with her "mistakes" (I mean really, go throw a frisbee or something. Chill the **** out.) angers me.

and yes, marsh, your genitals are essentially there for reproduction. but then, your feet are essentially there for walking, and I see a hell of a lot of ballroom dancing on television and no one's complaining.

I agree with you though that sex education needs more time to develop in schools - it's still only really a recent phenomena, and there's still too much religion and abstinence taught with regard to it. It's no coincidence that the most open and blunt countries (Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Denmark) have the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy.

[Jack_]

So you're okay with people sleeping around with a different person every night?

okay..

Yes. And I am really sick to death of this attitude that condemns people for leading active, healthy and despite the popular belief, safe sex lives. So what if someone wants to have sex every night with different people? They like sex, what's the problem? So long as they're doing it safely and not hurting people's feelings along the way by cheating what exactly is so bad? Sex is the reason we're all on this bloody planet, it makes the world go round.

This 'omg if you enjoy sex or have sex too much you're such a slut' is damaging to society. The reason we have so many problems regarding sexual health and underage sex is because of this close-minded, pre-historic, reserved attitude towards it. We need to be open, frank and liberal about it. There is nothing wrong with promiscuous behaviour, so long as it is safe, legal and is not hurting anyone. Where's this unwritten rule of the world that a person is so abhorrent if they lead an active sex life? There isn't one, it's an on-going, damaging stereotype that is causing more problems, not solving them.

[Marsh.]

Grow a uterus

My, my, I am astounded by your very mature and concise argument.

In order to have an opinion or any knowledge on the matter I must have a uterus myself. Hmmm.... yeah.


and yes, marsh, your genitals are essentially there for reproduction. but then, your feet are essentially there for walking, and I see a hell of a lot of ballroom dancing on television and no one's complaining.

The fact you find that in the slightest but comparable tells me everything I need to know about how well you've thought that through. Since when did an appearance on Strictly Come Dancing lead to the very huge and life changing decision of bringing a human being into the world?

And you have some need to tell people to "chill out". We are all having a discussion, you are the one getting irate. Calm down and use your brain.

And if everyone took the stance of "It doesn't affect you therefore why do you care?" then the world would be in an even worse state than it already is. Not caring is what leads to problems.

[Mystic Mock]

Yes. And I am really sick to death of this attitude that condemns people for leading active, healthy and despite the popular belief, safe sex lives. So what if someone wants to have sex every night with different people? They like sex, what's the problem? So long as they're doing it safely and not hurting people's feelings along the way by cheating what exactly is so bad? Sex is the reason we're all on this bloody planet, it makes the world go round.

This 'omg if you enjoy sex or have sex too much you're such a slut' is damaging to society. The reason we have so many problems regarding sexual health and underage sex is because of this close-minded, pre-historic, reserved attitude towards it. We need to be open, frank and liberal about it. There is nothing wrong with promiscuous behaviour, so long as it is safe, legal and is not hurting anyone. Where's this unwritten rule of the world that a person is so abhorrent if they lead an active sex life? There isn't one, it's an on-going, damaging stereotype that is causing more problems, not solving them.

You've said everything that I would have said Jack, a very good post.

[LemonJam]

It's only society that added all the connotations to sex (making love, having fun etc).
Essentially, it is there for reproduction. If you do it, just be aware there is a chance a baby will come of it (just as sometimes there's a chance of contracting a disease).

True, but the thought that if something unplanned happens that they have to just deal with it is pretty damn harsh to me. I mean... I just can't comprehend the thought that fear should overcome an experience is joyful and healthy.

Just like you may enjoy eating chocolate/junk food, you must therefore be prepared for the possible consequences of eating unhealthily.
IMO, it's all common sense and maturity.

Yeah but there's a difference in gaining weight and having a baby :P

I hope by "tools" you mean contraceptive methods? Yes, they are there but are not foolproof therefore you should still be aware of that risk. Which brings us back around to education. Especially when you hear people asking "Can you get pregnant up the bum?" "Can you get HIV from kissing?". It's all about being informed and knowing what you're getting into (literally).

No I mean a clothes hanger. :pipe: No but srsly in general people know how to approach sex in a safe manner. I don't know what it's like in the UK but the sex education programmes here were fairly regular and informative. Even those with... erm... less common sense know how to approach sex in a safe manner.

If you are referring to abortion as a "tool to prevent consequences" then that is my main problem with abortion, that view is barbaric.

I suck with words, but I can't really think of a nice way of putting it, probably because there isn't. I don't believe that in the case of something unplanned they should have somebody tell them "Nope, you're having the baby." In my eyes, I find the idea of that more barbaric.

[Marsh.]

True, but the thought that if something unplanned happens that they have to just deal with it is pretty damn harsh to me. I mean... I just can't comprehend the thought that fear should overcome an experience is joyful and healthy.

But it's your own choice to partake in sex. If you don't want a child then either don't have sex or use protection (especially multiple methods at once which can be very reliable). May sound harsh but it's true.

People need to take responsibility for what they do instead of being mollycoddled.

Yeah but there's a difference in gaining weight and having a baby :P

Of course there is. But it has the same principle.
Dealing with the effects of what you yourself are doing with your body.
Don't complain about being fat if you're gonna keep eating, that kind of thing.

No I mean a clothes hanger. :pipe:

:hugesmile: What I meant was, I hope you're not grouping abortion and contraception into the same bracket.

No but srsly in general people know how to approach sex in a safe manner. I don't know what it's like in the UK but the sex education programmes here were fairly regular and informative. Even those with... erm... less common sense know how to approach sex in a safe manner.

Exactly. So if they're fully informed and aware of said risks then they should be fully prepared. If they don't want to keep the child or raise it then they can use the adoption system.

I suck with words, but I can't really think of a nice way of putting it, probably because there isn't. I don't believe that in the case of something unplanned they should have somebody tell them "Nope, you're having the baby." In my eyes, I find the idea of that more barbaric.

I don't see why. Like I said, if they don't want a child or can't cope with one then there are adoption services. Killing an unborn child is barbaric.

Of course if someone is pregnant and it will seriously effect them in that their life would be put in danger then that is a necessary reason IMO.

[LemonJam]

But it's your own choice to partake in sex. If you don't want a child then either don't have sex or use protection (especially multiple methods at once which can be very reliable). May sound harsh but it's true.

People need to take responsibility for what they do instead of being mollycoddled.

Use protection, of course, avoiding sex... well you know my thoughts on that already but I doubt I'm gonna change your mind. :p Dunno what else to say without repeating myself.


I don't see why. Like I said, if they don't want a child or can't cope with one then there are adoption services. Killing an unborn child is barbaric.


That then just depends on where you believe life really begins, whether it begins at conception or later, and I think that decision should be up to the person bearing the child.

[Marsh.]

Yes, we've reach an impasse.

Nice discussing with you anyway. :hugesmile:

[Suze]

I always think it's wrong. But there are certain drastic situations where I think it's an understandable decision to make.
People who use it as a contraceptive method make me sick.

But whichever way, the limit needs to be dropped.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. I understand drastic cases (such as rape) but I don't think there's one single baby who couldn't be put up for adoption if the mother didn't want it. There are plenty of people out there dying for a child and if the mother doesn't want it there are always possible alternatives.

I agree with you Redway, but I also don't think enough is done to help those going through the decision of whether to abort or not, as some have been known to regret the choice of abortion, understandable as they would have likely been under stress at the time and not always thinking straight. At least if they decide to have the child adopted, they know they have given it the chance of life.

[Niall]

I'm pro-choice. It's a women's perogative over what she wants to do with her body so to my mind it's a moral thing.

[Marsh.]

I'm pro-choice. It's a women's perogative over what she wants to do with her body so to my mind it's a moral thing.

But it's not just about her body, it's about another body she has created with somebody else. Why should they not have a say or be part of the discussion?

[Niall]

But it's not just about her body, it's about another body she has created with somebody else. Why should they not have a say or be part of the discussion?

Because that person isn't going to be carrying, and providing sustenance, and ultimately going through a ****load of pain for that child? :shrug:

I get what you're saying, but it's a flimsy argument imo. The other person isn't going to have to go through everything the mother will do for 9 months. They'll just sit around in that time waiting for the baby to be born.

[the truth]

I just... the whole issue frustrates me. Why do you care? It doesn't affect you. It makes me laugh whenever men try to act all moral about it. Grow a uterus, then see how you feel about a society telling you you must keep a baby after having sex.

I guess the whole personal connection makes me a bit hotheaded about the topic - my sister's had two pregnancy scares and I've discussed the possibility of abortion with her both times. Obviously I don't scream at her "ABORT! ABORT!" but I just remind her that she's not got a great career, she lives with her mother, she's only 19 and she has no life experience yet. It turned out in the end that both times she miscarried, but the idea of someone that young and that naive being a mother because some people would tell her she's got to live with her "mistakes" (I mean really, go throw a frisbee or something. Chill the **** out.) angers me.

and yes, marsh, your genitals are essentially there for reproduction. but then, your feet are essentially there for walking, and I see a hell of a lot of ballroom dancing on television and no one's complaining.

I agree with you though that sex education needs more time to develop in schools - it's still only really a recent phenomena, and there's still too much religion and abstinence taught with regard to it. It's no coincidence that the most open and blunt countries (Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Denmark) have the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy.

If it comes down to a choice between angering you or killing a baby, then your anger is irrelevant. also why are you allowed an opinion on the topic and Im not? Men have every right to an opinion, especially the fathers of the child about to be murdered.

[the truth]

Because that person isn't going to be carrying, and providing sustenance, and ultimately going through a ****load of pain for that child? :shrug:

I get what you're saying, but it's a flimsy argument imo. The other person isn't going to have to go through everything the mother will do for 9 months. They'll just sit around in that time waiting for the baby to be born.
everyone agrees if its a complex pregnancy then of course the womens health is 100% main priority. but now its become too black and white, the moral question is removed, the result is 191,000 abortions and in many cases women and men regretting this forever

what were really arguing over is 1) the lateness of some abortions,2)also the encouragement thats been in force for aborting babies, resulting in 191000 babies killed each year. 3)the lack of information and options being made available to these pregnant women and the fathers and extended families. Its become a political issue when it really should be a medical and moral one.

[Marsh.]

Because that person isn't going to be carrying, and providing sustenance, and ultimately going through a ****load of pain for that child? :shrug:

I get what you're saying, but it's a flimsy argument imo. The other person isn't going to have to go through everything the mother will do for 9 months. They'll just sit around in that time waiting for the baby to be born.

If the baby will cause medical/health complications for the mother then you're right.

But I don't think it's a flimsy argument at all. Regardless of the 9 months carrying, the baby is as much the father's as it is the mother's. It disgusts me that their feelings on the matter are ignored.

They just sit around waiting for the baby to be born? How ridiculous.
They don't have the chance to have their own baby inside them so they can't have a say in someone killing their own? Disgusting.

[the truth]

If the baby will cause medical/health complications for the mother then you're right.

But I don't think it's a flimsy argument at all. Regardless of the 9 months carrying, the baby is as much the father's as it is the mother's. It disgusts me that their feelings on the matter are ignored.

They just sit around waiting for the baby to be born? How ridiculous.
They don't have the chance to have their own baby inside them so they can't have a say in someone killing their own? Disgusting.

100% agree, the unborn childs feelings are ignored and the fathers isnt even allowed to have an opinion in the killing of his own child? this situation is insane. a better far more intelligent, far deeper, far more caring compassionate balance must be found....the current mindless mass murder is driven by the ...Im a woman ill have as much sex as i like and kill as many babies in my womb as i like, maybe ill kill them with drugs, or booze, or abortions or maybe ill just do it as revenge? a balance should be found , this whole nightmare issue must be better regulated and families must be allowed far greater attention, options and information. ofcourse education must also improve. but it never does.

[GypsyGoth]

Im a woman ill have as much sex as i like and kill as many babies in my womb as i like, maybe ill kill them with drugs, or booze, or abortions or maybe ill just do it as revenge?

It's as good a hobby as any other.

[Ninastar]

It's as good a hobby as any other.

lmfao

[Marsh.]

It's as good a hobby as any other.

I knew it. Hussy.

[the truth]

lmfao

191000 abortions is funny ? sick:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::non o:

[Kizzy]

I know we all have differing opinions, but one thing is certain...
There are no easy options and no right or wrong answers.
The topic has so many, moral, social and ethical connotations that it makes it impossible reach a tangible conclusion.

[Jake.]

Is sexism to that degree even allowed on here? You clearly have a problem against women

[Mystic Mock]

191000 abortions is funny ? sick:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::non o:

They are mocking you The Truth, what are you gonna do about it?:hugesmile:

Just joking btw don't start anything.

[Mystic Mock]

Is sexism to that degree even allowed on here? You clearly have a problem against women

Clearly it is.

[Marsh.]

Who's being sexist?

[Jake.]

The truth as always, he has this strange thing against women and its always confused me, it might not be full in your face but its not the first time hes gone on about women in that way

[Mystic Mock]

Who's being sexist?

The Truth.

[Marsh.]

Well, I wouldn't question what is or isn't allowed on here. Hypocrisy rules.

[the truth]

The truth as always, he has this strange thing against women and its always confused me, it might not be full in your face but its not the first time hes gone on about women in that way

over half the murdered babies are female, im fighting for them. youre the sexist:nono:

[Lee.]

Anyone who has carried a baby knows how early on in the pregnancy you feel those first little fluttery feelings of life and how strong their heartbeat sounds at the 12 week scan... even a 12 week foetus has a brain, a beating heart, limbs, facial features etc; how anyone can decide to cut that little life short, (regardless of circumstances) is actually beyond me. :sad:

[Suze]

Anyone who has carried a baby knows how early on in the pregnancy you feel those fiesta little fluttery feelings of life and how strong their heartbeat sounds at the 12 week scan... even a 12 week foetus has a brain, a beating heart, limbs, facial features etc; how anyone can decide to cut that little life short, (regardless of circumstances) is actually beyond me. :sad:

I could never do it no matter what, as it would play on me that I had taken a little life created through aborthion and feel I have no right to. That is just my opinion on abortion though, and no two people are the same and so we all make our own choices through life, whether seen as wrong or right and we then have to live with those choices. I just know that I am pretty much anti abortion, when there are especially so many couples wanting to adopt babies to bring up as their own in a hopefully loving enviroment. Even though giving up a baby for adoption could be heartbreaking, at least the baby would be given a gift of life, once aborted, that decision can never be changed. I also think a dad even if they don't have to carry the babies, not their fault after all, should have a say, many dads lose out on getting custody or part custody of their children through seperation or divorce as it is.

[Niamh.]

It's interesting you say that Lee, I noticed of the people who voted Right-Pro Choice none of them are parents (I don't think anyway!) *Don't bite my head off btw, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion on it if you're not a parent* I just think it's an interesting observation

[MTVN]

But we do have the only currently pregnant TiBB member so we win

[Marc]

Pregnancy with the wrong two people should be rectified, within the time period that is seen to be acceptable.

Don't want a child being born to two people who don't want it, or to be grown within a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant.

[Niamh.]

her vote said one thing but her post said another Matthew............I blame the hormones :pipe:

[Marc]

But I guess, not ever having had a child my opinion isn't very valid.

[Vicky.]

:laugh:

[Kizzy]

It's interesting you say that Lee, I noticed of the people who voted Right-Pro Choice none of them are parents (I don't think anyway!) *Don't bite my head off btw, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion on it if you're not a parent* I just think it's an interesting observation

I am pro choice niamh.
That said I support a 20wk limit.

[Niamh.]

I am pro choice niamh.
That said I support a 20wk limit.

I did say those who voted "Right-Pro choice" and you didn't actually vote for that

[Lee.]

It's interesting you say that Lee, I noticed of the people who voted Right-Pro Choice none of them are parents (I don't think anyway!) *Don't bite my head off btw, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion on it if you're not a parent* I just think it's an interesting observation
Yeah it is actually... I think actually going through pregnancy and childbirth can change your mind about these sort of subjects.


I remember turning up at the hospital for an appointment when I was pregnant with child1.. I dint really know why I was there and they explained it was for blood tests to see if there was any chance she could be Downs or Spina Bifida... you then had to wait for aged for the test results, THEN actually get the baby tested. I told them it just sounded like a big worry test .. they asked me if I would terminate if my baby was Downs Syndrome and I was just horrified.. I'd felt her move, heard her heartbeat and already felt super protective of her. I told them absolutely no way! And they just sent me home without having the tests done. I just can't imagine allowing somebody to remove my living baby from my body and killing it. The thought of it shocks me tbh.

[Ammi]

..I'm coming around to the opinion that I'm pro-choice..I don't agree with the 20wk time period, but I do think that it isn't for anyone else to say what the right or wrong circumstances to have a child is for others...I do, however agree with Vicky, that 'multiple' abortions shouldn't be allowed...if you've gone through an abortion before then a second or third time is inexcusable.....

..I am a mother and I would never have aborted any of my pregnancies but it's not for me to say that my views should apply to others....

[Niamh.]

I understand that Ammi, I'm probably leaning to that view too. I personally think abortion is wrong but I'm not vain enough to think that I'm 100% right on that. All I know for sure is that it would be wrong for me

[AnnieK]

Yeah it is actually... I think actually going through pregnancy and childbirth can change your mind about these sort of subjects.


I remember turning up at the hospital for an appointment when I was pregnant with child1.. I dint really know why I was there and they explained it was for blood tests to see if there was any chance she could be Downs or Spina Bifida... you then had to wait for aged for the test results, THEN actually get the baby tested. I told them it just sounded like a big worry test .. they asked me if I would terminate if my baby was Downs Syndrome and I was just horrified.. I'd felt her move, heard her heartbeat and already felt super protective of her. I told them absolutely no way! And they just sent me home without having the tests done. I just can't imagine allowing somebody to remove my living baby from my body and killing it. The thought of it shocks me tbh.

I agree with you 100% Lee, I think sometimes there are too many tests. A friend of mine went for her 20 week scan but there had been a delay and she was 23 weeks gone when she had the scan. She was then told that there were potential problems with the babies heart, brain and kidneys but they would not know until the baby was born what the extent was and she should go home and make a decision overnight regarding termination as she was close to the legal limit. Thankfully she decided to continue with the pregnancy and spent the rest of the time agonising over her decision - not for herself but for any potential suffering for the baby.

Lucikily the baby was born with some kidney problems but they have been treated now....she is now wracked with guilt for the hours she spent considering a termination...

[Ammi]

I understand that Ammi, I'm probably leaning to that view too. I personally think abortion is wrong but I'm not vain enough to think that I'm 100% right on that. All I know for sure is that it would be wrong for me

..yeah, definately for me too..I think even in the case of rape, if I thought I may never be able to love the child, I would rather it had the opportunity to be loved by someone else than abort it....

[Niamh.]

..yeah, definately for me too..I think even in the case of rape, if I thought I may never be able to love the child, I would rather it had the opportunity to be loved by someone else than abort it....

Yeah obviously and thankfully I've never been in that situation so I can only guess on how I'd feel but I still don't think I'd have an abortion even in that case

[Lee.]

..I'm coming around to the opinion that I'm pro-choice..I don't agree with the 20wk time period, but I do think that it isn't for anyone else to say what the right or wrong circumstances to have a child is for others...I do, however agree with Vicky, that 'multiple' abortions shouldn't be allowed...if you've gone through an abortion before then a second or third time is inexcusable.....

..I am a mother and I would never have aborted any of my pregnancies but it's not for me to say that my views should apply to others....
Is it not 24 weeks?

I think this needs to be reduced drastically! My friend had her baby at 26 weeks and she survived. I think 8-12 weeks us the latest it should be

[Lee.]

I agree with you 100% Lee, I think sometimes there are too many tests. A friend of mine went for her 20 week scan but there had been a delay and she was 23 weeks gone when she had the scan. She was then told that there were potential problems with the babies heart, brain and kidneys but they would not know until the baby was born what the extent was and she should go home and make a decision overnight regarding termination as she was close to the legal limit. Thankfully she decided to continue with the pregnancy and spent the rest of the time agonising over her decision - not for herself but for any potential suffering for the baby.

Lucikily the baby was born with some kidney problems but they have been treated now....she is now wracked with guilt for the hours she spent considering a termination...

God, it must be awful to hear news like that! I'm glad the baby is fine now :)

[Vicky.]

Is it not 24 weeks?

I think this needs to be reduced drastically! My friend had her baby at 26 weeks and she survived. I think 8-12 weeks us the latest it should be
The problem with this is the tests you mentioned above. The original downs/spina bifada tests are done between 10-14 weeks. They cant be done earlier than that, nothing would show up. If you are considered 'high risk' (under 1/100 chance I *think*) you are offered more tests..this is after waiting a week/fortnight for the results of the first one (so you could be16 weeks gone by the time you got the results). No idea how long the other tests take as I had a 1/70,000 chance so they didnt even discuss that with me.

90% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester anyway, I would imagine this is most of those who are doing it for anything other than medical reasons (excluding those who do not realise until late on that they are pregnant). Reducing the limit to 12 weeks would only force people to carry on with pregnancies where there are 'problems' (I say problems like that as not everyone would see having a severely disabled child as a 'problem', but some would)


I guess it could be a 8/12 week limit unless there is a valid medical reason (not including cleft lip etc that are classed as reasons to get late abortions now :rolleyes: ) but this still has the problem of those who dont even realise they are pregnant until they are quite late on :/

[the truth]

Pregnancy with the wrong two people should be rectified, within the time period that is seen to be acceptable.

Don't want a child being born to two people who don't want it, or to be grown within a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant.

what the heck are you talking about?

if 2 people are currently arguing, the baby must be killed off?
if a woman is pregnant but feels like she doesnt want to be, the baby must be killed off?

I am undertsanding you right?

[the truth]

The problem with this is the tests you mentioned above. The original downs/spina bifada tests are done between 10-14 weeks. They cant be done earlier than that, nothing would show up. If you are considered 'high risk' (under 1/100 chance I *think*) you are offered more tests..this is after waiting a week/fortnight for the results of the first one (so you could be16 weeks gone by the time you got the results). No idea how long the other tests take as I had a 1/70,000 chance so they didnt even discuss that with me.

90% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester anyway, I would imagine this is most of those who are doing it for anything other than medical reasons (excluding those who do not realise until late on that they are pregnant). Reducing the limit to 12 weeks would only force people to carry on with pregnancies where there are 'problems' (I say problems like that as not everyone would see having a severely disabled child as a 'problem', but some would)

yes but even those 90% are murdered babies

[Niamh.]

The problem with this is the tests you mentioned above. The original downs/spina bifada tests are done between 10-14 weeks. They cant be done earlier than that, nothing would show up. If you are considered 'high risk' (under 1/100 chance I *think*) you are offered more tests..this is after waiting a week/fortnight for the results of the first one (so you could be16 weeks gone by the time you got the results). No idea how long the other tests take as I had a 1/70,000 chance so they didnt even discuss that with me.

90% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester anyway, I would imagine this is most of those who are doing it for anything other than medical reasons (excluding those who do not realise until late on that they are pregnant). Reducing the limit to 12 weeks would only force people to carry on with pregnancies where there are 'problems' (I say problems like that as not everyone would see having a severely disabled child as a 'problem', but some would)


I guess it could be a 8/12 week limit unless there is a valid medical reason (not including cleft lip etc that are classed as reasons to get late abortions now :rolleyes: ) but this still has the problem of those who dont even realise they are pregnant until they are quite late on :/

That's actually a disgrace.

[Vicky.]

yes but even those 90% are murdered babies

And? Lowering the limit would not stop those 90% of 'babies being 'murdered'

[Vicky.]

That's actually a disgrace.

Yes I know. Couldnt believe it when I found out that myself.

[Ammi]

Is it not 24 weeks?

I think this needs to be reduced drastically! My friend had her baby at 26 weeks and she survived. I think 8-12 weeks us the latest it should be

..yeah, for some reason I thought it was 12 weeks, I agree that the term when it is allowed is barbaric...

[Niamh.]

Yes I know. Couldnt believe it when I found out that myself.

You'd have to wonder what kind of parents those people are, they want a baby but not if they have a cleft lip .......

[Ammi]

The problem with this is the tests you mentioned above. The original downs/spina bifada tests are done between 10-14 weeks. They cant be done earlier than that, nothing would show up. If you are considered 'high risk' (under 1/100 chance I *think*) you are offered more tests..this is after waiting a week/fortnight for the results of the first one (so you could be16 weeks gone by the time you got the results). No idea how long the other tests take as I had a 1/70,000 chance so they didnt even discuss that with me.

90% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester anyway, I would imagine this is most of those who are doing it for anything other than medical reasons (excluding those who do not realise until late on that they are pregnant). Reducing the limit to 12 weeks would only force people to carry on with pregnancies where there are 'problems' (I say problems like that as not everyone would see having a severely disabled child as a 'problem', but some would)


I guess it could be a 8/12 week limit unless there is a valid medical reason (not including cleft lip etc that are classed as reasons to get late abortions now :rolleyes: ) but this still has the problem of those who dont even realise they are pregnant until they are quite late on :/


..so is it the same term for 'selected' abortions Vicky...?

[Ammi]

You'd have to wonder what kind of parents those people are, they want a baby but not if they have a cleft lip .......

..that's basically like the Chinese guy who sued his wife because his daughter wasn't pretty enough...

[Vicky.]

..so is it the same term for 'selected' abortions Vicky...?

Selected abortions?

[Niamh.]

..that's basically like the Chinese guy who sued his wife because his daughter wasn't pretty enough...

Yeah, it is actually

[the truth]

And? Lowering the limit would not stop those 90% of 'babies being 'murdered'

yes lowering the limit greatly and placing far tighter stricter regulations and procedures at all abortion clinics, makingit law that mothers and fathers are consulted and that all their alternatives must be given to them by law. this flippant, do you want to kill it because it may have a minor or major disability, is disgusting, its murder imho and it must be seriously tightened up to put it mildly. 191000 abortions a year , is 191000 human lives who may have lived for the next 50 to 100 years, who knows what these people could have achieved? Over 2 decades, the numbers killed would be reaching holocaust proportions. It must be addressed andit must stop being a petty male v female issue hijacked by the radical elements of the far right nutters and the far left feminazis....the middle ground moderates must find compromises and take back control of abortion, as well as all other major issues.

[Ammi]

Selected abortions?

..if you didn't have to wait for tests, but chose to have an abortion because of your personal circumstances...is it still 24 weeks..?

[the truth]

incidentally do men ever ask their wives or lovers for abortions? thats another example where an abortion could come about as a fickle life choice. i.e. he may want to keep the affair quiet or he may not want the hassle and finance of bringing up a child. again its not male v female issue, it throws up loads of different scenarios, each ending with a baby effectively murdered.

[AnnieK]

yes lowering the limit greatly and placing far tighter stricter regulations and procedures at all abortion clinics, makingit law that mothers and fathers are consulted and that all their alternatives must be given to them by law. this flippant, do you want to kill it because it may have a minor or major disability, is disgusting, its murder imho and it must be seriously tightened up to put it mildly. 191000 abortions a year , is 191000 human lives who may have lived for the next 50 to 100 years, who knows what these people could have achieved? Over 2 decades, the numbers killed would be reaching holocaust proportions. It must be addressed andit must stop being a petty male v female issue hijacked by the radical elements of the far right nutters and the far left feminazis....the middle ground moderates must find compromises and take back control of abortion, as well as all other major issues.

I absolutely agree that Fathers have a right to be heard too but you would not be able to make it law that Father's are consulted too - what if the pregnancy was the result of a one night stand and the woman has not seen the guy again and therefore cannot contact him? It raises another morality issue on casual sex but surely these women should not be treated differently than a woman who can name the father?

[Vicky.]

..if you didn't have to wait for tests, but chose to have an abortion because of your personal circumstances...is it still 24 weeks..?

Ah right I get you. Yeah I think the 24 week limit is for any reason. Though its not always as easy to get an abortion as people think (quite how some people manage to get multiple ones I dont know). Its not quite just going to the docs and saying you want one. You need 2 docs to agree with you that it is the right thing for you and the fetus. You are also 'supposed' to get proper counselling beforehand to make sure you arent doing it for the wrong reasons, or arent going to regret it immediately, though I know this doesnt always happen.

Not many abortions are carried out after 13 weeks though anyway. As I said earlier, it seems quite self regulating. Possibly because its a much different method getting a later abortion than an early one.

[Marcus.]

i live in an very religions house so my house says no

[Jamie585]

100 % depends on the circumstances, If someone wants an abortion just because they don't want a baby, they shouldn't be allowed, It's their own fault, But if there was a reason behind it, like too young, Or could effect the health of you or the baby, then I guess Abortion Is a good choice for them.

[Niamh.]

incidentally do men ever ask their wives or lovers for abortions? thats another example where an abortion could come about as a fickle life choice. i.e. he may want to keep the affair quiet or he may not want the hassle and finance of bringing up a child. again its not male v female issue, it throws up loads of different scenarios, each ending with a baby effectively murdered.

I believe there are quite a few cases where men have asked a woman to have an abortion, if they're not in a relationship for example and don't want to pay for that child

[Ammi]

The problem with this is the tests you mentioned above. The original downs/spina bifada tests are done between 10-14 weeks. They cant be done earlier than that, nothing would show up. If you are considered 'high risk' (under 1/100 chance I *think*) you are offered more tests..this is after waiting a week/fortnight for the results of the first one (so you could be16 weeks gone by the time you got the results). No idea how long the other tests take as I had a 1/70,000 chance so they didnt even discuss that with me.

90% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester anyway, I would imagine this is most of those who are doing it for anything other than medical reasons (excluding those who do not realise until late on that they are pregnant). Reducing the limit to 12 weeks would only force people to carry on with pregnancies where there are 'problems' (I say problems like that as not everyone would see having a severely disabled child as a 'problem', but some would)


I guess it could be a 8/12 week limit unless there is a valid medical reason (not including cleft lip etc that are classed as reasons to get late abortions now :rolleyes: ) but this still has the problem of those who dont even realise they are pregnant until they are quite late on :/

..that's interesting, I can understand that people may have there own reasons for not wishing the pregnancy to go ahead and those reasons are for nobody else to judge but I guess, I don't understand how they couldn't know this from an earlier stage in the pregnancy..but I suppose circumstances could change during the course of ther pregnancy as well....it's good that they have all of the emotional counselling too...I would have thought that their body and emotions almost go into shock when they're suddenly not pregnant...I don't know if it's different with a miscarriage because the body has rejected the pregnancy or the baby hasn't survived....it's important that they feel certain they're making the right choice for them...

[Niamh.]

Ah right I get you. Yeah I think the 24 week limit is for any reason. Though its not always as easy to get an abortion as people think (quite how some people manage to get multiple ones I dont know). Its not quite just going to the docs and saying you want one. You need 2 docs to agree with you that it is the right thing for you and the fetus. You are also 'supposed' to get proper counselling beforehand to make sure you arent doing it for the wrong reasons, or arent going to regret it immediately, though I know this doesnt always happen.

Not many abortions are carried out after 13 weeks though anyway. As I said earlier, it seems quite self regulating. Possibly because its a much different method getting a later abortion than an early one.

Abortion is still illegal here. What I was surprised and quite horrified to hear though was that hospitals will do abortions if the mothers life is at risk but not if the baby is suffering from a disease that means they'll die a couple of hours after they're born, the woman has to go to England for a termination or else see it through, have the baby and wait till it dies itself.

[Vicky.]

..that's interesting, I can understand that people may have there own reasons for not wishing the pregnancy to go ahead and those reasons are for nobody else to judge but I guess, I don't understand how they couldn't know this from an earlier stage in the pregnancy..but I suppose circumstances could change during the course of ther pregnancy as well....it's good that they have all of the emotional counselling too...I would have thought that their body and emotions almost go into shock when they're suddenly not pregnant...I don't know if it's different with a miscarriage because the body has rejected the pregnancy or the baby hasn't survived....it's important that they feel certain they're making the right choice for them...

An early abortion (before 13 weeks) is pretty much exactly the same as a miscarriage. You take pills and it kind of induces a miscarriage. Late on I believe it requires an operation of some kind, so yeah I would think your body probably would go into shock or something.

I seriously doubt there are many people who just chose to have an abortion after 13 weeks because they decide they dont want/cant support/etc a baby...its something you would know immediately really. I think its likely that most done after this point are for medical reasons or because the woman didnt even know she was pregnant until late on. I know of some people who didnt even know they were pregnant until they were 6month+ gone :o

[Niamh.]

..that's interesting, I can understand that people may have there own reasons for not wishing the pregnancy to go ahead and those reasons are for nobody else to judge but I guess, I don't understand how they couldn't know this from an earlier stage in the pregnancy..but I suppose circumstances could change during the course of ther pregnancy as well....it's good that they have all of the emotional counselling too...I would have thought that their body and emotions almost go into shock when they're suddenly not pregnant...I don't know if it's different with a miscarriage because the body has rejected the pregnancy or the baby hasn't survived....it's important that they feel certain they're making the right choice for them...

I was 17 weeks pregnant with my son before I found out I was pregnant :shocked:

[Vicky.]

Abortion is still illegal here. What I was surprised and quite horrified to hear though was that hospitals will do abortions if the mothers life is at risk but not if the baby is suffering from a disease that means they'll die a couple of hours after they're born, the woman has to go to England for a termination or else see it through, have the baby and wait till it dies itself.

Thats really awful :/

[Ammi]

Abortion is still illegal here. What I was surprised and quite horrified to hear though was that hospitals will do abortions if the mothers life is at risk but not if the baby is suffering from a disease that means they'll die a couple of hours after they're born, the woman has to go to England for a termination or else see it through, have the baby and wait till it dies itself.

..yeah, I remember watching a documentary years ago about some Irish girls who came over to the UK to abort their pregnancies...their stories and circumstances were quite sad and tragic and to me they seemed to have very good reasons for their decisions, which weren't taken lightly, but they were treated like outcasts....

[Niamh.]

..yeah, I remember watching a documentary years ago about some Irish girls who came over to the UK to abort their pregnancies...their stories and circumstances were quite sad and tragic and to me they seemed to have very good reasons for their decisions, which weren't taken lightly, but they were treated like outcasts....

I suppose the only consolation with it is that a person would really have to think it through and take it seriously to get an abortion if you live here because you have to go to such lengths to get one.

[Ammi]

An early abortion (before 13 weeks) is pretty much exactly the same as a miscarriage. You take pills and it kind of induces a miscarriage. Late on I believe it requires an operation of some kind, so yeah I would think your body probably would go into shock or something.

I seriously doubt there are many people who just chose to have an abortion after 13 weeks because they decide they dont want/cant support/etc a baby...its something you would know immediately really. I think its likely that most done after this point are for medical reasons or because the woman didnt even know she was pregnant until late on. I know of some people who didnt even know they were pregnant until they were 6month+ gone :o

I was 17 weeks pregnant with my son before I found out I was pregnant :shocked:


...I suppose that just proves the point that it isn't up to us to judge these things...circumstances may mean a woman seeks a later abortion...

[Niamh.]

...I suppose that just proves the point that it isn't up to us to judge these things...circumstances may mean a woman seeks a later abortion...

Well yes and I'd imagine these cases are quite rare

[Ammi]

I suppose the only consolation with it is that a person would really have to think it through and take it seriously to get an abortion if you live here because you have to go to such lengths to get one.

..yeah, there is that to it..I would have liked the documentary to show how their community reacted to them, having gone through with it though...it ended with them travelling to the UK to have the abortions...I don't think it even said at the end whether they actually did have them...they may have changed their minds once they arrived here...

[the truth]

Abortion is still illegal here. What I was surprised and quite horrified to hear though was that hospitals will do abortions if the mothers life is at risk but not if the baby is suffering from a disease that means they'll die a couple of hours after they're born, the woman has to go to England for a termination or else see it through, have the baby and wait till it dies itself.

eh? how does one know for certain if a baby with a disease will survive? why are you horrified if the hospital gives the child at least a chance to live?

[the truth]

Thats really awful :/

whats the most awful? killing a baby in the bomb because he may be sick or letting him live and giving him/her a fighting chance to survive?

[the truth]

Well yes and I'd imagine these cases are quite rare

1 murdered formed child is one too many

[AnnieK]

eh? how does one know for certain if a baby with a disease will survive? why are you horrified if the hospital gives the child at least a chance to live?

I think niamhs point is that It's horrifying because it's double standards. If your argument is how do you know that the baby will not survive then the flip side is why allow a woman whose life is at risk to have a termination...how do you know the woman will not survive if the pregnancy progresses????

[Niamh.]

eh? how does one know for certain if a baby with a disease will survive? why are you horrified if the hospital gives the child at least a chance to live?

It's a certain condition that Doctors can test for, I can't remember the term for it but there were many cases of it in Ireland. I'll try to find out the name and back to you. And btw it's not the hospitals choice, they would have done it but legally they're not allowed to as abortion is illegal here unless the mothers life is at risk

[the truth]

I think niamhs point is that It's horrifying because it's double standards. If your argument is how do you know that the baby will not survive then the flip side is why allow a woman whose life is at risk to have a termination...how do you know the woman will not survive if the pregnancy progresses????

Youre making absolutely no sense whatsoever now. The woman gets everything tested, blood, heart, chest, temperature, they can know almost for certain the risk involved in continuing with the pregnancy. if theres a risk of serious harm, they let her know , she decides whether to terminate to save herself. Thats of course 100% fine. But terminating a babies life simply by the chance he may be born sick and may not survive is plain wrong. at that stage if theres no risk tothe motherwhy not have the baby and give the baby a fighting chance? whats wrong with that?

[the truth]

It's a certain condition that Doctors can test for, I can't remember the term for it but there were many cases of it in Ireland. I'll try to find out the name and back to you. And btw it's not the hospitals choice, they would have done it but legally they're not allowed to as abortion is illegal here unless the mothers life is at risk

well I thin there is a lot to be said in favourof the irish system. to kill a baby at late stage in pregnancy because theres a chance he/she wont survive is murder

[the truth]

It's a certain condition that Doctors can test for, I can't remember the term for it but there were many cases of it in Ireland. I'll try to find out the name and back to you. And btw it's not the hospitals choice, they would have done it but legally they're not allowed to as abortion is illegal here unless the mothers life is at risk

well I thin there is a lot to be said in favourof the irish system. to kill a baby at late stage in pregnancy because theres a chance he/she wont survive murder

[Niamh.]

well I thin there is a lot to be said in favourof the irish system. to kill a baby at late stage in pregnancy because theres a chance he/she wont survive is murder

here this is it I think, and It's not a chance they won't survive, they definitely won't survive

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/damned-if-they-do-20121029-28e7r.html

[the truth]

here this is it I think, and It's not a chance they won't survive, they definitely won't survive

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/damned-if-they-do-20121029-28e7r.html

This is a one in a million case, the majority of cases in which babies are killed off is with babies who will survive. why dont you focus on the 191000 cases who would survive not the 1 in a million who wouldnt?

once you open the door the mass murder of babies in the womb, you end up with 191000 dead babies killed in silence every year without a voice, without a chance to live. Yet the majority on here dont give a damn about the rights of the murdered 191000 a year, all they care about is how offended the mother is or how angry the radical ffeminists are. the rights of the baby are ignored and people just laugh at the rights and feelings of the father who has his new born child murdered

[Niamh.]

This is a one in a million case, the majority of cases in which babies are killed off is with babies who will survive. why dont you focus on the 191000 cases who would survive not the 1 in a million who wouldnt?

once you open the door the mass murder of babies in the womb, you end up with 191000 dead babies killed in silence every year without a voice, without a chance to live. Yet the majority on here dont give a damn about the rights of the murdered 191000 a year, all they care about is how offended the mother is or how angry the radical ffeminists are. the rights of the baby are ignored and people just laugh at the rights and feelings of the father who has his new born child murdered

Well, if you'd bothered to read my other posts and not just picked that one, you'll see that I'm not "for" abortion at all. And it's not just one in a million, there were quite a few cases of that having happened in Ireland, as I've said abortion is illegal here so the issue of cases like this one being allowed to be dealt with in Ireland is more of an issue for us on medical grounds.

[Ammi]

..I know that you're probably well intentioned truth..but it isn't up to you or anyone else to 'challenge' anything..you have your views and other people have theres and there isn't anything to be challenged..regardless of what facts, figures or research you do...people will gather their own thoughts based on personal life experience too..and that's what makes us all who we are....

[AnnieK]

The truth you are too blinkered to even read the whole thread.....I actually think you are unable to have an adult debate....the members you have attacked have been the most vocal on their pro-life views.

[Marsh.]

Where have you got 191,000 babies from?

[EddyEagal]

I think abortion is fine. Sometimes getting pregnant could be a mistake. When it is a mistake, then it would be irresponsible of the woman to keep the baby. I'm not a parent, but I can still tell that being a parent is the biggest responsibility ever, and becoming a parent should only be something which you want to happen.

If the baby was planned but something happened during the pregnancy (break up ect) then I think it is still responsible to have an abortion. For example if the woman was with a man who was offering a stable life for the baby, but then leaves, then IF the woman wants an abortion, then that's right. I'm not saying a relationship is more important than the baby, but relationships provide a good life for the baby - NOT in all situations.

So basically I think it's wrong for a woman to keep a baby if they don't actually want it.

I get that a lot of people will disagree with me, and that's fine, and I'm not saying that everyone should agree eith me either :)

[Benjamin]

Abortion is fine in certain circumstances. Pregnancy through rape for example is a time where abortion is needed. However those people who are just careless through lack of contraception really should think more carefully; although I'd rather they terminate as opposed to bringing a new life into the world if its not wanted.

[Roy Mars III]

youre right , I dont want to or expect anyone to agree or change views, Im not angry tbh just shouting down the sick comments and challenging the disgusting abortion figures.straight talking is needed when the end result is ultimately 191000 babies, I dont mind being destroyed I have no ego....Its the issue that matters most. all the mealy mouthed debates in the world dont change the fact our abortion rates are out of control and 191000 babies are dead. people on here seem to care more about trivial issues than 191000 dead babies

the problem with your posts, and this is true for many people who do not agree with abortion is that you try to vilify people who are pro-choice, as if they have no appreciate of human life. Like I said earlier in the thread, my opinion in the matter is a mixed, but i know enough to say that vilifying people who are pro-choice is not the way to go.

[EddyEagal]

Abortion is fine in certain circumstances. Pregnancy through rape for example is a time where abortion is needed. However those people who are just careless through lack of contraception really should think more carefully; although I'd rather they terminate as opposed to bringing a new life into the world if its not wanted.

This is exactly what I was trying to get accross in my post. Well said ukturtle :)

[the truth]

the problem with your posts, and this is true for many people who do not agree with abortion is that you try to vilify people who are pro-choice, as if they have no appreciate of human life. Like I said earlier in the thread, my opinion in the matter is a mixed, but i know enough to say that vilifying people who are pro-choice is not the way to go.

the Uk has tried it your way and abortion has gone through the roof, time for straight talking and time for tough love. you choose to mealy mouth, I choose to fight for the dead babies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

the abortions have gone from around 20,000 to 190000 in the space of 4 decades. meanwhile the pro abortionists want to make it easier to get an abortion, thus taking the whole moral choice out of it.

[the truth]

This is exactly what I was trying to get accross in my post. Well said ukturtle :)

No its nothing like what you said. what you said was sick.

[Mystic Mock]

EddyEagal didn't say anything that nasty on what I read.

[EddyEagal]

No its nothing like what you said. what you said was sick.

Sorry, how was what I said sick? Could you explain that? :/

[Ammi]

..I think if you choose to fight for 'dead babies'...a forum isn't a place to do it truth...this isn't a place for fights...it's a place for people to voice opinions..and to respect the opinions of others, no matter how oppose to them they are...

[Roy Mars III]

the Uk has tried it your way and abortion has gone through the roof, time for straight talking and time for tough love. you choose to mealy mouth, I choose to fight for the dead babies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

the abortions have gone from around 20,000 to 190000 in the space of 4 decades. meanwhile the pro abortionists want to make it easier to get an abortion, thus taking the whole moral choice out of it.

saying things like that is what's stopping any of the sort of stuff you're talking about. No one is going to sit down and talk about these things when they're called 'baby killers' by the other side

[Marsh.]

Take a valium and have a lie down.

[Ammi]

..and you'll never get any opinion across by personally insulting someone..once you do that, you're opinion is lost...

[the truth]

..I think if you choose to fight for 'dead babies'...a forum isn't a place to do it truth...this isn't a place for fights...it's a place for people to voice opinions..and to respect the opinions of others, no matter how oppose to them they are...

youre trying to tell me what to say and how to say it, thanks but I reject your advice. if I tell you how to say things and what to say you dont like it, so dont be hypocritical

anyways back the the topic

According to official statistics, there were just over 700,000 live births in England and Wales in 2010. The fact that there were 190,000 abortions indicates that over one in five pregnancies were terminated - a truly horrendous figure!

[Niamh.]

..and you'll never get any opinion across by personally insulting someone..once you do that, you're opinion is lost...

Exactly.

[Ammi]

youre trying to tell me what to say and how to say it, thanks but I reject your advice. if I tell you how to say things and what to say you dont like it, so dont be hypocritical

anyways back the the topic

According to official statistics, there were just over 700,000 live births in England and Wales in 2010. The fact that there were 190,000 abortions indicates that over one in five pregnancies were terminated - a truly horrendous figure!

..ok..talk amongst yourself...

[the truth]

Exactly.

if you believe that why didnt you tell the poster off for calling me a moron and others for mocking assissinations and laughing about abortion? or is it one rule for one and another rule for other people? smeels like hypocrisy.

[Mystic Mock]

The Truth only needs to tone it down a little bit as he makes some interesting points in his posts, but when he goes on some argumentative rampage I just don't want to keep reading his posts all the time.

[Marsh.]

If it was a well thought out rampage it would be fine, but it isn't.

He's not even reading and acknowledging what is actually being written.

[the truth]

..ok..talk amongst yourself...

so you wont talk to me unless I comply fully with exactly the way you want me to talk? control freakery. Anyway Ill rise above that and keep fighting for the rights of the 191000 beautiful innocent dead babies

[the truth]

If it was a well thought out rampage it would be fine, but it isn't.

He's not even reading and acknowledging what is actually being written.

still avoiding the issue. forget the messenger follow the message

According to official statistics, there were just over 700,000 live births in England and Wales in 2010. The fact that there were 190,000 abortions indicates that over one in five pregnancies were terminated - a truly horrendous figure!

[Redway]

Jesus christ.

[AnnieK]

Jesus christ.

I don't think even he can salvage this thread now.

[Niamh.]

I don't think even he can salvage this thread now.

:laugh:

[the truth]

Jesus christ.

yeah he used to heal the blind and the sick and the disabled, he didnt preach aborting them in the womb!

[Ammi]

so you wont talk to me unless I comply fully with exactly the way you want me to talk? control freakery. Anyway Ill rise above that and keep fighting for the rights of the 191000 beautiful innocent dead babies

..no, I have nothing to add to your posts because you won't acknowledge anyone else's views...so then it becomes a pointless stalemate..you may not agree with them, but to blinker yourself to others opinions and insult them for having them, makes any kind of debate impossible...

[Marsh.]

:laugh:

:mad: Stop laughing at the babies. Witch.

[the truth]

..no, I have nothing to add to your posts because you won't acknowledge anyone else's views...so then it becomes a pointless stalemate..you may not agree with them, but to blinker yourself to others opinions and insult them for having them, makes any kind of debate impossible...

Untrue. I follow the debate. you dont (at least not all the time) instead youve made it your business to try and tell me how to communicate to others. I reject your instructions. I on the other hand think you and others should follow the message and not the messenger (i.e.me) but youre failing to contribute to the thread now and you dont seem to have much to say about the 191000 dead babies? why?

[Marsh.]

he didnt preach aborting them in the womb!

Name me one forum member who has preached about aborting babies.

[Niamh.]

:mad: Stop laughing at the babies. Witch.

Sorry, my bad? :blush:

[Marsh.]

you dont seem to have much to say about the 191000 dead babies? why?

What exactly do you expect people to say?
They've all given their opinion and discussed it before your rant.

[Mystic Mock]

Name me one forum member who has preached about aborting babies.

Apparently EddyEagal said something sick.:joker:

[Benjamin]

if you believe that why didnt you tell the poster off for calling me a moron and others for mocking assissinations and laughing about abortion? or is it one rule for one and another rule for other people? smeels like hypocrisy.

I suggest you calm yourself down. People tend to value the opinions of others when they get their point across without being rude or argumentative.

[Marsh.]

Finally, the voice of reason.

[AnnieK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by the truth
you dont seem to have much to say about the 191000 dead babies? why?

People had plenty to say in the first 7 pages of this thread....when this was an adult, civilised debate

[Ammi]

Untrue. I follow the debate. you dont (at least not all the time) instead youve made it your business to try and tell me how to communicate to others. I reject your instructions. I on the other hand think you and others should follow the message and not the messenger (i.e.me) but youre failing to contribute to the thread now and you dont seem to have much to say about the 191000 dead babies? why?

..it comes to a point when you have nothing to add to a thread..other, than perhaps commenting on something interesting someone else has to say...

..I've reached that point now..there is nothing I can add of any value..so I will leave you to your discussion...

[the truth]

I think abortion is fine. Sometimes getting pregnant could be a mistake. When it is a mistake, then it would be irresponsible of the woman to keep the baby. I'm not a parent, but I can still tell that being a parent is the biggest responsibility ever, and becoming a parent should only be something which you want to happen.

If the baby was planned but something happened during the pregnancy (break up ect) then I think it is still responsible to have an abortion. For example if the woman was with a man who was offering a stable life for the baby, but then leaves, then IF the woman wants an abortion, then that's right. I'm not saying a relationship is more important than the baby, but relationships provide a good life for the baby - NOT in all situations.

So basically I think it's wrong for a woman to keep a baby if they don't actually want it.

I get that a lot of people will disagree with me, and that's fine, and I'm not saying that everyone should agree eith me either :)

I presume everyone agrees with this ?

[AnnieK]

I presume everyone agrees with this ?

Personally, no. But he is perfectly entitled to have that opinion. As you are yours. You don't agree with him nor him with you, end of.

[the truth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by the truth
you dont seem to have much to say about the 191000 dead babies? why?

People had plenty to say in the first 7 pages of this thread....when this was an adult, civilised debate

the one that went nowehere and pretty much supported the status quo with the odd poster suggesting reducing the time limit

[Redway]

yeah he used to heal the blind and the sick and the disabled, he didnt preach aborting them in the womb!

Wow. How funny. Not. You've pretty much ruined my thread with your inane ramblings and nonsensical posts, not even bothering to take into account the possibility of someone having a different opinion to you, y'know?

[the truth]

Personally, no. But he is perfectly entitled to have that opinion. As you are yours. You don't agree with him nor him with you, end of.

yes he is and so am I . so I shouldnt becriticized for putting across my opinions. I have also NOT name called whereas others have, yet those name callers have not been criticized, which makes some people on here biased and hypocritical. meanwhile lets get back on topic. How do we reduce this staggering number of abortions?

[Marsh.]

I presume everyone agrees with this ?

Then you presume wrong. If you actually calm down and read the thread you would actually see and maybe understand everyone's slightly differing views.

Vilifying someone isn't going to help your cause. Especially on a Big Brother forum.

[AnnieK]

the one that went nowehere and pretty much supported the status quo with the odd poster suggesting reducing the time limit

As opposed to this that has descended into chaos, insults and the end of reasonable debate.

[the truth]

Wow. How funny. Not. You've pretty much ruined my thread with your inane ramblings and nonsensical posts, not even bothering to take into account the possibility of someone having a different opinion to you, y'know?

191000 dead babies up from 20000+ 40 years ago. how do we reduce this enormous number?

[the truth]

Then you presume wrong. If you actually calm down and read the thread you would actually see and maybe understand everyone's slightly differing views.

Vilifying someone isn't going to help your cause. Especially on a Big Brother forum.

yes so stop villifying me:dance:

[Marsh.]

yes so stop villifying me:dance:

Then stop throwing anger around.

You overreacted to Niamh's smiley face and now you're doing a dance???

[Niamh.]

191000 dead babies up from 20000+ 40 years ago. how do we reduce this enormous number?

The topic of the thread is not How to reduce the enormous number of abortions, stay on topic and please stop repeating the same thing over and over, it's spam.

[Redway]

191000 dead babies up from 20000+ 40 years ago. how do we reduce this enormous number?

Just go away. Seriously. I'm sure we all understand your point (you've been banging on about it for the past five pages). Fair enough if you don't like - or even respect - our views but why the need to throw insults at someone simply because they don't agree with you? Unless something particularly takes the piss, I don't see the need in abusing others.

[the truth]

redway ive not abused you or anyone, why are you lying and avoiding the topic. how do we reduce the 191000 abortions?

[the truth]

The topic of the thread is not How to reduce the enormous number of abortions, stay on topic and please stop repeating the same thing over and over, it's spam.

Eeveryone repeats themselves. whydont you challenge others who repeat themselves or throw insults around? it appears youre biased and especially against people who dare challenge or question your opinions. please try to be open minded.

[Redway]

We're not talking about that, though, are we? You either stick to the topic or leave.

I'd have thought it was that obvious. Mind, it's coming from you so none of this surprises me...

[the truth]

Then stop throwing anger around.

You overreacted to Niamh's smiley face and now you're doing a dance???

yes she did a smiley face when we were discussing, totally different context. My dance was purely based on me and my right to voice myopinion. anyways lets get back on topic. why do you back yourchosenoption on abortion, do you want it reduced and if so how?

[Marsh.]

please try to be open minded.

That works both ways.

[the truth]

We're not talking about that, though, are we? You either stick to the topic or leave.

I'd have thought it was that obvious. Mind, it's coming from you so none of this surprises me...

yes we are talking about abortion, these are all directly related to the issue. are you threatening to throw me out for stating my opinions and asking questions relating to the topic?

[the truth]

That works both ways.

Im open minded Ive read all your replies and I still cant find clarity in your opinions on the matter. why dont you just te;ll us what you think can be done about abortion? what are you afraid of?

[Marsh.]

Im open minded

No, you clearly are not.

Calling someone sick without discussing the matter is close minded.

As said earlier, mine and other people's opinions were discussed at length in the first 7 pages of the thread. I refer you to those.

[AnnieK]

Im open minded Ive read all your replies and I still cant find clarity in your opinions on the matter. why dont you just te;ll us what you think can be done about abortion? what are you afraid of?

Marsh has already expressed his opinions clearly and concisely, as did everyone else. From yesterday's discussions I would say he is totally unafraid to do so.

[the truth]

No, you clearly are not.

Calling someone sick without discussing the matter is close minded.

As said earlier, my opinion was discussed at length in the first 7 pages of the thread. I refer you to those.

wrong again. I called the comment sick not the person.

ive discussed it for 2 hours, Ive put forward links, genuins opinions, facts to back it up, also suffered verbal abuse , which youve ignored, been told how to speak and what to say. You on thether hand have provided virtually no contribution to the topic at hand. Ive read loads of articles listen to loads of opinions and made lengthy posts and also asked others for sincere opinions. youre contribution is almost non existent. meanwhile 191000 babies die. how do we reduce that number?

[the truth]

Marsh has already expressed his opinions clearly and concisely, as did everyone else. From yesterday's discussions I would say he is totally unafraid to do so.

No he hasnt. by the way why are you coming and defending another poster? why dont you concern yourself with stating your opinion on the topic itself, perhaps defending the voicelss dead babies is more important than defending marsh?

[Munchkins]

wrong again. I called the comment sick not the person.

ive discussed it for 2 hours, Ive put forward links, genuins opinions, facts to back it up, also suffered verbal abuse , which youve ignored, been told how to speak and what to say. You on thether hand have provided virtually no contribution to the topic at hand. Ive read loads of articles listen to loads of opinions and made lengthy posts and also asked others for sincere opinions. youre contribution is almost non existent. meanwhile 191000 babies die. how do we reduce that number?

You have thrown insults around, i'm a sick bitch because of one comment and apparently succuming to peer pressure
All you can do is repeat the point about 191,000 babies, What are YOU doing to reduce that number?

[the truth]

You have thrown insults around, i'm a sick bitch because of one comment and apparently succuming to peer pressure
All you can do is repeat the point about 191,000 babies, What are YOU doing to reduce that number?

challenging the radical opinions that created and support a system that allows 191000 babies to be aborted each year. what are you doing?

[Ammi]

Im open minded Ive read all your replies and I still cant find clarity in your opinions on the matter. why dont you just te;ll us what you think can be done about abortion? what are you afraid of?

..the thing abortion is an option, which is explored between the pregnant lady and her doctor/clinic..there isn't anything that can be done about that..not unless it's legislated against..so that isn't a question for anyone to answer..just to express whether they feel it's right or wrong...and I haven't seen anyone here say they thought it was right..just that they respect the personal choice of others..

[Munchkins]

challenging the radical opinions that created and support a system that allows 191000 babies to be aborted each year. what are you doing?

Encouraging people to get more support when they are in the situation, like one of my friends was
can definitely say i culd do more though

[AnnieK]

No he hasnt. by the way why are you coming and defending another poster? why dont you concern yourself with stating your opinion on the topic itself, perhaps defending the voicelss dead babies is more important than defending marsh?

I actually love the hypocrisy of your posts. It is beyond reason. I neither wish nor need to discuss anything further with you. Goodnight sir.

[the truth]

..the thing abortion is an option, which is explored between the pregnant lady and her doctor/clinic..there isn't anything that can be done about that..not unless it's legislated against..so that isn't a question for anyone to answer..just to express whether they feel it's right or wrong...and I haven't seen anyone here say they thought it was right..just that they respect the personal choice of others..

I think legislation is not the only answer, tighter regulation but not just blanket black and white laws. Its more a cultural issue and it needs to be approached from a different point of view. a point of view that offers far far greater support, knowledge and options. also an advocate for the mother and the family. This is a matter of life and death and must demand infinitely more time and attention. We dont really hear in detail the stories of these women, especially those women who regret their abortions. people who even open up the discussion are shouted down disgracefully. as was norreen dorries last year in parliament. The actual conversation itself has been virtually outlawed by radical peer pressure.

[the truth]

Encouraging people to get more support when they are in the situation, like one of my friends is
can definitely say i culd do more though

Women who are confused and scared or whatever when pregnant and thinking can I do this, can I support the child, etc etc etc etc They should also be made fully aware of the options open to her regarding adoptions and fostering. I dont believe for a minute this is being done consistently and regulated equally across all abortion clinics. This is where the state should come in.

[the truth]

You have thrown insults around, i'm a sick bitch because of one comment and apparently succuming to peer pressure
All you can do is repeat the point about 191,000 babies, What are YOU doing to reduce that number?

by the way I dodnt call you a sick bitch at all.

[Munchkins]

Women who are confused and scared or whatever when pregnant and thinking can I do this, can I support the child, etc etc etc etc They should also be made fully aware of the options open to her regarding adoptions and fostering. I dont believe for a minute this is being done consistently and regulated equally across all abortion clinics. This is where the state should come in.

They should be different a wide variety of options, like you said earlier, but then brings up the problem, of if they drag it out looking for different options, then the pregnancy will get longer, and if they have an abortion it will be a late abortion, but then again its still an abortion, and if it makes some people reconsider and have more confidence then its a good thing?

[Ammi]

I think legislation is not the only answer, tighter regulation but not just blanket black and white laws. Its more a cultural issue and it needs to be approached from a different point of view. a point of view that offers far far greater support, knowledge and options. also an advocate for the mother and the family. This is a matter of life and death and must demand infinitely more time and attention. We dont really hear in detail the stories of these women, especially those women who regret their abortions. people who even open up the discussion are shouted down disgracefully. as was norreen dorries last year in parliament. The actual conversation itself has been virtually outlawed by radical peer pressure.

..ok, well those are fair points and put across well..it sounds as though you could possibly consider perhaps training to council some of the women who find themselves faced with seriously considering this choice..if you aren't already...that would be a very constructive thing to do for somegthing you feel so passionately about..

[Kizzy]

..ok, well those are fair points and put across well..it sounds as though you could possibly consider perhaps training to council some of the women who find themselves faced with seriously considering this choice..if you aren't already...that would be a very constructive thing to do for somegthing you feel so passionately about..

They are good points expressed well as you say.
Why would he want to go into counseling though?...
We are all allowed opinions, just because you offer a reasoned debate, facts and statistics does not mean you wish to counsel in the subject... :)

[Mystic Mock]

You have thrown insults around, i'm a sick bitch because of one comment and apparently succuming to peer pressure
All you can do is repeat the point about 191,000 babies, What are YOU doing to reduce that number?

I like this post and agree with every word that your saying.:dance:

[Kizzy]

I know we all have differing opinions, but one thing is certain...
There are no easy options and no right or wrong answers.
The topic has so many, moral, social and ethical connotations that it makes it impossible reach a tangible conclusion.

Sorry to quote myself, but feel I need to reiterate why this issue will never be accepted by those socialized in such a way that their view on this issue is fundamentally inherent.

[the truth]

..ok, well those are fair points and put across well..it sounds as though you could possibly consider perhaps training to council some of the women who find themselves faced with seriously considering this choice..if you aren't already...that would be a very constructive thing to do for somegthing you feel so passionately about..

I employ many people, so thats not an option. I do contribute to charities , but in reality this is a government issue and the women and the families need a far greater support system thats consistent across the entire country. Women and their families need to be aware of all their options open to them including adoption and fostering. Theres thousands desperate to adopt a child. isnt it a wonderful option is for example a young pregnant woman is scared and confused , perhaps she is a teenager, with little income and little experience or understanding of the world or little support. she may panic and think abortion is the only choice. how many of these women really understand the options of adoption or fostering children?

You give birth to a beautiful child, it may be your only chance to have a child and its certainly thats childs only chance to live. You could choose to give birth and put up the child up for adoption. who knows in later years you may rekindle a relationship. by that time the child has grown a few years , safe and loved by a foster family. meanwhile the mother has the chance to grow and prosper and by that time it may be right moment to meet and build a relationship. isnt that scenario a bit brighter than the rushed abortion and a lifetime of regret? dont get me wrong my heart bleeds for these women , but it also bleeds for the babies. the way david cameron and the mp's shouted down nadine dirries asking questions on abortion in parliament turned my stomach.

This myth that the nhs covers all of this and everyone is satisfied with the service is nonsense. The system is profoundly lacking in all areas.

However when a woman like nadine dorries questions the current situation she is hated mocked and ignored? why?

because she is questioning the nhs? you are not allowed to question the biggest state employer in the world, you cant question the bad procedures, the nursing standards, the culture, the mixed services available, the profound regret women often feel, the fact they feel they have little alternatives often and as the voices of th eunborn child and the fathers are barely even considered. Its very unhealthy to live in a country where the individual hasnt got a voice against the power of the system

[the truth]

I like this post and agree with every word that your saying.:dance:

why ?because its untrue?

[the truth]

Sorry to quote myself, but feel I need to reiterate why this issue will never be accepted by those socialized in such a way that their view on this issue is fundamentally inherent.

i agree its sad but many here have been socialized in such a way they dont seem able to comprehend the tragedy of the unborn child ., nor do they account for the varying standards of abortion clinics and the lack of options given to the mothers and their families. These radicals need to be more open minded.

[Mystic Mock]

why ?because its untrue?

Yes I agree with Munchkins because she tells lies about you and I don't think all of the stuff about you that she hasn't already said for me.

Am I just one of many members that has no mind of my own and can only form opinions off other members?