anuvva dilemma :)

[Kizzy]

I fancied a go at one of these....

Ben is 22 his girlfriend just had a baby girl, he was laid off 6 days ago as there is no work in the area. Whilst at the post office cashing his giro the harrassed mum of 4 in front of hin in the queue sticks her purse with her £60 income support in the hood of the pram. On the way out she knocks the buggy on the door and her purse falls on the floor, the kids are screaming so she doesn't notice. Ben picks up the purse, hesitates then sticks it in his pocket.

Toby is 22 his wife laura just had their son james, he was made redundant after 18 months working for a local firm 6 days ago.
Whilst at the cash machine waiting to withdraw the last of his savings, the old lady in front steadys herself before making her way down the street. She has not taken her £60 withdrawal and it is still sticking out of the machine. Toby takes the money, hesitates then puts it in his wallet.

Of all the people in this dilemma who do you have the most sympathy for?
Who do you have the least sympathy for?.....

[GypsyGoth]

The screaming kids.

[thesheriff443]

well i have left cash in a machine and had it handed back,i also gets lots of these types of situations,i always hand it back,

[Ammi]

..are you talking about the people who stole or the people they stole off...?

..the people who stole did wrong..the people who they stole off deserve equal sympathy....

[Kizzy]

..are you talking about the people who stole or the people they stole off...?

..the people who stole did wrong..the people who they stole off deserve equal sympathy....

Everybody involved in the story. ben, toby, the babies, the partners, the old woman, the lone parent, her kids......
If theres no intent is it really stealing?...

[Ammi]

..of course there is intent..they took something that didn't belong to them..they could have returned them to the people who they belonged them or handed them into the bank/post office..they intentionally stole....

..so the answer is yes, it is really stealing...no less than any other theft....

[thesheriff443]

Everybody involved in the story. ben, toby, the babies, the partners, the old woman, the lone parent, her kids......
If theres no intent is it really stealing?...

in the eyes of the law its stealing.

[Ammi]

..in the eyes of the law and morally...

[thesheriff443]

..in the eyes of the law and morally...

that goes without saying.

[Ammi]

..well if I didn't say it my post count wouldn't go up Sheriff...

[Kizzy]

Well as this is a moral dilemma the law isn't the issue.
When I say intent to steal I mean there was no premeditation.
A split second judgement, does that make sense?
Neither man had any idea prior to that moment what he would do.
Does that make them as bad as muggers and shoplifters?

[thesheriff443]

Well as this is a moral dilemma the law isn't the issue.
When I say intent to steal I mean there was no premeditation.
A split second judgement, does that make sense?
Neither man had any idea prior to that moment what he would do.
Does that make them as bad as muggers and shoplifters?

in a way yes.

[Ammi]

..yes...

..if a murder isn't premeditated, it doesn't make the victim any less dead....

[thesheriff443]

..yes...

..if a murder isn't premeditated, it doesn't make the victim any less dead....

but then its manslaugther not murder:joker:
but i know what you are saying.

[Kizzy]

but then its manslaugther not murder:joker:
but i know what you are saying.

Lucky old you! :D

[Nedusa]

Is this a moral dilemma or is it just theft plain and simple. Just because the circumstances of these thefts raise moral questions, it does not really detract from the theft itself.

[Kizzy]

..yes...

..if a murder isn't premeditated, it doesn't make the victim any less dead....

I really don't understand that analogy ammi, :)
murder/manslaughter would involve physically interacting with the 'victim' this doesn't.

[joeysteele]

Okay, the lady with the buggy and her purse dropping onto the ground,she is the one I feel sympathy for there, Ben should have made sure she got the purse back, since it would also likely have her name somewhere on it.Even moreso though since he saw the incident where she dropped it.
He was wrong although I feel sorry for his situation.

Again, the old lady leaving cash sticking out the machine,obviously you would feel sorry for her however,I have some sympathy too for Toby there since he was going to be down to the last of his savings knowingly.
Had she walked off and him not seen her leave the cash in the machine then I likely could understand him just keeping those funds.
However as again, he had seen her leave the cash there, then he should have called her back or took it to her.
I feel sorry for all of them though in a way.

The instances above though remind me of an incident when I was in my teens.
I had a friend who found a wallet once, fortunately for him, there were 6 of us with him when he found it,he handed it straight in to a Police station,however the owner said over £20 was missing from it.
Had my friend not had so many people with him at the time he found it,it could have got a bit unpleasant for him.
He swore after that,he'd never hand a wallet in again.

[thesheriff443]

I really don't understand that analogy ammi, :)
murder/manslaughter would involve physically interacting with the 'victim' this doesn't.

its doing something that is wrong by chance or planning to do it.

[Ammi]

I really don't understand that analogy ammi, :)
murder/manslaughter would involve physically interacting with the 'victim' this doesn't.

..you don't have to physically interact with someone to steal from them...that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever..

[Livia]

It's theft. There is no dilemma.

[Vicky.]

I agree with all those saying theft is theft.

However I would be inclined to feel less sympathy for the woman who left cash sticking out of the machine than for the harassed mother. Anyone who doesnt realise they havent taken their cash from a cash machine, has too much of it IMO. Not that it makes it right to steal though...just sayin :p

[thesheriff443]

It's theft. There is no dilemma.

but you didnt see it that way in the robin hood thread:conf:

[thesheriff443]

I agree with all those saying theft is theft.

However I would be inclined to feel less sympathy for the woman who left cash sticking out of the machine than for the harassed mother. Anyone who doesnt realise they havent taken their cash from a cash machine, has too much of it IMO. Not that it makes it right to steal though...just sayin :p

when you have a lot on your mind its an easy thing to do.

[AnnieK]

Yeah, I have to agree, it's theft. No matter how dire my circumstances, I couldn't do it take the money and live with it

[Niamh.]

but you didnt see it that way in the robin hood thread:conf:

Banks are insured so it's a win/win situation :idc:

[AnnieK]

when you have a lot on your mind its an easy thing to do.

Yeah, I agree with that. I did it once on my lunch when I had a million things to get, I realised though and scared an old man to death racing him to the cash point to get it back....I think he thought I was going to attack him and spent the next 5 minutes trying to explain....he still thought I was crazy when I walked away:joker:

[Livia]

but you didnt see it that way in the robin hood thread:conf:

Stealing from a bank and giving the money to an orphanage isn't the same thing as pocketing someone's benefit or pension. Is it.

[Ammi]

I agree with all those saying theft is theft.

However I would be inclined to feel less sympathy for the woman who left cash sticking out of the machine than for the harassed mother. Anyone who doesnt realise they havent taken their cash from a cash machine, has too much of it IMO. Not that it makes it right to steal though...just sayin :p

..she was an old lady Vicky..she was probably a bit dithery...

[thesheriff443]

Stealing from a bank and giving the money to an orphanage isn't the same thing as pocketing someone's benefit or pension. Is it.

its no different,
what you use stolen money for should have no influence on the fact its theft.

[Livia]

its no different,
what you use stolen money for should have no influence on the fact its theft.

Legally, no. But are these "moral" dilemmas, are they not?

If you want my legal opinion I'm afraid I'm going to have to charge you, Sheriff.

[thesheriff443]

Legally, no. But are these "moral" dilemmas, are they not?

If you want my legal opinion I'm afraid I'm going to have to charge you, Sheriff.

i cant afford you livia!

[thesheriff443]

Legally, no. But are these "moral" dilemmas, are they not?

If you want my legal opinion I'm afraid I'm going to have to charge you, Sheriff.

its a case of putting morals before the law.

[Livia]

i cant afford you livia!

We finally agree.

[thesheriff443]

We finally agree.

only on your legal opinion!

[Livia]

only on your legal opinion!

You didn't get my legal opinion. You got my moral opinion... which is free.

[thesheriff443]

You didn't get my legal opinion. You got my moral opinion... which is free.

no, im saying i cant afford your legal opinion.

[Kizzy]

Well, It is interesting that morally most think it's theft, I had a sneak peek at the CPS website and legally it seems it's not from what I can see (can't copy & paste soz) but it's seen as 'dishonest'...
What I was really after with this was an opinion on the two men involved.
Only joey commented on both of them, I feel he felt more sympathy for toby than ben even though I tried to keep the senarios as similar as possible.

[thesheriff443]

Well, It is interesting that morally most think it's theft, I had a sneak peek at the CPS website and legally it seems it's not from what I can see (can't copy & paste soz) but it's seen as 'dishonest'...
What I was really after with this was an opinion on the two men involved.
Only joey commented on both of them, I feel he felt more sympathy for toby than ben even though I tried to keep the senarios as similar as possible.

you could reverse this by having ben and toby lose their money!
my opinion is,if your struggling for money it still does not make it right to take someone elses.

[Kizzy]

..you don't have to physically interact with someone to steal from them...that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever..

You mentioned murder not me! :joker:

[thesheriff443]

You mentioned murder not me! :joker:

dont give us ideas:joker:

[Kizzy]

you could reverse this by having ben and toby lose their money!
my opinion is,if your struggling for money it still does not make it right to take someone elses.

Thankyou! thats sort of what I was after... they were both as bad as each other, but I thought opinion may be divided more due to the(hinted) social differences of ben and toby.
Or there would have been those more annoyed due to the 'victims'. Personally I would have said taking from the old lady was worse....
Anyhoo, the old lady won £6 million on the lottery that week and shared it with her granddaughter and her 4 kids ;)

[thesheriff443]

Thankyou! thats sort of what I was after... they were both as bad as each other, but I thought opinion may be divided more due to the(hinted) social differences of ben and toby.
Or there would have been those more annoyed due to the 'victims'. Personally I would have said taking from the old lady was worse....
Anyhoo, the old lady won £6 million on the lottery that week and shared it with her granddaughter and her 4 kids ;)

is she single:joker:
now thats a joke before we start another moral dilema!

[Ammi]

I really don't understand that analogy ammi,
murder/manslaughter would involve physically interacting with the 'victim' this doesn't


..you don't have to physically interact with someone to steal from them...that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever..

You mentioned murder not me! :joker:

..so I presume you're saying a crime involves physical contact with the victim, otherwise it's questionable that it's a crime...what you quoted made no reference to murder at all..that was used in an analogy in a previous post...so that reply to the quoted post is completely irrelevant and makes no sense at all....

[Kizzy]

I really don't understand that analogy ammi,
murder/manslaughter would involve physically interacting with the 'victim' this doesn't


..you don't have to physically interact with someone to steal from them...that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever..



..so I presume you're saying a crime involves physical contact with the victim, otherwise it's questionable that it's a crime...what you quoted made no reference to murder at all..that was used in an analogy in a previous post...so that reply to the quoted post is completely irrelevant and makes no sense at all....

No... I was not saying that at all, embezzlement is theft without contact.
My point with this dilemma was showing both men totally innocent but making a decision due to an opportunity that arose.
We knew their personal circumstances, so I wondered if anyone would feel sympathetic to their situations?
I don't know who's more confused by your post ammi me or you! haha!

[Livia]

Allow me to step away from the moral dilemma and clear something up. “Theft” is taking another person’s property without their consent in order to permanently deprive that person of the said property. There is no way to dress it up. The perpetrator is not means tested to gauge how guilty they are. Being poor yourself is not a mitigating circumstance. If you purposefully take something that does not belong to you, it is theft.

[Kizzy]

Allow me to step away from the moral dilemma and clear something up. “Theft” is taking another person’s property without their consent in order to permanently deprive that person of the said property. There is no way to dress it up. The perpetrator is not means tested to gauge how guilty they are. Being poor yourself is not a mitigating circumstance. If you purposefully take something that does not belong to you, it is theft.

No sorry ... this is a moral dilemma not a legal dilemma livia.
:)
:eek: I hope this advice is not a cash in hand job! *tsk*

[Ammi]

..haha indeed Kizzy...so the next time I pass someone who drops their purse, I’ll pop it in my pocket and expect a debate on what sympathy I deserve...after all I didn’t intentionally set out to steal something. It was an opportunity not to be missed..which makes my deed perfectly acceptable...

..I said in my first post that my sympathy lay equally with the two victims and not the people who took from them..there is no excuse for taking something which doesn’t belong to you..whether those victims dropped something/left something is irrelevant..it didn’t belong to the person taking it....the victims were the innocents...

..I have made my posts very clear and am not confused at all..I have responded to the OP, in that I have stated where my sympathies lay...I presume as this is seen as a ‘serious debate’, we can get rid of the ‘hahas’ and debate it as adults...I don’t appreciate the condescending comments either to myself or other members....

..for myself I’m going to consider this as debated as I have nothing further to add to this thread....

[Kizzy]

..haha indeed Kizzy...so the next time I pass someone who drops their purse, I’ll pop it in my pocket and expect a debate on what sympathy I deserve...after all I didn’t intentionally set out to steal something. It was an opportunity not to be missed..which makes my deed perfectly acceptable...

..I said in my first post that my sympathy lay equally with the two victims and not the people who took from them..there is no excuse for taking something which doesn’t belong to you..whether those victims dropped something/left something is irrelevant..it didn’t belong to the person taking it....the victims were the innocents...

..I have made my posts very clear and am not confused at all..I have responded to the OP, in that I have stated where my sympathies lay...I presume as this is seen as a ‘serious debate’, we can get rid of the ‘hahas’ and debate it as adults...I don’t appreciate the condescending comments either to myself or other members....

..for myself I’m going to consider this as debated as I have nothing further to add to this thread....

Ammi, what are you taking offence at?......
The 'moral debate' was intending to focus on the situations rather than the act itself.
I understood you felt sympathy for the victims, and a serious debate can contain humour.
As far as condescension goes I at times felt I picked that up from yourself, I can be quite sensitive at times however.
Thankyou for your comments In this thread, i'm sorry you thought any part of it was offensive.

[Livia]

No sorry ... this is a moral dilemma not a legal dilemma livia.
:)
:eek: I hope this advice is not a cash in hand job! *tsk*

As much as it pains me to have to reply to you, you are the one Googling the CPS and telling us that it's not theft, it's dishonesty. You brought the CPS into it, not me. So I thought I would give you the benefit of my professional knowledge to put you right.

Incidentally, I pay plenty of tax, and I never work cash in hand. However, I am always happy to do a little pro bono work. Let's say that's what this is.

[Niamh.]

Stay on topic please

[Cherie]

My sympathies would lie with the victims who in this case are the harrassed Mum, most people with children will have been in that situation where they have been distracted in public by their children and left vulnerable. Also the old lady as anyone with respect for her property and her age would not take her money. It makes no difference that the thieves are on their uppers.

[Kizzy]

Yes, I think so too... it is made worse by the fact the victims are vulnerable.
I checked before posting into the criminal side, if the accused does not consider himself dishonest then it is for the prosecution to prove otherwise, and the jury to decide guilt.
Some people may think they did nothing wrong, that it was the victims fault for not looking after their property correctly?...

[Cherie]

Yes, I think so too... it is made worse by the fact the victims are vulnerable.
I checked before posting into the criminal side, if the accused does not consider himself dishonest then it is for the prosecution to prove otherwise, and the jury to decide guilt.
Some people may think they did nothing wrong, that it was the victims fault for not looking after their property correctly?...

It is wrong, it is no different to forgetting to lock your front door or leaving downstairs window open, and a thief gaining easy access and helping themselves.

[Kizzy]

It is wrong, it is no different to forgetting to lock your front door or leaving downstairs window open, and a thief gaining easy access and helping themselves.

Funny you should use that analogy, there was a case recently where an offender was instructed to write a letter of apology to his victim from prison.
However the burglar instead of saying sorry chastised the victim for leaving their lights off and wimdow open...
He laid full blame for his crime on them!
I can't copy and paste atm but it was all over the papers.