The UK is $10.4 trillion in debt

[the truth]

we are second only the US in total debt (external debt includes public and private debts)

However the US GDP exceeds their total debt, ours does not.

In short we are in unimaginable economic trouble. Our debt per head is $144,000 per person. We are in effect slaves to the enormous corporations who own our country and the foreign nations who own our unpayable debts

This is also the reason we are permanently at war (us and america0 simply because we cannot afford not to be!

How did we get here ,

1) we couldnt afford to repay the americans for the 2nd world war
2) militant labour bankrupted the nation in the 1970s
3)the short term psycho, maggie thatcher sold off the nation and privatised the utilies and public transport. she also destroyed industry and flooded the coal mines so destroying 1000 years of coal. she made a fast profit, but 20 years later weve run out of energy and lost all control of our own resources. you can now target cleaner coal by finding the exact coal seams and the costs and environmental damage is tiny. thatcher was a puppet of the rich, I could write for days about how she dismantled the steel the coal industries. 4) we entered illegal wars
5) we put all our eggs in one basket. the financial services market. this meant we were enslaved to them, gave them too much power, deregulated them, now we are too scared and too powerless to turn back the clock and tighten up regulations and tax loopholes
6) we sold out news to a a corrupt media mogul, which enslaved our politicians to his news corporations. this also perverted the legal system and policing further. it also played as all against each other. the rich divide and conquer is the same tactic theyve used for 3000 years and we all fall for it. we poor peasants argue over the tiny things and forget we actually agree over the major issues

7) weve also lost our moral compass totally. Nero fiddled as rome burned. with the UK we fiddled over fox hunting and kept fiddling over trivial issues like gay marriage (just make a decison and move on), as the rest of the nation burned. The bankruptcy of the nation, the collapse of families, of the NHS, of teen pregnancy, of drugs,the abortion capital of the world, the booze obsession, the police and public service corruption and waste and of course of global warming



1 United Kingdom $10,450,000,000,000
2 Germany $4,489,000,000,000
3 France $4,396,000,000,000
4 Italy $2,345,000,000,000
5 Netherlands $2,277,000,000,000
6 Spain $2,047,000,000,000
7 Ireland $1,841,000,000,000
8 Belgium $1,313,000,000,000
9 Austria $752,500,000,000
10 Sweden $598,200,000,000
11 Denmark $492,600,000,000
12 Portugal $415,500,000,000
13 Greece $371,500,000,000
14 Finland $271,200,000,000
15 Poland $187,800,000,000
16 Hungary $142,900,000,000
17 Romania $85,860,000,000
18 Czech Republic $61,740,000,000
19 Slovenia $40,420,000,000
20 Slovakia $36,660,000,000

[Livia]

Great Britain paid off its war debt in full, the final payment being made in December 2006.

[Jesus.]

Debt is almost irrelevant at this stage. You have to create growth to be able to pay stuff down. It's the only way out of this mess. When the country is in a healthier financial situation, then debt can be paid down, but at the moment investment in infrastructure and job creation is the way forward.

[MTVN]

What's your source for this figure?

[Iceman]

http://www.debt-clock.org/

[MTVN]

Even then it just says

by 2014/15 the national debt is predicted to rise to £1.4 trillion.

I know the debt is high but I haven't heard it being as high as £10.4 trillion before

[the truth]

Great Britain paid off its war debt in full, the final payment being made in December 2006.

it was a debt we were saddled with for 61 years.

[the truth]

simply type in external debt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AList_of_countries_by_external_debt

[the truth]

last years figures for all nations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

[the truth]

Debt is almost irrelevant at this stage. You have to create growth to be able to pay stuff down. It's the only way out of this mess. When the country is in a healthier financial situation, then debt can be paid down, but at the moment investment in infrastructure and job creation is the way forward.

debt is never irrelevant, it has to be repaid one way or another. we failed to grow our way out. both governments utterly failed to do this. Obama has done as much as he could have done. its proved his policy was correct but he didnt get support. gordon brown was right too. as for this lot the first thing they did was reduce the top tax rate from 50 to 45% giving the mindless argument, that they rich wouldnt pay the 50% anyway? we are more enslaved than ever.

Paradoxically the best chance for the economy to grow from the grass roots up, is the internet. the politicians and legal eagles have struggled to control this beast. hopefully the internet and the ris ein millions of small businesses will offset the corportion domination further. the trouble next is the governments will interfere more and more and bring in more regulations to penalise the little man. what do you think they invented vat for?

[Livia]

what a pointless post? it was a debt we were saddled with for 61 years.



Not pointless if you can understand that the clue was in the words. But I'll dumb it down for you... it was in reply to your statement:

"How did we get here ,

1) we couldnt afford to repay the americans for the 2nd world war..."

I pointed out that we had, in fact, paid it off in full in December 2006. What's not to understand?

[the truth]

Not pointless if you can understand that the clue was in the words. But I'll dumb it down for you... it was in reply to your statement:

"How did we get here ,

1) we couldnt afford to repay the americans for the 2nd world war..."

I pointed out that we had, in fact, paid it off in full in December 2006. What's not to understand?

Its yourself thats dumbing down. the fact is the nation has built up its current debts over decades. the fact the debt was finally paid after 61 years illustrates how difficult and how long it took to pay it off. sadly we paid it off with more borrowed money. This is all part of the financial quagmire we now find ourselves in today.

[Livia]

Its yourself thats dumbing down. the fact is the nation has built up its current debts over decades. the fact the debt was finally paid after 61 years illustrates how difficult and how long it took to pay it off. sadly we paid it off with more borrowed money. This is all part of the financial quagmire we now find ourselves in today.

I answered the post that you yourself made. Perhaps you should try to be clearer and a little more concise.

[the truth]

I answered the post that you yourself made. Perhaps you should try to be clearer and a little more concise.

I was thanks. perhaps you should be less sarcastic. the hate you make is the hate you take

[GypsyGoth]

It's only numbers.

[King Gizzard]

As long as we have peace and love we will be okay

peace and love

http://i.imgur.com/06FOC.jpg

[the truth]

It's only numbers.

lol

[Benjamin]

I don't really get what you are on about, all Livia did was state that we paid off our WWII debt, and you are also using Wiki as your reference source, which is very unreliable as it can be edited by anyone and everyone, which it clearly has been. It's a misleading, confusing, and out of date misrepresentation by the actual looks of it and really holds no grounds in a debt debate.

[the truth]

I don't really get what you are on about, all Livia did was state that we paid off our WWII debt, and you are also using Wiki as your reference source, which is very unreliable as it can be edited by anyone and everyone, which it clearly has been. It's a misleading, confusing, and out of date misrepresentation by the actual looks of it and really holds no grounds in a debt debate.

Totally wrong. this is external debt, read up what it means before talking such utter nonsense, no offence. PS quit sucking up to Livia its embarassing. The world war 2 debt is just part of the enormous debt we have built up over the past few decades. the fact we paid it off eventually after 61 years wasnt because we could afford it but because the yanks demanded it.

[Benjamin]

Totally wrong. this is external debt, read up what it means before talking such utter nonsense, no offence. PS quit sucking up to Livia its embarassing. The world war 2 debt is just part of the enormous debt we have built up over the past few decades. the fact we paid it off eventually after 61 years wasnt because we could afford it but because the yanks demanded it.

Firstly, remove that stick from your arse and stop talking to people as if they are *****.

Secondly, I am not sucking up to Livia, I just don't get why you got on your high horse with her to start off with, all she did was reply that our WWII debt had been paid off.

Thirdly, I'm not the one talking nonsense, you are. You are using a wikipedia page as your reference source, which in itself is a joke and utter nonsense as, like I have said, it is completely unreliable as it can be edited by anyone.

I'm not arguing that we are in debt, but at least use a reliable source if you are going to start a debate.

[Shaun]

dungeons!

[Livia]

I was thanks. perhaps you should be less sarcastic. the hate you make is the hate you take

I don't hate you. I wouldn't waste any kind of emotion on you.

[Jesus.]

I don't hate you. I wouldn't waste any kind of emotion on you.

Bazinga

http://semvida.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/bazinga.gif

[Kizzy]

To be fair the truth listed the contributory factors toward the debt, the fact that is was paid of 6yrs ago is irrelevant.
I wouldn't trust wiki as a reference though in all honesty.

[MTVN]

In any case I believe the amount that we repayed to Canada and the US was ~£5 billion, which is a comparitive drop in the ocean to this £10.4 trillion, and I don't believe we ever really struggled with the repayments, it was just that the loan was granted on favourable terms which allowed us to defer payments whenever we wanted

[the truth]

To be fair the truth listed the contributory factors toward the debt, the fact that is was paid of 6yrs ago is irrelevant.
I wouldn't trust wiki as a reference though in all honesty.

finally an intelligent unbiased response.
its wholly irrelevant when looking at debt accrued over 30 to 40 years.
sadly this lot cant actually have a debate about anything as their nepotism always gets in the way

[Kizzy]

Oh don't worry the conservatives are getting us out of debt, like mags they are selling arms to despots, starving the most vulnerable and promoting venture capitalism...
What could go wrong?

[Kazanne]

Oh don't worry the conservatives are getting us out of debt, like mags they are selling arms to despots, starving the most vulnerable and promoting venture capitalism...
What could go wrong?

What could go wrong?Mmm lets see,well we could vote labour back in and drown in debt once again,then some other party can take the flack and try and get us out of it again:hugesmile:

[Kizzy]

What could go wrong?Mmm lets see,well we could vote labour back in and drown in debt once again,then some other party can take the flack and try and get us out of it again:hugesmile:

Do you still think the worldwide recession only happened here?
Ok then...
I agree that Blairs war was costly and wrong.
The point I was trying to make was that as a government the tories seem to be making similar decisions now as they did then.
But who benefits?

[MTVN]

I find the Labour "it was a worldwide recession" excuse as annoying as the Conservative's "we're just trying to clear up Labour's mess". Yes it was global but that doesn't mean that Labour aren't guilty of mismanaging the economy, making some important mistakes and spending beyond our means. If you look at Canada they avoided the financial crises, and they're more likely than anyone to be affected by what was happening in America, but they were responsible with their budget and didn't allow things to get out of hand, it's why landing Mark Carney as the new Bank of England governor was actually a rare great move by Osborne

[Kizzy]

It's not an excuse though..
There was a worldwide recession.
What about the eurozone crisis, is that an excuse?
Have you seen the cuts faced by Ireland today in the Guardian?

[Niamh.]

It's not an excuse though..
There was a worldwide recession.
What about the eurozone crisis, is that an excuse?
Have you seen the cuts faced by Ireland today in the Guardian?

Don't talk to me.......

http://i49.tinypic.com/vd2usl.jpg

[MTVN]

It's not an excuse though..
There was a worldwide recession.
What about the eurozone crisis, is that an excuse?
Have you seen the cuts faced by Ireland today in the Guardian?

Yes I acknowledged that, my point is that there being a worldwide recession didn't mean it was inevitable that our economy would be in as bad a state as it was or that it was completely out of our own hands, Labour are not blame free

[Kizzy]

Yes I acknowledged that, my point is that there being a worldwide recession didn't mean it was inevitable that our economy would be in as bad a state as it was or that it was completely out of our own hands, Labour are not blame free

So no thanks to nice Mr Major for joining the European Union?
Niamh, would you like to say thankyou?

[Niamh.]

So no thanks to nice Mr Major for joining the European Union?
Niamh, would you like to say thankyou?

ha, tbf most of our problems are down to our s**ty and corrupt politicians imo but the Euro hasn't been great for us either, that's for sure!

[Kizzy]

ha, tbf most of our problems are down to our s**ty and corrupt politicians imo but the Euro hasn't been great for us either, that's for sure!

Oh you poor thing... Our politicians are great, salt of the earth types.
They even let small businessmen who contribute a small donation write their policies, Mr Wonga did one... It was fab! :joker:

[Niamh.]

Oh you poor thing... Our politicians are great, salt of the earth types.
They even let small businessmen who contribute a small donation write their policies, Mr Wonga did one... It was fab! :joker:

:laugh: Did you know our Taoiseach is the 4th highest paid Politician in the world? I mean seriously, here we are getting squeezed for all we have, having to take bail outs from Europe and then they pay themselves more than almost every other county in the worlds politicians, it's sickening tbh

[the truth]

europe finally sunk labur imho....blair give up billions in our rebate for nothing in return, what an idiot....then gordon brown would still possibly have won the last election IF he had stood up to the eurocrats, that was his last chance saloon and sadly he failed to grasp his opportunity.

[Marc]

I'll just see if I can help us out, let me look at my bank account..

[the truth]

I'll just see if I can help us out, let me look at my bank account..

its important people know the true debt. not just the £1 trillion owed by the government but the $10.4 trillion owed in total by us all publicly and privately. the us DOES include all private and public debt in their $16trillion debt figure, the UK does not, so we are in fact lying about the true figures. its the second highest debt in the world and per head is higher than almost every nation on earth. I just want you to be aware of the true situation and let others know. when the titanic sinks will you stay on board with the band or look for the nearest lifejcket?

[Jesus.]

its important people know the true debt. not just the £1 trillion owed by the government but the $10.4 trillion owed in total by us all publicly and privately. the us DOES include all private and public debt in their $16trillion debt figure, the UK does not, so we are in fact lying about the true figures. its the second highest debt in the world and per head is higher than almost every nation on earth. I just want you to be aware of the true situation and let others know. when the titanic sinks will you stay on board with the band or look for the nearest lifejcket?

It's still irrelevant. You can't take on debt reduction when the economy is so bad. Cuts have shrunk the economy, not increased revenues. When times are bad, you invest in jobs and infrastructure. Get people into work, and then go from there.

[the truth]

It's still irrelevant. You can't take on debt reduction when the economy is so bad. Cuts have shrunk the economy, not increased revenues. When times are bad, you invest in jobs and infrastructure. Get people into work, and then go from there.

Debt is never irrelevant, period, try telling those debtors it doesnt matter? Especially one as gargantuan as $10.4 trillion

Its simple to say invest in infrastructure and jobs in bad times, but how many people really do that and where would the money come from? I would add that I 100% agreed with Obama in taking that strategy, however americas gdp is way bigger than ours, they have diversified in way more areas than us...we idiotically put all our eggs in just one or 2 baskets, became over reliant on external nations for much of our energy too...a risky short term foolish strategy started by thatcher and continued by labour. in fact the gap between rich and poor under labour became bigger than since the days of oliver twist, what a disgraceful bunch of champagne socialists they turned out to be....they then tried to conceal their complete failure by buttering us up with gimmick issues like fox hunting and gay marriages, whilst thousands died in illegal wars over oil needed to save our economy, the biggest property crash ever, thousands froze in winter and tens of thousands died of abuses in hospitals and no military hospitals for injured war vets.

the US GDP in effect covers their debts...ours does not...Especially when we were in danger of losing our credit rating. Our low interest rates and the fact this government has at least taken some action to rectify a failing economy is the main reason weve kept the interest rates lower than almost all other european nations. Brown was right up to a point but he didnt act soon enough and he didnt sell his idea well enough.

I would add this government should have done way more. Its pathetic in fact how little they did. then again labour did nothing at all for small businesses in 13 years. Thats a disgraceful endictment of their ultimately failed government.

[Kizzy]

With the job market so saturated that it is driving down wages, the tax threshold being raised to £9'440 won't people be working for less pay and paying little or no tax?
How can there be growth from that?
Unless you see it as we are all productive little rats on a wheel running round for little reward till we drop dead... to be replaced by another rat........

[the truth]

With the job market so saturated that it is driving down wages, the tax threshold being raised to £9'440 won't people be working for less pay and paying little or no tax?
How can there be growth from that?
Unless you see it as we are all productive little rats on a wheel running round for little reward till we drop dead... to be replaced by another rat........

that doesnt make sense? less tax means more money in the pockets of these people on the lower end of the scale and more money to spend in the economy and create more growth?
this is called the mulitplier effect, this increased spending reults in higher revenues at busninesses and higher profits and more tax on higher profits.
sadly the governments strategy totally contradicts itself by raising vat on fuel to 20% that has to be slashed urgently on all goods imho

[Kizzy]

But if the hourly rate of pay has fallen therefore more people have less disposable income to spend on goods and services, so to me it's a lose lose situation..
Workers have less dosh
They spend less dosh
They contribute less dosh...
Who benefits from this senario?

[the truth]

But if the hourly rate of pay has fallen therefore more people have less disposable income to spend on goods and services, so to me it's a lose lose situation..
Workers have less dosh
They spend less dosh
They contribute less dosh...
Who benefits from this senario?

the hourly rate will rise if consumer spedning rises (as a result of tax breaks for the poorest) they spend more, shops take more revenue and profits and that goes towards increased wages. many businesses paya basic plus a commission...again a factor ignored by the militant left when preaching about minimum wages. the commission incentivizes workers to sell more and do a better job. thenthey get the rightful rewards. this in turn increases their chances of full time posts and promotions. Be honest , work harder and better and ultimately you will get your just rewards. And youll sleep better at night.

[Jesus.]

the hourly rate will rise if consumer spedning rises (as a result of tax breaks for the poorest) they spend more, shops take more revenue and profits and that goes towards increased wages. many businesses paya basic plus a commission...again a factor ignored by the militant left when preaching about minimum wages. the commission incentivizes workers to sell more and do a better job. thenthey get the rightful rewards. this in turn increases their chances of full time posts and promotions. Be honest , work harder and better and ultimately you will get your just rewards. And youll sleep better at night.

Poor people spend all the money they have. Commission is hardly ever a factor in lower paid jobs.

Just another point about that militant left, you keep on about. Without unions, kids were allowed to do manual jobs, employers could fire workers for no reason, pregnant women could be fired. Employers could have dangerous working practices etc.

When I worked for someone else, I was well paid through basic salary and commission + bonuses. I worked in sales. But the lower paid people in the office, like administrators never received the same bonuses that I did, and without them, I would have been unable to do my job as well.

Now I employ 2 people, and their whole salaries are based on commission. I pay them a basic, but they have to pay me back on a monthly basis before they start earning bonuses. Let's not pretend that commission is a universal thing that low wage workers get. They don't.

[the truth]

Poor people spend all the money they have. Commission is hardly ever a factor in lower paid jobs.

Just another point about that militant left, you keep on about. Without unions, kids were allowed to do manual jobs, employers could fire workers for no reason, pregnant women could be fired. Employers could have dangerous working practices etc.

When I worked for someone else, I was well paid through basic salary and commission + bonuses. I worked in sales. But the lower paid people in the office, like administrators never received the same bonuses that I did, and without them, I would have been unable to do my job as well.

Now I employ 2 people, and their whole salaries are based on commission. I pay them a basic, but they have to pay me back on a monthly basis before they start earning bonuses. Let's not pretend that commission is a universal thing that low wage workers get. They don't.

Unions like the welfare state and the nhs were created for all the right reasons by truly great men. Sadly theyve grown into something completely different. They became bloated ridddled with corruption, self interest and pojnt scoring. Virtually bankrupting us a few times over the years. The nursing and teaching union have become so much this way theyve failed to weed out the enormous incompetence and malpractice , this results in a minute fraction of bad teachers and bad nurses being weeded out , warned and sacked. in the end the masses suffer.


as for your point about commission.No one pretended it was universal? however there is commission, rewards, bonuses and promotions available to a vast majority of honest hard working decent people.

[Jesus.]

Unions like the welfare state and the nhs were created for all the right reasons by truly great men. Sadly theyve grown into something completely different. They became bloated ridddled with corruption, self interest and pojnt scoring. Virtually bankrupting us a few times over the years. The nursing and teaching union have become so much this way theyve failed to weed out the enormous incompetence and malpractice , this results in a minute fraction of bad teachers and bad nurses being weeded out , warned and sacked. in the end the masses suffer.


as for your point about commission.No one pretended it was universal? however there is commission, rewards, bonuses and promotions available to a vast majority of honest hard working decent people.

Would you say the same thing about the church? Unions protect workers, and that's what they do. They shouldn't be offering up pay cuts to rich corporations, just to make it so we don't have to hear about it on the news. It's a really sad and misguided opinion you have there.

No everyone has ambition, though, and commission isn't available to workers up and down the country. You won't find any manual workers earning commissions, rewards or bonuses. They will also have about 1 manager to a few hundred people. How often do you think the opportunity for promotion arises?

[Kizzy]

the hourly rate will rise if consumer spedning rises (as a result of tax breaks for the poorest) they spend more, shops take more revenue and profits and that goes towards increased wages. many businesses paya basic plus a commission...again a factor ignored by the militant left when preaching about minimum wages. the commission incentivizes workers to sell more and do a better job. thenthey get the rightful rewards. this in turn increases their chances of full time posts and promotions. Be honest , work harder and better and ultimately you will get your just rewards. And youll sleep better at night.

Oh great! the poorest get a tax break so they can spend more but ohno! the cost of energy has just risen pushing up food costs...
Commission, how many jobs are commission based?
Are you meaning performance related pay?

[the truth]

Would you say the same thing about the church? Unions protect workers, and that's what they do. They shouldn't be offering up pay cuts to rich corporations, just to make it so we don't have to hear about it on the news. It's a really sad and misguided opinion you have there.

No everyone has ambition, though, and commission isn't available to workers up and down the country. You won't find any manual workers earning commissions, rewards or bonuses. They will also have about 1 manager to a few hundred people. How often do you think the opportunity for promotion arises?

unions were introduced to protect workers but protectionism also has its downsides as Ive outlined. It also ensures the labour party rarely if ever keeps these unions honest enough.

as for the manual workers, some do get offered rewards and commissions and over time work. Also the chances of promotion was be tight, but if you keep adding to your cv, adding both experience and skills then you can always seek work elsewhere at a later stage. there are many courses being run all the time , whether it be forlift work, coach/minibus work and the courses do pay towards the training costs, in some cases they pay towards the whole costs. saldy councils have created so many unncessary rules that in fact contravene the law in some cases, that councils themselves hinder opportunities and decimate the local economies.

[Nedusa]

It makes you wonder about our so called "special relationship" with the US. It appears the Yanks would only come into the war if we paid them vast amount of money,Gold etc give them many of our foreign Military bases to use ad infiniteum and give them commercial control of large areas of the Middle East for oil prospecting after the war was over.

So basically we paying "protection money" to the School Bully to help us fight our battles. any romantic notions about the Americans wanting to come in and fight the Nazi's were just that....romantic notions. They basically made a financial killing out of the second World War and it set them up as a country and allowed them to become a superpower in a generation.

Special relationship pughhh....they couldn't give a xxxx about Britain never have and never will.

The relationship is only special inasmuch as they say "bend over" and we say "how far".....!!!!

[Jesus.]

It makes you wonder about our so called "special relationship" with the US. It appears the Yanks would only come into the war if we paid them vast amount of money,Gold etc give them many of our foreign Military bases to use ad infiniteum and give them commercial control of large areas of the Middle East for oil prospecting after the war was over.

So basically we paying "protection money" to the School Bully to help us fight our battles. any romantic notions about the Americans wanting to come in and fight the Nazi's were just that....romantic notions. They basically made a financial killing out of the second World War and it set them up as a country and allowed them to become a superpower in a generation.

Special relationship pughhh....they couldn't give a xxxx about Britain never have and never will.

The relationship is only special inasmuch as they say "bend over" and we say "how far".....!!!!

Hire your best friend to take on a 3 year project for you, and see if they do it free of charge.

[Nedusa]

Hire your best friend to take on a 3 year project for you, and see if they do it free of charge.

Over 50 Million mostly innocent people died during the second World War...to call it a "3 year Project" is a little disrespectful...!!!!

[Jesus.]

Over 50 Million mostly innocent people died during the second World War...to call it a "3 year Project" is a little disrespectful...!!!!

I was just pointing out that nobody does anything for free. The spoils of war always go to the victors, that's how England was able to amass great wealth and power over our history.

There is nothing disrespectful either. This isn't a WWII thread, after all.It's a thread about the debt - so take your faux outrage somewhere else.

[thesheriff443]

we are encouraged to get into debt by the goverment,
its called the rat race,debt is only number's.

[the truth]

I was just pointing out that nobody does anything for free. The spoils of war always go to the victors, that's how England was able to amass great wealth and power over our history.

There is nothing disrespectful either. This isn't a WWII thread, after all.It's a thread about the debt - so take your faux outrage somewhere else.

Youre preaching here about paying back debts? yet in another thread you say $10.4 trillion debt is irrelevant? totally hypocrisy. Also your frivolous manner is again disrespectful here.

[the truth]

It makes you wonder about our so called "special relationship" with the US. It appears the Yanks would only come into the war if we paid them vast amount of money,Gold etc give them many of our foreign Military bases to use ad infiniteum and give them commercial control of large areas of the Middle East for oil prospecting after the war was over.

So basically we paying "protection money" to the School Bully to help us fight our battles. any romantic notions about the Americans wanting to come in and fight the Nazi's were just that....romantic notions. They basically made a financial killing out of the second World War and it set them up as a country and allowed them to become a superpower in a generation.

Special relationship pughhh....they couldn't give a xxxx about Britain never have and never will.

The relationship is only special inasmuch as they say "bend over" and we say "how far".....!!!!
The americans did not like the english or their monarchy especialy,theyd have brutal battles with them for years and lets face it the english overlords during the early years of empire, were amongst the cruellest people to ever walk the earth. the americans didnt want to know about interventionism until pearl harbour. the relationship is based purely on the self and shared interests of the 2 nations. were just as hypocritical as them about this.

pearl harbour changed the world more than any other incident in the last century. why? because it smashed the american sense of idealism. they entered the real world so to speak and have intervened in over 60 nations since, usually at the point of a gun or a bomb. at the time we criticized them for not intervening, now theyre criticized for intervening too much in too many places.

as for the declaration of indepence , it was copied in many ways on the declaration of arbroath, written mainly by scottish and welsh exiles , freeing the americans from the tyranny of the english crown.

the true power of the empire never came from this ruthless idiot monarchs. it came from the ship builders, the law makers and the industry workers. the irish and scots were mostly the expert ship builders, the welsh and the northern pits provided the coal, the cannnonballs came from merthyr and treorchy, whilst the real key to it all was in fact the copper bottomed ships. this made our ships unsinkable. why? because the welsh created pure copper 4000 years ago at the great orme in north wales. swansea alone provied 66% of the worlds copper at one time. it is this genius which labelled the welsh as mercurial, mythical , magical back in the day and laid the grounds to worship the mythical dragon as their national emblem

[Nedusa]

I was just pointing out that nobody does anything for free. The spoils of war always go to the victors, that's how England was able to amass great wealth and power over our history.

There is nothing disrespectful either. This isn't a WWII thread, after all.It's a thread about the debt - so take your faux outrage somewhere else.

I agree nobody does anything for nothing but for the US to continue to preach about their "special relationship" with the UK and how they fought together side by side in WWII is a tad hypocritical bearing in mind Britain had to almost bankrupt itself in order for the US to get involved.

[Nedusa]

The americans did not like the english or their monarchy especialy,theyd have brutal battles with them for years and lets face it the english overlords during the early years of empire, were amongst the cruellest people to ever walk the earth. the americans didnt want to know about interventionism until pearl harbour. the relationship is based purely on the self and shared interests of the 2 nations. were just as hypocritical as them about this.

pearl harbour changed the world more than any other incident in the last century. why? because it smashed the american sense of idealism. they entered the real world so to speak and have intervened in over 60 nations since, usually at the point of a gun or a bomb. at the time we criticized them for not intervening, now theyre criticized for intervening too much in too many places.

as for the declaration of indepence , it was copied in many ways on the declaration of arbroath, written mainly by scottish and welsh exiles , freeing the americans from the tyranny of the english crown.

the true power of the empire never came from this ruthless idiot monarchs. it came from the ship builders, the law makers and the industry workers. the irish and scots were mostly the expert ship builders, the welsh and the northern pits provided the coal, the cannnonballs came from merthyr and treorchy, whilst the real key to it all was in fact the copper bottomed ships. this made our ships unsinkable. why? because the welsh created pure copper 4000 years ago at the great orme in north wales. swansea alone provied 66% of the worlds copper at one time. it is this genius which labelled the welsh as mercurial, mythical , magical back in the day and laid the grounds to worship the mythical dragon as their national emblem

Good Post, some interesting information thanks for your input....

[Jesus.]

Youre preaching here about paying back debts? yet in another thread you say $10.4 trillion debt is irrelevant? totally hypocrisy. Also your frivolous manner is again disrespectful here.

Nope - I'm not preaching about paying back debts. I'm saying no one does anything for free. I'm pretty sure that in this thread, I've said the debt is irrelevant, not another one. Although, it's an opinion I hold, so even if I had written it in another thread it still doesn't further your misguided premise.

I'm not being frivolous. What should I do? put a crying smilie :bawling: when WWII is mentioned? **** off, it's faux outrage, and irrelevant to the points being made.

I'll happily pay homage to the drafted troops, taken away from their families to go and fight in that war. Of course I would. But I'm not commenting in that thread, so I'm sorry, but I won't start singing Vera Lynn songs on demand. My Grandpa fought in that war, and luckily he came back otherwise I wouldn't be here typing this now, so **** off.

[Jesus.]

I agree nobody does anything for nothing but for the US to continue to preach about their "special relationship" with the UK and how they fought together side by side in WWII is a tad hypocritical bearing in mind Britain had to almost bankrupt itself in order for the US to get involved.

"Special relationship" is a term deemed mutually beneficial both countries, as we both use it when it suits.

No one who knows my postings on here, would say I was in anyway pro-America. The opposite is true, but you're looking to find a monster under your bed, when really it's just a creaking floor board.

[the truth]

Nope - I'm not preaching about paying back debts. I'm saying no one does anything for free. I'm pretty sure that in this thread, I've said the debt is irrelevant, not another one. Although, it's an opinion I hold, so even if I had written it in another thread it still doesn't further your misguided premise.

I'm not being frivolous. What should I do? put a crying smilie :bawling: when WWII is mentioned? **** off, it's faux outrage, and irrelevant to the points being made.

I'll happily pay homage to the drafted troops, taken away from their families to go and fight in that war. Of course I would. But I'm not commenting in that thread, so I'm sorry, but I won't start singing Vera Lynn songs on demand. My Grandpa fought in that war, and luckily he came back otherwise I wouldn't be here typing this now, so **** off.

any administrators on here to tell this blasphemous hater about verbally abusing fellow posters? No? I dont think so. you have totally exposed yourself for the 1000th and last time as far as Im concerned. in the vast history of human life, of all the war mongers, despots, war mongers and dictators from the butchers of rome, to the sickophant hitler and stalin, the one man in history you decide to hate and deride is jesus? Thats sums up your total moral bankruptcy. we shall never speak again.

[Jesus.]

any administrators on here to tell this blasphemous hater about verbally abusing fellow posters? No? I dont think so. you have totally exposed yourself for the 1000th and last time as far as Im concerned. in the vast history of human life, of all the war mongers, despots, war mongers and dictators from the butchers of rome, to the sickophant hitler and stalin, the one man in history you decide to hate and deride is jesus? Thats sums up your total moral bankruptcy. we shall never speak again.

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

You don't find many people who love Hitler and get their knickers in a twist at the drop of a hat.

I could trial it out for you if you'd like? I could easily adopt a hitler profile picture, sig and name change. In fact, any one reading this will be my witness. If the truth wants me to change my name to Hitler, I will trial it till the new year.

[the truth]

Is this abuser Jesus H Christ still verbally abusing posters here? swearing directly at people is now acceptable on here? why havent the moderators removed him and his sick abuse?