View Full Version : CofE gay marriage 'to be illegal'...
bbfan1991
11-12-2012, 03:17 PM
The Church of England and Church in Wales will be banned in law from offering same-sex marriages, the government announces.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20680924
Marcus.
11-12-2012, 03:19 PM
oh ok
Jack_
11-12-2012, 03:28 PM
Not good enough.
But then Rome wasn't built in a day. These delusional fools time will come eventually.
Redway
11-12-2012, 03:45 PM
Ridiculous but I really wish people would stop treating this issue as if it's extremely important and I don't know why people are acting surprised. Religious institutions in general are known for being full of hate and homophobia so I wouldn't be surprised if the CofE plans to remain like this.
InOne
11-12-2012, 03:54 PM
I don't get why Gay people would want to get married in a Church. If they're Christian they know very well the views of the Church on sexuality. It seems as if the ones who want it are probably the types who pick and choose the 'nice' bits of their Religion.
Redway
11-12-2012, 04:22 PM
Exactly. This "pick and mix" notion is what pisses me off the most. You can't just cherry pick what bits of a religion you want to follow and ignore the other doctrines just because you don't like them. Bottom line is if you're not going to follow all Christianity (for example) then you don't need to bother claiming to be a Christian at all. The Bible makes itself very clear on its views on homosexuality and if you want gay marriage then you're not a Christian.
arista
11-12-2012, 05:59 PM
All Today On the news
is Fecking Church People
Times Change - Deal with it
I think it's good news, by allowing the CofE not to conduct same sex marriage ceremonies it opens the way for it's more widespread legalisation, there's little point trying to force them to change their beliefs and impose it on them
arista
11-12-2012, 06:03 PM
I don't get why Gay people would want to get married in a Church. If they're Christian they know very well the views of the Church on sexuality. It seems as if the ones who want it are probably the types who pick and choose the 'nice' bits of their Religion.
Pick and Mix
There is Enough Labour , Libs and some Conservatives
to get this through.
What do the Curch Folk want a War?
Because they sound like they will Die for this
as they do want Gays in their crib
Ninastar
11-12-2012, 06:06 PM
I can understand why, and it makes me sad that people will now have unnecessary hate towards religious people.
arista
11-12-2012, 06:09 PM
I can understand why, and it makes me sad that people will now have unnecessary hate towards religious people.
No its Hate For Gays
Less care about Church Now
As there Ain't No God
Redway
11-12-2012, 06:33 PM
No its Hate For Gays
Less care about Church Now
As there Ain't No God
No offense, but why do you always say that? Whilst the idea of Christianity and all that is just nonsense, you can't prove or disprove that there may be some outer force out there.
arista
11-12-2012, 06:42 PM
No offense, but why do you always say that? Whilst the idea of Christianity and all that is just nonsense, you can't prove or disprove that there may be some outer force out there.
There are less going To Church
Yes I understand No One Can Prove God
Thats Why there is No God.
AnnieK
11-12-2012, 06:45 PM
There are less going To Church
Yes I understand No One Can Prove God
Thats Why there is No God.
You can't disprove God either though....
arista
11-12-2012, 06:51 PM
You can't disprove God either though....
I Can
As You Can Not Prove It
FACT
Redway
11-12-2012, 07:03 PM
I Can
As You Can Not Prove It
FACT
But you can't disprove it either. Fact. End. No but's, no if's. It's pointless picking sides when there's just as much evidence for either - i.e. nothing. The God of religion is obviously false but I don't see why people have to dismiss the idea that there could possibly be a greater force out there that science can't prove. I like to remain an agnostic.
lily.
11-12-2012, 07:10 PM
Exactly. This "pick and mix" notion is what pisses me off the most. You can't just cherry pick what bits of a religion you want to follow and ignore the other doctrines just because you don't like them. Bottom line is if you're not going to follow all Christianity (for example) then you don't need to bother claiming to be a Christian at all. The Bible makes itself very clear on its views on homosexuality and if you want gay marriage then you're not a Christian.
With all due respect, this is bollocks.
The whole point of religion is to take from it what you want.. It's not a load of rules set in stone. 100 people could read the bible and get 100 different messages from it. Everyone has their own interpretation of the stuff religion is made of. Some go to church regularly, some never do. Some read the bible regularly, some never do.
Who the hell are you to decide what criteria you must meet in order to be classed 'Christian'.
Not all Christians are raging homophobes.
arista
11-12-2012, 07:47 PM
With all due respect, this is bollocks.
The whole point of religion is to take from it what you want.. It's not a load of rules set in stone. 100 people could read the bible and get 100 different messages from it. Everyone has their own interpretation of the stuff religion is made of. Some go to church regularly, some never do. Some read the bible regularly, some never do.
Who the hell are you to decide what criteria you must meet in order to be classed 'Christian'.
Not all Christians are raging homophobes.
They Sound It on Radio and TV News.
lily.
11-12-2012, 07:48 PM
Empty vessels make the most noise arista.
Livia
11-12-2012, 07:52 PM
I really don't understand it. Why would people want to be married in a church knowing that it goes against that church's teachings? You want to be a member of a church, but you want to change what their beliefs are. Divorced people can't marry in many churches, I don't see anyone demanding an Act of Parliament for them. People can't marry in a synagogue if one of them isn't a Jew but they seem to manage without feeling marginalised and demanding a change in the law. I think the vast majority of people would support civil marriages for gay people, and if you're religious, have your church bless you. Many churches do this already, mostly for divorced people.
Redway
11-12-2012, 09:17 PM
With all due respect, this is bollocks.
The whole point of religion is to take from it what you want.. It's not a load of rules set in stone. 100 people could read the bible and get 100 different messages from it. Everyone has their own interpretation of the stuff religion is made of. Some go to church regularly, some never do. Some read the bible regularly, some never do.
Who the hell are you to decide what criteria you must meet in order to be classed 'Christian'.
Not all Christians are raging homophobes.
I'm not saying that all Christians are raging homophobes (as you put it) but it is very clear that homosexuality goes against the church's teachings. It's there for all to see in black and white.
Marsh.
11-12-2012, 09:22 PM
oh ok
This.
Marsh.
11-12-2012, 09:26 PM
Whilst the idea of Christianity and all that is just nonsense, you can't prove or disprove that there may be some outer force out there.
But you can't disprove it either. Fact. End. No but's, no if's. It's pointless picking sides when there's just as much evidence for either - i.e. nothing. The God of religion is obviously false but I don't see why people have to dismiss the idea that there could possibly be a greater force out there that science can't prove. I like to remain an agnostic.
Hypocrite much?
You're telling arista he has no right to dismiss the religious views of people because there's no evidence either way and then spout out...
"Christianity and all that is just nonsense..."
"The God of religion is obviously fake..."
Pointless telling arista not to be so blunt and then do it yourself.
Redway
11-12-2012, 09:37 PM
Hypocrite much?
You're telling arista he has no right to dismiss the religious views of people because there's no evidence either way and then spout out...
"Christianity and all that is just nonsense..."
"The God of religion is obviously fake..."
Pointless telling arista not to be so blunt and then do it yourself.
Did you actually read my post? I said that there may well be some outer force out there but that religion is obviously not there (imo). There's a big difference between the two and you can still believe in a God (outer force) without trying to belong to one religion. Note I used the terms 'agnostic' and 'outer force'.
Marsh.
11-12-2012, 09:40 PM
Did you actually read my post? I said that there may well be some outer force out there but that religion is obviously not there (imo). There's a big difference between the two and you can still believe in a God (outer force) without trying to belong to one religion. Note I used the terms 'agnostic' and 'outer force'.
It's hypocritical.
Arista can't dismiss God altogether but you can dismiss religion because you don't believe in it. People can do as they please.
Redway
11-12-2012, 09:43 PM
It's hypocritical.
Arista can't dismiss God altogether but you can dismiss religion because you don't believe in it. People can do as they please.
Of course he can do as he pleases. Just as I can take on his posts if I disagree with them.
Marsh.
11-12-2012, 09:44 PM
Of course he can do as he pleases. Just as I can take on his posts if I disagree with them.
Of course you can, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.
Redway
11-12-2012, 09:47 PM
Of course you can, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.
I don't see what you're on about. I just don't agree that there's no difference between a greater force and a religious force, which was my reply to arista, and if he disagrees with that then he's more than free to take on those points and criticise my ideas.
Still, if all that makes me hypocritical then so be it.
Marsh.
11-12-2012, 09:55 PM
Arista clearly doesn't believe in any God whatsoever.
You say you believe in A God but apparently not a "religious one".
Neither opinion is more valid than the other one because you have no more proof organised religions are wrong than arista has of there being no God at all.
Thus, it's hypocritical to tell him he can't dismiss God altogether.
Kizzy
11-12-2012, 10:25 PM
This whole farce is designed as a smokescreen to deflect from real issues..
Who the hell has decided that now is the time to raise this issue?...
Is is the LGBT community, or the tories in a desperate attempt to deflect interest away from the autumn statement?
joeysteele
11-12-2012, 10:27 PM
I have tried to look at this from imagining if I was gay and wanted to get married.
I have to say it surprises me that gay individuals would want to get married in Churches that have been responsible for fuelling and acting out discrimination against them anyway.
Way back a few decades, in the CofE for instance, the idea of Women priests would have been considered a total no go area.Now they are very much on the increase,so maybe it is going to take the CofE a lot longer still to come round to allowing 'marriages' between 2 gay individuals.
I was brought up RC and the time for that coming in that faith is way off, they haven't even got round to even the thought of Women Priests yet.
So the Churches seem to be so far away from the real world still and hearing their objections makes some of them sound really prejudiced.
The RC for instance, uses terms as to homosexuality, hate the sin but not the sinner, how patronising and pathetic a line is that to hold.
There have been so many Churches and faiths springing up that maybe the best way forward is create another one.
For sure in my opinion, if there is a God, also as to Christianity and Jesus too, for the division and discrimination the Churches still practice then I would doubt likely any God would even want to look inside any of those Churches let alone listen to them.
I believe people, be it man and woman, 2 women or 2 men should they want to marry and if they hold religious beliefs then they should be able to enjoy all the rights the man and women would have.
Politically though, I find this whole issue floated by the PM the other day now very confusing by his Govts stance.
Firstly, he wanted to make it that any gay couple who wanted to get married should have the right to do so, if they were of the Christian faith and many gay people claim to be,that they should be able to marry in Church if the Church was willing to let them.
That was a start at least.
Secondly though,now the Govt/politicians say that that right should still be granted to the gay community but the CofE is going to be banned in law from alowing marriages between gay couples.
Either I am going daft or there is a massive amount of hypocrisy creeping in from the Govt on that one.
I suspect the latter, create more confusion and then divide seems to be the normal route this Govt has chosen to go on as to many areas now.
What a mess in my view but I do hope the day comes when Churches really wake up and come into the real world and start really reaching out to people rather than seeming hell bent on pushing more and more people away.
Benjamin
11-12-2012, 11:31 PM
I think it's good news, by allowing the CofE not to conduct same sex marriage ceremonies it opens the way for it's more widespread legalisation, there's little point trying to force them to change their beliefs and impose it on them
I absolutely agree with you.
Exactly. This "pick and mix" notion is what pisses me off the most. You can't just cherry pick what bits of a religion you want to follow and ignore the other doctrines just because you don't like them. Bottom line is if you're not going to follow all Christianity (for example) then you don't need to bother claiming to be a Christian at all. The Bible makes itself very clear on its views on homosexuality and if you want gay marriage then you're not a Christian.
I do agree with you and InOne, but I think it must be very difficult for a gay Christian person to come to terms with that moral dilemma, because usually if you're of a religion, you've been raised with it so it's a huge part of your life, for all of your life. I think you would have to come to a compromise, in your head, between being okay with being homosexual and still trying to stick to your Christian values - so I think that's why it's such an important issue for some people. Why should they be forced out of something because of their sexuality? Yeah you can argue that it's a choice and no one's forcing them to be Christian, but, like I said, if you were raised that way, it would be very difficult to walk away from it - I imagine that religious teachings would shape the way you view the world, dictate how you act in some scenarios etc...
Anyway, not being of a religion myself, I don't really have much of an opinion on this either way, just playing devil's advocate really...
Irene Pearson
12-12-2012, 02:05 PM
Pick and Mix
There is Enough Labour , Libs and some Conservatives
to get this through.
What do the Curch Folk want a War?
Because they sound like they will Die for this
as they do want Gays in their crib
Yup and its called Christianity. Someone should research the meaning of the word and not stick like glue to man made severely outmoded criteria. Why are churches empty??? HA
Irene Pearson
12-12-2012, 02:17 PM
If Prince Charles were gay and wished to be married in church the law would be changed instantly. If princess Ann had wanted to join the upper echelons of the COE females would be in situ. Just what has their ridiculous stance on such matters got to do with the simple teachings of a carpenters son. Men in frocks did not figure and all the other dramatics and OTT symbolism - where were they in Christ's time. People now see through all of this razzle dazzle and will not be dictated to any longer . We will not give you our money and have minds and souls of our own
Irene Pearson
12-12-2012, 02:21 PM
May I also add that gay couples often choose to have children. Now what was one of the man made rules re Christian marriage and children. Discrimination by the church against the children of gay couples. What a Christian bunch. How can any intelligent person swallow this absolute clap trap.
Niamh.
12-12-2012, 02:23 PM
If Prince Charles were gay and wished to be married in church the law would be changed instantly. If princess Ann had wanted to join the upper echelons of the COE females would be in situ. Just what has their ridiculous stance on such matters got to do with the simple teachings of a carpenters son. Men in frocks did not figure and all the other dramatics and OTT symbolism - where were they in Christ's time. People now see through all of this razzle dazzle and will not be dictated to any longer . We will not give you our money and have minds and souls of our own
Haha, that's a pretty good point actually, isn't that where the whole religion evolved from cos Henry the Eighth wanted to be able to divorce or something like that?
Kizzy
12-12-2012, 02:26 PM
Yep, the church of England is a load of old tosh!
The king james bible is not worth the paper it's printed on...
Irene Pearson
12-12-2012, 02:33 PM
Haha, that's a pretty good point actually, isn't that where the whole religion evolved from cos Henry the Eighth wanted to be able to divorce or something like that?
Well exactly. What a joke. Some king cant get divorced because of those naughty catholic laws so massacres as many of them as poss, chops of a few of his missuses heads, makes up his own religion which the mindless still follow today. Christianity? I think not. They wouldn't have let Jesus in their churches in years gone by as he was actually Jewish with not exactly pure white skin. The Bible today bears little resemblance to its original form anyway because the early catholics butchered it.
Irene Pearson
12-12-2012, 02:34 PM
This whole farce is designed as a smokescreen to deflect from real issues..
Who the hell has decided that now is the time to raise this issue?...
Is is the LGBT community, or the tories in a desperate attempt to deflect interest away from the autumn statement?
yes probably
Jesus.
12-12-2012, 02:38 PM
Bigots gon' bigot
the truth
12-12-2012, 03:05 PM
All religious organizations have their own rules about who they are willing to marry...all of them. some turn you down if youve been married before, if youre not of suitable character in their eyes, if you dont attend regularly and if youre gay etc However some churches will decide to offer gay marriage. I dont see the fuss here to be honest. A gay couple will be able to find a church who carries out gay marriages, if their local doesnt offer this, then Im pretty sure that gay couple wouldnt want to get married there anyway. I would also add disabled people cant marry in many churches either, simply because theres no disabled access.pathetic but true. who do you blame? Jesus? No but you can blame the bishop (dioceses)vicars and minister responsible for this failure.
the truth
12-12-2012, 03:15 PM
Bigots gon' bigot
hypocrite
the truth
12-12-2012, 03:17 PM
Haha, that's a pretty good point actually, isn't that where the whole religion evolved from cos Henry the Eighth wanted to be able to divorce or something like that?
another war started by the english monarchy and not by religion
Irene Pearson
12-12-2012, 03:35 PM
All religious organizations have their own rules about who they are willing to marry...all of them. some turn you down if youve been married before, if youre not of suitable character in their eyes, if you dont attend regularly and if youre gay etc However some churches will decide to offer gay marriage. I dont see the fuss here to be honest. A gay couple will be able to find a church who carries out gay marriages, if their local doesnt offer this, then Im pretty sure that gay couple wouldnt want to get married there anyway. I would also add disabled people cant marry in many churches either, simply because theres no disabled access.pathetic but true. who do you blame? Jesus? No but you can blame the bishop (dioceses)vicars and minister responsible for this failure.
My point exactly. Christ's teachings were simple. Some Christian churches have turned such simplicity into amateur dramatics.
armand.kay
12-12-2012, 04:24 PM
Why do gay people want to be married in a church?? that's the last place I want to spend the best day of my life...
arista
12-12-2012, 04:59 PM
Why do gay people want to be married in a church?? that's the last place I want to spend the best day of my life...
No Idea Why.
Do not know any Gays
Its down to the way they were brought up , I assume
lily.
12-12-2012, 06:22 PM
They want the option, just like everyone else has it. They want to be treated the same, not better, not worse, than heterosexual people.
One day we'll look back on the things that happen today, and we'll be astonished at the narrow-mindedness and bigotry that exists.
When I read about the everyday things that happened in the deep south 50 years ago, I can't imagine living in a time where someone was treated differently because of the colour of their skin.
This is exactly the same. It's prejudice. Plain and simple. Eventually society will move past it, and that includes the churches. I hope it's sooner rather than later. I personally couldn't give a **** about anyone's sexual preference and I'm pretty sure nobody gives a **** about mine. It's completely irrelevant.
Jesus.
12-12-2012, 06:26 PM
hypocrite
How so?
Irene Pearson
12-12-2012, 07:51 PM
Bigots gon' bigot
How so?
Livia
12-12-2012, 08:23 PM
They want the option, just like everyone else has it. They want to be treated the same, not better, not worse, than heterosexual people.
One day we'll look back on the things that happen today, and we'll be astonished at the narrow-mindedness and bigotry that exists.
When I read about the everyday things that happened in the deep south 50 years ago, I can't imagine living in a time where someone was treated differently because of the colour of their skin.
This is exactly the same. It's prejudice. Plain and simple. Eventually society will move past it, and that includes the churches. I hope it's sooner rather than later. I personally couldn't give a **** about anyone's sexual preference and I'm pretty sure nobody gives a **** about mine. It's completely irrelevant.
I have said this before in another thread, but I don't think you were around at that time lily, so sorry if you were and I'm repeating myself...
When I married my husband, we could not marry in a synagogue because he was not a Jew. I didn't feel marginalised, victimised or any less Jewish because of it. I understand that it is a rule of my religion. It didn't occur to me that I should demand an Act of Parliament to force Judaism to change their rules. I do agree that if gay couples want to marry then they should absolutely have the right to marry in a civil ceremony the same as heterosexuals. But I don't agree that religions should be forced to marry them if it goes against their doctrine. If some churches choose to, then that is their own decision and not one that I feel should be made compulsory.
lily.
12-12-2012, 09:44 PM
Good point... and no I haven't read that story in another thread.
They probably shouldn't be made to do it by law, but my hope is that in the future they'll want to do it.
Could someone clarify if this is correct... Wasn't there a time when you couldn't marry in a church if you'd already been married then divorced? If so, has that changed with the times?
Perhaps attitudes towards homosexuality within Christianity is something that'll change over time as well.
Redway
12-12-2012, 09:49 PM
Good point... and no I haven't read that story in another thread.
They probably shouldn't be made to do it by law, but my hope is that in the future they'll want to do it.
Could someone clarify if this is correct... Wasn't there a time when you couldn't marry in a church if you'd already been married then divorced? If so, has that changed with the times?
Perhaps attitudes towards homosexuality within Christianity is something that'll change over time as well.
I don't know the "ins and outs" of that but I believe the Roman Catholic church is still against it.
Marsh.
12-12-2012, 09:50 PM
Yes, the RC's are against it.
That's the main reason the Church of England was created by Henry the 8th.
lily.
12-12-2012, 09:52 PM
Are the RCs still against it?
Redway
12-12-2012, 09:55 PM
Yeah.
CofE isn't exactly all that keen on it either but it tends to be more lenient and sympathise with people going through marital hardships.
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure CofE allows divorce in certain circumstances, whereas the R.C. church is completely against it. Which is quite ironic considering Jesus actually allowed divorce in the case of adultery in the Bible :S
Niamh.
12-12-2012, 10:58 PM
Are the RCs still against it?
Yes, you can't get married in a Catholic Church if you've been divorced. My mom is getting remarried next year and she has to have a civil ceremony
With all due respect, this is bollocks.
The whole point of religion is to take from it what you want.. It's not a load of rules set in stone. 100 people could read the bible and get 100 different messages from it. Everyone has their own interpretation of the stuff religion is made of. Some go to church regularly, some never do. Some read the bible regularly, some never do.
Who the hell are you to decide what criteria you must meet in order to be classed 'Christian'.
Not all Christians are raging homophobes.
What I was going to post, pretty much.
The Bible and the entire umbrella of Christian faith - like most religious and spiritual traditions - is a wide and complicated smorgasbord of alternating views held roughly together by a general theme and set of basic conventions.
It's how religions work. They build up, evolve - devolve even - and branch off. This idea that it is only the ultra dogmatic Bible bashers who qualify for their own faith is facetious and absurd. They themselves pick and choose bits of The Bible.
And what of The Bible? It's not all that was written. Plenty was edited out or never included to begin with. Lost gospels and gnostic traditions galore - available at the click of a mouse.
Most peoples spirituality is generally dependent on faith in a cherry picked set of beliefs the adherent has felt best represents their own world view. So what? It's how it works.
I don't believe any of it myself but I certainly know there is no rigidly defined set of rules as to how it should work.
Kizzy
12-12-2012, 11:49 PM
The whole point of following a religion was accepting that certain rules and provisos are set in stone? I don't follow a faith as they have these, why would anyone want to.
Changing and 'evolving' can't happen if you wish to follow a faith do so, If you wish to live your life another way fine start a new faith, it worked for henry...,
Kind of simplistic to say that Henry VIII just set up the CofE so he could get a divorce, there was the small matter of the Reformation that had been sweeping across Europe, Christians all over the West had been breaking with the Catholic Church
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 12:03 AM
Kind of simplistic to say that Henry VIII just set up the CofE so he could get a divorce, there was the small matter of the Reformation that had been sweeping across Europe, Christians all over the West had been breaking with the Catholic Church
So the alternative was to rewrite the bible?
Marsh.
13-12-2012, 12:15 AM
Who rewrote the Bible?
JK Rowling. Haven't you read it?
The whole point of following a religion was accepting that certain rules and provisos are set in stone? I don't follow a faith as they have these, why would anyone want to.
I literally can't understand what you are saying here. Is English your second language?
Changing and 'evolving' can't happen
Yes they can.
start a new faith
Like this.
There are dozens of well known variations and break offs of the Christian faith and thousands of other lesser known, whacked out variations that put more of less emphasis on various parts of the belief structure. Some schools of thought accept doctrines that others don't.
There is no universally correct path that has 'THIS IS THE ONE' emblazoned in a neon arrow that points in the doors of the church.
Hence I don't know why people at the top of this thread were mentioning that you can't pick and match your faith. Yes you can. It's how virtually every one was formed. There is no right, correct way to interpret the Bible. Only those who believe their way is the right, correct way.
It's impossible to follow down to the bone without running into a gas shower of contradictions.
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 12:28 AM
No English is not my second language.
Are you having trouble understanding me, would you like me to dumb down my point?....
If a church won't accept to carry out your marriage find one who will.
Would you like me to dumb down my point?....
Heaven forbid. No ... just express it clearer. Sometimes it's like trying to do an eye test through a whiskey bottle.
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 12:33 AM
Heaven forbid. No ... just express it clearer. Sometimes it's like trying to do an eye test through a whiskey bottle.
Put the bottle down stu it may help.
I would if my coke dealer picked up the phone.
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 01:48 AM
Who rewrote the Bible?
King James :joker:
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 12:14 PM
Good point... and no I haven't read that story in another thread.
They probably shouldn't be made to do it by law, but my hope is that in the future they'll want to do it.
Could someone clarify if this is correct... Wasn't there a time when you couldn't marry in a church if you'd already been married then divorced? If so, has that changed with the times?
Perhaps attitudes towards homosexuality within Christianity is something that'll change over time as well.
Yes and in the meantime these" Christian" folk get away with blatant discrimination.WHY/
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 12:19 PM
I don't know the "ins and outs" of that but I believe the Roman Catholic church is still against it.
This still applies in many C of E churches and is not allowed in catholic establishments as they do not allow or acknowledge divorce.You would be a bigamist in their eyes. Couldn't make it up could you?
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 12:20 PM
Because the bible was written before the discrimination laws?...
If you don't like it don't follow it simples...
Everyone would be much happier if they didn't as far as I can see.
thesheriff443
13-12-2012, 12:30 PM
kizzy why are all your post's double?
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 12:37 PM
kizzy why are all your post's double?
I'm posting from a 3ds, it's quite good but sometimes duplicates the post.
I delete them when I notice them.
Livia
13-12-2012, 12:38 PM
Yes and in the meantime these" Christian" folk get away with blatant discrimination.WHY/
Because they are the rules of their religion. Some religions will not marry people outside that particular faith, some religions will not marry divorced people... Do you suggest that divorced heterosexuals are being disciminated against?
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:11 PM
Because they are the rules of their religion. Some religions will not marry people outside that particular faith, some religions will not marry divorced people... Do you suggest that divorced heterosexuals are being disciminated against?
Absolutely
Livia
13-12-2012, 01:15 PM
You've got to pick your battles Irene and stop getting outraged on other people's behalf. It's a massive waste of energy.
I notice with some amusement that it is always the atheists, agnostics and other assorted "non-believers" who seem to be the ones with all the ideas about changing religions.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:16 PM
Because the bible was written before the discrimination laws?...
If you don't like it don't follow it simples...
Everyone would be much happier if they didn't as far as I can see.
Yes that is exactly why church attendance has diminished to an all time low.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:19 PM
You've got to pick your battles Irene and stop getting outraged on other people's behalf. It's a massive waste of energy.
I notice with some amusement that it is always the atheists, agnostics and other assorted "non-believers" who seem to be the ones with all the ideas about changing religions.
Why do you assume that I am any of the above and am outraged fighting "other people's " battles?
Livia
13-12-2012, 01:19 PM
Yes that is exactly why church attendance has diminished to an all time low.
My synagogue's never been busier.
Livia
13-12-2012, 01:21 PM
Why do you assume that I am any of the above and am outraged fighting "other people's " battles?
I am not assuming, the clue was in the words you wrote. The church should change, everyone should be allowed to marry or do whatever they want, divorced people are being discriminated against... Isn't that what you're saying then?
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:21 PM
My synagogue's never been busier.
Sorry I was referring to the Christian faith .
Livia
13-12-2012, 01:22 PM
Sorry I was referring to the Christian faith .
Oh I see. So Judaism is okay then? Not marrying gay people... it's just the Christians you're mad at?
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:25 PM
Oh I see. So Judaism is okay then? Not marrying gay people... it's just the Christians you're mad at?
I know very little about the Jewish faith I am from a christian background. I am not qualified to comment.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:28 PM
I am not assuming, the clue was in the words you wrote. The church should change, everyone should be allowed to marry or do whatever they want, divorced people are being discriminated against... Isn't that what you're saying then?
From that you assume I am agnostic etc. etc.? So you believe that everyone but the church should be heartily "discouraged" from discriminatory actions?
Livia
13-12-2012, 01:29 PM
I know very little about the Jewish faith I am from a christian background. I am not qualified to comment.
Right. So you think that the Christians should be a special case and that legislation should make them marry gay people. But Judaism, Islam and all the other religions should be treated differently? Surely if one religion is forced to do something the others are not, then you're discriminating against Christians?
Livia
13-12-2012, 01:30 PM
From that you assume I am agnostic etc. etc.? So you believe that everyone but the church should be heartily "discouraged" from discriminatory actions?
No, I think you should know a little more about what it is you're discussing before you engage in a debate. It's you yourself who are championing discrimination against Christians.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:33 PM
Right. So you think that the Christians should be a special case and that legislation should make them marry gay people. But Judaism, Islam and all the other religions should be treated differently? Surely if one religion is forced to do something the others are not, then you're discriminating against Christians?
I do not believe that any religious sect should be allowed to discriminate. As my studies have never encompassed any of the religions you mention I am commenting on the" faith" that I was subjected to.
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 01:34 PM
You are entitled to have an opinion and express yourself however you wish irene, I thought it was the LGBT christians that wanted the changes made, so they could marry in church?
Why that suggests atheists and agnostics are exempt from comment I don't know...
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:36 PM
You are entitled to have an opinion and express yourself however you wish irene, I thought it was the LGBT christians that wanted the changes made, so they could marry in church?
Why that suggests atheists and agnostics are exempt from comment I don't know...
Sorry Kizzmas you have lost me. I seem to being accused of some weird stuff here.
Livia
13-12-2012, 01:38 PM
I do not believe that any religious sect should be allowed to discriminate. As my studies have never encompassed any of the religions you mention I am commenting on the" faith" that I was subjected to.
No one is suggesting you aren't entitled to your say, Irene. It's just rather amusing that by demanding Christians change their rules and not that all religions do, you make your argument look a little weak. I have never studied Islam but I think if one religion is made to allow gays to marry, then I think all religions should, including Islam. Or your are discriminating. Isn't that kind of clear to you?
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 01:47 PM
No one is suggesting you aren't entitled to your say, Irene. It's just rather amusing that by demanding Christians change their rules and not that all religions do, you make your argument look a little weak. I have never studied Islam but I think if one religion is made to allow gays to marry, then I think all religions should, including Islam. Or your are discriminating. Isn't that kind of clear to you?
I'm sorry but your argument does not seem rational. Are you saying that all the worlds religions should have identical dogmas? I really do not understand what you mean. The disparities between different religions are many fold surely? For instance when I have attended our local synagogue the ladies were all seated separately to the gentlemen. This is not so in Christian churches. C of E accepts divorce, Catholics do not. Please try to discuss this without being aggressive because I am genuinely interested and found your sarcasm quite off putting.
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 01:53 PM
Sorry Kizzmas you have lost me. I seem to being accused of some weird stuff here.
I said the same last night on this issue, nobody can or should change an existing religion.
Politics has no place meddling, however everyone is entitled to an opinion, I am not a christian but that should not mean that my view on this means any less.
As a democracy everyone is equal regardless of what their beliefs are.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:00 PM
I said the same last night on this issue, nobody can or should change an existing religion.
Politics has no place meddling, however everyone is entitled to an opinion, I am not a christian but that should not mean that my view on this means any less.
As a democracy everyone is equal regardless of what their beliefs are.
The many offshoots of Christianity can and have changed down the centuries.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:05 PM
Will you tell me why my last post to Livia has been deleted?
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 02:09 PM
The many offshoots of Christianity can and have changed down the centuries.
Yes they have, and some are more tolerant than others, fair play to them.
However, why should westminster stamp on those who are not, it's not a faith then is it?
it becomes an enforced regime.
Jesus.
13-12-2012, 02:17 PM
You've got to pick your battles Irene and stop getting outraged on other people's behalf. It's a massive waste of energy.
I notice with some amusement that it is always the atheists, agnostics and other assorted "non-believers" who seem to be the ones with all the ideas about changing religions.
:suspect:
Well I suppose the problem is that the CofE are still technically the official Church in this country and we don't have complete separation of church and state, that makes the gay marriage question even more difficult because they are seen as conducting marriages on behalf of the state, and if they're against marrying same sex couples than it's problematic to legalise it
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:18 PM
Yes they have, and some are more tolerant than others, fair play to them.
However, why should westminster stamp on those who are not, it's not a faith then is it?
it becomes an enforced regime.
No I believe they become less discriminatory. A majority of congregants are for this change just as they are for women priests.
InOne
13-12-2012, 02:19 PM
You've got to pick your battles Irene and stop getting outraged on other people's behalf. It's a massive waste of energy.
I notice with some amusement that it is always the atheists, agnostics and other assorted "non-believers" who seem to be the ones with all the ideas about changing religions.
The funny thing is though. It's often Atheists that have more knowledge on Religion than the so called Religious people (Not on about you). I don't like to engage in Religious debates anymore but often in ends up in Theists deflecting, that's why I don't bother.
Niamh.
13-12-2012, 02:20 PM
Well I suppose the problem is that the CofE are still technically the official Church in this country and we don't have complete separation of church and state, that makes the gay marriage question even more difficult because they are seen as conducting marriages on behalf of the state, and if they're against marrying same sex couples than it's problematic to legalise it
That's a good point too Matt
Marsh.
13-12-2012, 02:21 PM
That's the nail on the head Irene, Christianity THEMSELVES have changed down the centuries. They haven't been forced to change.
If they are forced to include something from an outside party against their will then it ceases being a religion and set of beliefs that they choose to be a part of/believe in.
Effectively, non-Christians forcing Christians to accept and believe something they don't. Not really a religion then.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:23 PM
No one is suggesting you aren't entitled to your say, Irene. It's just rather amusing that by demanding Christians change their rules and not that all religions do, you make your argument look a little weak. I have never studied Islam but I think if one religion is made to allow gays to marry, then I think all religions should, including Islam. Or your are discriminating. Isn't that kind of clear to you?
Will you please tell me why my response to this post was deleted?:suspect:
InOne
13-12-2012, 02:24 PM
Think you're a bit paranoid Irene... You're not that important that mods would go around deleting your posts.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:27 PM
That's the nail on the head Irene, Christianity THEMSELVES have changed down the centuries. They haven't been forced to change.
If they are forced to include something from an outside party against their will then it ceases being a religion and set of beliefs that they choose to be a part of/believe in.
Effectively, non-Christians forcing Christians to accept and believe something they don't. Not really a religion then.
This came from within the church also Just as the inclusion of women in the priesthood. Wonder what the Pankhursts would make of that. These decisions have been made by males.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:29 PM
Think you're a bit paranoid Irene... You're not that important that mods would go around deleting your posts.
Well Scrooge it was there and then it wasn't. What do you suggest.I'm new to this site.
InOne
13-12-2012, 02:30 PM
Well Scrooge it was there and then it wasn't. What do you suggest.I'm new to this site.
You already got told before though nothing was deleted.
Marsh.
13-12-2012, 02:30 PM
This came from within the church also Just as the inclusion of women in the priesthood. Wonder what the Pankhursts would make of that. These decisions have been made by males.
But you were talking about Christianity as a whole. That includes more than the CofE.
Marsh.
13-12-2012, 02:32 PM
Will you please tell me why my response to this post was deleted?:suspect:
:suspect: It wasn't.....
I'm sorry but your argument does not seem rational. Are you saying that all the worlds religions should have identical dogmas? I really do not understand what you mean. The disparities between different religions are many fold surely? For instance when I have attended our local synagogue the ladies were all seated separately to the gentlemen. This is not so in Christian churches. C of E accepts divorce, Catholics do not. Please try to discuss this without being aggressive because I am genuinely interested and found your sarcasm quite off putting.
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 02:34 PM
Well I suppose the problem is that the CofE are still technically the official Church in this country and we don't have complete separation of church and state, that makes the gay marriage question even more difficult because they are seen as conducting marriages on behalf of the state, and if they're against marrying same sex couples than it's problematic to legalise it
Don't start quoting sections of the Act of Settlement will you? :)
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 02:38 PM
You already got told before though nothing was deleted.
She's right joe something was deleted from this thread.
InOne
13-12-2012, 02:39 PM
:suspect: It wasn't.....
The plot thickens!
Niamh.
13-12-2012, 02:41 PM
She's right joe something was deleted from this thread.
It wasn't Irenes post though
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:44 PM
That's a good point too Matt
. Civil partnership is allowed by the state is this not the next logical progression.Christian churches were behind children being demonised as bastards when born out of wedlock. Why are gay couples children being discriminated against when the church still maintain that it is a sin to be illegitimate. The world evolves peoples conscious awareness expands . There are a lot of gays to whom religion is important , who contribute to their local communities through the church. This all so medieval.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:46 PM
It wasn't Irenes post though
Sorry I am here, I did post it folks, I did see it and it was deleted. You little monkeys:xyxwave:
Niamh.
13-12-2012, 02:46 PM
. Civil partnership is allowed by the state is this not the next logical progression.Christian churches were behind children being demonised as bastards when born out of wedlock. Why are gay couples children being discriminated against when the church still maintain that it is a sin to be illegitimate. The world evolves peoples conscious awareness expands . There are a lot of gays to whom religion is important , who contribute to their local communities through the church. This all so medieval.
I do agree with you but thankfully today, what the church thinks about those kind of things doesn't equal what all of society thinks anymore
Niamh.
13-12-2012, 02:48 PM
Sorry I am here, I did post it folks, I did see it and it was deleted. You little monkeys:xyxwave:
We're just trying to mess with your head Irene http://i.imgur.com/6AOE1.gif
JK
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 02:48 PM
It wasn't Irenes post though
Did she not quote the deleted one?
Ah, I don't know then :conf:
Marsh.
13-12-2012, 02:48 PM
Sorry I am here, I did post it folks, I did see it and it was deleted. You little monkeys:xyxwave:
No, it wasn't. I quoted your response to Livia further up the page.
Niamh.
13-12-2012, 02:49 PM
Did she not quote the deleted one?
Ah, I don't know then :conf:
No lol
InOne
13-12-2012, 02:50 PM
We're just trying to mess with your head Irene http://i.imgur.com/6AOE1.gif
JK
Think it's more her trying to mess with ours :suspect:
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:52 PM
Honestly I swear that it was deleted and has now re-appeared. Back me up Kizzmas you were in on the discussion. I know i'm getting on a bit but that was not a senior moment.Or I hope it wasn't!
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:53 PM
I do agree with you but thankfully today, what the church thinks about those kind of things doesn't equal what all of society thinks anymore
It's hard cheese to the church members who are discriminated against though.
Marsh.
13-12-2012, 02:55 PM
Irene, are you up to date on your HRT?
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:55 PM
Blimey one can spend ones life on here . My poor animals need feeding. Thanks for the chat folks. Ta ta for now.
Niamh.
13-12-2012, 02:56 PM
It's hard cheese to the church members who are discriminated against though.
I suppose so, I guess I'm just of the thinking that I wouldn't want to be apart of such an exclusive type of organisation but then I'm not a religious person either so It's hard for me to try and step into their shoes
thesheriff443
13-12-2012, 02:56 PM
It's hard cheese to the church members who are discriminated against though.
is it not the church member's that go around with banner,s at gay people's funeral's
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:57 PM
Irene, are you up to date on your HRT?
Oh you wag. I'm not actually Doc took me off it. Too old now he reckoned. Could be that :conf:
Marsh.
13-12-2012, 02:58 PM
Oh you wag. I'm not actually Doc took me off it. Too old now he reckoned. Could be that :conf:
:laugh: That's what it is. You're on a comedown.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 02:59 PM
Whoops. Sorry x
Ah thanks Marczipan You rascal! My new friends on here just think I'm barking.Not far wrong actually:elephant:
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 03:00 PM
Honestly I swear that it was deleted and has now re-appeared. Back me up Kizzmas you were in on the discussion. I know i'm getting on a bit but that was not a senior moment.Or I hope it wasn't!
Well marc said sorry maybe he did it! the cheeky monkey :)
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 03:18 PM
Well marc said sorry maybe he did it! the cheeky monkey :)
Yes think he did! Loving your name by the way.Also in reply to your previous post I would think that the bigots who do this at gay funerals are among the minority of congregants who are in opposition to this change.
Nedusa
13-12-2012, 04:13 PM
So pardon my ignorance but I thought the Govt were trying to persuade Churches to allow same sex marriages, but now they have passed a law banning them ???
I'm confused, what is the real agenda at play here, is it to stop the main Churches bringing in a version of marriage that differs with the normal marriage service.
Anyone have a better handle on this issue as I'm sure there are other issues involved here...
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 04:37 PM
:laugh: That's what it is. You're on a comedown.
I was really enjoying a lovely heated debate with an interesting young lady named Livia when my post vanished along with Livia! It gets very lively on here doesn't it.
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 04:40 PM
So pardon my ignorance but I thought the Govt were trying to persuade Churches to allow same sex marriages, but now they have passed a law banning them ???
I'm confused, what is the real agenda at play here, is it to stop the main Churches bringing in a version of marriage that differs with the normal marriage service.
Anyone have a better handle on this issue as I'm sure there are other issues involved here...
It seems to have been a very complicated solution to a very simple question doesn't it.I think the law applies to the C of E and the church of Wales
Irene Pearson
13-12-2012, 04:43 PM
So pardon my ignorance but I thought the Govt were trying to persuade Churches to allow same sex marriages, but now they have passed a law banning them ???
I'm confused, what is the real agenda at play here, is it to stop the main Churches bringing in a version of marriage that differs with the normal marriage service.
Anyone have a better handle on this issue as I'm sure there are other issues involved here...
As it is illegal to perform gay marriage the church cannot be sued for discrimination
Livia
13-12-2012, 05:37 PM
I was really enjoying a lovely heated debate with an interesting young lady named Livia when my post vanished along with Livia! It gets very lively on here doesn't it.
I didn't vanish Irene, I was working. You think Christians should be forced to marry everyone while other religions wouldn't have to. I don't agree because it is in fact discriminating against one religion. There isn't anything else to debate.
If Prince Charles were gay and wished to be married in church the law would be changed instantly. If princess Ann had wanted to join the upper echelons of the COE females would be in situ. Just what has their ridiculous stance on such matters got to do with the simple teachings of a carpenters son. Men in frocks did not figure and all the other dramatics and OTT symbolism - where were they in Christ's time. People now see through all of this razzle dazzle and will not be dictated to any longer . We will not give you our money and have minds and souls of our own
If Prince Charles were gay, he would have a wife, be childless and probably be playing hide the sausage with men on the sly - there are so many examples of royal family members in history who have very clearly been homosexual but no one would have dared say it out loud because it would have been treason.
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 07:34 PM
Yes think he did! Loving your name by the way.Also in reply to your previous post I would think that the bigots who do this at gay funerals are among the minority of congregants who are in opposition to this change.
Thanks :)
It wasn't me who raised the issue of bigots at funerals, does this actually happen, and do the people that demonstrate their outrage at funerals consider themselves christians?...wow.
Now theres a debate in itself :(
Thanks :)
It wasn't me who raised the issue of bigots at funerals, does this actually happen, and do the people that demonstrate their outrage at funerals consider themselves christians?...wow.
Now theres a debate in itself :(
Yeah, look up the Westboro Baptist Church, it's pretty despicable... there were bigots at Heath Ledger's funeral procession because he played a gay character in Brokeback Mountain - the man had a little girl, he wasn't even homosexual, he just played a character in a film one time. It's disturbing.
Marcus.
13-12-2012, 07:36 PM
Thanks :)
It wasn't me who raised the issue of bigots at funerals, does this actually happen, and do the people that demonstrate their outrage at funerals consider themselves christians?...wow.
Now theres a debate in itself :(
hear hear
InOne
13-12-2012, 08:31 PM
Yeah, look up the Westboro Baptist Church, it's pretty despicable... there were bigots at Heath Ledger's funeral procession because he played a gay character in Brokeback Mountain - the man had a little girl, he wasn't even homosexual, he just played a character in a film one time. It's disturbing.
Westboro Baptist Chuch is a very very extreme example LOL Think it's almost disbanded now as well. Loads of the family were leaving at one point.
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 10:22 PM
Just had a nosy....they are crazy! haha
This is the kind of zealots that would bubble to the surface like farts in a bath if you tried to force any legislation.
InOne
13-12-2012, 10:26 PM
Erm, nice...
Kizzy
13-12-2012, 10:58 PM
Erm, nice...
Not nice at all joe :nono:
Irene Pearson
17-12-2012, 03:55 PM
I didn't vanish Irene, I was working. You think Christians should be forced to marry everyone while other religions wouldn't have to. I don't agree because it is in fact discriminating against one religion. There isn't anything else to debate.
And I do not agree at all. I find your argument vacuous and extrinsic, circumventing the real debate for the sake of controversy. You seem to have an "I'm alright Jack" attitude- let's not challenge the discriminatory status quo especially if it involves "Religion".Well good for you. But pleases don't attack those who care about injustice and are not walking in your comfortable shoes.
Irene Pearson
19-12-2012, 05:26 PM
Yes they have, and some are more tolerant than others, fair play to them.
However, why should westminster stamp on those who are not, it's not a faith then is it?
it becomes an enforced regime.
This has a Westminster stamp on ( as far as I understand) to prevent C of E and church of Wales being sued. Other Christian churches can opt in if they wish.
Livia
19-12-2012, 05:30 PM
And I do not agree at all. I find your argument vacuous and extrinsic, circumventing the real debate for the sake of controversy. You seem to have an "I'm alright Jack" attitude- let's not challenge the discriminatory status quo especially if it involves "Religion".Well good for you. But pleases don't attack those who care about injustice and are not walking in your comfortable shoes.
I think you need to go and read what I said again, I think you're getting a little confused about what discrimination means.
This is a debate. If you feel I have "attacked" anyone, take it up with the moderators.
Irene Pearson
19-12-2012, 05:36 PM
Livia I think you should change" Doesn't suffer fools" to It's my way or the highway" I am more than capable of reading and understanding your posts. Don't think you understand what you are arguing about or for what reason. And I still disagree with you.
InOne
19-12-2012, 05:40 PM
Livia I think you should change" Doesn't suffer fools" to It's my way or the highway" I am more than capable of reading and understanding your posts. Don't think you understand what you are arguing about or for what reason. And I still disagree with you.
Someone grumpy cos they're ill?
Livia
19-12-2012, 05:42 PM
Livia I think you should change" Doesn't suffer fools" to It's my way or the highway" I am more than capable of reading and understanding your posts. Don't think you understand what you are arguing about or for what reason. And I still disagree with you.
Irene, I think you should take note of my "doesn't suffer fools".
I have made my point in very plain English. You are not obliged to agree with it.
Irene Pearson
19-12-2012, 05:44 PM
Irene, I think you should take note of my "doesn't suffer fools".
I have made my point in very plain English. You are not obliged to agree with it.
And I don't at all.
Livia
19-12-2012, 05:47 PM
And I don't at all.
Yes, so you said.
Irene Pearson
19-12-2012, 07:12 PM
Yes, so you said.
Just wondering . If I continue this how long you will continue having to have the last word. It's very amusing.
Livia
19-12-2012, 07:22 PM
Just wondering . If I continue this how long you will continue having to have the last word. It's very amusing.
What's really amusing is someone as obviously preoccupied with me and my opinion as you are, accusing me of something you're doing yourself.
I tell you what, I'll make this my last post on this thread, I'm tired of trip-trapping over your bridge anyway. Then you can say something you think makes you sound all witty and cutting but really makes you look a little obsessed, and you can have the last word. How's that?
Irene Pearson
19-12-2012, 07:45 PM
What's really amusing is someone as obviously preoccupied with me and my opinion as you are, accusing me of something you're doing yourself.
I tell you what, I'll make this my last post on this thread, I'm tired of trip-trapping over your bridge anyway. Then you can say something you think makes you sound all witty and cutting but really makes you look a little obsessed, and you can have the last word. How's that?
Right back at you and I am so sorry that I disagreed with you. Obviously a ce=razy move on my part.
Nedusa
19-12-2012, 08:21 PM
Sorry .... What was this thread about , sounds like the Livia and Irene show at the moment...!!!!
the truth
20-12-2012, 09:35 AM
why are the government making this illegal? why not allow the churches the right to decide? may I also point out, ENGLISH CHURCHES ARE ESTABLISHED, WELSH CHURCHES ARE NOT. THIS IS A FACT THE TORY MINISTER APPEARS BLISSFULLY AND IGNORANTLY UNAWARE OF. If she did realise it she could see the welsh churches can do whatever they like, so we could end up with a 2 tier system of gay couples happily jaunting over the severn bridge to get a Church marriage.
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