If you don't believe in God.....

[Ammi]

....and believe in heaven/hell etc...do you still believe we have a soul/spirit/essence/energy..however you think of it..and what do you think happens to it when we die...

...I don't believe in God as the bible tells us to..or at least as I was brought up to believe....but I do believe that what makes us, who we are..our personalities, emotions etc has to go somewhere when we die..I don't think it just disappears with our bodies either....whether it's a reincarnation thing and it gets 'passed on', I haven't really considered too deeply...because I don't know whether I believe in reincarnation.....

..what do you think happens to our 'spirit' when we die...?....

(this isn't so much a religion thing, so I wasn't sure which section to put it in)

8gT1nsDPZ7g

[Jesus.]

May I?

There is no reason to believe in any kind of soul/spirit/presence, so finding somewhere for the magical spirit to hide away seems like an unnecessary problem requiring an unnecessary solution .

We're all a product of our brains and genes. That's where our emotions/personalities come from, and when the brain shuts down, the corpses we leave behind rot away.

[Ammi]

..yeah but the corpses are only the vessels JHC..I believe it's the spirit/essence that makes us what/who we are...that's the sparkle behind the eye type thing...the bodies would be dormant anyway, without that, so to me, a body once perished is irrelevant anyway...I've often wondered that when I've seen a dead person...that person isn't there anymore, but the body remains...empty....I wonder what happens to them all.....

[joeysteele]

I don't believe things happened by accident, I do believe in some force that planned life.

I was brought up RC and I love most of all the teachings as expressed in the words attributed to Jesus. Only the words he has reportedly said, not Saint Paul with his bad tempers and getting up one morning preaching love and brotherhood for all then another day in a foul mood, condemning all and sundry.
That is where the Bible starts to fall away due to inconsistency.

Whether it is a God or a force,that I don't know and no one has a blueprint of what happened or what then happens too after we die.
It was claimed evolution was proven and that evolution proves creation by a force wrong,not so, for something to evolve it must first exist,so the answer still remains as to how whatever evolved came to be in existence in the first place.

As to after we die, I like to think there is a part of us, energy maybe, that remains in some dormant state, that other energy that we have been close to also will be gathered to that mass of energy for whatever in the far off future.

Sometimes fiction carries more sensible answers or possible interpetrations of possible answers, such as in the film 'Ghost' at the end, where he says he has to go now but that you take the love with you.
I don't believe after death that we go and have parties and meals and skip around all day in heaven but I can believe part of our energy goes on for some reason and that those we are connected to,then their energy is also afterwards gathered all together.

I could be totally wrong obviously but that's where I am personally as to any faith I have at the present time anyway.

[Jesus.]

Nothing.

The "glint in the eye," as you put it, is the personality. That is a product of genetic wiring and direct experiences growing up, and cobbled together by the brain to reflect out our histories.

Otherwise you have to go into the galactical justice system that gives some people a glint, but others a murderous glint. If we accept that we aren't special, and are just bog standard machines, but carrying around the most complicated structure in the universe in our heads, then we are exactly what you would expect.

As the late, great, Christopher Hitchens wrote, “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[Ammi]

..if we weren't special though then we wouldn't be unique...and we are all unique....but yes..there are 'good glints' and 'bad glints'...extremes..but, on the whole I think most people have a bit of both, which is how it should be to create a balanced personality....

..and I also don't think we always need evidence for everything...not when it comes to spritual/emotional things....

[Jesus.]

I don't believe things happened by accident, I do believe in some force that planned life.

I was brought up RC and I love most of all the teachings as expressed in the words attributed to Jesus. Only the words he has reportedly said, not Saint Paul with his bad tempers and getting up one morning preaching love and brotherhood for all then another day in a foul mood, condemning all and sundry.
That is where the Bible starts to fall away due to inconsistency.

Whether it is a God or a force,that I don't know and no one has a blueprint of what happened or what then happens too after we die.
It was claimed evolution was proven and that evolution proves creation by a force wrong,not so, for something to evolve it must first exist,so the answer still remains as to how whatever evolved came to be in existence in the first place.

As to after we die, I like to think there is a part of us, energy maybe, that remains in some dormant state, that other energy that we have been close to also will be gathered to that mass of energy for whatever in the far off future.

Sometimes fiction carries more sensible answers or possible interpetrations of possible answers, such as in the film 'Ghost' at the end, where he says he has to go now but that you take the love with you.
I don't believe after death that we go and have parties and meals and skip around all day in heaven but I can believe part of our energy goes on for some reason and that those we are connected to,then their energy is also afterwards gathered all together.

I could be totally wrong obviously but that's where I am personally as to any faith I have at the present time anyway.

You made an error on your evolution point. What you're talking about is abiogenesis, which is the process by which something can turn from chemistry to life. Scientists don't quite understand this yet, but they are getting closer. Within your lifetime, this process will be fully understood.

Evolution as a theory is completely sound. You wouldn't jump off a building because you weren't quite sure about Newton's theories. Darwins theory is backed up by science across many disciplines, including geology, paleontology and biology.

[Jesus.]

..if we weren't special though then we wouldn't be unique...and we are all unique....but yes..there are 'good glints' and 'bad glints'...extremes..but, on the whole I think most people have a bit of both, which is how it should be to create a balanced personality....

..and I also don't think we always need evidence for everything...not when it comes to spritual/emotional things....

Of course we're all unique. In the same way every dog or cat is unique.

I think when postulating about potential zones that spirits can fly off to after our bodies die, it's pretty critical to have some kind of evidence otherwise the scenario can be played out into absurdity.

I don't understand why people want there to be something else. Live your life, try to do well and have a family (if that's your bag) and then our genes kill us off to make way for future generations. It's how nature works, and nature, apart from being a cruel bitch, is ruthlessly efficient when it comes to death

[joeysteele]

You made an error on your evolution point. What you're talking about is abiogenesis, which is the process by which something can turn from chemistry to life. Scientists don't quite understand this yet, but they are getting closer. Within your lifetime, this process will be fully understood.

Evolution as a theory is completely sound. You wouldn't jump of a building because you weren't quite sure about Newton's theories. Darwins theory is backed up by science across many disciplines, including geology, paleontology and biology.

It is claimed by some people that evolution disproves the creation argument,I have had many debates with those who believe in evolution and are adamant it rules out creation.
My point is simple, for something to evolve it or something it evolves from must first exist,so for me personally evolution does not in itself disprove the creative element.

Everyone has their views and interpetrations as to how they see things, you accept a different take as to evolution however I was relating my point above as to my discussions on this topic with others who also in their personal view take a different interpetration as to your own stance as to evolution.

Science may well come up with stronger evidence as you point out in your post, they have not as yet conclusively done so though.
Therefore others will form and develop their own views in the full lack of such evidence until it does come.
Science too though, has been known to at times backtrack on things it has said has been so in the past.
Scientists also disagree with other scientists. Who do we believe,who is right and who is wrong.
I go with feeling,which is what my post stated, that is where I am at at this point in time as to any faith or whatever people may want to call it.

A silly point maybe to make now but I am going to do so,
If I am watcHing a quiz on TV or doing a quiz with others, when a question is asked, I can have one of 3 feelings, I know for sure the answer so answer right off, I am not sure so take time to work it out,maybe never doing so or I haven't a clue so I say nothing feeling I would be totally wrong.
My feeling as to creation and what may or may not happen after we die, is as I put in my post,my feeling is confident enough for me to say that is where I am at the present time.
Just as you are equally confident in your position on things too.
It makes neither of us right but neither of us wrong either.

[joeysteele]

..if we weren't special though then we wouldn't be unique...and we are all unique....but yes..there are 'good glints' and 'bad glints'...extremes..but, on the whole I think most people have a bit of both, which is how it should be to create a balanced personality....

..and I also don't think we always need evidence for everything...not when it comes to spritual/emotional things....

I agree fully with this. Really good point.

[Ammi]

..yes, I do agree that nature is ruthlessly efficient..but that's when it comes down to what your personal belief in what 'death' is...I believe death is of the body and not of the spirit...I don't know whether a spirit can die...I guess that's why I'm interested....

..I don't think it's so much wanting there to be something else..for me anyway...if a spirit dies with the body, then so be it....I'm just not sure that it does....and I know I never will be sure..no one can...but I find it interesting....


..of course, being Jesus..you already know where all of those spirits go..

[Kazanne]

I believe in reincarnation,obviously not as we were but I do not believe we go through life and gain all that knowlege just for it to disappear,what would be the point?i believe that each life is given to us to be a better person,I believe there is a higher level than us.

[Jesus.]

Then why do we have to learn the same lessons as children every time? Surely by the 5th/6th reincarnation, we'd all be child geniuses.

[Kazanne]

Then why do we have to learn the same lessons as children every time? Surely by the 5th/6th reincarnation, we'd all be child geniuses.

Everyones life is different,maybe we need different experiences as children too as what we are taught when we are children goes a long way to how we are as adults.everything from any former life would no longer be there.

[Livia]

Perhaps you need to have faith to believe your spirit goes on. Unfortunately, if you do have faith you aren't able to discuss this - and other - subjects because those who don't will do everything they can to dismiss your beliefs, usually by telling you that your loved ones are gone forever and are rotting in the ground. I don't believe that is true, and all the quotes from other people who also have no faith, no matter how famous they are or were, will not make me believe that death is the end. But if you want to believe it is... knock yourself out.

[Jesus.]

Everyones life is different,maybe we need different experiences as children too as what we are taught when we are children goes a long way to how we are as adults.everything from any former life would no longer be there.

I agree about the first point.

So are we maintaining all of our knowledge from previous lives, or is every life a new beginning and an opportunity for a unique individual to choose their own path in life? They can't be both.

[Niamh.]

hhhmmmm I don't believe in "God" as such, I think when we die that's probably just the end but tbqh the only way I'll no for sure is when I die :laugh:

[Ammi]

Perhaps you need to have faith to believe your spirit goes on. Unfortunately, if you do have faith you aren't able to discuss this - and other - subjects because those who don't will do everything they can to dismiss your beliefs, usually by telling you that your loved ones are gone forever and are rotting in the ground. I don't believe that is true, and all the quotes from other people who also have no faith, no matter how famous they are or were, will not make me believe that death is the end. But if you want to believe it is... knock yourself out.

..I agree with everything you have said...in the words of George Michael, you've got to have faith...and for myself, I don't consider faith to be the same as following a religion...

[Ammi]

hhhmmmm I don't believe in "God" as such, I think when we die that's probably just the end but tbqh the only way I'll no for sure is when I die :laugh:


...not before Christmas Niamh..think of Gav and the children....

..does Gav know how to cook a turkey...?...

[Jesus.]

Perhaps you need to have faith to believe your spirit goes on. Unfortunately, if you do have faith you aren't able to discuss this - and other - subjects because those who don't will do everything they can to dismiss your beliefs, usually by telling you that your loved ones are gone forever and are rotting in the ground. I don't believe that is true, and all the quotes from other people who also have no faith, no matter how famous they are or were, will not make me believe that death is the end. But if you want to believe it is... knock yourself out.

I wouldn't say I've done everything I can to dismiss peoples beliefs. I think my point of view is quite clear, but all I've done is lay that down, then ask people about their beliefs.

I don't think it's completely unreasonable asking people to explain what they believe in, and why. If they can't, they can't. They can just say it's just "faith" and we'll move on.

[Niamh.]

...not before Christmas Niamh..think of Gav and the children....

..does Gav know how to cook a turkey...?...

hahaha, he's a great cook actually

[King Gizzard]

I come on TiBB to get away from stuff like this lol, but I do so...I'll leave it at that

[Ammi]

hahaha, he's a great cook actually

...oh LOL ok, I wasn't expecting that...I can't really say..go ahead and die then..see what it's like...haha..you got me there...do you know what to do if you have a little piece of wrapping paper and you haven't got a gift small enough to fit in it..?..I don't want to throw it away, it might come in useful for something..such a waste....?....and then do I have to cut off a whole big bit, just to wrap up this small thing which is too big for the smaller bit...?....

..Niamh...help....please...don't die on me, I need you....

[Livia]

I wouldn't say I've done everything I can to dismiss peoples beliefs. I think my point of view is quite clear, but all I've done is lay that down, then ask people about their beliefs.

I don't think it's completely unreasonable asking people to explain what they believe in, and why. If they can't, they can't. They can just say it's just "faith" and we'll move on.



It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

[LemonJam]

I don't believe in an afterlife of any form quite honestly. It's a lovely thought but I think it's essentially an emotional crutch for those who fear death.

[Livia]

I don't believe in an afterlife of any form quite honestly. It's a lovely thought but I think it's essentially an emotional crutch for those who fear death.

Surely, everyone is fearful of death.

[Jesus.]

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

I've definitely got a big kite, if you want to pull on my string.

You don't have to be blind, but I'll definitely be more attractive if you are.

[Niamh.]

...oh LOL ok, I wasn't expecting that...I can't really say..go ahead and die then..see what it's like...haha..you got me there...do you know what to do if you have a little piece of wrapping paper and you haven't got a gift small enough to fit in it..?..I don't want to throw it away, it might come in useful for something..such a waste....?....and then do I have to cut off a whole big bit, just to wrap up this small thing which is too big for the smaller bit...?....

..Niamh...help....please...don't die on me, I need you....

Simple, buy something to fit it :amazed:

[AnnieK]

This is such a personal issue and one that is very hard to debate as I think by adult age you have formed a view on this and as it is never likely to be proved one way or another it's just a personal take on it. Personally I believe in reincarnation but if you don't then that's fine.

[Ammi]

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

..but also..with a body, for me it's just an empty vessel..and for whatever reason it can't continue, then it's quite straight forward and easy to understand..perhaps it's old and tired..but with a spirit..the essence of a person..the real person they are..that can be bright and healthy up to the last breath...I don't believe it just disappears..I have no idea exactly what happens and I don't think I believe in reincarnation or 'ghosts'..but I do believe it is still there...somewhere....

[Livia]

I've definitely got a big kite, if you want to pull on my string.

You don't have to be blind, but I'll definitely be more attractive if you are.

Yeah, I've heard about you guys with big kites. Takes a lot more tugging to get it up.

Nice body-swerve on the issue though Jesus, you git.

[Ammi]

Simple, buy something to fit it :amazed:

..this is why you have to live forever Niamh...:love:

[Niamh.]

..this is why you have to live forever Niamh...:love:

:laugh:

[Jesus.]

Yeah, I've heard about you guys with big kites. Takes a lot more tugging to get it up.

Nice body-swerve on the issue though Jesus, you git.

Quick flights only, I'm afraid. Oh, and my kite will be wrapped up warm - not like those Jewish ones.

My avoidance of the issue was only in order to be polite, really. You're right, faith is completely personal, and none of us know what anyone else on the planet experiences, but the definition of faith, is to believe something for which there is no evidence.

For my geeky mind, that fits rather well.

[Ammi]

This is such a personal issue and one that is very hard to debate as I think by adult age you have formed a view on this and as it is never likely to be proved one way or another it's just a personal take on it. Personally I believe in reincarnation but if you don't then that's fine.

...I don't think I thought about it at all when I was youger Annie..from that point, I can see what LJ is saying...I've only ever thought a lot about it since adulthood and losing more people I've been close to....

[Ammi]

Quick flights only, I'm afraid. Oh, and my kite will be wrapped up warm - not like those Jewish ones.

My avoidance of the issue was only in order to be polite, really. You're right, faith is completely personal, and none of us know what anyone else on the planet experiences, but the definition of faith, is to believe something for which there is no evidence.

For my geeky mind, that fits rather well.

..you don't have to have evidence for everything though JHC...not when it comes to spiritual and emotional things...for instance something can touch someone quite deeply and reduce them to tears..they may feel very emotional about some small little thing that no one else does..there's no evidence for that..it's not something that can be explained..it just is...and it's as real as anything else...

[Livia]

Quick flights only, I'm afraid. Oh, and my kite will be wrapped up warm - not like those Jewish ones.

My avoidance of the issue was only in order to be polite, really. You're right, faith is completely personal, and none of us know what anyone else on the planet experiences, but the definition of faith, is to believe something for which there is no evidence.

For my geeky mind, that fits rather well.

Makes a note... *uncut*.

Agreeing to differ. I like that. And it's kind of new for you....................

[Jesus.]

Surely, everyone is fearful of death.

The Greek philosopher, Epicurus.

"Death is nothing to me because I'll never experience it. When I'm dead, I won't know or care that I'm dead. I desire happiness and I fear pain, since neither exists in death, death is of neutral value and not something to be desired or feared."

That sums it up quite nicely.

[Niamh.]

The Greek philosopher, Epicurus.

"Death is nothing to me because I'll never experience it. When I'm dead, I won't know or care that I'm dead. I desire happiness and I fear pain, since neither exists in death, death is of neutral value and not something to be desired or feared."

That sums it up quite nicely.

I agree with that but for me it's more a fear of losing people I love by dying and those great connections.

[Z]

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

What a wonderful analogy! I really like that Livia, thank you for sharing :).

I was not brought up in a religious household, I'm not of a religion and the only times I've ever been inside any religious institution have been when I was at school and they took us to the church for in-service days. I couldn't even tell you which affiliation the church had, nor do I know very much about Christianity or other religions.

What I do believe, however, stems from my reading of many different great classic works of literature. I remember being 12 years old in a biology lesson at school and being taught about how, if there are too many rabbits one spring, there will be an increase in the number of animals that prey upon rabbits and an increase in diseases that kill rabbits. Nature is constantly balancing itself out. For me, that theory extends to humans. There are WAY too many people in the world, so as a means to balance that imbalance, there has been a rise in the following: incurable (and new) diseases, homosexuality and infertility. I've got nothing to back this up other than my own personal belief in this idea, but to me, it makes sense. People didn't die of cancer hundreds of years ago, because they were dying in wars and of flu outbreaks and of plagues and other ailments. Once our society developed enough to be able to combat these things, did we suddenly stop dying of mystery illnesses? No, the illnesses just got harder to cure. HIV, AIDS, many types of cancer... all of these, to me, seem like modern illnesses. Perhaps people used to die of cancer all the time, they just didn't know it at the time, but certainly it's become more prevalent in modern times. Nature killing people off makes sense. There are too many people in the world. Homosexuality is one surefire way to stop people from reproducing, but with scientific advances allowing even that to happen now, I reckon some new way of stopping people from becoming parents will rise up - leading me to my point about infertility. The existence of IVF alone suggests that infertility was considered a significant problem, so I wouldn't be too shocked if figures for that are on the constant rise, but I've not looked into it so I don't know.

So, to relate all this back to the question of the soul. I don't know if I believe in an all powerful God figure which judges everything we do and decides upon an eternity of happiness or horror for us - that seems to be a societal construct rather than an actual possibility. Why would that make any sense? How do you judge good behaviour and bad behaviour? There are so many shades of grey. Stealing medicine is a bad thing, but if it's to give it to your dying younger brother so that he will live, that is a good thing, right? Life is made up of these sorts of scenarios. It is impossible for someone to live a wholly good or a wholly bad life. I think a person's soul dictates what they are like, even from birth. My parents always tell me that when I was born, I opened my eyes almost immediately and was constantly looking around the hospital to see what was around me, and to this day I'm still a really inquisitive person, always learning new things and taking an interest in the world around me. You could argue that that is a learned behaviour, but my parents are adamant that I was like that from the day I was born, so was that just something I was destined to be? Part of life is trying to figure out what it's about, and I don't especially care if other people can completely refute my point of view, I'm quite pleased with my views on the soul/destiny/nature's law because they make sense and appeal to what I like to view the world as. This is an interesting thread Ammi, thanks for posting!

[Jesus.]

..you don't have to have evidence for everything though JHC...not when it comes to spiritual and emotional things...for instance something can touch someone quite deeply and reduce them to tears..they may feel very emotional about some small little thing that no one else does..there's no evidence for that..it's not something that can be explained..it just is...and it's as real as anything else...

Do you mean in terms of being moved by a piece of music, or a painting? Along those lines?

I agree we can't explain everything, but then that works 2 ways, and to leap from "I can't explain it, therefore it's something supernatural", is not something I'm capable of doing.

But if you want to, then that's great for you, and if that helps (and **** knows we all need help), then I would never begrudge you that. I'd only ever try to get you to see another way.

[Jesus.]

Makes a note... *uncut*.

Agreeing to differ. I like that. And it's kind of new for you....................

I reckon it adds at least a millimeter of girth. Just, y'know, throwing that out there.

What can I say? I'm a changed man.

[Ammi]

What a wonderful analogy! I really like that Livia, thank you for sharing :).

I was not brought up in a religious household, I'm not of a religion and the only times I've ever been inside any religious institution have been when I was at school and they took us to the church for in-service days. I couldn't even tell you which affiliation the church had, nor do I know very much about Christianity or other religions.

What I do believe, however, stems from my reading of many different great classic works of literature. I remember being 12 years old in a biology lesson at school and being taught about how, if there are too many rabbits one spring, there will be an increase in the number of animals that prey upon rabbits and an increase in diseases that kill rabbits. Nature is constantly balancing itself out. For me, that theory extends to humans. There are WAY too many people in the world, so as a means to balance that imbalance, there has been a rise in the following: incurable (and new) diseases, homosexuality and infertility. I've got nothing to back this up other than my own personal belief in this idea, but to me, it makes sense. People didn't die of cancer hundreds of years ago, because they were dying in wars and of flu outbreaks and of plagues and other ailments. Once our society developed enough to be able to combat these things, did we suddenly stop dying of mystery illnesses? No, the illnesses just got harder to cure. HIV, AIDS, many types of cancer... all of these, to me, seem like modern illnesses. Perhaps people used to die of cancer all the time, they just didn't know it at the time, but certainly it's become more prevalent in modern times. Nature killing people off makes sense. There are too many people in the world. Homosexuality is one surefire way to stop people from reproducing, but with scientific advances allowing even that to happen now, I reckon some new way of stopping people from becoming parents will rise up - leading me to my point about infertility. The existence of IVF alone suggests that infertility was considered a significant problem, so I wouldn't be too shocked if figures for that are on the constant rise, but I've not looked into it so I don't know.

So, to relate all this back to the question of the soul. I don't know if I believe in an all powerful God figure which judges everything we do and decides upon an eternity of happiness or horror for us - that seems to be a societal construct rather than an actual possibility. Why would that make any sense? How do you judge good behaviour and bad behaviour? There are so many shades of grey. Stealing medicine is a bad thing, but if it's to give it to your dying younger brother so that he will live, that is a good thing, right? Life is made up of these sorts of scenarios. It is impossible for someone to live a wholly good or a wholly bad life. I think a person's soul dictates what they are like, even from birth. My parents always tell me that when I was born, I opened my eyes almost immediately and was constantly looking around the hospital to see what was around me, and to this day I'm still a really inquisitive person, always learning new things and taking an interest in the world around me. You could argue that that is a learned behaviour, but my parents are adamant that I was like that from the day I was born, so was that just something I was destined to be? Part of life is trying to figure out what it's about, and I don't especially care if other people can completely refute my point of view, I'm quite pleased with my views on the soul/destiny/nature's law because they make sense and appeal to what I like to view the world as. This is an interesting thread Ammi, thanks for posting!

..I think for me Zee, it's not so much about good/bad..heaven/hell..I don't believe in heaven and hell..and I agree that a 'good' person is a person with a good balance..as not many people are purely good or bad...it's more about what makes the person..like you with your curiosity..and other parts of your personality that go to make Zee...the outside Zee..the body..is just a vessel..for me, you could transfer your personality to anyone and it would still be you..a you that looks different, but that's all....

..I don't believe that part of us ever dies..I don't know what happens to it though....

[Ammi]

Do you mean in terms of being moved by a piece of music, or a painting? Along those lines?

I agree we can't explain everything, but then that works 2 ways, and to leap from "I can't explain it, therefore it's something supernatural", is not something I'm capable of doing.

But if you want to, then that's great for you, and if that helps (and **** knows we all need help), then I would never begrudge you that. I'd only ever try to get you to see another way.



.it could be anything..it could be virtually nothing..just something you personally find emotional..I could give examples but it wouldn't matter..people find different things emotional...the point is, it can't be explained...not everything can be explained...and I do see it you way..honestly, I do...but that's the thing..what you say makes total sense, so my sense tells me I should accept it..and yet I don't...unexplainable...

..I don't follow a religion either..and I don't believe in ghosts/supernatural spirits etc...

[Jesus.]

.it could be anything..it could be virtually nothing..just something you personally find emotional..I could give examples but it wouldn't matter..people find different things emotional...the point is, it can't be explained...not everything can be explained...and I do see it you way..honestly, I do...but that's the thing..what you say makes total sense, so my sense tells me I should accept it..and yet I don't...unexplainable...

..I don't follow a religion either..and I don't believe in ghosts/supernatural spirits etc...

You woman - me man.

Makes perfect sense.

[Ammi]

..LOL..ok..end the thread...I'm glad we got that one straightened out...

[Kizzy]

I feel as kazanne that we journey through life the goals are to feed our souls, to enrich them. That we have to achieve a certain level of knowledge not academic but spiritual.
In a way religion hinders that path as we are told what to do, and what is right and wrong.
This stops us using our own instinct and intuition to guide us, thus affecting our free will.
The one strange thing is if we are decended from beasts when did the conscience evolve?
Animals are driven by base instinct, so when did we get to choose what we do against ours?

[LemonJam]

Surely, everyone is fearful of death.

True :P what I mean to say is that I think people who do believe in an afterlife of some sort take comfort in that, because they may not like the idea of life just ending with nothing else afterwards. So I'll reword myself, I think that the idea of an afterlife is a much nicer alternative than just nothingness and it puts people more at ease with the idea of passing on.

[Ammi]

True :P what I mean to say is that I think people who do believe in an afterlife of some sort take comfort in that, because they may not like the idea of life just ending with nothing else afterwards. So I'll reword myself, I think that the idea of an afterlife is a much nicer alternative than just nothingness and it puts people more at ease with the idea of passing on.

..I believe that people do 'pass on' LJ..but there is something that isn't tangible...and maybe that something is just what's in people's hearts..minds, memories etc..I don't know...but we're all more that just a physical body..and I can only 'see' that part that passes on....

[Jesus.]

I feel as kazanne that we journey through life the goals are to feed our souls, to enrich them. That we have to achieve a certain level of knowledge not academic but spiritual.
In a way religion hinders that path as we are told what to do, and what is right and wrong.
This stops us using our own and intuition to guide us, thus affecting our free will.
The one strange thing is if we are decended from beasts when did the conscience evolve?
Animals are driven by base instinct, so when did we get to choose what we do against ours?

It's one of the big breakthroughs in evolution.

To start, we walked upright which freed up our hands
We evolved opposable thumbs, which allowed us to manipulate our environment and create tools and weapons.

The fact we were both hunting and cooking meat, increased the sizes of our brains massively.

Conscience is more than likely a by product of basic empathy that the great apes all exhibit, but the brain is so complex, that we're only scratching the surface.

[Kazanne]

I could try explaining but I'll be here forever all I know is I have faith and have always believed we are here to give something to the world,as in our children etc.I believe we should all be aware that we are not the be all and end all of everything,the world is quite sick at the moment and that is down to us,as life goes on hopefully we will learn to be more compassionate and tolerant.

[Shaun]

Surely, everyone is fearful of death.

not really. I'm quite ambivalent about it. When it happens, it happens.

[InOne]

I don't believe in any form of afterlife or that we have a 'spirit'. I also know I didn't get any of my morals from the Bible, they're just drilled inside of it. Basically whatever you'd describe a conscience as.

It would be nice to have faith but none of it is logical to me. And it's a very personal thing for people and if they have it nothing will change their minds.

[Irene Pearson]

not really. I'm quite ambivalent about it. When it happens, it happens.

Me too Turboman. Fearing death must be quite disabling.

[Irene Pearson]

I feel as kazanne that we journey through life the goals are to feed our souls, to enrich them. That we have to achieve a certain level of knowledge not academic but spiritual.
In a way religion hinders that path as we are told what to do, and what is right and wrong.
This stops us using our own instinct and intuition to guide us, thus affecting our free will.
The one strange thing is if we are decended from beasts when did the conscience evolve?
Animals are driven by base instinct, so when did we get to choose what we do against ours?

Agree with the first part of your post. If a person wants to seek spiritual enlightenment Just quietly in your own space ask for it.I was taught by my Christian upbringing that life after death was a fact. I felt the God I was encouraged to "worship" had definitely at the very least a warped personality. I turned away from that as soon as I could and sought a real path FOR ME. We are all capable of finding that enlightenment FOR OURSELVES. What you personally need you will find.

[armand.kay]

I like to thing I believe in a after life but deep down I know it isn't real :(

[smeagol]

i look at it two ways
one.
we are no different than the maggots and worms that slither on the earth. the only difference between humans is we think were better than any other creature and we have heaven and hell n they have nothing. but in reality there is nothing we are just destructive creatures who are born consume n die no god nothing born from germs.

or my own theory which i like is. we die and come back to re live the same life over and over without knowing it that's why we get de ja vue as we have already lived it before but each time its different. as sometimes we make different choices.
though i have seen ghosts and other things .therefore believe in them so there is something spirit wise out there that is for sure.
there is no god no devil. i think the god and devil is in all of us. thats why you get evil people they let the devil side rule. and you get really good people. most of us are both.
there is no hell or heaven. life can be hell for many ,
you would be one unlucky sob to have a life of hell die then go to hell lol yikes. no such thing.

[Irene Pearson]

i look at it two ways
one.
we are no different than the maggots and worms that slither on the earth. the only difference between humans is we think were better than any other creature and we have heaven and hell n they have nothing. but in reality there is nothing we are just destructive creatures who are born consume n die no god nothing born from germs.

or my own theory which i like is. we die and come back to re live the same life over and over without knowing it that's why we get de ja vue as we have already lived it before but each time its different. as sometimes we make different choices.
though i have seen ghosts and other things .therefore believe in them so there is something spirit wise out there that is for sure.
there is no god no devil. i think the god and devil is in all of us. thats why you get evil people they let the devil side rule. and you get really good people. most of us are both.
there is no hell or heaven. life can be hell for many ,
you would be one unlucky sob to have a life of hell die then go to hell lol yikes. no such thing.

Agree with most if your theory

[Kazanne]

I believe,not because I have been told to,I just FEEL it quite strongly.

[Marcus.]

I believe,not because I have been told to,I just FEEL it quite strongly.

same here kaz

[Redway]

No, there's probably no afterlife waiting for us out there. You live and then you die. That said, I'm not going to force that view on anyone and feel free to disagree.

[Stu]

I'm always astonished by peoples reactions when I tell them I'm very spiritual but don't believe in God. Western society generally is incredibly predisposed to this incredibly non spiritual, outward looking, patriarchal form of faith that is teeming with about as much wonder and joy as kneeling in a tax office. To me the mechanic of God is incredibly unnecessary to sustain a belief in there being something more. It's nice that so many people here understand that unlike a lot of people I have encountered in person.

The idea of God being female or there being both a male and female creator always applied way more to me also than God being this retarded daddy who always messes things up and knocks his children about. I don't think anything close to a man would be capable of making the more beautiful parts of our cosmos and existence.

I digress, anyway. Because my beliefs generally don't tend to involve God[s] although I'm not entirely closed to the concept. To be honest my beliefs were built on and shaped by love and [sigh] psychedelic drugs. The first time I took psilocybin mushrooms I came out of it refusing to believe it was some stupid, inane set of images and modes of madness constructed by a brain in the throes of complete chemical bastardization. The fact that a naturally occurring fungi did such powerful things to my mind that always had a revelatory, spiritual edge to them changed me and left me more open and compassionate.

That got me into researching DMT or Dimethyltryptamine. You can look it up on Google or YouTube. Most people seem to be exposed to it through Joe Rogan's stand up comedy nowadays which is fine because he gives a concise, entertaining read of it but if you really want to be amazed check out Dr. Rick Strassman's book or film on the subject entitled 'The Spirit Molecule'.

DMT is essentially a trace amine neurotransmitter which occurs in virtually all living matter. We know it occurs in trace amounts in humans but it was Strassman who put forward the concept that it is created in your pineal gland - a tiny endocrine gland center of your brain that Rene Descartes christened the third eye. Strassman believes DMT may play a role in dreaming and near death experience.

Consuming it as drug brings on an absurdly powerful out of body experience. Smoked in it's pure form it will bring about a ten minute trip to space where most users encounter highly complex geometric patterns made of various symbols and languages before encountering alien like beings who appear to be flowing with a tremendous amount of information. Taken as Ayahuasca - a brew form created with native shamanic technology - it drags the experience out of hours allowing for a more gradual, learned experience with it.

It's DMT that convinced me our brains might simply be mere receivers and opened me up to the idea of pure consciousness without physical limitations. Similar to the body as vessel theories in this thread. I'm very much convinced on the idea of the material world and the ego being highly complex constructs of a collective consciousness. I don't disregard them, mind you. I like individuality and I like PlayStations and nice looking coffee tables.

Right now the cosmos as a whole is my god. I believe in a meditative energy we can all tap into to realize fundamentally what we are. Lovely little balls of light who should show compassion to one another. To swim in humor and love. I don't know what will happen when we die. Given how open I am to all of this it may surprise you that I'm still not sold on reincarnation.

As for love? Well that's easy. Once I fell in love I refused to believe it was a highly complex, deep rooted chemical reaction in my brain. That it wasn't something that now 'grew' that I was conditioned to give strong emotional response to. Once I fell in love that was it.

Quite a change considering I was a shameless dabbler in left hand path LaVeyan Satanism. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. Collect your T-Shirt on the way out the door.

[Kizzy]

I'm confused stu, did you decide that god didn't exist before or after you became a satanist? :)

[Jesus.]

Bazinga.

[Redway]

Either way, if there's any God at all, it's definitely not the religious one.

[Stu]

I'm confused stu, did you decide that god didn't exist before or after you became a satanist? :)
I would never go so far as to identify myself as a Satanist but I was interested in the LaVeyan philosophy [It's atheistic. They don't actually believe in Satan, more nick his imagery because he's a swell metaphor for the anti hero.]

My interest in that fell by the wayside when I got all spiritual. I never believed in God though. Even from a young age I can't remember ever professing or holding the view that God must exist.

[Kizzy]

I would never go so far as to identify myself as a Satanist but I was interested in the LaVeyan philosophy [It's atheistic. They don't actually believe in Satan, more nick his imagery because he's a swell metaphor for the anti hero.]

My interest in that fell by the wayside when I got all spiritual. I never believed in God though. Even from a young age I can't remember ever professing or holding the view that God must exist.

You did though stu, you said you followed the left hand path as a satanist.
Now you say that satan was just used as an identifiable brand like the golden arches?...
You got all spiritual when you began to dabble in drugs?...
Cool man :)

[Stu]

You did though stu, you said you followed the left hand path as a satanist.
I didn't say I followed it as a Satanist. I said I dabbled in it. Professed an interest in. Explored the inner workings of.

Now you say that satan was just used as an identifiable brand like the golden arches?
No I said it back then as well. Every LaVeyan Satanist will tell you they don't believe in Satan. That's called theistic Satanism and it is a different belief system altogether. LaVeyan Satanists are atheist. It's a pretty pragmatic might is right twist on humanism. They just wear silly costumes and have a system of theatrics that automatically and effortlessly convince idiots that they are honest-to-god devil worshipers.

You got all spiritual when you began to dabble in drugs?...
Cool man :)
That's some of it, yes. It also coincided with a time in my life when I was becoming more spiritual anyway, because of other stuff I have mentioned that you're not taking on board.

Because really you're only capable of a certain amount of baggage before you implode into some victimizing implosion of anti logic.

[GypsyGoth]

I don’t believe in any gods.

About the afterlife I don’t know, all of the stories about it conveniently can’t be proved until you die. So I’m pretty sceptical whenever someone claims they know with certainty what comes next.

On a more personal note, I would love to be wrong, it would be amazing to be met by my father and told about this fantastical eternity awaiting me. But I suspect it’s hopes like that where these religions fabricated their heavenly tales from, and maybe it’s not a bad thing, it gives comfort to millions or billions in this world.

If I was to guess, I would say after we die we will end up the same place as the plants, animals and bugs; we will cease to be. We will come to an end and be no more. So in a way nothingness.

[Kizzy]

*Resists urge to sing 'the circle of life'*
:)

[Z]

I like your views, Stu.

[Marsh.]

or my own theory which i like is. we die and come back to re live the same life over and over without knowing it that's why we get de ja vue as we have already lived it before but each time its different. as sometimes we make different choices.

I find that quite a depressing thought tbh. :hugesmile:

I'd prefer to come back and get the chance to live someone else's life (preferably rich) . :laugh:

Not that I believe money is the key to happiness or in anyway discontent with my own life. :whistle:

[joeysteele]

To be fair, on this topic there have been some really interesting and thought provoking ones to take on board and think about from the post made by everyone.

I am more with Ammi and kazanne on this issue myself,I agree a 'feeling' is a good way to be more open on the subject as they are.
I have, from just having 'feelings', been shown to be right as to them so many times in my life on a lot of other issues that it is feelings I get and hold that mark out the paths I eventually take a lot of the time now.

Smeagol, I really was interested in your post above, I have for instance done things or been somewhere and felt I had done it or been there before but knew for certain I hadn't.

Stu though,I found your post really fascinating to read,your post in itself is a really good talking point on the subject.Really interesting.

One thing is for sure, this thread shows it is far from being a boring subject.

[Livia]

not really. I'm quite ambivalent about it. When it happens, it happens.

When I said everyone fears death, I didn't mean to imply that I spend my whole life worrying about it. What does scare me slightly is the thought of a long, lingering death, of losing control of my body while my brain stays active or of suffering a hugely painful death. And of course, the pain that is caused to those who love you when you die.

[Livia]

I'm always astonished by peoples reactions when I tell them I'm very spiritual but don't believe in God... etc. etc. etc.

Post of the thread.

Where's my teeshirt?

[Jesus.]

Post of the thread.

Where's my teeshirt?

Maybe the quote. Definitely not the post.

[Livia]

Maybe the quote. Definitely not the post.

As a personal opinion I thought it was very eloquent.

[Jesus.]

Different strokes for different folks.

[Livia]

Different strokes for different folks.

Indisputably.

[Tom4784]

I don't worry about it, if there is an afterlife then it's most likely something beyond comprehension so I'm not gonna sweat it until I shuffle off the mortal coil.

As for religion I despise it, I do like the thought that there might be something beyond death but I'm not gonna let someone who has no clue about it either tell me what to believe.

[Stu]

Different strokes for different folks.
A stitch in time saves nine.

[Jesus.]

A stitch in time saves nine.

A bird in the hand, is worth two in the bush.

[Kizzy]

I don't worry about it, if there is an afterlife then it's most likely something beyond comprehension so I'm not gonna sweat it until I shuffle off the mortal coil.

As for religion I despise it, I do like the thought that there might be something beyond death but I'm not gonna let someone who has no clue about it either tell me what to believe.

Now you know me, I don't suck ass but this really is the post of the thread..
kudos babs.