Death penalty for British drug smuggler...

[Ammi]

British woman Lindsay Sandiford has been sentenced to death for drug smuggling on the Indonesian island of Bali.

The 56-year-old grandmother, originally from Redcar, Teesside, had been found guilty of violating the country's strict drug laws.

Sandiford was arrested in May 2012 at Bali airport when customs officers found 3.8kg of cocaine worth £1.6m in her luggage. She claimed she had been forced to smuggle the drugs into Bali from Thailand by a criminal gang.

Prosecutors announced in December that they would be recommending a 15-year prison sentence, after she agreed to co-operate in a sting operation in which police swooped on four other suspects alleged to be her accomplices, including Britons Rachel Dougall, Julian Ponder and Paul Beales.

Pounder is accused of receiving the drugs in Bali, where cocaine and ecstasy are often bought and sold between foreign nationals. A verdict is expected in the trial of Pounder, on Wednesday.

Delivering Sandiford's verdict, a judge panel headed by Mr Amser Simanjuntak said that Sandiford had damaged the image of Bali as a tourism destination and weakened the government's programme of drug annihilation.

"We find Lindsay Sandiford convincingly and legally guilty of importing narcotics. We found no reason to lighten her sentence," said Simanjuntak.

In her witness statement, Sandiford said: "I would like to begin by apologising to the Republic of Indonesia and the Indonesian people for my involvement.

"I would never have become involved in something like this but the lives of my children were in danger and I felt I had to protect them."

Local journalist Amelia Rose was in court when the Sandiford was sentenced.

"She was in shock, but she managed to hold her composure and stand up while the judge read out her sentence," she said.

"Her eyes turned red from tears for a second but she managed to hold her composure again

"There is still a long way to go before an execution can take place. She can appeal to the High Court then the Supreme Court in Jakarta. If she can present new evidence she can have a judicial review.

"Then there is also the chance of clemency with the President."

Sandiford's defence lawyer, Esra Karo-Karo, said: "She was very shocked. This is unpredicted, she never thought of receiving death penalty.

"The judge did not even consider our reason to leniency as we proposed in our defence. We will appeal."

A spokeswoman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said: "We can confirm that a British national is facing the death penalty in Indonesia.

"We remain in close contact with that national and continue to provide consular assistance.

"The UK remains strongly opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances."

Dougall, whose young daughter is reportedly being cared for by their maid and gardener on the island, has claimed she was the victim of a "fit-up".

Reprieve, a charity which seeks to enforce human rights for prisoners, said Sandiford was targeted by drug traffickers.

Spokeswoman Harriet McCulloch said: "Lindsay was targeted by drug traffickers who exploited her vulnerability and made threats against her children.

"Following her arrest, she was interrogated by the Indonesian police without a translator, legal representation or the assistance of the British Embassy for 10 days

A statement by Dr Jennifer Fleetwood, an expert on the coercion of women in the international drug trade, was also read out, which suggested that Sandiford's "vulnerability" would have made her an ideal target for drugs traffickers.

"There is evidence to suggest that a trafficker would seek someone who was vulnerable. Having reviewed extracts from Lindsay's medical records I know that Lindsay has a history of mental health issues.

"This may have unfortunately made her an attractive target for threats, manipulation and coercion by one or more parties over a period of time, which led to her being stopped at Ngurah Rai International Airport".

Indonesia has 114 prisoners on death row, according to a March 2012 study by Australia's Lowy Institute for International Policy. Five foreigners have been executed since 1998, all for drug crimes, according to the institute.

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has granted clemency to four drug offenders on death row since he took office in 2004


Sky news video: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/brit-woman-sentenced-death-bali-060509775.html

[Jake.]

That's just awful. Moronic how murderers can get out from jail and walk free, yet she may face death

[Niamh.]

Like Jake said, I listened on the radio this morning to how a man who raped his own daughter for years all through her childhood got 12 years.......9 suspended (what is the point in this??) and realised on bail pending an appeal so basically walked free and this woman gets the death penalty for drug smuggling...........horrendous

[Jake.]

Like Jake said, I listened on the radio this morning to how a man who raped his own daughter for years all through her childhood got 12 years.......9 suspended (what is the point in this??) and realised on bail pending an appeal so basically walked free and this woman gets the death penalty for drug smuggling...........horrendous

Thank god, I thought I'd have trouble with people agreeing with me :love:

[AnnieK]

Its awful but if you are found guilty of a crime in a country you have to accept their laws and penalties...Hopefully they will be able to provide some evidence to show she wasn't smuggling the drugs for financial gain but to save the lives of her children if that is the case. Other countries take these offences so seriously...

Hope justice prevails if she is innocent and she manages to get her sentence commuted at least...she must be in all kinds of hell mentally...

[Ammi]

..if the execution goes ahead it will be by firing squad...

[Niamh.]

..if the execution goes ahead it will be by firing squad...

wow, that seems so primitive :shocked:

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/22/article-2266264-1715CB77000005DC-413_634x584.jpg
She was arrested in May and said she had been coerced into carrying drugs
Prosecutors had called for 15 year sentence but judges chose death penalty

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2266264/Lindsay-Sandiford-Bali-drug-smuggling-British-grandmother-breaks-Indonesian-court-sentences-death.html#ixzz2Ihi2cVFI

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/22/article-2266264-1715B042000005DC-572_634x569.jpg
She is Guilty

[arista]

wow, that seems so primitive :shocked:


Yes I will be amazed
if they do it

[Kazanne]

Oh,blimey I cannot imagine what this woman is feeling,such an injustice,such severe penalties should be kept for more horrendous crimes such as murder etc.

[Livia]

I can't imagine there are many people who travel to Indonesia who don't know that smuggling drugs carries the death penalty there. And she was guilty of smuggling a massive amount of drugs.

People who are moaning about short sentences here for other crimes have to remember this is Indonesia, not the UK. You can't equate the two because the judicial systems are vastly different. Indonesia is very clear about its drug smuggling policey and the sentences it carries, and yet people still believe they can beat the system.

[Niamh.]

I can't imagine there are many people who travel to Indonesia who don't know that smuggling drugs carries the death penalty there. And she was guilty of smuggling a massive amount of drugs.

People who are moaning about short sentences here for other crimes have to remember this is Indonesia, not the UK. You can't equate the two because the judicial systems are vastly different. Indonesia is very clear about its drug smuggling policey and the sentences it carries, and yet people still believe they can beat the system.

I'm sure that is the case but it doesn't mean we can't disagree with it and say it's too harsh.

[Livia]

I'm sure that is the case but it doesn't mean we can't disagree with it and say it's too harsh.

I don't think I said anywhere that you couldn't... I just pointed out that this isn't a Western judicial system.

[Saph]

I like the courtroom chairs

[Tom4784]

She should have been deported to face trial in the UK, if the stories are to be believed it seems like the Indonesian legal system has well and truly ****ed it all up.

[Vanessa]

I'm sure that is the case but it doesn't mean we can't disagree with it and say it's too harsh.

I agree. She was just trying to protect her kids. Any mother would d the same. :(

[Jesus.]

Y u no smuggle drugs.

[Jack_]

Disgusting. As is any supporter of such a backwards attempt at 'justice'.

[MTVN]

I can't imagine there are many people who travel to Indonesia who don't know that smuggling drugs carries the death penalty there. And she was guilty of smuggling a massive amount of drugs.

People who are moaning about short sentences here for other crimes have to remember this is Indonesia, not the UK. You can't equate the two because the judicial systems are vastly different. Indonesia is very clear about its drug smuggling policey and the sentences it carries, and yet people still believe they can beat the system.

Yeah although I don't agree with the death penalty at all I do agree with this

I find it strange though that she's been sentenced to death when it says in the article that:

Prosecutors announced in December that they would be recommending a 15-year prison sentence, after she agreed to co-operate in a sting operation in which police swooped on four other suspects alleged to be her accomplices

[Kazanne]

Didn't she also help the police catch other drug smugglers? you'de think they would have taken that into account

[Vanessa]

Didn't she also help the police catch other drug smugglers? you'de think they would have taken that into account

The death penalty seems excessive in this case. I hope she wins the appeal.

[Ammi]

Yeah although I don't agree with the death penalty at all I do agree with this

I find it strange though that she's been sentenced to death when it says in the article that:

..according to the article in the Guardian she was given the death penalty because it was deemed that she had damaged Bali's image...

..obviously punishable by death...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/22/indonesia-sentences-briton-death-drugs

[Patrick]

Absolutely horrible.
She should be given a slap on the wrist and sent home - to the British government to deal with her, not this. Honest to God, some countries are so backwards and never listen to reason at all.

As others said here, how some people are able to abuse children, murder all sorts, torture animals etc and walk free is ridiculous, whilst this woman is going to loose her life over this? Makes me so angry.

[Patrick]

..according to the article in the Guardian she was given the death penalty because it was deemed that she had damaged Bali's image...

..obviously punishable by death...


I didn't even know the country bloody existed.

Also find it hilarious that to try and 'save' any sort of image they think they had in the first place, they decide to put a woman to death over this. Logic.

[MusicMan]

What makes me sick is that there is a firing squad of people ready and willing to shoot this lady dead.

[Ammi]

I didn't even know the country bloody existed.

Also find it hilarious that to try and 'save' any sort of image they think they had in the first place, they decide to put a woman to death over this. Logic.



..yeah, we're all going to want to go there now Patrick...I'm thinking of putting it at the top of my holiday destination list....

[MTVN]

..according to the article in the Guardian she was given the death penalty because it was deemed that she had damaged Bali's image...

..obviously punishable by death...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/22/indonesia-sentences-briton-death-drugs

Yeah just seems strange that when even the prosecution only seek a 15 month jail sentence the judge would ignore that and take it upon himself to give the death penalty

[cobdo]

Unbelievable reaction by most of you:rolleyes:

She has been caught bang to rights,she must have known the consequences,the creep also grassed up her accomplices to get a lesser sentence (they will also get the death penalty i assume).........No Pity from me i'm afraid as i dont buy that bull that her kids were threatened for 1 minute.

[Jack_]

Unbelievable reaction by most of you:rolleyes:

She has been caught bang to rights,she must have known the consequences,the creep also grassed up her accomplices to get a lesser sentence (they will also get the death penalty i assume).........No Pity from me i'm afraid as i dont buy that bull that her kids were threatened for 1 minute.

Beautiful irony :love:

[Stu]

An elderly woman is about to be shot in the brain against a brick wall by a country with highly dubious judicial discrepancies. It's wrong and overly harsh no matter what and it's absolutely fair and just that any sane person would question the severity of the punishment.

I don't care for this "we must respect the laws of sovereign states" B.S. Screw them. Their laws suck and we have a right to comment on that.

[bbfan1991]

OMG.

[arista]

Stu

What do you want a Rescie?

[Sticks]

The sooner this drug smuggler is executed the better

Let's hope our government do not interfere in the legitimate judicial processes of this sovereign state

Anyone who has seen what drugs do to our society will welcome this news and eagerly wait for sentence to be carried out

Good job to those judges who will make an example of this drug smuggler as a warning to others

:thumbs:

[King Gizzard]

If you're going to be stupid enough to do it in China where it is pretty clear what their laws are then prepare to face the consequences, not that I don't think it's wrong cause I do, but they're an idiot for doing it in the first place

[Jack_]

The sooner this drug smuggler is executed the better

Let's hope our government do not interfere in the legitimate judicial processes of this sovereign state

Anyone who has seen what drugs do to our society will welcome this news and eagerly wait for sentence to be carried out

Good job to those judges who will make an example of this drug smuggler as a warning to others

:thumbs:

Who are you, Rupert Bloody Murdoch?

[arista]

Sticks wants her Dead.


Thats his choice

[Stu]

I wasn't aware 'thou shalt not kill' had a footnote.

Why would anyone 'eagerly await' for the sentence to be carried out? Being complacent with it or supporting it is one thing. What on earth does 'eagerly await' mean?

Will you be getting extra fizzy pop and tuning in your radio early for the big event?

[joeysteele]

I can't imagine there are many people who travel to Indonesia who don't know that smuggling drugs carries the death penalty there. And she was guilty of smuggling a massive amount of drugs.

People who are moaning about short sentences here for other crimes have to remember this is Indonesia, not the UK. You can't equate the two because the judicial systems are vastly different. Indonesia is very clear about its drug smuggling policey and the sentences it carries, and yet people still believe they can beat the system.

I totally go along with this comment. There have been a fair few cases now where it has been widely covered as to the severity of sentencing for smuggling drugs into certain countries carries a very severe penalty for doing so, often the death penalty.

Sadly some people still think they will be above suspicion as to this act and go ahead and try.

I feel sure however,that the sentence will be reduced but she will likely face a heavy jail sentence.
People going to such countries should ensure they steer away completely from being involved in any way as to drug smuggling.
That is really the only safe thing to do.

[Redway]

The sooner this drug smuggler is executed the better

Let's hope our government do not interfere in the legitimate judicial processes of this sovereign state

Anyone who has seen what drugs do to our society will welcome this news and eagerly wait for sentence to be carried out

Good job to those judges who will make an example of this drug smuggler as a warning to others

:thumbs:
You seriously support a system where people are executed for choosing to snort cocaine and do what they want with their lives? People should be able to snort cocaine if they wish and as long as it doesn't affect you then I don't see why anyone should give a damn, quite frankly.

[Stu]

You seriously support a system where people are executed for choosing to snort cocaine and do what they want with their lives? People should be able to snort cocaine if they wish and as long as it doesn't affect you then I don't see why anyone should give a damn, quite frankly.
She was smuggling a million quids worth. Not doing a few lines off a toilet bowl. At least read the story.

[Jack_]

'Eagerly await' :laugh3: that's actually very disturbing. Who eagerly awaits someone's execution? How barbaric.

Sticks wants her Dead.


Thats his choice

You have such a lovely way with words, arista.

[Sticks]

You seriously support a system where people are executed for choosing to snort cocaine and do what they want with their lives? People should be able to snort cocaine if they wish and as long as it doesn't affect you then I don't see why anyone should give a damn, quite frankly.

Tell that to the OAP mugged and left for dead by a drug addict stealing her meagre pension so they can have a fix :mad:

Tell that to the parents who find that drug lords have been making their children in to addicts by pretending that they are sweets.

Tell that to those of us who have come across play areas or communal areas littered with dirty hypodermic needles...

As for thou shalt not kill, it was actually thou shalt not murder, not the same thing. In fact I have heard it argued that the New Testament in Romans 13 can be used to support the death penalty.

[Tom4784]

Tell that to the OAP mugged and left for dead by a drug addict stealing her meagre pension so they can have a fix :mad:

Tell that to the parents who find that drug lords have been making their children in to addicts by pretending that they are sweets.

Tell that to those of us who have come across play areas or communal areas littered with dirty hypodermic needles...

As for thou shalt not kill, it was actually thou shalt not murder, not the same thing. In fact I have heard it argued that the New Testament in Romans 13 can be used to support the death penalty.

I'm pretty sure a saying about Tomatoes (and sometimes potatoes) is appropriate here.

[Redway]

Tell that to the OAP mugged and left for dead by a drug addict stealing her meagre pension so they can have a fix :mad:

Tell that to the parents who find that drug lords have been making their children in to addicts by pretending that they are sweets.

Tell that to those of us who have come across play areas or communal areas littered with dirty hypodermic needles...

As for thou shalt not kill, it was actually thou shalt not murder, not the same thing. In fact I have heard it argued that the New Testament in Romans 13 can be used to support the death penalty.

Killing is wrong. End of story. It's just barbaric (as one person said) and ridiculous. What she did may have been wrong and irresponsible but nobody deserves capital punishment.

[Shaun]

How barbaric.

[Munchkins]

Sorry, this may come across harsh but what a stupid bint. Sh e knew the precautions, she knew what could happen so its her own fault, she shouldn't have done it, just idiotic. Whilst the penalty is harsh, thats the laws there, and thats that.. awful though
Doing this when she has a family too, even worse
but the death penalty is disgusting.. and its an easy way out for most extreme crimes any way (not that this is)

[Stu]

Tell that to the OAP mugged and left for dead by a drug addict stealing her meagre pension so they can have a fix :mad:

Tell that to the parents who find that drug lords have been making their children in to addicts by pretending that they are sweets.

Tell that to those of us who have come across play areas or communal areas littered with dirty hypodermic needles...
Problems that are all propagated by the war on drugs. There are more efficient ways to solve the worlds problems than by shooting people in the head.

I'm not entirely sure your second example actually occurs a whole lot to even be considered a thing.

As for thou shalt not kill, it was actually thou shalt not murder, not the same thing. In fact I have heard it argued that the New Testament in Romans 13 can be used to support the death penalty.
How convenient. What a wonderful book.

Joyless? Sexless? Draconian? Try The Bible.

[Sticks]

And what of justice for those whose lives are destroyed by drugs and drug related crimes?

A line must be drawn in the sand!

[Ammi]

..I'm not sure where killing someone in cold blood brings justice though...killing someone just extinguishes a life, nothing more...there is no 'lesson' to be learned...I doubt people who smuggle drugs will think..'oh, I better not do it anymore..it's quite dangerous'...I can't see it doing a lot for the tourist industry, which they feel is so damaged...she learns no lesson because she ceases to exist and her children lose their mother.....

..her actions might require justice to be called for..but yes, a line has to be drawn....

[Benjamin]

I didn't even know the country bloody existed.

Also find it hilarious that to try and 'save' any sort of image they think they had in the first place, they decide to put a woman to death over this. Logic.

You've never heard of Bali? :conf2:

Beautiful country.

But this lady was carrying drugs, willingly, to another country. Had they been planted my view would be different but, like Livia pointed out, the laws regarding drugs are very clear. Fair enough her children may have been in 'danger' but I don't believe for a second that she couldn't have found a way for someone to help her.

[Shaun]

Bali's not a country f/

[Ammi]

..I don't think there's any doubt she broke the law or that there isn't a consequence to that but it's ok for us to say that there may have been another solution if her children were in danger..we weren't put in that position or had to live through it..it's hardly a 'clear thinking' situation...no one knows how they will react or how far they will go if they're terrified..especially for the safety of their children...her mind must have been in chaos....

...I agree though whatever the circumstances, because of the seriousness of her crime, she must be punished...but in any civilisation, whatever their laws..standing an elderly lady against a wall and firing bullets into her until she is dead is barbaric, pimitive and evil....

[Livia]

She's fifty six. I wouldn't call that "elderly". She's a year older than Madonna and she's out there travelling the world, she's not some frail old grandmother even though the media keep pressing the word "grandmother on to us. She could be a grandmother at 35... or younger... And although I'm not arguing that the death penalty is harsh, I know that is the consequence of getting caught smuggling drugs in Indonesia. Is there anyone on here who has ever been to that part of the world and isn't fully aware of their laws on drug smuggling? She must have known it... they make it very clear.

[Stu]

And what of justice for those whose lives are destroyed by drugs and drug related crimes?

A line must be drawn in the sand!
And what of it? Are you not yourself capable of imagining such middle grounds yourself that you need to beg the question?

People should be allowed do what they want, when they want with their own bodies and minds so long as they don't harm anyone else. If they do harm anyone else then bring the justice.

You can't hold a bag of powder responsible for someone mugging another person. We've waged a war on that bag and have tried to put it in the courts and prisons for decades now and it's not working.

In fact the illegal environment created and sustained by this total exercise in futility has resulted and facilitating numerous dangers and hazards that could be minimized or side stepped entirely by a more rational approach.

So you go about your justice swiftly and fairly. But you leave the drugs out of it. People are the problem.

She's fifty six. I wouldn't call that "elderly". She's a year older than Madonna and she's out there travelling the world, she's not some frail old grandmother even though the media keep pressing the word "grandmother on to us. She could be a grandmother at 35... or younger... And although I'm not arguing that the death penalty is harsh, I know that is the consequence of getting caught smuggling drugs in Indonesia. Is there anyone on here who has ever been to that part of the world and isn't fully aware of their laws on drug smuggling? She must have known it... they make it very clear.
I accept this point.

[cobdo]

You can't hold a bag of powder responsible for someone mugging another person.That bag of powder can make people violent and impairs their ability to reason

[Stu]

You can't hold a bag of powder responsible for someone mugging another person.That bag of powder can make people violent and impairs their ability to reason
So can a range of other stimuli. Let's keep it to the person. It's a whole lot easier.

I've used drugs responsibly in the past. Thousands of people do every weekend. We don't all morph into merciless thugs because we already had a good head on us. The people that indulge in violent acts don't and should be prosecuted accordingly.

Coating the world in bubble wrap so knuckle draggers don't scrape their hands is not the solution.

[cobdo]

So can a range of other stimuli. Let's keep it to the person. It's a whole lot easier.

I've used drugs responsibly in the past. Thousands of people do every weekend. We don't all morph into merciless thugs because we already had a good head on us. The people that indulge in violent acts don't and should be prosecuted accordingly.

Coating the world in bubble wrap so knuckle draggers don't scrape their hands is not the solution.



Very true ,if ya gonna ban drugs then i suppose you have to ban alcohol.

[Ninastar]

Livia. :worship:

[Shasown]

Its dead simple, you do the crime, you do the time.

Regardless of where in the world you are.

[Ammi]

..the woman was naive/stupid, she did wrong..for whatever the reason..if she was terrified and it was to protect her children then how unfortunate...

..I would have thought that to spend 15 years in a Bali prison cell would not only be punishment enough for her and her family, but also send a very strong message to anyone else that might wish to try it...

..but no, let’s shoot her...perhaps it’ll get through to her the seriousness of her crime..she won’t do that again and people will see what a wonderful culture and a great place to visit....



..I’m sorry, I know I’m being stupid and emotional about this but we should remember that it was recommended 15 years imprisonment...they decided to change that because she ‘damaged the image of the tourist industry’...how ironic.....

..if this execution actually happens I doubt anyone will feel a sense of justice....just sickening...


EDIT:.....and to put this into perspective, she was caught smuggling and the drugs didn’t get out into circulation..no one was hurt in her crime...yes they could have been, but they weren’t....there are lots of bad people out there who do actually hurt people, just living their lives and no one was hurt for this woman's crime except her and her family...in my opinion, that's enough.....

[AnnieK]

..the woman was naive/stupid, she did wrong..for whatever the reason..if she was terrified and it was to protect her children then how unfortunate...

..I would have thought that to spend 15 years in a Bali prison cell would not only be punishment enough for her and her family, but also send a very strong message to anyone else that might wish to try it...

..but no, let’s shoot her...perhaps it’ll get through to her the seriousness of her crime..she won’t do that again and people will see what a wonderful culture and a great place to visit....



..I’m sorry, I know I’m being stupid and emotional about this but we should remember that it was recommended 15 years imprisonment...they decided to change that because she ‘damaged the image of the tourist industry’...how ironic.....

..if this execution actually happens I doubt anyone will feel a sense of justice....just sickening...

I am sure her sentence will be commuted to 15 years Ammi....in my mind , this turn around by the judge is more about showing the world what they can do but I doubt very much they will do it. There is the appeals process and clemency and I am sure our Foreign office will be involved too.

Whether she was naive or spinning a very good story about her children being threatened we will never know

[Ammi]

..and this decision wasn’t made because of the danger and seriousness of those drugs on the street..it was made because of potential damage to the tourist industry of Bali...that’s what we’re told so that’s what we can believe...there is no consideration or value for life in this...anyone’s life....not hers or anyone's that could have been affected...

[Livia]

I am sure her sentence will be commuted to 15 years Ammi....in my mind , this turn around by the judge is more about showing the world what they can do but I doubt very much they will do it. There is the appeals process and clemency and I am sure our Foreign office will be involved too.

Whether she was naive or spinning a very good story about her children being threatened we will never know

There isn't much that the FCO can do, really. They can't tell another country that their legal system is wrong, even thought they state categorically that they are against the death penalty. They can negotiate, but there's no guarantee they will be able to help. Apparently this woman is one of 12 Brits facing the death penalty around the world.

The death sentence for this crime has been in place there for years, it's not something they thought up for this particular woman, so the intimation that it's for the sake of the tourist industry is hard to believe. And all the stuff about her giving them information in order to lighten her own sentence might just be BS. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has been arrested on the strength of her evidence.

[MTVN]

As Ammi points out though, carrying out this crime doesn't necessitate the death penalty being given, the fact that even the prosecution only pushed for a 15 year jail term suggests that death by firing squad could still be considered an unfair and disproportionate punishment, even by the standards of the Indonesian justice system

[Livia]

It's the judge who has the final say when it comes to sentencing, not the prosecution; they can suggest a sentence but that's all. She was caught in possession of drugs and found guilty of attempting to smuggle them in to Bali. The sentence for that is death. The defence claimed (and this was obviously accepted by the prosectution) there were mitigating circumstances because she named names. Perhaps no prosecutions were forthcoming on the strength of that evidence, I don't know. She'll be allowed to appeal, but only her legal team will be able to advise her if it's even worth it. It's all guesswork of course, none of us know the actual details of the trial.

[Sticks]

Only her execution will send the message out that drugs kill and destroy lives, and I suspect they will execute her to show that the west has no right to dictate to them, and rightly so.

I have more sympathy with victims of crime

The law is the law

[Redway]

Only her execution will send the message out that drugs kill and destroy lives, and I suspect they will execute her to show that the west has no right to dictate to them, and rightly so.

I have more sympathy with victims of crime

The law is the law

The death penalty is not a deterrent and if nothing else it's retarded and heartless. No matter what she did, she doesn't deserve to be killed - nobody does.

[Stu]

Only her execution will send the message out that drugs kill and destroy lives.
Would you be in favor of a similar judicial approach in the U.K., regardless of possibility? I have had drugs in my back pocket before. What sort of punishment would you see as fitting for me had I ever been caught?

Drugs don't kill and destroy lives. [I]Some people destroy on drugs. I know plenty of casual drug users and not one of them has ever destroyed a life. A few that I know will to be fair wake up stupefied and twenty five with nothing going on in their lives but that is their problem. Blaming an ongoing failure of a life on the chemicals you imbibe is essentially abdicating yourself of any personal responsibility. It's a lazy and useless attitude.

The illegal environment created and sustained by this total exercise in futility has resulted and facilitating numerous dangers and hazards that could be minimized or side stepped entirely by a more rational approach. So you go about your justice swiftly and fairly. But you leave the drugs out of it. People are the problem.

Yeah I'm copy and pasting, now. We will kill her to show drugs kill. They will kill her to show drug laws kill. The western world will progress to a safer, more liberal more hygienic drug marketplace and nothing will stop it.

[arista]

It's the judge who has the final say when it comes to sentencing, not the prosecution; they can suggest a sentence but that's all. She was caught in possession of drugs and found guilty of attempting to smuggle them in to Bali. The sentence for that is death. The defence claimed (and this was obviously accepted by the prosectution) there were mitigating circumstances because she named names. Perhaps no prosecutions were forthcoming on the strength of that evidence, I don't know. She'll be allowed to appeal, but only her legal team will be able to advise her if it's even worth it. It's all guesswork of course, none of us know the actual details of the trial.


Takes 10 years
they say.

[Niall]

It sickens me to the core that the death penalty is still in such wide usage across the world. I feel so sorry for this woman, if she's had mental health issues surely the Indonesian courts should reconsider? It's so harsh a punishment to give someone.

I really do hope she's given a reprieve or just a regular jail sentence. This is just disgusting..

[Jake.]

:worship:

[Sticks]

This wretched drug smuggler has now lost a case to get our government to fund an appeal, which she can not afford


See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21272490)

This is excellent news as it means she will be unable to appeal and now will definitely be executed as an example to others

A triumph for justice, especially of those who are victims of drug fuelled crime :dance:

[Ammi]

..I hope that humanity prevails and she doesn't get the death sentence..it's totally barbaric and as outrageous as some of the other punishments handed out by certain countries....

Cases could include incidents where a Briton was "sentenced to 30 lashes because they are gay - or a sentence for driving a car because you are a woman".

[arista]

This wretched drug smuggler has now lost a case to get our government to fund an appeal, which she can not afford


See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21272490)

This is excellent news as it means she will be unable to appeal and now will definitely be executed as an example to others

A triumph for justice, especially of those who are victims of drug fuelled crime :dance:



Except no one has be Executed for many years.
Infact they are think of getting rid of it now.

Ref: Ch4News , SkyNewsHD , Ch5News

[Me. I Am Salman]

sad news.

[InOne]

I guess the moral of the story is don't attempt to smuggle drugs.

[Apple202]

This wretched drug smuggler has now lost a case to get our government to fund an appeal, which she can not afford


See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21272490)

This is excellent news as it means she will be unable to appeal and now will definitely be executed as an example to others

A triumph for justice, especially of those who are victims of drug fuelled crime :dance:

oh dear oh dear oh dear

[Redway]

This wretched drug smuggler has now lost a case to get our government to fund an appeal, which she can not afford


See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21272490)

This is excellent news as it means she will be unable to appeal and now will definitely be executed as an example to others

A triumph for justice, especially of those who are victims of drug fuelled crime :dance:

:bored:

[Sticks]

sad news.

Only for evil drug smuggling scum!

Good news for those who have been victims of drug related crimes, like the pensioner mugged and beaten up for her meagre pension so some junkie can get another fix. :mad:

[Redway]

Only for evil drug smuggling scum!

Good news for those who have been victims of drug related crimes, like the pensioner mugged and beaten up for her meagre pension so some junkie can get another fix. :mad:

What about all the alcohol-related crimes and does this not apply to the countless amount of domestic abuse cases, for instance, that have been alcohol-fueled? Or drink driving?

[Kazanne]

What about all the alcohol-related crimes and does this not apply to the countless amount of domestic abuse cases, for instance, that have been alcohol-fueled? Or drink driving?

Very good point Redway,so much damage and destruction done by alcohol related crimes,and Yes this lady did wrong,but death? really is too extreme.

[Sticks]

And I was at a council meeting on Monday where we had police officers detailing how they place objections to establishments trying to sell liquor.

The fundamental difference is that liquor is currently legal, drugs are not! In some countries liquor is just as outlawed.

For the record I am teetotal

[Jack_]

This must be one of the most disgusting cases of injustice that I have ever seen. And effectively cheering and getting excited at a woman's impending execution is perhaps the most disturbing thing I have ever seen on this forum. There are no words.

[Jack_]

Has the thought ever crossed your mind Sticks, that perhaps we should focus on and begin to try and investigate and understand why such crimes happen in the first place? Why people turn to drugs and drug-related crime? Instead of all this reactionary 'hang the bastard! chop his balls off!!!! die *****!!!!!!!!' nonsense that doesn't actually discover the true causes of such crime. Just an idea.

[Redway]

Very good point Redway,so much damage and destruction done by alcohol related crimes,and Yes this lady did wrong,but death? really is too extreme.
Thank you :).
And I was at a council meeting on Monday where we had police officers detailing how they place objections to establishments trying to sell liquor.

The fundamental difference is that liquor is currently legal, drugs are not! In some countries liquor is just as outlawed.

For the record I am teetotal

So the fact that alcohol's legal renders it totally harmless and safe to use, does it? I think you'll find that alcohol is in the top 5 of most harmful drugs - legal or illegal - and the status of all these other substances absolutely does not mean that they should have that status and you're coming across as quite ignorant on this issue with your wacky, dodgy and quite frankly sickening views on drugs.

Bottom is alcohol does cause more damage than a lot of other substances and whether it's legal or illegal is completely irrelevant and bares no relevance to this at all. At all. You can spin it all you like but it's the truth.

I'm not denying that cocaine's a very harmful substance - and not condoning this lady's behaviour - but locking someone up for life is harsh enough. Killing someone over it takes the piss and it's retarded and I'm not sure which is more worrying - the rules or the fact that someone is actually eager for someone to die.

[Redway]

Has the thought ever crossed your mind Sticks, that perhaps we should focus on and begin to try and investigate and understand why such crimes happen in the first place? Why people turn to drugs and drug-related crime? Instead of all this reactionary 'hang the bastard! chop his balls off!!!! die *****!!!!!!!!' nonsense that doesn't actually discover the true causes of such crime. Just an idea.

Agree with this. A lady smuggling millions of pounds' worth of cocaine is an extreme case but normally there are underlying reasons that drive them to it and these people who are so in favour of the barbaric current drugs laws seldom consider the fact there are emotional issues and misfortunate events, etc, that could have driven them to take the drug in the first place. It's just like why people turn to alcohol in a lot of cases ... only with illegal substances and a lot of people sadly tend to think illegal = worthy of imprisonment and would rather these people are kept in cages rather than given the help they need (if they want it).

It's ridiculous.

[Sticks]

When I was at university we heard the sad case of a 12 year old who died after taking one ecstasy tablet.

Drugs are not harmless

Those who gave that girl the tablet should have been done for murder

[Redway]

And how many people are killed a year with alcohol? I know that drugs can potentially be very dangerous but the same criticisms apply to legal drugs, such as alcohol and tobacco, and somehow I don't see much prohibition with any of these substances?

Legal does not = safe and illegal does not = dangerous (and vice versa).

[Jack_]

And how many people are killed a year with alcohol? I know that drugs can potentially be very dangerous but the same criticisms apply to legal drugs, such as alcohol and tobacco, and somehow I don't see much prohibition with any of these substances?

Legal does not = safe and illegal does not = dangerous (and vice versa).

Exactly. But of course the almighty powers above know best...

Let's just believe what we're told and not think for ourselves.

[Redway]

Exactly. But of course the almighty powers above know best...

Let's just believe what we're told and not think for ourselves.

Exactly. This hypocritical "drugs are bad for you because they just are ok" notion is for those who don't actually think for themselves and believe anything just because the government approves/disapproves of it and to be for such an ineffective, ridiculous and by and large unsupported approach because TPTB say so is ignorant.

Of course, the government has always been right with the approach to this topic - such as prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s? Somehow that doesn't get a mention.

[Jesus.]

This wretched drug smuggler has now lost a case to get our government to fund an appeal, which she can not afford


See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21272490)

This is excellent news as it means she will be unable to appeal and now will definitely be executed as an example to others

A triumph for justice, especially of those who are victims of drug fuelled crime :dance:

I fully agree. I love it when when people are murdered, and it's a damn shame there isn't more of it.

[Jack_]

I fully agree. I love it when when people are murdered, and it's a damn shame there isn't more of it.

:joker:

I think they should televise it. Let's all sit around and watch this nasty woman get her comeuppance. Actually, ***** it, let's have a Bank Holiday to celebrate it as well. Get the party poppers out and throw a nationwide banquet. I'm sure Sky News will have a field day in covering the fun and frolics of this wonderful day.

[Slevin]

Very good point Redway,so much damage and destruction done by alcohol related crimes,and Yes this lady did wrong,but death? really is too extreme.
i agree. she deserves punishment but not death. cant believe someone is jumping for joy over this. f'ing disgusting.

[Apple202]

Sticks didn't you say you were a mod on a forum?


D:

[Marcus.]

Sticks didn't you say you were a mod on a forum?


D:

are they like

[Kizzy]

These are laws of another country, if you go there and break the law you have to suffer the consequenses.
No matter how severe, we all make choices in life...she made hers.

[Redway]

These are laws of another country, if you go there and break the law you have to suffer the consequenses.
No matter how severe, we all make choices in life...she made hers.

Her decision was wrong and short-sighted, sure, but killing is inhumane and far more wrong than smuggling coke. Give her a prison sentence but I don't see the merit in murdering someone in cold blood over it. Doesn't that make you worse than her and the objective thus obliterated? I'd have thought that making choices in life wouldn't result in the end of it?

[Jack_]

Sandiford wept as judges handed down the sentence, covering her face with a scarf as she left the courtroom to return to prison. She earlier told the court she was forced into taking the drugs into the country by gangsters who were threatening to hurt one of her children, saying "the lives of my children were in danger".

In her witness statement earlier in the trial, Sandiford expressed regret for her actions. "I would like to begin by apologising to the Republic of Indonesia and the Indonesian people for my involvement. I would never have become involved in something like this but the lives of my children were in danger and I felt I had to protect them," she said.

During the trial, her lawyer read out a statement from her son that said: "I love my mother very much and have a very close relationship with her. I know that she would do anything to protect me. I cannot imagine what I would do if she was sentenced to death in relation to these charges."

Reprieve, a legal action charity, said Sandiford was a vulnerable target for drugs traffickers, pointing to an expert report from Dr Jennifer Fleetwood that was put before the court. Fleetwood concluded that Sandiford's vulnerability would have made her an ideal target for drugs traffickers, noting that: "There is … evidence to suggest that a trafficker would seek someone who was vulnerable. Having reviewed extracts from Lindsay's medical records I know that Lindsay has a history of mental health issues … This may have unfortunately made her an attractive target for threats, manipulation and coercion."

Harriet McCulloch, an investigator at Reprieve, said Sandiford maintained that she only agreed to carry the package to Bali after receiving threats against the lives of her family. "She is clearly not a drug kingpin – she has no money to pay for a lawyer, for the travel costs of defence witnesses or even for essentials like food and water," she said. "She has co-operated fully with the Indonesian authorities but has been sentenced to death while the gang operating in the UK, Thailand and Indonesia remain free to target other vulnerable people."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/22/indonesia-sentences-briton-death-drugs

Vile. Totally vile. And people support this punishment?

[CharlieO]

If she didn't want it she shouldn't have smuggled drugs, simple.

[joeysteele]

She must have known the harsh penalties for smuggling drugs in that area. I do hope she does not have to be killed but I do think she has to serve a extremely long prison sentence and I also,sorry to say, don't see any reason why the Birtish Govt,in other words the British Taxpayer should fund her appeal either.

I am sure our Govt could though write and make an appeal for mercy for her and I still think that would likely be enough to at least get her death sentence revoked.

[Kizzy]

Her decision was wrong and short-sighted, sure, but killing is inhumane and far more wrong than smuggling coke. Give her a prison sentence but I don't see the merit in murdering someone in cold blood over it. Doesn't that make you worse than her and the objective thus obliterated? I'd have thought that making choices in life wouldn't result in the end of it?

We in the UK have chosen to take that stance, but we can't dictate laws to other countries.
If our citizens go there and break the law then they must take responsibility.
See the devestation drugs has caused this family?

[Redway]

We in the UK have chosen to take that stance, but we can't dictate laws to other countries.
If our citizens go there and break the law then they must take responsibility.
See the devestation drugs has caused this family?

And you don't think being murdered is going to cause the family even more devastation?

[InOne]

It's not like she's being killed for something she didn't do. The fact is she commited a crime and she is a criminal. Just because she's a British Citizen doesn't mean she has the right to be above the law in another country. She knew what she was doing and got caught, end of. There's plenty more people to worry about than some middle aged drug pusher.

[Kizzy]

And you don't think being murdered is going to cause the family even more devastation?

You have to move away from this 'murdered' veiw, it is justice in this country.
It dosen't matter what our opinion is.

[Nedusa]

You have to move away from this 'murdered' veiw, it is justice in this country.
It dosen't matter what our opinion is.

You can move away from this view if you like but it's still murder albeit state sponsored. I don't believe in the Death Penalty for murderers so you can imagine how I feel about the possibility of this Mother being executed for smuggling in a few ounces of drugs. Imprison her if you think this will teach her a lesson, but please don't think it's OK to put her up against a wall and execute her.

Utterly barbaric and disgusting in this day and age... Shame on this country

[Niamh.]

You can move away from this view if you like but it's still murder albeit state sponsored. I don't believe in the Death Penalty for murderers so you can imagine how I feel about the possibility of this Mother being executed for smuggling in a few ounces of drugs. Imprison her if you think this will teach her a lesson, but please don't think it's OK to put her up against a wall and execute her.

Utterly barbaric and disgusting in this day and age... Shame on this country

:worship:

Well said.

[Stu]

When I was at university we heard the sad case of a 12 year old who died after taking one ecstasy tablet.
No doubt contaminated as a result of the prohibition that you support. To the best of my knowledge pure MDMA has not killed anybody who has not been foolish to overdose, dehydrate or overhydrate themselves.

I notice you ignored my last post. I'd like a response to all of it.

[AnnieK]

You can move away from this view if you like but it's still murder albeit state sponsored. I don't believe in the Death Penalty for murderers so you can imagine how I feel about the possibility of this Mother being executed for smuggling in a few ounces of drugs. Imprison her if you think this will teach her a lesson, but please don't think it's OK to put her up against a wall and execute her.

Utterly barbaric and disgusting in this day and age... Shame on this country

Whilst I agree with the sentiment that it is state sponsored murder and the death sentence is extreme, it is a little more than "couple of ounces" of coke she was caught smuggling....

[Kizzy]

It was only 2 generations back we had 'state sponsored murder'.
She was not carrying a couple of ounces it was worth millions.

[Nedusa]

It was only 2 generations back we had 'state sponsored murder'.
She was not carrying a couple of ounces it was worth millions.

The amount she smuggled isn't really the issue, the fact she is going to be murdered for doing it appalls me. We stopped executing convicted murderers in the 1960's but this country thinks its ok to execute someone who has not killed anyone.

Hopefully she will get the sentence commuted to a lengthy prison term.

[Kizzy]

The amount she smuggled isn't really the issue, the fact she is going to be murdered for doing it appalls me. We stopped executing convicted murderers in the 1960's but this country thinks its ok to execute someone who has not killed anyone.

Hopefully she will get the sentence commuted to a lengthy prison term.

It is the issue....
They take a hard line (no pun intended) on drug related crime, they see those who transport vast amounts of class A substances catalysts for what we consider more serious crimes maybe?
Sex trafficking, money laundering, murder and terrorism...
I hope like you that they don't make an example of this woman.

[Sticks]

No doubt contaminated as a result of the prohibition that you support. To the best of my knowledge pure MDMA has not killed anybody who has not been foolish to overdose, dehydrate or overhydrate themselves.

I notice you ignored my last post. I'd like a response to all of it.

If I recall it was a pure ecstasy tablet, although deliberate contamination is another point against drug use.

These compounds are banned for good medical reasons, even cannabis will cause long term health problems to users (See here) (http://www.talktofrank.com/mess-with-your-mind). As to Alcohol and tobacco, those compounds, none of which I indulge in, were effectively grandfathered in, and if they were introduced today it is likely, with tobacco at least, they would be treated the same as illegal narcotics

As to your question, which is a few pages back, which one took as rhetorical, that is not an option while we remain a member of the European Union, so would be pointless to consider that measure to deter and make an example of those who persist in this evil trade.

This execution, when it goes ahead will be a warning to all on the periphery of this evil trade that this is how seriously we take this menace.

[Ammi]

..Londsay Sandiford is a victim in this as well..the lives of her children were threatened, Julian Ponder, who was said to be the 'mastermind' was sentenced to 6 years imprisonment and the recommended sentence for her was 15 years..the judge gave the death penalty because he didn't want Bali's tourist image damaged..that was the reason he gave...it had nothing to do with concern for these drugs on the street...

..to execute her will achieve nothing as there will also be another 'victim' like her and is barbaric in the extreme..a 15 year term in a Bali prison, is sufficient to 'teach' anyone a lesson, Lindsay herself and anyone else in the future...

[arista]

..Londsay Sandiford is a victim in this as well..the lives of her children were threatened, Julian Ponder, who was said to be the 'mastermind' was sentenced to 6 years imprisonment and the recommended sentence for her was 15 years..the judge gave the death penalty because he didn't want Bali's tourist image damaged..that was the reason he gave...it had nothing to do with concern for these drugs on the street...

..to execute her will achieve nothing as there will also be another 'victim' like her and is barbaric in the extreme..a 15 year term in a Bali prison, is sufficient to 'teach' anyone a lesson, Lindsay herself and anyone else in the future...


They Wont

[Stu]

These compounds are banned for good medical reasons
No, they are not. They were banned for poor medical reasoning and out of a knee jerk reaction to fresh experiences of the mind that were misunderstood or wrongly perceived to be horrifying. They continue to remain illegal because it has built up in to a sturdy zeitgeist that no politician want to step out from the shadows to break. Politicians are typically weak people.

If medical reasoning mattered at all then the American government would have listened to Judge Francis Young - a DEA man - in 1988 when he declared Cannabis to be one of the safest therapeutic substances known to man.

If medical reasoning mattered the British government would have listened to Professor David Nutt - the then chair of the governments own Advisory Committee on Misuse of Drugs - when he declared Ecstasy to be safer than hose riding and when he repeatedly called for a relaxing of soft drug laws. Cannabis is currently ranked to be of equal danger to base amphetamines in British drug legislation. That is not scientific. That's science and policy on it's knees in the mud.

If medical reasoning mattered Professor Nutt would not have been unceremoniously sacked from his position. Governments would take their scientific advice first hand from unbiased scientific bodies when dictating drug laws and not from pressure groups with vested interests because the woman outside with the placard had a son who knocked back too many pills on top of a crate of alcohol and went sick then dead.

Medical reasoning does not matter.

even cannabis will cause long term health problems to users
Why are you using the word 'will'? Chances are Cannabis won't cause you long term health problems at all. Are you being facetious for the sake of it because you personally don't like an altered mind and prefer to stay in and check out a good old execution instead?

I have talked at length on this forum for a number of years now about the emerging trend of demonizing the mental state of Cannabis intoxication and it's purported effects on mental health. I was engaged in debate on topics like the ratio of cannabinoids in the make up of the plant years before the papers caught up with it [some still haven't].

The practical invention and mystical attributes given to "skunk weed" have created this weird sort of fantasy land for journalists who now have carte blanche to hanker back to the days of Reefer Madness and talk about smoking pot as if it's a trip down the rabbit hole with undertones of demonic possession.

Some are only coming around to and respecting the fact now that these mental health effects are not only blown out of proportion but are symptoms of the illegal environment the plant inhabits. It's not the strength per say of Cannabis that is sometimes dangerous but the exact chemical make up of the plant. It's easier to just say it's stronger and scarier than ever, I know.

The trend towards indoor grows where Cannabis is cultivated guerrilla style hard and fast in an ultra artificial environment by crime gangs who don't respect the product has resulted in THC enriched Cannabis that has all but had the CBD bred out of it. CBD is Cannabidiol. It's the true magic of Cannabis that is only coming to light in recent times.

Cannabidiol and other Cannabinoids like it in the Cannabis plant play a huge, very important role in mediating the effects of THC [tetrahydrocannabinol, the stuff that gets you groovy]. They round out the intoxication of Cannabis, infuse it with it's medical properties and protect against THC giving the brain too much of a kicking.

Cannabidiol is an [I]anti psychotic, anti anxiety agent. It has all but been bred out of most commercial strains of the ganj because of the illegal marketplace it exists in. Because of the zeitgeist of cowardice and anti science that you support.

So it's not just a question of strength. I'm regularly getting great hash that is far stronger than most of the mass market variations of haze and cheese that are smoking up the marketplace on this side of the pond but it's infinitely relaxing.

So in essence this mental health scare is an overreaction to a market trend created and preserved by Cannabis's illegality in the first place. And that is without me even going into sprayed and contaminated Cannabis.

As to your question, which is a few pages back, which one took as rhetorical, that is not an option while we remain a member of the European Union, so would be pointless to consider that measure to deter and make an example of those who persist in this evil trade.
Of course it wasn't rhetorical. I was pretty passionate in my insistence that you grace me with an answer regardless of the hypothetical nature of it. You could be brave and just do that.

One would assume you would support a similar system of judicial catastrophe on British shores. I would like to know as an honest, up front recreational drug user who has had drugs in his back pocket before where I would stand and what punishment would befit me had I ever been caught.

Heck I grew three plants on my windowsill once. Surely I should be eligible for a Sunday matinee execution to brighten your day up?

[Stu]

Totally wrote all of that baked. Go Cognitive Liberty!

[Redway]

Stu. :worship:

[Sticks]

With regards to the health effects these were comprehensively dealt with by Professor Susan Greenfield in her 1994 series of lectures at the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures for young people. She covered a range of narcotics including cannabis. This research informs such sites like Talk to Frank which I linked to earlier.

With regards to penalties for illegal use of narcotics, there is a range, from penalties for mere possession to those who produce and traffic this poison. This woman is to be executed, and she will be, was convicted of the most severest offences that of trafficking a large volume of class A drugs. The reasons she did it are totally irrelevant, there is no justification for what she did.

Her execution will send a clear message out to all who partake in this evil trade.

Meanwhile is it right to advocate potential actions that is infract the criminal law on a forum such as this? Could this not be a violation of terms and service of vBulletin who provides this forum. Can the moderators please give us a ruling on this as we do not want to cause this forum to be suspended?

[Ammi]

..she didn't traffick it though..she was caught...no drugs she carried will be out on the street...nothing will change by her death...except maybe damage the Bali tourist industry...

[Stu]

Well that's me told.

Kidding.

[Kizzy]

Why has this turned into yet another pro cannabis rant? ...
Seems it is ok the champion the opinion of one medical expert if they happen to mirror your personal view.
Though the numerous medical trials, papers and testaments from ex addicts count for nothing?
To return to the topic, this woman could at any time have sought help if she were being pressured or threatened.

[Stu]

Seems it is ok the champion the opinion of one medical expert if they happen to mirror your personal view.

I champion the opinion of lots of medical experts. Because lots of them agree with me. Lots and lots and lots of them. Plenty of credible ones. The former chair of the governments own advisory council is a biggie, though. He's a good man to have on our side.

I have detailed time and time again now how the dangers of Cannabis are either created, facilitated and or exacerbated by it's illegality. If you want to tackle the points I made in my wall of text above you're more than welcome to but I'm not getting into the same pathetic spiral with you as I did last time where you avoided specifics, cherry picked arguments and in general responded with blanket platitudes.

I'm only willing to engage with those who are willing to engage with me. That's more than fair.

Have your topic. The Cannabis argument I gave stemmed from a general debate on the judicial systems stance on drugs here and abroad. It was completely within the context of the topic and I'll raise it again if I feel like it.

[Kizzy]

You failed to acknowledge any data I supplied you last time, please don't claim any intellectual superiority for your half baked pseudoscience you post.
Fine take this thread off topic if you must, I haven't the inclination to discuss this again.

[Stu]

You failed to acknowledge any data I supplied you last time, please don't claim any intellectual superiority for your half baked pseudoscience you post.
Fine take this thread off topic if you must, I haven't the inclination to discuss this again.
That data I recall was a single link to a single study. I don't play link trading games. It's a long, frivolous exercise in futility. I enjoy engaging with someone who can actually talk. People who are educated enough on a subject to actually post themselves. I made lots of long, long arguments that you completely avoided or thought you could somehow magically make disappear by lazily Googling a single study on the subject. A study which my posts before that addressed in detail. You failed to adequately respond to any of it.

Half baked pseudoscience? You're damn right I'm claiming intellectual superiority over you. I've shot better fish in bigger barrels.

[joeysteele]

No, they are not. They were banned for poor medical reasoning and out of a knee jerk reaction to fresh experiences of the mind that were misunderstood or wrongly perceived to be horrifying. They continue to remain illegal because it has built up in to a sturdy zeitgeist that no politician want to step out from the shadows to break. Politicians are typically weak people.

If medical reasoning mattered at all then the American government would have listened to Judge Francis Young - a DEA man - in 1988 when he declared Cannabis to be one of the safest therapeutic substances known to man.

If medical reasoning mattered the British government would have listened to Professor David Nutt - the then chair of the governments own Advisory Committee on Misuse of Drugs - when he declared Ecstasy to be safer than hose riding and when he repeatedly called for a relaxing of soft drug laws. Cannabis is currently ranked to be of equal danger to base amphetamines in British drug legislation. That is not scientific. That's science and policy on it's knees in the mud.

If medical reasoning mattered Professor Nutt would not have been unceremoniously sacked from his position. Governments would take their scientific advice first hand from unbiased scientific bodies when dictating drug laws and not from pressure groups with vested interests because the woman outside with the placard had a son who knocked back too many pills on top of a crate of alcohol and went sick then dead.

Medical reasoning does not matter.


Why are you using the word 'will'? Chances are Cannabis won't cause you long term health problems at all. Are you being facetious for the sake of it because you personally don't like an altered mind and prefer to stay in and check out a good old execution instead?

I have talked at length on this forum for a number of years now about the emerging trend of demonizing the mental state of Cannabis intoxication and it's purported effects on mental health. I was engaged in debate on topics like the ratio of cannabinoids in the make up of the plant years before the papers caught up with it [some still haven't].

The practical invention and mystical attributes given to "skunk weed" have created this weird sort of fantasy land for journalists who now have carte blanche to hanker back to the days of Reefer Madness and talk about smoking pot as if it's a trip down the rabbit hole with undertones of demonic possession.

Some are only coming around to and respecting the fact now that these mental health effects are not only blown out of proportion but are symptoms of the illegal environment the plant inhabits. It's not the strength per say of Cannabis that is sometimes dangerous but the exact chemical make up of the plant. It's easier to just say it's stronger and scarier than ever, I know.

The trend towards indoor grows where Cannabis is cultivated guerrilla style hard and fast in an ultra artificial environment by crime gangs who don't respect the product has resulted in THC enriched Cannabis that has all but had the CBD bred out of it. CBD is Cannabidiol. It's the true magic of Cannabis that is only coming to light in recent times.

Cannabidiol and other Cannabinoids like it in the Cannabis plant play a huge, very important role in mediating the effects of THC [tetrahydrocannabinol, the stuff that gets you groovy]. They round out the intoxication of Cannabis, infuse it with it's medical properties and protect against THC giving the brain too much of a kicking.

Cannabidiol is an [I]anti psychotic, anti anxiety agent. It has all but been bred out of most commercial strains of the ganj because of the illegal marketplace it exists in. Because of the zeitgeist of cowardice and anti science that you support.

So it's not just a question of strength. I'm regularly getting great hash that is far stronger than most of the mass market variations of haze and cheese that are smoking up the marketplace on this side of the pond but it's infinitely relaxing.

So in essence this mental health scare is an overreaction to a market trend created and preserved by Cannabis's illegality in the first place. And that is without me even going into sprayed and contaminated Cannabis.


Of course it wasn't rhetorical. I was pretty passionate in my insistence that you grace me with an answer regardless of the hypothetical nature of it. You could be brave and just do that.

One would assume you would support a similar system of judicial catastrophe on British shores. I would like to know as an honest, up front recreational drug user who has had drugs in his back pocket before where I would stand and what punishment would befit me had I ever been caught.

Heck I grew three plants on my windowsill once. Surely I should be eligible for a Sunday matinee execution to brighten your day up?

Really impressed with your post above Stu. It contains in my view anyway some very relevant points.
I do agree with your view and analysis as to cannabis,I have never taken it myself but have come across its better qualities too,as to pain relief and it is also considered a rather neutral drug as to major organs of the body too.
I would certainly support it being de-criminalised.
I do want to express that you made a very deep and interesting post to read though, from start to finish.

As to this Woman, I really hope she does not face the death penalty and I also don't think she will.
I feel as sure as I can that there will be some mercy shown and that she wil end up serving a long prison sentence which will be far from pleasant at all over there.
I do hope though it is another lesson as to how these nations will come down heavily on someone who gets involved in any smuggling attempts of drugs in their country.

Here at home in the UK though, even groups of MPs are calling for certain drugs to be de-criminalised and the whole drugs issue to be looked at again.
I also believe that day will come too and so it should.

[Stu]

I appreciate that.

[Kizzy]

That data I recall was a single link to a single study. I don't play link trading games. It's a long, frivolous exercise in futility. I enjoy engaging with someone who can actually talk. People who are educated enough on a subject to actually post themselves. I made lots of long, long arguments that you completely avoided or thought you could somehow magically make disappear by lazily Googling a single study on the subject. A study which my posts before that addressed in detail. You failed to adequately respond to any of it.

Half baked pseudoscience? You're damn right I'm claiming intellectual superiority over you. I've shot better fish in bigger barrels.

It was several studies on the topic actually, as it is pointed out regularly my opinion is invalid as I am not a professional in the subject.
With respect stu neither are you.
You can begin with the insults if you wish it does not change my position, neither does it make your points anymore valid.
Do you have an opinion on the discussion here?

[Stu]

It was several studies on the topic actually, as it is pointed out regularly my opinion is invalid as I am not a professional in the subject.
With respect stu neither are you.
You can begin with the insults if you wish it does not change my position, neither does it make your points anymore valid.
Do you have an opinion on the discussion here?
Of course I do. I posted plenty about it already.

[Redway]

It was several studies on the topic actually, as it is pointed out regularly my opinion is invalid as I am not a professional in the subject.
With respect stu neither are you.
You can begin with the insults if you wish it does not change my position, neither does it make your points anymore valid.
Do you have an opinion on the discussion here?

To be fair, you don't need to be a professional to realise that the current drug laws are simply not working and people have referred you countless times to case studies, such as Amsterdam and Portugal and it seems to be working over there.

If you genuinely support a system where people are put behind bars for doing what they want with themselves, then you really do have absolutely no knowledge about the topic and just believing what the biased media tells you. How about putting that aside for a moment and doing your own research without putting a spin on it?

[Kizzy]

To be fair, you don't need to be a professional to realise that the current drug laws are simply not working and people have referred you countless times to case studies, such as Amsterdam and Portugal and it seems to be working over there.

If you genuinely support a system where people are put behind bars for doing what they want with themselves, then you really do have absolutely no knowledge about the topic and just believing what the biased media tells you. How about putting that aside for a moment and doing your own research without putting a spin on it?

Please stop, I don't wish to be drawn into another debate on my opinion on drug laws in the UK, US or Bali thankyou.

[Benjamin]

The amount she smuggled isn't really the issue, the fact she is going to be murdered for doing it appalls me. We stopped executing convicted murderers in the 1960's but this country thinks its ok to execute someone who has not killed anyone.

Hopefully she will get the sentence commuted to a lengthy prison term.

Unfortunately that is that country's law system. Not that I agree with it, but if you go into a country that has that as punishment and commit a crime that can carry that sentence then that is your own fualt.

[Nedusa]

..Londsay Sandiford is a victim in this as well..the lives of her children were threatened, Julian Ponder, who was said to be the 'mastermind' was sentenced to 6 years imprisonment and the recommended sentence for her was 15 years..the judge gave the death penalty because he didn't want Bali's tourist image damaged..that was the reason he gave...it had nothing to do with concern for these drugs on the street...

..to execute her will achieve nothing as there will also be another 'victim' like her and is barbaric in the extreme..a 15 year term in a Bali prison, is sufficient to 'teach' anyone a lesson, Lindsay herself and anyone else in the future...

Well said, yes I agree the execution of this mother is a purely politically motivated event. She is being sacrificed on the altar of political correctness and good tourist ratings. The punishment in this instance far exceeds the crime and should not be tolerated by any modern just society..!!!

I'm pretty sure she will get this sentence commuted to a prison sentence but the original death sentence should never have been passed...!!

[Ammi]

.... Anders Behring Breivik was sentenced to 21 years imprisonment for mercilessly slaughtering 77 people, and I know that different countries have their own penalties but it doesn’t make them right or ‘just’..justice isn't being served here, only an example being made......and just as they have made their judgement, then so will the rest of the world at Bali and their inhumanity....it seems that civilisation hasn’t moved on at all in that ‘beautiful’ tourist spot....

....while the drug barons will still get their drugs out on the street...there will always be another 'Lindsay'....they're very disposable....

[Nedusa]

I know it's hard to appreciate the massive differences between the two countries ie Bali and Norway. To kill no one and get the death penalty versus killing over 70 people and NOT getting the death penalty.... What does this say about either country,,?

[Sticks]

Bali has drawn a line in the sand about drugs.

I believe this drug smuggler WILL be executed, to send a clear message out. My sympathies are with those blighted by drug related crimes. Where I live I have come across abandoned hypodermic needles, where children could have been.

As for Norway, that is a different subject for a different thread, so please do not hijack this thread.

[Nedusa]

Bali has drawn a line in the sand about drugs.

I believe this drug smuggler WILL be executed, to send a clear message out. My sympathies are with those blighted by drug related crimes. Where I live I have come across abandoned hypodermic needles, where children could have been.

As for Norway, that is a different subject for a different thread, so please do not hijack this thread.

I agree the Norwegian mass murder is another subject for another thread, however it does serve to highlight the vast injustice that exists in putting death penalty tariffs on crimes which do not involve the taking of life.

[Sticks]

But drugs do take lives

Some drugs kill the users, in the late 1990's somebody died of an overdose in a flat on the floor below mine, and like many the police interviewed me over a suspicious death. (I did not know the occupants of the flat)

We here tales of pensioners left for dead, by junkies on a high looking for money for their next fix.

People are killed due to those driving under the influence of drugs.

Drugs shorten lives

[Nedusa]

Drugs like Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If and when this mother is executed she will be killed by a group of people.

Smuggling drugs from point A to point B does not kill anyone . To execute someone because they increase the chances further down the line of someone overdosing on a drug or someone robbing someone to get money to buy a drug, is a horrendous over reaction and results in a "taking a life to possibly save a life".

There is now and never will be any justification for executing someone because their actions may or may not lead to someone further down the line overdosing on a drug.

By all means give them long prison sentences but imposing a death sentence on them is utterly ridiculous ....!!!!

[Jesus.]

Bali has drawn a line in the sand about drugs.

I believe this drug smuggler WILL be executed, to send a clear message out. My sympathies are with those blighted by drug related crimes. Where I live I have come across abandoned hypodermic needles, where children could have been.

As for Norway, that is a different subject for a different thread, so please do not hijack this thread.

The thing that you continually ignore, when using your "clear example/send a message" argument, is that it fails. If you are desperate enough to smuggle drugs, the death penalty is not of great concern. Especially when a gang are threatening your family.

Using your logic, as soon as the first person in history was killed for smuggling drugs, then that should have been the end to all smuggling. Otherwise the death penalty is futile.

[Jesus.]

Drugs like Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If and when this mother is executed she will be killed by a group of people.

Smuggling drugs from point A to point B does not kill anyone . To execute someone because they increase the chances further down the line of someone overdosing on a drug or someone robbing someone to get money to buy a drug, is a horrendous over reaction and results in a "taking a life to possibly save a life".

There is now and never will be any justification for executing someone because their actions may or may not lead to someone further down the line overdosing on a drug.

By all means give them long prison sentences but imposing a death sentence on them is utterly ridiculous ....!!!!

Drugs are nothing like guns. Drugs are a civil liberties issue, but no one should have the right to own a weapon of mass destruction.

[Kizzy]

Drugs like Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If and when this mother is executed she will be killed by a group of people.

Smuggling drugs from point A to point B does not kill anyone . To execute someone because they increase the chances further down the line of someone overdosing on a drug or someone robbing someone to get money to buy a drug, is a horrendous over reaction and results in a "taking a life to possibly save a life".

There is now and never will be any justification for executing someone because their actions may or may not lead to someone further down the line overdosing on a drug.

By all means give them long prison sentences but imposing a death sentence on them is utterly ridiculous ....!!!!

In the war against drugs (and yes it is a war) you have a chain of command, from the top down there are those who make it so that these substances reach our streets in whatever form, cut with whatever they choose.
This woman was one link in this chain, a weak link and one as said easily replaced.
The message now is hitting home for those who were thinking it is either an easy way to earn money, or a way to resolve serious threats to loved ones.

[Stu]

No, it's not hitting home. The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis. Bali or not.

[Kizzy]

No, it's not hitting home. The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis. Bali or not.

Where is your evidence to support this?

[Stu]

Where is your evidence to support this?
Plenty of Western countries are in the process of adopting or have adopted more progressive decriminalization/legalization based approaches to drug policy. The various grassroot movements around the world to liberalize drug laws are the loudest and most prominent they've ever been. Viral videos with everyone from respected scientists and government agents right down to cultural figures like Richard Branson and Morgan Freeman are calling for a loosening of the drug laws and are being seen by millions of people on the internet. The governments own former chair for the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs has set up an independent research body and is calling for a relaxing of drug laws. Two U.S. states have fully legalized personal possession of Cannabis with more states to follow. Comedians and actors are talking openly about the reverential, eye opening experiences they've had with LSD and DMT. Responsible recreational drug use is at it's most accepted, understood point in the prohibition age of human history.

It's all around you and it's growing every day. It's called a paradigm shift. Even the most ardent prohibitionists who are actually well read on this topic would have to begrudgingly agree that prohibition is slowly shedding it's skin.

It's a war on some people who use some drugs and it can't be won.

[Sticks]

Even the Dutch have begun to see the light and are clamping down, sort of

(See here from the BBC) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15225270)

The famous cannabis-selling coffee shops of the Netherlands are facing new tighter restrictions.

The Dutch government is reclassifying high-strength cannabis to put it in the same category as hard drugs.

It says the amount of the main active chemical in the drug, THC, has gone up, making it far more potent than a generation ago.

It means the coffee shops will be forced to take the popular, high-strength varieties off their shelves.

Dutch politicians say high-strength cannabis, known as "skunk", is more dangerous than it was before.

In the future, anything containing more than 15% THC will be treated the same way as hard drugs, such as cocaine and ecstasy....

[Kizzy]

Plenty of Western countries are in the process of adopting or have adopted more progressive decriminalization/legalization based approaches to drug policy. The various grassroot movements around the world to liberalize drug laws are the loudest and most prominent they've ever been. Viral videos with everyone from respected scientists and government agents right down to cultural figures like Richard Branson and Morgan Freeman are calling for a loosening of the drug laws and are being seen by millions of people on the internet. The governments own former chair for the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs has set up an independent research body and is calling for a relaxing of drug laws. Two U.S. states have fully legalized personal possession of Cannabis with more states to follow. Comedians and actors are talking openly about the reverential, eye opening experiences they've had with LSD and DMT. Responsible recreational drug use is at it's most accepted, understood point in the prohibition age of human history.

It's all around you and it's growing every day. It's called a paradigm shift. Even the most ardent prohibitionists who are actually well read on this topic would have to begrudgingly agree that prohibition is slowly shedding it's skin.

It's a war on some people who use some drugs and it can't be won.

You are fixated, this is not an issue relating to the US or cannabis.
You made a statement that said that the war on drugs was being won and figures for drug smuggling and or related crime was dropping...Where is your evidence?
Not from the US or Bali or anywhere else, here in the UK.

[Stu]

The story is two years old and any measure has yet to come into effect, much like how the proposals banning tourists from entering coffee shops were largely ignored.

Not that it is the most unreasonable suggestion in the world. I can live without 15%> THC Cannabis. The bigger problem comes from the fact that the Dutch model still does not represent true marketplace legality despite it's cliched international reputation. Cannabis is simply tolerated there. The cultivation of it is still forced into a clandestine cul de sac where the supply is dictated by often unscrupulous individuals looking to profit. It has resulted I believe in violence in some of the smaller towns in the Netherlands where outlaw suppliers wanted to be the ones to supply the coffee shops in the area and started popping each other off.

More ill effects of prohibition. There are plenty more countries in Europe that have more relaxed drug laws that people don't hear as much about. And plenty more to come. If anything the Dutch are going to fall behind. They have an incredibly outdated model.

Onwards and upwards goes the cause.

[Stu]

You made a statement that said that the war on drugs was being won and figures for drug smuggling and or related crime was dropping
No I didn't. I said that the Western world is slowly pulling away from drug prohibition and more and more countries are adopting more decriminalization/legalization based approaches. I alluded to the fact that culturally recreational drug use is more open and accepted than ever and that more and more people in prominent positions of power are coming out of the closet in support of a radical rethink of drug policy.

This is all factual. I never once said figures for smuggling and crime were dropping. And I never once claimed my arguments were solely based in the country that you live in.

Read more careful and think for half a second longer. It will save you and more importantly me a lot of trouble. Or you could just do that thing where you give up and claim you're not bothered by it again. Because this really is not working out for you.

[Kizzy]

No I didn't. I said that the Western world is slowly pulling away from drug prohibition and more and more countries are adopting more decriminalization/legalization based approaches. I alluded to the fact that culturally recreational drug use is more open and accepted than ever and that more and more people in prominent positions of power are coming out of the closet in support of a radical rethink of drug policy.

This is all factual. I never once said figures for smuggling and crime were dropping. And I never once claimed my arguments were solely based in the country that you live in.

Read more careful and think for half a second longer. It will save you and more importantly me a lot of trouble. Or you could just do that thing where you give up and claim you're not bothered by it again. Because this really is not working out for you.

Stop getting personal, these are your words..
''No, it's not hitting home. The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis.''

Not here in the UK it isn't, what the rest the world do is up to them as seen in this case.

[Stu]

Stop getting personal, these are your words..
''No, it's not hitting home. The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis.''

Not here in the UK it isn't, what the rest the world do is up to them as seen in this case.
Yes and those words said nothing on the subject of figures for drug related crime and smuggling. Nor did they claim to be exclusively aimed at your homeland.

So I'll say it again : The drug war is receding literally on a year by year basis. For the reasons outlined in my initial defense of this statement.

I'm confident most people who read it will find it easy to agree with even if they don't agree with it.

[Kizzy]

You are using baised evidence for your pro cannabis stance and unsubstantiated claims for the reduction in the war on drugs across the world. This thread deals with the trafficking of a substance that there is no question of being made legal by any country anytime soon.

[Stu]

The evidence is not biased and the claims are not unsubstantiated. You're just too lazy to actually debate them. There is a difference.

[Kizzy]

You are too blinkered to admit there is none to be found stu.
We are going waaaay off topic now and you are again getting a tad insulting.

[Stu]

There clearly is a debate to be found. Whether you want to participate in it or not is up to you but a dialogue exists across the world now more than ever. If it's good enough to be debated amongst doctors, lawyers and musicians then it's good enough for TiBB.

If you are so deeply concerned that the subject of this thread and your involvment in it sticks to the specific news story then stop engaging me in this half arsed attempt at trying to one up my more general posts on drug prohibition across the globe because it's not going to help, is it. Especially when it continually follows the routine of me posting a long, detailed argument, you disrespecting the effort by replying with no argument of your own and ignoring all of mine because you've already concluded internally that it's bollocks, and you eventually reverting back to the "but that's not what this topic is about" line when you get bored of it.

[iRyan]

Wow, this is absolutely disgusting. Death penalty is such a backwards system.

[Patrick]

When I was at university we heard the sad case of a 12 year old who died after taking one ecstasy tablet.

Drugs are not harmless

Those who gave that girl the tablet should have been done for murder

Ah Leah I believe her name was?

Yeah. Still amazes me how many people that has reached, the amount of Anti Drug Campaigns who use her as some sort of 'Poster Girl' because she died after one tablet.

For the absolute record though, it turns out she need by over-drinking in water and effectively drowning her brain. Which was - down to the ecstasy making her dehydrated, but all in all - it was the water.

[Kizzy]

There clearly is a debate to be found. Whether you want to participate in it or not is up to you but a dialogue exists across the world now more than ever. If it's good enough to be debated amongst doctors, lawyers and musicians then it's good enough for TiBB.

If you are so deeply concerned that the subject of this thread and your involvment in it sticks to the specific news story then stop engaging me in this half arsed attempt at trying to one up my more general posts on drug prohibition across the globe because it's not going to help, is it. Especially when it continually follows the routine of me posting a long, detailed argument, you disrespecting the effort by replying with no argument of your own and ignoring all of mine because you've already concluded internally that it's bollocks, and you eventually reverting back to the "but that's not what this topic is about" line when you get bored of it.

Your long detailed argument is nothing more than pro drugs diatribe, it has no supporting material, statistics or evidence.
There is no disrespect, after all it's a matter of opinion. And that's all I see here your opinion, it has no basis in fact.

[Redway]

Your long detailed argument is nothing more than pro drugs diatribe, it has no supporting material, statistics or evidence.
There is no disrespect, after all it's a matter of opinion. And that's all I see here your opinion, it has no basis in fact.

To be fair, civil liberties is not a matter of opinion and there's much more evidence to point out the idiocy of this drugs war than these biased, unsupported claims that you keep banging on about.

[Kizzy]

To be fair, civil liberties is not a matter of opinion and there's much more evidence to point out the idiocy of this drugs war than these biased, unsupported claims that you keep banging on about.

Where redway? show me some then....Whose civil liberties are you referring to here?

[Redway]

I thought it was common knowledge that people should be allowed to do what they want with their lives so long as it doesn't bother you without fear of imprisonment. Don't go dictating someone's life for them and telling them what you think is OK for them to do.

It's as simple as that. I don't need any substantiation or statistics to make that statement.

As for cannabis, not only does all that apply here, but there are tons of statistics that prove why it should be legalised. This discussion has been done to death with you and plenty of people have posted evidence to support these claims but it seems you just ignore them or even if you do concede them try and twist them to fit your own opinion.

[Kizzy]

I thought it was common knowledge that people should be allowed to do what they want with their lives so long as it doesn't bother you without fear of imprisonment. Don't go dictating someone's life for them and telling them what you think is OK for them to do.

It's as simple as that. I don't need any substantiation or statistics to make that statement.

As for cannabis, not only does all that apply here, but there are tons of statistics that prove why it should be legalised. This discussion has been done to death with you and plenty of people have posted evidence to support these claims but it seems you just ignore them or even if you do concede them try and twist them to fit your own opinion.

Well you can't do what you want with your life that's the bottom line.
There are Laws in every corner of the globe and if you don't abide by them you have to suffer the consequenses.
We may not like it but that's how it is.
If your opinion is that is wrong then fine, nobody has given anything but lip service I don't have to twist it.

[Redway]

Edit: forget it

[Sticks]

Ah Leah I believe her name was?

Yeah. Still amazes me how many people that has reached, the amount of Anti Drug Campaigns who use her as some sort of 'Poster Girl' because she died after one tablet.

For the absolute record though, it turns out she need by over-drinking in water and effectively drowning her brain. Which was - down to the ecstasy making her dehydrated, but all in all - it was the water.

This was before the Leah Betts case

[Stu]

Your long detailed argument is nothing more than pro drugs diatribe, it has no supporting material, statistics or evidence.
There is no disrespect, after all it's a matter of opinion. And that's all I see here your opinion, it has no basis in fact.
Which segments of my arguments are troubling you? I would be more than happy to provide links to studies, news reports and any other manner of evidence since my arguments to you are clearly the bitter rantings of some sort of insane stoner who is making things up as he goes along. That the decriminalization and or legalization of certain drugs is a farcical pipe dream that isn't actually being debated by people of importance. That there is nothing to discuss. That we can cover it up and all move along. For the kids. The idea that illegality exacerbates the dangers of drugs and puts them in an unsafe environment is something that I've conjured up of my own free will. It has no structured basis in reality. Clearly.

Here is one of the long posts to refresh your memory, troubled mummy :

No, they are not. They were banned for poor medical reasoning and out of a knee jerk reaction to fresh experiences of the mind that were misunderstood or wrongly perceived to be horrifying. They continue to remain illegal because it has built up in to a sturdy zeitgeist that no politician want to step out from the shadows to break. Politicians are typically weak people.

If medical reasoning mattered at all then the American government would have listened to Judge Francis Young - a DEA man - in 1988 when he declared Cannabis to be one of the safest therapeutic substances known to man.

If medical reasoning mattered the British government would have listened to Professor David Nutt - the then chair of the governments own Advisory Committee on Misuse of Drugs - when he declared Ecstasy to be safer than hose riding and when he repeatedly called for a relaxing of soft drug laws. Cannabis is currently ranked to be of equal danger to base amphetamines in British drug legislation. That is not scientific. That's science and policy on it's knees in the mud.

If medical reasoning mattered Professor Nutt would not have been unceremoniously sacked from his position. Governments would take their scientific advice first hand from unbiased scientific bodies when dictating drug laws and not from pressure groups with vested interests because the woman outside with the placard had a son who knocked back too many pills on top of a crate of alcohol and went sick then dead.

Medical reasoning does not matter.


Why are you using the word 'will'? Chances are Cannabis won't cause you long term health problems at all. Are you being facetious for the sake of it because you personally don't like an altered mind and prefer to stay in and check out a good old execution instead?

I have talked at length on this forum for a number of years now about the emerging trend of demonizing the mental state of Cannabis intoxication and it's purported effects on mental health. I was engaged in debate on topics like the ratio of cannabinoids in the make up of the plant years before the papers caught up with it [some still haven't].

The practical invention and mystical attributes given to "skunk weed" have created this weird sort of fantasy land for journalists who now have carte blanche to hanker back to the days of Reefer Madness and talk about smoking pot as if it's a trip down the rabbit hole with undertones of demonic possession.

Some are only coming around to and respecting the fact now that these mental health effects are not only blown out of proportion but are symptoms of the illegal environment the plant inhabits. It's not the strength per say of Cannabis that is sometimes dangerous but the exact chemical make up of the plant. It's easier to just say it's stronger and scarier than ever, I know.

The trend towards indoor grows where Cannabis is cultivated guerrilla style hard and fast in an ultra artificial environment by crime gangs who don't respect the product has resulted in THC enriched Cannabis that has all but had the CBD bred out of it. CBD is Cannabidiol. It's the true magic of Cannabis that is only coming to light in recent times.

Cannabidiol and other Cannabinoids like it in the Cannabis plant play a huge, very important role in mediating the effects of THC [tetrahydrocannabinol, the stuff that gets you groovy]. They round out the intoxication of Cannabis, infuse it with it's medical properties and protect against THC giving the brain too much of a kicking.

Cannabidiol is an [I]anti psychotic, anti anxiety agent. It has all but been bred out of most commercial strains of the ganj because of the illegal marketplace it exists in. Because of the zeitgeist of cowardice and anti science that you support.

So it's not just a question of strength. I'm regularly getting great hash that is far stronger than most of the mass market variations of haze and cheese that are smoking up the marketplace on this side of the pond but it's infinitely relaxing.

So in essence this mental health scare is an overreaction to a market trend created and preserved by Cannabis's illegality in the first place. And that is without me even going into sprayed and contaminated Cannabis.


Of course it wasn't rhetorical. I was pretty passionate in my insistence that you grace me with an answer regardless of the hypothetical nature of it. You could be brave and just do that.

One would assume you would support a similar system of judicial catastrophe on British shores. I would like to know as an honest, up front recreational drug user who has had drugs in his back pocket before where I would stand and what punishment would befit me had I ever been caught.

Heck I grew three plants on my windowsill once. Surely I should be eligible for a Sunday matinee execution to brighten your day up?

This is all only if you're interested in this particular debate, mind you. Like you have pointed out multiple times if you would rather this topic stick to the realms of the news story then that's fine too. But you have this peculiar habit of ... well ... you know.

[Kizzy]

Which segments of my arguments are troubling you? I would be more than happy to provide links to studies, news reports and any other manner of evidence since my arguments to you are clearly the bitter rantings of some sort of insane stoner who is making things up as he goes along. That the decriminalization and or legalization of certain drugs is a farcical pipe dream that isn't actually being debated by people of importance. That there is nothing to discuss. That we can cover it up and all move along. For the kids. The idea that illegality exacerbates the dangers of drugs and puts them in an unsafe environment is something that I've conjured up of my own free will. It has no structured basis in reality. Clearly.

Here is one of the long posts to refresh your memory, troubled mummy :



This is all only if you're interested in this particular debate, mind you. Like you have pointed out multiple times if you would rather this topic stick to the realms of the news story then that's fine too. But you have this peculiar habit of ... well ... you know.

No your opinion is not troubling me, as that's all it is...your opinion and not worth anymore or any less than anyone elses opinion stu.
If you wish to, I would be happy to read them.
Yes it is something you've conjoured up as you have no proof to the contrary that decriminalisation will make drugs safer.

I'm not troubled stu, not at all.
I have a habit of what?...Wanting to see reputable facts, countering dubious opinion...

[Stu]

I will use the Portuguese model as my primary example :

Drug Decriminalization in Portugal
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/drug-decriminalization-policy-pays
https://econ.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/yablon_daniel.pdf
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization
http://metronews.ca/news/world/393170/portugal-makes-peace-with-the-war-on-drugs/
http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/120718/drug-decriminalization-portugal-addicts
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/
http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/reports/drug-policy-portugal-benefits-decriminalizing-drug-use
http://www.idt.pt/PT/IDT/Documents/Ponto_Focal/2009_NationalReport.pdf
http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2007_Caitlin_211672_1.pdf
http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2010_Caitlin_211621_1.pdf


In short the system resulted in an increased uptake of drug treatment, a reduction in new HIV diagnoses amongst drug users by 17%, reduction in drug related deaths, a decrease in drug use amongst teenagers and a decrease in drugs related criminal justice efforts - freeing up time, money and resource to chase down bigger and badder apples.

This is a credible strategy to propose. The idea that it's the dubious opinion of some nutter on the internet is entirely reckless on your part. I'll say it again : if this is good enough to be an open debate that exists everywhere from Hollywood to parliament what right do you have to question the validity of it? I'm not asking if you agree with it - you're fine to disagree with it - but to not even give it due credit as a proposal is bordering on insanity.

Now moving on to other efforts. The purpose of this being to establish the feasibility of the idea and how it is happening in the real world. Because sometimes you sound like this is something that is only happening in my head :

Czech Republic
http://www.praguepost.com/news/3194-new-drug-guidelines-are-europes-most-liberal.html
http://www.prague-guide.co.uk/news/2010/01/19/drug-possession-legalized-in-the-czech-republic.html
http://www.dw.de/liberal-drug-laws-is-the-czech-republic-the-amsterdam-of-the-east/a-5815996
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/czech-republic/101127/marijuana-laws
http://www.expats.cz/prague/article/czech-culture/czech-republic-s-drug-laws/

Reform in the United Kingdom
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/13/uk-support-drugs-law-reform
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/10/david-cameron-commission-drugs-laws
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20720122
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/straw-backs-reexamining-drug-laws-8421157.html
http://www.csdp.org/news/news/ukupdate.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/15/david-nutt-drugs-science
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/01/david-nutt-alan-johnstone-drugs
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/24/war-on-drugs-40-years
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8336635.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8336884.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8342454.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8353685.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8455642.stm

Many other European countries such as Spain have legalized personal use of Cannabis. The movements to legalize Cannabis in the United States and Canada are well documented and I would hope I do not need to link to it. In Canada it's effectively decriminalized whilst roughly half of America have it legalized for medicinal use. Two states so far - Colorado and Washington - have now outright legalized it for personal use with more states to follow. Because the state governments realized prohibition was counter active and was never going to work. And because the people spoke and voted it in.

Now moving on to CBD. This is more Cannabis heavy material as I have already covered decriminalization in general. But it is highly important in providing an antidote to this "Cannabis makes you insane" line. I'm going to be lazy again and copy and paste as background. To this end I said :

I have talked at length on this forum for a number of years now about the emerging trend of demonizing the mental state of Cannabis intoxication and it's purported effects on mental health. I was engaged in debate on topics like the ratio of cannabinoids in the make up of the plant years before the papers caught up with it [some still haven't].

The practical invention and mystical attributes given to "skunk weed" have created this weird sort of fantasy land for journalists who now have carte blanche to hanker back to the days of Reefer Madness and talk about smoking pot as if it's a trip down the rabbit hole with undertones of demonic possession.

Some are only coming around to and respecting the fact now that these mental health effects are not only blown out of proportion but are symptoms of the illegal environment the plant inhabits. It's not the strength per say of Cannabis that is sometimes dangerous but the exact chemical make up of the plant. It's easier to just say it's stronger and scarier than ever, I know.

The trend towards indoor grows where Cannabis is cultivated guerrilla style hard and fast in an ultra artificial environment by crime gangs who don't respect the product has resulted in THC enriched Cannabis that has all but had the CBD bred out of it. CBD is Cannabidiol. It's the true magic of Cannabis that is only coming to light in recent times.

Cannabidiol and other Cannabinoids like it in the Cannabis plant [if you ever want to flex your keyboard fingers in a improvisational groove band feel free to use that as a name, man] play a huge, very important role in mediating the effects of THC [tetrahydrocannabinol, the stuff that gets you groovy]. They round out the intoxication of Cannabis, infuse it with it's medical properties and protect against THC giving the brain too much of a kicking. Cannabidiol is an anti psychotic, anti anxiety agent. It has all but been bred out of most commercial strains of the ganj because of the illegal marketplace it exists in. Because of the zeitgeist of cowardice and anti science that you support.

So it's not just a question of strength. I'm regularly getting great hash that is far stronger than most of the mass market variations of haze and cheese that are smoking up the marketplace on this side of the pond but it's infinitely relaxing. So in essence this mental health scare is an overreaction to a market trend created and preserved by Cannabis's illegality in the first place. And that is without me even going into sprayed and contaminated Cannabis.

And here is some material to support my arguments, mixed up with other medicinal benefits of CBD :

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cbdv.200790147/abstract;jsessionid=AAC28587295551250B79069B3C6780 3F.d03t02
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjmbr/v39n4/6164.pdf
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00207458608985678
http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/hemp/medical/dystonic1.htm
http://mct.aacrjournals.org/content/6/11/2921
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/192/4/306.full
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v29/n2/full/1300340a.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091305709001166
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v36/n6/full/npp20116a.html
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/25/1/121.long
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v31/n4/abs/1300838a.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20884951

I may post more links pertaining to the more general subject of medicinal Cannabis after dinner in spoiler tags if anybody is interested but I'm not sure yet. I doubt anybody would be brave enough to question Cannabis's potential as medicine because it is medicine. I may also post more evidence supporting a system of drug decriminalization but like I said I'm not sure.

I've taken effort to ensure as many links as possible were from mainstream sites or reputable scientific sourced. You won't fine a single website contained in this post that is in any way a pro Cannabis and or drug culture website.

Enjoy.

[Jesus.]

Stu, that is a really well put together post. It'll take me a while to read through everything, but you had me at hello.

[AnnieK]

Stu :worship: obviously something you know a hell of a lot about. Great post and interesting read

[Stu]

You convinced me I actually opened that with hello then felt slightly retarded when I had to read it again :(.

[Kizzy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20648276

''Portugal has not legalised drugs - but it has a system of not imposing criminal penalties on drug users who enter into special programmes designed to end their habit.''

Marjorie Wallace, the chief executive of the mental health charity Sane, expressed concern about the possible impact on cannabis use.
"If the report is to be responsible, it must take account of the specific damage that cannabis can do to the developing brain, not only as recent studies have shown inducing irreversible cognitive deterioration but in around 10% of cases triggering severe psychotic illness," she said

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2009/07/how_portugal_treats_drug_addic.html

''Drug trafficking remains a serious criminal offence: Portugal hasn't legalised drugs. But people caught with a quantity of drugs deemed for their personal use (roughly ten days' supply) are sent to a local dissuasion commission panel.
The one I attended consisted of a social worker and a legal expert and they were looking at the case of Joanna, a heroin addict. The commission has the power to issue fines - while no longer a criminal offence, possession is still prohibited in Portugal - but the user here is addicted to drugs, so a fine is ruled inapplicable. The commission encourages her to go into treatment by offering to suspend other sanctions''

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12/10/portugal-decriminalisation-drugs-britain_n_2270789.html

Dr Manuel Pinto Coelho, President of the Association for a Drug Free Portugal, says decriminalisation has not worked
"Decriminalisation in Portugal was not a blessing. Decriminalisation didn't help us. It was decriminalisation that results like this? I don't know. It makes no sense that people say since decriminalisation drugs use fell in Portugal,"
For Dr Pinto Coelho, it shows that decriminalisation had not worked. "Kofi Annan said a very interesting thing - the eradication of drugs in our planet is a difficult task but we can go forward, we can go through it. Since decriminalisation in Portugal there was an increase in every single drug. In cannabis and cocaine and ecstasy and in HIV aids," he said.

Like I said there is never going to be a one size fits all soloution. Thankyou for the information.

[Redway]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20648276

''Portugal has not legalised drugs - but it has a system of not imposing criminal penalties on drug users who enter into special programmes designed to end their habit.''

Marjorie Wallace, the chief executive of the mental health charity Sane, expressed concern about the possible impact on cannabis use.
"If the report is to be responsible, it must take account of the specific damage that cannabis can do to the developing brain, not only as recent studies have shown inducing irreversible cognitive deterioration but in around 10% of cases triggering severe psychotic illness," she said

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2009/07/how_portugal_treats_drug_addic.html

''Drug trafficking remains a serious criminal offence: Portugal hasn't legalised drugs. But people caught with a quantity of drugs deemed for their personal use (roughly ten days' supply) are sent to a local dissuasion commission panel.
The one I attended consisted of a social worker and a legal expert and they were looking at the case of Joanna, a heroin addict. The commission has the power to issue fines - while no longer a criminal offence, possession is still prohibited in Portugal - but the user here is addicted to drugs, so a fine is ruled inapplicable. The commission encourages her to go into treatment by offering to suspend other sanctions''

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12/10/portugal-decriminalisation-drugs-britain_n_2270789.html

Dr Manuel Pinto Coelho, President of the Association for a Drug Free Portugal, says decriminalisation has not worked
"Decriminalisation in Portugal was not a blessing. Decriminalisation didn't help us. It was decriminalisation that results like this? I don't know. It makes no sense that people say since decriminalisation drugs use fell in Portugal,"
For Dr Pinto Coelho, it shows that decriminalisation had not worked. "Kofi Annan said a very interesting thing - the eradication of drugs in our planet is a difficult task but we can go forward, we can go through it. Since decriminalisation in Portugal there was an increase in every single drug. In cannabis and cocaine and ecstasy and in HIV aids," he said.

Like I said there is never going to be a one size fits all soloution. Thankyou for the information.
Most of that will be down to cannabis being grown by criminals. That would be solved by taking it out of the hands of them and having the government regulate it.

[Kizzy]

Most of that will be down to cannabis being grown by criminals. That would be solved by taking it out of the hands of them and having the government regulate it.

Most of what... you havent even read it redway have you?

[Redway]

All that stuff about psychotic illness, no?

[Kizzy]

Well I can't win can I? I provide proof and expert opinion and you choose to remain ignorant to the facts. Have it your way redway.

[Redway]

Proof and expert opinion of how much damage legal substances cause, though? Or are they somehow different?

You carry on with your ignorant, unsubstantiated opinions. Others actually look at the full picture instead of just cherry picking tired old arguments to support their bias.

[Kizzy]

Proof and expert opinion of how much damage legal substances cause, though? Or are they somehow different?

You carry on with your ignorant, unsubstantiated opinions. Others actually look at the full picture instead of just cherry picking tired old arguments to support their bias.

They are different because they are not illegal for a start, and we can't spin off on another tangent can we?
Why do you feel my opinions and those of the evidence in my post is ignorant and unsubstantiated?
The only tired argument here is yours.

[Redway]

You're inconceivably naive and ignorant on this topic. No point debating with you any further.

[Stu]

I think I am going to do the same given the weakness of the response to my post.

[Kizzy]

You're inconceivably naive and ignorant on this topic. No point debating with you any further.

Back to hurling insults I see?... not a very intelligent response redway.

[Kizzy]

I think I am going to do the same given the weakness of the response to my post.

I gave you a reponse stu what do you want a dissertation?

[joeysteele]

I will use the Portuguese model as my primary example :

Drug Decriminalization in Portugal
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/drug-decriminalization-policy-pays
https://econ.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/yablon_daniel.pdf
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization
http://metronews.ca/news/world/393170/portugal-makes-peace-with-the-war-on-drugs/
http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/120718/drug-decriminalization-portugal-addicts
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/
http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/reports/drug-policy-portugal-benefits-decriminalizing-drug-use
http://www.idt.pt/PT/IDT/Documents/Ponto_Focal/2009_NationalReport.pdf
http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2007_Caitlin_211672_1.pdf
http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2010_Caitlin_211621_1.pdf


In short the system resulted in an increased uptake of drug treatment, a reduction in new HIV diagnoses amongst drug users by 17%, reduction in drug related deaths, a decrease in drug use amongst teenagers and a decrease in drugs related criminal justice efforts - freeing up time, money and resource to chase down bigger and badder apples.

This is a credible strategy to propose. The idea that it's the dubious opinion of some nutter on the internet is entirely reckless on your part. I'll say it again : if this is good enough to be an open debate that exists everywhere from Hollywood to parliament what right do you have to question the validity of it? I'm not asking if you agree with it - you're fine to disagree with it - but to not even give it due credit as a proposal is bordering on insanity.

Now moving on to other efforts. The purpose of this being to establish the feasibility of the idea and how it is happening in the real world. Because sometimes you sound like this is something that is only happening in my head :

Czech Republic
http://www.praguepost.com/news/3194-new-drug-guidelines-are-europes-most-liberal.html
http://www.prague-guide.co.uk/news/2010/01/19/drug-possession-legalized-in-the-czech-republic.html
http://www.dw.de/liberal-drug-laws-is-the-czech-republic-the-amsterdam-of-the-east/a-5815996
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/czech-republic/101127/marijuana-laws
http://www.expats.cz/prague/article/czech-culture/czech-republic-s-drug-laws/

Reform in the United Kingdom
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/13/uk-support-drugs-law-reform
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/10/david-cameron-commission-drugs-laws
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20720122
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/straw-backs-reexamining-drug-laws-8421157.html
http://www.csdp.org/news/news/ukupdate.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/15/david-nutt-drugs-science
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/01/david-nutt-alan-johnstone-drugs
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/24/war-on-drugs-40-years
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8336635.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8336884.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8342454.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8353685.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8455642.stm

Many other European countries such as Spain have legalized personal use of Cannabis. The movements to legalize Cannabis in the United States and Canada are well documented and I would hope I do not need to link to it. In Canada it's effectively decriminalized whilst roughly half of America have it legalized for medicinal use. Two states so far - Colorado and Washington - have now outright legalized it for personal use with more states to follow. Because the state governments realized prohibition was counter active and was never going to work. And because the people spoke and voted it in.

Now moving on to CBD. This is more Cannabis heavy material as I have already covered decriminalization in general. But it is highly important in providing an antidote to this "Cannabis makes you insane" line. I'm going to be lazy again and copy and paste as background. To this end I said :

I have talked at length on this forum for a number of years now about the emerging trend of demonizing the mental state of Cannabis intoxication and it's purported effects on mental health. I was engaged in debate on topics like the ratio of cannabinoids in the make up of the plant years before the papers caught up with it [some still haven't].

The practical invention and mystical attributes given to "skunk weed" have created this weird sort of fantasy land for journalists who now have carte blanche to hanker back to the days of Reefer Madness and talk about smoking pot as if it's a trip down the rabbit hole with undertones of demonic possession.

Some are only coming around to and respecting the fact now that these mental health effects are not only blown out of proportion but are symptoms of the illegal environment the plant inhabits. It's not the strength per say of Cannabis that is sometimes dangerous but the exact chemical make up of the plant. It's easier to just say it's stronger and scarier than ever, I know.

The trend towards indoor grows where Cannabis is cultivated guerrilla style hard and fast in an ultra artificial environment by crime gangs who don't respect the product has resulted in THC enriched Cannabis that has all but had the CBD bred out of it. CBD is Cannabidiol. It's the true magic of Cannabis that is only coming to light in recent times.

Cannabidiol and other Cannabinoids like it in the Cannabis plant [if you ever want to flex your keyboard fingers in a improvisational groove band feel free to use that as a name, man] play a huge, very important role in mediating the effects of THC [tetrahydrocannabinol, the stuff that gets you groovy]. They round out the intoxication of Cannabis, infuse it with it's medical properties and protect against THC giving the brain too much of a kicking. Cannabidiol is an anti psychotic, anti anxiety agent. It has all but been bred out of most commercial strains of the ganj because of the illegal marketplace it exists in. Because of the zeitgeist of cowardice and anti science that you support.

So it's not just a question of strength. I'm regularly getting great hash that is far stronger than most of the mass market variations of haze and cheese that are smoking up the marketplace on this side of the pond but it's infinitely relaxing. So in essence this mental health scare is an overreaction to a market trend created and preserved by Cannabis's illegality in the first place. And that is without me even going into sprayed and contaminated Cannabis.

And here is some material to support my arguments, mixed up with other medicinal benefits of CBD :

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cbdv.200790147/abstract;jsessionid=AAC28587295551250B79069B3C6780 3F.d03t02
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjmbr/v39n4/6164.pdf
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00207458608985678
http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/hemp/medical/dystonic1.htm
http://mct.aacrjournals.org/content/6/11/2921
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/192/4/306.full
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v29/n2/full/1300340a.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091305709001166
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v36/n6/full/npp20116a.html
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/25/1/121.long
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v31/n4/abs/1300838a.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20884951

I may post more links pertaining to the more general subject of medicinal Cannabis after dinner in spoiler tags if anybody is interested but I'm not sure yet. I doubt anybody would be brave enough to question Cannabis's potential as medicine because it is medicine. I may also post more evidence supporting a system of drug decriminalization but like I said I'm not sure.

I've taken effort to ensure as many links as possible were from mainstream sites or reputable scientific sourced. You won't fine a single website contained in this post that is in any way a pro Cannabis and or drug culture website.

Enjoy.


I have to give full credit where credit is due,I am really in awe at this post and your previous one I commented on too.

The part of your post I have highlighted in bold above is also something I do strongly myself agree with.

Really brilliant and clearly informed posts,well said Stu, really informative and attention holding.

[Ammi]

..I'm still working through the Portugal decriminalization links Stu...I didn't read the 37 page PDF document but I'm slowly and steadily reading all the other articles and there are some very convincing statistics so far...well done for the post and information btw...a lot of time and effort taken, I'll make sure I read it all...

..(apart from the 37 page PDF doc..)....

[Kizzy]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jan/26/drug-abuse-legalisation-eva-rausing
Sigrid Rausing argues that drug addiction should be treated as an illness, and I agree – but I don't believe prohibition is what makes drugs dangerous

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/10/david-cameron-commission-drugs-laws
Don't get hysterical – we're not suggesting ministers jump on a plane, go to Lisbon and start taking cannabis. We are suggesting that they look at what is happening all over the world. What this does not make the case for, and what we're against, is legalising or decriminalising any drugs. We're very, very clear about that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20720122
"After all, this is a war, the war on drugs, in which over 2,000 people are losing their lives in Britain every year, in which one in five 11 to 15-year-olds in this country now say they're trying drugs, where young people now are telling us that it's easier to get hold of drugs than it is to get hold of alcohol or tobacco''

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/straw-backs-reexamining-drug-laws-8421157.htmlJack Straw insisted he did not support the decriminalisation of soft drugs, such as cannabis''

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/15/david-nutt-drugs-science
''One of our first priorities will be to review the effects of "legal highs" such as mephedrone, sometimes referred to as "miaow". Currently, it's perfectly legal to buy and use these drugs in a completely unregulated manner. Yet there are real scientific concerns about the harm they might cause

I have addressed half your UK related links here stu, there are points for and against in every one.
There has to be a balance.
Surely nobody would have suggested that cannabis wasn't medicinally beneficial in it's natural state?

[Stu]

I'm confused by what you're doing here. In cherry picking certain links and copy and pasting certain quotes you're actually inadvertently just clarifying and supporting my own views that the war on drugs is not working.

In addition to that, why wouldn't there be points for and against? Like I already said the purpose of providing those specific links were to highlight how there is a movement to reform drug law, that it is a feasible idea that people of importance are discussing and that it's not a pseudo science based, unsubstantiated dubious prospect. The exact words you applied to my arguments. And I've achieved just that in posting the links that I did.

Furthermore, when did I say that there shouldn't be a balance? Of course there should be. And that balance is not the war on drugs. It's not the failed effort that you continue to staunchly support. Balance is a fair and rational system that aims to protect people as much as possible from the harms of drugs and to help those who have fallen prey to them but likewise to not piss away billions annually and waste the time and effort of law enforcement in locking up responsible recreational drug users in some weird effort to make the problem just go away.

Prohibition does not work. It is an afront to civil liberties and freedom of conscious.

[Kizzy]

I'm confused by what you're doing here. In cherry picking certain links and copy and pasting certain quotes you're actually inadvertently just clarifying and supporting my own views that the war on drugs is not working.

In addition to that, why wouldn't there be points for and against? Like I already said the purpose of providing those specific links were to highlight how there is a movement to reform drug law, that it is a feasible idea that people of importance are discussing and that it's not a pseudo science based, unsubstantiated dubious prospect. The exact words you applied to my arguments. And I've achieved just that in posting the links that I did.

Furthermore, when did I say that there shouldn't be a balance? Of course there should be. And that balance is not the war on drugs. It's not the failed effort that you continue to staunchly support. Balance is a fair and rational system that aims to protect people as much as possible from the harms of drugs and to help those who have fallen prey to them but likewise to not piss away billions annually and waste the time and effort of law enforcement in locking up responsible recreational drug users in some weird effort to make the problem just go away.

Prohibition does not work. It is an afront to civil liberties and freedom of conscious.

There are links provided by you stu, and in everyone it is made crystal clear there will never be a shift towards decriminalisation.
You have no idea what I staunchly support... do you?
What this boils down to is the fact some feel they are restricted from doing what they want...like the lady in the OP..but there are restrictions , some social and some legal. There has been for millenia and will continue to be...

[joeysteele]

The way I see things are firstly this woman shouldn't have been smuggling drugs into the Country anyway.
Furthermore, I myself and from the opinions on here few if any really think she should suffer the death penalty. Preferring a prison sentence instead for her as outlined by her original defence who asked for that and I believe that will be the outcome eventually.

She did wrong,she got caught and there is a penalty to pay for that,I however don't agree the death penalty is the right thing.

As happens with these cases however,it opens up though the debate of drugs generally and the legality or illegality of same.
Countries maybe need to look at their drugs laws and also the heavy penalties some have as to certain drugs.

I don't feel any need myself to say much more as to that as I agree with and have to applaud the posts and efforts of Stu on this subject and he has shown in my view, deep and great insight to the issue.
There is now debate in this Country too by MPs and other organisations that our drug laws are not working and that some drugs should or could be de-criminalised or relaxed and Stu has highlighted other Countries where they have a far better attitude and record with drugs than we could even hope for.

I hope that day does come,I agree with all Stu has said as to cannabis and hopefully as more countries wake up to doing something better on this issue then maybe other nations such as the one this Lady got into bother with may also follow on too.

[InOne]

The woman ****ed up in another Country and if they want to kill her that's up to them.

Not down with this 'war on drugs' nonsense though. Drugs are a part of life and people from all classes are taking them.

There is a minority who get addicted but for the most part people just have a good time.

[Stu]

There are links provided by you stu, and in everyone it is made crystal clear there will never be a shift towards decriminalisation
And? Of course high ranking politicians are largely going to denounce calls for it. Change is still inevitable. It's a question of when, not if.

You have no idea what I staunchly support... do you?
I'm going to go absolutely nuts here and assume you support drugs remaining illegal for recreational use.

What this boils down to is the fact some feel they are restricted from doing what they want...like the lady in the OP..but there are restrictions , some social and some legal. There has been for millenia and will continue to be...
Millenia? No. Not with this. Prohibition is a relatively young concept. Cannabis and other drugs were perfectly legal for thousands of years. Do your homework.

Continue to be? Again, no. Prohibition will not last. It never does. The trend of softening drug laws is more prominent now than ever and is taking hold in certain parts of the world. It will only spread more and more. U.S. states are falling over themselves to legalize Cannabis.

And as with many things where the U.S. goes the world may follow.

[InOne]

Stu, Kizzy just needs to lighten up and listen to Hicks eh.

NFHU1X1PED4

:worship:

[Stu]

Everybody needs a bit of Bill.

[Kizzy]

I think the government are making noise but nothing will be changed, nothing will make that happen. We have a bad enough attitude to alcohol in th UK to risk exacerbating the problems that exist in our communities.
No matter what you, I or the american guy with the mullet says.

[InOne]

If you start trying to diss Bill the debate is very much lost :shrug:

Night Kizzy

[Nedusa]

Looks like this thread started as a debate on whether the death penalty should be given to drug ( heroin) smugglers in certain countries but ended up as a debate on the Govts failing drugs policy and the call for decriminalisation/ legalisation of all drugs ...??

[Ammi]

..in a way it's relevant Nedusa..one of the arguments is that she 'deserves' the death penalty because of the lives that would have been devastated/possibly lost if she had succeeded in smuggling them through...a member is proving the more positives and effectiveness of decriminalisation and linking the successes where other ways have been tried...

....it may be a bit of a sidetrack but to me it is all relevant to the extreme of this punishment and why it's a completely futile punishment..as well as being inhumane....

[Nedusa]

..in a way it's relevant Nedusa..one of the arguments is that she 'deserves' the death penalty because of the lives that would have been devastated/possibly lost if she had succeeded in smuggling them through...a member is proving the more positives and effectiveness of decriminalisation and linking the successes where other ways have been tried...

....it may be a bit of a sidetrack but to me it is all relevant to the extreme of this punishment and why it's a completely futile punishment..as well as being inhumane....

Yes I agree it has provided a bit more flesh on the debate and tried to provide some background context. I liked a post earlier from Jesus H Christ who said that if the death penalty worked as a deterrent against drug smugglers then no more drugs would have been smuggled after the first or the first few smugglers were executed. But this never happened and drug smuggling still goes on undeterred. Drug smugglers are usually desperate people carrying out this crime for a variety of reasons, some are in terrible debt some are blackmailed or threatened to carry out the offence. Having a one punishment fits all policy and making that punishment a mandatory death sentence is obsence and barbaric and has no place in the modern world.

It is wrong plain and simple and the Govts in these countries should have the full pressure of the international community brought to bear in an attempt to end this medieval practice ...!!

[joeysteele]

..in a way it's relevant Nedusa..one of the arguments is that she 'deserves' the death penalty because of the lives that would have been devastated/possibly lost if she had succeeded in smuggling them through...a member is proving the more positives and effectiveness of decriminalisation and linking the successes where other ways have been tried...

....it may be a bit of a sidetrack but to me it is all relevant to the extreme of this punishment and why it's a completely futile punishment..as well as being inhumane....

I totally agree, also it is always likely that a sentence and an incident like this will open up the debate to not just the lady in question but as to drugs and drug laws in Countries,including the UK, overall.
Many Countries have severe sentencing for drug crimes, some Countries are moving to a different approach to drugs and even the debate is going on here in the UK, despite Govt protestations,by MPs who have looked at the issue and other groups making noises for the de-criminalisation and relaxation of laws of some drugs at least.

As you say very relevant to the original point as should more Countries decide to go down that route eventually then the sentencing in other Countries may well get relaxed too which would have affected the lady in question.

I still believe the Lady will get her sentence revoked to a prison term, I also hope that is the case, it would really shock me if that doesn't come about.

[Ammi]

Yes I agree it has provided a bit more flesh on the debate and tried to provide some background context. I liked a post earlier from Jesus H Christ who said that if the death penalty worked as a deterrent against drug smugglers then no more drugs would have been smuggled after the first or the first few smugglers were executed. But this never happened and drug smuggling still goes on undeterred. Drug smugglers are usually desperate people carrying out this crime for a variety of reasons, some are in terrible debt some are blackmailed or threatened to carry out the offence. Having a one punishment fits all policy and making that punishment a mandatory death sentence is obsence and barbaric and has no place in the modern world.

It is wrong plain and simple and the Govts in these countries should have the full pressure of the international community brought to bear in an attempt to end this medieval practice ...!!

..I agree, if Bali are so worried about their tourist industry and feel this is a way forward then we should show them what we think of their country and it's barbaric practises....

I totally agree, also it is always likely that a sentence and an incident like this will open up the debate to not just the lady in question but as to drugs and drug laws in Countries,including the UK, overall.
Many Countries have severe sentencing for drug crimes, some Countries are moving to a different approach to drugs and even the debate is going on here in the UK, despite Govt protestations,by MPs who have looked at the issue and other groups making noises for the de-criminalisation and relaxation of laws of some drugs at least.

As you say very relevant to the original point as should more Countries decide to go down that route eventually then the sentencing in other Countries may well get relaxed too which would have affected the lady in question.

I still believe the Lady will get her sentence revoked to a prison term, I also hope that is the case, it would really shock me if that doesn't come about.


..I hope so Joey, it's a shame the sentence was given in the first place, but I hope that proper justice is served here, which doen't mean standing someone against a wall and firing bullets into them....in what universe does that solution seem appropriate...

..good morning btw...I hope you are well.....

[Livia]

According to Amnesty International there are 20 countries which have executed people in the last year. China has apparently executed “thousands”, around 300 in the Middle East (with Iran being the Middle Eastern country with the highest execution rate), in 2011 the USA executed around 40 people with Alabama, Arizona, Ohio and Texas executing the most people. So I guess my question is this: is everyone just upset that this woman is British? Because I don't see many other threads popping up decrying the barbarity of other countries who use the death penalty.

As for the claims that death by firing squad is primitive, the Iranian Penal Code, Article 104 states that, “The size of the stone used in stoning shall not be too large to kill the convict by one or two throws and at the same time shall not be too small to be called a stone."

[Kizzy]

..in a way it's relevant Nedusa..one of the arguments is that she 'deserves' the death penalty because of the lives that would have been devastated/possibly lost if she had succeeded in smuggling them through...a member is proving the more positives and effectiveness of decriminalisation and linking the successes where other ways have been tried...

....it may be a bit of a sidetrack but to me it is all relevant to the extreme of this punishment and why it's a completely futile punishment..as well as being inhumane....

A member is not Proving anything. They have suggested that it may be considered, nothing can be proven untill it has been implamented and measured.
What successes there have been are dependant from whose stance you are looking from judging by the links stu provided.
Is the punishment also so hand wringingly tragic due to the fact she is a white woman in her 50's?
If she were a young black male would this have attracted the same level of public attention?

[Ammi]

A member is not Proving anything. They have suggested that it may be considered, nothing can be proven untill it has been implamented and measured.
What successes there have been are dependant from whose stance you are looking from judging by the links stu provided.
Is the punishment also so hand wringingly tragic due to the fact she is a white woman in her 50's?
If she were a young black male would this have attracted the same level of public attention?

...it's not something that I would even think of...I think I'll leave that debate to you....

[Sticks]

My expectation is that she will be executed, so Bali can show they do not give in to pressure from former colonial powers trying to meddle in their own sovereign judicial affairs.

[Jesus.]

I think old white women are better than black teenagers. There, I've said it. Happy now?

[Niamh.]

I think old white women are better than black teenagers. There, I've said it. Happy now?

:laugh2:

[Jesus.]

Yes I agree it has provided a bit more flesh on the debate and tried to provide some background context. I liked a post earlier from Jesus H Christ who said that if the death penalty worked as a deterrent against drug smugglers then no more drugs would have been smuggled after the first or the first few smugglers were executed. But this never happened and drug smuggling still goes on undeterred. Drug smugglers are usually desperate people carrying out this crime for a variety of reasons, some are in terrible debt some are blackmailed or threatened to carry out the offence. Having a one punishment fits all policy and making that punishment a mandatory death sentence is obsence and barbaric and has no place in the modern world.

It is wrong plain and simple and the Govts in these countries should have the full pressure of the international community brought to bear in an attempt to end this medieval practice ...!!

The force is strong with this one.

[MeMyselfAndI]

I feel sorry for the people there, having to live in such a ****ed up country.

[Ammi]

Bali Court Upholds Briton's Death Penalty




A British grandmother sentenced to death in Bali for trafficking cocaine has lost her appeal.

Lindsay Sandiford, 56, was sentenced to capital punishment in January for taking almost 5kg (10.6lb) of cocaine onto the island.

She launched an appeal but on Monday the Bali High Court ruled the original punishments was "accurate and correct" and confirmed it.

Sandiford, from Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, has 14 days to appeal to the Supreme Court.

If the Supreme Court also rejects her plea, she can seek a judicial review of the decision from the same court.

After that, only the president can grant her a reprieve.

The sentence would see her shot by a firing squad.

Sandiford was arrested in May 2012 at Bali airport when customs officers found the drugs, worth £1.6m, in her luggage.

She said she had been forced to smuggle the drugs into Bali from Thailand by a criminal gang and that the safety of her children was at risk.

She has cooperated with the police and local authorities, which has led to other arrests.

January's death sentence came as a shock because prosecutors had recommended a 15-year jail term.

Sandiford's lawyer has said the punishment is out of proportion, given she has admitted her crime, expressed regret and helped police in the investigation.

But the court ruled she had damaged Indonesia's hard-line stance on drugs as well as Bali's reputation as a tourism destination.

Three other Britons arrested in connection with the case received lighter sentences.

Julian Ponder was sentenced to six years in jail after being found guilty of possessing cocaine in his luxury Bali villa.

Rachel Dougall was sentenced to 12 months for failing to report Sandiford's crime, and Paul Beales received four years for possession of hashish but was cleared of drug trafficking.

Indonesia enforces stiff penalties for drug trafficking, but death penalty sentences are commonly commuted to long jail sentences.

[lostalex]

People forget how devastating the drug business is in 3rd world countries. It fuels gangs and mafia and all sorts of horrible much worse criminal activities than just the drugs. So it's understandable why 3rd world countries treat drugs crimes much more seriously than 1st world countries do. It's impossible for us to understand the much larger problems that the drug smuggling business creates in those countries.

I'm not saying that i support the death penalty in this particular case, i'm just saying it's hard for us to understand how HUGE a problem drug smuggling is in developing countries.

[Nedusa]

My expectation is that she will be executed, so Bali can show they do not give in to pressure from former colonial powers trying to meddle in their own sovereign judicial affairs.

Maybe they could line her up with Amanda Knox and use just one bullet to kill them both...!!!

You are clearly mercifully free from the ravages of Compassion.....!!!!!!

[Kizzy]

People forget how devastating the drug business is in 3rd world countries. It fuels gangs and mafia and all sorts of horrible much worse criminal activities than just the drugs. So it's understandable why 3rd world countries treat drugs crimes much more seriously than 1st world countries do. It's impossible for us to understand the much larger problems that the drug smuggling business creates in those countries.

I'm not saying that i support the death penalty in this particular case, i'm just saying it's hard for us to understand how HUGE a problem drug smuggling is in developing countries.

They don't forget, they just don't know they are ignorant to the facts.
I have sympathy for this lady and her family, it's a sad end to this appeal.

[Sticks]

Maybe they could line her up with Amanda Knox and use just one bullet to kill them both...!!!

You are clearly mercifully free from the ravages of Compassion.....!!!!!!

I reserve my compassion for the victims of these criminals and the relative of those whose lives have been destroyed by their criminal activity.

I reserve my compassion for the elderly people, brutally mugged and left to die, so some junkie can get another fix for that day of the drugs, the likes of this woman has distributed.

:mad:

[Nedusa]

Very touching but Compassion covers everybody, you probably know nothing of this woman's circumstances of how or why she is in the situation she is in. She may have been duped,threatened,blackmailed or framed.........

so where is your compassion for this woman, are you really happy to sit there in your self appointed role as Armchair Judge and let this woman be executed to satisfy your high handed uncaring uncompassionate sense of justice.

[Sticks]

Have you ever been mugged in the street and had an unknown substance sprayed in your face?

That happened to me in 1994

[lostalex]

Am I the only one that REALLY wants to hear the story behind being "sprayed with an unknown substance in my face in 1994" ?

Don't leave us hanging Sticks, tell us the story.

[*mazedsalv**]

When I was at university we heard the sad case of a 12 year old who died after taking one ecstasy tablet.

Drugs are not harmless

Those who gave that girl the tablet should have been done for murder

However, people seem to look over the fact that the actual cause of death was not purely from the tablet, but from the litres upon litres of water she consumed after taking the tablet, which resulted in her drowning her body. It was not just the drug that killed her. I bet they kept that secret hidden from you though.

I thought this woman should have been taken back here and dealt with here. A few people I know have been killed, one was hit by a train after being pushed on a train track just last week... I bet the men involved in that will get peanuts. And one 2 years ago, whilst under the influence of drugs ran over a friend of mine, he got 18 months... that's it. The laws in some countries compared to others are ridiculous.

No wonder there are more killings in the world, people feel they can get away with it more than drug smuggling.

I personally don't agree with the death penalty. If someone does that and kills someone (whether by electric chair or firing squad), it makes you as bad as the person... and in this case, makes you much worse than the person. Firing squad shooting dead vs. a smuggler. (I know which is worse!). I believe for evil people (murderers, rapists), they should not kill them, but put them in REAL prisons where there are no luxuries, they are fed disgusting foods, no bed and a hole in the ground the piss.