Abortion/Assisted Death

[thesheriff443]

its legal in this country to have an abortion and end a life, a life that did not ask to be made and yet its its ilegal to end your own life by having assistance to do so, when you feel life is no longer worth living!

all opinion's welcome!

[lostalex]

a fetus is not a life, it's just a growth, a parasite. That's my opinion.

A life becomes a life when it is capable of sustaining itself outside of the mother's body.

As long as it is reliant on the mother's body, it is part of the mother's body, it is not an independent life. It is just a growth on the mother's body and a woman should have complete control and decision making over her own body. If it was possible to transfer that growth to the father, then i think absolutely he should have the choice to take on that growth, but since that's not possible, all decisions should be with the mother/host.

Maybe some day it will be possible for men to carry children, but until that day comes, they have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies. If they don't like it then they should've worn a condom. period.

[thesheriff443]

a fetus is not a life, it's just a growth, a parasite. That's my opinion.

A life becomes a life when it is capable of sustaining itself outside of the mother's body.

As long as it is reliant on the mother's body, it is part of the mother's body, it is not an independent life.

then you where once a parasite, that was given the chance to grow into a human.

[Kazanne]

its legal in this country to have an abortion and end a life, a life that did not ask to be made and yet its its ilegal to end your own life by having assistance to do so, when you feel life is no longer worth living!

all opinion's welcome!

It seems very wrong when you look at it like that sheriff , I personally am against abortion except in certain circumstances, even then I struggle, as for euthanasia I suppose that is for an individual to do if they wish although that doesn't sit with me well either, to me life is sacred ,we are lucky to have it , but I say that as a healthy happy human being , I know some people are desperate and disabled so for them either of those options maybe the right thing , but it does seem so wrong that you can terminate a baby but not yourself.:xyxwave::hugesmile:

[lostalex]

then you where once a parasite, that was given the chance to grow into a human.

yes, and my mother choose to carry me to term and give me up for adoption. What's your point? My mother made a choice. If she chose to have an abortion, so what? i would never have existed. that'd be fine with me. 100 years from now when we're all dead, it really won't have mattered. The universe is so vast and so old, why get caught up in our own life spans. We are all just meat in the mincer of life.

My existence will not have made a damn bit of difference and neigther will yours.

Why do you think our lives matter so much?

[thesheriff443]

It seems very wrong when you look at it like that sheriff , I personally am against abortion except in certain circumstances, even then I struggle, as for euthanasia I suppose that is for an individual to do if they wish although that doesn't sit with me well either, to me life is sacred ,we are lucky to have it , but I say that as a healthy happy human being , I know some people are desperate and disabled so for them either of those options maybe the right thing , but it does seem so wrong that you can terminate a baby but not yourself.:xyxwave::hugesmile:

a great personal view as alway's:xyxwave:

[thesheriff443]

yes, and my mother choose to carry me to term and give me up for adoption. What's your point? My mother made a choice. If she chose to have an abortion, so what? i would never have existed. that'd be fine with me. 100 years from now when we're all dead, it really won't have mattered. The universe is so vast and so old, that we get caught up in our own life spans.

My existence will not have made a damn bit of difference and neigther will yours.

its was good that your mother had the strenght to have you and the strenght to give you up for adoption, if she went down another route we would not be having this conversation,you have spoken about having a family but in your post it sound's like you think there is no point in having one?

[arista]

its legal in this country to have an abortion and end a life, a life that did not ask to be made and yet its its ilegal to end your own life by having assistance to do so, when you feel life is no longer worth living!

all opinion's welcome!



Yes you can abort a baby
thats fair.

But
Assited Death has this problem of
others killing off a old relative

This is not a Game post

[lostalex]

its was good that your mother had the strenght to have you and the strenght to give you up for adoption, if she went down another route we would not be having this conversation,you have spoken about having a family but in your post it sound's like you think there is no point in having one?

i suppose it depends what you think. Maybe we would be having this same conversation, i'd just be a different person. Do you believe in souls?

[thesheriff443]

i think like kazanne all life is precious, and some people's lives have changed the world we live in for good and bad,

[thesheriff443]

i suppose it depends what you think. Maybe we would be having this same conversation, i'd just be a different person. Do you believe in souls?

i would like to believe in soul's,but i like hard fact's.

[Jesus.]

Women have earned the hard fought right to make their own private decisions when it comes to controlling their own reproductive organs.

[lostalex]

i would like to believe in soul's,but i like hard fact's.

then why are you thinking about unformed embryos when there are so many fascinating ACTUAL people in the world?

[Kazanne]

i think like kazanne all life is precious, and some people's lives have changed the world we live in for good and bad,

For me life is a gift , and I feel luck to have it.

[thesheriff443]

then why are you thinking about unformed embryos when there are so many fascinating ACTUAL people in the world?

its to compare the legal right to end a life, that did not ask to be made, when you cant legaly end your own life

[thesheriff443]

Women have earned the hard fought right to make their own private decisions when it comes to controlling their own reproductive organs.

would you still feel the same if she was carring your child?

[lostalex]

For those who know us you know us as Garbage. For those of you who don't know us, we are garbage.

I don't care if you call me Garbage or garbage. Eigther way, we are garbage.

I believe we exist, and lamenting those who don't exist is pointless.

I will twist the knife and bleed my aching heart... and tear it apart.

You will believe in me, I will never be ignored.

k6RQh4rd9mk

[Vanessa]

This is a very tricky subject. I think every woman has the right to decide for herself. It's not an easy decision to make. You carry it for the rest of your life. I don't agree with euthanasia, but in some cases i can understand it. :(

[Jesus.]

would you still feel the same if she was carring your child?

Then it is a joint decision. If it was an accident then the final decision should always rest with the mother.

[thesheriff443]

Then it is a joint decision. If it was an accident then the final decision should always rest with the mother.

but that's just it!, its the mother's choice not your's,you can be deeply in love plan for a baby you are then pregnant, and for whatever reason your partner decide's to end the the pregnancy you have no right's to stop her.

[lostalex]

Then it is a joint decision. If it was an accident then the final decision should always rest with the mother.

funny how the same men that say it should be a joint decision, are the same men that then complain when they have to pay child support...

[lostalex]

Men have a choice, you have a choice to wear a condom or not, you have the choice whether to ******* a woman or not. so please don't say you don't have a choice in the matter. Don't be stupid.

[AnnieK]

I agree with abortion being everyone's right to choose what they do with their own body. I am pro choice in that respect. It is not something I could even contemplate, regardless of the circumstance really (unless detrimental to the baby) but i think women should have that choice up to a certain time limit and I also agree with euthanasia IF it is a decision made by the person such as those people who travel to dignitas. I hope it is not a decision I have to ever make but I certainly would not want to spend months / years in pain facing a long tortuous death.

[thesheriff443]

Men have a choice, you have a choice to wear a condom or not, you have the choice whether to ******* a woman or not. so please don't say you don't have a choice in the matter. Don't be stupid.

but that's one side of the coin, its a different story if you planned for a baby.

[AnnieK]

but that's just it!, its the mother's choice not your's,you can be deeply in love plan for a baby you are then pregnant, and for whatever reason your partner decide's to end the the pregnancy you have no right's to stop her.

It's impossible to enforce though as it is the woman's body but I agree it must be very difficult and completely unfair for some men when the decision is taken from them and it is something they want...

[Jesus.]

but that's just it!, its the mother's choice not your's,you can be deeply in love plan for a baby you are then pregnant, and for whatever reason your partner decide's to end the the pregnancy you have no right's to stop her.

It's not a perfect system, but it works. The alternative is to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, and then deliver a baby she doesn't want. That's wrong.

funny how the same men that say it should be a joint decision, are the same men that then complain when they have to pay child support...

I would have no issue in paying child support at all. But most men probably say that.

[lostalex]

if men and women were equal, then yes, it should be an equal choice, but the fact is women are a discriminated against minority, and for men to prtend like they are an equal partner is rediculous.

When men take equal responsibility for children, then maybe they can have an equal say in a child's life.

So listen up men, if you want an equal say, help make women equal. equal pay, and equal positions of power, then you can ask for equality. until then, S*T*F*U.

The truth is that men still think of women as being put on this earth to carry and care for their offspring. until men get over their prejudices, they don't deserve equal rights. until men start TREATING women as EQUALS, then they cannot ask for equal parental rights.

[Jesus.]

if men and women were equal, then yes, it should be an equal choice, but the fact is women are a discriminated against minority, and for men to prtend like they are an equal partner is rediculous.

When men take equal responsibility for children, then maybe they can have an equal say in a child's life.

So listen up men, if you want an equal say, help make women equal. equal pay, and equal positions of power, then you can ask for equality. until then, S*T*F*U.

The truth is that men still think of women as being put on this earth to carry and care for their offspring. until men get over their prejudices, they don't deserve equal rights. until men start TREATING women as EQUALS, then they cannot ask for equal parental rights.

If a straight man made that many generalisations about gay men, you'd be flipping your lid. There are honourable/dishonorable people throughout society.

[Munchkins]

These are two of the most thought provoking questions that will never have a definitive answer tbh. I am pro choice, however it doesn't mean i'm for abortion, just if the woman really feels it is her only option then i believe its ok, however everyone should be done to try to prevent this being her only option.
Euthanasia i am also for, i do not think we should get the right to decide if someone themselves have the right to live, it is their own decision, and we can not make that for them, however if it is eventually legalised there needs to be strict restrictions, so that it is not easy to go through the process

[Niamh.]

If a straight man made that many generalisations about gay men, you'd be flipping your lid. There are honourable/dishonorable people throughout society.

Absolutely, the laws regarding fathers rights are completely out dated as well. It's actually disgraceful. Over here if a couple aren't married, even if the fathers name is on the birth certificate, he's not considered to be legal guardian of his own child and actually has to get the mothers permission to make him so or else take her to court

[lostalex]

If a straight man made that many generalisations about gay men, you'd be flipping your lid. There are honourable/dishonorable people throughout society.

No, if gay men had equal rights to str8 men, then i wouldn't. My point is that there needs to be equality NOW.

Gay men, or str8 women are not treated equally in society. so it's stupid for you to act like we should treat everyone the same. I wish everyone was treated the same, but they are not. When there is real equality, then you can start complaining about str8 men getting a raw deal,m but str8 men are still enjoying more privilege so they cannot complain.

[Kazanne]

Can I say sheriff,nice to have a good healthy debate going on here:xyxwave:

[Vanessa]

Can I say sheriff,nice to have a good healthy debate going on here:xyxwave:

I agree! It's great!

[lostalex]

Can I say sheriff,nice to have a good healthy debate going on here:xyxwave:


umm, i had something to do with the good debate too... why are you only giving him/her the credit for it?

[lostalex]

I agree! It's great!

why do you have the same sig as the person you're agreeing with?

It just makes you look like a sycophant.

[Glenn.]

but that's one side of the coin, its a different story if you planned for a baby.

If you've planned a baby why would you abort it? :conf:

[Kazanne]

umm, i had something to do with the good debate too... why are you only giving him/her the credit for it?

:joker: sheriff started the thread lostalex , but all contributions are interesting :hugesmile:

[Kazanne]

why do you have the same sig as the person you're agreeing with?

It just makes you look like a sycophant.

We are on the same team in the pub quiz , we are team Sparta :hugesmile:

[lostalex]

If you've planned a baby why would you abort it? :conf:

Don't bother with logic Glenn. In God-world logic has no place...

God-world is a magical place where yu are an asshole for making sense... it's not a nice place to be.

[Jesus.]

No, if gay men had equal rights to str8 men, then i wouldn't. My point is that there needs to be equality NOW.

Gay men, or str8 women are not treated equally in society. so it's stupid for you to act like we should treat everyone the same. I wish everyone was treated the same, but they are not. When there is real equality, then you can start complaining about str8 men getting a raw deal,m but str8 men are still enjoying more privilege so they cannot complain.

That's not what I said. I recognise, as a straight, white, male that I'm in the group that have had it easiest in modern history, but you're just wrong about all straight men treating all minorities the same.

If I tried to label all gay people as the same, you'd go mad, as I've seen you do it before. Well all straight people aren't the same either.

[lostalex]

That's not what I said. I recognise, as a straight, white, male that I'm in the group that have had it easiest in modern history, but you're just wrong about all straight men treating all minorities the same.

If I tried to label all gay people as the same, you'd go mad, as I've seen you do it before. Well all straight people aren't the same either.

well when you prove it, as a str8 man, by making society more equal, then i'm happy to listen. until then, i'm dealing with the unequal world that we live in.
But listening to a str8 man with all the privilege complain about inequality, sorry, i'm not bothered.

Maybe you should try to work on making the world equal instead of complaining about your own problems...maybe when you care as much about inequality, then we can talk.

A person of privilege cannot complain about inequality.

[Ammi]

..although, as a mother I can't imagine myself having an abortion..(I'm a bit old now anyway)..I think that every female has the right to decide on whether she terminates a pregnancy or not..but I will say that there should be counselling etc available (I don't know if there is) to help her with her decision and for her to be sure it's what she wants....

[Jesus.]

well when you prove it, as a str8 man, by making society more equal, then i'm happy to listen. until then, i'm dealing with the unequal world that we live in.
But listening to a str8 man with all the privilege complain about inequality, sorry, i'm not bothered.

Maybe you should try to work on making the world equal instead of complaining about your own problems...maybe when you care as much about inequality, then we can talk.

A person of privilege cannot complain about inequality.

How would you like me to single-handedly deliver equality to the world? I'm not complaining about inequality for white straight men, I'm saying you've made the same generalisations that rile you up about gay people so much. We're actually on the same side in terms of inequality in the world.

There is always someone who had it harder. If I'd grown up as a gay man, I'd still of had the same family, grown up in the same area, lived a pretty similar life. A gay Muslim guy in Tehran would die for your freedoms. I'm not the enemy, bigots are the enemy, and they survive in all quarters of society.

[lostalex]

How would you like me to single-handedly deliver equality to the world? I'm not complaining about inequality for white straight men, I'm saying you've made the same generalisations that rile you up about gay people so much. We're actually on the same side in terms of inequality in the world.

There is always someone who had it harder. If I'd grown up as a gay man, I'd still of had the same family, grown up in the same area, lived a pretty similar life. A gay Muslim guy in Tehran would die for your freedoms. I'm not the enemy, bigots are the enemy, and they survive in all quarters of society.

I'm not saying you can fix the world. i'm just saying, don't expect the rest of us to give a fook about str8 white guy problems, when we've got much bigger problems to deal with. Str8 white guys have every reasource in the world to deal with str8 white guy problems,. don't put it on us. and don't act like str8 white guy problems are equal to everyone else's problems, cause everyone else has far less reasources to deal with their problems than str8 white guys.

You have the advantage, you have a privilege. Fix it yourselves. I'm just saying, asking the rest of us to fix YOUR problems is pretty ******ing cheeky.

[Jesus.]

I'm not saying you can fix the world. i'm just saying, don't expect the rest of us to give a fook about str8 white guy problems, when we've got much bigger problems to deal with. Str8 white guys have every reasource in the world to deal with str8 white guy problems,. don't put it on us. and don't act like str8 white guy problems are equal to everyone else's problems, cause everyone else has far less reasources to deal with their problems than str8 white guys.

You have the advantage, you have a privilege. Fix it yourselves. I'm just saying, asking the rest of us to fix YOUR problems is pretty ******ing cheeky.

You know I think you're pure awesome sauce, but this just doesn't tally with anything that I've written. I'm not asking you to fix anything or be interested in anything in my life, but when you make blanket statements about straight guys not wanting to pay child support, then I'll call you on it.

There are straight losers, and gay losers. Sexuality isn't the deciding factor.

I generally deal with my own problems. I'll talk things through with people, but I don't want anyone to fix anything for me, otherwise when do I get the chance to grow and learn as a person? The only thing I want from you, is not to label all straight guys as "dead-beat-dads". Not because I'm sticking up for my sexuality and racial group, but simply because you're wrong, and you're better than that.

[Nedusa]

a fetus is not a life, it's just a growth, a parasite. That's my opinion.

A life becomes a life when it is capable of sustaining itself outside of the mother's body.

As long as it is reliant on the mother's body, it is part of the mother's body, it is not an independent life. It is just a growth on the mother's body and a woman should have complete control and decision making over her own body. If it was possible to transfer that growth to the father, then i think absolutely he should have the choice to take on that growth, but since that's not possible, all decisions should be with the mother/host.

Maybe some day it will be possible for men to carry children, but until that day comes, they have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies. If they don't like it then they should've worn a condom. period.

This is a good definition of life, it has to be self supporting otherwise the life is actually being sustained by the host (Mother) and as such she has all the choices ie to continue or to end. When that baby can sustain life on its own then it becomes a separate life and with that all the rights and freedoms that entails.

I do not personally believe in abortion for the sake of it (I was adopted and had my mother decided on a termination then I would never have been born) but there are many instances where the quality of life for the child will be so poor that it is almost cruel to continue with the pregnancy ie severe mental or physical damage or when the child is conceived through rape. in these cases the child will never have a chance of a normal life and so abortion in these extreme circumstances is justified.

[Cherie]

Yes you can abort a baby
thats fair.

But
Assited Death has this problem of
others killing off a old relative

This is not a Game post

I agree with this, (though abortion isnt always fair, some women use it as a form of contraception which is totally wrong) though I get the point you making Sheriff, what about people with dementia, would their familes be able to make a decision to kill them off as they get increasinly burdensome, but then on the other hand you have the case of they guy with locked in syndrome who campaigned for the right to die, there would have to be some very strict guidelines were it to be introduced.

[Jesus.]

I agree with this, (though abortion isnt always fair, some women use it as a form of contraception which is totally wrong) though I get the point you making Sheriff, what about people with dementia, would their familes be able to make a decision to kill them off as they get increasinly burdensome, but then on the other hand you have the case of they guy with locked in syndrome who campaigned for the right to die, there would have to be some very strict guidelines were it to be introduced.

You made a massive distinction yourself. People wanting to bump of burdensome relatives is one thing, but people campaigning to be able to die peacefully and on their own terms is quite another.

[lostalex]

If you believe in souls, then all souls will exist, it has nothing to do with abortion.

If you are a buddhist then you know that your soul will continue forever, and abortion has nothing to do with it. If you are aborted then you'd just go on to the next suitable body.

Abortions do not kill souls, they just end the growth of a fetus.

You cannot kill a soul. that's my opinion.
If you believe in christianity, then it also means nothing to have an abortion, because according to christianity we are all created in God's image, so there are no mistakes. If you have an abortion, it is God's plan.

There is no religion on the planet that makes it wrong to have an abortion.

[Jesus.]

You cannot kill fairies or unicorns either, that are the known carriers of souls to their next body.

[lostalex]

You cannot kill fairies or unicorns either, that are the known carriers of souls to their next body.

I was hoping i could be a Centaur. Having a horse cock would be fun :)

[Jesus.]

I was hoping i could be a Centaur. Having a horse cock would be fun :)

Welcome to my world.

[lostalex]

Welcome to my world.

pics or it didn't happen.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m90vfrCPqd1rd4fi5o1_1280.png

[Redway]

I really don't understand those who are pro-abortion and yet say that the ones who use abortion as 'contraception' are 'beyond sickening'. If you don't believe that a fetus is a life, does it really matter what circumstances they fall under?

Euthanasia is fine but I really don't like the idea of abortion at all. A life is a life, regardless of how undeveloped it is...

[Jesus.]

I really don't understand those who are pro-abortion and yet say that the ones who use abortion as 'contraception' are 'beyond sickening'. If you don't believe that a fetus is a life, does it really matter what circumstances they fall under?

Euthanasia is fine but I really don't like the idea of abortion at all. A life is a life, regardless of how undeveloped it is...

It's not though. For a long while it's just a collection of cells. How far do you go back? To the moment of conception?

[Jack_]

I'm pro both abortion and euthanasia, I struggle with my views on abortion sometimes but on the whole I'm pro-choice.

Definitely for euthanasia though, it's nobody else's choice but your own as to what you want to do with your life and if you want to end it.

It seems very wrong when you look at it like that sheriff , I personally am against abortion except in certain circumstances, even then I struggle, as for euthanasia I suppose that is for an individual to do if they wish although that doesn't sit with me well either, to me life is sacred ,we are lucky to have it , but I say that as a healthy happy human being , I know some people are desperate and disabled so for them either of those options maybe the right thing , but it does seem so wrong that you can terminate a baby but not yourself.:xyxwave::hugesmile:

But to other people it's not, and the 'sacred' view of some shouldn't be forced upon others preventing them from terminating their life when they wish (I'm not saying you in particular forcing the sacred view, just making the point in general :p).

I happen to think life is pointless, but that doesn't mean I don't, can't or won't enjoy it, but for others that's just not the case - and I have heard stories of people killing themselves because they see no point to life - and I know this is going a little off-topic here, but to be quite honest that's their prerogative. Sad, yes, but their choice. With euthanasia in particular I really do not see why someone that is suffering should have to prolong their life for the sake of some outdated religiously influenced laws, amongst other reasons of course. It's their life, it's their choice.

[Niall]

Personally, I think that abortion is perfectly legal as it's a woman exercising control over what happens with her body. It's really a matter for each woman to decide individually and I don't really think that men should stick their noses in the matter at any point, seeing as we won't ever be able to comprehend the feelings and stress of pregnancy, let alone an unwanted one.

Euthanasia however is a different thing entirely, and I don't necessarily think you can equate the abortion of a foetus - which is incapable of higher conscious thought - with that of an adult human being. If someone is in immense pain on a daily basis or something thereof, and simply doesn't want to feel that anymore, then who are we stop that person from wanting to end their suffering if that their wish? It's a highly emotive issue sure, but I don't think it's something that should be illegal. Euthanasia should be perfectly legal under the NHS really, but obviously with extensive evaluation carried out beforehand before they let the person pass on. I just don't think that someone should be forever imprisoned in their body if they truly can't stand it anymore.

[Kazanne]

Just a little thing that irks me is ,in euthanasia most people have a choice,in abortion the the fetus has none.

[Jesus.]

Just a little thing that irks me is ,in euthanasia most people have a choice,in abortion the the fetus has none.

Probably because it's a fetus, and as such lives and grows inside another human being, that it relies on for food and protection.

Cancer is a living thing that grows inside us. Should we seek out an opinion from cancer about whether it wants to live or be nuked, before treatment starts?

What if the pregnancy came from rape or incest? Would the fetus still be carried to term because it doesn't have the option of saying "terminate me"?

[Niall]

Just a little thing that irks me is ,in euthanasia most people have a choice,in abortion the the fetus has none.

But foetus can't think or feel. Someone who's in constant pain is quite another thin entirely. The constant torture that must cause (physical and mental) is completely different to the termination of a pregnancy wherein the foetus cannot feel or think about what's happening. You just can't compare the two in my opinion.

[Kazanne]

But foetus can't think or feel. Someone who's in constant pain is quite another thin entirely. The constant torture that must cause (physical and mental) is completely different to the termination of a pregnancy wherein the foetus cannot feel or think about what's happening. You just can't compare the two in my opinion.

I know that,it's just something that I feel,and are we REALLY sure a fetus cant feel pain?

[Amy Jade]

I am in favor of abortion.

If I got pregnant and felt unready I would have an abortion.

[lostalex]

Just a little thing that irks me is ,in euthanasia most people have a choice,in abortion the the fetus has none.

and a fetus doesn't have a brain, so how could it make any kind of choice? You know who does have a choice? that guy that sticks his dick into a pussy, that's who has a choice. but guess what, kids ******. It happens.

Boys and girls make irresponsible decisions. Do you really want more babies born to 15 or 16 y/o kids?

I don't.

[Jake.]

and a fetus doesn't have a brain, so how could it make any kind of choice? You know who does have a choice? that guy that sticks his dick into a pussy, that's who has a choice.

Just like the woman who lets him.

[Amy Jade]

Just like the woman who lets him.

That could bring up a whole other subject, sometimes pregnancy is from rape.

[Kazanne]

and a fetus doesn't have a brain, so how could it make any kind of choice? You know who does have a choice? that guy that sticks his dick into a pussy, that's who has a choice. but guess what, kids ******. Boys and girls make irresponsible decisions. do you really want more babies born to 15 or 16 y/o kids?

I don't.

Some abortions do have brains,and I never said I didn't agree with it in some circumstances but I do feel uneasy about it,which is my problem ,so calm down.

[lostalex]

Some abortions do have brains,and I never said I didn't agree with it in some circumstances but I do feel uneasy about it,which is my problem ,so calm down.

don't feel uneasy about it. Fetuses are NOT people. The religious right is very successful at preying on your heart strings about this issue, but fetuses are NOT people, they don't have thoughts, they don't have feelings, they have less brain activity than a chicken.

Do you eat chickens? are you a vegetarian?

stop letting the religious zealots manipulate you.

[Jake.]

That could bring up a whole other subject, sometimes pregnancy is from rape.

Yes but I'm not talking about rape, I'm talking about two people who decide to sleep together.

[Cherie]

I really don't understand those who are pro-abortion and yet say that the ones who use abortion as 'contraception' are 'beyond sickening'. If you don't believe that a fetus is a life, does it really matter what circumstances they fall under?
Euthanasia is fine but I really don't like the idea of abortion at all. A life is a life, regardless of how undeveloped it is...

well yes for instance if the foetus is not developing normally and is putting the mothers life at risk, rape, incest, there are all sorts of reasons that abortion is the only choice, however, there is never a case for using abortion as a form of contraception, and believe me it happens, when there are so many ways of protecting against an unwanted pregnancy.

[Kazanne]

don't feel uneasy about it. Fetuses are NOT people. The religious right is very successful at preying on your heart strings about this issue, but fetuses are NOT people, they don't have thoughts, they don't have feelings, they have less brain activity than a chicken.

Do you eat chickens? are you a vegetarian?

stop letting the religious zealots manipulate you.

Yes,been a veggie for some time:hugesmile:

[lostalex]

Yes,been a veggie for some time:hugesmile:

well you think you are, sorry, but those carrots you've been eating are 20% horse meat lol

[Jake.]

well you think you are, sorry, but those carrots you've been eating are 20% horse meat lol

:laugh2:

[Vanessa]

well you think you are, sorry, but those carrots you've been eating are 20% horse meat lol

http://agardenoftears.com/edit/data/emoticons/twitch.gif

[Kazanne]

well you think you are, sorry, but those carrots you've been eating are 20% horse meat lol

That wouldn't surprise me :hugesmile:

[the truth]

a fetus is not a life, it's just a growth, a parasite. That's my opinion.

A life becomes a life when it is capable of sustaining itself outside of the mother's body.

As long as it is reliant on the mother's body, it is part of the mother's body, it is not an independent life. It is just a growth on the mother's body and a woman should have complete control and decision making over her own body. If it was possible to transfer that growth to the father, then i think absolutely he should have the choice to take on that growth, but since that's not possible, all decisions should be with the mother/host.

Maybe some day it will be possible for men to carry children, but until that day comes, they have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies. If they don't like it then they should've worn a condom. period.


utter rubbish....a child is alive and often survives past 24 weeks. thats a living breathing life. as for you tunring it into yet more hetro male hating , over 50% of these babies murdered are female and no doubt lots are gay too. yet you preach from on high these parasites deserve to die. thats sick.:nono:

[Beastie]

a fetus is not a life, it's just a growth, a parasite. That's my opinion.

A life becomes a life when it is capable of sustaining itself outside of the mother's body.

As long as it is reliant on the mother's body, it is part of the mother's body, it is not an independent life. It is just a growth on the mother's body and a woman should have complete control and decision making over her own body. If it was possible to transfer that growth to the father, then i think absolutely he should have the choice to take on that growth, but since that's not possible, all decisions should be with the mother/host.

Maybe some day it will be possible for men to carry children, but until that day comes, they have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies. If they don't like it then they should've worn a condom. period.


I agree with this. However if a woman falls pregnant they should still listen to the father of their potential baby's opinion. Not shut them out because it is 50/50. However of course the overule decision is from the mother because it is her body as well as the baby inside it.

I am for pro choice. But contracepton etc.. should be more easily available for young people and older people to use to prevent from unwanted pregnancies happening. Unfortunately a 13 year old in this day and age should be on the pill if they are having sex. Better off than getting pregnant. Either that or not have sex at all. I always think that our natural bodies should grow through puberty and not take things like the "pill" at such a young and vulnerable age. But desperate decisions leads to desperate measures and precautions.

[the truth]

I agree with this. However if a woman falls pregnant they should still listen to the father of their potential baby's opinion. Not shut them out because it is 50/50. However of course the overule decision is from the mother because it is her body as well as the baby inside it.

I am for pro choice. But contracepton etc.. should be more easily available for young people and older people to use to prevent from unwanted pregnancies happening. Unfortunately a 13 year old in this day and age should be on the pill if they are having sex. Better off than getting pregnant. Either that or not have sex at all. I always think that our natural bodies should grow through puberty and not take things like the "pill" at such a young and vulnerable age. But desperate decisions leads to desperate measures and precautions.

great post , far more humane and less bitter than lost alexs post....fathers do actually care if their baby is murdered, yet according to the radical feminists they dont even have the right to an opinion. it seems perfectly decent and logical to offer the both parents as much advice and information as possible at school and during pregnancy, so they can make an informed choice. I also think smoking during pregnancy must be highlighted and targeted as something thats murdering babies in the womb.

[AnnieK]

great post , far more humane and less bitter than lost alexs post....fathers do actually care if their baby is murdered, yet according to the radical feminists they dont even have the right to an opinion. it seems perfectly decent and logical to offer the both parents as much advice and information as possible at school and during pregnancy, so they can make an informed choice. I also think smoking during pregnancy must be highlighted and targeted as something thats murdering babies in the womb.

I do agree with you that Fathers deserve rights when it ones to unborn children but it is just impossible to enforce.....it is horribly unfair that a guy who wants a child that's been conceived has very few, if any right, to an opinion before that child is born.

I also agree with the smoking thing but I think again that if the fathers a smoker too his smoking should be addressed as the second hand smoke is just as damaging to a developing foetus..

Equality goes both ways and as women we make many sacrifices during pregnancy for the safety of the baby regarding what we eat, drink, breathe in and how we medicate ourselves, IMO fathers should make the same sacrifices....but they rarely do...

[lostalex]

i never said father's shouldn't have rights to their children. I said that women get to control their own bodies. and until the baby is ready to come out and survive on it's own, it is not a baby, it is just a leech, and it's only the woman's decision what to do with that leech. Deciding whether or not to terminate, is her decision alone, and no man should have any say in that decision. but if the woman decides to carry the baby to full term, then absolutely, it is then a baby and a new life, and the father should then be an equal partner, and ofcourse the father should also be fully responsible for the financial needs of that child.

If the woman decides to carry out the entire pregnancy and there is a baby then i agree that a father then has equal rights to his child. And equal responsibilities. (especially financial responsibilities)

[Withano]

Abortion is a cruel or dumb humans contraception.
There are few exceptional cases, but most people who have this done are murderers. Millions of people waiting to adopt a baby you'd never love, but you keep happiness from them too.

[AnnieK]

Abortion is a cruel or dumb humans contraception.
There are few exceptional cases, but most people who have this done are murderers. Millions of people waiting to adopt a baby you'd never love, but you keep happiness from them too.

Whilst I agree that there are many people waiting to adopt, there are also thousands of slightly older children who get ignored by many as they want a baby. It would be nice if people waiting to adopt could all have that little newborn bundle but in reality this rarely happens. Most adoptions don't happen until a baby is around 10 months and during this time is in the care system. I would like to see the older children waiting for adoption did their families than forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child that will become a statistic in the system.

[the truth]

I do agree with you that Fathers deserve rights when it ones to unborn children but it is just impossible to enforce.....it is horribly unfair that a guy who wants a child that's been conceived has very few, if any right, to an opinion before that child is born.

I also agree with the smoking thing but I think again that if the fathers a smoker too his smoking should be addressed as the second hand smoke is just as damaging to a developing foetus..

Equality goes both ways and as women we make many sacrifices during pregnancy for the safety of the baby regarding what we eat, drink, breathe in and how we medicate ourselves, IMO fathers should make the same sacrifices....but they rarely do...

agree 100% any smoking near a pregnant woman should be stopped. if a bloke smoked near my missus and refused to put it out, Id put him out.
smoking kills babies simple as that.

as for enforcing any kind of fathers rights, I agree its virtually impossible. I think a system should be in place that brings more balance to the situation. it shouldnt be seen as men forcing women to do things, it should be seen as a loving father who has helped produce this baby having a right to have his opinion heard. the fact is we are near the top of the league in terms of abortions. over 1 in 5 pregnancies is aborted in the UK? thats over 1 million aborted babies in 6 years? it cant go on like this. we need better education, better information, better dialogue...we also need to remove the overly loud radical feminists from the debate and hear more from mothers and fathers and health professionals....we also rewrad people who get pregnant young with free housing immediately and a lifetime of benefits....everyone is suffering due often to simple lack of communication and information between the nhs and the parents and between the parents themselves?

the attitude that lost alex portrays here is the scariest thing Ive ever heard in my life. as if everytime any man offers an opinion he should be silnced because all men are some kind of neanderthal sexist mysogynist bullies? we all look for advice, opinions and information in all situations. even more so when dealing with pregnancies. often young girls pregnant and young fathers are ignorant to the complexities and all the surrounding issues. ask most young people and they arent even aware that smoking kills, let alone kills babies and dont even get me started on drink and drugs

[the truth]

i never said father's shouldn't have rights to their children. I said that women get to control their own bodies. and until the baby is ready to come out and survive on it's own, it is not a baby, it is just a leech, and it's only the woman's decision what to do with that leech. Deciding whether or not to terminate, is her decision alone, and no man should have any say in that decision. but if the woman decides to carry the baby to full term, then absolutely, it is then a baby and a new life, and the father should then be an equal partner, and ofcourse the father should also be fully responsible for the financial needs of that child.

If the woman decides to carry out the entire pregnancy and there is a baby then i agree that a father then has equal rights to his child. And equal responsibilities. (especially financial responsibilities)

an unborn baby is just a leech? Am I the only person who finds these words horrific and deranged?

[Munchkins]

I just think that in any age of pregnancy, more advice and emotional support needs to be given to the father. Yes he may not be carrying the baby, but he's still going to feel the emotional ramifications, of if the baby is aborted, or if the baby is born and he can't cope, we hear all about post natal depression for women, but men don't have that emotional support
As a girl myself, i'd like to think that if i do ever have children, the father will be as equally involved, and will have a bond before the baby is born, just as mothers usually do

[lostalex]

an unborn baby is just a leech? Am I the only person who finds these words horrific and deranged?

really? yur offended by that. yur not offended by the person saying that all women who have an abortion are MURDERERS, yur not offended by that?

We are sooo VERY far apart dude. very VERY far apart.

[the truth]

really? yur offended by that. yur not offended by the person saying that all women who have an abortion are MURDERERS, yur not offended by that?

We are sooo VERY far apart dude. very VERY far apart.

yes killing off babies is a profound matter, a few words to get offended by is trivial , Im profound, youre trivial

[the truth]

I just think that in any age of pregnancy, more advice and emotional support needs to be given to the father. Yes he may not be carrying the baby, but he's still going to feel the emotional ramifications, of if the baby is aborted, or if the baby is born and he can't cope, we hear all about post natal depression for women, but men don't have that emotional support
As a girl myself, i'd like to think that if i do ever have children, the father will be as equally involved, and will have a bond before the baby is born, just as mothers usually do

youre a good person munchkins, you care about other people and take their opinions into account, you dont discriminate against men simply because they are men. You will make a great parent.

[lostalex]

yes killing off babies is a profound matter, a few words to get offended by is trivial , Im profound, youre trivial

or...you're full of hyperbole and i'm being reasonable...

one or the other...

[Saph]

I'd rather a baby be aborted than be born into an unloving family, but most people who do have abortions would probably find that once the baby is born, they'd still love it unconditionally .

[Munchkins]

youre a good person munchkins, you care about other people and take their opinions into account, you dont discriminate against men simply because they are men. You will make a great parent.

Thank you:hugesmile: i just think it's important to see both sides of the coin in every debate tbh. I really do feel sorry for men in this day and age, the amount of adverts that now discriminate against them etc. Yes sexism is still prevalent towards women, but it is so looked down on if any man makes a joke about a woman, but it seems ok for vice versa. I also may only be 16 and therefore way far off pregnancy, but i think its important to research the topic even if it is many years off:hugesmile:
I went off topic there, but oh well

[lostalex]

I'd rather a baby be aborted than be born into an unloving family, but most people who do have abortions would probably find that once the baby is born, they'd still love it unconditionally .
yea, or they would just pawn it off to their mom to take care off while they go out and get drunk every night...

[the truth]

I'd rather a baby be aborted than be born into an unloving family, but most people who do have abortions would probably find that once the baby is born, they'd still love it unconditionally .

id rather give a beautiful innocent baby a chance to live. if his/her family isnt up to it, he/she can always be adopted or fostered, perhaps in years to come the baby can return to its home. but at least if its allowed to live it has a chance at a life.

[Saph]

yea, or they would just pawn it off to their mom to take care off while they go out and get drunk every night...

well that would be considered an unloving family

[the truth]

yea, or they would just pawn it off to their mom to take care off while they go out and get drunk every night...

more generalized sexist male hating discrimination, you need help

[lostalex]

Thank you:hugesmile: i just think it's important to see both sides of the coin in every debate tbh. I really do feel sorry for men in this day and age, the amount of adverts that now discriminate against them etc. Yes sexism is still prevalent towards women, but it is so looked down on if any man makes a joke about a woman, but it seems ok for vice versa. I also may only be 16 and therefore way far off pregnancy, but i think its important to research the topic even if it is many years off:hugesmile:
I went off topic there, but oh well

there is no vice versa. because there is not centuries of history of women abusing and raping and murdering men, so you can't really say that things should be equal, because history is not equal. Perhaps if women abuse and rape and murder men for a few thousand years, THEN we can start pretending things are equal...that's gonna be at least a thousand years from now though... it's not gonna be any time soon...

[the truth]

or...you're full of hyperbole and i'm being reasonable...

one or the other...

wrong again. you call babies leeches? that sounds deranged to anyone with a brain. you also get more offended by words like murdered than you do about the act of being murdered, again to anyone with a brain you sound deranged.

[lostalex]

wrong again. you call babies leeches? that sounds deranged to anyone with a brain. you also get more offended by words like murdered than you do about the act of being murdered, again to anyone with a brain you sound deranged.

no, it's just a scientific fact.. babies are leeches/parasites... thats how they grow. look it up.

[Saph]

id rather give a beautiful innocent baby a chance to live. if his/her family isnt up to it, he/she can always be adopted or fostered, perhaps in years to come the baby can return to its home. but at least if its allowed to live it has a chance at a life.

true, you do hear of people who get treated badly as children and grow up to help make sure the same doesn't happen to others, in those cases there can be a some good in it.

[lostalex]

You guys can pretend there is a happy ending for these kids, when the fact is, it AINT so ROSY. keep pretending though. It's cute.

[Redway]

I'd rather a baby be aborted than be born into an unloving family, but most people who do have abortions would probably find that once the baby is born, they'd still love it unconditionally .

There are always alternatives, though. There are plenty of couples out there who are desperate for children. If one couple doesn't want the child, s/he can easily be put up for adoption or something.

Fair enough about a fetus under 24 weeks old not being a full living being, but I'd rather they were given the chance to live and contribute to society rather than having all those objectives cut off because the mother "wasn't ready" or whatever.

Rape or incest are obviously a lot different but I think the current laws are far too lenient.

[Munchkins]

there is no vice versa. because there is not centuries of history of women abusing and raping and murdering men, so you can't really say that things should be equal, because history is not equal. Perhaps if women abuse and rape and murder men for a few thousand years, THEN we can start pretending things are equal...that's gonna be at least a thousand years from now though... it's not gonna be any time soon...

There is still many cases though of women abusing men you just don't hear it!. The news hardly ever bother to tell stories of women pedophiles, its always the stereotypical 60 year old man. And besides i wasn't talking about that, i was talking the the media being able to mock men, and it not being viewed as bad. For instance on many chat shows, women are able to fondle and perv over the male guests, and talk shows such as the view and loose women are allowed. Would you ever see an all male talkshow? and have them fondling over women etc, no it would be outlawed

[lostalex]

There are always alternatives, though. There are plenty of couples out there who are desperate for children. If one couple doesn't want the child, s/he can easily be put up for adoption or something.

umm, look into the foster care system, there are TONS of kids who are NOT able to find homes. There are NOT plenty of families wanting to take these kids in.

Where do you guys get this idea that there are so many perfect families willing to take in kids, and not enuf kids to satisfy them. It's the exact oppossite i'm sorry to tell you.

[Munchkins]

umm, look into the foster care system, there are TONS of kids who are NOT able to find homes. There are NOT plenty of families wanting to take these kids in.

Where you you guys get this idea that there are so many perfect families willing to take in kids, and not enuf kids to satisfy them. It's the exact oppossite i'm sorry to tell you.

I agree with this too though. Adoption is always parading as a definitive over option, when most of the time the child wil just spend time in a home for years waiting for family. Adoption can't just be viewed as an easy option which it often is viewed as

[the truth]

there is no vice versa. because there is not centuries of history of women abusing and raping and murdering men, so you can't really say that things should be equal, because history is not equal. Perhaps if women abuse and rape and murder men for a few thousand years, THEN we can start pretending things are equal...that's gonna be at least a thousand years from now though... it's not gonna be any time soon...

gross generalization about all men as always.

so your solution is to rape and pillage everyone? 2 wrongs dont make a right
this rewriting of history is profoundly simplistic and dumb. back a few 100 years ago the poorest men and women died young, they lived in mud huts, they had barely any legal rights. working men had no right to vote either over a century ago. most poor men were sent to certain death fighting wars for rich people. the battle wasnt men v women it was rich v poor. however centuries ago people were not educated or evolved, they lived by the laws of the jungle....just like wild animals in africa, the strong devoured the weak.

the only person ive ever hear dwho helpd the crippled and the blind was jesus. but in truth those dark years were simply ones of survival. trying to find ebough food to survive and feed ones children. these days we live a relative life of luxury. check out family trees, most men and women either died of TB or disease or due to war. looking at history out of context will teach you nothing. the average person died at less than half the age they do nowadays. look at history and evolution in context and you will see a world of kings and queens and rich landowners , whereas the rest of the 99% lived like pygmies.

[the truth]

There are always alternatives, though. There are plenty of couples out there who are desperate for children. If one couple doesn't want the child, s/he can easily be put up for adoption or something.

Fair enough about a fetus under 24 weeks old not being a full living being, but I'd rather they were given the chance to live and contribute to society rather than having all those objectives cut off because the mother "wasn't ready" or whatever.

Rape or incest are obviously a lot different but I think the current laws are far too lenient.

100% agreed.

[Munchkins]

gross generalization about all men as always.

so your solution is to rape and pillage everyone? 2 wrongs dont make a right
this rewriting of history is profoundly simplistic and dumb. back a few 100 years ago the poorest men and women died young, they lived in mud huts, they had barely any legal rights. working men had no right to vote either over a century ago. most poor men were sent to certain death fighting wars for rich people. the battle wasnt men v women it was rich v poor. however centuries ago people were not educated or evolved, they lived by the laws of the jungle....just like wild animals in africa, the strong devoured the weak.

the only person ive ever hear dwho helpd the crippled and the blind was jesus. but in truth those dark years were simply ones of survival. trying to find ebough food to survive and feed ones children. these days we live a relative life of luxury. check out family trees, most men and women either died of TB or disease or due to war. looking at history out of context will teach you nothing. the average person died at less than half the age they do nowadays. look at history and evolution in context and you will see a world of kings and queens and rich landowners , whereas the rest of the 99% lived like pygmies.

A forgotten fact in history, it always seems like. People do forget that whilst women did have to fight for the vote for longer, normal men did also not have equality for quite a period of time. The fear is that sexism could turn the other way around imo, and we will have a society deragatory towards normal men

[the truth]

maybe the fact men have no voice in whether their children live or die, and no support system whatsoever in dealing with the loss of their child, is one of the reasons behind the massive suicide rates amongst young men worldwide

[Munchkins]

maybe the fact men have no voice in whether their children live or die, and no support system whatsoever in dealing with the loss of their child, is one of the reasons behind the massive suicide rates amongst young men worldwide

Also the fact that it seems, in society we seem to forget Men have emotional problems too. All we see paraded is female eating disorders etc, we never hear stories of male eating disorders. It's always viewed as 'sissy' like for a male to admitt to his problems, and we dont talk about it as a society, which is terrible

[MTVN]

The fact that most men didn't have the vote for centuries is still sorta gender related though, because it was decided by property and by land which would always be in the hands of the male head of the household because of how patriarchal society was. It wasn't wholly to do with gender, but nor completely due to class, the two were pretty tied in with each other

[lostalex]

A forgotten fact in history, it always seems like. People do forget that whilst women did have to fight for the vote for longer, normal men did also not have equality for quite a period of time. The fear is that sexism could turn the other way around imo, and we will have a society deragatory towards normal men
umm, but those "normal" men, working class men, also had women as slave laborers, they considered their wives to be their property, and women had no freedom at all in those working class homes, so i don't see why you are saying that as if it means that men EVER suffered as much as women, they didn't.

Even men who were SLAVES still had it better than women who were slaves. IN the times of slavery, the black male slaves still had it better then white women. White women (wives/mothers/daughters) got beaten and ordered around just as much if not more than black male slaves.

Please don't feel sorry for men.

[Munchkins]

umm, but those "normal" men, working class men, also had women as slave laborers, they considered their wives to be their property, and women had no freedom at all in those working class homes, so i don't see why you are saying that as if it means that men EVER suffered as much as women, they didn't.

Even men who were SLAVES still had it better than women who were slaves. IN the times of slavery, the black male slaves still had it better than white women.

Please don't feel sorry for men.

I'm not trying to say they have suffered as Bad, but they have faced discrimination in other areas. I'm not going to discuss a lot of this though, because whilst i am studying History at a level, it's not in this area, and i don't think i should debate it, if i don't know the facts :laugh:

[the truth]

both my grandfathers and great grandfathers were conscripted to fight in the world wars. the first war was a rich mans war, where tens of millions of very young men who knew very little about the world died in the trenches. 70,000 died in one morning at the somme. I have my great grandfathers diary hand written. it would make a glass eye cry. he fought for 3 long years and cam eback with black water fever. he had no pension and my great gran was left to nurse him and my grand dad....so everyone suffered... all these men were great men, pacificts, who wanted nothing more than to be home with their families living a happy peaceful life. my other grand dad fought in the navy, when he returned he had no pension nothing. he had to return to work , where he walked miles to work every day in cobbled boots to get home and give the wage to my granny to pay for the 5 children.

its too simplistic to way all men are this all women are that..many male leaders have sent people to war, many female leaders have too...its nothing to do with gender...most wars are wars over land, wealth power and ego. we find ourselves in crazy situations left behind from previous generations.. look at the vietnam war, the majority of americans killed were 19 year old men fighting another unwinnable crazy war. take obama hes won the nobel peace prize yet has killed thousands with drones. in the war office war generals have to make decisions where thousands will die no matter what decisions they make. in an over populated world, where millions starve (men and women) and resources are scarce, wars will always be fought. BUT if the rich could release their grip from power we could quite easily feed the whole world. sadly we spend more on wars and weapons than on feeding and medicating the poor.


this is to do with class , wealth and power. why did monarchy make the male head of the family? I dont know is that the fault of al men? in reality, families dont work that way. fathers and mothers are a team. they help each other out and dont see each other as enemies but a slovers and as team mates. the truth is the battle of the sexes is a total lie, its yet another divide and conquer technique used by the rich to get the poorer people fighting amongst themselves.

[lostalex]

Remember this, In America, black men got the right to vote BEFORE white women got the right to vote.

[the truth]

umm, but those "normal" men, working class men, also had women as slave laborers, they considered their wives to be their property, and women had no freedom at all in those working class homes, so i don't see why you are saying that as if it means that men EVER suffered as much as women, they didn't.

Even men who were SLAVES still had it better than women who were slaves. IN the times of slavery, the black male slaves still had it better then white women. White women (wives/mothers/daughters) got beaten and ordered around just as much if not more than black male slaves.

Please don't feel sorry for men.

I do. I feel sorry for you.

[Redway]

umm, look into the foster care system, there are TONS of kids who are NOT able to find homes. There are NOT plenty of families wanting to take these kids in.

Where do you guys get this idea that there are so many perfect families willing to take in kids, and not enuf kids to satisfy them. It's the exact oppossite i'm sorry to tell you.

That may be true but that still doesn't detract from the fact that there are many people out there who will take in a child.

As I said earlier, even if there is a substantial difference between ≥24 weeks and ≤23 weeks, that fetus should be given the chance to develop into a living being (assuming that it already isn't). Getting rid of a (potential) life because of school or whatever is just shallow. If someone's going to have sex, they should at least be prepared to face the consequences and realise that out of that may emerge a life being formed.

The current foster care system isn't perfect, sure (it's seldom that anything in life is), but if you don't want a child, then why not just abstain from sexual intercourse, if the system's overflowing?

[Shaun]

Remember this, In America, black men got the right to vote BEFORE white women got the right to vote.

I don't know why I never knew this :o and by fifty years too...

[the truth]

Remember this, In America, black men got the right to vote BEFORE white women got the right to vote.

some states granted women the vote before this, however poor people had to wait longer 9thats men and women) who couldnt afford the poll taxes required to allow them to vote. even nowadays theres millions who cannot afford to vote. this keeps rich people (men and women) in power longer. the battle is rich v poor, not man v woman, its a shame youve been brainwashed not to realise this.

[lostalex]

some states granted women the vote before this, however poor people had to wait longer 9thats men and women) who couldnt afford the poll taxes required to allow them to vote. even nowadays theres millions who cannot afford to vote. this keeps rich people (men and women) in power longer. the battle is rich v poor, not man v woman, its a shame youve been brainwashed not to realise this.

It's a shame you can't see the truth, that rich or poor, black or white, women have ALWAYS been at the bottom of the totem pole.

[the truth]

It's a shame you can't see the truth, that rich or poor, black or white, women have ALWAYS been at the bottom of the totem pole.

like queen victoria? she was longer in power than most people lived their entire lives? cleopatra? Boudica? Eva Peron?Hatshetshup, the eqyptian pharoah over 500 years ago? Tomyris the iranian queen 1500 years ago? catherine the great? joan of arc? Ghandi.....where have you been?

strange how you claim to care about women 100s of years ago, yet show no care for poor young men dying in trenches in coal mines of black water fever on foreignb fields or leprasy dying young, for the disabled, or for babies murdered in the womb? did you shed a tear for your forefathers who got bullets in their brain at the normandy landings when fighting the greatest tyranny the worlds ever seen for YOUR future and mind
you call babies leeches and care not at all that a million have been aborted in 6 years in the UK alone, often as a lifestyle choice....you have told everyone never to have any sympathy for any man, total 100% bitter hateful discrimination, but you go on to preach against discrimination when it suits you, total hypocrisy.

oh but you do claim to care more about words like murdered , more than you care for the actual action of murdering? incidentally how would you feel about parents deciding to abort because they believe the baby would be gay?

[lostalex]

like queen victoria? she was longer in power than most people lived their entire lives? cleopatra? Boudica? Eva Peron?Hatshetshup, the eqyptian pharoah over 500 years ago? Tomyris the iranian queen 1500 years ago? catherine the great? joan of arc? Ghandi.....where have you been?

strange how you claim to care about women 100s of years ago, yet show no care for poor young men dying in trenches in coal mines of black water fever on foreignb fields or leprasy dying young, for the disabled, or for babies murdered in the womb? did you shed a tear for your forefathers who got bullets in their brain at the normandy landings when fighting the greatest tyranny the worlds ever seen for YOUR future and mind
you call babies leeches and care not at all that a million have been aborted in 6 years in the UK alone, often as a lifestyle choice....you have told everyone never to have any sympathy for any man, total 100% bitter hateful discrimination, but you go on to preach against discrimination when it suits you, total hypocrisy.

oh but you do claim to care more about words like murdered , more than you care for the actual action of murdering? incidentally how would you feel about parents deciding to abort because they believe the baby would be gay?

and all of those women you mentioned, were only allowed to be queens because there were no men that could take their place, in all of monarchy's heirarchy's, men were still above women, right?

In fact it was only last year(2012) that the british monarchy finally decided that women should be treated equal to men if the royal couple (wills and kate) have a daughter. right?

[lostalex]

to answer your last question, it would be impossible for a mother to abort a baby for being gay, because when a woman aborts a fetus it is not a baby. babies are not aborted, and babies are not "murdered" as you like to put it in the abortion process. Fetuses, or in most cases just clusters of cells are aborted. Babies are not aborted. A Baby is an infant human being, and there is no place in the world where murdering babies is legal or accepted in any way, shape, or form.

For someone to murder a baby because they thought it might be gay would of course be a horrible crime. The most horrific of crimes.

Did I answer your question?

[Redway]

to answer your last question, it would be impossible for a mother to abort a baby for being gay, because when a woman aborts a fetus it is not a baby. babies are not aborted, and babies are not "murdered" as you like to put it. Fetuses, or in most cases just clusters of cells are aborted. Babies are not aborted.

For someone to murder a baby because they thought it might be gay would of course be a horrible crime.

did i answer your question?

I agree with what you're saying but if it would be a horrible crime to abort a baby over sexual preferences (which it would be), so it would be to do so on the basis on the baby potentially having a disability (e.g. Down's syndrome).

[Kazanne]

to answer your last question, it would be impossible for a mother to abort a baby for being gay, because when a woman aborts a fetus it is not a baby. babies are not aborted, and babies are not "murdered" as you like to put it in the abortion process. Fetuses, or in most cases just clusters of cells are aborted. Babies are not aborted. A Baby is an infant human being, and there is no place in the world where murdering babies is legal.

For someone to murder a baby because they thought it might be gay would of course be a horrible crime.

did i answer your question?

Sometimes babies ARE aborted,wasn't there a pic doing the rounds at one time it was even on her I think.

[Jesus.]

Unless we can "abort" or "assist to death" the royal family, I reckon this thread might have wondered off topic!

[lostalex]

Sometimes babies ARE aborted,wasn't there a pic doing the rounds at one time it was even on her I think.


Well if it is in the last stages of development, then of course that is murder., BUt most countries have very specific limits on the difference between an abortion, and murdering a baby.


i don't know the actual number of weeks, but there are very specific laws based on science and facts that distinguishes between a fetus and a baby.

Any one who kills a baby, that is obviously inexcusable, no matter what the reason, be it because they are gay or whatever. There is a scientific definition and a legal definition of when a baby becomes a baby.

This is why it's so important that abortions are made legal and safe for all women. so that they can be done as soon as possible.

[lostalex]

If we are gonna be honest, i don't even remember anything when i was even a toddler, i don't remember having any awareness at all.

I think people need to stop projecting the idea of "consciousness" onto these tiny fetuses. They are not conscious. They arn't even human yet. Cows have more intelligence than a fetus... how many of you are vegetarians? do you eat cow? do you eat beef? if you eat beef then you are eating a creature with thousands of times more self awareness than an aborted fetus.

when you go vegan, then get back to me.

[Redway]

If we are gonna be honest, i don't even remember anything when i was even a toddler, i don't remember having any awareness at all.

I think people need to stop projecting the idea of "consciousness" onto these tiny fetuses. They are not conscious. They arn't even human yet. Cows have more intelligence than a fetus... how many of you are vegetarians? do you eat cow? do you eat beef? if you eat beef then you are eating a creature with thousands of times more self awareness than an aborted fetus.

when you go vegan, then get back to me.
Exactly: they aren't human yet but they will be and deserve a chance to fulfill that status.

[the truth]

and all of those women you mentioned, were only allowed to be queens because there were no men that could take their place, in all of monarchy's heirarchy's, men were still above women, right?

In fact it was only last year(2012) that the british monarchy finally decided that women should be treated equal to men if the royal couple (wills and kate) have a daughter. right?

thats the monarchys fault not men....again its a battle between rich and poor.

[the truth]

to answer your last question, it would be impossible for a mother to abort a baby for being gay, because when a woman aborts a fetus it is not a baby. babies are not aborted, and babies are not "murdered" as you like to put it in the abortion process. Fetuses, or in most cases just clusters of cells are aborted. Babies are not aborted. A Baby is an infant human being, and there is no place in the world where murdering babies is legal or accepted in any way, shape, or form.

For someone to murder a baby because they thought it might be gay would of course be a horrible crime. The most horrific of crimes.

Did I answer your question?

yes and in doing so again proved yourself a hypocrite....you dont care about murdering babies, but if its murdered because its potnetially gay then thats horrible? you make no sense.

[lostalex]

yes and in doing so again proved yourself a hypocrite....you dont care about murdering babies, but if its murdered because its potnetially gay then thats horrible? you make no sense.

that's not what i said. :nono:

[the truth]

that's not what i said. :nono:

it is. youre a hypocrite, you hate men and you said no one should ever have sympathy for any man, you called babies leeches and parasites and you think 1 million murdered babies in 6 years is fine and youre more concerned with the word murder than the actual act of murdering these innocent defenceless beautiful babies. obviously many of these murders are lifstyle chpoices, but if you think this murder happened because the mother thought her baby would be gay, then you think thats horrible? forget the other 1 million murdered babies? just the murdered of potentially gay babies is horrible in your opinion?

[lostalex]

it is. youre a hypocrite, you hate men

umm, I AM a man, so how could i hate men? So i hate myself, and i hate all the men that i have relationships with? You sound ridiculous.

[sassysocks]

but that's just it!, its the mother's choice not your's,you can be deeply in love plan for a baby you are then pregnant, and for whatever reason your partner decide's to end the the pregnancy you have no right's to stop her.

In that unfortunate situation, of course the mother has the final say, it is her body, her choice. Why would you think that your choice should trump hers when it is her body?

Apart from the obvious violation of her rights over her own body - what if she were forced to continue with the pregnancy, there were complictions and she died. That risk and that choice has to be hers alone.