Trans woman student abused and shoved out of toilets at Leeds University...

[Ammi]

A trans woman student at Leeds University was verbally abused and pushed out of the Student Union’s female toilets by two girls.

According to reports, Alexis, a Microbiology student who was transitioning from male to female, was shouted at and shoved in the chest by two girls, during a night called Fruity.

She said: “I’m very angry at those girls. I know better than anyone that I don’t look like a girl yet. Misgendering me is something I expect, but grabbing my breasts and shoving me is completely unacceptable.


“It’s wrong for a natural-born girl to insult a trans girl, especially one who prefers to dress more masculine, simply because she likes to. We’re doing the best we can – you’re lucky to have been born that way, and we can dress however we please, just like you”, Alexis added.

Security was called to the incident, which took place on Saturday evening, reports the Leeds Student.

A Leeds University Students’ Union spokesperson told this paper: “As a Union we support the right of transgender students to use the toilets in which they feel most comfortable. A member of our security team explained the situation to the two females and they said that they understood.”

Alexis, a second year student, did not wish to take any further action but added: “The security staff were excellent, and I really appreciate what they did”.

The University’s LGBT society had two trans welfare officers, and commented on the incident, saying: “The welfare of our members is the number one priority of our society and we’ve been working closely with the Union to raise awareness of the added struggles that Trans* people face.”

In 2010, a forum for the Students’ Union passed a motion to introduce gender-neutral toilets.

The Union’s Equality and Diversity officer, Charlie Hopper, said “Since the idea to create a gender neutral toilet passed in 2010 the Union has made progress in ensuring support for Trans* students, including Trans* awareness training for staff.”

Last year, a transgender male student in Ontario, Canada, was allegedly been barred from using the men’s toilet at school



http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/08/trans-woman-student-abused-and-shoved-out-of-toilets-at-leeds-university/

[arista]

Yes Students can be Evil.

Some Learn Nothing Good

[Omah]

A photograph might have been helpful.

Alexis is described as a Microbiology student who is transitioning from male to female, one who doesn’t look like a girl yet and who prefers to dress more masculine.

So, did she look like a man in the ladies toilets ..... :conf:

Were the two girls were strangers on campus ..... :conf:

[Kizzy]

Bit of a non story, girls in a bar thought there was a man in the toilets.. the situation was explained, end of.

[Ammi]

..I can't find any images Omah, but I did find this other article....

Quick question: do you know where the gender neutral toilet in the union is?

It wouldn’t surprise me if you said you didn’t. It’s further along the corridor from the ground floor men’s toilets, by the way.

It doesn’t really help trans* students, or indeed any other students who may need use of such a facility, if they’re in LGBT coffee hour, or in Fruity, though. And there is a genuine need for these facilities. For a trans* student, even going to the toilet is a tricky chore. They must first assess whether the risk of assault, harassment, or even arrest is worth going to the toilet, or the risk of medical conditions from holding it in is worth it. Then, they need to assess which toilets they use – do they use the toilets which matches their gender identity or the gender they were assigned at birth? And after that, when and where should they use the toilet? Whereas most people who use the toilet have the privilege to not have to think about these things, it’s a source of severe distress for trans* people.

And it really doesn’t help when someone is verbally abused and pushed, within our Union, for simply going to the toilet, and several hours after the launch of LGBT history month at that. While the bouncers quickly and correctly dealt with the situation, it still creates an atmosphere whereby if you look even remotely trans*, you’re going to have to deal with this sort of harassment. It’s not on. And it makes life much, much, harder for these sorts of people. It’s why half of all trans people avoid using public restrooms.

I wish I could say that this is an isolated incident, but it’s not. Back in 2008, several trans* women were denied access to the toilets at London Pride that, legally, they have a right to use, simply because they are transgender. So what hope do trans* people have if this is happening at a Pride event? Not much: in 2011, a transgender woman was attacked in a McDonalds in Baltimore, again, for using the toilet. The employees didn’t help her in that case; they filmed the attack on their phones instead. We’re lucky that the staff in the Union are trained not to do that.

I think we can agree that no student should be assaulted for using the toilet, no matter what the reasons. People use the toilets because, obviously, they need to engage in certain essential bodily functions. That’s the entire point. And in Fruity on a Friday evening, I don’t think a trans* person is going to do any harm at all by their presence in a bathroom. Despite transphobic people saying their presence is dangerous, no-one has been able to cite one case of a trans* person assaulting others –it’s always the other way around. I, personally, would be much more concerned about people who grope others on the dance floor, and create this culture where others, especially women, are under undue pressure to guard themselves.

There is a simple way in which we can lessen the strain on trans* students a little bit. By creating gender-neutral spaces where these students can avail themselves, and encouraging their use, we can help create a safer environment for students. And I’m happy that Leeds is among the universities with such facilities, but just one out-of-the-way toilet isn’t enough. We should be working to converting or building these spaces. We have a new library opening in 18 months, and I hope that it is built with these accessible spaces for trans* people.

When other universities have said that their refurbishment plan came with gender neutral toilets, the usual suspects raise their arms up in indignation. They decry it as political correctness gone mad, that the toilets would somehow make gender-specific toilets more dangerous for female students. But it’s not political correctness gone mad to look after our trans* students, whether they amount to five, fifty, or five thousand. It’s a matter of public safety. We’d be failing at basic humanity were we to not cater for them. And I sincerely hope that the Union never fails at basic humanity

http://www.leedsstudent.org/2013-02-15/comment/for-a-trans-student-even-going-to-the-toilet-is-a-tricky-chore

[Marc]

Bit of a non story, girls in a bar thought there was a man in the toilets.. the situation was explained, end of.

She was assaulted :crazy:

[Kizzy]

She was assaulted :crazy:

Don't post your crazy smiley at me marc, were you there?..
No need to get all militant about it, they thought there was a man in the ladies, the situation was explained and the issue was resolved. End of.

[Marc]

Hmm can't help but feel you're just being awkward for the sake of it. And there's no end of just because you say so.

[AnnieK]

Two girls assaulted someone...whether they thought he was a man or not, there were two of the so should have either got security or asked what he was doing. They should never have laid hands on the person IMO.

[Marc]

Two girls assaulted someone...whether they thought it was a ma or. Not, there were two of the so should have either got security or asked what he was doing. They should never have laid hands on the person IMO.

Exactly, violence is never the answer. No matter how simple it seems to be accepted by some people.

[Kizzy]

Hmm can't help but feel you're just being awkward for the sake of it. And there's no end of just because you say so.

You suggested I was crazy for my opinion marc how awkward is that?
I meant that was the end of the altercation not the discussion.

[Me. I Am Salman]

I don't think it's an LGBT issue since she still looked like a man. Just a normal case of assault.

[Suze]

How many times have one of us or others wandered into the wrong loos, it happens, but doesn't warrant a physical attack. Although Alexis in the news item never wandered into the wrong toilets, but the two women in there could have questioned the reason for Alexis being in there rather than just physically attacking Alexis surely. It says more about them as people to do that.

[Kizzy]

Pushing is not assault.

[Glenn.]

Pushing is not assault.

How do you know it was just a push? :suspect:

[Z]

I'm with kizzy on this one

[Glenn.]

Besides even if it was just a push its still assault.

It's intentionally touching someone and shoving them when they do not wish to be touched.

[Redway]

What Kizzy said.

I'm sure if they were aware of the LGBT issue they wouldn't have done any of that.

Besides, a push is hardly a beating up, is it? That's if it was just a push, mind. Anything further than that should definitely be classed as assault.

[Suze]

Besides even if it was just a push its still assault.

It's intentionally touching someone and shoving them when they do not wish to be touched.

Exactly, Glenn.

[AnnieK]

Putting your hands on another person without permission can be classed as assault...

I would class it as assault if someone pushed me in the chest out of a bathroom...

[Glenn.]

Putting your hands on another person without permission can be classed as assault...

I would class it as assault if someone pushed me in the chest out of a bathroom...

It is classed as assault.

[Benjamin]

I'm with kizzy on this one

I have to say, so am I.

You have to factor in that they were all at a club, so alcohol comes into play as well. I don't believe it was a trans-phobia (is that what it is) issue, but a case of them thinking a man was in the female toilets.

[Kizzy]

It isn't classed as anything as no arrests were made, it was a misunderstanding in a toilet which was resolved without escalation.
Wow Charlie Brooker was right, there really is nothing that people won't be outraged against, horrified at or personally offended by is there?

[MTVN]

Yeah I agree that it's not really case of them being discriminatory, they were probably drunk and found it a bit creepy seeing what they thought was a man hanging around in the female toilets, if people were arrested for assault every time someone got a push on a night out half the country would have a criminal record

[Shasown]

It isn't classed as anything as no arrests were made, it was a misunderstanding in a toilet which was resolved without escalation.
Wow Charlie Brooker was right, there really is nothing that people won't be outraged against, horrified at or personally offended by is there?

Bet old George Michael wishes he had the same breaks.

[Ninastar]

agree with Kizzy. Media seems to love these 'scumbag hates on black/gay/trans etc person' stories now.

[Shasown]

It isn't classed as anything as no arrests were made, it was a misunderstanding in a toilet which was resolved without escalation.
Wow Charlie Brooker was right, there really is nothing that people won't be outraged against, horrified at or personally offended by is there?

Doesnt matter whether arrests were made or not, someone grabbing or even touching without valid reason is still assault.

Allegations and then charges can be made for a good while afterwards. Once the PC claims people get on the case, those two girls could find themselves in court.

[Kizzy]

Doesnt matter whether arrests were made or not, someone grabbing or even touching without valid reason is still assault.

Allegations and then charges can be made for a good while afterwards. Once the PC claims people get on the case, those two girls could find themselves in court.

They may argue they had a valid reason? But you could be right, there are some very unscrupulous lawyers about that make these cases their bread and butter.

[Ninastar]

if you were drunk (even not drunk) and there was what you thought a man in the toilets, you'd freak out. You hear all kinds of horrible things happening during any time of the day.

[lostalex]

Even if it was a man using the women's room, is it such a big deal that it would justify assualting him? I've used the women's room many times, never had a problem. They usually just look embarassed for me, i think they assume i accidentally went to the wrong bathroom. Sometimes the men's room is just such a disaster zone i use the women's room. not a big deal.

[Ammi]

..I think for me, posting this story is less about this particular incident and more to discuss transgender in general..whether someone is considered a male/female, when going through the transformation in such simple things like which loo do they use...when I post news stories in serious debates, sometimes it's because they interest me or are generally 'newsworthy' and sometimes it's just things I hadn't thought of that maybe are part of some people's everyday lives and I feel, maybe I should think about them more, so am always interested in other people's views etc...I don't think this was a National news thing but something just in the local student news (I got it off another site) and until Luke became a HM in BB12, I hadn't really thought much about transgender..it's interesting and thought provoking as well with the 'sexuality' thread...because lots of people struggle so much with having their sexuality 'accepted'...it's very sad and shouldn't still happen in 2013..but 'progress' seems to be very slow in these things...

EDIT:..oh, I should say as well that whatever the specific story..abortion, capital punishment etc..I know these things have all been done before but it's still nice to get a general discussion going....

[Kizzy]

There will always be ignorance and confusion around things that go against our own cultural and social norms, things are changing due to raising awareness and education.
As a nation I would say we are on the whole much more accepting of differing sexual orientation, religious beliefs and political attitudes now.

[MTVN]

A lot of places are beginning to install "gender neutral" toilets now, I was reading the other day about how Brighton city council is planning to introduce them everywhere and gradually phase out men and women's separate toilets. I'm not sure if that's really necessary though and could have the effect of putting off more people using them

[Ammi]

..have they got them at Norwich MTVN..?...

[Kizzy]

They have them in Leeds...
''Quick question: do you know where the gender neutral toilet in the union is?

It wouldn’t surprise me if you said you didn’t. It’s further along the corridor from the ground floor men’s toilets, by the way.''

[MTVN]

As far as I know they don't have them yet, though I did read in the student newspaper that they were going to introduce them at the university, I'm not sure when that is though. Im not opposed to them but think it's better if they're there as an alternative to single sex toilets rather than as a replacement for them

[Omah]

As far as I know they don't have them yet, though I did read in the student newspaper that they were going to introduce them at the university, I'm not sure when that is though. Im not opposed to them but think it's better if they're there as an alternative to single sex toilets rather than as a replacement for them

That's probably a cheaper option, too - which will, inevitably, be a major consideration.

[Kizzy]

There would be no question of them ever being the only option anyway... Some groups would insist on gender specific toilets I would think.

[Omah]

There would be no question of them ever being the only option anyway... Some groups would insist on gender specific toilets I would think.

Me and my group would - we're very rude and very smelly - we wouldn't like to upset any ladies ..... :laugh2:

[Kizzy]

Me and my group would - we're very rude and very smelly - we wouldn't like to upset any ladies ..... :laugh2:

Well there you are then, you're happy they're happy everyone is happy :pipe:

[Niall]

Even if they did mistake her for a man, I still regard shoving someone out of the toilets assault. Alcohol may have been involved, but they still intentionally shoved her out of the toilets.

It's not transphobic per se, but then again it's not exactly right to shove someone out of a room like that either. Ideally the two girls would have confronted her about it or called in security.

[Kizzy]

Even if they did mistake her for a man, I still regard shoving someone out of the toilets assault. Alcohol may have been involved, but they still intentionally shoved her out of the toilets.

It's not transphobic per se, but then again it's not exactly right to shove someone out of a room like that either. Ideally the two girls would have confronted her about it or called in security.

Yeah but.... this is Leeds, we shove first and ask questions later :joker:

[Glenn.]

Well done you then :idc:

[Kizzy]

Well done you then :idc:

Fanks glenn! :D

[Glenn.]

That's ok. I appreciate people who push other people around and think its right :idc:

[Kizzy]

Do you, who do you know that does that then?

[Me. I Am Salman]

Even if it was a man using the women's room, is it such a big deal that it would justify assualting him? I've used the women's room many times, never had a problem. They usually just look embarassed for me, i think they assume i accidentally went to the wrong bathroom. Sometimes the men's room is just such a disaster zone i use the women's room. not a big deal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/2095c354.gif

you really are unbelievably self-centered

[Redway]

I really don't understand why people are making a big deal of this "pushing" thing. I dare say that if this transphobia thing wasn't involved, this wouldn't have even made the headlines.

They had probably had a drink or two and freaked out when they saw a member of the opposite sex using a girls' toilet (and understandably so). It would happen any other night with anyone else, most probably.

It's as simple as that.

[AnnieK]

I really don't understand why people are making a big deal of this "pushing" thing. I dare say that if this transphobia thing wasn't involved, this wouldn't have even made the headlines.

They had probably had a drink or two and freaked out when they saw a member of the opposite sex using a girls' toilet (and understandably so). It would happen any other night with anyone else, most probably.

It's as simple as that.

Why would you freak out though seeing a guy in the ladies especially as there were two of them thats the bit I don't understand??. Maybe Manchester is much more metropolitan than I thought but it's not that unusual to see people in the opposite bathrooms in clubs and I've never once seen anyone freak about it.

[Redway]

Why would you freak out though seeing a guy in the ladies especially as there were two of them thats the bit I don't understand??. Maybe Manchester is much more metropolitan than I thought but it's not that unusual to see people in the opposite bathrooms in clubs and I've never once seen anyone freak about it.

It's definitely quite odd and I agree that it isn't really tantamount to lashing out on someone to such an extent. I just put it down to the alcohol. It was probably drink-fueled, which may aggravate otherwise negligible scenarios.

[AnnieK]

It's definitely quite odd and I agree that it isn't really tantamount to lashing out on someone to such an extent. I just put it down to the alcohol. It was probably drink-fueled, which may aggravate otherwise negligible scenarios.

Yes, you are probably right....Alcohol will most probably have been a factor and I agree it wouldn't have made any type of student website or news had it not been for the fact that the student pushed was transgender.

[Kizzy]

Exactly the point ben made yesterday.

[AnnieK]

My comment was directed to redway really Kizzy, following on from my earlier comment about I find it hard to believe why they would freak out...I am sorry if you felt I was plagiarising someone elses comment

[Kizzy]

My comment was directed to redway really Kizzy, following on from my earlier comment about I find it hard to believe why they would freak out...I am sorry if you felt I was plagiarising someone elses comment

I didn't but now you mention it.......;)
We have no idea why these women were so offended by this person, who in fairness resembled a man from the description we have.
The incident seems to be morphing into a fight scene from a hollywood blockbuster though....just saying.

[lostalex]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/korn0818/2095c354.gif

you really are unbelievably self-centered


how do you figure?