Could Wednesday's Daily Mail front page be any more disgusting?

[Jack_]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BG4BT3hCAAAjizG.jpg:large

:yuk:

What an abhorrent publication this really is.

[Jack_]

Actually I've just realised this should probably be in Serious Debates & News Stories...it's habit...could a mod move it please?

[joeysteele]

No Jack it couldn't but it is a truly rotten paper out of the gutter anyway.
The sooner it is thrown into the gutter for good and left there the better.

[joeysteele]

Actually I've just realised this should probably be in Serious Debates & News Stories...it's habit...could a mod move it please?

It could be right to have in in chat and games Jack, it is mostly pure fiction as to its reporting anyway.:hugesmile:

[King Gizzard]

but the sad truth

http://i.imgur.com/8NhS8fJ.jpg

[Jack_]

It could be right to have in in chat and games Jack, it is mostly pure fiction as to its reporting anyway.:hugesmile:

Good point :thumbs:

but the sad truth

http://i.imgur.com/8NhS8fJ.jpg

Well yeah I agree, but this is a frontpage so slightly different to an online article

[King Gizzard]

It's still going to circulate like crazy tomorrow, so they won't care one bit

it'd be nice if some of their more respected journalists if there is any boycotted or resigned from their jobs

[Nedusa]

For the daily Mail this is manna from heaven

[the truth]

The question has to be asked, what are the social services for if they dont even manage to get children away from people like the philpotts.

[Kizzy]

Disgusting, exploiting the deaths of those children to score political points in their sickening new right agenda.

[the truth]

Disgusting, exploiting the deaths of those children to score political points in their sickening new right agenda.


I think we should be more concerned with how disgusting the philpotts are.

I think this article was worded poorly, but lets not hide from the truth. the truth is this scumbag was supported by the benefits system which institutionalized his behaviour for many years. in fact in the end it was the fear of losing his benefits which was allegedly part of the motivation behind this tragedy.

[Kizzy]

I think we should be more concerned with how disgusting the philpotts are.

I think this article was worded poorly, but lets not hide from the truth. the truth is this scumbag was supported by the benefits system which institutionalized his behaviour for many years. in fact in the end it was the fear of losing his benefits which was allegedly part of the motivation behind this tragedy.


Are you suggesting that he was in some kind of poverty trap? that his life chances were so poor and he was so poorly socialised and educated that he felt unable to function as a member of society?

Yes the phillpots lifestyle left a lot to be desired, however to spin this case as a means to demonise, stigmatise and stereotype a whole cross section of society is ridiculous and wrong.

[Vicky.]

Its the mail. Nothing surprises me anymore with that ****ing rag

This story is so tragic, but to blame it all on benefits is just absolutely pathetic. A new low for the gutter press.

[the truth]

Are you suggesting that he was in some kind of poverty trap? that his life chances were so poor and he was so poorly socialised and educated that he felt unable to function as a member of society?

Yes the phillpots lifestyle left a lot to be desired, however to spin this case as a means to demonise, stigmatise and stereotype a whole cross section of society is ridiculous and wrong.

no did I say that?

Im saying the benefits culture supported his disgusting lifestyle, it allowed him to breed endlessly , to have 11 kids in a 3 bedroom house, breeding dogs, chasing women, being controlling and abusive. in the end it appears he did what he did to ensure his benefits lifestyle continued. I think its right to question this.

[Kizzy]

no did I say that?

Im saying the benefits culture supported his disgusting lifestyle, it allowed him to breed endlessly , to have 11 kids in a 3 bedroom house, breeding dogs, chasing women, being controlling and abusive. in the end it appears he did what he did to ensure his benefits lifestyle continued. I think its right to question this.

Benefits did not make him controlling or abusive and they don't make people breed endlessly then commit infantacide.
This was one case.

The mail whipping people into a frenzy they are affronted by those poor unfortunates they see as the scourge of society, benefit claimants...
The new 'folk devil' of 2013 and we stand in awe of the moral panic as it sweeps the old, the young, the disabled and the handicapped along in the conservative 'new broom' as they do their 'spring cleaning'.

[the truth]

Benefits did not make him controlling or abusive and they don't make people breed endlessly then commit infantacide.
This was one case.

The mail whipping people into a frenzy they are affronted by those poor unfortunates they see as the scourge of society, benefit claimants...
The new 'folk devil' of 2013 and we stand in awe of the moral panic as it sweeps the old, the young, the disabled and the handicapped along in the conservative 'new broom' as they do their 'spring cleaning'.

the only one whipping up a frenzy is you. the benfits encouraged and rewarded his breeding of kids and dogs. in the end he got so used to these handouts he became desperate to hold onto them and to increase them. youre also being hysterical about saying all diabled people are being targetted, theyre not. the government are simply trying to seperate the genuinely sick and disabled from the workshy scivers like this dreadful man and his wife.

with his criminal record and history, why the social services didnt step in earlier who knows. the kids should have been taken and the benefits reduced. how on earth can 11 kids 2 adults and dogs all live safely in a 3 bedroom house anyway.


the fact you choose not to discuss the heiniousness of the crime and instead choose to dwell on the benefits suggests youre missing the point here. this disgusting man and his awful wifes disgusting lifestyle was supported and rewarded by the benefits system. no one says everyone is the same as this but he is a prime example of the type of disgusting lifestyle too much dependency can create, support and sustain.

[Kizzy]

]the only one whipping up a frenzy is you[/B]. the benfits encouraged and rewarded his breeding of kids and dogs. in the end he got so used to these handouts he became desperate to hold onto them and to increase them. youre also being hysterical about saying all diabled people are being targetted, theyre not. the government are simply trying to seperate the genuinely sick and disabled from the workshy scivers like this dreadful man and his wife.

with his criminal record and history, why the social services didnt step in earlier who knows. the kids should have been taken and the benefits reduced. how on earth can 11 kids 2 adults and dogs all live safely in a 3 bedroom house anyway.


the fact you choose not to discuss the heiniousness of the crime and instead choose to dwell on the benefits suggests youre missing the point here. this disgusting man and his awful wifes disgusting lifestyle was supported and rewarded by the benefits system. no one says everyone is the same as this but he is a prime example of the type of disgusting lifestyle too much dependency can create, support and sustain.

I'm being hysterical? I responded to the thread as I saw fit please don't get personally offensive.
The thread is not dealing with how evil this act is, it is in response to the tabloids using this case to influence public opinion against certain groups.

[the truth]

The newspaper has every right to highlight how this disgusting man and womans horrific lifestyle was funded by and institutionalized by the benefits culture. the vast majority of hard working people could never have afforded 17 children and dog breeding. the benefits culture is inextricably tied in with this tragic story. the fact this offends some people who are on benefits is irrelevant. those people who are somehow offended by this connection being made are deluded. they need to forget their own egos and how sensitive they are to this debate. as its a debate that ha sbeen brushed under the carpet for decades. It must be discussed. these people do not deserve to have their disgusting lifestyles funded by the hard work of other honest good living people. if you want 17 kids and dogs you must earn enough money to support them in living a decent healthy life. if you cant do that then the children should be taken from these people asap

[Jack_]

Yeah um I'm not on benefits love so have no personal sensitivity to this but it's still a repugnant headline so yeah x

[Marc]

Everytime I see those childs I feel sad. BBC News showed a video clip of them all playing and it hurt to watch, knowing they were dead :(

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/4/2/230029/default/v1/030413-papers-guardian-1-329x437.jpg
Jack the same story is in here

Whats your Problem,

[arista]

The newspaper has every right to highlight how this disgusting man and womans horrific lifestyle was funded by and institutionalized by the benefits culture. the vast majority of hard working people could never have afforded 17 children and dog breeding. the benefits culture is inextricably tied in with this tragic story. the fact this offends some people who are on benefits is irrelevant. those people who are somehow offended by this connection being made are deluded. they need to forget their own egos and how sensitive they are to this debate. as its a debate that ha sbeen brushed under the carpet for decades. It must be discussed. these people do not deserve to have their disgusting lifestyles funded by the hard work of other honest good living people. if you want 17 kids and dogs you must earn enough money to support them in living a decent healthy life. if you cant do that then the children should be taken from these people asap



Bang On Right

[arista]

You are insane.


No he is not
Do not say that



This Forum needs all views
not just Jack and his Labour party

[Jesus.]

No he is not
Do not say that



This Forum needs all views
not just Jack and his Labour party

I agree that this forum needs differing views as threads of people agreeing constantly would get pretty dull.

Doesn't mean he gets a free pass for saying some horrific things. Benefits wasn't the problem with this family. They had some serious mental health issues between them. Their family set up, the fact he was whoring out his wife to his friend etc. Those are far more telling issues than his benefit payments.

Take his benefit payments away, and do you think he's suddenly a great father, and they become England's version of the Waltons?

[arista]

I agree that this forum needs differing views as threads of people agreeing constantly would get pretty dull.

Doesn't mean he gets a free pass for saying some horrific things. Benefits wasn't the problem with this family. They had some serious mental health issues between them. Their family set up, the fact he was whoring out his wife to his friend etc. Those are far more telling issues than his benefit payments.

Take his benefit payments away, and do you think he's suddenly a great father, and they become England's version of the Waltons?


No only on these threads

I assume he would sell his kids if no benefits
Evil to the Core

And he went on JK ITV1

[GiRTh]

Are the Mail saying that being a benefit cheat was why he killed his kids? I fail to see why they are pointing out his benefits lifestyle. Mick Phillpott is a controlling,. manipulative psycho. He could be a lawyer, a van driver or a benefits cheat the nature of his psychotic tendencies has nothing to do with his lifestyle.

[Vicky.]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/4/2/230029/default/v1/030413-papers-guardian-1-329x437.jpg
Jack the same story is in here

Whats your Problem,

But that story doesnt try to make out it was because he was on benefits..as far as I can tell by the front page. That was the problem. The story in itself is absolutely horrific, the parents are monsters. But to make out that its because he is on benefits is absolutely disgusting, which was the point of this thread.

The newspaper has every right to highlight how this disgusting man and womans horrific lifestyle was funded by and institutionalized by the benefits culture. the vast majority of hard working people could never have afforded 17 childrenand dog breeding. the benefits culture is inextricably tied in with this tragic story. the fact this offends some people who are on benefits is irrelevant. those people who are somehow offended by this connection being made are deluded. they need to forget their own egos and how sensitive they are to this debate. as its a debate that ha sbeen brushed under the carpet for decades. It must be discussed. these people do not deserve to have their disgusting lifestyles funded by the hard work of other honest good living people. if you want 17 kids and dogs you must earn enough money to support them in living a decent healthy life. if you cant do that then the children should be taken from these people asap
You realise this case was literally one in a million? (I mean the benefit situation, not anything else)

These figures are from the daily mail, so they might be exagerrated somewhat too...but here you go.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255203/200-families-claiming-housing-benefit-10-children-taxpayers-face-150million-benefit-broods.html

Families with 10 children...there are 30 of them in the entire country who are recieving JSA. It is unclear how many of those had the kids when they could afford them too.

Any more that 10 kids...and there is no-one 'unemployed' (besides the a few disabled people, who cant work) with that many. Income support is an in work benefit in the majority of cases. Unless the parent is a single parent.

Now. That doesnt make this story any less tragic. And the benefits argument takes away from what this story is really about. But I hate when people seem to think there are loads of massive families in the uk who just keep having kids for more money, despite not having a job.


The parents of these children are absolute *****. I dont think anyone would deny that. No child should have to go through what those kids did/are, and RIP to the ones who did not survive. But to link what they did with recieving benefits is terrible. But I would expect nothing less of the mail and its readers.

[Nedusa]

The newspaper has every right to highlight how this disgusting man and womans horrific lifestyle was funded by and institutionalized by the benefits culture. the vast majority of hard working people could never have afforded 17 children and dog breeding. the benefits culture is inextricably tied in with this tragic story. the fact this offends some people who are on benefits is irrelevant. those people who are somehow offended by this connection being made are deluded. they need to forget their own egos and how sensitive they are to this debate. as its a debate that ha sbeen brushed under the carpet for decades. It must be discussed. these people do not deserve to have their disgusting lifestyles funded by the hard work of other honest good living people. if you want 17 kids and dogs you must earn enough money to support them in living a decent healthy life. if you cant do that then the children should be taken from these people asap

Good Post , I totally agree this madness has gone on now for decades, the Welfare state was set up after the War to help people re-adjust to life and act as a short term safety net for poor families with disabled or sick breadwinners (the effects of the War were felt for decades).

It was not ever meant to fund generation after generation of idle work shy spongers, it is not meant to provide a lifestyle choice for people who choose not to work. If you look at countries that do not have a welfare/benefits system if you don't work then you don't EAT so people who can work usually do.

This vile man an extreme example of everything that is wrong with our Welfare system, he gambled with his children's lives just to try and keep them with him so he could carry on spending their child benefit, it was also reported that he thought the fire damage would mean he would get a much larger house.

The fact that he talked his wife and another friend into going along with this dangerously stupid plan speaks volumes about his control over people.

I hope they all receive life sentences (max allowed for Manslaughter) and I hope the Judge recommends he is not released for at least 25 years.

At least now he doesn't have to worry about his board and lodgings...!!!!!

[arista]

"These figures are from the daily mail, so they might be exagerrated somewhat too."


Yes Vicky
but its got backing on Every TV News
even live now on ITV1HD Loose Women.
DM photo page used


On BBCNews Live
Ann Widdecombe talking about when she stayed with them

[joeysteele]

Crumbs arista what a combination, Loose Women and Ann Widdecombe,I would avoid even listening to either of them.
Ann widdecombe like Ian Duncan Smith is another one who bleats on about their faith and Christianity yet are the biggest turn offs to it.

A far more balanced and sensible approach to this tragedy is the thrust of the Guardian reporting of it whereas the Mails is just despicable.

[arista]

Yes the Guardian is OK


But the DM front page gets on FoxNewsHD ,CNNAmerica
and NDTV24x7 India

[Vicky.]

"These figures are from the daily mail, so they might be exagerrated somewhat too."


Yes Vicky
but its got backing on Every TV News
even live now on ITV1HD Loose Women.
DM photo page used


On BBCNews Live
Ann Widdecombe talking about when she stayed with them

I meant the figures about how many people who dont work who actually have loads of children :p

Taking one extreme case like this and trying to smear all claimants the same is just plain wrong.

The worst thing about this whole story, is the parents (I do not care how many people say the wife was talked into it...shes just as evil as he is and should get the same sentance) should be locked up for the rest of their lives. And I fear they will get short sentences due to the softness of our 'justice' system.

[Kizzy]

Wow the tabloids really do what they say on the tin don't they?
I am shocked and stunned at how they influence people, and how aggressively they do it too.

[arista]

"smear all claimants the same is just plain wrong."


Yes it is Vicky.
you have that right.

[arista]

Wow the tabloids really do what they say on the tin don't they?
I am shocked and stunned at how they influence people, and how aggressively they do it too.


Yes but it gets the Readers all over this World.

[joeysteele]

Wow the tabloids really do what they say on the tin don't they?
I am shocked and stunned at how they influence people, and how aggressively they do it too.

They don't and never will influence me at all though Kizzy, I do read sometimes articles but I know my own mind and as for the likes of the Daily Mail I have absolutely no time for at all.

Also the Sun, with their old dinosaur Trevor Kavanagh,I don't think I have agreed more than 5 times with him on anything political.

I do agree though, they do seem to influence people and to me that is worrying since much of the press has an agenda and also reports in a biased way.

[Niamh.]

I meant the figures about how many people who dont work who actually have loads of children :p

Taking one extreme case like this and trying to smear all claimants the same is just plain wrong.

The worst thing about this whole story, is the parents (I do not care how many people say the wife was talked into it...shes just as evil as he is and should get the same sentance) should be locked up for the rest of their lives. And I fear they will get short sentences due to the softness of our 'justice' system.

Absolutely, standing back and letting someone put your children in danger (and them actually ending up dead) is as bad as lighting the match yourself imo. Disgusting excuse of a human being and mother

[Kizzy]

Then they will always win, whatever the government try to do that goes against any moral or social responsibility, to the ill and the old as well as the jobless as these reforms are far reaching and have an impact on them too..
Yet all we hear and see is stories like this and pictures of single mothers, when will we have a true representation of those in the benefits system?

[GiRTh]

Absolutely, standing back and letting someone put your children in danger (and them actually ending up dead) is as bad as lighting the match yourself imo. Disgusting excuse of a human being and motherI have some sympathy with the wife - Not much but some - He stabbed one woman 12 times who dared to leave him in 1978 and the other woman who left him he tried to frame her for the fire. He is the main culprit but, for sure, his wife must take some of the blame.

Men like him are, in my experience, very rarely single. My aunt had an abusive relationship with a guy and when she finally left him we found out less than 6 months later that he'd re-married. He was a charmer so we weren't that surprised. Men like Philpott prey on weak and vulnerable - and usually - young women so I give them some slack.

Philpott is total scum. To hatch the plan to start the fire then be the hero is incredible. Did he not see the obvious flaws in his plan? Clearly not, he was a psycho who would stop at nothing to get what he wanted. No matter who got hurt or even killed. Hope he rots in jail.

[Niamh.]

I have some sympathy with the wife - Not much but some - He stabbed one woman 12 times who dared to leave him in 1978 and the other woman who left him he tried to frame her for the fire. He is the main culprit but, for sure, his wife must take some of the blame.

Men like him are, in my experience, very rarely single. My aunt had an abusive relationship with a guy and when she finally left him we found out less than 6 months later that he'd re-married. He was a charmer so we weren't that surprised. Men like Philpott prey on weak and vulnerable - and usually - young women so I give them some slack.

Philpott is total scum. To hatch the plan to start the fire then be the hero is incredible. Did he not see the obvious flaws in his plan? Clearly not, he was a psycho who would stop at nothing to get what he wanted. No matter who got hurt or even killed. Hope he rots in jail.

I see your points, It's just as a mother myself I couldn't imagine standing back and letting someone put my kids in danger like that, even if by disagreeing it put my own life in danger. Mothers should be willing to die for their kids imo

[GiRTh]

I see your points, It's just as a mother myself I couldn't imagine standing back and letting someone put my kids in danger like that, even if by disagreeing it put my own life in danger. Mothers should be willing to die for their kids imo

I agree.

[the truth]

I meant the figures about how many people who dont work who actually have loads of children :p

Taking one extreme case like this and trying to smear all claimants the same is just plain wrong.

The worst thing about this whole story, is the parents (I do not care how many people say the wife was talked into it...shes just as evil as he is and should get the same sentance) should be locked up for the rest of their lives. And I fear they will get short sentences due to the softness of our 'justice' system.

no one is saying that? only you have mentioned that?
there are however thousands tens of thousands who deliberately milk the system to have kids free homes, free everything , brreed dogs and live a disgusting lazy lifestyle of zero work and no ambition or achievement. these people disgust me and this clown is the worst type of example. to simply avoid discussing it for fear of offending someone on benefits would be wholly wrong. theses people are revolting and its disgusting the hard work of good people should pay to sustain and rewar this disgusting lifestyle. I feel especially sorry for the kids too.

[the truth]

Then they will always win, whatever the government try to do that goes against any moral or social responsibility, to the ill and the old as well as the jobless as these reforms are far reaching and have an impact on them too..
Yet all we hear and see is stories like this and pictures of single mothers, when will we have a true representation of those in the benefits system?

everyone is a true representation. Its wrong to have kids and expect the government to pay for all the bills, its also a disgusting example to show children to show them you dont have to work, you can just ask for handouts. people who cant afford children shouldnt have them or should allow them to be adopted.

[Vicky.]

no one is saying that? only you have mentioned that?
there are however thousands tens of thousands who deliberately milk the system to have kids free homes, free everything , brreed dogs and live a disgusting lazy lifestyle of zero work and no ambition or achievement. these people disgust me and this clown is the worst type of example. to simply avoid discussing it for fear of offending someone on benefits would be wholly wrong. theses people are revolting and its disgusting the hard work of good people should pay to sustain and rewar this disgusting lifestyle. I feel especially sorry for the kids too.

Do you have proof that tens of thousands have kids just to have free homes? I would like to see it as its something I have seen written quite regularly yet have never seen anything to actually back it up.

The bit in bold is ridiculous. Noone has said discussion about it has to be avoided so as not to offend those on benefits. The problem is the deliberately provocative headline/story in the sun, that makes out that this happened because of benefits.

The father was employed as a soldier at the time he almost stabbed a woman to death in 1978....long before any of these children came along.

Following the Mail's logic here.. was that crime because he was "a product of the British Army"?

He was a sick individual long before he started claiming benefits. To say this is a 'product of the welfare' state makes no sense whatsoever.

Also the mail forgot to mention that the family were in work. The man might not have worked, but the women did. Both women in the story worked and recieved tax credits along with wages. Its not a case of just 'breeding' and expecting others to pay.

[Vicky.]

A balanced view on this headline

Well worth a read

http://www.newstatesman.com/alan-white/2013/04/was-tragedy-really-vile-product-welfare-uk


On a side note, perhaps it would be a better idea to have two seperate threads on this. One about the mails disgusting and inappropriate choice of wording, and another about the actual tragedy. So that the two dont get mixed up. It doesnt really feel right to be arguing about benefits when the real issue here is that 6 innocent children were killed :/

[Niall]

It's abhorrent to see them exploiting such a sad story to flog their age old propaganda that is 'the benefits system is ruining the country'.

[joeysteele]

It's abhorrent to see them exploiting such a sad story to flog their age old propaganda that is 'the benefits system is ruining the country'.

Fully agree with you.

[the truth]

It's abhorrent to see them exploiting such a sad story to flog their age old propaganda that is 'the benefits system is ruining the country'.

I fully disagree with you. the only thing abohorrent here is the 3 adults who brought on this tragedy. its high time scum like this and the system that supports their disgusting lifestyles were brought to book

[AnnieK]

The abhorrent thing in this story is that these children lost their lives. For me it would equally abhorrent if they had been three fully employed adults...the fact that they were benefit claimants is by the by for me when these innocent children lost their chance to grow up.

[Jake.]

The abhorrent thing in this story is that these children lost their lives. For me it would equally abhorrent if they had been three fully employed adults...the fact that they were benefit claimants is by the by for me when these innocent children lost their chance to grow up.

This, couldn't have put it better

[Vicky.]

The abhorrent thing in this story is that these children lost their lives. For me it would equally abhorrent if they had been three fully employed adults...the fact that they were benefit claimants is by the by for me when these innocent children lost their chance to grow up.

Exactly.

[the truth]

The abhorrent thing in this story is that these children lost their lives. For me it would equally abhorrent if they had been three fully employed adults...the fact that they were benefit claimants is by the by for me when these innocent children lost their chance to grow up.

would this idiot have been in a position where he had 17 children (11 under one roof), brreding dogs, several women on the go, showing off about his abusive cheating ways on tv, if the benefit system hadnt been economically funding his entire lifestyle. the benefits which in the end he was so scared to lose, they were in fact part of the reason he did what he did which lead to the deaths of these innocent children.

I find it abhorrent that people on here cannot see this and are using this tragedy to support their pro welfare benefits agenda without pointing to the truth, that the benefits system funded this pigs lifestyle and was a crucial part of the reason he got away with his behaviour for so many years and was part of the reason 6 innocent children died

[Vanessa]

Poor kids! :(

[Vicky.]

If he was so evil because of the benefits system, then how does anyone explain his conviction for attempted murder in 1978 when he was in employment?

As I said earlier, as he was a soldier at that time, was that crime the fault of the army?


Hes just narcissitic monster. I believe this whole thing was more about control than benefits. If you read the BBC story about this it has a lot of details.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-21519890

He tried to frame his ex to punish her for leaving him IMHO. The benefits may have been a part of it...but it was more about control. I reckon this would have still happened whether there were benefits involved or not.

Also I have to say, after reading a bit more about it, I do have a bit of sympathy for the mother of the kids. Though not much.

[AnnieK]

would this idiot have been in a position where he had 17 children (11 under one roof), brreding dogs, several women on the go, showing off about his abusive cheating ways on tv, if the benefit system hadnt been economically funding his entire lifestyle. the benefits which in the end he was so scared to lose, they were in fact part of the reason he did what he did which lead to the deaths of these innocent children.

I find it abhorrent that people on here cannot see this and are using this tragedy to support their pro welfare benefits agenda without pointing to the truth, that the benefits system funded this pigs lifestyle and was a crucial part of the reason he got away with his behaviour for so many years and was part of the reason 6 innocent children died

I agree his lifestyle was unacceptable but it doesn't change the fact that these children died but for me the fact remains that he killed these children and that Is the crux of the story. Focusing on his lifestyle takes away from the fact that these children lost their chance to live and it saddens me that people are talking more about the fact that he was claiming benefits than the fact that the children died.

As I said previously I couldn't care less that he was on benefits it makes no odds to me, there have been plenty of professional business people who have committed infanticide and I feel as much loathing towards them. Any parent who can take the life of a child that they created deserves to be treated with equal contempt in my eyes regardless of financial circumstances.

We have enough debate on the welfare state happening, can we not mourn the fact that these children lost their right to grow up?

[Nedusa]

I watched him on a news report when he and his wife gave a press conference just after the deaths of his six children. No real emotion only false tears for the camera... Almost beyond belief that he was not really that bothered that 6 of his children were dead.

For most people the grief would be palpable and almost too much to bear, for him he had to actually act upset and fake grief.... How is this even possible ??

What does this say about the mindset of this vile and loathsome creature...!!!

[Vicky.]

I watched him on a news report when he and his wife gave a press conference just after the deaths of his six children. No real emotion only false tears for the camera... Almost beyond belief that he was not really that bothered that 6 of his children were dead.

For most people the grief would be palpable and almost too much to bear, for him he had to actually act upset and fake grief.... How is this even possible ??

What does this say about the mindset of this vile and loathsome creature...!!!
A mortuary manager said Philpott engaged in "horseplay" when he went to view his children's bodies, even putting a family liaison officer in a headlock during one visit.

I hope he rots in jail.

[joeysteele]

I watched him on a news report when he and his wife gave a press conference just after the deaths of his six children. No real emotion only false tears for the camera... Almost beyond belief that he was not really that bothered that 6 of his children were dead.

For most people the grief would be palpable and almost too much to bear, for him he had to actually act upset and fake grief.... How is this even possible ??

What does this say about the mindset of this vile and loathsome creature...!!!

Very good points and well said Nedusa, it was also pointed out on TV today his acting at that press conference.

Such as wiping above his eyes while supposedly crying, with not a tear in sight,despite the fact you cry down from the bottom and sides of the eye not upwards.

Awful story, a massive tragedy caused by someone who has to be a really sick and rotten individual.
That is the only thing that matters as to this tragedy as a lot of others have said in this thread,not papers exploiting the story for their other agendas.

[joeysteele]

I hope he rots in jail.

I would hate to be him in Prison Vicky, he will get the shock of his life,prisoners always have ways and means to get to those they really want to and child killers are despised.

[the truth]

the tax payer has supported this scumbags evil lifestyle for 30 years, thats 30 years too long. where were the social services?

[Niall]

would this idiot have been in a position where he had 17 children (11 under one roof), brreding dogs, several women on the go, showing off about his abusive cheating ways on tv, if the benefit system hadnt been economically funding his entire lifestyle. the benefits which in the end he was so scared to lose, they were in fact part of the reason he did what he did which lead to the deaths of these innocent children.

I find it abhorrent that people on here cannot see this and are using this tragedy to support their pro welfare benefits agenda without pointing to the truth, that the benefits system funded this pigs lifestyle and was a crucial part of the reason he got away with his behaviour for so many years and was part of the reason 6 innocent children died

I think you're missing the point. What you seem to be implying (well from what I can gather anyway), is that benefits breed a culture of such debauchery in claimants, and I think everyone knows that that isn't the case.

The fact is that he killed six of his children in a premeditated attack on his own home. That's the important thing here, even if he was on benefits here.

The problem with this country is that the benefits problem is so distorted because of the mass media attention it gets. If you want to worry about the money lost by the state then look to the billions lost in corporate tax fraud which sits un-investiagted. The fact remains that although his benefits may have funded his lifestyle, you can't blame benefits and his fear of losing them for his actions. What he did was a mixture of callousness and a clear disregard for the safety of other people, and last time I checked, the dole didn't turn people into emotionless monsters like Philpott.

[joeysteele]

the tax payer has supported this scumbags evil lifestyle for 30 years, thats 30 years too long. where were the social services?

Well to me, it is clear he has cleverly manipulated and fooled them much the same way he has all others too.
If there doesn't appear to be anything really wrong at a home and the Children appear cared for then social services cannot really do anything.

Maybe other than the size of his family and perhaps his arrogance too with rather a crude lifestyle, he wasn't doing anything illegal and no one was complaining about him to alert anyone to anything either.

[the truth]

Well to me, it is clear he has cleverly manipulated and fooled them much the same way he has all others too.
If there doesn't appear to be anything really wrong at a home and the Children appear cared for then social services cannot really do anything.

Maybe other than the size of his family and perhaps his arrogance too with rather a crude lifestyle, he wasn't doing anything illegal and no one was complaining about him to alert anyone to anything either.

11 kids 2 adults and dogs in a 3 bedroom house? it doesnt take a genius to work out thats unhealthy and dangerous.

[joeysteele]

11 kids 2 adults and dogs in a 3 bedroom house? it doesnt take a genius to work out thats unhealthy and dangerous.

Not if there is no sign of anything being wrong The Truth,there are no laws against any of the things you have listed in your post.

What could social services do as long as they saw sleeping arrangements were in order,the only thing they would have likely done was get him a bigger house if one was available.
What of the baove is illegal and on the programme about him, the children looked healthy,his wife made no complaint as to him.
What was illegal about anything you state above.

Clearly people who knew them saw nothing to complain about either.I do think social services fail a great many people and children in particular but in this case they would have had nothing whatsoever to interfere in,except to help them get a bigger dwelling.

Good grief,he even had busybody Ann Widdecombe visit him at their home as to guiding him to get a job, no matter what she saw when she was there, there was nothing she could have reported or acted on and she certainly could never have foreseen this likely tragedy either.

So social services would not have had a leg to stand on even if they were suspicious of anything, which I doubt they were anyway.

[the truth]

Not if there is no sign of anything being wrong The Truth,there are no laws against any of the things you have listed in your post.

What could social services do as long as they saw sleeping arrangements were in order,the only thing they would have likely done was get him a bigger house if one was available.
What of the baove is illegal and on the programme about him, the children looked healthy,his wife made no complaint as to him.
What was illegal about anything you state above.

Clearly people who knew them saw nothing to complain about either.I do think social services fail a great many people and children in particular but in this case they would have had nothing whatsoever to interfere in,except to help them get a bigger dwelling.

Good grief,he even had busybody Ann Widdecombe visit him at their home as to guiding him to get a job, no matter what she saw when she was there, there was nothing she could have reported or acted on and she certainly could never have foreseen this likely tragedy either.

So social services would not have had a leg to stand on even if they were suspicious of anything, which I doubt they were anyway.

lots of assumptions there, he has a long criminal past, hes proven to be a violent man, hes got 11 kids there and many others elsewhere, hes breeding dogs, he threatens people on national tv, to have that many people and animals in a 3 bedroom house is a fire hazard at best. its tragic the benefits system help support this mans disgusting lifestyle. its even more tragic that it came to this. the social services shoul have done way way more. you can just see from the way he behaves and from his record he is a disgusting bully boy.

[Kizzy]

they were rather unorthodox yes, however it cannot be said that his large family or the fact he was a benefit claimant was a contributory factor in this case can it?

The court did not hear that, 35 years ago, Philpott crept into the home of Kim Hill after she wrote him a letter ending their relationship. Hill, who was 17 at the time, was in bed when he attacked her, knifing her more than a dozen times, before turning on her mother, Shirley, a nurse.

Philpott, aged 21 at the time of the attack, was convicted of the attempted murder of Hill and of grievous bodily harm to her mother in December 1978. He was sentenced to seven years, with the judge warning that he was a dangerous man.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/02/derby-house-fire-evil-philpotts

[joeysteele]

lots of assumptions there, he has a long criminal past, hes proven to be a violent man, hes got 11 kids there and many others elsewhere, hes breeding dogs, he threatens people on national tv, to have that many people and animals in a 3 bedroom house is a fire hazard at best. its tragic the benefits system help support this mans disgusting lifestyle. its even more tragic that it came to this. the social services shoul have done way way more. you can just see from the way he behaves and from his record he is a disgusting bully boy.

The law states he would have to have the assistance of benefits, whatever the rights and wrongs of the benefits system, this is an extreme case and I am not going to exploit this tragedy for any failings as to the welfare situation.

It isn't a fire hazard to have 11 children and 2 adults and dogs in the house.
The children he has elsewhere don't come into this and thank goodness they don't as they are still alive, they had nothing to do with his living arrangements at this particular house.
As for his criminal record, well whatever he did in the past,when convicted he will have been given a sentence, once that is paid then he is a citizen again.

He is an awful individual but the law would state he had to have this benefits help, he was in the army, so he has paid into the system too in his time.

We cannot just go around and remove benefits and cast out people just because of the way they appear to behave, people have to do something criminally worng first.
He had in the past but had done whatever sentence was given.

We can go round in circles but for sure no one that ever,and I stress ever knew him raised any alarms as to him being a threat to his or others children.

This is a sick, also in my view despicable tragedy, he has been found guilty of this and will hopefully be sent to prison for a very long time now.
The really sad thing about all this,is that it has taken this tragedy to really and fully expose his even more deep rooted nastiness as an individual.

Before it occurred, no matter what his behaviour may have been,he wasn't doing or claiming anything wrongly that anyone could guess never mind see to have to do anything about.

He has been exposed as total scum and he will pay very heavily not only with the prison sentence he gets but also the treatment he will get from other prisoners once they can get to him.

[Shaun]

The issue of his class is rather thrown into disrepute when you consider Harold Shipman was terribly middle class and responsible for 215 deaths. Just a shoddy, poor argument used by ignorant people.

[the truth]

The law states he would have to have the assistance of benefits, whatever the rights and wrongs of the benefits system, this is an extreme case and I am not going to exploit this tragedy for any failings as to the welfare situation.

It isn't a fire hazard to have 11 children and 2 adults and dogs in the house.
The children he has elsewhere don't come into this and thank goodness they don't as they are still alive, they had nothing to do with his living arrangements at this particular house.
As for his criminal record, well whatever he did in the past,when convicted he will have been given a sentence, once that is paid then he is a citizen again.

He is an awful individual but the law would state he had to have this benefits help, he was in the army, so he has paid into the system too in his time.

We cannot just go around and remove benefits and cast out people just because of the way they appear to behave, people have to do something criminally worng first.
He had in the past but had done whatever sentence was given.

We can go round in circles but for sure no one that ever,and I stress ever knew him raised any alarms as to him being a threat to his or others children.

This is a sick, also in my view despicable tragedy, he has been found guilty of this and will hopefully be sent to prison for a very long time now.
The really sad thing about all this,is that it has taken this tragedy to really and fully expose his even more deep rooted nastiness as an individual.

Before it occurred, no matter what his behaviour may have been,he wasn't doing or claiming anything wrongly that anyone could guess never mind see to have to do anything about.

He has been exposed as total scum and he will pay very heavily not only with the prison sentence he gets but also the treatment he will get from other prisoners once they can get to him.


thankfully a cap has been brought in, scum like that need to be discouraged from breeding purely to make money and get free handouts for children he didnt care about. he and his wife didnt even visit the last dying child at his hospital bed, they were instead seem ordering chinese food and arguing over how rubbish the nhs was.....they duly went straight back to their drinking and socializing and swingers lifestyle all funded for by the benefits system....I blame the labour government for creating this chavland dependency culture and rewarding violent controlling dangerous scum like this. heck we as a nation made him a celebrity. what a disastrous culture new labour created.

[Nedusa]

I think one of the main points here was that this man needed the child benefits of 11 children in order to fund his workshy idle lifestyle . These children were commodities to him , the more children he has living in that house the more benefit he could claim and spend.

I think the Social Services should have intervened years ago , how they allowed 13 people to live in a small 3 bedroom house should be investigated. This man had criminal conviction s for violence and entrusting him the care of 11 children was always risky.

I know hindsight's a wonderful thing but is it really any surprise this family are in the news again ? I think Social Services must investigate why so many children were allowed to live in such cramped conditions under the supervision of a Man who was a convicted murderer who made his living by accumulating children and spending their child benefits.

An appalling story from every angle and should justifiably be on the front covers of nearly all national newspapers...!!!!

[Jesus.]

I think one of the main points here was that this man needed the child benefits of 11 children in order to fund his workshy idle lifestyle . These children were commodities to him , the more children he has living in that house the more benefit he could claim and spend.

I think the Social Services should have intervened years ago , how they allowed 13 people to live in a small 3 bedroom house should be investigated. This man had criminal conviction s for violence and entrusting him the care of 11 children was always risky.

I know hindsight's a wonderful thing but is it really any surprise this family are in the news again ? I think Social Services must investigate why so many children were allowed to live in such cramped conditions under the supervision of a Man who was a convicted murderer who made his living by accumulating children and spending their child benefits.

An appalling story from every angle and should justifiably be on the front covers of nearly all national newspapers...!!!!


In your opinion, what could be done to prevent this?

What if we stopped all benefit payments in the country? Would that work?
What about if we forcefully sterilised him against his will? Would that work?
Introduced a law saying that criminals are not allowed to have children?

The benefits system, by it's very nature is imperfect. You will always have people that abuse the system - regardless of what the system is to begin with.

The majority of people out there on benefits rely on them to help survive day to day. This is a safety net that government provide.

Someone should start a rival newspaper up to the daily heil, based solely on stories about people who grew up on benefits but have since gone on to go to university/own their own homes/build business/achieve personal levels of success etc, because the turning attitudes of people in this country, towards people less fortunate, is sickening. Anyone of us at anytime, could find ourselves in a situation where we needed help.

Providing benefits for people actually provides stimulation for the economy, as every penny is spent, and ensures we don't live in post apocalyptic ghetto's where we have to board up our houses after dark.

[joeysteele]

I agree more with Nedusa as to this, obviously they had to live somewhere though and this is the house he was given.
As I said earlier he even had Ann Widdecombe at his house,that was on TV I believe but nothing was done as to upgrade him to a bigger dwelling.
We can go round the houses all the time as to his criminal past and whether he was right to have so many children, however his past doesn't come into the benefits equation,nor was he doing anything illegal having so many children and claiming for them.
Blaming particular political party's for this tragedy is also below the belt.

To use this extreme case which is greatly far from the norm as to benefit claimants and to jump on same to get at the benefits system does nothing really for this tragic story.
That is what the Daily Mail did and most have criticised the Mail for that exploitation of a tragedy.

For me, it is the loss of lthe lives of 6 children here at the hands of their Parent/s, no matter the size of the house, nothing else should have been more sure than children are safe with and protected by their Parents.
This man fooled just about everyone,no one believed they were in any danger from him so this is a tragedy arising from a pretty rotten mind really of someone who at least morally should never have had children.

I really hope his sentence today is a very long one indeed,anyone deliberately starting a fire knowing 6 children were in the house is totally rotten and should be kept away from society for good in my opinion,the fact they were his children in the house only makes the whole thing even worse than it already is.
That act he committed is the reason for this tragedy.

Will lessons have been learned, I really hope so.

[Vicky.]

I agree with the benefit cap..though the majority of people who claim over £500pw or whatever it is..most of it goes to landlords, not claimants. A rent cap at the same time would be better (and would help those in work too) but thats not happening anytime soon

But I still dont think it would stop people like this from having kids.

Its easy enough to say his reasons were all about money. But he has a history of controlling and violent behaviour. The benefits might well have played a part, but it would have happened either way..as it appears the main point was to get back at the woman who dared to leave him.

[arista]

Vicky that D.Mail does not Imply
thats everyone on benefits is like that killer.

Ann W.
last night said that.

[Livia]

There are plenty of people like this man peppered around the country. We all know people like this, don't we? Who haven't worked for decades, if ever, and who have milked the system for years. But every thinking person knows that they are they exception rather than the rule and they do not represent the vast majority of people who quite ligitimately claim benefits to which they are entitled. However, the fact is that this man (I use the term "man" in its loosest possible sense) has lived his debauched life expense-free on the back of every hard-working tax-payer in this country. I don't see the point of getting all outraged because a newspaper (again, using the term loosely) points out that he is a freeloading parasite. I would say that's the mildest form on insult for him, considering the crime he committed, one so terrible that it's almost incomprehensible.

[Jesus.]

There are plenty of people like this man peppered around the country. We all know people like this, don't we? Who haven't worked for decades, if ever, and who have milked the system for years. But every thinking person knows that they are they exception rather than the rule and they do not represent the vast majority of people who quite ligitimately claim benefits to which they are entitled. However, the fact is that this man (I use the term "man" in its loosest possible sense) has lived his debauched life expense-free on the back of every hard-working tax-payer in this country. I don't see the point of getting all outraged because a newspaper (again, using the term loosely) points out that he is a freeloading parasite. I would say that's the mildest form on insult for him, considering the crime he committed, one so terrible that it's almost incomprehensible.

I think the wider issue is the fact that the journalistic profession seems to be pushing a lot of the governments divide and conquer platform for them, and extremely successfully at that.

It isn't just one newspaper - the papers that push this narrative are achieving the goals. Look at this forum for example. The people that are turning on people on benefits/welfare because of isolated incidents like this guy, is really disappointing.

I think that' why the Heil really ire's people.

[Kizzy]

History is replete with warnings about what can happen when the crimes of individuals are pinned on entire communities. Today's slurring of the whole category of benefit claimants may not pour over into violence on the streets, because the disparate millions who make recourse to benefits do so for myriad reasons, and are not an identifiable community as such. But this sort of coverage nonetheless suggests that – far from being classless – Britain continues to be scarred by class war. The only real question is where the battle lines are drawn, and a new study, which was heavily trailed by the BBC on Wednesday, suggested that the cleavages that count may be shifting

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/social-class-denied-and-despised

[arista]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/4/3/1365017870926/Political-leaders-poll-008.jpg
All One Class

[Livia]

I think the wider issue is the fact that the journalistic profession seems to be pushing a lot of the governments divide and conquer platform for them, and extremely successfully at that.

It isn't just one newspaper - the papers that push this narrative are achieving the goals. Look at this forum for example. The people that are turning on people on benefits/welfare because of isolated incidents like this guy, is really disappointing.

I think that' why the Heil really ire's people.

Is that really happening though? Does anyone really imagine that everyone on benefits is the same? We all know there are people who milk the system and seem to do okay on it. We also know that they're very much the minority. By saying that there are people like that doesn't reflect on people who are ligitimately claiming and who would work if they could.

We also all know what the Daily Fail is like. I'm sure no one here would read it... or admit to reading it. Being surprised that they make wild generalisations and use shock tactics with their headlines is like being surprised that Playboy has tits in it.

[Jesus.]

Is that really happening though? Does anyone really imagine that everyone on benefits is the same? We all know there are people who milk the system and seem to do okay on it. We also know that they're very much the minority. By saying that there are people like that doesn't reflect on people who are ligitimately claiming and who would work if they could.

We also all know what the Daily Fail is like. I'm sure no one here would read it... or admit to reading it. Being surprised that they make wild generalisations and use shock tactics with their headlines is like being surprised that Playboy has tits in it.

I think it pretty much is happening. Opinions don't have to be shifted so we all think that Philpott is the median, but the new myth that benefit claimants are earning £26k is out there enough for Osbourne to use it with workers at Morrisons the other day. It's about eroding opinions. The right can only ever be successful when it convinces people to vote against their own interests. It's all about the packaging, and right now, benefit claimants are being wrapped up nicely and delivered to the hard working Galahads of England.

We have to cut from the poor, because these people are taking from you.

The articles that pop up on here all the time, from a variety of sources, showing single moms with an Ipad. You can see more and more people believing this is the norm. You and I are in the job/work market, but the generation under us are being fed this on a continual loop, so pretty soon, no one will even have any knowledge about how the practices of bankers ground the world to a halt, and it will always be the poor that are holding back the rest of us.

Not for people with nuance, but there are far too many people that are ready and willing to lap up a good versus bad, ready packaged spoonful of medicine packed with benefits sugar.

[Livia]

I think it pretty much is happening. ...etc. etc...

Yeah, I do see what you mean and have to agree to a certain extent. And Osborne... well, we all know he's a cock, right? But I like to think that most people understand that, while a few will milk the system, most people who claim benefits don't milk it, and given a choice would rather work and have a decent standard of living. It's just that with this particular case, obviously it was his character and personality that made him the monster he is and not the fact that he's lived rent and expenses free for decades... apart from that, I don't see anything that's being said about him that isn't true.

[Kazanne]

Was a good interview on This Morning about the unfairness of the DM story.

[Jack_]

Yeah, Owen Jones was on that wasn't he Kazanne? One of my favourite political commentators. I'll catch up later.

[Kazanne]

Yeah, Owen Jones was on that wasn't he Kazanne? One of my favourite political commentators. I'll catch up later.

Yes Jack,you'll enjoy it I think.

[arista]

Yeah, Owen Jones was on that wasn't he Kazanne? One of my favourite political commentators. I'll catch up later.


Yes Owen Jones was good with Ann W.
on Ch5News.

She smacked him down to earth.

[Jack_]

Yes Jack,you'll enjoy it I think.

Good to hear :)

Yes Owen Jones was good with Ann W.
on Ch5News.

She smacked him down to earth.

Owen is never smacked down to earth, he does the opposite to any opponent of his actually :nono:

[arista]

Good to hear :)



Owen is never smacked down to earth, he does the opposite to any opponent of his actually :nono:

Yes but Ann had it Right

[Kizzy]

This man was a monster, he was prior to his benefits and he remained so.
The right wing media the torygraph, sun, mail, express and times all influence the public.. and they have.
Osborne preaching to blue collar workers like some maniacal evangelical was testament to that.

This was one warning from last year...

"I would really urge particularly Conservative colleagues but people in all parties to be careful. I don't think we can afford to preside over a society where there is a gradual eroding of sympathy for people at the bottom end of the income spectrum and a rapid erosion of sympathy for people on benefits."

She returns to the theme of morality and politics, saying: "I think deliberately to stoke up envy and division between people in order to gain popularity at the expense of children's lives is immoral. It has no good intent.

"There are all sorts of things you have to do when times are tight that have negative consequences but you do them for good purposes. To do something for negative purposes that also has negative consequences – that is immoral

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/17/demonisation-poor
But the case fits in so well with the current

[Jack_]

Yes but Ann had it Right

Ann never has it right :bored:

[Vicky.]

FFS, no surprises here... Osbourne got in there quickly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/04/mick-philpott-benefits-lifestyle-questioned

[arista]

FFS, no surprises here... Osbourne got in there quickly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/04/mick-philpott-benefits-lifestyle-questioned


So
Thats his Job Vicky.


There is a Problem with "some" people on Benefits

[Vicky.]

So
Thats his Job Vicky.


There is a Problem with "some" people on Benefits

Its his job to exploit the deaths of 6 innocent children to push his antiwelfare agenda?

I dont think so somehow.

I agree that something needs to be done about the benefit system...but using these deaths to score points is ****ing ridiculous.

He may have had a lot of kids to screw the benefit system. This didnt make him a killer anymore than being a doctor made Harold Shipman a killer. Philpott was a killer long before he had those children (attempted murder charges when younger)

If Osbourne has a problem with large families taking the piss...today is really not the time to bring it up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22025035

Labour's Andy McDonald described the chancellor's comments after the Philpott sentencing as a "total disgrace", saying the case was entirely separate from the wider debate about welfare.

"It just shows the depths to which they are prepared to stoop in demonising people who find themselves in difficult circumstances," he told BBC Radio 4's The World at One.

I agree 100% with that^

[Jesus.]

So
Thats his Job Vicky.


There is a Problem with "some" people on Benefits

Is there any chance you could actually write a paragraph or two, to lay out what you actually believe about these things? You say the same things often, but without any depth or reasoning, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Maybe you could answer a few questions?

What caused the financial meltdown?

What is the best way for us to deal with the effects of the recession going forward?

What should the government provide financially to a family of 1 man, 1 woman, and 1 small child?

[Kizzy]

FFS, no surprises here... Osbourne got in there quickly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/04/mick-philpott-benefits-lifestyle-questioned

Using this as a way to sway public opinion ... new low even for the tories.

[arista]

Is there any chance you could actually write a paragraph or two, to lay out what you actually believe about these things? You say the same things often, but without any depth or reasoning, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Maybe you could answer a few questions?

What caused the financial meltdown?

What is the best way for us to deal with the effects of the recession going forward?

What should the government provide financially to a family of 1 man, 1 woman, and 1 small child?


If had time I could write more
I am working

[Jesus.]

If had time I could write more
I am working

We can wait. I'm sure you don't work 24hrs a day, so write something later. I'd be interested to know exactly what you think, and what you think are good solutions, and I'm sure I'm not alone here.

[arista]

We can wait. I'm sure you don't work 24hrs a day, so write something later. I'd be interested to know exactly what you think, and what you think are good solutions, and I'm sure I'm not alone here.


If its My Contract I will

[Jesus.]

If its My Contract I will

WTD prevents you from working 24hrs continually.

[joeysteele]

Yeah, Owen Jones was on that wasn't he Kazanne? One of my favourite political commentators. I'll catch up later.

Owen Jones was really good this morning Jack, for me anyway he certainly showed the guy from the Sun up for what he was too.

Really good, I like Owen Jones too,glad This Morning had the sense to bring him on for balance.

[arista]

WTD prevents you from working 24hrs continually.

I am Private
International Contracts
International Times.


If its my Job - I fecking Finish It.

[arista]

Owen Jones was really good this morning Jack, for me anyway he certainly showed the guy from the Sun up for what he was too.

Really good, I like Owen Jones too,glad This Morning had the sense to bring him on for balance.


Yes I am trying to get him a show on SkyNewsHD.

[Vicky.]

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-philpott-philpott-and-mosley-sentencing-remarks.pdf

The judges summing up of the case.

Very different to the mails take on things.

The extra details in it may be upsetting to some..I know it upset me.

[Jack_]

Here's the debate from This Morning in full. The last video I posted (and subsequently deleted) was an edited down version uploaded by Guido Fawkes' people:

http://shows.stv.tv/this-morning/lifestyle/220164-debate-is-mick-philpott-a-product-of-the-welfare-state/

Owen Jones was really good this morning Jack, for me anyway he certainly showed the guy from the Sun up for what he was too.

Really good, I like Owen Jones too,glad This Morning had the sense to bring him on for balance.

Exactly, the man from The Sun was a total moron.

Yes I am trying to get him a show on SkyNewsHD.

So you do work for Sky after all? :suspect:

[Kizzy]

I saw this article today of a tragic case of a goth attacked in 2007

Police in Manchester have said they will begin recording offences against members of alternative subcultures in the same way they do attacks based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/03/manchester-police-goths-punks-hate-crime

Would you not say that the government and the right wing media are not guilty of inciting hatred against a sub group?... I would, why are they allowed to purport that the welfare state is in some way responsible for such heinous crimes as the one commited by Phillpot?

[arista]

Here's the debate from This Morning in full. The last video I posted (and subsequently deleted) was an edited down version uploaded by Guido Fawkes' people:

http://shows.stv.tv/this-morning/lifestyle/220164-debate-is-mick-philpott-a-product-of-the-welfare-state/



Exactly, the man from The Sun was a total moron.



So you do work for Sky after all? :suspect:

No I do not

Many that work in contracts are Freelance,
One bloke Does weekend SkySports
and ITV London News.
New types of shows
are tested first.

[jackc1806]

I really hate the Daily Mail. It's a newspaper that pretends it is a broadsheet even though its a tabloid, brainwashing lower middle class Little Englanders into believing its scare mongering, right wing drivel that it publishes. Let us not forget that this newspaper supported fascism during the 30s and still holds anti-foreign views. This article is the DM at its worst, using the deaths of innocent children to brainwash and manipulate people into voting for the Tories. As many people on this forum have pointed out the fact Philpott manipulated the benefits system does not change the fact he was already evil and inhumane. What about the people that rely on the welfare safety net because they've lost jobs or desperately looking for work? This article tries to demonise these people and name the middle class housewives who obsess in the rubbish sneer down their noses and ridicule these people who rely on welfare. Disgusting.

[Jack_]

I really hate the Daily Mail. It's a newspaper that pretends it is a broadsheet even though its a tabloid, brainwashing lower middle class Little Englanders into believing its scare mongering, right wing drivel that it publishes. Let us not forget that this newspaper supported fascism during the 30s and still holds anti-foreign views. This article is the DM at its worst, using the deaths of innocent children to brainwash and manipulate people into voting for the Tories. As many people on this forum have pointed out the fact Philpott manipulated the benefits system does not change the fact he was already evil and inhumane. What about the people that rely on the welfare safety net because they've lost jobs or desperately looking for work? This article tries to demonise these people and name the middle class housewives who obsess in the rubbish sneer down their noses and ridicule these people who rely on welfare. Disgusting.

:lovedup:

[Kizzy]

I really hate the Daily Mail. It's a newspaper that pretends it is a broadsheet even though its a tabloid, brainwashing lower middle class Little Englanders into believing its scare mongering, right wing drivel that it publishes. Let us not forget that this newspaper supported fascism during the 30s and still holds anti-foreign views. This article is the DM at its worst, using the deaths of innocent children to brainwash and manipulate people into voting for the Tories. As many people on this forum have pointed out the fact Philpott manipulated the benefits system does not change the fact he was already evil and inhumane. What about the people that rely on the welfare safety net because they've lost jobs or desperately looking for work? This article tries to demonise these people and name the middle class housewives who obsess in the rubbish sneer down their noses and ridicule these people who rely on welfare. Disgusting.
:worship:

[jackc1806]

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

This is pretty accurate aha!

[Kizzy]

WILL YOBS RUIN THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY?
Look what I got :)

[arista]

I really hate the Daily Mail. It's a newspaper that pretends it is a broadsheet even though its a tabloid, brainwashing lower middle class Little Englanders into believing its scare mongering, right wing drivel that it publishes. Let us not forget that this newspaper supported fascism during the 30s and still holds anti-foreign views. This article is the DM at its worst, using the deaths of innocent children to brainwash and manipulate people into voting for the Tories. As many people on this forum have pointed out the fact Philpott manipulated the benefits system does not change the fact he was already evil and inhumane. What about the people that rely on the welfare safety net because they've lost jobs or desperately looking for work? This article tries to demonise these people and name the middle class housewives who obsess in the rubbish sneer down their noses and ridicule these people who rely on welfare. Disgusting.


No One holds a Gun to your head
telling you to read it.

The Women Section is well liked by all kinds of women workers

[Kizzy]

No One holds a Gun to your head
telling you to read it.

The Women Section is well liked by all kinds of women workers

Oh yes, here they are...
http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/bromptonbynorthallerton/phpgiHHop

[bbfan1991]

It was a vile headline and a very stupid by the Daily Fail to play the class game with what was a tragic story, but instead they had to use something to play the outrage card.

[arista]

Owen Jones is on Ch4News now

[joeysteele]

I really hate the Daily Mail. It's a newspaper that pretends it is a broadsheet even though its a tabloid, brainwashing lower middle class Little Englanders into believing its scare mongering, right wing drivel that it publishes. Let us not forget that this newspaper supported fascism during the 30s and still holds anti-foreign views. This article is the DM at its worst, using the deaths of innocent children to brainwash and manipulate people into voting for the Tories. As many people on this forum have pointed out the fact Philpott manipulated the benefits system does not change the fact he was already evil and inhumane. What about the people that rely on the welfare safety net because they've lost jobs or desperately looking for work? This article tries to demonise these people and name the middle class housewives who obsess in the rubbish sneer down their noses and ridicule these people who rely on welfare. Disgusting.

Excellent post.

[Jack_]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHCOIPcCEAA4d6y.jpg:large

:laugh2:

What a ****ing ******

[Kizzy]

I don't know about benefit claimants but this guy is totally 'shameless'

[joeysteele]

I don't know about benefit claimants but this guy is totally 'shameless'

I agree with that too. Useless at his job too all the revising down he has to do.

[arista]

Jack from the thread about this


To be fair the driver parked there and stayed in the car so could have moved if required. Also George Osbourne is a Minister of the State so security is also an issue.

All in All a bit of a non story, there are far more worrying things going on in the World at the moment just look at the situation in North Korea which has the potential to escalate into WWIII....!!!!!

[GiRTh]

The Mail is becoming like Fox News. They slant every story to push their agenda.

[arista]

The Mail is becoming like Fox News. They slant every story to push their agenda.


Yes they need a TV Ch.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2304266/Mick-Philpott-George-Osborne-welfare-reform-Once-Left-censors-vital-debate.html

[the truth]

I really hate the Daily Mail. It's a newspaper that pretends it is a broadsheet even though its a tabloid, brainwashing lower middle class Little Englanders into believing its scare mongering, right wing drivel that it publishes. Let us not forget that this newspaper supported fascism during the 30s and still holds anti-foreign views. This article is the DM at its worst, using the deaths of innocent children to brainwash and manipulate people into voting for the Tories. As many people on this forum have pointed out the fact Philpott manipulated the benefits system does not change the fact he was already evil and inhumane. What about the people that rely on the welfare safety net because they've lost jobs or desperately looking for work? This article tries to demonise these people and name the middle class housewives who obsess in the rubbish sneer down their noses and ridicule these people who rely on welfare. Disgusting.

you sound more discriminating than the daily mail

In a democracy its vital to allow some freedom of speech, the mail has every right to highlight the exploitation of the benefits culture, just as papers have the right to report on the exploitation on the other end of the scale at the banks etc

[the truth]

It was a vile headline and a very stupid by the Daily Fail to play the class game with what was a tragic story, but instead they had to use something to play the outrage card.

40,000+ families with 5 children or more are workless and live entirely from benefits. the majority of these people are plain lazy and do not deserve these handouts. Im delighted the mail and others report on this. This scumbag wouldnt have been empowered like this for decades to abuse and destroy lives without these handouts

[Vicky.]

40,000+ families with 5 children or more are workless and live entirely from benefits. the majority of these people are plain lazy and do not deserve these handouts. Im delighted the mail and others report on this. This scumbag wouldnt have been empowered like this for decades to abuse and destroy lives without these handouts

You realise his household was claiming IN work benefits...not unemployment benefits? They claimed child benefit (available for anyone with a wage below 60k coming in) tax credits, and housing benefit. As the women were working.

Not that that makes the amount they recieved any better mind.

People keep saying the man was lazy for not working. However, if it had been him out working and the women staying with the kids..I dont think there would be such an outcry about it.

Also, had he been working too, the state would have had to pick up the huge tab for childcare for all those kids.

[the truth]

You realise his household was claiming IN work benefits...not unemployment benefits? They claimed child benefit (available for anyone with a wage below 60k coming in) tax credits, and housing benefit. As the women were working.

Not that that makes the amount they recieved any better mind.

People keep saying the man was lazy for not working. However, if it had been him out working and the women staying with the kids..I dont think there would be such an outcry about it.

Also, had he been working too, the state would have had to pick up the huge tab for childcare for all those kids.

he had plenty of time for affairs, booze, fags, humiliating tv appearances, yet never worked. he should have at the very least worked part time around his wifes part time job. but thats hard when youre so busy having affairs, threatening people, drinking , smoking and embarassing your family on tv

[Vicky.]

he had plenty of time for affairs, booze, fags, humiliating tv appearances, yet never worked. he should have at the very least worked part time around his wifes part time job. but thats hard when youre so busy having affairs, threatening people, drinking , smoking and embarassing your family on tv

Oh I definitely agree that his lifestyle left something to be desired :laugh:

Just that people go on about how much of a disgrace it was that he stayed home...when if it was the wife that stayed home with the kids noone would say that.

[Kizzy]

he had plenty of time for affairs, booze, fags, humiliating tv appearances, yet never worked. he should have at the very least worked part time around his wifes part time job. but thats hard when youre so busy having affairs, threatening people, drinking , smoking and embarassing your family on tv

Sounds like someone we know...
Tousle the hair a little, some self-deprecation and a bit of a plug for the BBC TV documentary on Monday to remind the Tory backbenchers that if the ball ever popped out of the scrum, he would be on hand to take it, almost accidentally, over the line. A spot of liberal differentiation from his school chum David Cameron on the benefits of migrants might provide with him an entry to the likely story of the day, the prime minister's imminent speech on migrants and access to social housing. But after the 15 minutes of chilling inquisition by the softly spoken Eddie Mair, Johnson's reputation had taken a severe pounding. Indeed, it was probably the worst interview the mayor has ever conducted

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/mar/24/boris-johnson-interview-eddie-mair

[GiRTh]

Mick Phillpott was a abusive controlling psychopath. No one thing drove him to do what he did. Not the welfare state or any other single factor. The man was a psycho. How any one can come to the conclusion that the welfare state had anything to do with this crime is simply trying to push their own agenda. Raoul Moat wasn't a benefits scrounger yet he still went crazy so how do people come to the conclusion that Mick Philpotts lifestyle had anything to do with his psychotic tendencies.

[Vicky.]

Mick Phillpott was a abusive controlling psychopath. No one thing drove him to do what he did. Not the welfare state or any other single factor. The man was a psycho. How any one can come to the conclusion that the welfare state had anything to do with this crime is simply trying to push their own agenda. Raoul Moat wasn't a benefits scrounger yet he still went crazy so how do people come to the conclusion that Mick Philpotts lifestyle had anything to do with his psychotic tendencies.

100% agreed.

[joeysteele]

Mick Phillpott was a abusive controlling psychopath. No one thing drove him to do what he did. Not the welfare state or any other single factor. The man was a psycho. How any one can come to the conclusion that the welfare state had anything to do with this crime is simply trying to push their own agenda. Raoul Moat wasn't a benefits scrounger yet he still went crazy so how do people come to the conclusion that Mick Philpotts lifestyle had anything to do with his psychotic tendencies.

Another excellent post and strong points.

I now really don't take much notice myself of the dragging benefits issue into this tragedy anymore,for me anyway, that argument is well lost.
I am just personally sad anyone would do so especially people trusted to run the Country too.

For me it is the loss of 6 children's lives that is the only matter here and the Mail's front page is an insult to any decency too as to that fact.

[the truth]

Mick Phillpott was a abusive controlling psychopath. No one thing drove him to do what he did. Not the welfare state or any other single factor. The man was a psycho. How any one can come to the conclusion that the welfare state had anything to do with this crime is simply trying to push their own agenda. Raoul Moat wasn't a benefits scrounger yet he still went crazy so how do people come to the conclusion that Mick Philpotts lifestyle had anything to do with his psychotic tendencies.

all paid for by th ebenefits system. if the benefits system had some kind of limit he wouldnt have been able to afford to have had endless kids and his benefits would have been cut off if he had kept turning down jobs. the benefits sytem and the lazy culture made him a worse , lazier greedier nastier person. a man with no work ethic at all, in the end all he did was waste tax payers money on booze fags and chasing women. the dependancy culture is bad for peoples mental health. people need work, they need ambition, they need self worth. any man who is fit enough and goes his life without working is not a man. in the end part of the reason he did what he did was to keep his benefits and to keep his kids. Id also say the social services should have looked far closer at this man and hiw wife.

[joeysteele]

He was a controlling man, he had worked in the past and had even been in the army. Makes you wonder what he must have been like in the army.

The Judge who had heard all the evidence oddly enough didn't have some obsession as to the benefits he was getting.
He was seen as someone who saw the people in his life and his children too as posessions, to be controlled and for him never to be crossed.
That was his Mental/psychological issues clearly,being very generous to him as to that though.

What had triggered him to this, was the fact the other woman had left and taken her 5 children with her, he hated losing what he saw as those posessions, working or on benefits he would have likely done the same thing in order to get back at her.

Yes there is the income issue, as she would have likely been taking away the paying in of her benefits and wages too into his account.
Money and people as posessions were the main issues here but even had he been working full time, if the women had been working full time and one had dared to leave him in all likelihood he would have reacted the same.

He wanted 'his' posessions around him, to control them and make sure he had control of them too.
That is the rottenness of his thinking and personality,it is also why this likely happened not because of being on benefits.

It is also not really appropriate in my view anyway, to state this is because of the benefits culture anyway, others with large families, as has been said on here, don't act this way and certainly I would guess way into the top half of the 90+% of people on benefits wouldn't act this way either.

The man's mind was corrupt with really closed thinking,benefits didn't do that, it was how he was.

[the truth]

He was a controlling man, he had worked in the past and had even been in the army. Makes you wonder what he must have been like in the army.

The Judge who had heard all the evidence oddly enough didn't have some obsession as to the benefeits he as getting.
He was seen as someone who saw the people in his life and his children too as possessions, to be controlled and for him never to be crossed.
That was his Mental/psychological issues clearly,being very generous to him as to that though.

What had triggered him to this, was the fact the other woman had left and taken her 5 children with her, he hated losing what he saw as those possessions, working or on benefits he would have likely done the same thing in order to get back at her.

Yes there is the income issue, as she would have likely been taking away the paying in of her benefits and wages too into his account.
Money and people as possessions were the main issues here but even had he been working full time, if the women had been working full time and one had dared to leave him in all likelihood he would have reacted the same.

He wanted 'his' posessions around him, to control them and make sure he had control of them too.
That is the rottenness of his thinking and personality,it is also why this likely happened not because of being on benefits.

It is also not really appropriate in my view anyway, to state this is becasue of the benefits culture anyway, others with large families, as has been said on here, don't act this way and certainly I would guess way into the top half of the 90+% of people on benefits would act this way either.

The man's mind was corrupt with really closed thinking,benefits didn't do that, it was how he was.

absolute rubbish

the fact is the benefits system and the lazy benefits culture encouraged such a man to be a lazy scumbag, to waste his life boozing , impregnating women endlessly and chasing other women. all paid for by the taxes of the hard working men. it gave him everything for free, it made him a minor celebrity too. his ego was out of control and he even used his disgusting past as an excuse to avoid work and society rewarded him? our system is corrupt. all his benefits should have been taken. there are always jobs out there. the man had no disabilities so he should have had no benefits , go to work or starve. the social services failed totally. he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. the benefits system and the benefits culture has institutionalised this mans disgusting lifestyle and Im glad osborne questioned it.

[Ammi]

..so, you think if someone is on benefits and they have children, those benefits should be taken away..and they 'starve'...so the children would starve as well..the whole family...?...that would be an acceptable solution..solve anything..?...

[AnnieK]

There are extremes in every situation though...as Ammi said removing benefits would directly affect the children also. Everyone on benefits cannot be tarred with the same brush as this man as relatively very few abuse the system..

[Ammi]

..truth..I think it needs to be got into perspective..there are many people on benefits who would rather not be, but they have no choice..sometimes there is no work or maybe they have struggled for so long to find work that they have lost all confidence in themselves and now are unable to work because of that..that is a very real and serious thing..it's not imagined or contrived or anything..the solution is to help them with that, not punish them..do you punish people because they are the 'victims' of circumstance and mostly through no fault of their own..?....

..it's a very small percentage of people on benefits who could be termed as 'scroungers'...unfortunately because of the media and how they like to portray and sensationalise things..they lead people to believe it's the 'norm' for people who are forced to be on benefits...this guy didn't do this because he was on benefits..he did it because he had no concern or regard for his children...a very, very selfish man by character and that had an extremely tragic ending for those poor children....

[joeysteele]

absolute rubbish

the fact is the benefits system and the lazy benefits culture encouraged such a man to be a lazy scumbag, to waste his life boozing , impregnating women endlessly and chasing other women. all paid for by the taxes of the hard working men. it gave him everything for free, it made him a minor celebrity too. his ego was out of control and he even used his disgusting past as an excuse to avoid work and society rewarded him? our system is corrupt. all his benefits should have been taken. there are always jobs out there. the man had no disabilities so he should have had no benefits , go to work or starve. the social services failed totally. he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. the benefits system and the benefits culture has institutionalised this mans disgusting lifestyle and Im glad osborne questioned it.

Your view just as my viewpoint is mine too, and there is absolutely no need to call anyone else views rubbish who disagrees with your,at least rather it seems to me, biased view as to people on benefits.
Near every post you make as to this tragedy involves some attack on the benefit situation.

I prefer as the Judge did too, to not use this as an excuse to demonise people far less fortunate than I am who have to claim benefits and to actually look at it from the rotten thinking as to this man and the extremely sad loss of 6 young lives.

If what I am saying is rubbish, then I am very happy to talk rubbish and not seize on tragedies to demonise others or their lifestyles.

[arista]

"Near every post you make as to this tragedy involves some attack on the benefit situation."

Yes Joey it upsets some who are working hard.
this nation will be Split at the election
and David can win on this.
2 years of Working Hard Voters
suffering Bollocks from Ed Balls and Ed M.

[joeysteele]

"Near every post you make as to this tragedy involves some attack on the benefit situation."

Yes Joey it upsets some who are working hard.
this nation will be Split at the election
and David can win on this.
2 years of Working Hard Voters
suffering Bollocks from Ed Balls and Ed M.

There's a vast number of people on benefits who are also working hard arista, helping those keep their wealth and businessess too.

It all works both ways, this I feel especially the content and tone of Osborne and now Cameron is turning people off.
Like me, most people support welfare reform, however the more that is learned about this particular Govts method of reforms is made clear, people are turned off.

I have yet to find someone around me who agrees with Ministers of the crown setting out to demonise the poorer sector of society especially involving this tragedy in it too.

When the dust settles, I can only see Cameron being seen as more uncaring and weak from these episodes this week.

[arista]

There's a vast number of people on benefits who are also working hard arista, helping those keep their wealth and businessess too.

It all works both ways, this I feel especially the content and tone of Osborne and now Cameron is turning people off.
Like me, most people support welfare reform, however the more that is learned about this particular Govts method of reforms is made clear, people are turned off.

I have yet to find someone around me who agrees with Ministers of the crown setting out to demonise the poorer sector of society especially involving this tragedy in it too.

When the dust settles, I can only see Cameron being seen as more uncaring and weak from these episodes this week.


No just the people you meet.

But I know so many backing the PM on this
(Today on BBC Dateline proving its not a Bedroom Tax[Labours Lie]
but a Benefit Cut)

Workers on benefits are not the problem
and they are not angry , some are
but not all.

[Kizzy]

absolute rubbish

the fact is the benefits system and the lazy benefits culture encouraged such a man to be a lazy scumbag, to waste his life boozing , impregnating women endlessly and chasing other women. all paid for by the taxes of the hard working men. it gave him everything for free, it made him a minor celebrity too. his ego was out of control and he even used his disgusting past as an excuse to avoid work and society rewarded him? our system is corrupt. all his benefits should have been taken. there are always jobs out there. the man had no disabilities so he should have had no benefits , go to work or starve. the social services failed totally. he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. the benefits system and the benefits culture has institutionalised this mans disgusting lifestyle and Im glad osborne questioned it.


people... you mean people.

[Jack_]

absolute rubbish

the fact is the benefits system and the lazy benefits culture encouraged such a man to be a lazy scumbag, to waste his life boozing , impregnating women endlessly and chasing other women. all paid for by the taxes of the hard working men. it gave him everything for free, it made him a minor celebrity too. his ego was out of control and he even used his disgusting past as an excuse to avoid work and society rewarded him? our system is corrupt. all his benefits should have been taken. there are always jobs out there. the man had no disabilities so he should have had no benefits , go to work or starve. the social services failed totally. he was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. the benefits system and the benefits culture has institutionalised this mans disgusting lifestyle and Im glad osborne questioned it.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2008/06/30/PaulDacre460.jpg

[joeysteele]

No just the people you meet.

But I know so many backing the PM on this
(Today on BBC Dateline proving its not a Bedroom Tax[Labours Lie]
but a Benefit Cut)

Workers on benefits are not the problem
and they are not angry , some are
but not all.

We shall see arista,however I feel near as sure as I can be that Cameron and co will not be trusted at all at the next election by more than 35% of the voters max.
The bedroom tax/charge, (I personally don't care what people call it but near all in the media address it as the bedroom tax and it is certainly what the people affected by it call it), that will see this Govt out and I am beginning to now think well and truly out in 2015 too.

Incidentally, I backed the PM and the Govt on welfare reform too but not the way they have done it, I believe there is a better, more compassionate way and so while I support the idea, I do not support this Govts polices in action as to it.

Using this tragedy to further attempt to demonise benefit claimants will as it goes on, make most people feel sick.
That is what I am finding.

I was talking to a close friend of mine this morning, who is a firm Conservative supporter,(in fact most of my really good friends were Conservative voters in 2010), he said he wishes Osborne and Cameron would keep their mouths shut since near everytime they say something, it is either proven wrong or causes controversy in a negative way.

We shall see though arista.however I am near as sure as I can be that no way will the Conservatives win the next election or even come as close as they did in 2010 either.
For once,(and I hate admitting this), I agree with Kelvin Mackenzie, who said on sky the other night, there is likely to be a 1997 proportions election against the Conservatives, he added that Cameron had been a disaster as a leader and Prime Minister.

[arista]

"Incidentally, I backed the PM and the Govt on welfare reform too but not the way they have done it"


Its only just starting - give it a chance
do not get caught in this Labour Frenzy.


2 Years
Millions will hate Labour

Ed and Ed both under Failed Brown
Stinking

[Jesus.]

"Near every post you make as to this tragedy involves some attack on the benefit situation."

Yes Joey it upsets some who are working hard.
this nation will be Split at the election
and David can win on this.
2 years of Working Hard Voters
suffering Bollocks from Ed Balls and Ed M.

A lot of the people on benefits at the moment, have also been hard workers. They may have retired, or they may have lost their jobs due to the recession, but only someone with zero intelligence would try to make this a battle of makers versus takers.

[arista]

A lot of the people on benefits at the moment, have also been hard workers. They may have retired, or they may have lost their jobs due to the recession, but only someone with zero intelligence would try to make this a battle of makers versus takers.


Its Labour moaning.


LibDem and Conservastive
show positive side.

Hard Workers are not the problem
its the ones who refuse to work and want 26K a year
for doing nothing,
Its got to change

[Jesus.]

Its Labour moaning.


LibDem and Conservastive
show postivie side.

Hard Workers are not the problem
its the ones who refuse to work and want 26K a year
for doing nothing,
Its got to change

Show what positive side? How willing they all are to strip money away from those that need it the most?

How many benefit claimants are getting £26k per annum?

I like the new approach that has suddenly started to happen, whereby housing benefit, tax credits, and everything else is all bundled into one figure, to inspire more outrage.

[joeysteele]

"Incidentally, I backed the PM and the Govt on welfare reform too but not the way they have done it"


Its only just starting - give it a chance
do not get caught in this Labour Frenzy.


2 Years
Millions will hate Labour

Ed and Ed both under Failed Brown
Stinking

I am not caught in any Labour frenzy arista,I was in fact a likely natural Conservative voter now lost for a good while,if I was ever to think of returning.

I simply don't believe in hammering the weakest and most vulnerable for any reason when they have done nothing wrong, that has nothing to do with the Labour party but everything to do with decency and right.

Failed Brown is starting to look a picnic compared to the heartlessness of this Govt and as for the Lib Dems, they have just shown themselves to be total hypocrites, they will support anything to have a period in power.
I haven't an ounce of respect for them whatsoever.

As you say, these reforms are just starting and the more people learn about them the more they see how heartless and unjust they really are.
Cameron would have more chance if he were to do yet another u turn and scrap this bedrrom tax,(I am happy to term it as that), and also to look again at the reforms.
Too many reforms,too soon and they are causing chaos to claimants, their families and carers alike.

For me however, a Chancellor actually setting out to use a tragedy of the loss of life of so many Children to jump on the agenda of benefit claimants, is despicable to say the least.
Even worse that the PM of the Country supports him in it too.

Thankfully,and I am grateful for it, people around me think the same as me as to that and many of those were Conservative voters too who are completely disillussioned at the demonising path this Govt has taken as to benefit claimants particularly on the back of this tragedy.

I am looking forward to it all coming back to haunt them in the 2015 election campaign.

[arista]

Yes lets see how the next 2 years go.

[the truth]

I am not caught in any Labour frenzy arista,I was in fact a likely natural Conservative voter now lost for a good while,if I was ever to think of returning.

I simply don't believe in hammering the weakest and most vulnerable for any reason when they have done nothing wrong, that has nothing to do with the Labour party but everything to do with decency and right.

Failed Brown is starting to look a picnic compared to the heartlessness of this Govt and as for the Lib Dems, they have just shown themselves to be total hypocrites, they will support anything to have a period in power.
I haven't an ounce of respect for them whatsoever.

As you say, these reforms are just starting and the more people learn about them the more they see how heartless and unjust they really are.
Cameron would have more chance if he were to do yet another u turn and scrap this bedrrom tax,(I am happy to term it as that), and also to look again at the reforms.
Too many reforms,too soon and they are causing chaos to claimants, their families and carers alike.

For me however, a Chancellor actually setting out to use a tragedy of the loss of life of so many Children to jump on the agenda of benefit claimants, is despicable to say the least.
Even worse that the PM of the Country supports him in it too.

Thankfully,and I am grateful for it, people around me think the same as me as to that and many of those were Conservative voters too who are completely disillussioned at the demonising path this Govt has taken as to benefit claimants particularly on the back of this tragedy.

I am looking forward to it all coming back to haunt them in the 2015 election campaign.the most vulnerable are the disabled and the sick and elderly all of whom have been ignored for decades

[joeysteele]

the most vulnerable are the disabled and the sick and elderly all of whom have been ignored for decades

I agree as to that and they are the ones who are actually suffering now at these reforms, to name 2 instances I know of.

A friend of mine who who was brain damaged in a car accident, has had his benefits reduced twice now, after these new assessments as to ESA. his family and myself and his other friends have had to spend ages sorting things out for him, he cannot express himself and cannot walk.

Twice, these ATOS people employed by this Govt have hauled him in for a face to face assessment.
Twice the DWP have reduced his benefits.
We have appealed twice and had the appeal upheld and the decision overturned.
Still it goes on.
The stress, worry and confusion this has caused to him and all involved in his care is enormous.

We have to all to do again too when he will have to re-apply for PIP as opposed to DLA when that change gets round to him too.
That is the effects of these reforms on genuine sick and disabled and therefore vulnerable too.

This bedroom tax, I know of someone in a house with 4 bedrooms, he and his wife have 3 daughters at present.
They have been told that at least 2 of the girls should share, so that means they have a spare bedroom, it is a tiny box room really but the Local Authority class it as a bedrrom.
He claims housing benefit and will be £40 a month worse off.

Again no fault of theirs as to this, they have the secured tenancy and were told these were entitlements they should claim, now at a stroke they are being penalised for being on a very low income.
They are also vulnerable and to me anyway, this is totally wrong.

As to genuine sick and disabled vulnerable people getting a rotten deal as to these reforms the list must be massive.
This rotten Govt ignores completely these issues and as to the first instance I posted, Duncan Smith would tell you that shouldn't happen but he doesn't do a single thing about it when he and his department are told of them happening.

I don't agree the elderly have been ignored for decades, with the increasing of cold weather payments from under £7,(under the Conservatives), up to £25 by the last Labour Govt, and the introduction of pension credit plus the winter fuel allowance and restoration of free bus passes, more was started to be being done for the elderly and a great many elderly were massively grateful for those moves too.

You won't hear much of that from the Daily Mail though.

[the truth]

I agree as to that and they are the ones who are actually suffering now at these reforms, to name 2 instances I know of.

A friend of mine who who was brain damaged in a car accident, has had his benefits reduced twice now, after these new assessments as to ESA. his family and myself and his other friends have had to spend ages sorting things out for him, he cannot express himself and cannot walk.

Twice, these ATOS people employed by this Govt have hailed him in for a face to face assessment.
Twice the DWP have reduced his benefits.
We have appealed twice and had the appeal upheld and the decision overturned.
Still it goes on.
The stress, worry and confusion this has caused to him and all involved in his care is enormous.

We have to all to do again too when he will have to re-apply for PIP as opposed to DLA when that change gets round to him too.
That is the effects of these reforms on genuine sick and disabled and therefore vulnerable too.

This bedroom tax, I know of someone in a house with 4 bedrooms, he and his wife have 3 daughters at present.
They have been told that at least 2 of the girls should share, so that means they have a spare bedroom, it is a tiny box room really but the Local Authority class it as a bedrrom.
He claims housing benefit and will be £40 a month worse off.

Again no fault of theirs as to this, tey have the secured tenancy and were told these were entitlements they should claim, now at a stroke they are being penalised for being on a very low income.
They are also vulnerable and to em anywa, this is totally wrong.

As to genuine sick and disabled vulnerable people getting a rotten deal as to these reforms the list must be massive.
This rotten Govt ignores completely these issues and as to the first instance I posted, Duncam Smith would tell you that shouldn't happen but he doesn't do a single thing about it when he and his department are told of them happening.

I don't agree the elderly have been ignored for decades, with the increasing of cold weather payments from under £7,(under the Conservatives), up to £25 by the last Labour Govt, and the introduction of pension credit plus the winter fuel allowance and restoration of free bus passes, more was started to be being done for the elderly and a great many elderly were massively grateful for those moves too.

You won't hear much of that from the Daily Mail though.

the standards of cafre for the elderly are a national disgrace. prisoners are treated better

i blame 2 things for the failure to support the sick, disabled and elderly, the corrupt rich and the lazy workless chavs whove corrupted the benefits system. get those lazy scumbags off the handouts and back to work. loads of them are simply scumbags , period
that should allow more money for the genuine cases.
also tighten up benefits on men/women who simply breed for money and homes
also people who worked longer and paid more into the system over the years should get more than those who have paid much less into the system

[joeysteele]

the standards of cafre for the elderly are a national disgrace. prisoners are treated better

i blame 2 things for the failure to support the sick, disabled and elderly, the corrupt rich and the lazy workless chavs whove corrupted the benefits system. get those lazy scumbags off the handouts and back to work. loads of them are simply scumbags , period
that should allow more money for the genuine cases.
also tighten up benefits on men/women who simply breed for money and homes
also people who worked longer and paid more into the system over the years should get more than those who have paid much less into the system

I doubt many would disagree with near all that. I wouldn't although I wouldn't use the same terminology.
However Pensioners are getting really very little and indeed nothing from this Coalition Govt.
All they are doing is keeping in place so far what Labour brought in for those over 60.
The only thing this Govt has done is link pensioners increase to the rate of inflation but the lower of the 2 ways of recording inflation which means inflation outstrips the increase they get.

I am not so sure completely as to people getting more than vulnerable people who haven't paid into the system though, for me, you either have an emtitlement or you don't.

Someone in their teens for instance or at College/Uni who finds themselves injured permanently, who suffers brain damage or full physical impairment or both.
They will not have paid into the system but I couldn't agree in that instance that they should receive less to have to live on than someone else who had paid into the system, more to the point though had been able to pay into the system.,being in relatively good health.

Also as to the unemployed, there would have to be the number of jobs available for those unemployed and fit for work now.
People who want a job but cannot get one because there are not the vacancies, equally in my view should not be disadvantaged either.

In a better economic climate though, what you say would be a good way to try as long as it is done with fairness and compassion too, looking at each case indivudally and not making any generalised policy for all.
Such as is being done by the media and Govt ministers as to benefits and this tragedy.

[Kizzy]

The one issue that has not been addressed is how this will affect crime rates, if there are no jobs and benefits are cut won't more people resort to crime.
Will this not be a huge strain on the economy?

[arista]

Owen Jones was on the Big Question
BBC1 10AM
hour show.




Talking about the 1930's yet again

[Kizzy]

And you are surprised why?...
Shocked there hasn't been a jarrow march organised yet tbh.

[Jesus.]

the standards of cafre for the elderly are a national disgrace. prisoners are treated better

i blame 2 things for the failure to support the sick, disabled and elderly, the corrupt rich and the lazy workless chavs whove corrupted the benefits system. get those lazy scumbags off the handouts and back to work. loads of them are simply scumbags , period
that should allow more money for the genuine cases.
also tighten up benefits on men/women who simply breed for money and homes
also people who worked longer and paid more into the system over the years should get more than those who have paid much less into the system

Most of those "lazy scumbags" would love the chance to get back into work.

[joeysteele]

The one issue that has not been addressed is how this will affect crime rates, if there are no jobs and benefits are cut won't more people resort to crime.
Will this not be a huge strain on the economy?

Well, there you go, that will certainly become another major factor.
Which is inevitable when you have a Govt like this one that doesn't think things through with compassion and fairness.

That is a very strong point you make, of course it is wrong to break the law but if you force further desperation onto already desperate people,who are in that situation through no fault of their own,then one option will be they will resort to desperate means.

Creating a whole new set of problems and massive further costs dealing with the consequences of those problems too.

[arista]

gd01ai4nEwo


This is from 2007 Gloom
Blink its also today


Come back Rory
we need you


at 2:13
Last PM Big Smile - Mad Glint in his Eye

[Kizzy]

R1jY5fYjV-U

[arista]

Doi1U7I1CyU

[Kizzy]

NNace1KBqac

[arista]

a4g0a7LaUUI

[arista]

SyDBsMi7WE8

[the truth]

Most of those "lazy scumbags" would love the chance to get back into work.

Ive created 100s of jobs and I assure you the majority on benefits do not want to work. how many jobs have you created? None I presume judging by your infantile posts.

[arista]

BBCNews showed Public
Backing Conservative-LidDems

[Jack_]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BG__taJCIAIuicG.jpg:large

:love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

[joeysteele]

The polls show only what most people think, even I approve of welfare reforms that are just and fair.

However public opinion on this at this moment has been helped to be clouded by the tragedy of this family.
Wait until evictions start against people who are sick and disabled because of the bedroom tax, ask the question then and a likely different answer will be given although as the polls suggest there are around 6/7 people out of 10 who do support benefit and welfare reform, at this moment in time.
However not all those 6 or 7 people out of 10 who are, will agree with heartless and unjust reforms,all is now just slowly being made known as to the bedroom tax and other changes.

It will also depend on area too, those who are well off and insulated from this especially in areas of the South to a degree, will support likely any measures to reform welfare.
Facts will start to speak for themselves on this and all party's are in favour of welfare reform anyway,in fact Labour started some of the reforms, re -the ATOS testing for one.

In the end as people see and hear the effects of these reforms on people genuinely in great need then I am confident the people will turn against these heartless reforms from this Govt. and turn quite heavily indeed.
The Lib Dems are already pulling back from these reforms,toning down the language and I know from Lib Dem councillor friends that the Lib Dems have massive concerns at the effects of the bedroom tax.

2 years from now, the voters will be screaming for the defeat of this Govt, I am confident of that.
Welfare reforms are always popular as an ideal with the public, the enacting of them and the effects they have can bring disaster to the Govt doing so and that is likely why even Margaret Thatcher in her severe policies time in the 80s even drew back from even trying.

It is a poisoned chalice and this Govt will in time not know what hit it as to these heartless reforms no matter what a few polls may say now taken on the back of this tragedy being linked with benefit reform.

[joeysteele]

It is a pity your post and those headlines are not on every paper stall tomorrow Jack.
So much said in so few words.

[Kizzy]

The effect of uprooted communities from London moving further north will put pressure on local councils in these areas. At the same time they will be faced with the decision whether or not to prosecute vulnerable tenants they find are struggling with the extra housing and council costs.

[Jesus.]

Ive created 100s of jobs and I assure you the majority on benefits do not want to work. how many jobs have you created? None I presume judging by your infantile posts.

There is nothing infantile about suggesting that people whom are currently unemployed, would love an opportunity to get back into work.

I don't believe you've created 100's of jobs. You were asking for advice how to manage some womans hours not too long back, so I'd take things one step at a time if I were you, Gordon Gekko. You don't know anything about my work or what I do, yet felt sure enough to make a stupid assumption - that just about sums you up.

Finally, even if you had created 100's of jobs, it still doesn't qualify you to say that "the majority of people on benefits do not want to work."

[the truth]

There is nothing infantile about suggesting that people whom are currently unemployed, would love an opportunity to get back into work.

I don't believe you've created 100's of jobs. You were asking for advice how to manage some womans hours not too long back, so I'd take things one step at a time if I were you, Gordon Gekko. You don't know anything about my work or what I do, yet felt sure enough to make a stupid assumption - that just about sums you up.

Finally, even if you had created 100's of jobs, it still doesn't qualify you to say that "the majority of people on benefits do not want to work."

the fact that youre an attention seeking blasphemer certainly doesnt qualify you for saying these people all want work. Incidentally your recall of a question I ased is disingenous lie much f what you say. I have a great deal more experience than you in employing people, as well as employing 100s of people over the years, Ive interviewed probably 1000s and the attitude of a great deal of workers is poor. their attitude, their ambition, their values and respect is massively harmed by the benefits system and the poor economy. It maes them lazy and complacent and destroys their zest for life.

[Jack_]

I have never come across a member with a more inaccurate name than you before

[joeysteele]

The Truth, with the fullest respect it must have something to do with the area where you are as to finding people not wanting jobs and work.

Two small businesses where I am at present, advertised 2 vacancies, one part time, and one full time, they were stunned to get over 50 people applying.
They felt really sad that they couldn't take more on but they could only afford the 2 positions.

You must be in a unique area as to find people not wanting jobs. Even large companies when they advertise state that they get at the very least a minimum 20 people chasing each vacancy.

[Vicky.]

The Truth, with the fullest respect it must have something to do with the area where you are as to finding people not wanting jobs and work.

Two small businesses where I am at present, advertised 2 vacancies, one part time, and one full time, they were stunned to get over 50 people applying.
They felt really sad that they couldn't take more on but they could only afford the 2 positions.

You must be in a unique area as to find people not wanting jobs. Even large companies when they advertise state that they get at the very least a minimum 20 people chasing each vacancy.

20? Round here its a ratio of around 200 applicants for each job..at least.

My father in law advertised a job vacancy when he owned his bar, and got literally 200 applicants within the first day. And this was about 3 years ago now...before the recession really bit and loads became redundant.

http://www.tescoplc.com/index.asp?pageid=17&newsid=731

2000 withinin two days for the new tesco thats being built here too. I know it says 200 vacancies, but 2000 intwo days is still a hell of a lot of people. That wasnt even advertised very well either.

[joeysteele]

20? Round here its a ratio of around 200 applicants for each job..at least.

My father in law advertised a job vacancy when he owned his bar, and got literally 200 applicants within the first day. And this was about 3 years ago now...before the recession really bit and loads became redundant.

http://www.tescoplc.com/index.asp?pageid=17&newsid=731

2000 withinin two days for the new tesco thats being built here too.

What you say are the things I hear Vicky all the time, I can quite believe all you say above.

I was being very cautious in my post which is why I said at the very least 20,it is I would expect considerably more and on the lines you list most of the time.

[Kizzy]

caitlin moran: "i am a product of welfare uk"
(This is a repost of Caitlin Moran's article in today's Times, put up here in good faith. Any objections get in touch)

‘'We were a large family raised on public handouts who were gentle and normal’

My father raised eight children on welfare benefits, and didn’t kill any of us

I feel I should say that this week. I feel I need to firmly point to a large family raised on public handouts who were normal, and gentle, and never set fire to their house during a personal vendetta against a former lover.

It’s weird I should have to, of course, but the Philpott trial seems to have made it necessary. The Daily Mail’s headline on the case, after the “guilty” verdict, was “VILE PRODUCT OF WELFARE UK”, a profoundly odd summation of the case to have chosen. When Harold Shipman was convicted of killing more than 250 patients, the headline wasn’t “THE DEADLY PROFESSIONAL CLASSES”. Likewise, the headline on Fred West was not a succinct “EVIL BUILDER”. Odd, given that both Shipman and West’s professions actively facilitated their crimes as they visited helpless patients, loaded with poisoned syringes, or buried shattered bodies under the patio.''

I saw that while evil operated in the centre of all this – a terrible, destructive, manipulative man – every innocent around him was helped, and aided, and was never abandoned, and had somewhere to turn because of “welfare UK”. For that is why the welfare state was created: to undo wrongs, to help the helpless, even as strong men rage to destroy them. Anyone inclined to berate “welfare UK” should consider for a moment what would have happened to those women and those children in Victorian times, before Beveridge and Attlee.

''Because if they believe that the slums then were not filled with men exactly like Mick Philpott – but whose children starved and whose wives stayed, beaten, in the house – and that it is only “welfare UK” that has now created them, I fear the history my father taught me, during his long, “idle” days on benefits, was more comprehensive than yours.''

http://markmuldoon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/caitlin-moran-i-am-product-of-welfare-uk.html