Crisis of conservatism is destroying party, say grassroots Tories

[Omah]

Originally : EU vote: 130 MPs 'express regret' at lack of referendum bill

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22547910

A total of 130 MPs have backed an amendment to the Queen's Speech "expressing regret" that plans for an EU referendum were not included in the government's plans for the year ahead.

Eurosceptic Tories forced the vote as part of efforts to make David Cameron's pledge for a poll in 2017 binding.

Some Tory ministers abstained but the amendment was defeated as others joined the Lib Dems and Labour to oppose it.

The amendment was defeated by 277 votes to 130 after a Commons debate.

Tabled by Conservative MP Peter Bone the amendment came at the end of a week of Tory wrangling over the issue.

Including tellers, MPs who count the votes, 132 MPs voted for the amendment, increasing the pressure on the prime minister over the divisive issue of the UK's continued membership of the EU.

Of these 132, about 115 who backed the amendment are expected to have been Tories.

It seems that some Tories are revolting .....:laugh3:

[joeysteele]

Voters are going to get really sick of the Conservatives going on about this, why on earth can't David Cameron go and do negotiations for better terms now in these 2 years before the election.
He cannot get a referendum bill passed obviously but he can start the negotiations,I doubt many MPs would not support that move now.

He then could hope for an overall majority in 2015,(it would need to be a big one though as the pro EU MPs in his party would be unlikely to allow a referendum to be held if the vote looked like being won by the come out voters),in order to get a referendum passed in the commons to be held within a year after the 2015 election.

As it is, he is saying this badly needs to be done but he is just wanting to leave it,firstly for a whole 2 years until the next election,then spend a further 2 years on negotiations for better terms from the EU to finally then hold a referendum sometime before the end of 2017.

None of it sounds credible or that he can be trusted with that,especially since something so important can be left by him for a further 2 years before he even starts to begin to do anything about it.

He isn't just asking for a signed blank cheque as to this issue from the voters,he is in essence asking for a whole book of them. Terrible leadership and a real mess too.
He must really think the voters are idiots,that they cannot see his manipulation of this issue.

I know a lot has happened with the EU in the time that has passed but even as late as around the start of 1990, had Labour been advocating this and had MPs voting as Conservative ones did tonight, it would have been branded as loony left politics by the Conservative party.

[Marcus.]

oh dear
david camon it not looking good for you

[joeysteele]

oh dear
david camon it not looking good for you

I really think by the time the next election is here, David Cameron will pay a heavy price for stressing the importance of the EU issue and then his procrastination as to it too.

[Livia]

You'd think seeing the massive rise of UKIP at the local elections a couple of weeks ago, it would be clear to Cameron that it's time to stop tinkering with his ideas on the EU and put a referendum into law. Back-benchers are pushing him because their electorate are telling them they want a referendum. The EU is a very different animal to what it was when this country voted us in forty-odd years ago and frankly, it's time we were asked the in/out question again.

[Omah]

I really think by the time the next election is here, David Cameron will pay a heavy price for stressing the importance of the EU issue and then his procrastination as to it too.

IMO, he's already a gonner and won't be leading the Tories into the next election ..... :pipe:

[joeysteele]

I don't want to be asked in a referendum and that is despite my Parents voting no in 1975.Although they would now vote yes to stay in.

I don't believe the public, who may have little knowledge of the workings of the EU would in a referendum get a fair balanced argument from the media.
So much so I believe the UK could sleepwalk into leaving the EU since people just wouldn't be able to make their minds up and not vote,leaving those really anti EU to go out and vote to leave.

I would also question holding the referendum 2 years after an election too, why not hold the referendum when you can get the maximum vote out in a General election.
David Cameron vaguely says he would spend 2 years negotiating.(negotiating what would be a start to understanding this more), and then that he'd hold a referendum sometime before the end of 2017.

In 2015 we will have had an election,in 2016 there will be local elections, as there will be in 2017,then later in that year he is indicating he will bring in a referendum.
People will be sick of voting,it would likely get the lowest turnout ever.
The date of the referendum is one of the most important decisions that would ever need to be taken.

I certainly don't trust David Cameron with this issue and if he cannot lay better guidelines down than this now then he should never have opened his mouth and started this all off anyway since he has no intention of addressing the issue for another 2 years and only if he gets an overall majority.

Again though,what kind of overall majority, he needs to be at least 6.5% ahead of Labour just to barely scrape a possible bare overall majority at all.
He will have MPs who are pro EU, if the referendum seemed like being lost and he had say a 30 overall majority it would only take 20+ of his MPs to vote against the referendum and then he would not be delivering such a referendum.

That I believe is exactly what he would do, he would be bringing out the ''I haven't got the arithmetic to get the referendum bill through again'', because of his small majority.

Meantime we now have near 4 years of uncertainty as to the EU and Govt Ministers saying they would vote to come out in a referendum now and none can say what the PM will be looking to negotiate again in any detail.
What a shambles of a Govt. when the UKs economy is still far from stable,what a dangerous thing to have even raised and I believe the voters will be well sick of the whole saga by the time the election comes round.

This will I believe massively backfire on David Cameron and his govt, I just wish the Lib Dems would now becasue of this walk away and call his bluff, force an election and make him spell out all the details that are needed now,not 2 years time because most people I talk to haven't a clue really as to the EU and they certainly have no faith in David Cameron's word as to anything and clearly neither has near half of his backbenchers in truth after tonights farce.

David Cameron says he is relaxed about it all,oh yeah and I have just seen £10 notes growing on trees instead of leaves.
He is really a very weak leader and he has turned into a poor PM too,like Gordon Brown before him, not up to the job at all.

[joeysteele]

IMO, he's already a gonner and won't be leading the Tories into the next election ..... :pipe:

That could be the only chance now for the Conservatives to stave off a big defeat anyway.

[Livia]

Joey, holding an EU referendum on the same day as the General Election is a good idea, not sure how it would pan out legally. Also, local elections (District) are taking place on the same day as the General. And next May there are European elections. The MEPs have to step up and explain a lot of stuff, I reckon. People need much more information before they vote on Europe in my opinion. I've read a lot of information at work about Europe but I still don't know which way I'd vote.

As for Cameron continuing to lead the Tories... I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't make it to the next election, and Boris swoops in to save them.

[Jack_]

I don't want any referendum in the pipeline until we've had a proper national debate on it, and one that isn't led by a sinisterly motivated right-wing press, as an audience member on Question Time succinctly put it.

[Kizzy]

Boris! out of the frying pan and into the bumbling, lying fire, trying to lure old tories that have defected to UKIP back with promises, I would be dubious about opting out... I don't trust them.

[joeysteele]

Joey, holding an EU referendum on the same day as the General Election is a good idea, not sure how it would pan out legally. Also, local elections (District) are taking place on the same day as the General. And next May there are European elections. The MEPs have to step up and explain a lot of stuff, I reckon. People need much more information before they vote on Europe in my opinion. I've read a lot of information at work about Europe but I still don't know which way I'd vote.

As for Cameron continuing to lead the Tories... I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't make it to the next election, and Boris swoops in to save them.

That wouldn't surprise me either Livia, I accept he cannot get the referendum bill through because the Lib Dems and Labour can block it.
His problem is that he should have said in 2015, he was going to set out to negotiate a better deal with the EU and then hold a referendum at the next election in 2020.
That would have made more sense.

However,as it is, he could now start to negotiate with the EU and have a clear picture of his success or failure by the election of 2015, which would then leave only the referendum issue to resolve,which could be held,if passed on the local elections day in 2016 then.
That is how he should have approached this in my view, not say it is very important we get a better deal with the EU but I am not going to do a thing about that for at least 2 years.

That is where he looks slippery and not genuine.
Now his party have jumped on the bandwagon and it is going off in all directions.
He should have foreseen that,he knows full well the divisions in the Conservative party as to Europe.

I was reading the period of the last referendum as to Europe,the common market, where Harold Wilson laid out in October 1974,his intention to re-negotiate with Europe for better terms, then hold a referendum.
He won an overall majority of only 3 in October 1974,yet he did the negotiations and held the referendum.
The whole process took about 8 months and the referendum was held in June 1975.

Okay, the EU is far bigger and more intricate than in 1975 now, however David Cameron might have been wiser to look at how that was done in 1974/5 and not even open up the can of worms until he was ready to begin negotiations.
That is weak and bad leadership of not only his party but his country too in my opinion anyway.

[joeysteele]

I don't want any referendum in the pipeline until we've had a proper national debate on it, and one that isn't led by a sinisterly motivated right-wing press, as an audience member on Question Time succinctly put it.

Therein lies the bigger problem with any referendum Jack, it is why I don't want a referendum either,even though I know how I would vote and that would be to stay in.
As you point out it would be really difficult to get a balanced argument as to the EU espeically from the press.

It is why a debate as to Europe needs a massive amount of time for same to ensure people can really understand the issues.
For me David Cameron has done a massively dangerous thing for the UK and our economy in hauling this dark cloud over our future internationally for the next 4 years.
For goodness sake,what possessed the man.

[MTVN]

Eh from the main papers I imagine the Guardian, Independent, Mirror, Times & FT would be supporting the UK staying in, the Telegraph probably would just about as well but would allow a greater voice for eurosceptics, it'd just be the Mail, Express and to a lesser extent the Sun who would be staunchly calling for us to leave the EU. When you also consider that the three main parties all, to a greater or lesser extent, still prefer us to stay in then the balance is decidedly more in favour of the 'In' campaign than the 'Out'

I see nothing wrong with Cameron's original pledge a few months ago, where if reelected he would renegotiate the terms of British membership of the EU and then put it to the public with an In/Out referendum, and I think he should stop pandering to a Tory backbench pushing him to go further and further because they're in a panic at the rise of Ukip

[Kizzy]

All news corps incuding the times and the FT would want out.

[Shaun]

almost as if they're run by the same person :laugh:

I still can't quite see the pros/cons of either, to be honest... seems we're doomed either way.

[MTVN]

All news corps incuding the times and the FT would want out.

Don't think the FT is a news corp paper, and I'm not sure about the Times, yeah I know they're owned by Murdoch but they've always been a pretty centrist/centre-right paper and have never professed any overt euroscepticism

[Omah]

almost as if they're run by the same person :laugh:

I still can't quite see the pros/cons of either, to be honest... seems we're doomed either way.

"Aye, we're doomed, we're all doomed!"

:eek:

[joeysteele]

All news corps incuding the times and the FT would want out.

The Times is definitely considered eurosceptic, the problem is although some press may not fully support withdrawal from the EU,most are in the main eurosceptic.
As a starting point that would not, in my opinion,indicate a balanced and fair debate being reported.

I agree with MTVN that all 3 party leaders would be in favour of staying in but what if David Cameron only got token gestures of change rather than anything substantial.

Then that would be the main headlines, 'PM wins nothing really from the EU'.
So having tied the negotiations to holding a referendum after that he has tied many hands really.
With headlines like that it could well be that more would still prefer to stay in but far fewer of them would make the effort to go and vote in a referendum, whereas those really set against the EU would cross mountains likely to make sure they got out and voted to come out.

There is just too much uncertainty to the whole process and I really cannot see the EU giving much at all to negotiations with David Cameron, the EU is much larger now, give concessions to one nation then likely many others will demand the same.
I cannot see him getting anything of much merit.
The EU would go on without the UK but our life could be made much more difficult outside the EU in my view.

[Kizzy]

Don't think the FT is a news corp paper, and I'm not sure about the Times, yeah I know they're owned by Murdoch but they've always been a pretty centrist/centre-right paper and have never professed any overt euroscepticism

You're right mtvn it isn't soz
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14030051?oo=420

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22542083

A leading supporter of re-negotiating the UK's position in the EU made the largest donation to the Labour Party in the first quarter of this year.

John Mills, the chairman of Business for Britain, an organisation which lobbies for EU powers to be returned, donated £1.65m in shares.

This was more than twice the amount given by the next biggest contributor, the Unite union.

Mr Mills is the brother-in-law of former Labour minister Tessa Jowell.

He is the founder and Chairman of JML, an online shopping and retail company and a long-time Labour member, who served as finance chief councillor on Camden Council until 2006.

'Better deal'

Mr Mills also chairs the recently formed Labour for a Referendum group, which wants the party to commit to an in-out referendum on Europe.

Writing on the Labour Uncut website, said said: "To boost jobs and growth, British business has to be competitive, and it is with this aim in mind that Business for Britain is seeking a better EU deal to help pave the way towards economic prosperity."

Labour leader Ed Miliband has ruled out offering a referendum on the EU for the moment, but Labour For a Referendum argues that this will damage the party's prospects at the next election.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

:cool:

[joeysteele]

I think this is likely, it would now surprise me if Labour also don't offer a referendum to be honest.
Really any govt. worth anything should be trying to gain a better deal on things as to the EU.

If I was Ed Miliband,I would sit back and watch how all this chaos in the Conservative progresses before I made any commitment to a referendum.
He clearly doesn't want one but I do feel events will likely take over and he may need to offer one by 2015.

Even in that situation,if I wanted a referendum,which I don't, I would more likely put my trust in him to actually deliver one than in David Cameron.

I know of a good few Labour MPs who do want a referendum,the good thing for Labour last night is that they stuck by their leader and didn't vote for one while the Conservatives had near or even half of their backbench take matters into their own hands and vote against their own govts. decision not to include a referendum commitment in their govts.own Queen's speech.

Doesn't sound like a competent party for to continue in govt for me.

One thing is for sure though, Nigel Farage and UKIP have certainly strirred things up and made the biggest change as to politics in the UK by now not just setting the talking point agenda but also as to the main parties policy making too.
I expect Nigel Farage will be really enjoying watching all this develop and full credit to him for exposing the haphazard plans of the Conservatives and making the others likely have to think their positions too.

[Suze]

IMO, he's already a gonner and won't be leading the Tories into the next election ..... :pipe:

I agree, I was saying the same to my older sister the other day.

[Omah]

If I was Ed Miliband,I would sit back and watch how all this chaos in the Conservative progresses before I made any commitment to a referendum.
He clearly doesn't want one but I do feel events will likely take over and he may need to offer one by 2015.

Miliband may be a mere MP by then, too ..... :pipe:

[Kizzy]

I don't think many actually know what a full opt out would entail, just opting out of EU crime and justice would have dire consequences, no wonder dave is dragging his heels here and he only has 12 months left to decide...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19946466

[joeysteele]

I still cannot see Labour losing the election now, they may miss out just on an overall majority but not lose it. I expect at the very least a Labour/Lib Dem coalition.
The Conservatives will never get an agreement with the Lib Dems with the EU issue in the future in my view.

I also cannot see Labour replacing Ed Miliband either although you Omah could have a point.
I wouldn't completely rule that out simply because a new leader could more credibly come in and be in favour of a referendum too.

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20448450

David Cameron has promised a referendum on whether Britain should remain in the European Union in 2017, if the Conservatives win the next general election. Here is a summary of the key arguments for and against British membership.

Food for thought ..... :idc:

[Omah]

I also cannot see Labour replacing Ed Miliband either although you Omah could have a point.

Clegg will be replaced, too ..... ;)

It will be a completely new ball game, with UKIP being the only major political party to retain their current leader ..... :eureka:

[Kizzy]

Clegg will be replaced, too ..... ;)

It will be a completely new ball game, with UKIP being the only major political party to retain their current leader ..... :eureka:

no doubt about that, he was caught between a rock and a hard place cosying up to the tories. Really looking forward to his autobiography, it may explain why he made some of the catastrophic decisions he did.
A libdem/ conservative alliance was never going to be easy. I would love to see more of Ed, I think an intellectual running the country would be beneficial.
Farage is a joke, he has no depth to his reasonings.

[Nedusa]

Clegg will be replaced, too ..... ;)

It will be a completely new ball game, with UKIP being the only major political party to retain their current leader ..... :eureka:

Similar to the state of play at the top of the Premier League with only Arsenal keeping the same Manager (Man Utd,Man City & Chelsea all changing their's)

[Omah]

Similar to the state of play at the top of the Premier League with only Arsenal keeping the same Manager (Man Utd,Man City & Chelsea all changing their's)

An excellent analogy .... :thumbs:

[Vicky.]

Joey, holding an EU referendum on the same day as the General Election is a good idea, not sure how it would pan out legally. Also, local elections (District) are taking place on the same day as the General. And next May there are European elections. The MEPs have to step up and explain a lot of stuff, I reckon. People need much more information before they vote on Europe in my opinion. I've read a lot of information at work about Europe but I still don't know which way I'd vote.

As for Cameron continuing to lead the Tories... I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't make it to the next election, and Boris swoops in to save them.

I think if it was Boris..the tories might actually stand a chance. He seems quite popular..even I cant help myself liking him sometimes :laugh:

[Nedusa]

I think if it was Boris..the tories might actually stand a chance. He seems quite popular..even I cant help myself liking him sometimes :laugh:

I'm not sold on the idea of Boris Johnson becoming leader of the Conservative Party and thus a possible future Prime Minister. Whilst I agree he is likeable,lovable and straight talking..........I question whether he has the statesman like qualities needed to lead at the highest levels. He also has the abilty to make gaffes and can appear quite bumbling at times.

Not sure he would be taken seriously on the World stage....!!!!

[Kizzy]

Has anyone read the views and opinions of 'fluffy' boris?....wolf in sheeps clothing that one!

[Suze]

Has anyone read the views and opinions of 'fluffy' boris?....wolf in sheeps clothing that one!

I am not a fan of Boris at all.

[Jack_]

Boris is a great speaker but his politics are frightening. I'd rather have Dave over him

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22585228

David Cameron is losing control of his party over Europe, former Conservative cabinet minister Lord Howe has said.

The Tory leadership is "running scared" of its backbenchers by offering to renegotiate the UK's relationship with Brussels, he said in the Observer.

He also warned that if a proposed referendum led to the UK leaving the EU, there would be dire consequences for the country's global influence.

The Tories said the PM's position on seeking to return powers was unchanged.

Lord Howe's warning comes amid press reports that a figure close to the prime minister called grassroots Conservatives pushing for an EU referendum "mad, swivel-eyed loons".

No 10 denied "anyone in Downing Street" had made the remarks, while party co-chairman Lord Feldman said he was taking legal advice over "untrue" web rumours he had made "derogatory comments".

Writing in Sunday's Observer newspaper, Lord Howe said Mr Cameron had "opened a Pandora's box politically and seems to be losing control of his party in the process", over his plan to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the European Union.

"The ratchet-effect of Euroscepticism has now gone so far that the Conservative leadership is in effect running scared of its own backbenchers, let alone UKIP, having allowed deep anti-Europeanism to infect the very soul of the party," wrote Lord Howe, a former foreign secretary, chancellor and deputy prime minister under Margaret Thatcher.

He added: "The Conservative Party's long, nervous breakdown over Europe continues and what is essentially a Tory problem is now, once again, becoming a national problem.

"Serious mistakes have been made, but the situation is not irretrievable."

Lord Howe Lord Howe is a former foreign secretary and chancellor
A "mixture of clear thinking, strong leadership and an overriding concern for the national interest, not party management or advantage" was needed, he said.

RBTL. David's days are numbered ..... ;)

[joeysteele]

Well it was really Geoffrey Howe that made the main speech that led to Mrs Thatcher's downfall, who knows now.

I mostly agree with him, I support being in Europe, if there was a fair and balanced debate on Europe then possibly I would be in favour of a referendum.
We will not however get that from the media at all overall.
I fear more people will be even more confused as to the EU after such a debate than they were likely before.

I know a lot of people who would prefer to stay in the EU, however few of them would bother to go out and vote in a referendum and especially if it was held way after a General election, the turnout would be really likely poor overall anyway.
The people I know who are against being the EU, they would go out in hail rain or snow to cast their votes so determined are they to that cause.

It could well be that even after a long debate as to Europe, what happens is more would possibly prefer to remain in the EU but would just sit back and not vote in a very badly timed referendum,which could see up sleepwalk out of Europe as those against it likely near all cast their votes..

That is what is dangerous as to this whole idea of David Cameron's and as Lord Howe says, it could have dire consequences for the UK overall.

[Kizzy]

The thatcherites are massing.... Let them all defect to UKIP with the rest of the blinkered pompous xenophobes. Did anyone see farage in Scotland? faced with a handful of protesters he came apart at the seams and refused an interview! Spineless and incompetent.

[Omah]

Another Tory schism is in the offing ..... :evilgrin:

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22585916# (video)


He told Jeremy Vine that the current relationship was not working in Britain's interest and Conservative backbenchers wanted a new relationship based on trade.

Speaking on the Andrew Marr Show the Conservative MP said that this negotiation 'won't wait' because ministers were unable to do what they wanted to do as 'Europe won't let them'.

[arista]

oh dear
david camon it not looking good for you


Rubbish
Life goes on


This Week he is in Europe


Swizel- Eyed Loons can relax


Life In The Fast Lane

[arista]

The thatcherites are massing.... Let them all defect to UKIP with the rest of the blinkered pompous xenophobes. Did anyone see farage in Scotland? faced with a handful of protesters he came apart at the seams and refused an interview! Spineless and incompetent.


Yes that was Amazing
Lucky Police Protected him

[arista]

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/184537_533601226686647_623455705_n.jpg

[Kizzy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22585916# (video)

Knew that it was all based on trade, they want to barter with tyrants like maggie did.

[arista]

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8386296.ece/BINARY/original/Daily-cartoon-20121201.jpg

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22586142

The Conservative Party is "united" and David Cameron is showing leadership on Britain's relationship with Europe, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has said.

Mr Hunt's intervention comes amid media reports of splits within the Conservatives, and anger among party activists at reported comments by a member of Mr Cameron's inner circle that Tory grassroots Eurosceptics were "mad, swivel-eyed loons".

The health secretary told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show that he did not believe anyone close to Mr Cameron made those comments and they did not reflect the views of the prime minister.

He added: "If you look at the substance of the issue, the Conservative Party is absolutely united.

"We look at the European Union and we worry about Britain's ability to compete in the global race... the Conservative Party says if we are going to be successful in that global race we need to renegotiate our relationship with Europe and give the British people a say."

Mr Cameron was "showing leadership" and not sweeping serious issues under the carpet: "He and I would like to have a relationship with Europe where we can stay in the European Union and be confident we can be successful in the global race," Mr Hunt said.

Fine words from "Mr Incompetunt" but they butter no parsnips ..... :laugh2:

[arista]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2013/5/18/1368880523923/Chris-Riddell-19-May-2013-006.jpg

[billy123]

Has anyone read the views and opinions of 'fluffy' boris?....wolf in sheeps clothing that one!The scary part is people dont take the time to look beyond his buffoon act they would vote for him because he is wacky when the truth he is a manipulative nasty piece of work. But he is wacky yay! that really is a worry i despair sometimes.

If he became leader his court jester act would go on while the torys continued to suck the last few drops of blood out of Britain.

[joeysteele]

I think he is a dangerous PM, playing with so many issues that are really important and need careful thought and more to the point cross party consensus preferably really.

He just dives in with what the thinks seems a popular measure then makes a massive mess of presentation and then the whole run through as to it too.
He allows rumour to run rife for ages before trying to clamp down on things and seem to gather any sort of control as to events.
He had this chaos with the NHS reforms too.

Now he is allowing his MPs to talk about some arrangement or joint standing in the 2015 election with UKIP.
It is getting really ridiculous.

I hope he and the Conservatives stay where they are in the polls because, (I doubt it very much but cannot rule out),just maybe the Scots so fed up of being ignored on major issues,may feel rather than risk another Conservative Govt literally dictating to them, a Conservative Govt too possibly leading to a sleepwalk out of the EU that they may well come to think 'independence' is the better option.

This PM is walking a dangerous path on 2 major issues, he could lead us,( and he excludes the Welsh too, hardly anyone talks of Wales in Conservative circles as to the EU issue), to the break up of the UK as we know it and also out on a limb from the EU too.
All this on an issue he has no intention of doing anything at all about for at least 2 years, which will also be dependent on him getting an overall majority in 2015, something he failed terribly to do in 2010,with no final resolution for at least 4 to 5 years as to it from now either.

What shortsightedness and not only pathetically poor leadership of his party but of the entire UK as well.

[arista]

"Now he is allowing his MPs to talk about some arrangement or joint standing in the 2015 election with UKIP.
It is getting really ridiculous."

No he is not saying anything on those MP's doing Joint UKIP.

You jump the Gun to much, young man

[joeysteele]

"Now he is allowing his MPs to talk about some arrangement or joint standing in the 2015 election with UKIP.
It is getting really ridiculous."

No he is not saying anything on those MP's doing Joint UKIP.

You jump the Gun to much, young man

They had Jacob Rees-Mogg or whatever his name is and Nadine Dorries on about it over the weekend on TV, they are talking about it and publicly too.

He just sits back hoping these things go away, then they get bigger, if he nipped these things in the bud and got a grip of things people may actually at least think about respecting a little more.

One was even talking about the Conservatives and UKIP having their logos side by side on ballot papers in an electoral pact for goodness sake.

[arista]

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224781

Yes I am fully aware of Bitch Nadine

The PM is on travels
soon to Europe

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22585093

A "crisis" over same-sex marriage, Europe and attitudes towards its grassroots is threatening to destroy the Tory party, activists say.

Ben Harris-Quinney, Director of Conservative Grassroots, organised a letter and petition signed by 34 former and current local association chairmen, largely criticising the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill for England and Wales, which returns to the Commons on Monday.

They complained of a "crisis of conservatism" and three issues which were currently "destroying the party" - Europe, same-sex marriage and the "contempt" for party membership from the leadership - as demonstrated by the "loons" comment.

"Your refusal to listen to reason and grassroots opinion is causing many previously loyal Conservatives to leave the party," they wrote.

"Some are lost forever and many will not contemplate re-joining unless the [same-sex marriage] Bill is abandoned or the party leadership changed."

They said the bill had led to voters switching to the UK Independence Party and claimed it made winning the next general election "virtually impossible".

On Europe, Mr Harris-Quinney said there was "nothing wrong with David Cameron's position on Europe as things stand" but both sides of the debate had been "angered by the process and lack of clarity in getting there".

"This is the problem in the Conservative Party now, there is no vision or narrative."

Bob Woollard, chairman of Conservative Grassroots, told the BBC the same-sex marriage bill had "upset countless people and caused many, many people - hundreds, maybe thousands, to leave the party over this issue".

He said if there was no change it would be a "slippery slope downwards" with "more party members leaving the party, getting utterly disenchanted and frustrated that nobody is listening to them".

UKIP FTW ..... :pipe:

[arista]

Yes we will see in 2015
If UKIP win any seats

or Conservative with UKIP win many seats

[joeysteele]

UKIP actually would be daft to have anything to do with the Conservatives, they would lose their own identity.

The Conservative party is clearly very desperate to be even talking like this,any of them.
Nigel Farage must be in near hysterics at the near shambles the Conservatives are in.
Almost leaderless too because David Cameron seems totally unable to take control or appear to even have much authority at all.

[arista]

UKIP actually would be daft to have anything to do with the Conservatives, they would lose their own identity.

The Conservative party is clearly very desperate to be even talking like this,any of them.
Nigel Farage must be in near hysterics at the near shambles the Conservatives are in.
Almost leaderless too because David Cameron seems totally unable to take control or appear to even have much authority at all.


The depends
if a joint vote beats Labour

And split up Labour could win in some places

Thats what this is about

[joeysteele]

The depends
if a joint vote beats Labour

And split up Labour could win in some places

Thats what this is about

I think it is totally ridiculous and I would say that if it was Labour or the Lib Dems advocating it too.
I think it will massively backfire on the Conservative party and deservedly so too.
This makes them look really weak and even more desperate after all they have said as to UKIP. In fact it is massively hypocritical of them too.

I mean, my Parents were,(were now being the operative word), lifelong Conservative voters, they hate UKIP with a passion and they are totally dumbfounded at these antics of this led Conservative Govt.

[arista]

I think it is totally ridiculous and I would say that if it was Labour or the Lib Dems advocating it too.
I think it will massively backfire on the Conservative party and deservedly so too.
This makes them look really weak and even more desperate after all they have said as to UKIP. In fact it is massively hypocritical of them too.

I mean, my Parents were,(were now being the operative word), lifelong Conservative voters, they hate UKIP with a passion and they are totally dumbfounded at these antics of this led Conservative Govt.

But in your area it may not be a merge.


In some places UKIP have more than Conservative votes
so can you not understand the panic

[joeysteele]

But in your area it may not be a merge.


In some places UKIP have more than Conservative votes
so can you not understand the panic

I think in most places the Conservative vote will drop and UKIPs rise, however that doesn't mean that many extra votes really.It will save or bring in some seats but overall still enough will be lost and badly lost too by the Cosnervatives in my view.
Strong Labour and Lib Dem voters will not give as much as maybe people think they will as to extra votes to make that much difference.

I can well understand the Conservative party's panic but what they advocate doing because of that I don't understand at all and furthermore I don't think the bulk of voters will like it or respond to it either.

As I say, I believe this will,if it was even attempted,badly backfire on the Conservatives and not just for the 2015 election either but for a good while beyond that.

[Omah]

The more the three main parties dissolve into chaos, the less voters care about the outcome - they just want answers on the important issues like employment, corruption and immigration .... :pipe:

[arista]

The more the three main parties dissolve into chaos, the less voters care about the outcome - they just want answers on the important issues like employment, corruption and immigration .... :pipe:


Yes and if we have TV debates UKIP
should be on it.
But they are trying to stop them

[joeysteele]

I 100% agree that UKIP should be included in the leaders debates this time. I doubt David Cameron is looking forward to any of them.
Also apparantly UKIP have indicated they would scrap the bedroom tax/charge,the Conservatives won't like that.

[Livia]

I agree that UKIP should be included in the leaders debates. It's about time someone scratched their shiney surface so we could all take a peak at what's underneath.

[joeysteele]

I agree that UKIP should be included in the leaders debates. It's about time someone scratched their shiney surface so we could all take a peak at what's underneath.

Definitely, much more scrutiny is needed as to their other policies.

[Omah]

I 100% agree that UKIP should be included in the leaders debates this time.

I agree that UKIP should be included in the leaders debates.

I agree that UKIP should be included in the leaders debates, too.

[Livia]

I agree that UKIP should be included in the leaders debates, too.

Please don't edit my comments. I did say I agree that UKIP should be included, but there was a clause to my comment which you have deleted.

[arista]

Yes Naughty Omah

[Nedusa]

I think the voting masses are starting to wake up after years of blindly voting for one of two main parties usually across social and class divides. I think the current austerity period we are now experiencing is focussing people's thoughts on what they actually want from their political leaders. The Main parties seem to just talk but then continue with their usual agendas.

People are now looking for better representation from their elected leaders, they want their voices to be heard and acted upon, this is why UKIP is now showing well in the polls. Hopefully we may now start to see more representation of the ordinary man in the street

Perhaps a political revolution is at hand...!!!

[Omah]

Please don't edit my comments. I did say I agree that UKIP should be included, but there was a clause to my comment which you have deleted.

I didn't agree with your clause, though ..... :shrug:

[Omah]

I think the voting masses are starting to wake up after years of blindly voting for one of two main parties usually across social and class divides. I think the current austerity period we are now experiencing is focussing people's thoughts on what they actually want from their political leaders. The Main parties seem to just talk but then continue with their usual agendas.

People are now looking for better representation from their elected leaders, they want their voices to be heard and acted upon, this is why UKIP is now showing well in the polls. Hopefully we may now start to see more representation of the ordinary man in the street

Perhaps a political revolution is at hand...!!!

Yeah, power to the people !

:cool:

[joeysteele]

I do have to say and in fact concede too,I am finding people who have voted for all 3 main parties who are now going to or are considering strongly voting for UKIP.

The majority of them have voted Conservative before. This is going to go on and on and with the European elections to come before the General election in 2015 too, UKIP could get a position as to the polls that may be really difficult to erase by then.

[Omah]

I do have to say and in fact concede too,I am finding people who have voted for all 3 main parties who are now going to or are considering strongly voting for UKIP.

I appreciate your concession ..... :pipe:

[GiRTh]

Surely the Tories don't think a move to the right will win them the next election?

[Livia]

Surely the Tories don't think a move to the right will win them the next election?

Frankly, I don't think there's very much they can do that will win them the next election because they've ****ed up so monumentally. They've not only angered their opponents, they've upset and alienated their core voters. They're toast, I'm afraid. Only Boris can save them now...

[GiRTh]

Frankly, I don't think there's very much they can do that will win them the next election because they've ****ed up so monumentally. They've not only angered their opponents, they've upset and alienated their core voters. They're toast, I'm afraid. Only Boris can save them now...
Boris who? Becker? Surely not Johnson?

The thought of him getting more power chills my blood.

[Omah]

Frankly, I don't think there's very much they can do that will win them the next election because they've ****ed up so monumentally. They've not only angered their opponents, they've upset and alienated their core voters. They're toast, I'm afraid. Only Boris can save them now...

BIB ..... :wink:

[joeysteele]

Frankly, I don't think there's very much they can do that will win them the next election because they've ****ed up so monumentally. They've not only angered their opponents, they've upset and alienated their core voters. They're toast, I'm afraid. Only Boris can save them now...

Hi Livia,Very interesting points there. as ever.
Do you think Boris would consider doing anything or be persuaded to before the next election as to running for the leadership.

He isn't an MP so would need to grab the next available by election wouldn't he.
Can you see that happening or do you think he will wait for it to come about after the 2015 general election rather than before it.

[GiRTh]

Where is all this Boris love coming from? The mans a buffoon.

[Kizzy]

An evil buffoon... He is like sideshow bob!

[Omah]

Nick Robinson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22604185

He was young. He was handsome. He said what they wanted to hear.

It was time, he told them, to show they cared, to move with the times. They needn't worry, though, because he shared their core beliefs.

David Cameron had reassured his party that he was a staunch believer in marriage but the coalition is proposing to promote marriages which many Tory activists do not regard as marriages at all - between two men or two women and not a man and a woman.

The proposal was not in the Tory manifesto and it was not in the coalition agreement. Many Tories suspect that it was unveiled to show the prime minister in a Clause Four style challenge to his own grassroots - or, as someone may or may not have said, the "swivel-eyed loons."

The prime minister convinced his party that he was a sceptic about another relationship - Britain's membership of the EU but many do not understand why he won't now take advantage of the crisis in the Euro-zone to sue for divorce.

And now he's being challenged by a man with a twinkle in his eye, a pint in his hand who says the things many Tories would dearly love to say - things that Nigel will say but David never would.

The match between Mr Cameron and the Conservative Party was never based on love or passion. It was a cold blooded political calculation. It's now in real trouble.

Taxi for Cameron ..... :pipe:

[Livia]

Taxi for Cameron ..... :pipe:

I think it would do him a lot of good to take the bus.

[Omah]

I think it would do him a lot of good to take the bus.

Or get back on his bike ..... ;)

[Nedusa]

Or get back on his bike ..... ;)

Or use a Boris Bike...!!!!

[GiRTh]

I don't like the idea of the Tories moving to the right, but if they do at least it'll keep them out of office for the foreseeable future.

[Livia]

I don't like the idea of the Tories moving to the right, but if they do at least it'll keep them out of office for the foreseeable future.

Not sure I agree, considering the popularity of UKIP right now. I think the further right they go, the more some people will like it. And it is, sadly, those people who are likely to get off their backsides and vote.

[GiRTh]

Not sure I agree, considering the popularity of UKIP right now. I think the further right they go, the more some people will like it. And it is, sadly, those people who are likely to get off their backsides and vote.

I kind of agree. UKIP and the conservative remind me of the relationship between the republican and the Tea party in USA. They say a lot that people want to hear but ultimately they cant be taken seriously. I don't think there are enough like minded people in this country to give UKIP a serious shot at power. They'll cause a few upsets but will not make much of a dent IMO.

[Kizzy]

To me this is a death knell for the conservatives, they have proven themselves to be self serving dinosaurs.
The party is in total disarray and the public will soon see that UKIP are in no way a competant party on any issue.

[Livia]

I kind of agree. UKIP and the conservative remind me of the relationship between the republican and the Tea party in USA. They say a lot that people want to hear but ultimately they cant be taken seriously. I don't think there are enough like minded people in this country to give UKIP a serious shot at power. They'll cause a few upsets but will not make much of a dent IMO.

That's a good comparison, I can see that.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Tory Old Guard are now turning to UKIP. I know this because they're taking the time to get in touch, cancel their membership and tell us why, and all these letters and emails are filtering through to backbenchers... which is why they're standing up to Cameron. Unfortunately, by the time most people realise that UKIP have no real policies, it'll be too late. I mean, they were voted in to countless county seats on the strength of European issues. They're making the right noises and people are being led along. Their real test of power is going to be next year's European elections. It'll be make or break for the Tories, I reckon... and at the moment it's looking more break than make.

[Nedusa]

To me this is a death knell for the conservatives, they have proven themselves to be self serving dinosaurs.
The party is in total disarray and the public will soon see that UKIP are in no way a competant party on any issue.

I agree the Tories have shown they do not listen or care what the Electorate say and the swing to UKIP clearly shows this. Whilst I do not think UKIP is able to become a party of Govt at the moment, the real point to all of this is that people are desparate for change from the current Political stalemate. They cry out for a real voice and for that voice to be acted upon on especially with the larger issues like Europe or Immigration etc..

UKIP I think is a way to show to the other parties that they cannot keep taking people's votes for granted. I think major changes are coming to the British Political scene, and not before time...!!!

[GiRTh]

That's a good comparison, I can see that.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Tory Old Guard are now turning to UKIP. I know this because they're taking the time to get in touch, cancel their membership and tell us why, and all these letters and emails are filtering through to backbenchers... which is why they're standing up to Cameron. Unfortunately, by the time most people realise that UKIP have no real policies, it'll be too late. I mean, they were voted in to countless county seats on the strength of European issues. They're making the right noises and people are being led along. Their real test of power is going to be next year's European elections. It'll be make or break for the Tories, I reckon... and at the moment it's looking more break than make.I didn't realise old skool Tories were taking UKIP so seriously. I wonder if these guys actually see UKIP in power or is it a reaction to Camerons lightweight leadership.

[Kizzy]

I agree the Tories have shown they do not listen or care what the Electorate say and the swing to UKIP clearly shows this. Whilst I do not think UKIP is able to become a party of Govt at the moment, the real point to all of this is that people are desparate for change from the current Political stalemate. They cry out for a real voice and for that voice to be acted upon on especially with the larger issues like Europe or Immigration etc..

UKIP I think is a way to show to the other parties that they cannot keep taking people's votes for granted. I think major changes are coming to the British Political scene, and not before time...!!!

Rather than just hysterically screaming out why don't they explain what being out will mean in practical terms to the man on the street?
What the public want is a government that acts on it's manifesto, it's not rocket science.
The social discord is due to people taking our votes, getting into power and doing the polar opposite to their campaign promises.

[Livia]

I didn't realise old skool Tories were taking UKIP so seriously. I wonder if these guys actually see UKIP in power or is it a reaction to Camerons lightweight leadership.

I think it's a mixture of the two things. Tory members were already muttering when the party decided it was going to use gay marriage as a smokescreen for its austerity measures when the issue of gay marriage wasn't even in the manifesto. Sure enough, the people they alienated most were the huntin' fishin' shootin' twin-set-and-pearls wearing blue-rinse membership. They're the people that keep the party afloat not just with votes but with donations and fundraising. Then they alienated them further by hitting pensions. The soft-peddling and sometime/maybe attitude to a European refrendum played into UKIP's hands. I'm not sure whether the government truly understand how many times they've shot themselves in the foot. And this week's comment about party activists being "swivel-eyed loons" came from somewhere. You can't talk about your members like that even if you think it, or they stop giving you money and you end up out of a job. If the government can't see how badly they've ****ed up, then frankly they shouldn't be running the country. Sadly, I don't see any kind of viable alternative.

[Kizzy]

Basically that means all the thatcherites she helped make rich and pour money into the tory coffers as a kickback are cross, they are just not doing as they were paid to do!

[Livia]

Okay... if that's your simplistic take on what I just said.

[GiRTh]

I think it's a mixture of the two things. Tory members were already muttering when the party decided it was going to use gay marriage as a smokescreen for its austerity measures when the issue of gay marriage wasn't even in the manifesto. Sure enough, the people they alienated most were the huntin' fishin' shootin' twin-set-and-pearls wearing blue-rinse membership. They're the people that keep the party afloat not just with votes but with donations and fundraising. Then they alienated them further by hitting pensions. The soft-peddling and sometime/maybe attitude to a European refrendum played into UKIP's hands. I'm not sure whether the government truly understand how many times they've shot themselves in the foot. And this week's comment about party activists being "swivel-eyed loons" came from somewhere. You can't talk about your members like that even if you think it, or they stop giving you money and you end up out of a job. If the government can't see how badly they've ****ed up, then frankly they shouldn't be running the country. Sadly, I don't see any kind of viable alternative.Thanks for that. Good to have a close view of whats going on. :thumbs:

Do these Tories actually see UKIP as an alternative? I shudder at the thought of people actually taking Farage seriously. I think its a very sorry state of affairs when a privileged ex banker like Farage is considered the voice of the people.

What about Labour? Do you think they have fallen so far that they're no longer the main opposition or do you think they can shine under these circumstances?

[Kizzy]

Okay... if that's your simplistic take on what I just said.
Sometimes less is more liv.

[Livia]

Thanks for that. Good to have a close view of whats going on. :thumbs:

Do these Tories actually see UKIP as an alternative? I shudder at the thought of people actually taking Farage seriously. I think its a very sorry state of affairs when a privileged ex banker like Farage is considered the voice of the people.

What about Labour? Do you think they have fallen so far that they're no longer the main opposition or do you think they can shine under these circumstances?

I have far more time for MEPs than I do for MPs, generally. People assume they're all pro-Europe when in most cases, the reverse is true. And Farage has no respect amongst MEPs of all parties. He doesn't turn up to do his job, he misses votes... and yet he is supposed to be there representing the people who voted for him. He paints himself as a non-nonsense realist when in fact he's just rude. I think right now he's appealing to the disenfranchised right and they're the ones mostly voting for him because he knows eactly what they want to hear. But his policies are so sketchy it's hard to know what he's truly offering. He talks about a withdrawal from Europe but has no strategy for it, no plan, no idea how he'll fund it. And when it comes to domestic policies, all he has is a set of bullet points. If UKIP do well in the general election I think we're all doomed. They'll go through cash faster than Labour did.

Labour did a lot of damage when they were in. They took us to war on a lie, they sold our gold reserve at a record low price, the top rate of income tax was lower under them than is is under the Tories... there's a whole list of things they did that their supporters ought to remember, and one of the reasons the global recession hit us so hard is that Labour mishandled the economy. Having said that, people have notoriously short memories when it comes to governments, which is why we've had the Labour/Tory/Labour/Tory thing for so many years. In my opinion, the Conservatives' biggest weapon again Labour is actually Ed Miliband. He's almost as unpopular as Cameron.

[Kizzy]

I don't understand why we are debating the history of the last 50yrs, the economy was on the floor as there were no jobs or infrastructure remember?
And we went to war on the advice of a certain baroness.
Farage will fizzle out, Milliband needs to polish his A game and come out fighting, as an intellectual he is biding his time like a chess player.
Wait for them all to trip over themselves then... checkmate.

[GiRTh]

I have far more time for MEPs than I do for MPs, generally. People assume they're all pro-Europe when in most cases, the reverse is true. And Farage has no respect amongst MEPs of all parties. He doesn't turn up to do his job, he misses votes... and yet he is supposed to be there representing the people who voted for him. He paints himself as a non-nonsense realist when in fact he's just rude. I think right now he's appealing to the disenfranchised right and they're the ones mostly voting for him because he knows eactly what they want to hear. But his policies are so sketchy it's hard to know what he's truly offering. He talks about a withdrawal from Europe but has no strategy for it, no plan, no idea how he'll fund it. And when it comes to domestic policies, all he has is a set of bullet points. If UKIP do well in the general election I think we're all doomed. They'll go through cash faster than Labour did.

Labour did a lot of damage when they were in. They took us to war on a lie, they sold our gold reserve at a record low price, the top rate of income tax was lower under them than is is under the Tories... there's a whole list of things they did that their supporters ought to remember, and one of the reasons the global recession hit us so hard is that Labour mishandled the economy. Having said that, people have notoriously short memories when it comes to governments, which is why we've had the Labour/Tory/Labour/Tory thing for so many years. In my opinion, the Conservatives' biggest weapon again Labour is actually Ed Miliband. He's almost as unpopular as Cameron.We are in agreement, Farage is a complete bluffer. He'll be found out when he has to explain his non existent economic policies. I cant wait to hear his foreign policies too. I agree that he knows what to say to the Tory core but I hope they realise he doesn't have a clue.

[Kizzy]

The Scottish protesters had him pegged, UKIP are the BNP in a better suit.

[joeysteele]

This thread contains some really strong points and observations from both sides.

I myself feel that come the general election UKIP will likely do a great deal better than previous years but somehow not make 20%.
What I find odd in the polls is, as UKIP rise and the Conservatives fall,despite that from the low base the Lib Dems were on anyway, they are falling too and really into near desperate depths,one poll has them on only 7%.

I still believe the Conservatives will not get less than 29/30% in a general election and I also believe a new leader for them would go some way to pulling back some support.
Just as had Gordon Brown been replaced by Labour at this time before the last election, they may well have won at least another 20 seats at least.

Never will I believe the Conservatives are only on 24% like one poll says,just as I never believed in 2010 that the Lib Dems would finish ahead of Labour either despite polls indicating that.
It irritates me the emphasis that gets put on the opinion polls by the media, polls are a sort of guide, nothing else, how many times are they wrong and badly wrong too.

[Omah]

Sometimes less is more.

True ..... :thumbs:

[Livia]

Sometimes less is more liv.

I actually wasn't even talking to you. I was talking to GiRtH.

If you have a problem with my posts, you know, being too long or whatever, please - please - put me on ignore.

[arista]

"It irritates me the emphasis that gets put on the opinion polls by the media,
polls are a sort of guide, nothing else,
how many times are they wrong and badly wrong too."

What about Live Debates
with color lines moving up and down
sometimes confusing the very old.

[joeysteele]

"It irritates me the emphasis that gets put on the opinion polls by the media,
polls are a sort of guide, nothing else,
how many times are they wrong and badly wrong too."

What about Live Debates
with color lines moving up and down
sometimes confusing the very old.

:joker:I find those actually really annoying and not really saying what thepresenter of the programme says they are anyway.

[Kizzy]

I actually wasn't even talking to you. I was talking to GiRtH.

If you have a problem with my posts, you know, being too long or whatever, please - please - put me on ignore.

Yes you were livia, just stop.

[MTVN]

Have got a feeling Dave will still pull it out the bag

[Nedusa]

The Scottish protesters had him pegged, UKIP are the BNP in a better suit.

No ... I think that's a bit unfair, UKIP have a large number of members from all racial and religious backgrounds. They are a respectable Political Party and to liken them to an out and out racist party is the sort of cheap tactic employed by UKIP's detractors when they have run out of normal political argument/debate.

[Livia]

No ... I think that's a bit unfair, UKIP have a large number of members from all racial and religious backgrounds. They are a respectable Political Party and to liken them to an out and out racist party is the sort of cheap tactic employed by UKIP's detractors when they have run out of normal political argument/debate.

I agree, Nedusa. I don't have much time for UKIP, but they are mostly made up of educated people and professionals. As much as I don't agree with them, I don't see how they could be likened to the illiterate, ill-educated, slack-jawed knuckle-draggers that make up the BNP. I believe it is possible to have a discussion about immigration without being a fascist yourself.

[Kizzy]

I stand by what I said, maybe they aren't thugs but still have the same blinkered bigoted views. Ask many of their supporters why they hold the opinion to pull out and I doubt they will be able to give a rational explanation.
It's just a knee jerk reaction to the relaxation of borders to EU citizens by Jerusalem warbling middle England.

[joeysteele]

Have got a feeling Dave will still pull it out the bag

That certainly isn't impossible and as Livia has said on this thread and other threads,(and I always listen to her), it is still near 2 years to the next election.

Personally though,I cannot see him coming out a winner but I would never believe that he couldn't achieve a Gordon Brown in 2010,where the Labour party this time in 2015 were denied an overall majority like the Conservatives were in 2010.

I do think with a new leader, the Conservatives would more than likely certainly achieve that and could maybe even be the largest party or close to being so.
Not however now with David Cameron, I feel myself,he is as a leader seen as really weak, a loser and largely now partly discredited too even by a good chunk of his own party.
Much like Gordon Brown was in the last year or so up to the 2010 election.

Labour made the big mistake of hanging on to Brown until the election in 2010,it was widely seen as a massive error of judgement to do so, for me, the Conservatives can still learn from that and not fall into the same situation and set out to get that new leader with a new vision or even a vision at all.

[Nedusa]

I stand by what I said, maybe they aren't thugs but still have the same blinkered bigoted views. Ask many of their supporters why they hold the opinion to pull out and I doubt they will be able to give a rational explanation.
It's just a knee jerk reaction to the relaxation of borders to EU citizens by Jerusalem warbling middle England.

No I still feel UKIP has a valid argument with respect to unlimited and uncontrolled immigration. The UK will always need workers across all levels from manual to tradesmen to highly skilled professionals but to put it simply the people currently domiciled and working in the UK are paying all the usual bills including mortgages on the houses they have bought. They have families and probably have to work overtime or take second jobs to make ends meet.

So what happens when populations from say Eastern European countries come to work in the UK. They have the same skill sets but they do not have the same overheads ie mortgages or school fees or other debt, they will probably charge less and so easily undercut their UK counterparts.

So now what for all these men and their families, their bills , their mortgages what the hell are they supposed to do ? Drop their rates or work for less... Nonsense how can they ???

This is where uncontrolled immigration from poorer European countries will lead us.. Just creating more problems making the companies and bosses richer whilst the people who live and work in the UK with children in schools Find themselves out of work or having to work for less.

This is unacceptable, UKIP quite rightly has challenged the immigration question and rightly so...!!!

[Kizzy]

No I still feel UKIP has a valid argument with respect to unlimited and uncontrolled immigration. The UK will always need workers across all levels from manual to tradesmen to highly skilled professionals but to put it simply the people currently domiciled and working in the UK are paying all the usual bills including mortgages on the houses they have bought. They have families and probably have to work overtime or take second jobs to make ends meet.

So what happens when populations from say Eastern European countries come to work in the UK. They have the same skill sets but they do not have the same overheads ie mortgages or school fees or other debt, they will probably charge less and so easily undercut their UK counterparts.

So now what for all these men and their families, their bills , their mortgages what the hell are they supposed to do ? Drop their rates or work for less... Nonsense how can they ???

This is where uncontrolled immigration from poorer European countries will lead us.. Just creating more problems making the companies and bosses richer whilst the people who live and work in the UK with children in schools Find themselves out of work or having to work for less.

This is unacceptable, UKIP quite rightly has challenged the immigration question and rightly so...!!!

I don't understand you here, they will not have bills, rent or families?
They come due to our attractive minimum wage, are you saying that there sould be no EU workers in the UK?

[Nedusa]

No, what I'm saying is at the present the EU is made up of a large group of countries each with their own fiscal,economic and tax rules. This results in migrations of workers to the richer parts of the EU. Also countries like the UK with good social benefit systems are indeed a real magnet for workers and families of poorer countries in the EU.

If a large number of workers with similar trades ie plumbers,builders etc come to the UK they usually come first without families and so do not have mortgages (preferring to mayber rent from the private sector) so their overheads are lower and so they can afford to work for less money. This in turn takes the work off workers who are established in the UK and have families + mortgages so need to charge the normal rate.

Bosses can now employ these EE workers for less and this create problems for the established workforce. Also we see from surveys that a large proportion of this money is sent back to these EE countries and so does not go round the money supply in the UK. This in turn does not benefit other UK businesses as the wealth is being siphoned off.

This helps no one in the UK and so my view is that uncontrolled immigration is wrong on so many levels, UKIP have the sense to say what most people already know.

Whats wrong with that...........it certainly does not make them a party like the BNP eg

[Kizzy]

No, what I'm saying is at the present the EU is made up of a large group of countries each with their own fiscal,economic and tax rules. This results in migrations of workers to the richer parts of the EU. Also countries like the UK with good social benefit systems are indeed a real magnet for workers and families of poorer countries in the EU.

If a large number of workers with similar trades ie plumbers,builders etc come to the UK they usually come first without families and so do not have mortgages (preferring to mayber rent from the private sector) so their overheads are lower and so they can afford to work for less money. This in turn takes the work off workers who are established in the UK and have families + mortgages so need to charge the normal rate.

Bosses can now employ these EE workers for less and this create problems for the established workforce. Also we see from surveys that a large proportion of this money is sent back to these EE countries and so does not go round the money supply in the UK. This in turn does not benefit other UK businesses as the wealth is being siphoned off.

This helps no one in the UK and so my view is that uncontrolled immigration is wrong on so many levels, UKIP have the sense to say what most people already know.

Whats wrong with that...........it certainly does not make them a party like the BNP eg

They have families and property at home, that is why they send money back they also have to live and work here.
How can they employ them for less, They have to go through PAYE don't they?