Birmingham college bans 2 Female Muslim students from covering faces

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/10/article-2416632-1BBB21CB000005DC-527_306x423.jpg
Imaani Ali, 17, believes the ban on veils is a breach of her freedom



Feck Me this is a College Rule
they are taking the Piss.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416632/Muslim-students-banned-wearing-niqab-Birmingham-Met-college-security-reasons.html#ixzz2eewcxK8p


They were both on Ch4 News
last night.

Is this a sex thing?

[Livia]

If a man wanted to attend the college and wear a balaclava all day I'm sure there would be objections on security grounds, so why not with a face-veil? I have no problem with people wearing religious garb... but the full-face covering is unacceptable to me.

This woman believes that a ban on her face-veil is against her freedom. I don't agree. What's against a woman's freedom is to live in a Muslim country where girls are refused education, or even sometimes medical attention. Making an issue of the face-veil is just deflecting the attention from more serious issues.

[joeysteele]

I agree with the College,in this current age with all sorts of dangers about, I feel we all should have the right to see who we are sharing the streets with,stores and indeed all other public places too.

[Nedusa]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/10/article-2416632-1BBB21CB000005DC-527_306x423.jpg
Imaani Ali, 17, believes the ban on veils is a breach of her freedom



Feck Me this is a College Rule
they are taking the Piss.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416632/Muslim-students-banned-wearing-niqab-Birmingham-Met-college-security-reasons.html#ixzz2eewcxK8p


They were both on Ch4 News
last night.

Is this a sex thing?

I don't like to see women walking around with a small tent wrapped around them covered from head to foot.....why would anybody want to do that ??

And to make it only apply to women and to use religion as the supposed reason is outrageous in the extreme.

And for these women to think they actually have made a conscious decision to dress like this is utter self delusion. these women are FORCED by their husbands using religion as the excuse to dress like this, some of them have conditioned themselves to believe in this claptrap as a way of sidestepping the real issue of being bullied by their menfolk into doing this.

No woman......No woman would willingly, wantonly dress like this in public it is utterly ridiculous.

I wish this type of dress was banned in Public places in the UK (like France) it makes my blood boil when I see women abused like this....!!!!!

[Kazanne]

I agree with the College,in this current age with all sorts of dangers about, I feel we all should have the right to see who we are sharing the streets with,stores and indeed all other public places too.

I agree Joey,no need in this country to go about with faces covered,it's not our culture,we would have to adhere to their rules in their country ,so why not adhere to ours.

[Kizzy]

I guess we will be following Europe?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13038095

[HBB1508]

This really winds me up - we are in the UK it's not our religion. If they want to dress like that go back to your own country if you want to live here follow our laws - simple.

[arista]

This really winds me up - we are in the UK it's not our religion. If they want to dress like that go back to your own country if you want to live here follow our laws - simple.



They are English
but taking the piss.



The College
has the last say , not them

[arista]

I guess we will be following Europe?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13038095


No
this is just about the College Rules


europe can feck off

[MTVN]

This really winds me up - we are in the UK it's not our religion. If they want to dress like that go back to your own country if you want to live here follow our laws - simple.

You can be a Muslim and British, we are a secular country and thankfully our laws do allow for other religions to express themselves as they feel appropriate and it is not for us to dictate what they can and cannot wear

If Birmingham college want to implement this rule I suppose that is their right but it will thankfully not become law in this country

[Tom4784]

It's a security issue, few places allow people to cover their faces so I think it's foolish and attention grabbing for these students to kick up a fuss when it's a rule that everyone has to follow.

[Cherie]

It's a security issue, few places allow people to cover their faces so I think it's foolish and attention grabbing for these students to kick up a fuss when it's a rule that everyone has to follow.

I agree, they probably have the same policy for hoods, so just follow the rules. If we start going down the path of changing the rules to suit individuals where would it all end, stuff like this makes a complete mockery of human rights. Ship them to Syria if they want to claim breach of human rights. Honestly.

[arista]

I agree, they probably have the same policy for hoods, so just follow the rules. If we start going down the path of changing the rules to suit individuals where would it all end, stuff like this makes a complete mockery of human rights. Ship them to Syria if they want to claim breach of human rights. Honestly.


Yes they do
hoods are banned.


There is something odd about those girls

[Vicky.]

If a man wanted to attend the college and wear a balaclava all day I'm sure there would be objections on security grounds, so why not with a face-veil? I have no problem with people wearing religious garb... but the full-face covering is unacceptable to me.

This woman believes that a ban on her face-veil is against her freedom. I don't agree. What's against a woman's freedom is to live in a Muslim country where girls are refused education, or even sometimes medical attention. Making an issue of the face-veil is just deflecting the attention from more serious issues.

It's a security issue, few places allow people to cover their faces so I think it's foolish and attention grabbing for these students to kick up a fuss when it's a rule that everyone has to follow.

Agree 100% with both of these.

This really winds me up - we are in the UK it's not our religion. If they want to dress like that go back to your own country if you want to live here follow our laws - simple.

This might be 'their' country?

I think they are ridiculous to kick up a fuss about this, but I don't really think theres any need for the cries of 'but this is england' or whatever.

[HBB1508]

Sorry but last time I looked this was England maybe I got that wrong. Maybe this is their country and if so they should respect the laws as much as I do - just my opinion.

[arista]

Sorry but last time I looked this was England maybe I got that wrong. Maybe this is their country and if so they should respect the laws as much as I do - just my opinion.

look
So far they were on Ch4 news Exclusive
and debated on BBC1 this monring
in all papers.


This is a False set up for them to get Media
and even Fox News America
And India News

[Cherie]

Sorry but last time I looked this was England maybe I got that wrong. Maybe this is their country and if so they should respect the laws as much as I do - just my opinion.

absolutely right if the rules were in place before they accepted their places at College then they have to abide by them.

[arista]

absolutely right if the rules were in place before they accepted their places at College then they have to abide by them.


Yes and they were given a sheet with the rules,
so this is a Stunt.
(ref ch4news )

They seem to want to get on every News Station now
but the story is dead
as they are taking the piss


I smell a Rat

[Mystic Mock]

As I see it if people aren't allowed to wear hoodies then I don't believe that people should be allowed to wear a face-veil.

Both hoodies and face-veil's are dangerous to have in College as well because what if someone did commit a crime at the College and because of the hoodie or face-veil they couldn't tell what the person looked like? I totally agree with the College on this decision and I hope others follow.

[hijaxers]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/10/article-2416632-1BBB21CB000005DC-527_306x423.jpg
Imaani Ali, 17, believes the ban on veils is a breach of her freedom



Feck Me this is a College Rule
they are taking the Piss.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416632/Muslim-students-banned-wearing-niqab-Birmingham-Met-college-security-reasons.html#ixzz2eewcxK8p


They were both on Ch4 News
last night.

Is this a sex thing?





i don't see why this is breaching her right to freedom - she is free to find another college ! Whats the problem

[Nedusa]

i don't see why this is breaching her right to freedom - she is free to find another college ! Whats the problem

She has no freedom.........she trapped behind yards of black cloth, unable to see properly or hear properly. she cannot see the sky or hear the birds, she probably cannot smell the flowers properly through that garb.

She cannot take in the simple pleasures of walking out in the fresh air on a summers day.

She is imprisoned in jail of her own making, so utterly brainwashed that she actually believes she wants to walk around like this.

So sad........I think the Govt need to step in and help outlaw this as it is clearly an infringement on these women's basic human rights......the right to freedom to enjoy nature in all its forms...

This inhumane degrading practice has to be stopped...NOW !!!!

[Vicky.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24072854

College appears to have backed down due to media stories :rolleyes:

[Cherie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24072854

College appears to have backed down due to media stories :rolleyes:

Fecks sake.

[Ninastar]

People should be allowed to be who they are and believe what they want. But i think when theres security risks like in this case, the college is right and she should be told not to wear it.

[the truth]

If a man wanted to attend the college and wear a balaclava all day I'm sure there would be objections on security grounds, so why not with a face-veil? I have no problem with people wearing religious garb... but the full-face covering is unacceptable to me.

This woman believes that a ban on her face-veil is against her freedom. I don't agree. What's against a woman's freedom is to live in a Muslim country where girls are refused education, or even sometimes medical attention. Making an issue of the face-veil is just deflecting the attention from more serious issues.

Some areas of some Muslim dominated countries perhaps. Though Iran has more female graduates than male

[Niall]

As many have highlighted in this thread already, the college is well within its rights to do this. It's a security issue, and they should be complicit with the laws as is everyone else. Personally I don't understand how full-face veil is a practical or even comfortable piece of clothing to wear but whatever..

[Ninastar]

its sad that these women are forced to believe that wearing these things are good for them. I always have the greatest sympathy for them when I see them in town on a boiling hot day.

[Me. I Am Salman]

tbh they should have just gone to another college

[Niamh.]

If a man wanted to attend the college and wear a balaclava all day I'm sure there would be objections on security grounds, so why not with a face-veil? I have no problem with people wearing religious garb... but the full-face covering is unacceptable to me.

This woman believes that a ban on her face-veil is against her freedom. I don't agree. What's against a woman's freedom is to live in a Muslim country where girls are refused education, or even sometimes medical attention. Making an issue of the face-veil is just deflecting the attention from more serious issues.

I agree. I don't want to spout the "go back to your on country" nonsense but I mean lets be honest here, if any of us went to a strict Muslim country we would be expected to live by their rules and punished for breaking them, I don't see why it doesn't work the other way round as well.

[Niamh.]

its sad that these women are forced to believe that wearing these things are good for them. I always have the greatest sympathy for them when I see them in town on a boiling hot day.

Me too, we were in Venice during the summer and I remember seeing a couple and the woman was covered head to toe in one of those veils in the hot sun and her husband was in a shorts and t-shirt, it was terrible to see.

[user104658]

The only reason I take issue with them saying it restricts their religious freedom is that it's apparently not even the case. Having the face covered is not a religious requirement of Islam... it's completely cultural, and has nothing to do with religion. In short; it's a choice. As is going to college. Therefore she has a decision to make... lose the veil and continue going to college, or keep wearing the veil and stop going to college. No one is forcing her by law to remove the veil - THAT would be a restriction on her freedom - she has a choice. That is freedom.

I mean ... I find my work shoes horribly uncomfortable, I much prefer to wear trainers, in fact I keep my shoes at work and travel to/from work in trainers and then change into my shoes there. That's how much I hate wearing them. Could I go to the papers and claim that my employers are restricting my freedom of footwear choice??

[MTVN]

The only reason I take issue with them saying it restricts their religious freedom is that it's apparently not even the case. Having the face covered is not a religious requirement of Islam... it's completely cultural, and has nothing to do with religion. In short; it's a choice. As is going to college. Therefore she has a decision to make... lose the veil and continue going to college, or keep wearing the veil and stop going to college. No one is forcing her by law to remove the veil - THAT would be a restriction on her freedom - she has a choice. That is freedom.

I mean ... I find my work shoes horribly uncomfortable, I much prefer to wear trainers, in fact I keep my shoes at work and travel to/from work in trainers and then change into my shoes there. That's how much I hate wearing them. Could I go to the papers and claim that my employers are restricting my freedom of footwear choice??

It's not a strict requirement exactly, but it does have a long history in Islam as being an additional act of virtue. I think I'm right in saying that Mohammed's wives all wore the veil, so a lot of women do wear it to feel they are closer to God

[Me. I Am Salman]

I agree. I don't want to spout the "go back to your on country" nonsense but I mean lets be honest here, if any of us went to a strict Muslim country we would be expected to live by their rules and punished for breaking them, I don't see why it doesn't work the other way round as well.

I never understand this argument. These countries are known to be backwards so why would you want to be like them? And I'm pretty sure this girl is British, what do those countries even have to do with her? The only justified argument for banning it is security reasons, which I agree with.

[Me. I Am Salman]

If a man wanted to attend the college and wear a balaclava all day I'm sure there would be objections on security grounds, so why not with a face-veil?

This baclava crap confuses me too. You can't compare them because 99% of the time baclavas are worn for wrong reasons and 99% of the time a face-veil is not

Edit: balaclava* I can't believe I called it a baclava omg

[Niamh.]

I never understand this argument. These countries are known to be backwards so why would you want to be like them? And I'm pretty sure this girl is British, what do those countries even have to do with her? The only justified argument for banning it is security reasons, which I agree with.

And covering yourself from head to toe is also backwards and also a very sexist tradition imo

[Me. I Am Salman]

And covering yourself from head to toe is also backwards and also a very sexist tradition imo

wtf why can't people accept not everyone feels wearing less clothes is liberating, plus as stated before it's their goddamn choice

also you ignored the rest of my post thanks for that

[Niamh.]

wtf why can't people accept not everyone feels wearing less clothes is liberating, plus as stated before it's their goddamn choice

also you ignored the rest of my post thanks for that

No worries :hugesmile:

[Me. I Am Salman]

omg it ****in pisses me off so much how ignorant people are. it may be funny for you but it's seriously seriously aggravating that people are so judgemental going by what they see in the news. Islam has disadvantages for men too you know, and in many aspects empowers women

-In Islam, women are not required to go to mosque - they have the freedom to pray at home, unlike men who are obliged to go 5 times a day and believe me, prayers at mosques are far longer and it's tough. It's especially difficult for men in Ramadan because they're required to pray late at night after an entire day of fasting for two hours in hot cramped conditions, whereas women's prayer is much shorter and from the comfort of their home & with more flexible times.
-Pregnant women do not need to fast during Ramadan
-Islam hails mothers. they're given more value than fathers and Heaven is said to lie at their feet
-The burqa is not compulsory. Women who therefore wear it are clearly choosing to cover themselves. Banning it an infringement of women's rights and goes completely against what it claims to do
-Judging a woman who does not wear a headscarf is regarded a huge sin
-Islam teaches individuals to lower their gaze and not view people as sexual objects which empowers both sexes
-pretty sure the majority of Muslim woman will tell you they don't feel oppressed so how the **** can you speak for them

[Withano]

how the **** can you speak for them

I agree. I wasn't expecting to read a thread of people agreeing with the college when I read the title, it saddens me that the majority of the people here so far have done so.

[Niall]

This baclava crap confuses me too. You can't compare them because 99% of the time baclavas are worn for wrong reasons and 99% of the time a face-veil is not

The reasons don't even come into it though? The physical problem of the face veil is that it obscures identity and creates security issues. A balaclava (which creates just the same problem) would not be tolerated, so why make an exception for an item of clothing which is - as you've pointed out - optional for these women?

[Kizzy]

And covering yourself from head to toe is also backwards and also a very sexist tradition imo

Nuns do :laugh:

[DanaC]

I agree. I wasn't expecting to read a thread of people agreeing with the college when I read the title, it saddens me that the majority of the people here so far have done so.

Yup.

[Jesus.]

omg it ****in pisses me off so much how ignorant people are. it may be funny for you but it's seriously seriously aggravating that people are so judgemental going by what they see in the news. Islam has disadvantages for men too you know, and in many aspects empowers women

-In Islam, women are not required to go to mosque - they have the freedom to pray at home, unlike men who are obliged to go 5 times a day and believe me, prayers at mosques are far longer and it's tough. It's especially difficult for men in Ramadan because they're required to pray late at night after an entire day of fasting for two hours in hot cramped conditions, whereas women's prayer is much shorter and from the comfort of their home & with more flexible times.
-Pregnant women do not need to fast during Ramadan
-Islam hails mothers. they're given more value than fathers and Heaven is said to lie at their feet
-The burqa is not compulsory. Women who therefore wear it are clearly choosing to cover themselves. Banning it an infringement of women's rights and goes completely against what it claims to do
-Judging a woman who does not wear a headscarf is regarded a huge sin
-Islam teaches individuals to lower their gaze and not view people as sexual objects which empowers both sexes
-pretty sure the majority of Muslim woman will tell you they don't feel oppressed so how the **** can you speak for them

I agree that they should be allowed to wear what they want, and as long as it is solely their choice, and not compulsory (like some countries), then it really isn't anyone's business what an individual chooses to wear.

However, lets not pretend that Islam is great to/for women. Islam had a decent approach to womens rights considering the time period, but that's it. The age that Mohammed married and had sex with Aisha at, continues to this day to contribute to child abuse.

I do agree with your argument, but having women at home preparing the feasts, whilst being praised by Mohammed for praying privately in their quarters is no doubt just a happy accident.

[Me. I Am Salman]

I agree that they should be allowed to wear what they want, and as long as it is solely their choice, and not compulsory (like some countries), then it really isn't anyone's business what an individual chooses to wear.

However, lets not pretend that Islam is great to/for women. Islam had a decent approach to womens rights considering the time period, but that's it. The age that Mohammed married and had sex with Aisha at, continues to this day to contribute to child abuse.

I do agree with your argument, but having women at home preparing the feasts, whilst being praised by Mohammed for praying privately in their quarters is no doubt just a happy accident.

well every society used to be like that, with their treatment of women and children being married (iirc there was a European king who married a girl under 10) so it's not exclusive to Islamic societies and that isn't what Islam is about. The marriage between Aisha and the Prophet SAW was only consummated when Aisha was deemed to be sexually mature and research by Islamic scholars suggest that she was actually 19 when they consummated, but whatever it was it's irrelevant to Islamic teachings and only happened because society was less developed

[Jesus.]

well every society used to be like that, with their treatment of women and children being married (iirc there was a European king who married a girl under 10) so it's not exclusive to Islamic societies and that isn't what Islam is about. The marriage between Aisha and the Prophet SAW was only consummated when Aisha was deemed to be sexually mature and research by Islamic scholars suggest that she was actually 19 when they consummated, but whatever it was it's irrelevant to Islamic teachings and only happened because society was less developed

I completely agree. Other societies did used to be like that. However, humanity progressed and challenged Christianity and Monarchies. Islam is still a relatively young religion, which hasn't reached that level yet.

Which sort of shows to me that it's humanity that progresses and changes, by challenging the dogmas we've been fed, and not the dogmas that help us progress by following them.

I am completely on your side though when it comes to this issue though.

[DanaC]

It's a pretty typical thing really. Like the West promoting democracy in some dictatorship and then getting bent out of shape when they democratically elect someone we don't approve of and who seems to us to be the antithesis of democracy.

We promote greater choice, equality and autonomy for women whose native (or ancestral) culture seems designed to remove it and then get bent out of shape when some of them choose to embrace the culture we disapprove of and which seems the antithesis of choice, equality and autonomy.

[Johnnyuk123]

If this college rule gets overturned then what next? Naturist turning up starkers? Co's if they did the whole country would kick off about that but naturists too should also be allowed to express the exact same freedom as this girl is demaning by dressing or undressing how they see fit in public just like this muslim girl has, which after all is exactly the same kind of freedom that people want.

[Jesus.]

If this college rule gets overturned then what next? Naturist turning up starkers? Co's if they did the whole country would kick off about that but naturists too should also be allowed to express the exact same freedom as this girl is demaning by dressing or undressing how they see fit in public just like this muslim girl has, which after all is exactly the same kind of freedom that people want.

Well naturalists would have to travel to school to begin with, and they are probably breaking laws of public decency if they traveled naked on buses.

[user104658]

Well naturalists would have to travel to school to begin with, and they are probably breaking laws of public decency if they traveled naked on buses.

And if the naturists start claiming that it's a religion; that they believe covering up and part of their body (God's creation?) is an insult to Him and His work? What then? Surely, by the same rules of religious freedom that apply to the veil, it would have to be legalized... and accepted in establishments such as colleges.

You can't start picking and choosing, deeming one religion more legitimate than another... the rules have to be the same across the board. So, either it's OK for a college to disallow the veil, OR all religious freedoms are valid, and so they'd have to allow these new Naturochristians (that I have just invented AND named, awesome) to exercise their right to religious freedom by attending college buck naked.

[lostalex]

There should be one rule for everyone, no exceptions. This school is a secular environment, if you are THAT religious then you should be in a religious school that has different rules that can accomodate your religious needs.

[Jesus.]

And if the naturists start claiming that it's a religion; that they believe covering up and part of their body (God's creation?) is an insult to Him and His work? What then? Surely, by the same rules of religious freedom that apply to the veil, it would have to be legalized... and accepted in establishments such as colleges.

You can't start picking and choosing, deeming one religion more legitimate than another... the rules have to be the same across the board. So, either it's OK for a college to disallow the veil, OR all religious freedoms are valid, and so they'd have to allow these new Naturochristians (that I have just invented AND named, awesome) to exercise their right to religious freedom by attending college buck naked.

You really don't understand the difference? Firstly, naturalists have been partaking in the removal of clothes for milennia, and not once have they even tried to claim it as religion. Naturalists seem fairly comfortable with themselves, and I really couldn't see a load of irate naked people suddenly deciding that they want to be able to be naked in the streets and in schools.

Finally, you can't just claim yourself a religion and have access to religious freedoms. There are conditions that need to be met in order to receive religious benefits. There is a name for a group of people that get together and claim they are a religion, and that is cult.

I am an anti-theist, I neither believe in, nor want any religion, but I'm arguing to allow religious freedom, I'm arguing to allow complete civil liberties, and if religious dress crosses over, then they have the right to wear what they want, be it a veil, or a beard.

[lostalex]

what about rastafarians? i know here in America rastafarians in prison have tried to be allowed to smoke pot as part of their religion. Also there are some South American religions that use hallucinogenic drugs in their rituals. How far does religious freedom extend?

[Jesus.]

what about rastafarians? i know here in America rastafarians in prison have tried to be allowed to smoke pot as part of their religion. Also there are some South American religions that use hallucinogenic drugs in their rituals. How far does religious freedom extend?

I'm a social libertarian, so I believe they should be allowed to smoke what they want, regardless of any religious issues/freedoms.

I'm less interested in religious freedom, than personal freedom, and I know that's odd living in the CCTV nation.

[user104658]

Finally, you can't just claim yourself a religion and have access to religious freedoms. There are conditions that need to be met in order to receive religious benefits. There is a name for a group of people that get together and claim they are a religion, and that is cult.

We fundamentally disagree here again; I'd be more inclined to say "there's a name for a cult with more than a few thousand members. It's called a religion.". I personally find it ridiculous that one load of fairytales and nonsense can be considered "more legitimate" than another, purely on the grounds that more people happen to believe it.

I'm not necessarily saying that people would be lying about their beliefs in order to manipulate freedoms. I'm saying that, feasibly, there hypothetically COULD be a group of people who believe that hiding the naked body, supposedly the pinnacle of God's "work", could be considered blasphemy. It's a perfectly justifiable religious logic, much moreso than covering it, debatably. And if that group did exist, and was to be considered a "real" religion, would it not then follow that those people could claim the right to be naked wherever they want to be naked, on religious grounds?

[lostalex]

I'm a social libertarian, so I believe they should be allowed to smoke what they want, regardless of any religious issues/freedoms.

I'm less interested in religious freedom, than personal freedom, and I know that's odd living in the CCTV nation.

but you can understand how having hundreds of violent prisoners tripped out on hallucinogens might be difficult to manage? i'm just saying, there has to be SOME restrictions on religious(and personal) freedom. just out of pure practicality.

That being said, I agree that how someone wears a head scarf or their facial hair is completely a non-issue when you are talking about school kids. I think even school uniforms are ridiculous.

[Jesus.]

We fundamentally disagree here again; I'd be more inclined to say "there's a name for a cult with more than a few thousand members. It's called a religion.". I personally find it ridiculous that one load of fairytales and nonsense can be considered "more legitimate" than another, purely on the grounds that more people happen to believe it.

I'm not necessarily saying that people would be lying about their beliefs in order to manipulate freedoms. I'm saying that, feasibly, there hypothetically COULD be a group of people who believe that hiding the naked body, supposedly the pinnacle of God's "work", could be considered blasphemy. It's a perfectly justifiable religious logic, much moreso than covering it, debatably. And if that group did exist, and was to be considered a "real" religion, would it not then follow that those people could claim the right to be naked wherever they want to be naked, on religious grounds?

I think we sort of agree, it's just a bit clouded. All religions are cults is something that we can definitely agree on. I also agree that one set of fairy tales shouldn't be given more credence than another, but it just is, and it's purely a function of historical time. The Abrahamic religions have ruled the world for centuries, so they permeated the psyche. It's only the last couple of hundred years that secularism has got any kind of foothold, and it's a long path ahead that science and rationalism will continue to erode long after the time that you and I exist.

Apart from that, your example is hyperbole, and not very realistic. Where is this religion coming from? Is it a sect of a an existing religion? The bible says you should kill cheeky children, or not eat shellfish, murder your brother for cleaning his car on a Sunday. Would I argue that a member of a religion should be allowed to stone his cheating wife to death? No, of course not.

However, wearing a veil, or growing a beard isn't hurting anyone, and if we're not confident/secure enough as a people to tolerate difference, then that says far more about us, than it does about a young woman who wishes to hide her head under a veil, away from her imaginary friend.

[Jesus.]

but you can understand how having hundreds of violent prisoners tripped out on hallucinogens might be difficult to manage? i'm just saying, there has to be SOME restrictions on religious(and personal) freedom. just out of pure practicality.

That being said, I agree that how someone wears a head scarf or their facial hair is completely a non-issue when you are talking about school kids. I think even school uniforms are ridiculous.

Isn't the whole point of prison to remove people from society, thus restricting freedom?

[lostalex]

Isn't the whole point of prison to remove people from society, thus restricting freedom?

well exactly, but technically the prison is also their home. and they do deserve some individual rights in their own home, even in prison. So it's a balance. Same for schools on a much less intense scale, schools are also institutions where there needs to be a certain level of control. It's a large group of people being governed by a small number of people. Anytime there are large groups of epople there are certain rules you need just to keep the peace, in a large group you are no longer just an individual, you are also part of the group. being part of a large group, you have to accept that you are not just an individual any more.

Anyways, i'm rambling now. My main point is there should be one rule for all. If these to girls are allowed to cover their faces, everyone should be allowed to, wear masks, or sun glasses or whatever they want, my only real point is there should be 1 rule for everyone, and religious people should not get special exceptions.

[Jesus.]

well exactly, but technically the prison is also their home. and they do deserve some individual rights in their own home, even in prison. So it's a balance. Same for schools on a much less intense scale, schools are also institutions where there needs to be a certain level of control. It's a large group of people being governed by a small number of people. Anytime there are large groups of people there are certain rules you need just to keep the peace, in a large group you are no longer just an individual, you are also part of the group. being part of a large group, you have to accept that you are not just an individual any more.

They have some individual rights, and they shouldn't be refused religious texts, or the opportunity to pray, but the government should have no compunction to provide substances that are still classed as illegal, however much I disagree with the fact that they are illegal.

School should only ever be about learning, and people are individuals. Individuals learn in different ways and react better/worse to different approaches. I don't agree with a one size fits all approach to education.