Barman refuses to serve alcohol to a pregnant woman...

[Ammi]

A mother-to-be has said she was left 'humiliated' after she was refused a small glass of wine because she is heavily pregnant.

Jane Hampson, 37, said she would usually enjoy one 125ml glass of red wine a week with a meal after reading research which suggested it was medically acceptable.

But the Deutsche Bank worker, who is overdue with her first baby, was left dumbfounded after a barman at Pi bar, in Liverpool, told her: 'Sorry, I can't serve you.'

When she asked him why, the bartender said: 'I refuse to have serving alcohol to pregnant women on my conscience.'

The exchange attracted the attention of other customers at the busy bar as Miss Hampson and her partner Alistair Townend, 37, asked for an explanation.

Miss Hampson said they eventually left the bar out of embarrassment and bought a glass of red wine elsewhere.

The NHS currently advises pregnant women should drink no more than one to two units of alcohol once or twice a week - the equivalent of a 125ml glass of wine.

As bar bosses today apologised for the snub, Miss Hampson, from Mossley Hill, Liverpool, said: 'I couldn’t believe it - it was so humiliating.

'There is no way I would endanger my unborn baby yet it was being insinuated that I was doing just that and being irresponsible.

'At the time the bar was packed and all the customers were looking over at us to see what all the commotion was about. We felt we had no choice but to leave because it was so embarrassing

'The fact I am pregnant was none of his business. I appreciate a bar’s management reserve the right not to serve customers but obviously I wasn’t drunk or misbehaving or under 18 - so he had no reason not to serve me.

'I am not some Vicky Pollard-type binge drinker. I have done extensive research on the effects of drinking alcohol when pregnant and the fact is there’s nothing wrong with having a small glass of wine every week.

'I have enjoyed a small glass of red wine with a meal once a week throughout my pregnancy but it’s not been every week

'I would describe myself as health-conscious. I have run two marathons in the past and I am not into filling my body with anything that shouldn’t be there.

'When you look at how much of an issue excess alcohol causes in this country, I really don’t feel that any establishment that chooses to profit from alcohol sales is in any position to judge anyone.'

The incident occurred after Miss Hampson decided to take a long walk with Mr Townend around Liverpool’s Sefton Park on Tuesday night. After their stroll the couple, who have been together for 10 months, headed to nearby Pi bar

Miss Hampson, who works as an intermediary business manager for Deutsche Bank and also runs her own website selling eco-friendly soaps and cosmetics, said: 'I asked the barman for a small glass of red wine and as soon as I said it I could see him pursing his lips as if taking a sharp intake of breath.

'I went to the toilet leaving Alistair at the bar and when I came back the barman came up to me and said he wouldn’t serve me because he couldn’t have serving a pregnant woman alcohol on his conscience. It was outrageous and embarrassing.

'We asked why but he wouldn’t budge. We went to another bar nearby and I drank a glass of wine there instead.'

She added: 'Throughout my pregnancy I have taken good care of myself and made the best choices for my baby. I eat five portions of fruit and vegetables a day and make a fresh carrot, ginger and apple juice every morning.

'I don’t even use normal deodorant because I am concerned about using environmentally friendly and ethical products.

'I have read numerous articles about the effects of drinking alcohol when pregnant and I believe one small glass of wine once a week is not harmful to me or my baby.

'I had no alcohol during first 12 weeks of pregnancy apart from one glass of bubbly and one wine in that 12 week period and then, at most one glass a week, but not every week.

'It was usually with a nice meal out or on the odd occasion, like that Tuesday just after as long-a-walk as I could manage. The barman who refused to serve me was only in his 20s. It’s not up to him to decide what I should and shouldn’t be putting in my body

'I felt like asking whether he refuses to serve fat people pies, or whether the bar checks how much caffeine a woman has consumed that day before they serve her a cup of coffee.

'There is recent research that suggests baldness is linked to alcohol consumption, are they going to start measuring people’s hairlines before they serve them a pint?'

Ben Reynolds, area manager of Pi Bar, described the incident as an 'unfortunate misunderstanding'.

He said: 'I would first and foremost like to apologise to Ms Hampson for any upset or embarrassment caused.

'I can fully understand her grievances and can completely understand why she felt upset.

'I would like to state that we have no company policy on the serving or not serving of alcohol to pregnant people. Why would we? It’s none of our business.

'What occurred was simply the result of a junior member of staff making a mistake and getting his wires crossed.

'He is deeply sorry for upsetting Ms Hampson and assures me that he was not, as I fear she believes, making a judgment on her, but rather thought for some reason, despite his training, that licensing laws forbade the serving of alcohol to pregnant people.

'However I can understand, given the unfortunate way he appears to have said it, why Ms Hampson felt he was insinuating otherwise. I would very much like to get in contact with Ms Hampson to apologise directly.'

[Ninastar]

i don't blame him tbh

[Tom4784]

He did nothing wrong, she sounds like an overacting silly bint.

[user104658]

I wouldnt have served her either. What she does herself is none of my business but that doesn't mean I have to be a part of it... Bars almost always reserve the right to refuse service at the staffs discretion so she should just lump it.

"no evidence" that it harms? so?? Is that a good enough reason to do it? what is it with people and alcohol, that they feel the need to have a sneaky half glass no matter what? how about just... Wait? Just incase? surely it's a completely irrelevant optional indulgence, or it bloody should be.

[Samm]

good for him

[MTVN]

Not his place to refuse her service when he knows none of the details, would be a different story if she was off her face drunk but she was only having a small glass with a meal, won't do any harm

[Niamh.]

Not his place to refuse her service when he knows none of the details, would be a different story if she was off her face drunk but she was only having a small glass with a meal, won't do any harm

Exactly.

[GypsyGoth]

I think he owes that unborn baby a drink!

[Ninastar]

you tell em' GG

[GypsyGoth]

:laugh:

[AnnieK]

As someone said it's the bars discretion. I don't personally agree with it I don't think one glass would do any harm. A shop refuses to sell me castor oil when I was pregnant but the same shop sold me 20 fags (for a friend).

[james130]

I work at a bar and think I may have done the same. :idc:

[smudgie]

One step nearer a nanny state.

If she had asked for a bottle of wine to herself then maybe he could have asked if it was wise.

[Z]

I agree with the barman, it's general knowledge that pregnant women shouldn't be smoking or drinking. Only a pregnant woman is going to know that it's okay to have a small glass of wine every now and then (I didn't know that until I read this) and seeing as she's nine months pregnant it's not like the barman could ignore the fact she was pregnant. I would have done the exact same thing - I wouldn't want to be knowingly giving alcohol to a pregnant woman - how am I supposed to know this is her one and only drink of the week and that it's not damaging to an unborn child? I've heard of foetal alcohol syndrome, I haven't heard her wisdom that it's fine for a baby every now and then...

Basically think she's being massively hysterical over something that she must know that most people have been taught that smoking and drinking are bad for unborn children. Have your glass of wine at home. You're nearly about to give birth, I'm sure you can go another week or two without having wine in a bar/restaurant.

[AnnieK]

I agree with the barman, it's general knowledge that pregnant women shouldn't be smoking or drinking. Only a pregnant woman is going to know that it's okay to have a small glass of wine every now and then (I didn't know that until I read this) and seeing as she's nine months pregnant it's not like the barman could ignore the fact she was pregnant. I would have done the exact same thing - I wouldn't want to be knowingly giving alcohol to a pregnant woman - how am I supposed to know this is her one and only drink of the week and that it's not damaging to an unborn child? I've heard of foetal alcohol syndrome, I haven't heard her wisdom that it's fine for a baby every now and then...

Basically think she's being massively hysterical over something that she must know that most people have been taught that smoking and drinking are bad for unborn children. Have your glass of wine at home. You're nearly about to give birth, I'm sure you can go another week or two without having wine in a bar/restaurant.

I do get what you're saying Zee but why is that his call to make? It is neither illegal or actually dangerous. I didn't drink whilst pregnant but that was my decision. Pregnancy should not allow others to judge you.

[Tom4784]

It's the barman's right to deny service, he had no way of knowing her drinking habits beforehand so he opted to make a decision. This story is pretty much open and shut as far as things go.

[MTVN]

I agree with the barman, it's general knowledge that pregnant women shouldn't be smoking or drinking. Only a pregnant woman is going to know that it's okay to have a small glass of wine every now and then (I didn't know that until I read this) and seeing as she's nine months pregnant it's not like the barman could ignore the fact she was pregnant. I would have done the exact same thing - I wouldn't want to be knowingly giving alcohol to a pregnant woman - how am I supposed to know this is her one and only drink of the week and that it's not damaging to an unborn child? I've heard of foetal alcohol syndrome, I haven't heard her wisdom that it's fine for a baby every now and then...

Basically think she's being massively hysterical over something that she must know that most people have been taught that smoking and drinking are bad for unborn children. Have your glass of wine at home. You're nearly about to give birth, I'm sure you can go another week or two without having wine in a bar/restaurant.

I would say that when you've gone out for a meal that's the logical time to have your weekly glass of wine though

[Z]

I do get what you're saying Zee but why is that his call to make? It is neither illegal or actually dangerous. I didn't drink whilst pregnant but that was my decision. Pregnancy should not allow others to judge you.

Well, it's his call to make in the same way that it's his call to make if someone's had too many for their own well being - the circumstances are different but the reasoning is the same. He said he didn't want that on his conscience. I'm sure he'd rather know that he pissed off a pregnant woman than potentially caused damage to an unborn foetus. Like most others (especially men) I'm sure he thought that it was considered a no-no for women to drink when they're pregnant; I know that's what I would have done.

[user104658]

One step nearer a nanny state.

If she had asked for a bottle of wine to herself then maybe he could have asked if it was wise.

A bar is a private establishment and his refusal to serve her has absolutely nothing to do with a "nanny state", or the "state" at all. He was not legally obliged to refuse to serve her, he CHOSE to do so, and it is perfectly within his individual rights to do that.

My thoughts on it are - if a pregnant mother wants to risk her child's health (no matter how slight the risk) then that's her business... but that absolutely does not mean that I should feel obliged to help her do so.

"No evidence that it does any harm" is not the same as "it definitely does no harm". There's also very little evidence that it doesn't do any harm. Such things are almost impossible to measure with any degree of accuracy. I personally wouldn't take the risk (if I could get pregnant) and don't particularly understand anyone who would... there are necessary risks in life and then there are things like this. No one should "need" to drink, and if they do, they have much bigger problems to address. If it's just a case of her [i]fancying[/i[ a little wine to the potential detriment of her unborn child, then that's just straight up selfish parenting. Before the poor sap has even been popped out. What else is new :rolleyes:.

[Scarlett.]

I think they guy was right in what he was doing, if he served her alcohol, he could have opened himself up to blame ect.

[user104658]

I would say that when you've gone out for a meal that's the logical time to have your weekly glass of wine though

Yes, god forbid the poor woman should have to go without her weekly glass of wine for the aeons of her pregnancy.

I swear the world is actually mental.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Completely agree with him - good for him & welldone!!!

[Z]

I would say that when you've gone out for a meal that's the logical time to have your weekly glass of wine though

That's from her point of view - the barman sees a heavily pregnant woman asking for a glass of wine and immediately has alarm bells ringing. Bar staff hear all sorts of excuses for why a person "is fine to be drinking" and if they've decided they're not going to serve someone, that is up to them. I think perhaps she only feels humiliated because she has something to be ashamed of - that she can't abstain from alcohol; and not because she was "humiliated" by being refused.

[Ninastar]

Agree with zee. If something were to happen to the baby (even non alcohol related, possibly...) he could feel extremely guilty and blame himself

[Smithy]

I thought the title said batman and i got really confused

[Ammi]

I thought the title said batman and i got really confused

..Haahhhhhhhhh, I did exactly the same when I first saw the story....

[Shaun]

*also read Batman :laugh:*

Agree with zee. If something were to happen to the baby (even non alcohol related, possibly...) he could feel extremely guilty and blame himself

If he were the father I'd agree, but he's nothing to do with the customer and shouldn't be restricting service because he thinks it's best. Just doesn't make sense to me. Patronising busy-bodiness.

[GypsyGoth]

I think he's providing a substance that can cause damage.

And it seems like he erred on the side of caution.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Exactly, I don't like this 'Why should you give a ****, you're not related/know them', He doesn't want to be in anyway responsible for giving a pregnant lady alcohol which is not 'safe'.

[joeysteele]

We hear a fair bit as to possibly irresponsible bar staff who serve alcohol to people they maybe shouldn't.
I think he showed some initiative in refusing to serve her it because she was pregnant.

I do think though, she is entitled to make the choice to drink while pregnant even though medically she would be likely be advised not to.
I think on balance, I lean slightly more towards his corner than hers though

[Ammi]

..I do think it's a bit of a difficult one this because he doesn't have the right to judge her, but he does have the right to refuse anyone that he doesn't feel comfortable serving for whatever reason...

[Ninastar]

If he were the father I'd agree, but he's nothing to do with the customer and shouldn't be restricting service because he thinks it's best. Just doesn't make sense to me. Patronising busy-bodiness.

I can see why you'd think that, but I still think it was right of him to do so. I personally think it's wrong to drink that far along into the pregnancy.

This may be sexist of me, but I imagine women to be a lot more informed about drinking while pregnant then men. Most people know it's best to avoid drink all together. But if you look it up, (as I have just done) it states "we recommend they should not drink more than 1-2 units once or twice a week and should not get drunk".

How is he to know that she hasn't been drinking every night that week? Fair enough if she wants to do damage to her own body, I'm sure he'd let her get away with that, but he was looking out for an unborn child. And personally, I think he's perfectly okay to do so. Judgemental and patronising he may be, but at least he can rest and know he didn't do anything himself to cause damage to a life that doesn't really have an option....

[MTVN]

That's from her point of view - the barman sees a heavily pregnant woman asking for a glass of wine and immediately has alarm bells ringing. Bar staff hear all sorts of excuses for why a person "is fine to be drinking" and if they've decided they're not going to serve someone, that is up to them. I think perhaps she only feels humiliated because she has something to be ashamed of - that she can't abstain from alcohol; and not because she was "humiliated" by being refused.

Don't really think having a small glass of wine when out is proof of being unable to abstain from alcohol, it's just very much a part of being out for a meal. If he really had concerns he could have at least asked her politely if she was ok to be drinking at which point she could explain that's it's considered fine to have one small glass a week, she is going to have more knowledge and awareness than him of the subject after all

[Z]

Don't really think having a small glass of wine when out is proof of being unable to abstain from alcohol, it's just very much a part of being out for a meal. If he really had concerns he could have at least asked her politely if she was ok to be drinking at which point she could explain that's it's considered fine to have one small glass a week, she is going to have more knowledge and awareness than him of the subject after all

Yeah but he's a barman, he has no way of knowing if this is her only drink of the day/week/last 9 months. For all he knows this is a woman who spends all day every day drinking despite being pregnant and evidently he didn't want to be involved in any potential problems. Why would he ask her? As Caitlin said, and I have been saying, most people, especially men, aren't really clued up about pregnancy because it's not something we go through personally.

If he refused service to someone who was blind drunk and they felt "humiliated" about being denied service, people wouldn't be against the barman; but because it's a pregnant woman people are getting all uppity about it... personally I think that you shouldn't be putting anything into your body that will intoxicate you if you're carrying a baby. The barman clearly feels the same way. The pregnant woman knows more than either of us and she feels differently - and that's fine, if she wants to have her glass of wine a week in the comfort of her own home then that's fine, but having it with dinner in a restaurant is naturally going to raise eyebrows not just from the bar staff but from people in the restaurant too.

[Benjamin]

Not his place to refuse her service when he knows none of the details, would be a different story if she was off her face drunk but she was only having a small glass with a meal, won't do any harm

Actually it is. If something happened to her or the baby on premises because she was drunk he would be held liable for serving her.

[Ninastar]

If you go on the nhs website where I got my quote from, it pretty much says to avoid drink all together... I know the odd glass does the baby no harm, but still I wouldn't serve a 9 month pregnant woman some wine either.

[Glenn.]

I thought the title said batman and i got really confused

..Haahhhhhhhhh, I did exactly the same when I first saw the story....

*also read Batman :laugh:*

Same :joker:

Good on him I say.

[Kyle]

If you go on the nhs website where I got my quote from, it pretty much says to avoid drink all together... I know the odd glass does the baby no harm, but still I wouldn't serve a 9 month pregnant woman some wine either.

I'm not a woman but that's pretty much how I see it. 1 unit, 2 unit nah just stop altogether for 9 months I'm sure you'll need all the drink in the world once you've popped the little blighter out but for the duration of the pregnancy why not just cut it out altogether?

[MTVN]

Yeah but he's a barman, he has no way of knowing if this is her only drink of the day/week/last 9 months. For all he knows this is a woman who spends all day every day drinking despite being pregnant and evidently he didn't want to be involved in any potential problems. Why would he ask her? As Caitlin said, and I have been saying, most people, especially men, aren't really clued up about pregnancy because it's not something we go through personally.

If he refused service to someone who was blind drunk and they felt "humiliated" about being denied service, people wouldn't be against the barman; but because it's a pregnant woman people are getting all uppity about it... personally I think that you shouldn't be putting anything into your body that will intoxicate you if you're carrying a baby. The barman clearly feels the same way. The pregnant woman knows more than either of us and she feels differently - and that's fine, if she wants to have her glass of wine a week in the comfort of her own home then that's fine, but having it with dinner in a restaurant is naturally going to raise eyebrows not just from the bar staff but from people in the restaurant too.

But those would all be completely baseless presumptions, I mean should barmen always assume that unless it's proven otherwise everyone they're dealing with is spending "all day every day drinking"? He would ask her because that's the reasonable thing to do instead of making incorrect judgements, surely the fact that he would know less about pregnancy is even more reason for him not to make this call (though I kinda thought it was fairly common knowledge that pregnant women can drink - and smoke - in very small doses)

Actually it is. If something happened to her or the baby on premises because she was drunk he would be held liable for serving her.

Ah come on, it's a massive leap to go from allowing one small glass of wine with a meal to being criminally liable for alcohol-related problems existing in the new born baby from drunkenness.

[Kizzy]

Well I've heard it all now.... some div in a bar decides it's morally reprehensible to serve 125ml of wine to a pregnant woman :joker:
Lordy....

[MeMyselfAndI]

Whatever, he was really sensible, careful and took no risks, which is a very smart thing to do with a woman who is 9 months pregnant, why take a risk? I certainly wouldn't describe him as a 'div'

[Benjamin]

Ah come on, it's a massive leap to go from allowing one small glass of wine with a meal to being criminally liable for alcohol-related problems existing in the new born baby from drunkenness.

Matt, we live in a day and age where a lot of people if they can find a fault with someone else's actions and claim from it they will. I fully back this man's decision, I have and will continue to do the same because I don't want any repercussions coming my way.

If she is so desperate for a glass of wine then go have one at home.

[Benjamin]

Well I've heard it all now.... some div in a bar decides it's morally reprehensible to serve 125ml of wine to a pregnant woman :joker:
Lordy....

Yeah, I wouldn't describe him as a div, he is covering his back.

[Kizzy]

I would, or a fool...
He had no idea what effects 125ml of alcohol would have on a child in the third trimester, absolutely pathetic.

[MTVN]

Matt, we live in a day and age where a lot of people if they can find a fault with someone else's actions and claim from it they will. I fully back this man's decision, I have and will continue to do the same because I don't want any repercussions coming my way.

If she is so desperate for a glass of wine then go have one at home.

Well from the sounds of it the guy has been given a 'talking to' and the bar has had to apologise so it was really the decision not to serve her which has actually got them into trouble

[Benjamin]

I would, or a fool...
He had no idea what effects 125ml of alcohol would have on a child in the third trimester, absolutely pathetic.

What I find pathetic is her attempt at making a big deal out of it. If she is so desperate for a wine then have one at home. It may be her right to drink if she wants but it is also his right to be responsible and keep himself out of trouble in a job that keeps a roof over his head. like I said, we no longer live in a 'care-free' day and age, we live in a world where one mistake and you will be sued.

[Benjamin]

Well from the sounds of it the guy has been given a 'talking to' and the bar has had to apologise so it was really the decision not to serve her which has actually got them into trouble

Probably because this silly woman has made a big deal out of it and the company are forced to so as not to be given bad press no doubt.

[MeMyselfAndI]

I would, or a fool...
He had no idea what effects 125ml of alcohol would have on a child in the third trimester, absolutely pathetic.

Not an effect of the child directly, but the alcohol could have had an effect on the woman carrying the child, hence putting the child in danger. Who knows whether she's had more to drink? He is being careful as I said, a very smart man with initiative, he deserves a lot of praise.

[MTVN]

Probably because this silly woman has made a big deal out of it and the company are forced to so as not to be given bad press no doubt.

Would say it was more because he went against company policy and was the one to make a big deal out of in the first place by not just serving her a small glass of wine

[MeMyselfAndI]

There probably are terms and conditions with dealing with pregnant women

[MTVN]

Not according to what the bar manager said:

Ben Reynolds, area manager of Pi Bar, described the incident as an 'unfortunate misunderstanding'.

He said: 'I would first and foremost like to apologise to Ms Hampson for any upset or embarrassment caused.

'I can fully understand her grievances and can completely understand why she felt upset.

'I would like to state that we have no company policy on the serving or not serving of alcohol to pregnant people. Why would we? It’s none of our business.

'What occurred was simply the result of a junior member of staff making a mistake and getting his wires crossed.

'He is deeply sorry for upsetting Ms Hampson and assures me that he was not, as I fear she believes, making a judgment on her, but rather thought for some reason, despite his training, that licensing laws forbade the serving of alcohol to pregnant people.

'However I can understand, given the unfortunate way he appears to have said it, why Ms Hampson felt he was insinuating otherwise. I would very much like to get in contact with Ms Hampson to apologise directly.'

[Benjamin]

Would say it was more because he went against company policy and was the one to make a big deal out of in the first place by not just serving her a small glass of wine

Reading some of the articles he didn't make a big deal, she did. Lol.

In the slim chance something happened to her or her baby because of that drink then he could be held liable.

[Benjamin]

Not according to what the bar manager said:

I think this bar manager is going to get worse backlash for not sticking up for his staff member. I'm already seeing many comments about him.

[Kizzy]

It was rude, unnecessary and ill informed...
There are far too many 'know alls' around that feel they have a right to preach to others without being aware of the facts.
I for one can understand her feelings at the implication she was acting irresponsibly.

[Benjamin]

It was rude, unnecessary and ill informed...
There are far too many 'know alls' around that feel they have a right to preach to others without being aware of the facts.
I for one can understand her feelings at the implication she was acting irresponsibly.

He wasn't preaching nor claiming to know everything about pregnancy, so wrong use of words there. Nor was he rude about it, maybe ill-informed, but he was not rude.

[Benjamin]

It was rude, unnecessary and ill informed...
There are far too many 'know alls' around that feel they have a right to preach to others without being aware of the facts.
I for one can understand her feelings at the implication she was acting irresponsibly.

He wasn't preaching nor claiming to know everything about pregnancy, so wrong use of words there. Nor was he rude about it, maybe ill-informed, but he was not rude.

[Kizzy]

He wasn't preaching nor claiming to know everything about pregnancy, so wrong use of words there. Nor was he rude about it, maybe ill-informed, but he was not rude.
He claimed it was bar policy, it wasn't.
His insinuation was rude that she was acting in a way that was detrimental to her child.
Overall he was ill informed and made a customer feel embarrassed and humiliated due to his skewed personal opinion.
She was right to challenge him.

[Benjamin]

He claimed it was bar policy, it wasn't.
His insinuation was rude that she was acting in a way that was detrimental to her child.
Overall he was ill informed and made a customer feel embarrassed and humiliated due to his skewed personal opinion.
She was right to challenge him.

Like I said, maybe he was ill-informed (that comes down to the management not him by the way) but calling him a div and a fool, give over, he was being sensible regarding pregnancy and drinking. I also honestly cannot take you seriously in a debate when you throw around silly insults about a person.

And she cannot have been that humiliated, she seems to want her story to be splashed around as far and wide as possible.

[Benjamin]

I do believe that pregnant women shouldn't drink nor smoke during pregnancy though. One glass of wine might be fine for most women, but not everyone is the same and everyone has different limits, and just that one glass a week could be enough to damage the unborn child. Surely your child is more important than going 9 months without alcohol? It may be a small risk, but it's still a risk.

[Kizzy]

He suggested he didn't want it 'on his conscience'...
It had nothing to do with any bar policy initially, just him being judgemental.
He was being foolish, making assumptions is foolish.
Coffee and cola are to be restricted in pregnancy, I've never seen a Costa employee refuse service.

[Benjamin]

He suggested he didn't want it 'on his conscience'...
It had nothing to do with any bar policy initially, just him being judgemental.
He was being foolish, making assumptions is foolish.
Coffee and cola are to be restricted in pregnancy, I've never seen a Costa employee refuse service.

Those are nowhere near as common knowledge though so you cannot really compare them.

[Benjamin]

He suggested he didn't want it 'on his conscience'...
It had nothing to do with any bar policy initially, just him being judgemental.
He was being foolish, making assumptions is foolish.
Coffee and cola are to be restricted in pregnancy, I've never seen a Costa employee refuse service.

No, being foolish is having that glass of wine once a week during pregnancy. A small risk is still a risk.

[Kizzy]

I do believe that pregnant women shouldn't drink nor smoke during pregnancy though. One glass of wine might be fine for most women, but not everyone is the same and everyone has different limits, and just that one glass a week could be enough to damage the unborn child. Surely your child is more important than going 9 months without alcohol? It may be a small risk, but it's still a risk.

Well there we have it, you agree as they are your personal feelings too regardless of any supporting evidence.
It was humiliating, and perhaps she wishes to highlight this to ensure another expectant mother isn't shown up by this pariah.

[Benjamin]

Well there we have it, you agree as they are your personal feelings too regardless of any supporting evidence.
It was humiliating, and perhaps she wishes to highlight this to ensure another expectant mother isn't shown up by this pariah.

Like I said, if it was that humiliating she wouldn't be getting it broadcast to the whole world. Also, why do I need to back up my personal opinions with supporting evidence, the risks may be small, but a life of an unborn child is more important than a glass of wine.

[Kizzy]

Those are nowhere near as common knowledge though so you cannot really compare them.

I can... I just did there.
Just because someone ignorant to the facts took it upon himself to act as her personal physician, prohibiting her from alcohol as 'booze bad' does not mean he was right.
There is no evidence to support that at that 125ml quantity wine is any more detrimental to her child than coffee or cola.... none.

[Roy Mars III]

Batman can do whatever he wants

[Benjamin]

I can... I just did there.
Just because someone ignorant to the facts took it upon himself to act as her personal physician, prohibiting her from alcohol as 'booze bad' does not mean he was right.
There is no evidence to support that at that 125ml quantity wine is any more detrimental to her child than coffee or cola.... none.

Unless you are pregnant, have been pregnant or have been informed of coffee and cola, many people would not know about those things.

Alcohol is common one along with smoking that is often spoken about. So not really comparable.

[Benjamin]

And there may not be clear evidence, but there is still a massive uncertainty into how much alcohol is actually safe to drink. It's a risk that should not be taken.

[Kizzy]

Like I said, if it was that humiliating she wouldn't be getting it broadcast to the whole world. Also, why do I need to back up my personal opinions with supporting evidence, the risks may be small, but a life of an unborn child is more important than a glass of wine.

You don't have to repeat yourself ben, you don't have to back it ... I already checked there is no evidence that 125ml pw of wine has ANY adverse effect on foetal development.
So where does the supposition come from that it does?
Ignorance.

[Benjamin]

You don't have to repeat yourself ben, you don't have to back it ... I already checked there is no evidence that 125ml pw of wine has ANY adverse effect on foetal development.
So where does the supposition come from that it does?
Ignorance.

No, not ignorance. Ignorance is saying that there is no evidence so it must be fine, even though there is still a lot of uncertainty on that area.

[Benjamin]

It is not yet clear whether there is any small amount of drinking in pregnancy that might be completely safe from the risk of FASD. Therefore, pregnant women are advised to avoid all alcohol during pregnancy.
FASD and FAS-related disabilities carry on into adulthood, and because those effects due to drinking alcohol would have been completely prevented if the mother had not drunk during pregnancy, it is considered important to take a precautionary approach in advising on risk.
Read the answers to more questions about pregnancy.

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2270.aspx?CategoryID=54#close

[Kizzy]

No, not ignorance. Ignorance is saying that there is no evidence so it must be fine, even though there is still a lot of uncertainty on that area.
That is pretty fuzzy logic ben, there is no evidence to support that that level of consumption is unsafe, and and yet you suggest that it is still uncertain...
When will it be certain?

[Benjamin]

That is pretty fuzzy logic ben, there is no evidence to support that that level of consumption is unsafe, and and yet you suggest that it is still uncertain...
When will it be certain?

No, it is called playing it safe to the bundle of life that you are carrying and bringing into the world. And you worded your last sentence incorrectly, it's actually; there is no evidence to support that any level of consumption is safe.

[Kizzy]

No, it is called playing it safe to the bundle of life that you are carrying and bringing into the world. And you worded your last sentence incorrectly, it's actually; there is no evidence to support that any level of consumption is safe.

No, It's called adhering to governmental guidelines which (once again) state that 1 125ml measure of wine per week has never been found to have any adverse effect on an unborn child.
I can't copy and paste but that is the information I've seen.
We all have our own opinions though, let's leave it.

[Benjamin]

I stand by my opinions and from the fact there is no concrete evidence, whether people agree or not. I place more importance on a new life over a glass of wine.

But yes, let's leave it.

[Kizzy]

I stand by my opinions and from the fact there is no concrete evidence, whether people agree or not. I place more importance on a new life over a glass of wine.

But yes, let's leave it.

Good, I stand by mine too.
I don't understand there is no concrete evidence of what?....
Who doesn't place more importance on the child?
You're starting to sound a bit sanctimonious now ben.

[Benjamin]

Oh, give it a rest now. You just said we'd leave it at that, but no, you have to have the last word and try start it up again. I have said what I needed to, I don't need to keep trying justifying my opinions to you or anyone even if I do share them on here, and I don't appreciate you keeping on about my opinions, I'm not keeping on about yours. And me sanctimonious, because I place a higher regard for an unborn child over a glass of wine? If you feel like that maybe you have issues with feeling morally inferior?

So let's agree to do what you suggested and leave it at this shall we, or is that beyond you currently?

[thesheriff443]

Not his place to refuse her service when he knows none of the details, would be a different story if she was off her face drunk but she was only having a small glass with a meal, won't do any harm

said it all for me!:xyxwave:

[thesheriff443]

Batman can do whatever he wants

its not batman:nono: it was barman:joker:

[Ammi]

Not his place to refuse her service when he knows none of the details, would be a different story if she was off her face drunk but she was only having a small glass with a meal, won't do any harm

..To be honest that was my first thoughts as well Matt, unless she was 'obviously under the influence' when she tried to order the glass of wine..or then went on to order a second/third etc then it wasn't his judgement to make on one glass of wine...but I think it's probably a case of 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' because whether it should be the case or not, people do judge on pregnant woman smoking/drinking..I remember myself once seeing a heavily pregnant young lady smoking in the street and it just looked so wrong and I didn't feel comfortable with it at all..so it does attract judgement...

..if he had served her the wine, he could have felt that other customers in the bar wouldn't feel comfortable to be there and that it would cause them to 'judge' the bar itself as somewhere they would stop going to and that might have had a bearing on his decision....and yes, he could maybe have discreetly voiced his concerns to her and said that he would serve her this one glass of wine but only one because of how he felt...but I think he was quite new and we don't all always do 'the right thing'....so he made a decision and in doing that he upset one customer, perhaps he thought a different decision could have possibly upset much more..so right or wrong, I'm not sure I want to criticise or judge him either...maybe just a lack of communication all round but I'm not sure why she felt a need to talk to the media rather than to leave it with the communications and apologies she got from the establishment owners....

[user104658]

No, It's called adhering to governmental guidelines which (once again) state that 1 125ml measure of wine per week has never been found to have any adverse effect on an unborn child.
I can't copy and paste but that is the information I've seen.
We all have our own opinions though, let's leave it.

Right, and so the obvious thing to do is to risk becoming the first case of evidence that 125ml once a week can do harm.

That's the point here, really. "No evidence so far" doesn't mean it's impossible, just that there are no documented cases. Taking that risk is entirely up to the woman herself (although as I said I find needless risk taking with children, whether they're born yet or not, utterly selfish) - the decision not to be involved in it is, and should rightfully be, down to the person being asked to provide the alcohol.

There is a very slim chance that drinking a small amount is risking harm when pregnant, documented cases or not. Alcohol enters the bloodstream and alters brain chemistry (even small amounts) - an unborn baby directly shares it's mothers blood supply via the umbilical cord - therefore that alcohol may enter the child's bloodstream. Just because there's "no evidence yet"... It still doesn't sound like a particularly clever plan.

There is NO risk that NOT drinking is harmful. It's a no brainer.

I enjoy a drink every now and then, but honestly, if someone told me tomorrow that I can never have another sip so long as I live or risk (no matter how small) the health of my children, I'd really not be that bothered. I'd never so much as glance at the stuff again. What's 9 months?? Seriously! How about just, for less than one year, giving it a miss just incase?

I'd also add that if I was this young lad, I'd be informing the bar manager that I would still refuse service to pregnant women. If that cost me the job, so be it. A minimum wage is not worth compromising your morals.

[Ninastar]

^ well said.

[Z]

I doubt he's actually been given into trouble - the woman's turned it into national news so of course the bar has to be seen to be "doing something". I cannot understand those of you who are calling the barman an idiot. It's not like he thought "I don't know very much about pregnancy so just to be safe I'm going to refuse her service", rather he thought "it is common knowledge that pregnant women should not be drinking, smoking or taking drugs because it can seriously damage the unborn foetus - I don't want that on my conscience so I'm not going to serve her."

To put it another way - no good can possibly come from drinking wine while you're pregnant. It might not have any adverse effects on the child if you're only having the odd one every once in a while like this woman has been doing, but the child is getting its nutrients from what you're putting into your body and I know that I've heard lots of stories about the negative impacts of alcohol on newborns and absolutely none about the positives.

[Kyle]

I love Britain, it's one of the best countries in the world in my opinion but why is it so deeply rooted in our psyche that we have to abuse alcohol? And whenever someone suggests knocking it on the head for even a short while they look at you like you've walked into their house and pissed on their kids. :conf:

[Ammi]

..oh, I should also have said, there are judgements made in bars..some have bouncers on the door and I've heard of times that they may not let a big group of male youths in and those youths may not have actually been drinking much but they are obviously not comfortable doing that..and yet they may let a big group of young females in on say a hen night, who have obviously been drinking a lot...?..it's their call to make, they have a sign I think that says 'we have the right to refuse ..etc...' and they don't have to give a reason, just things they're not comfortable with....

..if I was to cast a judgement on this woman, it wouldn't be that she had a glass of wine occasionally, it would be that the letter of apology from the bar and I suspect any communications with them seemed perfectly polite and understanding and to me should have appeased her, mistakes are made if indeed she felt it wrong and understanding of her embarrassment by the bar owners was shown but it seems to me in her actions of going to the media, it's a bit of 'no one tells me what to do, how very dare they..outrageous...'..but yeah, that's just my thoughts on it...

[Suze]

I can't believe the woman has made such a song and dance over being refused the glass of wine unless she is an attention seeker. It doesn't really matter much who was in the right or wrong, but that is the barman's job to serve customers and if he refuses for whatever reasons, surely that is his prerogative in his job. It was only a glass of wine though, so why was she getting so upset about it, that's what I can't figure? :conf: Go get a glass of wine elsewhere if she needs it so much, a glass of water surely would have sufficed in the meantime with her meal.

[user104658]

..oh, I should also have said, there are judgements made in bars..some have bouncers on the door and I've heard of times that they may not let a big group of male youths in and those youths may not have actually been drinking much but they are obviously not comfortable doing that..and yet they may let a big group of young females in on say a hen night, who have obviously been drinking a lot...?..it's their call to make, they have a sign I think that says 'we have the right to refuse ..etc...' and they don't have to give a reason, just things they're not comfortable with....

..if I was to cast a judgement on this woman, it wouldn't be that she had a glass of wine occasionally, it would be that the letter of apology from the bar and I suspect any communications with them seemed perfectly polite and understanding and to me should have appeased her, mistakes are made if indeed she felt it wrong and understanding of her embarrassment by the bar owners was shown but it seems to me in her actions of going to the media, it's a bit of 'no one tells me what to do, how very dare they..outrageous...'..but yeah, that's just my thoughts on it...

Exactly, I don't understand people saying he had "no right" to turn her away. It's not a government service, it's not a universal human right to be served in a bar, it's a private establishment. The person serving has as much "right" to turn her away as I have the right to turn anyone I want to away from my own front door. Like you say; many bars have things like dress codes, age requirements (other than 18 - there are over 21's / over 25's / over 30's bars)... all sorts of reasons that people are turned away. This woman is just stropping because she feels like she's been "wronged" or "belittled".

[joeysteele]

..oh, I should also have said, there are judgements made in bars..some have bouncers on the door and I've heard of times that they may not let a big group of male youths in and those youths may not have actually been drinking much but they are obviously not comfortable doing that..and yet they may let a big group of young females in on say a hen night, who have obviously been drinking a lot...?..it's their call to make, they have a sign I think that says 'we have the right to refuse ..etc...' and they don't have to give a reason, just things they're not comfortable with....

..if I was to cast a judgement on this woman, it wouldn't be that she had a glass of wine occasionally, it would be that the letter of apology from the bar and I suspect any communications with them seemed perfectly polite and understanding and to me should have appeased her, mistakes are made if indeed she felt it wrong and understanding of her embarrassment by the bar owners was shown but it seems to me in her actions of going to the media, it's a bit of 'no one tells me what to do, how very dare they..outrageous...'..but yeah, that's just my thoughts on it...

For me, this post sums all up perfectly. I still lean more to the Barman's side on this matter.

I talked a fair bit last night and this morning to family who have had children since obviously being a man I don't have to go through all that.
Every single one of them said, from the time they knew they were pregnant they never touched alcohol until after the Baby was born.
They all agreed with the barman.

[Ammi]

..oh I should have also said..(final word..)..with females that ‘maternal instinct’ doesn’t just happen after birth, it happens as soon as she becomes pregnant and the instinct to protect her unborn child..(for most people..) and I’m not saying that she wanted to harm her child in any way, I’m sure that she didn’t and genuinely felt and possibly researched that a glass of wine once or twice a week was perfectly fine and would rather maybe have that in a social situation like a bar, rather than, say, alone in her own home..I’m sure that woman didn’t think she was doing anything harmful at all..and maybe she wasn’t..?...there is no ‘absolute proof’...but I can also not understand anyone or any mother specifically laying criticism of someone who was just acting in her own child’s interest because after all isn’t this about the child and a decision that barman felt he wanted to make, whether it be over cautious perhaps or not..most mothers would appreciate the thought behind it as he was only acting to protect her child....it’s not something I would personally dispute if anything similar happened to me...

..anyway, there's nothing really else much for me to say...

[thesheriff443]

just to add, if the woman was in early pregnancy and it did not show, she could be legless and the barman would still be serving her unaware she was pregnant, if a woman wants to drink while pregnant there is no law that says she cant!

[RichardG]

Whether his decision to do as he did was right or wrong, i'm sure he meant well for her when he refused the alcohol. I don't understand why she went running to the news about it.

[Ammi]

just to add, if the woman was in early pregnancy and it did not show, she could be legless and the barman would still be serving her unaware she was pregnant, if a woman wants to drink while pregnant there is no law that says she cant!

..there is isn't any law to say that she or any other woman can't drink while pregnant..as much or as often as they want to...she had an absolute right to order that glass of wine..he also had an absolute right to refuse to serve her though if he didn't feel comfortable with that, which is what he did..I think if anything what this questions is an employee's right to use their own judgement, which I think for me is more important...

[thesheriff443]

..there is isn't any law to say that she or any other woman can't drink while pregnant..as much or as often as they want to...she had an absolute right to order that glass of wine..he also had an absolute right to refuse to serve her though if he didn't feel comfortable with that, which is what he did..I think if anything what this questions is an employee's right to use their own judgement, which I think for me is more important...

so should someone working in a fast food outlet refuse to serve someone who is overweight because he is not comfortable with it?, the answer is no!

his job is to serve and not decide what is right or wrong!

[MTVN]

..oh I should have also said..(final word..)..with females that ‘maternal instinct’ doesn’t just happen after birth, it happens as soon as she becomes pregnant and the instinct to protect her unborn child..(for most people..) and I’m not saying that she wanted to harm her child in any way, I’m sure that she didn’t and genuinely felt and possibly researched that a glass of wine once or twice a week was perfectly fine and would rather maybe have that in a social situation like a bar, rather than, say, alone in her own home..I’m sure that woman didn’t think she was doing anything harmful at all..and maybe she wasn’t..?...there is no ‘absolute proof’...but I can also not understand anyone or any mother specifically laying criticism of someone who was just acting in her own child’s interest because after all isn’t this about the child and a decision that barman felt he wanted to make, whether it be over cautious perhaps or not..most mothers would appreciate the thought behind it as he was only acting to protect her child....it’s not something I would personally dispute if anything similar happened to me...

..anyway, there's nothing really else much for me to say...

Agree and if she's believed in the article it sounds like she's more concious about her babies health than a lot of people (perhaps even overly so)

She added: 'Throughout my pregnancy I have taken good care of myself and made the best choices for my baby. I eat five portions of fruit and vegetables a day and make a fresh carrot, ginger and apple juice every morning.

'I don’t even use normal deodorant because I am concerned about using environmentally friendly and ethical products.

'I have read numerous articles about the effects of drinking alcohol when pregnant and I believe one small glass of wine once a week is not harmful to me or my baby.

'I had no alcohol during first 12 weeks of pregnancy apart from one glass of bubbly and one wine in that 12 week period and then, at most one glass a week, but not every week.

Think it's a bit unfair for people to say she's gambling with the health of her child or whatever, if you really want to go down that road of what might harm a baby, despite there being no evidence, I'm sure you would have to cut out a huge amount of things and enforce a ridiculously strict diet and lifestyle that would be completely unreasonable to adhere to

[Ammi]

so should someone working in a fast food outlet refuse to serve someone who is overweight because he is not comfortable with it?, the answer is no!

his job is to serve and not decide what is right or wrong!

..his ‘job’ was to do his job which involved serving customers drinks, which he did..in that job or indeed any other job we’re often required to use our own judgement in situations, which he also did on this occasion, I don't think it's in question that he did his job...whether it was an ‘over cautious’ judgement or not...well, there is a saying...'best to err on the side of caution than the other way round..' and especially on something which you might then feel any personal responsibility if you’re judgement was wrong....I think he did his job in the best he knew how and unfortunately it meant that he upset a customer, which the bar apologised for...there is no ‘perfect world’ and definitely not in a workplace...

[Cherie]

Storm in a tea cup this which should never had made the news. I can see both sides really.

Interesting article here.
http://www.babble.com/pregnancy/six-biggest-pregnancy-myths/

[Tom4784]

This whole thing says more about her then it does him. She seems irresponsible and that desperation for a drink is telling.

[Josy]

I can't believe the woman has made such a song and dance over being refused the glass of wine unless she is an attention seeker. It doesn't really matter much who was in the right or wrong, but that is the barman's job to serve customers and if he refuses for whatever reasons, surely that is his prerogative in his job. It was only a glass of wine though, so why was she getting so upset about it, that's what I can't figure? :conf: Go get a glass of wine elsewhere if she needs it so much, a glass of water surely would have sufficed in the meantime with her meal.

Exactly, she's made a complete mountain out of a mole hill.

She also protests too much about how much alcohol she drinks throughout her pregnancy IMO.

There is not enough evidence to prove either way about alcohol consumption during pregnancies so she could still potentially be causing harm to her unborn child.

Lay off the drink for 9 months of your life for your baby's sake, it cant be that hard ffs.

[Ninastar]

^well said Josy.

she's also 37, which is an age where the risk is twice as much greater for a number of different complications... I just wouldn't bother if I were her.

[AnnieK]

Lol....I really don't think she was desperate for a drink...her issue is more about being humiliated (in her mind) by a stranger in public. Her hormones by this time in her pregnancy will be in overdrive so critism and conflict are harder to deal with.

[Kizzy]

Oh, give it a rest now. You just said we'd leave it at that, but no, you have to have the last word and try start it up again. I have said what I needed to, I don't need to keep trying justifying my opinions to you or anyone even if I do share them on here, and I don't appreciate you keeping on about my opinions, I'm not keeping on about yours. And me sanctimonious, because I place a higher regard for an unborn child over a glass of wine? If you feel like that maybe you have issues with feeling morally inferior?

So let's agree to do what you suggested and leave it at this shall we, or is that beyond you currently?

You didn't leave it ben you made another quite grandiose statement about the situation.
What are 'issues with feeling morally inferior'?
125ml of wine with a meal is fine, the barperson overreacted and created this situation.
Nothing is 'beyond me currently'
If you got cross as I said you sounded sanctamonious sorry.

[Kizzy]

I just can't believe it.... :laugh:
So her opinion (being the one carrying the child)
Whoever else she consulted over this, research done, counts for nothing as the the voice of this man who works in a bar is more viable?
If he thinks that alcohol is so incredibly dangerous even in such low quantities why does he work in a bar?

[Ninastar]

^ because not everyone he serves is 9 months pregnant

[thesheriff443]

in this case the bar man was discriminating against her because she was pregnant which is wrong.
for all the women that are agreeing with the bar man, put your self in her position! it would not have been an issue if the husband would of ordered the drink.
we should disregard pregnant women?

[thesheriff443]

I just can't believe it.... :laugh:
So her opinion (being the one carrying the child)
Whoever else she consulted over this, research done, counts for nothing as the the voice of this man who works in a bar is more viable?
If he thinks that alcohol is so incredibly dangerous even in such low quantities why does he work in a bar?

it does make you wonder on here!

[Kizzy]

^ because not everyone he serves is 9 months pregnant

As said he could have countless times served pregnant women without even realising.
If he really was so against the concept of being the one to serve alcohol why put yourself in that position?

[thesheriff443]

As said he could have countless times served pregnant women without even realising.
If he really was so against the concept of being the one to serve alcohol why put yourself in that position?

he could also serve someone that then goes and drives home knocking down a pregnant woman!:joker:
what a hypocrite!

[Ninastar]

As said he could have countless times served pregnant women without even realising.
If he really was so against the concept of being the one to serve alcohol why put yourself in that position?

because this time it was totally obvious that she was pregnant.

[Cherie]

I wonder how many of the men outraged at this woman having a small glass of wine with her meal, have given up for 9 months in solidarity with their partner or even in the months before conception (if they were trying to have a child), took supplements, excercised and basically led an exemplery lifestyle so that their sperm is in tip top condition. :whistle:

[thesheriff443]

I wonder how many of the men outraged at this woman having a small glass of wine with her meal, have given up for 9 months in solidarity with their partner or even in the months before conception (if they were trying to have a child) so that their sperm is in tip top condition. :whistle:

im tee total and always have been, so my sperm are usain bolts of the sperm world,lol

[Marc]

I'd have given her a small drink and then looked up quickly at the legal limit for a pregnant lady and either refused or allowed a second.

[Cherie]

im tee total and always have been, so my sperm are usain bolts of the sperm world,lol

:joker:indeed but it is not just alcohol that can affect the quality, diet and excercise are also important so I hope you adhered to the strict guidelines laid down by the government on this...if there are any? oh wait...

[MeMyselfAndI]

I personally think anyone who drinks when heavily pregnant is very selfish, and this woman is not only that but she just wants her story spread round everywhere, such an attention seeker

[Cherie]

I personally think anyone who drinks when heavily pregnant is very selfish, and this woman is not only that but she just wants her story spread round everywhere, such an attention
seeker

It is more important to avoid alcohol in the first trimester due to the foetus being in the developmental stage.

[Marsh.]

I wonder how many of the men outraged at this woman having a small glass of wine with her meal, have given up for 9 months in solidarity with their partner or even in the months before conception (if they were trying to have a child), took supplements, excercised and basically led an exemplery lifestyle so that their sperm is in tip top condition. :whistle:

:laugh: But why does it have to be such a problem that the partner would have to stop drinking it too?

If you struggle to go without alcohol for a few months then there are a few problems that need addressing.

[Z]

Lol....I really don't think she was desperate for a drink...her issue is more about being humiliated (in her mind) by a stranger in public. Her hormones by this time in her pregnancy will be in overdrive so critism and conflict are harder to deal with.

I'd also be inclined to say that her wild hormones are what prompted her to turn this into a national news story... this really isn't a big deal at all - the barman didn't refuse her service to upset her, he did it out of concern for her unborn child's well being - if that makes him a horrible person in her eyes then that's her problem, I'm sure he'd rather go to bed knowing that he hasn't given alcohol to a pregnant woman than give in to her demands for a glass of wine. I'm personally shocked that she's been drinking throughout her pregnancy, it's well documented that drinking alcohol when you're pregnant isn't advised - using the whole thing of moderation like it were some kind of fad diet is total horse **** in my opinion - don't drink, smoke, do drugs and eat as balanced and healthy a diet as possible if you're really concerned about the well being of your unborn child. A glass of red wine isn't part of your daily recommended intake, so why chance it? It's irresponsible in my opinion.

[Vicky.]

My midwife told me that a few glasses of wine (a week) was perfectly fine.

And that its actually recommended that some women have a drink of guiness every week or so to help with iron levels.

This barperson sounds a twat.

Though if she was caning the drink, I would have refused too..but one drink takes the piss

[Z]

It is more important to avoid alcohol in the first trimester due to the foetus being in the developmental stage.

While I don't doubt that this is true - the whole concept of a foetus, and latterly a baby, is that it is permanently in a developmental stage until, you know, you reach adulthood... and this woman's even admitted that she's had alcohol in the first 12 weeks of her pregnancy, knowingly...

[Vicky.]

It is more important to avoid alcohol in the first trimester due to the foetus being in the developmental stage.

Yup, this too.

[Ammi]

..I don’t believe she was selfish in that if we’re to believe what she says and there is no reason not to, then she was very responsible in her alcohol intake and genuinely believed that it wasn’t harmful to her unborn child..she also had the choice to give up completely which she didn’t take but instead chose to have a moderate amount a few times a week..these were all her own choices to make and completely within her control and possibly quite safe...but every choice isn’t hers to make and it was never her choice whether someone would serve her that alcohol...in this case it was the choice of that barman and he made his choice which he was completely in his rights to do....maybe she didn’t like that other people in life also have choices and sometimes they may conflict with what she wants and her own decisions but none of us have control over everything that happens in life...so in forum words..seriously, get over it...save your energy for those sleepless nights and the exhaustion that can be new parenthood...

[Cherie]

While I don't doubt that this is true - the whole concept of a foetus, and latterly a baby, is that it is permanently in a developmental stage until, you know, you reach adulthood... and this woman's even admitted that she's had alcohol in the first 12 weeks of her pregnancy, knowingly...



The end of the first trimester appears to be the period when alcohol can wreak the most havoc on fetal development, causing physical deformities as well as behavioral and cognitive symptoms, according to research in the journal Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research.

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/18/alcohol-never-safe-for-developing-babies-during-pregnancy/#ixzz2gI7kDlDY

[Shaun]

I'm so bored of this overprotective BS. If it ends up damaging the child then it's her problem, nobody else's. All of this "I should stop her from buying something potentially harmful to the child" nonsense... so does that mean she shouldn't be able to buy kitchen knives? Paracetamol? Cars? I mean cars might lead to the death of both mother and foetus, so they're more dangerous, right?

It's so much weight put on what "might" be harmful to the child (and since that medical advice varies from midwife to midwife, and doctors, as Vicky pointed out) when really, what this boils down to is a man failing to do his job.

[Kizzy]

Wow that's a lot of choices.... :laugh:
She was humiliated by a person who knew little or nothing about the 'effects' which appear to be at best negligible.
Many doctors and midwives advocated guinness and mackesons stout during pregnancy, and the British Heart Foundation suggest 1 125ml red wine beneficial...
There is conflicting advice but the real issue is again down to our British attitude to alcohol, that it is something to have when you want to get ****faced and thats it.....
If you travelled to France Italy or Germany what would their attitude be?

[Niamh.]

*also read Batman :laugh:*



If he were the father I'd agree, but he's nothing to do with the customer and shouldn't be restricting service because he thinks it's best. Just doesn't make sense to me. Patronising busy-bodiness.

:worship:

[Z]

I'm so bored of this overprotective BS. If it ends up damaging the child then it's her problem, nobody else's. All of this "I should stop her from buying something potentially harmful to the child" nonsense... so does that mean she shouldn't be able to buy kitchen knives? Paracetamol? Cars? I mean cars might lead to the death of both mother and foetus, so they're more dangerous, right?

It's so much weight put on what "might" be harmful to the child (and since that medical advice varies from midwife to midwife, and doctors, as Vicky pointed out) when really, what this boils down to is a man failing to do his job.

Kitchen knives are for chopping. Paracetamol is for pain. Cars are for transport. Alcohol is for getting drunk. There is a marked difference between an item that could secondarily cause adverse effects and something that has a primary objective of messing up the human body. A bar is inclined to not serve you if it thinks serving you will cause it problems - whether that be a too-drunk-18-year-old or a heavily-pregnant-mother-to-be. Foetal alcohol syndrome is an actual thing. It's common knowledge that getting drunk while you're pregnant is frowned upon. The barman made his choice and most people think he was right to do so - he didn't serve her because he thought it would be wrong to do so. He didn't not serve her just to embarrass her. He didn't fail to do his job, rather he did his job properly - he didn't give alcohol to someone he felt shouldn't be drinking alcohol.

[Vicky.]

Also, I feel the need to point out here..when I was actually IN LABOUR..the hospital pumped me full of codeine, told me to go home and have a bath and a glass of wine (while on tablets!) and relax.

So no, I dont think it can do as much harm as some think. Or the hospital wouldn't have advised that. I don't drink wine anyway unless I want to get pissed, so I didnt do it mind.

Some of you would think I was an absolute monster when I was pregnant, I never gave up smoking completely, though I did cut down to about 2 a day..midwife said this was ok as smoking so little is pretty much the same as not smoking. I drank blue wkd (it was one of my cravings in the early days too..which was awkward :laugh: ) a few times a week..though only one or two small bottles too.

[Vicky.]

I'm so bored of this overprotective BS. If it ends up damaging the child then it's her problem, nobody else's. All of this "I should stop her from buying something potentially harmful to the child" nonsense... so does that mean she shouldn't be able to buy kitchen knives? Paracetamol? Cars? I mean cars might lead to the death of both mother and foetus, so they're more dangerous, right?

It's so much weight put on what "might" be harmful to the child (and since that medical advice varies from midwife to midwife, and doctors, as Vicky pointed out) when really, what this boils down to is a man failing to do his job.

I swear to god if you listen to all of the guidelines and such when pregnant, you would live on nothing but raw veg. But no carrots as they are bad for you now apparently :joker:

I tried to do everything right to begin with. In the end, I ate as I normally do, cut back on drinking and smoking, took my vitamins, and enjoyed my pregnancy. I think it would have drove me crazy to be obsessively watching every little thing that went into my body and constantly 'resting'. The stress of doing that would have been no good for the baby either :S

I am nearly certain that all these holier than thou types are either men who dont understand, people who have never been pregnant, or people who are kidding themselves. I honestly think you would be hard pushed to find someone who had stuck to the 'rules' right through their pregnancy. Even little things like eating an egg or a nut can cause problems. The last few months are the safest too. So if you are goig to 'cheat', its the best time to do it.

[Kizzy]

Why is FAS being brought up?
it's another example of an overreaction to this situation, she had one 125ml glass... one.
In no universe would that cause FAS.
It was only his opinion it was wrong, providing alcohol to those intoxicated or underage is illegal... this isn't.
He should keep his ignorant uneducated opinions to himself then he wouldn't embarrass himself and others.

[Niamh.]

I swear to god if you listen to all of the guidelines and such when pregnant, you would live on nothing but raw veg. But no carrots as they are bad for you now apparently :joker:

I tried to do everything right to begin with. In the end, I ate as I normally do, cut back on drinking and smoking, took my vitamins, and enjoyed my pregnancy. I think it would have drove me crazy to be obsessively watching every little thing that went into my body and constantly 'resting'. The stress of doing that would have been no good for the baby either :S

When my mom was pregnant with my older brother, Liver was supposed to be good for you when you're pregnant so she ate it everyday........now they say it's really bad to eat while pregnant. They're constantly changing the rules on these things.

[Z]

Why is FAS being brought up?
it's another example of an overreaction to this situation, she had one 125ml glass... one.
In no universe would that cause FAS.
It was only his opinion it was wrong, providing alcohol to those intoxicated or underage is illegal... this isn't.
He should keep his ignorant uneducated opinions to himself then he wouldn't embarrass himself and others.

Because how are we supposed to know this woman is only having one glass of wine a week and she's living this perfectly healthy pregnancy lifestyle? She comes across as a hysterical attention seeker to me by going to the media over something so trivial, personally I wouldn't want my pregnant partner to be drinking alcohol at all while she was carrying my child but that's neither here nor there. I brought up foetal alcohol syndrome because it's something that happens if you binge drink while pregnant. You don't get FAS from being sober for 9 months. WHY would anyone take the risk of crippling their unborn child and seriously messing them up when they could just abstain and not? No, I'm not a woman and no, I've never had a child, but I know that if I worked in a bar and I was asked for a drink by a pregnant woman, I couldn't serve her, it would go against my morals. "Ignorant uneducated opinions"??? Seriously? It's a commonly held belief that drinking alcohol while pregnant is damaging. It's only a very recent discovery that that is not the case. He hasn't embarrassed himself. This woman has, by turning her indignant attitude into media fodder.

[Vicky.]

When my mom was pregnant with my older brother, Liver was supposed to be good for you when you're pregnant so she ate it everyday........now they say it's really bad to eat while pregnant. They're constantly changing the rules on these things.

Exactly. Which is why you get conflicting medical advice.

To be honest, I am of the opinion that they dont actually know what causes problems and what doesnt, so they just make it up as they go along. Though obviously blaming smoking/drinking for the bulk, like with everything else (I once went to the docs with a cold and was told it was through smoking :D )

Apparently when my mum was pregnant, the advice was a pint of Guinness a day to stop anemia. Which is probably where the guinness thing came from from my midwife. I guess I should have listened and forced myself to drink guiness, as through not doing so, I ended up with anemia about 20 weeks in :joker:

[Kizzy]

I swear to god if you listen to all of the guidelines and such when pregnant, you would live on nothing but raw veg. But no carrots as they are bad for you now apparently :joker:

I tried to do everything right to begin with. In the end, I ate as I normally do, cut back on drinking and smoking, took my vitamins, and enjoyed my pregnancy. I think it would have drove me crazy to be obsessively watching every little thing that went into my body and constantly 'resting'. The stress of doing that would have been no good for the baby either :S

I am nearly certain that all these holier than thou types are either men who dont understand, people who have never been pregnant, or people who are kidding themselves. I honestly think you would be hard pushed to find someone who had stuck to the 'rules' right through their pregnancy. Even little things like eating an egg or a nut can cause problems. The last few months are the safest too. So if you are goig to 'cheat', its the best time to do it.

Well done you vicky, so either now there will be a full 180 from some or you will be ripped to shreds.... Place your bets!
:laugh:

[Vicky.]

I bet on ripped to shreds..but meh. My body, I had no problems, and my baby is healthy. Would have had the same turnout if I had stressed myself to hell and timed my meals down to the second and planned my meals down to the calorie and not moved for 9 months bar a short brisk walk twice a day. I did it right by me :p

[Niamh.]

Because how are we supposed to know this woman is only having one glass of wine a week and she's living this perfectly healthy pregnancy lifestyle? She comes across as a hysterical attention seeker to me by going to the media over something so trivial, personally I wouldn't want my pregnant partner to be drinking alcohol at all while she was carrying my child but that's neither here nor there. I brought up foetal alcohol syndrome because it's something that happens if you binge drink while pregnant. You don't get FAS from being sober for 9 months. WHY would anyone take the risk of crippling their unborn child and seriously messing them up when they could just abstain and not? No, I'm not a woman and no, I've never had a child, but I know that if I worked in a bar and I was asked for a drink by a pregnant woman, I couldn't serve her, it would go against my morals. "Ignorant uneducated opinions"??? Seriously? It's a commonly held belief that drinking alcohol while pregnant is damaging. It's only a very recent discovery that that is not the case. He hasn't embarrassed himself. This woman has, by turning her indignant attitude into media fodder.

At the end of the day, it's this womans body and nobody elses. If she's going to be irresponsible and get drunk, she's going to do that regardless of whether that barman served her or not although it doesn't seem like this is the case. If I were her I would feel the same way about some idiot telling me what I can and can't put into MY body.

[Kizzy]

Because how are we supposed to know this woman is only having one glass of wine a week and she's living this perfectly healthy pregnancy lifestyle? She comes across as a hysterical attention seeker to me by going to the media over something so trivial, personally I wouldn't want my pregnant partner to be drinking alcohol at all while she was carrying my child but that's neither here nor there. I brought up foetal alcohol syndrome because it's something that happens if you binge drink while pregnant. You don't get FAS from being sober for 9 months. WHY would anyone take the risk of crippling their unborn child and seriously messing them up when they could just abstain and not? No, I'm not a woman and no, I've never had a child, but I know that if I worked in a bar and I was asked for a drink by a pregnant woman, I couldn't serve her, it would go against my morals. "Ignorant uneducated opinions"??? Seriously? It's a commonly held belief that drinking alcohol while pregnant is damaging. It's only a very recent discovery that that is not the case. He hasn't embarrassed himself. This woman has, by turning her indignant attitude into media fodder.

How are you supposed to know?...
Because she told us in the article zee, and I wouldn't have said highlighting this issue for other expectant mothers is wrong if they happened to be confronted by the patron saint of barpersons trying to save their soul...
It is not your child or his child it is their child the mother and father who were attempting to have a nice evening, before someone came stomping on it with their big 'moral' boots!
It is a common belief that a LOT of alcohol causes problems.... it is a myth that one glass does.

[Z]

How are you supposed to know?...
Because she told us in the article zee, and I wouldn't have said highlighting this issue for other expectant mothers is wrong if they happened to be confronted by the patron saint of barpersons trying to save their soul...
It is not your child or his child it is their child the mother and father who were attempting to have a nice evening, before someone came stomping on it with their big 'moral' boots!
It is a common belief that a LOT of alcohol causes problems.... it is a myth that one glass does.

Yeah but how's a barman supposed to know if she's not had one yet or if she's been tanning wine every day of her pregnancy and this is her on her first one of the night? I just think if I were in his position, I wouldn't want to be responsible for that. I don't take personal opinion pieces at face value because you're just getting one side of a story here, I'd be interested to hear what the barman has to say for himself because maybe this woman was acting like she was drunk (even if she was totally sober) or maybe he just believed that it was wrong to give alcohol to a pregnant woman.

[smudgie]

I wonder what the position is re having sex whilst pregnant, how often and up to how near the birth. Next thing they will be telling us to abstain from that as well.

Wonder just how many men would be happy if that was the case.

[Niamh.]

I wonder what the position is re having sex whilst pregnant, how often and up to how near the birth. Next thing they will be telling us to abstain from that as well.

Wonder just how many men would be happy if that was the case.

:laugh:

[MTVN]

I dont really know why having a small glass of wine with a meal is being equated with alcoholism or evidence of a drinking problem. Most people dont drink purely for the intention of getting off their face drunk, and in this case even less so, its simply a completely normal and harmless part of going out to eat in the evening

[Kizzy]

Yeah but how's a barman supposed to know if she's not had one yet or if she's been tanning wine every day of her pregnancy and this is her on her first one of the night? I just think if I were in his position, I wouldn't want to be responsible for that. I don't take personal opinion pieces at face value because you're just getting one side of a story here, I'd be interested to hear what the barman has to say for himself because maybe this woman was acting like she was drunk (even if she was totally sober) or maybe he just believed that it was wrong to give alcohol to a pregnant woman.

Too many ifs and buts in there.
He may have made an assumption that would be wrong too, he could have given his explanation had he wanted to. Maybe his 'conscience' wouldn't let him?

[Z]

I dont really know why having a small glass of wine with a meal is being equated with alcoholism or evidence of a drinking problem. Most people dont drink purely for the intention of getting off their face drunk, and in this case even less so, its simply a completely normal and harmless part of going out to eat in the evening

It's not, but I don't see why you need to have a glass of wine every week like clockwork when there are no apparent benefits to drinking one, it's just not harmful as was once thought - and up until I read this thread for the first time, I still believed was the case as I'm sure most people who aren't expecting a baby do too.

[Z]

Too many ifs and buts in there.
He may have made an assumption that would be wrong too, he could have given his explanation had he wanted to. Maybe his 'conscience' wouldn't let him?

There are also too many ifs and buts with taking medical advice on pregnancy seeing as the rules change all the time. How much would you kick yourself if you drank alcohol throughout your pregnancy, once a week with a 125ml glass of wine, only to discover you'd damaged your child in some way. It's much easier to just... not do it. My sympathies are with the barman, he wasn't trying to impress morals on the woman, he just didn't want it on his conscience - which is totally fair enough if you ask me. I'm sorry for the woman that she feels humiliated but I'm fairly sure her hormones are causing her to overreact to such a minor incident that nobody in the bar would remember 10 minutes later and going to the media over it?!

[Vanessa]

I think it's better if pregnant women don't drink at all. However, a small glass once in a while won't do any harm.

[Kizzy]

There are also too many ifs and buts with taking medical advice on pregnancy seeing as the rules change all the time. How much would you kick yourself if you drank alcohol throughout your pregnancy, once a week with a 125ml glass of wine, only to discover you'd damaged your child in some way. It's much easier to just... not do it. My sympathies are with the barman, he wasn't trying to impress morals on the woman, he just didn't want it on his conscience - which is totally fair enough if you ask me. I'm sorry for the woman that she feels humiliated but I'm fairly sure her hormones are causing her to overreact to such a minor incident that nobody in the bar would remember 10 minutes later and going to the media over it?!

So now she's just a hysterical hormonal woman?.... keep digging!
:joker:

[Z]

So now she's just a hysterical hormonal woman?.... keep digging!
:joker:

I don't remember reading about it in the press the last time I saw someone be refused service in a bar.

[Kizzy]

I don't remember reading about it in the press the last time I saw someone be refused service in a bar.

As I said eariler, in cases where someone is refused service the employee are acting either within the law or company policy...
This was neither was it?
Just some guy inflicting his half baked assumptions on to customers, many would have felt aggrieved.

[Cherie]

Kitchen knives are for chopping. Paracetamol is for pain. Cars are for transport. Alcohol is for getting drunk. There is a marked difference between an item that could secondarily cause adverse effects and something that has a primary objective of messing up the human body. A bar is inclined to not serve you if it thinks serving you will cause it problems - whether that be a too-drunk-18-year-old or a heavily-pregnant-mother-to-be. Foetal alcohol syndrome is an actual thing. It's common knowledge that getting drunk while you're pregnant is frowned upon. The barman made his choice and most people think he was right to do so - he didn't serve her because he thought it would be wrong to do so. He didn't not serve her just to embarrass her. He didn't fail to do his job, rather he did his job properly - he didn't give alcohol to someone he felt shouldn't be drinking alcohol.


And there in lies the problem, there are people who can and do have just one or two drinks to relax but without the aim of getting drunk, Im not sure this womans aim was to get drunk either as otherwise she would have ordered a bottle!

[Scarlett.]

I don't get why she was so desperate for wine that she went to the media about it, I mean, Jesus, surely she can go without it during pregnancy, just in case. Do people really find it so hard to live without alcohol?

[Vanessa]

I don't get why she was so desperate for wine that she went to the media about it, I mean, Jesus, surely she can go without it during pregnancy, just in case. Do people really find it so hard to live without alcohol?

It's 9 months. I'd find it impossible. :joker:

[Cherie]

I don't get why she was so desperate for wine that she went to the media about it, I mean, Jesus, surely she can go without it during pregnancy, just in case. Do people really find it so hard to live without alcohol?

It was the principal surely of being told what to do with her body? does this barman refuse to serve men more than two pints just in case they decide to drive home whilst over the limit, and kill someone in the process. It was a small glass of wine she wasn't lining up shots on the bar top and dancing naked on the tables.

It's 9 months. I'd find it impossible. :joker:

:joker:

[Ammi]

..I think it is up to her what she puts into her body and I don't think she was irresponsible either, from what she's said and the amount of units she drank, she was very informed and measured in her alcohol intake in pregnancy...but it isn't up to her who sells it to her and he was within his rights to refuse anyone he doesn't feel comfortable with serving for whatever reasons, which he did....I think it's unfortunate that people can't make judgement calls in their employment without the added worry that it'll become 'viral'....

[MTVN]

Is that his right to refuse service? He doesn't get to decide company policy, a week or two back I posted the story of the EDL leader getting refused service in Selfridges, in that case everyone thought the shop worker was in the wrong because it wasn't his place to decline someone service and the store agreed, suspended the worker, and gave Tommy Robinson a slap up lunch for free. I would say the same applies here; the barman was acting not in accordance with his bar policy and therefore made a mistake

[GypsyGoth]

Drunk babies are great fun!

http://i.imgur.com/s1fblRv.jpg

[Kizzy]

You're not helping gypsy you little tinker! :laugh:

[GypsyGoth]

:laugh:

[Vicky.]

Drunk babies are great fun!

http://i.imgur.com/s1fblRv.jpg

]https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/969420_668909393136178_1341355439_n.jpg

Skyes christening :blush2:

We do have one somewhere where she looks pissed and is next to my wkd bottle but I cant find it /responsible parent

But yeah, I dont think it was because this woman was so desperate for a drink, more the way the bartender made her feel tbh. Its unacceptable, and I doubt so many would agree if it was something else thats bad in pregnancy.. A larger (but still obviously) pregnant person gets refused a meal in mcdonalds..sounds ridiculous, yes? But junk food is just as bad for baby as drink is. Just theres a huge stigma attached to alcohol, even when drank sensibly.

Also LOL at the sex thing. Yeah, blokes wouldnt be impressed then at all and I'm sure that would be one of the 'rules' that should be ignored ;)

[Shaun]

alcohol is for getting drunk.

When you're 15, maybe. I doubt her intention was to get blottoed. Some people drink wine with any meal.

[Ninastar]

I'm all for letting and idiot be an idiot and leave them to deal with the consequences, but when there's someone who doesn't get a choice involved (the unborn baby) then I'd have my say and not allow it.

Like others are saying, if she's that embarrassed, don't go crying to the media about it.

and as for the whole, 'everything isn't allowed at one point' argument, alcohol is something that is a risk to anyone, never mind a person who is with child.

[Vicky.]

I'm all for letting and idiot be an idiot and leave them to deal with the consequences, but when there's someone who doesn't get a choice involved (the unborn baby) then I'd have my say and not allow it.

Like others are saying, if she's that embarrassed, don't go crying to the media about it.

and as for the whole, 'everything isn't allowed at one point' argument, alcohol is something that is a risk to anyone, never mind a person who is with child.

So is pretty much everything. Depending which experts you listen to.

Nothings harmful in moderation IMO. Except for obvious things like smack that get you hooked immediately :laugh:

[Z]

So is pretty much everything. Depending which experts you listen to.

Yeah but alcohol more so than pretty much anything else you could put into your body short of actual poison or something. Experts saying "carrots are bad for your unborn foetus" is one thing (for example) but in general carrots are good for you. There are no real positive health benefits with alcohol, other than that in moderation (key word) red wine isn't bad for you.

[Z]

When you're 15, maybe. I doubt her intention was to get blottoed. Some people drink wine with any meal.

I didn't say "getting wasted and getting an ambulance home", I said getting drunk. You cannot possibly refute that fact that alcohol gets you drunk, and wine is a kind of alcohol. These are facts?!?!

[Vicky.]

Yeah but alcohol more so than pretty much anything else you could put into your body short of actual poison or something. Experts saying "carrots are bad for your unborn foetus" is one thing (for example) but in general carrots are good for you. There are no real positive health benefits with alcohol, other than that in moderation (key word) red wine isn't bad for you.

Exactly..moderation

It just seems these days that anything to do with alcohol is immediately bad. When most people have the ****ing sense not to get totally bladdered and most mature people do not drink with the sole thought of getting pissed out of their skulls.

The judgement of this woman on here..and by the bartender, for wanting one glass of wine is ridiculous I think :S

I could understand it if she was on a bender or something (I know a woman who drank like a fish when pregnant, and I did tell her in no uncertain terms that she was a ***********) but really..one glass. When even the hospital tell you to do it? :joker:

[Vanessa]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-oqktgZUrZv3ekMezawmnGbflVzKYCpBQQ2ZeyjDxiTFVl4vDtA

[Z]

Exactly..moderation

It just seems these days that anything to do with alcohol is immediately bad. When most people have the ****ing sense not to get totally bladdered and most mature people do not drink with the sole thought of getting pissed out of their skulls.

The judgement of this woman on here..and by the bartender, for wanting one glass of wine is ridiculous I think :S

I could understand it if she was on a bender or something (I know a woman who drank like a fish when pregnant, and I did tell her in no uncertain terms that she was a ***********) but really..one glass. When even the hospital tell you to do it? :joker:

I've been defending the barman throughout this thread though - his job is to serve paying customers. Sometimes he will have to make a judgment call about the well being of customers because if he serves someone one drink too many, he could indirectly cause that person any number of possible problems - they might fall off a bridge, be raped, walk into traffic, need their stomach pumped... the list goes on. Falling in line with that, the barman's judgment was that this heavily pregnant woman shouldn't be drinking alcohol because he didn't want anything on his conscience. Evidently he is not informed about the risks or lack of associated with drinking alcohol while pregnant, but like many other people, he will have been taught that pregnancy and alcohol should never mix. How is he supposed to know that this woman follows a strict routine as advised by her doctor? I'm sure he'd rather be given into trouble for not serving her than serving her and worrying about it when he went to bed that night.

[Josy]

This is the way I think of the drinking during pregnancy thing.

Would you fill your month old baby's bottle with 125ml of red wine? NO!

So why drink it while pregnant when what you eat and drink is your unborn childs only source of nourishment...

I know not everyone agree's with that but that's my opinion on it.

Also not all doctors or health professional's say a little bit of alcohol does no harm, some actually say

No level of alcohol consumption is considered safe during pregnancy.

That was quoted from a childrens health website.

[Vicky.]

I have my BIIAB certificate having gone on the course about licensing and stuff, and there is nothing at all about serving pregnant women involved in the course (though I do think there SHOULD be some kind of guidelines..) From the managers response, he had never been told to refuse either.

[Z]

I have my BIIAB certificate having gone on the course about licensing and stuff, and there is nothing at all about serving pregnant women involved in the course (though I do think there SHOULD be some kind of guidelines..) From the managers response, he had never been told to refuse either.

But then how often does that happen? I can't imagine there are many pregnant women asking for alcohol. I just can't get my head around people drinking regularly throughout their pregnancy, no matter how little it is or how safe it supposedly is.

[Vicky.]

This is the way I think of the drinking during pregnancy thing.

Would you fill your month old baby's bottle with 125ml of red wine? NO!

So why drink it while pregnant when what you eat and drink is your unborn childs only source of nourishment...

I know not everyone agree's with that but that's my opinion on it.

Also not all doctors or health professional's say a little bit of alcohol does no harm, some actually say



That was quoted from a childrens health website.

Thats not how it works though? The baby gets a tiny percentage of what you have. And it tends to be all of the good stuff too. Which is why you are advised to eat well soyou have some good left for you too..as in a way the baby is like a parasite (sounds awful that mind) and it takes away all of the nutrients, and leaves you with this rubbish

This is apparently how I got anemia..as I didnt know I should have been eating extra iron..and everything I was having went to the baby :laugh:

[Josy]

Thats not how it works though? The baby gets a tiny percentage of what you have. And it tends to be all of the good stuff too. Which is why you are advised to eat well soyou have some good left for you too..as in a way the baby is like a parasite (sounds awful that mind) and it takes away all of the nutrients, and leaves you with this rubbish

This is apparently how I got anemia..as I didnt know I should have been eating extra iron..and everything I was having went to the baby :laugh:

They are still getting some of that alcohol into their systems..I just find that wrong.

[Vicky.]

But then how often does that happen? I can't imagine there are many pregnant women asking for alcohol. I just can't get my head around people drinking regularly throughout their pregnancy, no matter how little it is or how safe it supposedly is.

I would imagine a lot more often than you would think, especially in places that serve food.

When I worked in bars, we used to get pregnant women coming in after a days shop, for a half on their way home. I dont see the problem really :shrug:

As I said earlier though, if those same women had decided to stay for the night and started ordering a load of shots or something, I would have also refused.

I cant find it in me to judge someone for something so small, especially after the hospital advised me to actually drink when in labour :laugh:

[Kizzy]

It would be interesting to find out how 125ml of fluid at 8% ABV is metabolised in the body when taken with food wouldn't it?

[Marc]

This woman has only just brought on un-needed judgement from us on her.

[Kizzy]

This woman has only just brought on un-needed judgement from us on her.

No she hasn't because not everyone is judging her.

[Marc]

No she hasn't because not everyone is judging her.

Yes she has because some have judged her?

[Kizzy]

Yes she has because some have judged her?

Some haven't... that's a debate isn't it?
She has raised awareness, it's a talking point.

[Marc]

Some haven't... that's a debate isn't it?
She has raised awareness, it's a talking point.

Yeah it is. But what I said is right, some of us (people who read this news story) will judge her for drinking whilst being pregnant. As shown by some views expressed in this thread.

[Marc]

]https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/969420_668909393136178_1341355439_n.jpg

Skyes christening :blush2:


:lovedup:

[Kizzy]

Yeah it is. But what I said is right, some of us (people who read this news story) will judge her for drinking whilst being pregnant. As shown by some views expressed in this thread.

Well never mind, we can't all be enlightened. ;)

[Benjamin]

Well never mind, we can't all be enlightened. ;)

And you have the audacity to call me sanctimonious.

[Kizzy]

And you have the audacity to call me sanctimonious.

I was joking ben, stop being so oversensitive ;)

[Marc]

Always with the last word Kizzy

[Benjamin]

I was joking ben, stop being so oversensitive ;)

If I had called you that during a serious debate you would have been outraged. You are a hypocrite sometimes.

[Kizzy]

-something mean- :bawling:

[Benjamin]

No it's not that it's mean Kizzy, I can deal with being called all sorts, usually because I am them, it's the fact you are an absolute hypocrite.

[Novo]

can you two please stop bloody bickering

[MeMyselfAndI]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/fef837ba2bc31e4ea0613c949c1d172d/tumblr_mtetjrimYL1s2yegdo1_400.gif

[Kizzy]

You tell him novo!
Anyway, back to this idiot barman.

[Niamh.]

I don't get why she was so desperate for wine that she went to the media about it, I mean, Jesus, surely she can go without it during pregnancy, just in case. Do people really find it so hard to live without alcohol?

Yeah, tbf I seriously doubt it's because she's so desperate for wine. I would imagine it's the principal of some guy telling her what she can and can't do with her own body. And assuming she was irresponsible and putting her baby in danger when she clearly wasn't. I would be annoyed if I were her too

[Lee.]

My GP told me a small glass of red wine whilst pregnant would do me more good than harm.. I used to really look forward to my Saturday night out.. My friend was preggers the same time as me and we used to go out the four if us and we'd have a glass of wine each.. I'd have been a bit taken aback if the batman had refused to serve us.

[Niamh.]

My GP told me a small glass of red wine whilst pregnant would do me more good than harm.. I used to really look forward to my Saturday night out.. My friend was preggers the same time as me and we used to go out the four if us and we'd have a glass of wine each.. I'd have been a bit taken aback if the batman had refused to serve us.

Well, it would have been extremely embarrassing and humiliating for some stranger to make you feel like you were being irresponsible and harming your unborn child. I think that's what people are missing here, that this woman isn't annoyed because the wine is so important to her, it's because of the way that barman judged her and made her feel so small

[Z]

Well, it would have been extremely embarrassing and humiliating for some stranger to make you feel like you were being irresponsible and harming your unborn child. I think that's what people are missing here, that this woman isn't annoyed because the wine is so important to her, it's because of the way that barman judged her and made her feel so small

By refusing to serve her though? It doesn't say that he lectured her in front of lots of people, he just didn't serve her a glass of wine - she comes across as attention seeking to me by virtue of going to the press over such a minor incident. Kizzy seemed to think I was being patronising when I suggested that the woman is possibly very hormonal, hence having such a reaction to being refused service and going to the media over it... I doubt that's something she would have done normally.

[Niamh.]

By refusing to serve her though? It doesn't say that he lectured her in front of lots of people, he just didn't serve her a glass of wine - she comes across as attention seeking to me by virtue of going to the press over such a minor incident. Kizzy seemed to think I was being patronising when I suggested that the woman is possibly very hormonal, hence having such a reaction to being refused service and going to the media over it... I doubt that's something she would have done normally.

Well, to be honest if I put myself in her position, just the fact that he wouldn't serve her infers that he thinks she's being irresponsible and not looking after her unborn child, which is the worst thing a person could ever say about/imply to a parent/parent to be imo. If it were me I probably wouldn't have brought it to the medias attention although I think I'd be annoyed/offended enough to contact the bars manager.

Could she be feeling more hormonal and prone to be upset more because of her hormones? Absolutely lol I remember crying because I lost a game of cards when i was pregnant with my daughter :laugh:

[Lee.]

I saw your typo Niamh :evilgrin:

[Niamh.]

I saw your typo Niamh :evilgrin:

Nothing to see here, move away http://www.curioustopic.com/images/smilies/unsure.gif

[user104658]

Well, it would have been extremely embarrassing and humiliating for some stranger to make you feel like you were being irresponsible and harming your unborn child. I think that's what people are missing here, that this woman isn't annoyed because the wine is so important to her, it's because of the way that barman judged her and made her feel so small

Yes, so embarrassing in front of a bar full of people that she had to remedy it by telling a national newspaper...

I'd have been a bit taken aback if the batman had refused to serve us.

....hehe...

[Niamh.]

Yes, so embarrassing in front of a bar full of people that she had to remedy it by telling a national newspaper...



....hehe...

Yes, because she felt wronged by him and clearly the bar agree with her and have said it's not their policy to refuse to serve pregnant women. Maybe she felt like she should say it so it doesn't happen again?

[user104658]

Well, to be honest if I put myself in her position, just the fact that he wouldn't serve her infers that he thinks she's being irresponsible and not looking after her unborn child, which is the worst thing a person could ever say about/imply to a parent/parent to be imo. If it were me I probably wouldn't have brought it to the medias attention although I think I'd be annoyed/offended enough to contact the bars manager.


This is the same reasoning that apparently makes it a big "no no" to point out that formula milk is inferior to breastmilk, though. People are afraid to let others know important things that might actually help others to make healthier choices, for fear of "upsetting someone".

Choosing to use formula milk increases the risk of childhood cancer by several degrees, and increases the risk of SIDS by FOUR TIMES. But you're not allowed to mention that, ever, to anyone, for fear that you might make the large proportion of mothers who "find breastfeeding too hard" feel guilty. Oh no. God forbid. Better just bury this important public health information that could potentially save thousands of infants from a needless death, to spare people's feelings. Right?

[Niamh.]

This is the same reasoning that apparently makes it a big "no no" to point out that formula milk is inferior to breastmilk, though. People are afraid to let others know important things that might actually help others to make healthier choices, for fear of "upsetting someone".

Choosing to use formula milk increases the risk of childhood cancer by several degrees, and increases the risk of SIDS by FOUR TIMES. But you're not allowed to mention that, ever, to anyone, for fear that you might make the large proportion of mothers who "find breastfeeding too hard" feel guilty. Oh no. God forbid. Better just bury this important public health information that could potentially save thousands of infants from a needless death, to spare people's feelings. Right?

Oh for Gods sake, I'm really not getting into a breast Milk V's Formula Milk argument.

[user104658]

Oh for Gods sake, I'm really not getting into a breast Milk V's Formula Milk argument.

I'm not looking for one, just illustrating a point: a childs health (born or unborn) is more important than its parents (or any other persons) feelings of guilt or embarrassment. parents are surely, by necessity, adults. I don't give two hoots if they "feel bad :(" - they can bloody well act like adults and get over it.

[Niamh.]

I'm not looking for one, just illustrating a point: a childs health (born or unborn) is more important than its parents (or any other persons) feelings of guilt or embarrassment. parents are surely, by necessity, adults. I don't give two hoots if they "feel bad :(" - they can bloody well act like adults and get over it.

The point is one glass of wine a week is not going to harm your baby and that stranger had no right to refuse to serve that lady.

[Lee.]

I drank wine when I was pregnant, I chose not to breastfeed... I demanded to be pumped full of drugs during labour, I even ate barbecued food every week :eek:
I don't feel any guilt or embarrassment whatsoever.. They're all MY decisions and I have two beautiful healthy and well looked after kids :)

[Lee.]

The point is one glass of wine a week is not going to harm your baby and that stranger had no right to refuse to serve that lady.

Debate over tbh

[user104658]

The point is one glass of wine a week is not going to harm your baby and that stranger had no right to refuse to serve that lady.

It's PROBABLY not going to harm the baby, I have no idea where this certainty comes from, there is NO way to be 100% sure that it won't.

He also had every "right" to choose to do whatever he wanted to do. You might not like him for it, his boss might not like it and might fire him, but that doesn't equate to him having "no right". He is not a slave and is entitled to not take part in anything - anything at all - that he isn't comfortable with. As are we all.

[Vicky.]

I drank wine when I was pregnant, I chose not to breastfeed... I demanded to be pumped full of drugs during labour, I even ate barbecued food every week :eek:
I don't feel any guilt or embarrassment whatsoever.. They're all MY decisions and I have two beautiful healthy and well looked after kids :)

Sounds familiar. I was all 'ah I will do it with no drugs, better for baby'...until it happened :joker:

Oddly enough, it was always male doctors that I saw that pushed the no drugs angle. My MW and my consultant said basically that you get no extra for doing it drug free..so take what you need, or something like that.

[Niamh.]

It's PROBABLY not going to harm the baby, I have no idea where this certainty comes from, there is NO way to be 100% sure that it won't.

He also had every "right" to choose to do whatever he wanted to do. You might not like him for it, his boss might not like it and might fire him, but that doesn't equate to him having "no right". He is not a slave and is entitled to not take part in anything - anything at all - that he isn't comfortable with. As are we all.


No he didn't have every right at all, what if he didn't like black people would it be "his right" to not serve them? No, it wouldn't.

[Niamh.]

Sounds familiar. I was all 'ah I will do it with no drugs, better for baby'...until it happened :joker:

Oddly enough, it was always male doctors that I saw that pushed the no drugs angle. My MW and my consultant said basically that you get no extra for doing it drug free..so take what you need, or something like that.

hahaha, typical

[user104658]

I drank wine when I was pregnant, I chose not to breastfeed... I demanded to be pumped full of drugs during labour, I even ate barbecued food every week :eek:
I don't feel any guilt or embarrassment whatsoever.. They're all MY decisions and I have two beautiful healthy and well looked after kids :)

That's great. No one was asking you to justify yourself. As someone who is comfortable with her choices, you should have no problem with others pointing out the facts.

No one has a problem with you making your own decisions for your family. What I have a problem with, is people who want the facts buried because it "makes them feel bad" to hear it.

Or in this case, a mardy cow who has decided to set out to demonize a young barman because he "dared" to try to do something good and embarrassed her in the process. Whether or not he was right about alcohol being harmful, he was TRYING to do the right thing by this woman's baby. What an arsehole, eh? String him up! He's probably a serial embarrasser. He's done it before, and he'll no doubt do it again!

[user104658]

No he didn't have every right at all, what if he didn't like black people would it be "his right" to not serve them? No, it wouldn't.

It would make him a detestable racist, I personally would dislike him for it, and he would probably lose his job.

That's still his decision.

Its also not compatible to this situation, really. Unless he genuinely held the belief that alcohol was toxic to black people, and was trying to spare their health.

[Z]

That's great. No one was asking you to justify yourself. As someone who is comfortable with her choices, you should have no problem with others pointing out the facts.

No one has a problem with you making your own decisions for your family. What I have a problem with, is people who want the facts buried because it "makes them feel bad" to hear it.

Or in this case, a mardy cow who has decided to set out to demonize a young barman because he "dared" to try to do something good and embarrassed her in the process. Whether or not he was right about alcohol being harmful, he was TRYING to do the right thing by this woman's baby. What an arsehole, eh? String him up! He's probably a serial embarrasser. He's done it before, and he'll no doubt do it again!

Exactly. He wasn't doing it to upset her, he was doing it because he thought it was the right thing to do, regardless of his company's policy. Would you jump off a cliff because your employer told you to? No. Truth be told I doubt they even have a policy for this kind of thing because as I said before, I can't imagine it's all too common for visibly pregnant women to be ordering wine.

[user104658]

Exactly. He wasn't doing it to upset her, he was doing it because he thought it was the right thing to do, regardless of his company's policy. Would you jump off a cliff because your employer told you to? No. Truth be told I doubt they even have a policy for this kind of thing because as I said before, I can't imagine it's all too common for visibly pregnant women to be ordering wine.

All he really did do wrong was in claiming that it was company policy rather than just quietly telling her that he was uncomfortable with it. If he had done that she could have been mature about it - and either explained the guidelines on alcohol in pregnancy to him so that he would know more in future, because he clearly didn't know, or laughed it off and asked someone else to serve her. Instead of huffing off to her friends and the papers. It really is immature, peoples egos are far too fragile.

But yeah... Having worked in several sections of customer service (including a bar) I will say that using the "company policy" excuse, when it isn't, is a pretty big no-no.

[Vicky.]

He never claimed it was company policy. He said he didnt want it on his conscience

Was the manager in their apology who came out with the ridiculous notion of him thinking it was the licensing law :joker:

[user104658]

He never claimed it was company policy. He said he didnt want it on his conscience

Was the manager in their apology who came out with the ridiculous notion of him thinking it was the licensing law :joker:

To be fair, I imagine he probably did use that as an excuse to his manager.

Saying he didn't want it on his conscience does have a bit of a moral judgement involved I suppose, definitely bad phrasing. But I stand by saying that he was well within his rights to quietly and politely say that he wasn't comfortable with it. Like I said, she could have amicably explained that a small amount is considered fine and he might have been fine with that.

but I can just picture the scene... She will have been instantly "outraged" and stormed off. It's all about ego. Really irks me.

[arista]

He never claimed it was company policy. He said he didnt want it on his conscience

Was the manager in their apology who came out with the ridiculous notion of him thinking it was the licensing law :joker:



its a Blip.



Matt Wright on Ch5HD
said the Barman was right
this morning

[Nedusa]

Why didn't he just get someone else to serve her as he was clearly not comfortable with being asked to be a party to potentially harming a new born life.

This is such an unusual situation as most heavily pregnant women would not drink alcohol and would certainly not order it in a pub in front of many customers as she would surely be told off by somebody and end up in an argument.

Strange lady !!! was she just being bloody minded and trying to prove a point....???

[Jesus.]

It's really simple. He had no right to refuse service to her because of the reason he gave, and people shouldn't be supporting him in it either.

What about personal liberty and freedom?

She wasn't hanging off the bar snorting coke, and banging slammers. Citizens don't get the right to start dictating what other citizens should be able to do.

[user104658]

It's really simple. He had no right to refuse service to her because of the reason he gave, and people shouldn't be supporting him in it either.

What about personal liberty and freedom?

She wasn't hanging off the bar snorting coke, and banging slammers. Citizens don't get the right to start dictating what other citizens should be able to do.

This is a contradiction in itself. You ttalk about liberty and freedom, yet claim he has neither the liberty nor the freedom to refuse to do something that he doesnt want to do.

You say "citizens don't get the right to start dictating what other citizens should be able to do" whilst in the same breath dictating what a citizen (the barman) should have to do.

Its not about him dictating whether or not she should be able to pour herself a drink and consume it. It's about him saying that HE will not pour the drink for her.

If you truly believe in individual freedoms and liberty, then surely you can't honestly believe he should feel obliged or forced to do something that he doesn't want to do? This flies completely in the face of freedom?

He is not stopping her from having a drink, he is simply refusing to participate in the act. It's well within his individual rights.

[user104658]

was she just being bloody minded and trying to prove a point....???

Almost certainly. It obviously wasn't about embarrassment as she chose to announce it to the world. It was about the fact that some "lowly barman" dared to not do as he was told. A prideful person who couldn't take the dent to her ego without kicking off. That's the world we live in these days, unfortunately. The issue was between her and the barman and she would have been well within her rights to have it out with him, or better still, just calmly discuss the issue with him. But no, she stropped off blubbing to the media, and no doubt tried to get him fired. It's ridiculous.

[Niamh.]

Almost certainly. It obviously wasn't about embarrassment as she chose to announce it to the world. It was about the fact that some "lowly barman" dared to not do as he was told. A prideful person who couldn't take the dent to her ego without kicking off. That's the world we live in these days, unfortunately. The issue was between her and the barman and she would have been well within her rights to have it out with him, or better still, just calmly discuss the issue with him. But no, she stropped off blubbing to the media, and no doubt tried to get him fired. It's ridiculous.

You're making alot of assumptions there on what she did and didn't think tbf. Lowly Barman, really? Come on, how on Earth did you decide that's what she was thinking?

[Jesus.]

This is a contradiction in itself. You ttalk about liberty and freedom, yet claim he has neither the liberty nor the freedom to refuse to do something that he doesnt want to do.

You say "citizens don't get the right to start dictating what other citizens should be able to do" whilst in the same breath dictating what a citizen (the barman) should have to do.

Its not about him dictating whether or not she should be able to pour herself a drink and consume it. It's about him saying that HE will not pour the drink for her.

If you truly believe in individual freedoms and liberty, then surely you can't honestly believe he should feel obliged or forced to do something that he doesn't want to do? This flies completely in the face of freedom?

He is not stopping her from having a drink, he is simply refusing to participate in the act. It's well within his individual rights.


You misunderstand what liberty and personal freedom actually are. The civil rights act in America actually abolished the the policy of allowing businesses to choose their clients based on superficial reasons. Civil liberties, and the issues of people employed to provide a service are completely different things. If he had such a problem with it, then his freedoms and liberties enable him to resign from his post and find a new job. No one is restricting his freedom.

But he tried to dictate that his morals are more important than anyone else's. That is the opposite of freedom.

[Kizzy]

By refusing to serve her though? It doesn't say that he lectured her in front of lots of people, he just didn't serve her a glass of wine - she comes across as attention seeking to me by virtue of going to the press over such a minor incident. Kizzy seemed to think I was being patronising when I suggested that the woman is possibly very hormonal, hence having such a reaction to being refused service and going to the media over it... I doubt that's something she would have done normally.

Hold the phone......
I did not think you were being patronising zee, I did post a smiley face... does nobody understand the significance of a smiley face anymore?
I knew you had the wrong end of the stick the other day, when I mentioned 'ignorant and uneducated views' I meant the barman too, not you.
I did say ben was sanctamonious and said sorry, I'm not doing it again it's a once in a lifetime
offer :D
As MTVN said there was a similar case in the news concerning staff and their personal opinion, the consensus then was if you can't do the job you are paid to do....leave.

[user104658]

You misunderstand what liberty and personal freedom actually are. The civil rights act in America actually abolished the the policy of allowing businesses to choose their clients based on superficial reasons. Civil liberties, and the issues of people employed to provide a service are completely different things. If he had such a problem with it, then his freedoms and liberties enable him to resign from his post and find a new job. No one is restricting his freedom.

But he tried to dictate that his morals are more important than anyone else's. That is the opposite of freedom.

Again, I disagree, he didn't attempt to impose his morals by stopping her from doing what she wanted, he simply refused to be involved in the action. Had he walked over to the woman and taken a glass from her hand, that would be a different issue.

Also - strange as it may seem - I tend not to base my concepts of morality on the technicalities of the United States legal system.

[Z]

Hold the phone......
I did not think you were being patronising zee, I did post a smiley face... does nobody understand the significance of a smiley face anymore?
I knew you had the wrong end of the stick the other day, when I mentioned 'ignorant and uneducated views' I meant the barman too, not you.
I did say ben was sanctamonious and said sorry, I'm not doing it again it's a once in a lifetime
offer :D
As MTVN said there was a similar case in the news concerning staff and their personal opinion, the consensus then was if you can't do the job you are paid to do....leave.

My bad! :blush2: Sorry! :hug:

[Kizzy]

:hug:

[Mystic Mock]

I agree with the barman, it's general knowledge that pregnant women shouldn't be smoking or drinking. Only a pregnant woman is going to know that it's okay to have a small glass of wine every now and then (I didn't know that until I read this) and seeing as she's nine months pregnant it's not like the barman could ignore the fact she was pregnant. I would have done the exact same thing - I wouldn't want to be knowingly giving alcohol to a pregnant woman - how am I supposed to know this is her one and only drink of the week and that it's not damaging to an unborn child? I've heard of foetal alcohol syndrome, I haven't heard her wisdom that it's fine for a baby every now and then...

Basically think she's being massively hysterical over something that she must know that most people have been taught that smoking and drinking are bad for unborn children. Have your glass of wine at home. You're nearly about to give birth, I'm sure you can go another week or two without having wine in a bar/restaurant.

This.

[GiRTh]

Romantic Old Bird worked in this area and had a few forthright views on the subject . According to her, if my memory serves, even one glass is too many. Again she reinforced the point by telling us what a baby whos mother drank actually looked like. I remember she said they had wide eyes and looked permanently tired. I'd go with the experts on this one. Even though it was out of the barmans job to refuse her service I totally applaud that he did.

[Jesus.]

Again, I disagree, he didn't attempt to impose his morals by stopping her from doing what she wanted, he simply refused to be involved in the action. Had he walked over to the woman and taken a glass from her hand, that would be a different issue.

Also - strange as it may seem - I tend not to base my concepts of morality on the technicalities of the United States legal system.

Of course he was imposing his morals. It's not his decision to make, and he has no right to do it.

I gave that civil rights example as a way of making it really simple to understand the difference between being employed to provide a service, and having your own civil rights. But you already knew that.

[Tregard]

You misunderstand what liberty and personal freedom actually are. The civil rights act in America actually abolished the the policy of allowing businesses to choose their clients based on superficial reasons.

I'd hardly call pregnancy a superficial reason.

[user104658]

Of course he was imposing his morals. It's not his decision to make, and he has no right to do it.

I gave that civil rights example as a way of making it really simple to understand the difference between being employed to provide a service, and having your own civil rights. But you already knew that.

I suppose then it depends on whether you're talking about civil rights, legal rights or moral rights. I personally was talking about moral rights and, as far as that goes, he had every right to do whatever he wanted to do. In fact, key here is that he didn't "do" anything - he simply refused to do something. And in my opinion, every person has the right to refuse to be involved in anything that they are not comfortable being involved in. As I said, had he grabbed a drink out of her hand - that would be imposing his morals. Refusing to PROVIDE her with a drink is simply refusing to compromise his own morals.

Whether or not his boss would / should / must fire him for his actions is completely irrelevant to that fact. It's his choice to do what he wants with his mind and body: he didnt want to pour her the drink so he absolutely did not have to. Risking his job is his decision to make.

[Jesus.]

I suppose then it depends on whether you're talking about civil rights, legal rights or moral rights. I personally was talking about moral rights and, as far as that goes, he had every right to do whatever he wanted to do. In fact, key here is that he didn't "do" anything - he simply refused to do something. And in my opinion, every person has the right to refuse to be involved in anything that they are not comfortable being involved in. As I said, had he grabbed a drink out of her hand - that would be imposing his morals. Refusing to PROVIDE her with a drink is simply refusing to compromise his own morals.

Whether or not his boss would / should / must fire him for his actions is completely irrelevant to that fact. It's his choice to do what he wants with his mind and body: he didnt want to pour her the drink so he absolutely did not have to. Risking his job is his decision to make.

His moral stance (which he is entitled to hold, but not enforce) is irrelevant. If his morals are that important to him, then he shouldn't be working in a place where those things can cross paths.

Doctors have to stand by constantly and let people kill themselves because of the wishes of individual patients, and sometimes because of ridiculous reasons like the blood transfusion issues with Jehovah's witnesses. These are people that dedicate their lives to the oath they make. Yet their moral stances don't overrule the wishes of the individual.

He absolutely has every right to feel uncomfortable about serving a pregnant woman, he has absolutely no right to act upon that.

[Livia]

If a barman refused to serve someone who was already drunk, is that an example of imposing his morals on someone else? After all, if someone who's drunk wants to keep on drinking, surely that's his or her own choice? Or is the barman within his rights to use his judgement as an adult who's job it is to serve a restricted substance?

[Vicky.]

If a barman refused to serve someone who was already drunk, is that an example of imposing his morals on someone else? After all, if someone who's drunk wants to keep on drinking, surely that's his or her own choice? Or is the barman within his rights to use his judgement as an adult who's job it is to serve a restricted substance?

No, thats an example of him following the law and doing his job right. There are no laws against serving pregnant women.

[Kizzy]

Here we go again... :laugh:

[user104658]

His moral stance (which he is entitled to hold, but not enforce) is irrelevant. If his morals are that important to him, then he shouldn't be working in a place where those things can cross paths.

That decision lies with his employer, who I have said, is well within his rights to dismiss this employee if he deems appropriate.

Doctors have to stand by constantly and let people kill themselves because of the wishes of individual patients, and sometimes because of ridiculous reasons like the blood transfusion issues with Jehovah's witnesses. These are people that dedicate their lives to the oath they make. Yet their moral stances don't overrule the wishes of the individual.


In this case, the doctor has to comply with their wishes by NOT acting; by not forcing an action upon them. A doctor would not, for example, obliged to euthanize someone (in countries where this is legal) if they don't want to perform that action. Another doctor would do it.


He absolutely has every right to feel uncomfortable about serving a pregnant woman, he has absolutely no right to act upon that.

For the third or fourth time; he did not act upon anything, he explicitly did the opposite; he did not DO something against her wishes, he REFUSED to do something that she wished. There is a very clear distinction between those that you seem to be habitually overlooking or ignoring.

[Cherie]

Been an interesting one this. I would hazard a guess that some of the people coming down on the barmans side would uphold a woman's right to abortion on the grounds that it is her decision and her body, so why this is any different really puzzles me.

[Niamh.]

Been an interesting one this. I would hazard a guess that some of the people coming down on the barmans side would uphold a woman's right to abortion on the grounds that it is her decision and her body, so why this is any different really puzzles me.

lol that very point did cross my mind as well

[Ammi]

Been an interesting one this. I would hazard a guess that some of the people coming down on the barmans side would uphold a woman's right to abortion on the grounds that it is her decision and her body, so why this is any different really puzzles me.

..I'm not questioning his decision not to serve her on any moral grounds though Cherie or her choice to drink alcohol..just that he had a right to refuse anyone on any grounds because I think all bars and private establishments reserve that right...maybe someone would refuse to give a woman an abortion that she wanted, I guess that would be a more similar analogy for me...

[Jesus.]

That decision lies with his employer, who I have said, is well within his rights to dismiss this employee if he deems appropriate.

So exactly what are the responsibilities of a barman, employed by a bar to provide services to paying customers?


In this case, the doctor has to comply with their wishes by NOT acting; by not forcing an action upon them. A doctor would not, for example, obliged to euthanize someone (in countries where this is legal) if they don't want to perform that action. Another doctor would do it.

He adheres to the wishes of the patient. Exactly. His moral opinions neither have nor hold any sway in this instance.


For the third or fourth time; he did not act upon anything, he explicitly did the opposite; he did not DO something against her wishes, he REFUSED to do something that she wished. There is a very clear distinction between those that you seem to be habitually overlooking or ignoring.

I really have no idea how you can view "refusing" to provide a service for which he is employed and paid, as a different issue from my point. His job is to provide drinks to customers, so by refusing to do his job, he is automatically acting. It's quite basic.

[Nedusa]

lol that very point did cross my mind as well

I agree that it is the womens moral right to drink while pregnant and her moral right to have an abortion is she wishes (as it is her body) , but it is also the Barman's moral right not to serve her if he so wishes.

By not serving her he has not changed her moral right to drink whilst pregnant she is quite capable of opening a bottle of whisky herself if she so wishes.

However the Barman simply decided not to DO something he objected to, he did not pyhsically interact with the woman by stopping her drinking as that would have been an infringement on her moral rights (and assault).

His inaction may cause him to lose his job but that is his decision as he must know the Bar will expect him to serve this lady as there are no laws currently forbidding pregnant woman being served in Pubs.

I think he his course of in(action) was acceptable by his moral standards and as I have said in an earlier thread he could have simply asked another member of the bar staff to serve her.

[Livia]

No, thats an example of him following the law and doing his job right. There are no laws against serving pregnant women.

No, there aren't any laws against serving alcohol to pregnant women. Usually you'd think that pregnant women were smart enough not to drink alcohol... apparently not though. I'm sure there used to be this kind of tolerance of women smoking cigarettes while pregnant.

I wouldn't have served her. I wouldn't have stopped someone else serving her, but I myself would not have served alcohol to a pregnant women any more than I'd have served it to a child.

[Niamh.]

No, there aren't any laws against serving alcohol to pregnant women. Usually you'd think that pregnant women were smart enough not to drink alcohol... apparently not though. I'm sure there used to be this kind of tolerance of women smoking cigarettes while pregnant.

I wouldn't have served her. I wouldn't have stopped someone else serving her, but I myself would not have served alcohol to a pregnant women any more than I'd have served it to a child.

Looks like me, Vicky and Lee are all too stupid to have kids then

[Vicky.]

No, there aren't any laws against serving alcohol to pregnant women. Usually you'd think that pregnant women were smart enough not to drink alcohol... apparently not though. I'm sure there used to be this kind of tolerance of women smoking cigarettes while pregnant.

I wouldn't have served her. I wouldn't have stopped someone else serving her, but I myself would not have served alcohol to a pregnant women any more than I'd have served it to a child.

Considering there is no evidence to say that having one or two drinks a week harms your baby, I think this is a bit harsh.

As I said earlier, some midwives recommend you drink guinness, you are told that a glass or two of wine is fine, just not over 2 units.. and the hospital advised me to have a glass of wine to relax when actually in labor (and on codeine tht THEY gave me)

Personally I would serve (and have served in the past) pregnant women with the odd drink. I have only ever come across one woman who was actually out on the piss when heavily pregnant. She was drunk when she came in, so I refused her on the grounds of being drunk (though in my head it was because she was pregnant AND drunk..) I guess I did judge her..but I see a huge difference between refusing someone who is pregnant as they ARE being stupid, and refusing someone one glass of wine when sober.

[Jesus.]

Looks like me, Vicky and Lee are all too stupid to have kids then

I could have told you that.

[Niamh.]

I could have told you that.

:hmph:

[Livia]

Considering there is no evidence to say that having one or two drinks a week harms your baby, I think this is a bit harsh.

As I said earlier, some midwives recommend you drink guinness, you are told that a glass or two of wine is fine, just not over 2 units.. and the hospital advised me to have a glass of wine to relax when actually in labor (and on codeine tht THEY gave me)

Personally I would serve (and have served in the past) pregnant women with the odd drink. I have only ever come across one woman who was actually out on the piss when heavily pregnant. She was drunk when she came in, so I refused her on the grounds of being drunk (though in my head it was because she was pregnant AND drunk..) I guess I did judge her..but I see a huge difference between refusing someone who is pregnant as they ARE being stupid, and refusing someone one glass of wine when sober.


Maybe it is harsh, but it's the way I feel. The woman had a right to put alcohol into her system; the barman had the right to refuse to aid and abet her to do that. With respect, Midwives used to say it was okay to smoke and to take all kinds of non-prescription drugs. It's only a generation or so since Thalidomide... If it was me, I'd prefer not to put any kind of substance into my body while I was pregnant, and that would be my choice. What surprises me most is that this woman, with her massive sense of entitlement, has made a crusade out of this. And we've only heard one side of the story too, which is always a little, erm... embroidered. We have an arse-kissing statement from the bar, blaming the barman and apologsing unreservedly for this incident, but not a word from the barman himself who, using the bar's own policy, reserved his right to refuse.

[user104658]

So exactly what are the responsibilities of a barman, employed by a bar to provide services to paying customers?




He adheres to the wishes of the patient. Exactly. His moral opinions neither have nor hold any sway in this instance.




I really have no idea how you can view "refusing" to provide a service for which he is employed and paid, as a different issue from my point. His job is to provide drinks to customers, so by refusing to do his job, he is automatically acting. It's quite basic.

Responsibilities are not the same thing as rights or even vaguely related? I must have said at least 10 times, if the bar thinks he isn't fulfilling his role, they are free to dismiss him. It is his right to choose to not "do his job properly" and face the consequences of that, if he feels unable to do what has been asked of him.

Also, I would point out that doctors DO refuse requested care at times, if they disagree with it, on various grounds. They would refer the patient to a colleague. Someone else could have served her.

[Jesus.]

Responsibilities are not the same thing as rights or even vaguely related? I must have said at least 10 times, if the bar thinks he isn't fulfilling his role, they are free to dismiss him. It is his right to choose to not "do his job properly" and face the consequences of that, if he feels unable to do what has been asked of him.

Also, I would point out that doctors DO refuse requested care at times, if they disagree with it, on various grounds. They would refer the patient to a colleague. Someone else could have served her.


We have a fundamental but sincere disagreement. I view that he had no right to make decisions about her or her "condition".

You view that he can, but the employer can take action afterwards.

So did he provide the woman with an alternative bar tender? No, he refused to serve her and offered her no alternative.

Also, Doctors don't refuse care on moral grounds.

I'd also suggest that we agree to disagree here. Reply to this post if you see fit, but we're both going to go round in circles.

[Vicky.]

We have a fundamental but sincere disagreement. I view that he had no right to make decisions about her or her "condition".

You view that he can, but the employer can take action afterwards.

So did he provide the woman with an alternative bar tender? No, he refused to serve her and offered her no alternative.

Also, Doctors don't refuse care on moral grounds.

TBF there may have been no alternative bartender. 9 times out of 10 when I was at work, there was just me. What a right hassle when I needed to change a barrel or something :joker:

[Kizzy]

He was not using the bars own policy, nowhere does it suggest it is.
There is no justification for trying to impose your will on others, no matter if you try to dress it up as a moral or ethical issue.

[Jesus.]

TBF there may have been no alternative bartender. 9 times out of 10 when I was at work, there was just me. What a right hassle when I needed to change a barrel or something :joker:

What kind of place did you work in? If I was taking my pregnant wife/gf out to eat, it would have to be a fairly decent place for me to take her to a pub. In nice gastro pubs you get more than one person on duty (generally).

[DanaC]

As soon as a woman becomes pregnant total strangers feel they have some moral right to dictate how she conducts herself during that pregnancy.

Fathers to be smoking whilst their wives are pregnant also present a possible health risk to babies but nobody would go up to a man and ask him to stop smoking next to his pregnant partner. Yet strangers do go up to pregnant women and give them a piece of their mind if they see them smoking.