Gender Segregation at UK Universitys - PM has said No

[arista]

Gender segregation is 'not completely alien to our culture',
says Universities UK chief


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02762/Protest_2762043b.jpg


We are now going Crazy




"The row over segregation has sparked
protests from students and shadow
business secretary Chuka Umunna
said he was ''horrified'' by
Universities UK's position.
In November a Universities
UK report report presented some
hypothetical case studies which
come up on campuses, including whether
a speaker from an ultra-orthodox
religious group requests an audience
is segregated by gender. "


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10512882/Gender-segregation-is-not-completely-alien-to-our-culture-says-Universities-UK-chief.html

[fingers]

This country is going bloody bonkers!

[arista]

This country is going bloody bonkers!


It does not help
with the boss of a Uni
who agrees with it.

[Nedusa]

Welcome to Great Britanistan.....!!!!

[user104658]

Voluntary segregation is not apartheid; this would only come into play where guest speakers have requested it and University is not school... attendance of these sorts of events is purely optional. It's self-guided study - you go along if it interests you. If you don't like the guest speaker's seating plan, then don't attend his speaking event. If no one attends his event, then he will not be booked to speak again. Simple as that, really.

Essentially, there are only two reasons that someone would be attending such an event. The first being that they feel like they will identify with or agree with the speaker, the second is for purely educational purposes. If the latter, first hand experience of such segregation in action is a valuable learning experience in itself - you are in a stronger position to argue against something if you have actually experienced it.


If this starts being suggested or enforced in day-to-day lectures or seminars, then we have a problem. As it stands, it would be more restrictive of social freedoms to expressly disallow a speaker at an optional event to put a seating plan in place than it would be to say;

It's their event, they can run it how they want to, and you are free to do what you want with that. You could refuse to attend, you could stage a demonstration outside the lecture theatre itself at the time, you could attend the lecture and speak up...

THAT is what a University education is about. Not moaning and whining and asking the "people in charge" to "ban stuff".

[Livia]

Every event should be open to everyone, always. If someone can be turned away at the door purely because they're the wrong sex - be them male or female - then it's wrong.

[smudgie]

Isn't it all just hypothetical so far?

[Jordan.]

Let's extend Salmans ban

[user104658]

Every event should be open to everyone, always. If someone can be turned away at the door purely because they're the wrong sex - be them male or female - then it's wrong.

Did you read the article? It's about segregation not exclusion; e.g. females on the lefthand side of the theatre, males on the right. People being turned away isn't mentioned at all. In fact, it's specifically mentioned that there would be issues if there was to be a notion of advantage (e.g. males at the front and therefore more visible to engage in debate).

Where does it end, otherwise? Who decides where and when it's appropriate to divide a room? In several psychology classes I attended, the classes were asked to sit in various places, for reasons that didn't become clear until towards the end of the hour. And yes, this included male / female divides, but also by age group, clothing colours, etc.

Would this be "banned", too?

I can easily foresee a scenario where a guest lecturer might segregate a lecture hall specifically to later in the lesson make a point about gender segregation in religion (or society in general).

But my main point is, even where it IS a speaker who genuinely wants to segregate, University is a time for finding your voice and having your say. If you don't like his message, you bloody well go along and tell him so... you don't go whining to the "teachers / authorities" like a 12 year old to get them to "ban it". You stand on your own two feet like an adult and state your point.

[arista]

Isn't it all just hypothetical so far?


No in London its now doing that
due to Muslims

[arista]

Every event should be open to everyone, always. If someone can be turned away at the door purely because they're the wrong sex - be them male or female - then it's wrong.


Bang on Right Livia

[michael21]

It does not help
with the boss of a Uni
who agrees with it.

time for new Uni boss

[Marsh.]

So, they're coming into our country and demanding we adopt to their rules?

Yet whinge when we question their own personal codes of conduct?

I don't wish to sound racist at all, but either deal with it or bloody go home.

[MTVN]

What do Muslims even have to do with this? Nowhere are they or Islam mentioned in the article, they raise the hypothetical situation that there be "a speaker from an ultra-orthodox religious group request an audience is segregated by gender" but why would that be exclusive to Islam, to me it seems to be referring more to ultra-orthodox Judaism if anything

[arista]

What do Muslims even have to do with this? Nowhere are they or Islam mentioned in the article, they raise the hypothetical situation that there be "a speaker from an ultra-orthodox religious group request an audience is segregated by gender" but why would that be exclusive to Islam, to me it seems to be referring more to ultra-orthodox Judaism if anything


It may be to do with the Muslim Funders of that University


There was a Angry Debate on Ch4News , a day ago

[user104658]

What do Muslims even have to do with this? Nowhere are they or Islam mentioned in the article

It's fairly evident that pretty much no one commenting on this thread read the article... given that you're right, there's no mention of Muslims at all, and also, it also doesn't say anything anywhere about anyone not being allowed into lectures.

[arista]

The Muslim was on the Ch4 news Angry Debate

[Kazanne]

So, they're coming into our country and demanding we adopt to their rules?

Yet whinge when we question their own personal codes of conduct?

I don't wish to sound racist at all, but either deal with it or bloody go home.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n33/johndoc37/applause.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/johndoc37/media/applause.gif.html)

[user104658]

The Muslim was on the Ch4 news Angry Debate

Not THE Muslim, surely?

[arista]

http://www.channel4.com/news/universities-uk-uuk-gender-segregation-demo-protest

2 Video reports

Go to the 2nd Video one down
Studio Angry Debate
with the lady from the independent


"There is a fear of offending the Muslim community but there are a lot of modern Muslims that would never allow gender segregation."

[user104658]

http://www.channel4.com/news/universities-uk-uuk-gender-segregation-demo-protest

2 Video reports

Go to the 2nd Video one down
Studio Angry Debate
with the lady and the independent


"There is a fear of offending the Muslim community but there are a lot of modern Muslims that would never allow gender segregation."

"the organisation published a report last month saying universities could segregate by gender during talks from external speakers."

These are optional, anyone who doesn't want anything to do with this doesn't have to go. There is no aspect of force here, this is not apartheid, this is a complete non-issue. But of course, people will take any excuse to break out the war drums... especially thoughtless feminists (there is some wisdom in some feminism - there are also a lot of people involved just because they like to have something to be annoyed about :sleep: ) and xenophobes. This "debate" appeals to both, I guess.

Like I said - if they start allowing this to be implemented by University staff in standard course lectures or somehow across the board, then there is obviously a massive problem. Allowing it to be requested by a small number of super-religious guest speakers whose lectures are attended completely out of personal interest? It just isn't an issue. The alternative is probably that these hyper-religious nutjobs won't come to speak at the University at all, which would be a shame, because a lecture like this would be very ACADEMICALLY INTERESTING to anyone studying theology.

But screw academia, right? Who cares if there's something interesting to be observed or an opportunity for a cultural issue to be examined up close. People are offended :bawling:. Call the police immediately, and immigration. Send these curry-smelling foreign johnnies back, eh?

[GiRTh]

What do Muslims even have to do with this? Nowhere are they or Islam mentioned in the article, they raise the hypothetical situation that there be "a speaker from an ultra-orthodox religious group request an audience is segregated by gender" but why would that be exclusive to Islam, to me it seems to be referring more to ultra-orthodox Judaism if anythingthis.

As usual, articles like this have had the desired effect and people are posting the usual outrage, yet it doesn't even mention Islam in the article. I think thats very interesting.

[Livia]

"In November a Universities UK report presented some hypothetical case studies which come up on campuses, including whether a speaker from an ultra-orthodox religious group requests an audience is segregated by gender.

The report states that university officials must consider both freedom of speech obligations and discrimination and equality laws when considering such a request."

How many other religions apart from Islam are vociferous in requesting the segregation of sexes? I kind of resent the "racist" and "xenophobe" comments when it's clear that the students are against the segregation of the sexes for any reason, including segregation on religious grounds.

[Livia]

What do Muslims even have to do with this? Nowhere are they or Islam mentioned in the article, they raise the hypothetical situation that there be "a speaker from an ultra-orthodox religious group request an audience is segregated by gender" but why would that be exclusive to Islam, to me it seems to be referring more to ultra-orthodox Judaism if anything

I can't remember ever being asked to sit somewhere specific because I'm a female Jew. And if I was, I would be JUST as much against it as I would be if a Muslim woman was asked the same thing.

I can't see how a comparison can be drawn between Judaism in the UK and Islam in the UK, because there is no correlation at all.

[Nedusa]

No Segregation by Gender or Race or Religion or age or skin colour.... we have moved on from that **** !!!

We must not allow our accepted norms be changed because some minority group would prefer it that way.

No No No.......this is the slippery slope next thing all our women folk will have to wear headscarves and then veils and then the full Tent.

[user104658]

No Segregation by Gender or Race or Religion or age or skin colour.... we have moved on from that **** !!!

We must not allow our accepted norms be changed because some minority group would prefer it that way.

No No No.......this is the slippery slope next thing all our women folk will have to wear headscarves and then veils and then the full Tent.


Have we? Are the masonic lodges present in every town in the UK accepting female members all of a sudden? Hmmm... no, they're not. But no one makes a huge fuss because these organisations are private members clubs, attending one is a choice, and those who disagree with their outdated values simply don't go.

This is absolutely no different. Other than it being about nasty, scary, hairy Muslims instead of old white men. Think about the Masonic order for a minute. Did you get as angry about that as you are about this? No? Now consider why that might be?

Again, this is about guest speakers - not standard University course lectures - and attending these lectures is completely optional. It is not segregation in a public setting. It is clearly not some sort of imminent threat to our culture. It's getting zealots in to speak when they otherwise simply wouldn't come, because hearing them speak is academically interesting, and just blustering "WELL THEY JUST SHOULDN'T COME THEN BLAAARGH" is limiting to a University. You don't have to agree with a speaker to be interested in attending something like this. You can attend to debate against them. And the ability to do that is more important than refusing to allow the event to take place in the first place. Failure to realise this is and blustering in with butthurt placards is, frankly, unacademic and has no real place in any discussion over how a University is run. I will be horrified if these Universities bow to pressure and allow the assembled masses to dictate their policies.

[MTVN]

I can't remember ever being asked to sit somewhere specific because I'm a female Jew. And if I was, I would be JUST as much against it as I would be if a Muslim woman was asked the same thing.

I can't see how a comparison can be drawn between Judaism in the UK and Islam in the UK, because there is no correlation at all.

I was specifically referring to the part of the article that talks about people of "ultra orthodox faith". That phrase 'ultra orthodox' is mostly used to refer to an extreme tenet of Judaism and one that does advocate gender segregation

[Nedusa]

Have we? Are the masonic lodges present in every town in the UK accepting female members all of a sudden? Hmmm... no, they're not. But no one makes a huge fuss because these organisations are private members clubs, attending one is a choice, and those who disagree with their outdated values simply don't go.

This is absolutely no different. Other than it being about nasty, scary, hairy Muslims instead of old white men. Think about the Masonic order for a minute. Did you get as angry about that as you are about this? No? Now consider why that might be?

Again, this is about guest speakers - not standard University course lectures - and attending these lectures is completely optional. It is not segregation in a public setting. It is clearly not some sort of imminent threat to our culture. It's getting zealots in to speak when they otherwise simply wouldn't come, because hearing them speak is academically interesting, and just blustering "WELL THEY JUST SHOULDN'T COME THEN BLAAARGH" is limiting to a University. You don't have to agree with a speaker to be interested in attending something like this. You can attend to debate against them. And the ability to do that is more important than refusing to allow the event to take place in the first place. Failure to realise this is and blustering in with butthurt placards is, frankly, unacademic and has no real place in any discussion over how a University is run. I will be horrified if these Universities bow to pressure and allow the assembled masses to dictate their policies.

Not sure your comparison with Masonic lodges highlights the issue in this thread. what is under attack here is the changing of well established normal routines eg when people attend lectures regardless of the subject or speaker, people sit wherever that is to say they are not compelled to suddenly undergo a gender segregation becuase it suits the whim or desire of the speaker.

This is the issue at hand when did we suddenly start allowing ourselves to be dictated to, and ask to accept new patterns of behaviour on the say so of someone who clearly believes that his way is the correct way.

It is not..........and we should resist such requests regardless of the academic consequences....!!!!

[the truth]

schools have segregation don't they? there are also many womens only organizations in this country and 1000s more female only charities than for males....clearly that point is lost here as this site is brainwashed by feminist bias

[Livia]

I was specifically referring to the part of the article that talks about people of "ultra orthodox faith". That phrase 'ultra orthodox' is mostly used to refer to an extreme tenet of Judaism and one that does advocate gender segregation

I think their use of the word "orthodox" was referring to orthodox religions in general. I don't think they were referring to any one religion in particular, and neither was I.

[Livia]

schools have segregation don't they? there are also many womens only organizations in this country and 1000s more female only charities than for males....clearly that point is lost here as this site is brainwashed by feminist bias

I think most women on this site are for equality.

[swinearefine]

Well aside from the Islamophobia this is bound to engender, sex segregation cannot be permitted in any form. I never graduated high school because of sex segregation because they made a new rule that boys and girls couldn't sit together on the bus anymore, and I refused to move so was off the bus with no way to school. What with this, the Croatian and Indian bans on gay rights, it seems like we've been taking some regrettable steps back in basic human rights lately.... at least we all have Uruguay though

[MTVN]

I think their use of the word "orthodox" was referring to orthodox religions in general. I don't think they were referring to any one religion in particular, and neither was I.

I didn't say that you were? My original comment asking why Muslims were being talked about specifically was more responding to the thread title

[Livia]

I didn't say that you were? My original comment asking why Muslims were being talked about specifically was more responding to the thread title

My mistake... I misunderstood.

[user104658]

Not sure your comparison with Masonic lodges highlights the issue in this thread. what is under attack here is the changing of well established normal routines eg when people attend lectures regardless of the subject or speaker, people sit wherever that is to say they are not compelled to suddenly undergo a gender segregation becuase it suits the whim or desire of the speaker.

This is the issue at hand when did we suddenly start allowing ourselves to be dictated to, and ask to accept new patterns of behaviour on the say so of someone who clearly believes that his way is the correct way.

It is not..........and we should resist such requests regardless of the academic consequences....!!!!

Ahh I see - so gender segregation is OK so long as it's British gender segregation, not a foreign invasion of murky alien gender segregators. This is pretty much what I suspected. This is not an issue of gender equality, but a cultural one.

[Marsh.]

schools have segregation don't they? there are also many womens only organizations in this country and 1000s more female only charities than for males....clearly that point is lost here as this site is brainwashed by feminist bias

You do realise feminism is about EQUALITY? Right?

[arista]

The PM has said no to this

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/dec/13/universities-uk-withdraws-advice-gender-segregation


[The body that represents UK universities
has withdrawn guidance on the
gender segregation
of audiences in lectures and debates
after the prime minister, David Cameron, said it
should not be allowed to happen.
Universities UK said a controversial
case study setting out the guidance
was being withdrawn while it
reviewed its stance, but insisted
the legal position remained unclear
on whether the voluntary separation
of men and women could be allowed
at events such as lectures on Islam by
visiting speakers.
Cameron's spokesman had
earlier said Universities UK
should urgently review the guidance.]

[arista]

another great live debate on Ch4News
Jon Snow with a Islamic woman who wants Segregation
and a Lady against that.

[arista]

http://www.channel4.com/news/pandering-to-extremism-pm-blasts-uni-gender-segregation
2nd video down
Video of the new Debate
from Ch4News tonight

[Me. I Am Salman]

I hope no uni is idiotic and weak enough to implement this

Welcome to Great Britanistan.....!!!!

So, they're coming into our country and demanding we adopt to their rules?

Yet whinge when we question their own personal codes of conduct?

I don't wish to sound racist at all, but either deal with it or bloody go home.

Sigh, it was inevitable :rolleyes: Islam is a RELIGION not a race, where are they mean to go? cuz I bet most of them were born here

It's funny because the people who get so worked up when being branded racist for slating Islam tend to always get race involved first

[Marsh.]

Tell someone who cares Sally. :rolleyes: