View Full Version : Girl dies of peanut allergy after pharmacy refuses emergency medication...
THIS is tragic teenager Emma Sloan who died on a city street just minutes after suffering a fatal allergic reaction. Emma (14) was out for a pre-Christmas meal with her family when she accidentally ate a nut-based sauce and suffered a severe allergic reaction
But when her mother rushed to a nearby pharmacy to get help, she was refused a life-saving adrenaline injection because she didn't have a prescription.
The distraught mother was told to bring her daughter to hospital but the two had only got a few yards away when the teenager collapsed.
Emma's mother, Caroline, told the Irish Independent: "I'm so angry I was not given the epipen to inject her. I was told to bring Emma to an A&E department.
"My daughter died on a street corner with a crowd around her. How could a peanut kill my child?"
The nightmarish series of events began near O'Connell Street in Dublin on Wednesday night. The family were eating at Jimmy Chung's chinese s buffet on Eden Quay when Emma mistakenly chose a sauce with nuts in it.
"Emma has always been very careful and would check the ingredients of every chocolate bar and other foods to be sure they didn't contain nuts," her mother Caroline said.
"She had a satay sauce. She thought it was curry sauce because it looked like curry sauce and smelt like curry," Ms Sloan (40) said.
"I'm not blaming the restaurant because there was a sign saying 'nuts contained' but it wasn't noticed. After a while, Emma began to say 'I can't breathe, I can't breathe'."
The teenager didn't have her 'epipen' injection device, often carried by people with allergies, with her.
Her mother told how she went around the corner to Hamilton Long chemist on O'Connell Street and desperately asked for an epipen injection to bring to her daughter outside.
"He told me I couldn't get it without a prescription. He told me to bring her to A&E.
"I left and I knew we'd have to run all the way to Temple Street hospital. But she only got as far as the corner with Abbey Street when she collapsed. She died on the footpath," said the grieving mother, fighting back tears.
"A doctor was passing and had tried to help and put her into the recovery position. Ambulance and fire brigade men worked on her. But she was gone."
Speaking to the Irish Independent, Ms Sloan appealed "to parents of children with nut allergies to make sure their child always carry an epipen with them. She said: "I took down the Christmas tree this morning. I'll never celebrate Christmas again."
Ms Sloan thanked the doctors and fire brigade who tried to help her daughter.
Children's Minister Frances Fitzgerald has now requested that an investigation be launched into the girl's death. A spokeswoman said: "She is horrified and upset for the family. Her thoughts are with the family and she has spoken to Minister Reilly and asked him to examine the facts of the case and precisely how this happened."
A senior member of staff at the Hamilton Long pharmacy told the Irish Independent that they had been advised by gardai to make no public comment whatsoever about the incident.
A member of the pharmacy profession in Dublin later told this newspaper that regulations prohibit the dispensing of epipen injections without a prescription.
It is classed as an 'S1B' drug containing adrenaline and has the potential to do harm. Pharmacists are not allowed to give the injection.
A security guard who witnessed the tragedy unfold on O'Connell Street said he was "very stressed" by it.
Mujahid Najeebhun (29), a security man at Clarkes shoes, said: "I saw the girl lying on the ground. She was in the recovery position and there was something coming out of her mouth. Then people noticed she wasn't breathing. A woman was shouting, 'My daughter is dying.'
"The people saw the fire brigade at the traffic lights and they were shouting at them to hurry up. They came and began giving her CPR. I'm so sad that the girl died."
A member of management at Jimmy Chung's said the satay sauce had a sign over it which read: "Satay Sauce. Nuts Contained."
The restaurant owner Tony Shek said later: "We heard nothing about it. The staff are often asked by family members if foods contain nuts. But nothing was mentioned to any staff yesterday."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mothers-agony-as-teenage-girl-dies-from-peanut-allergy-on-city-street-29854519.html
Ninastar
21-12-2013, 04:36 PM
Epipens can be very dangerous because the dosages can be lethal if messed up. If the pharmacist had no idea what her prescription was, what could he do?
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 04:40 PM
"A member of the pharmacy profession in Dublin later told this newspaper that regulations prohibit the dispensing of epipen injections without a prescription.
It is classed as an 'S1B' drug containing adrenaline and has the potential to do harm. Pharmacists are not allowed to give the injection."
I'm Irish, and I know this country has gone mad. Adrenaline has the fooking potential to do harm!! So has aspirin! So has alcohol, and cigarettes.
Fooking hell! This drug had the potential to save a life. And it was denied because of the remote possibility of doing fooking harm.
I'm furious about this.
Epipens can be very dangerous because the dosages can be lethal if messed up. If the pharmacist had no idea what her prescription was, what could he do?
I didn't know that, I was about to respond to the thread expressing shock that the pharmacy refused to help but that would make a lot of sense... what a tragedy though. Still, you should always be careful of what you eat if you have an allergy, seems a bit stupid to me, especially as there was a sign...
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 04:48 PM
Epipens can be very dangerous because the dosages can be lethal if messed up. If the pharmacist had no idea what her prescription was, what could he do?
I bow to your knowledge. But, pharmacists are suppose to be equally as qualified as Doctors in the prescription of drugs, "Her mother told how she went around the corner to Hamilton Long chemist on O'Connell Street and desperately asked for an epipen injection to bring to her daughter outside."
The pharmacist should have seen her need for the drug, because he was qualified to do so.
He failed to do it because he was terrified of litigation in this mad litigious world.
Heartbreaking story.I understand the difficult position the pharmacist was in but if I saw someone dying in front of me I think i would have left the epipen on the counter and told the mother "here is the epipen your daughter needs...legally I can not give it to you without prescription" and would have turned my back .The pharmacist could easily made a call to the chemist she usually gets her prescription filled or her GP to find out what dosage she needed or I am sure her mother would have known the dosage.
smudgie
21-12-2013, 04:52 PM
To be honest, I am shocked that nobody in the family knew that satay sauce is peanut based.
If your child has an allergy, you really should look into it in depth.
Not carrying her pen was a mistake as well.
Terrible to lose a child and my heart goes out to them.
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 04:54 PM
Heartbreaking story.I understand the difficult position the pharmacist was in but if I saw someone dying in front of me I think i would have left the epipen on the counter and told the mother "here is the epipen your daughter needs...legally I can not give it to you without prescription" and would have turned my back .The pharmacist could easily made a call to the chemist she usually gets her prescription filled or her GP to find out what dosage she needed or I am sure her mother would have known the dosage.
Yes he could have. Given it to her mother. The pharmacists have been terrified HERE, Ireland, by the regulatory authority. I know, my brother in law, a pharmacist, has his every move watched, by the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO. They're terrified of giving drugs which require prescriptions to people without them. It's all very controlled. Pharmacy in Ireland is very controlled, and expensive, btw.
..I know that you have to have epipen training to be able to administer it but her mum would have known the dosage she needed, I would have thought...so she would have been able to tell the pharmacist and it was an emergency situation...?..
It's not really fair to blame the pharmacist - the mother burst in, in a panic, asking for an epipen - if they're not allowed to dish things out without a prescription then he/she was just doing their job. I'm a bit shocked they didn't have the girl's epipen with them, that's pretty complacent... :/
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 04:58 PM
It's not really fair to blame the pharmacist - the mother burst in, in a panic, asking for an epipen - if they're not allowed to dish things out without a prescription then he/she was just doing their job. I'm a bit shocked they didn't have the girl's epipen with them, that's pretty complacent... :/
No, don't agree. Pharmacists here in Ireland are paid as much as Doctors. They have equal responsibility.
arista
21-12-2013, 05:02 PM
"My daughter died on a street corner with a crowd around her. How could a peanut kill my child?"
Tragic
but this does happen around the world
No, don't agree. Pharmacists here in Ireland are paid as much as Doctors. They have equal responsibility.
I don't really think a person's salary dictates how much they can break the rules of their job description... from an emotional point of view, I can't believe a pharmacist wouldn't hand over an epipen to help a dying person; but as it's an exact science how much medication is needed in any given epipen for any individual, the pharmacist wouldn't necessarily have had the dosage needed just waiting by the counter in some kind of "here's one I made earlier" situation. Any time I go to the pharmacy for some medication, I have to wait half an hour to get my medication - I don't know why that is but I don't think it's because they like to make people wait. Maybe the pharmacist didn't have what they needed. Maybe the mother wasn't making sense. Maybe the girl died before the pharmacist could have realistically provided anything for her. I don't know.
I know a mother who has two children who have the same allergy here in Ireland.Whilst out shopping late friday evening two weeks ago and had her handbag which contained the epipens stolen.
As her GP was not going to reopen untill the monday morning she faced the weekend with out her childrens epipens.She went into a chemist ,told the pharmacist the situation he inturn phoned her regular pharmacist who emailed through her kids prescription history.He gave her the epipen and asked her to bring in the prescription from her GP on the monday,which she did.
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 05:10 PM
I know a mother who has two children who have the same allergy here in Ireland.Whilst out shopping late friday evening two weeks ago and had her handbag which contained the epipens stolen.
As her GP was not going to reopen untill the monday morning she faced the weekend with out her childrens epipens.She went into a chemist ,told the pharmacist the situation he inturn phoned her regular pharmacist who emailed through her kids prescription history.He gave her the epipen and asked her to bring in the prescription from her GP on the monday,which she did.
Wonderful. It doesn't really cover forgetting your meds and being in an emergency situation
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 05:18 PM
I don't really think a person's salary dictates how much they can break the rules of their job description... from an emotional point of view, I can't believe a pharmacist wouldn't hand over an epipen to help a dying person; but as it's an exact science how much medication is needed in any given epipen for any individual, the pharmacist wouldn't necessarily have had the dosage needed just waiting by the counter in some kind of "here's one I made earlier" situation. Any time I go to the pharmacy for some medication, I have to wait half an hour to get my medication - I don't know why that is but I don't think it's because they like to make people wait. Maybe the pharmacist didn't have what they needed. Maybe the mother wasn't making sense. Maybe the girl died before the pharmacist could have realistically provided anything for her. I don't know.
My brother in law is a pharmacist. My niece is too. She's irrelevant.
My brother in law use to be lax about prescription drugs. Antibiotics and painkillers. Solpaeine.
He was a good lad, benevolent.
Ithinkiloveyoutoo
21-12-2013, 05:19 PM
Don't know what to say. On the other hand if the pharmacist had given it to her and it turned out to be a factor on her dying, the pharmacist would be on trial. difficult situation but RIP.
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 05:25 PM
Don't know what to say. On the other hand if the pharmacist had given it to her and it turned out to be a factor on her dying, the pharmacist would be on trial. difficult situation but RIP.
I think the pharmacist has a case to face for not performing his duty.
Pharmacists are not suppose to be just shopkeepers, they are suppose to be medical professionals, who perform a medical service.
Not just money for old rope.
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 05:29 PM
I'm very angry that a pharmacist denied live-saving treatment to a human being.
Cherie
21-12-2013, 05:33 PM
Difficult situation for the pharmacist, however I think he could have done a bit more, at least try and find out the dosage or where her regular prescription was fulfilled or dialled 999, why let them walk to A and E? The mother was obviously in a panic and not thinking straight, but letting her walk out of his shop was really horrendous of him.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nut-allergy-girl-didnt-need-script-for-lifesaving-jab-29857224.html
It seems that pharmacists are allowed to provide prescription only meds in an emergency situation since 2003.
Scotland seem to have the right idea.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/pharmacies-to-offer-allergic-reaction-treatment-1-3038842
Cherie
21-12-2013, 05:43 PM
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nut-allergy-girl-didnt-need-script-for-lifesaving-jab-29857224.html
It seems that pharmacists are allowed to provide prescription only meds in an emergency situation since 2003.
Scotland seem to have the right idea.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/pharmacies-to-offer-allergic-reaction-treatment-1-3038842
Oh well in that case it looks like he was being a lazy bastard.
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 05:50 PM
As a consumer within the Irish system I have noticed a sharp clamp=down on the administration of drugs.
The pharmaceutical business in Ireland is a rip off. It's theft. It still is.
When you try to buy a prescription medicine, made in India, the IMO will steal it from your post
user104658
21-12-2013, 06:47 PM
This is tragic but a few things are utterly baffling me... For one, most people with a nut allergy wouldn't leave the house without an epi pen because they can be in ANYTHING via cross contamination. Secondly, not having one at a Chinese meal, a type of food which very often contains nuts... And thirdly, having a family member with nut allergy and not knowing roughly which goods contain nuts? Satay sauce doesn't just have nuts in it - it is BASED on peanuts. She might has well have chomped down a tub of peanut butter.
This is a terrible tragedy for any family to endure but there's a lesson in it for anyone with a food allergy, or who has a family member with a food allergy. You need to make sure that you ARE prepared, and also educated on where the dangers lie. Satay sauce would be right at the top of a nut allergy sufferers "avoid" list.
GypsyGoth
21-12-2013, 08:11 PM
I've heard of peanut allergies before, but I never thought it was that serious.
It's a really sad story, shame that it took this for the mom the realise that she should have been carrying around this injection all along. And again it was pretty reckless to overlook the -this product contains nuts - warning.
Hopefully people and children who get diagnosed with this in the future will be better informed.
Vanessa
21-12-2013, 08:13 PM
She was a Luke Friend fan. Her Christmas present was to see Luke live in Dublin. :bawling:
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 08:15 PM
She was a Luke Friend fan. Her Christmas present was to see Luke live in Dublin. :bawling:
This is very offensive.
I've heard of peanut allergies before, but I never thought it was that serious.
It's a really sad story, shame that it took this for the mom the realise that she should have been carrying around this injection all along. And again it was pretty reckless to overlook the -this product contains nuts - warning.
Hopefully people and children who get diagnosed with this in the future will be better informed.
..yeah, some are extremely serious, Claudia...at school, children with nut allergies can't eat their lunch on the same table with anyone who has something like a peanut butter sandwich in their lunch...it happened once because no one was aware the child had the sandwich filling and the 'nut allergy' had an instant and extreme reaction...we did have an epi-pen though, which we used and then he was taken to hospital...he was ok but it was very scary...
Vanessa
21-12-2013, 08:18 PM
This is very offensive.
From the Luke Friend appreciation thread on Digital Spy :
A tiny post in memory of 14 year-old Emma whose Christmas present was X Factor tour tickets to Dublin. She was a fan of Luke and would have been excited about seeing him come to town, I wonder if she knew? I weep for her that she didn't have the opportunity to see Luke perform live. Her death had nothing to do with being a Friendie. Isn't it sad Luke has one fan less due to rules and regulations:
AnnieK
21-12-2013, 08:19 PM
..yeah, some are extremely serious, Claudia...at school, children with nut allergies can't eat their lunch on the same table with anyone who has something like a peanut butter sandwich in their lunch...it happened once because no one was aware the child had the sandwich filling and the 'nut allergy' had an instant and extreme reaction...we did have an epi-pen though, which we used and then he was taken to hospital...he was ok but it was very scary...
A girl at my friends daughters school just died from a huge allergic reaction to nuts, so sad.
Nemo123
21-12-2013, 08:20 PM
From the Luke Friend appreciation thread on Digital Spy :
A tiny post in memory of 14 year-old Emma whose Christmas present was X Factor tour tickets to Dublin. She was a fan of Luke and would have been excited about seeing him come to town, I wonder if she knew? I weep for her that she didn't have the opportunity to see Luke perform live. Her death had nothing to do with being a Friendie. Isn't it sad Luke has one fan less due to rules and regulations:
Thanks.
Context is always nice.
My cousin has a peanut allergy. As far as I know he doesn't have an epi-pen in case he eats something with nuts in it, I wonder if it's common for people with nut allergies to not really take it seriously?
Ninastar
22-12-2013, 12:53 AM
..yeah, some are extremely serious, Claudia...at school, children with nut allergies can't eat their lunch on the same table with anyone who has something like a peanut butter sandwich in their lunch...it happened once because no one was aware the child had the sandwich filling and the 'nut allergy' had an instant and extreme reaction...we did have an epi-pen though, which we used and then he was taken to hospital...he was ok but it was very scary...
We have to seperate one of our children too but thankfully nothing has ever happened at my work. Are you epipen trained? I am and it's crazy up see how quickly it can happen.
I think the mother should have carried the epipen at all times really.
Nemo123
22-12-2013, 12:59 AM
Thanks.
Context is always nice.
I'm sorry. Your tragic loss is greater than the run-of-the-mill cancer deaths, which occur every day.
Niamh.
22-12-2013, 01:05 AM
We have to seperate one of our children too but thankfully nothing has ever happened at my work. Are you epipen trained? I am and it's crazy up see how quickly it can happen.
I think the mother should have carried the epipen at all times really.
You would think so if your child had that serious of an allergy. Still though I think If I worked at a pharmacy and someone was dying on my doorstep, I'd just hand it over tbh
Ninastar
22-12-2013, 01:22 AM
You would think so if your child had that serious of an allergy. Still though I think If I worked at a pharmacy and someone was dying on my doorstep, I'd just hand it over tbh
i agree but i very much doubt he knew her prescription and im not too sure whether the mum said it herself. he could have killed her himself if he 'guessed' and got it wrong so i think he just did what he thought was best.
i know you'd just hand over the medicine, anyone would... but I don't think it is as simple as handing over a simple prescription. Maybe it takes 10 - 15 minutes to make. who knows?
for someone to blame the pharmacist is totally wrong. There's many things wrong with the healthcare system atm and this isn't one of them. This pharmacist will probably blame himself for life now.
We have to seperate one of our children too but thankfully nothing has ever happened at my work. Are you epipen trained? I am and it's crazy up see how quickly it can happen.
I think the mother should have carried the epipen at all times really.
..yeah, virtually everyone in the school is epipen trained because we have quite a few allergies, although not all of them have serious reactions..and actually, not all of them have epipens...we've had a few random allergies as well when not even the parents were aware of them until it happened, so there were no epipens etc...luckily they've all been ok though, but it is pretty scary to see it all happening so quickly...and the feeling of complete helplessness when a child/someone can't breathe..I guess that's why I can't understand this story and the pharmacist because, you would try anything to help them if you could because it's obvious with a serious allergic reaction that time is a big factor...but I guess I also understand that they wouldn't have wanted to take responsibility for something going wrong so it is a difficult one...just not a position you want to be put into really...poor girl and her family though, just one of those very tragic things....
Jords
22-12-2013, 05:26 AM
Im sorry but the pharmacist is a ****ing idiot. I wonder what their reaction would have been if the 14 year old had stumbled in by herself begging for an epipen? Send her out the door all the same and watch her collapse by herself?
That pharmacist should have had an idea by that girl's reaction what she was suffering of and the extent of it. Following rules straight to the end is NOT always the answer! Its just the easiest option and look at the result of it.
Careless.
..yeah, I do know what you mean, Jords...but I think it's probably become such a culture of serious repercussions if someone makes an error, that maybe people have become too wary of even trying, which is so very sad...and as much as it's an 'ideal' thought to think that people would just act on instinct and try to help, regardless of rules etc..they do also have to think of themselves/their families etc and the possible repercussions/effects it could have on them if they got it wrong....I don't know if that's what it was but...yeah...really sad...
Jords
22-12-2013, 05:36 AM
..yeah, I do know what you mean, Jords...but I think it's probably become such a culture of serious repercussions if someone makes an error, that maybe people have become too wary of even trying, which is so very sad...and as much as it's an 'ideal' thought to think that people would just act on instinct and try to help, regardless of rules etc..they do also have to think of themselves/their families etc and the possible repercussions/effects it could have on them if they got it wrong....I don't know if that's what it was but...yeah...really sad...
In my opinion they were not doing their job properly, they should have had some idea on the severity and acted upon it appropriately i.e. give the girl the bloody epipen!
Im so shocked at this, and if they use "I was just doing my job" then they are an even bigger idiot because that would suggest to me if the exact same scenario took place theyd act in the exact same manner i.e. letting people die!
In my opinion they were not doing their job properly, they should have had some idea on the severity and acted upon it appropriately i.e. give the girl the bloody epipen!
Im so shocked at this, and if they use "I was just doing my job" then they are an even bigger idiot because that would suggest to me if the exact same scenario took place theyd act in the exact same manner i.e. letting people die!
...hmmm, having personally witnessed this sort of fast allergic reaction before, I'm not really sure about this..which sounds a bit 'fence-sitting' but I think that I'm generally a bit of a sceptic with stories like this in that if it happened to my child, I don't think one of the first things I would do is to talk to the media..which is not to say everyone reacts the same to things but I think that I would just like to know more about it/if there is more to the story...if her daughter didn't show any/many symptoms at the time/the hospital was close by/and it was all just tragically miscalculated...?...
There are just so many factors in this scenario that we aren't aware of because all we have is the word of the mother, who is obviously grieving, probably still in shock over what happened and, at the risk of sounding insensitive, is looking for somebody to blame for what happened because she didn't have her daughter's epi-pen on her to save her life.
Ninastar
22-12-2013, 01:42 PM
There are just so many factors in this scenario that we aren't aware of because all we have is the word of the mother, who is obviously grieving, probably still in shock over what happened and, at the risk of sounding insensitive, is looking for somebody to blame for what happened because she didn't have her daughter's epi-pen on her to save her life.
totally agree
and the fact that epi-pens don't come ready made... he cant just whip up an epi-pen that is perfectly suitable for her age/weight/height etc. she could have gotten to the hospital quicker than the time it would take him to make the antidote
Livia
22-12-2013, 01:47 PM
The moral of this story surely has to be, take your epi-pen with you. Have a friend with as severe nut allergy and he doesn't leave home without his.
Ninastar
22-12-2013, 01:51 PM
The moral of this story surely has to be, take your epi-pen with you. Have a friend with as severe nut allergy and he doesn't leave home without his.
exactly... we have two epi-pens for the same child at my work. Every single member of staff is epi-pen trained. I don't think its fair to blame the pharmacist at all.
Livia
22-12-2013, 01:57 PM
exactly... we have two epi-pens for the same child at my work. Every single member of staff is epi-pen trained. I don't think its fair to blame the pharmacist at all.
I'm with you on that. Actually, I didn't know about the dosage, and every pen being different until I read your post... I've never thought about it before even though it's kind of obvious. If the pharmacist had handed one over and the girl had died because the dosage was wrong, he/she would still have been in the wrong.
Ninastar
22-12-2013, 02:16 PM
I'm with you on that. Actually, I didn't know about the dosage, and every pen being different until I read your post... I've never thought about it before even though it's kind of obvious. If the pharmacist had handed one over and the girl had died because the dosage was wrong, he/she would still have been in the wrong.
exactly. its a horrible situation either way and no matter what would happen, he'd get the blame
surely if the reaction was that bad, you'd just take them to the hospital
I feel sorry for the mother but I'm just a bit taken aback that the girl ate satay sauce, they didn't have her epi-pen with them and she didn't immediately realise that it was a peanut based sauce... that's what it tastes of!!
Ninastar
22-12-2013, 02:27 PM
we always seem to agree <3
we make a great threesome
we always seem to agree <3
we make a great threesome
We're going to have to work Livia's name into Zeenastar
Cherie
22-12-2013, 02:41 PM
Maybe it was a tragic one off incident that the epipen was left at home, people can and do make mistakes, how many people turn up at the airport each year without their passports for example?
Kizzy
22-12-2013, 02:46 PM
Satay sauce smells of peanuts.. it's a peanut based sauce? I can't understand how she mixed the two.
Not having her pen or medical ID with her was silly, poor girl. Mind you if I was the pharmacist I would have done it, in an emergency situation you would think anyone with any knowledge at all would try something to save a life?
Ninastar
22-12-2013, 02:47 PM
We're going to have to work Livia's name into Zeenastar
how about 'long Livia Zeenastar'
Kizzy
22-12-2013, 02:54 PM
I think kizzzee sounds better.... Come on you know you agree with me zee, just admit it then we can all have a nice day :D
Jords
22-12-2013, 05:26 PM
Satay sauce smells of peanuts.. it's a peanut based sauce? I can't understand how she mixed the two.
Not having her pen or medical ID with her was silly, poor girl. Mind you if I was the pharmacist I would have done it, in an emergency situation you would think anyone with any knowledge at all would try something to save a life?
Yes you bloody would! Still find this absolutely shocking.
user104658
22-12-2013, 09:12 PM
Satay sauce smells of peanuts.. it's a peanut based sauce? I can't understand how she mixed the two.
Not having her pen or medical ID with her was silly, poor girl. Mind you if I was the pharmacist I would have done it, in an emergency situation you would think anyone with any knowledge at all would try something to save a life?
It's not really as simple as that. If she was walking still then it wouldn't be obvious that she was within minutes of death - and there's a risk that administering an incorrect dose of medication could kill her.
So the choice is between not giving her something and potentially failing to save a girl who is about to die - OR giving her something and potentially killing a girl who might otherwise not have died. NOW which do you choose? It's an impossible choice, and that's why there are regulations.
The truth is, the family clearly weren't aware enough of how serious an allergy like this can be. If they were, then they wouldn't have risked going out without the medication... they wouldn't have been unaware that satay is nut-based... in fact they probably wouldn't have been eating chinese in the first place (a lot of chinese food is peanut based and there's a high risk of cross-contamination). And, they would have placed her in the recovery position and told her to breathe slowly and calmly, and dialed 999 as soon as she started to react, they wouldn't have been concerned about her walking / running anywhere. They panicked, they didn't know what to do, and they made mistakes. The pharmacist made mistakes too; they should have called an ambulance themselves and stressed the urgency rather than telling the mother to "take her" to hospital.
Not sure if that means that the family are "to blame" for not educating themselves on the severity of the condition... or if it's the fault of the medical professionals who diagnosed the allergy in the first place for not being clear about the very real and very serious risks.
As it stands, I don't think anyone should be thrown under the bus for the tragic outcome of this situation... but certainly not the pharmacist. Imagine the outrage if a pharmacist did administer or provide unprescribed medication in a situation like this, and the person had a reaction to it and died? Everyone would be foaming at the mouth about professional misconduct, demanding them struck off, you'd probably even have some people suggesting they be brought up on manslaughter charges. There HAS to be protocol, it has to be followed, and hastily administering any medication "blind" is never the right choice.
mizzy25
22-12-2013, 10:12 PM
horrible story. What Ive always wanted to know is how do you know your allergic to nuts and that they can kill you that quickly, unless you eat one?
Kizzy
23-12-2013, 01:01 AM
It's not really as simple as that. If she was walking still then it wouldn't be obvious that she was within minutes of death - and there's a risk that administering an incorrect dose of medication could kill her.
So the choice is between not giving her something and potentially failing to save a girl who is about to die - OR giving her something and potentially killing a girl who might otherwise not have died. NOW which do you choose? It's an impossible choice, and that's why there are regulations.
The truth is, the family clearly weren't aware enough of how serious an allergy like this can be. If they were, then they wouldn't have risked going out without the medication... they wouldn't have been unaware that satay is nut-based... in fact they probably wouldn't have been eating chinese in the first place (a lot of chinese food is peanut based and there's a high risk of cross-contamination). And, they would have placed her in the recovery position and told her to breathe slowly and calmly, and dialed 999 as soon as she started to react, they wouldn't have been concerned about her walking / running anywhere. They panicked, they didn't know what to do, and they made mistakes. The pharmacist made mistakes too; they should have called an ambulance themselves and stressed the urgency rather than telling the mother to "take her" to hospital.
Not sure if that means that the family are "to blame" for not educating themselves on the severity of the condition... or if it's the fault of the medical professionals who diagnosed the allergy in the first place for not being clear about the very real and very serious risks.
As it stands, I don't think anyone should be thrown under the bus for the tragic outcome of this situation... but certainly not the pharmacist. Imagine the outrage if a pharmacist did administer or provide unprescribed medication in a situation like this, and the person had a reaction to it and died? Everyone would be foaming at the mouth about professional misconduct, demanding them struck off, you'd probably even have some people suggesting they be brought up on manslaughter charges. There HAS to be protocol, it has to be followed, and hastily administering any medication "blind" is never the right choice.
DO you think I answered in the thread WITHOUT thinking of the ethical constrictions of this senario?
As stated eariler in the thread there are provisos in place since 2003 for emergency supplies of meds without prescription.
There is also a world of informations at the click of a button for professionals in emergency situations. I feel MORE could have been done in the circumstances if the chemist had been slightly more proactive.
That's my take initially given the information in the article, we can't say what the outcome would have been if they had attempted to intervene as they chose not to.
The fact is they didn't even attempt to use any of the tools available, that TO ME is wrong.
Livia
23-12-2013, 01:42 AM
Never mind what the pharmacist should have done, not being aware that there are peanuts in a satay sauce when you know your child is highly allergic, and leaving home without the necessary meds to save her are the keys to this story for me.
Kizzy
23-12-2013, 02:13 AM
It's not what's up for debate though is it? That's a given really.
Vicky.
23-12-2013, 02:16 AM
The child had a serious nut allergy..they didnt know she was eating nuts, they didnt have her own (I presume she has one) epipen with them.
This is a tragic story, but it could easily have been avoided :/
Its unfair to blame the pharmacist really..if giving the wrong dose could also kill her. As the nuts might not have, and then the epipen did
Kizzy
23-12-2013, 02:26 AM
It wouldn't take long for a pharmacist to get hold of the info he needed if he had tried a tad harder? Maybe the severity of the situation wasn't apparent until it was too late, or her reactions hadn't been as severe in the past? It's a horrible situation, it seems as if it was a shock to everyone.
Maybe it had only recently manifested? My sister was only diagnosed as coeliac (gluten intolerant) in her 50s.
Vicky.
23-12-2013, 02:36 AM
The severity of the situation escalating quickly makes no difference to the fact that the parents should have checked there was no nuts in her meal, plus been carrying her medication.
I dont know how fast the pharmacist could have got hold of her perscription. So can't condemn I him/her on what ifs :S
Vicky.
23-12-2013, 02:40 AM
Also if the condition hadnt been serious enough in the past to require an adrenaline shot, then there would have been no perscription to find.
I think its a bit of a silly rule, I honestly cant see how much harm a little extra adrenaline could do, but I know nothing about those kind of drugs.
The pharmacist as to cover his/her own back, or they could end up unemployed and with a hefty court case too.
Kizzy
23-12-2013, 03:05 AM
The severity of the situation escalating quickly makes no difference to the fact that the parents should have checked there was no nuts in her meal, plus been carrying her medication.
I dont know how fast the pharmacist could have got hold of her perscription. So can't condemn I him/her on what ifs :S
I meant the pen may have just been a precaution as she may never have had such a serious reaction previously? maybe just some tingling or slight swelling, the mum saying 'how could a peanut do this?' sounds like she wasn't prepared for or expecting this outcome.
The pharmacist was the only one who had the power to influence the outcome of this situation, he made his choice not to act, he may have saved her, he may not we'll never know.
I would like to think that in the same circumstances I would have at least attempted to.
Kizzy
23-12-2013, 03:21 AM
After a quick look it seems that a pre-filled single dose syringe is used, anapen or epipen identified by coloured lids. Adrenaline can cause shortness of breath and an irregular heartbeat, which when you're already dying is irrelevant I guess?
..all I know is that it's going to be an extremely sad Christmas for her family and if there is blame and where it lies, isn't going to change that...I really can't imagine how they're feeling and I thank God that I can't...just so tragic...
thesheriff443
23-12-2013, 08:21 AM
my brothers's little girl, had her first reaction to a cashew nut, a few days ago, she spat it it out but her lips started to swell and a rash appeared instantly, she was taken straight to the doctors, she has since had a blood test, to test if she is allergic,
we are all now on nut watch.
..yeah, that very first time someone has a severe allergic reaction to something is so scary and for some people it can result in tragedy..I'm glad she's ok though, Sheriff...
Nedusa
23-12-2013, 10:20 AM
Given that the simple act of eating peanuts or any food containing peanuts CAN kill you I would have thought the precautions taken to ensure this doesn't happen would be strictly adhered to in all circumstances.
Also given the age of the child the parent must re-inforce these precautions and drum into the child the seriousness of this situation. So when eating out ALL food must be checked before consumption ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE with no exceptions. and the carrying of adrenaline must become second nature like a diabetic carrying insulin.
This story highlights the tragic consequences when these rules are inadvertently relaxed and like a lot of posters on here I agree that the Pharmacist could not be expected to administer the adrenaline without authority as the wrong dose could have killed the girl in any case. so I think tragic as it sounds it is unfair to put any blame on the pharmacist.
Sad tale all round it's hard to believe a food allergy can actually result in someone's death in such a casual encounter with this type of food.
Livia
23-12-2013, 02:19 PM
It's not what's up for debate though is it? That's a given really.
The whole story is up for debate, not just the bit about the pharmacist. I don't like the spin that's been put on the story. It's already been well covered that you can't just hand out epi-pens, and that they're specially prepared for individuals. It's hard to get a full picture from one article... It looks like they're trying to lay the blame at the feet of the pharmacist. I feel sure that if it was one of your children - God forbid - you would know exactly what was in everything they ate, and they themselves would be taught to know, and you'd make sure they always had their meds with them. I find it rather strange that the mother didn't know, and didn't have the remedy, bearing in mind the daughter's acute allergy.
Kizzy
23-12-2013, 02:48 PM
The whole story is up for debate, not just the bit about the pharmacist. I don't like the spin that's been put on the story. It's already been well covered that you can't just hand out epi-pens, and that they're specially prepared for individuals. It's hard to get a full picture from one article... It looks like they're trying to lay the blame at the feet of the pharmacist. I feel sure that if it was one of your children - God forbid - you would know exactly what was in everything they ate, and they themselves would be taught to know, and you'd make sure they always had their meds with them. I find it rather strange that the mother didn't know, and didn't have the remedy, bearing in mind the daughter's acute allergy.
It's been well covered you can't hand out any prescribed medication except if you're a pharmacist in an emergency situation, since 2003 wasn't it?
epi pens are not pre prepared for individuals they are pre filled with 0.3ml of adrenaline, that wouldn't have killed her but could possibly have saved her or bought some time till a paramedic arrived.
The article doesn't go into how/when the allergy began, her mother should have had her meds with her no question, the suggestion is could the pharmacist done more in an emergency? Personally I think yes.
Sadly it's all too late for her.
Livia
23-12-2013, 02:58 PM
I don't know about epi-pens, dosages or the legalities associated with their use, any more than anyone else with Google knows, and based on that I wouldn't want to make a decision about who was right and who was wrong. Especially so as as the pharmacy has been advised not to comment at this point so all we have to go on it the word of the distraught mother. Anyhoo, we disagree on this as usual, but I think we can agree that it's a tragic loss of a young life.
Kizzy
23-12-2013, 03:23 PM
A short trip to the NHS website via google shows that the information you relied on when you stated that the epipens are prepared for individuals is wrong. Always pays to check facts, I'm not surprised the pharmacist has been advised not to comment.
Marcus.
23-12-2013, 04:21 PM
awww poor girl
the truth
25-12-2013, 04:20 AM
health and safety finds another tragic victim.....whatever happened to this once great country when were now so enslaved to stupid rules we cant even find the courage to attempt to save a young girls life..........a good plan now beats a perfect plan tomorrow...that mother should have punched him and stolen the shot
Nedusa
25-12-2013, 08:13 AM
health and safety finds another tragic victim.....whatever happened to this once great country when were now so enslaved to stupid rules we cant even find the courage to attempt to save a young girls life..........a good plan now beats a perfect plan tomorrow...that mother should have punched him and stolen the shot
I agree...... We are all victims of this nonsense !!!!
the truth
26-12-2013, 01:08 AM
I agree...... We are all victims of this nonsense !!!!
this is also why thousands of innocent patients die in our own british NHS wards through dehydration , because the staff eiter cant be bothered to give them swallow tests or are too scared the liquid goes to the lungs and the patient dies and the family blames and sues them individually
so instead we let people die of thirst? and we consider ourselves an intelligent moral nation? we are 62 million grade a morons and I include myself in that for remaining here
thesheriff443
26-12-2013, 01:16 AM
this is also why thousands of innocent patients die in our own british NHS wards through dehydration , because the staff eiter cant be bothered to give them swallow tests or are too scared the liquid goes to the lungs and the patient dies and the family blames and sues them individually
so instead we let people die of thirst? and we consider ourselves an intelligent moral nation? we are 62 million grade a morons and I include myself in that for remaining here
its the rat race im afraid!
you know we are in and so do I.
we need to be cost efficient as possible, work long and hard but die quick and easy.
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