M+S staff can refuse to serve people certain products apparently...[U-turn]

[Vicky.]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10532782/Muslim-staff-at-Marks-and-Spencer-can-refuse-to-sell-alcohol-and-pork.html
Muslim staff working for Marks & Spencer have been given permission to refuse to serve customers buying alcohol or pork products

Its policy decision has highlighted a split among the big food retailers over whether religious staff should be excused certain jobs.

In contrast to M&S, Sainsbury’s said it had issued official guidelines that stated there was no reason why staff who did not drink alcohol or eat pork for religious reasons could not handle the goods.

The advice followed consultations with religious groups, said a spokesman.

Tesco said it treated each case on its merits, but said it “made no sense” to employ staff on a till who refused to touch certain items for religious reasons.
What on earth do we think of this?

I think its ****ing ridiculous. If you wont serve some of the stuff a shop sells, dont work there.

Also, its going to make people pick a till based on the ethnicity of the checkout person..surely? I'm sure all muslims wont be this anal...but if theres a chance you are going to have to queue, then queue again, you will go for a checkout operator that doesn't 'look' muslim (as much as one can look a religion..) so you only have to queue once.. wont you?

Just seems utter madness. Though I expect if those refusing to handle alcohol and pork were sacked for refusing to do their job,. it would be classed as discrimination..

Sainsburys (and tesco to a lesser extent, since it seems they still look at it as 'case by case')has the right idea at least. Noone is forcing anyone to drink alcohol or eat pork. So whats the bloody problem?

[Vicky.]

Also opens up a lot of other questions..would it be acceptable for a vegetarian staff member to refuse to handle any meat? How about someone on a diet, would it be ok for them to refuse to sell chocolate?

I actually can't get over how stupid this is

[Z]

This is a huge can of worms. Stupid decision by M&S. Good job I never shop there for food.

[Vicky.]

Morrisons do it too by the looks of it

Mind I have ever been refused service there and I buy a lot of bacon and stuff. I'm guessing its just a couple of twats who have refused, as most people would just be happy to have a job, not moaning and making a fuss about having to touch the packaging of certain items.

[Tom4784]

It's stupid and patronising to Muslims.

[Z]

Such a stupid ruling. It's just encouraging discrimination against the 99% to satisfy the 1%.

[smeagol]

if they wont serve the product or handle it. they should be sacked, go work down a mine or become a lolipop man lol . why would any company employ someone who cant do the job. unless they employ based on religion and skin not skill or attitude .

[fingers]

Total PC Madness,
the shape of things to come?

What next? Roman Catholics refusing to sell Condoms?

[Livia]

How bloody ridiculous. I worked as a waitress at uni, I served people pork. If it offends people to do a particular part of a job on religious grounds, don't take them on in the first place. It's just daft.

[fingers]

Will M&S set up Kosher Tills staffed ONLY by Jewish staff where only Kosher items can be processed?

[Livia]

Will M&S set up Kosher Tills staffed ONLY by Jewish staff where only Kosher items can be processed?

One member of staff just to sell Rakusen's Matzos... seems a little excessive to me.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

civil war dudes. Coming soon.

[Marsh.]

How do these people live lives with such petty little worries?

I'm sure Allah won't send them to hell (do they have hell? :shrug:) for scanning a bottle of bucks fizz and giving it to an old woman.

Can non-smokers refuse to touch cigarette packets too? Just stupid.

[Marsh.]

Will M&S set up Kosher Tills staffed ONLY by Jewish staff where only Kosher items can be processed?

Sack these petty bitches and set up more self serves. :laugh:

I'm against getting rid of jobs in favour of faceless machines but if they're going to be so touchy about a simple job, get rid.

[jackc1806]

How ridiculous

[user104658]

Can non-smokers refuse to touch cigarette packets too? Just stupid.

Well exactly; I could almost... ALMOST... understand the reasoning if Muslims didn't eat pigs because they consider them to be sacred... but is it not because they are considered "unclean"? And if that's the case, then surely there's a massive precedent set for someone who is morally against smoking - for example, if they have had a family member die of smoking-caused lung cancer or heart disease - to refuse to sell cigarettes?

The fact is though, if you think pig-meat is unclean, fine, don't eat it. Why would you care about anyone else eating it? I wouldn't eat dog**** but it's none of my business if someone else wants to and if they want to give me money for the privilege, I'll be more than happy to oblige! I'll serve it up to them on a silver platter, thoroughly wash my hands, and move on.

As for alcohol... since when is it only Muslims that are teetotal? Is anyone who is morally against alcohol consumption allowed to refuse to sell it? Or only Muslims? Because that would be blatant discrimination.

[Me. I Am Salman]

loads of people running their mouth of as usual without checking their facts. You do know it's actually permissible in Islam to handle pork/wine etc in a supermarket where you're working for someone else? It's only a bad thing if you're selling it in your own shop

there are no words to describe how stupid this is is but predictably the blame will be shifted on Muslims instead of M&S :rolleyes: I've never ever ever come across any other muslim person who has ever suggested this, so don't blame us we didn't ask for it.

civil war dudes. Coming soon.

such an idiotic thing to say, stop with your scaremongering rubbish

It's annoying, were just trying to live our lives but other people are speaking for us

[Marsh.]

loads of people running their mouth of as usual without checking their facts.

Ironic.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Well I'm guessing you don't know what ironic means cuz I've never done that.

[Withano]

I don't think people with a trolley-full of pork who see several tills in front of them but asks a Muslim to serve them in a hurry deserve to be seen to quickly. Similarly Christians should be permitted to refuse service to those wanting to buy a box of burning bibles. I don't see what the big deal is. If you're considerate of others, there shouldn't be a problem.

[zakman440]

I'm sorry but if you don't like it, don't work there in my opinion (I mean this towards the Muslims)

[Marsh.]

Well I'm guessing you don't know what ironic means cuz I've never done that.

http://i.imgur.com/ib4oDmX.png

[Me. I Am Salman]

Yawn.

[Vicky.]

loads of people running their mouth of as usual without checking their facts. You do know it's actually permissible in Islam to handle pork/wine etc in a supermarket where you're working for someone else? It's only a bad thing if you're selling it in your own shop

there are no words to describe how stupid this is is but predictably the blame will be shifted on Muslims instead of M&S :rolleyes: I've never ever ever come across any other muslim person who has ever suggested this, so don't blame us we didn't ask for it.


Is that true? I thought it was all fine and dandy unless you actually consumed the product. A lot of Muslim ran shops round here sell bacon, alcohol and such.



I don't think people with a trolley-full of pork who see several tills in front of them but asks a Muslim to serve them in a hurry deserve to be seen to quickly. Similarly Christians should be permitted to refuse service to those wanting to buy a box of burning bibles. I don't see what the big deal is. If you're considerate of others, there shouldn't be a problem.

A trolley full of pork...how often does that happen?

There is a problem because people are there to do a job, and religion shouldn't come into the workplace. Otherwise we would have people of every religion making excuses to get out of doing stuff. If you dont like your job, get a new one that doesn't involve doing things that mortally offend you.



To me, this has all come about because of one or two arseholes whingeing. Or its human resources or something deciding to get all offended on behalf of others (as bloody usual). I really really doubt most of the Muslim workers in M&S give a crap about handling the packaging of pork products or alcohol.

[Apple202]

what a joke

[Marsh.]

Yawn.

Exactly.

[Me. I Am Salman]

woah u sure got me there

[Marsh.]

woah u sure got me there

In English? :conf:

[Me. I Am Salman]

I dunno why you're even baiting me for no reason. Probably because I made you realise how foolish you were being in regards to the story

[Marsh.]

I dunno why you're even baiting me for no reason. Probably because I made you realise how foolish you were being in regards to the story

You didn't point out anything in regards to my response. :conf:

[Me. I Am Salman]

k

[Me. I Am Salman]

You wrote "how do people live with such petty worries" and I clearly made you look dumb after pointing out it isn't an issue at all in Islam and it's the fault of the store, so now you're fuming :) instead of like a mature adult accepting what you said was inaccurate you started to target me for no reason at all.

[Marsh.]

You wrote "how do people live with such petty worries" and I clearly made you look dumb after pointing out it isn't an issue at all in Islam and it's the fault of the store, so now you're fuming :) instead of like a mature adult accepting what you said was inaccurate you started to target me for no reason at all.

Except, Sir Salman, where did I direct that comment towards Islam? If you would engage your brain, I was referring to these specific people refusing to serve certain products.

My first comment to you was a joke because you do tend to run your mouth off. Hence my "irony" comment.

Target you? You can give sarcy comments but can't take them. And now we're back to irony... :)

[Kizzy]

I live a stones throw from Bradford, if the muslim population didn't sell alcohol in their shops they would go out of business in about 6hrs! :laugh:
I don't know how or why this is being enforced.

[Withano]

There is a problem because people are there to do a job, and religion shouldn't come into the workplace. Otherwise we would have people of every religion making excuses to get out of doing stuff. If you dont like your job, get a new one that doesn't involve doing things that mortally offend you.



All you're saying is "do something you find morally wrong or be jobless."
All M&S is saying is "If you're morally offending an employee, you may have to wait an extra 5 minutes to be served"

Honestly, you're upset because inconsiderate arseholes MAY have to wait an extra 5 minutes to be served.

[T*]

This is stupid, and if M and S are enforcing this then they shouldn't stock the items. It's ridiculous. Walking and getting some bacon that you want for breakfast, and some bubbly for Xmas, and you get to the till and they don't let you. Seems like a pretty ludicrous thing to be doing. If M&S don't want my money they can sod off.

[user104658]

All you're saying is "do something you find morally wrong or be jobless."
All M&S is saying is "If you're morally offending an employee, you may have to wait an extra 5 minutes to be served"

Honestly, you're upset because inconsiderate arseholes MAY have to wait an extra 5 minutes to be served.

Honestly, wut?? Someone is being an "inconsiderate arsehole" who is "offending an employee", by asking them to sell them a product that is on sale in the shop that they work in? This is actually, properly, mental.


How is it inconsiderate? How are you supposed to know that a staff member is a Muslim before going to the till? Are you supposed to just assume they are because of how they look? Because that's racial profiling and something that, surely, we want to steer away from making common practice. I want to look at a person and say "that's a person" - not "that's probably a Muslim because... he just looks like one". Is this how we're supposed to live our day to day lives? A never-ending stream of assumptions?

I used to work with a middle-eastern guy (or rather, I should say, a guy of middle eastern origins... he's British born)... he's probably around 45 (I think this is relevant because people are less likely to assume that younger people are religious). His name is Ahmed.

He's a life-long atheist.

If he worked in M&S and people were avoiding him because he's "probably one of them Muslims and won't sell me any bacon" he'd probably be quite offended. Well, he would probably find it ridiculous / funny too, but there would surely be some offense taken too.

A customer avoiding an empty checkout because the cashier "may" be Muslim to queue for 5 minutes at another checkout - because the cashier is white British - makes them much more of an "inconsiderate asshole", in my opinion. In fact it's basically racism. Just because it's racism with the best of intentions, doesn't make it any less racist.

A final thought: there are also white Muslims. Shocking, I know.

[arista]

I live a stones throw from Bradford, if the muslim population didn't sell alcohol in their shops they would go out of business in about 6hrs! :laugh:
I don't know how or why this is being enforced.


M&S has said sorry

[RichardG]

I really really doubt most of the Muslim workers in M&S give a crap about handling the packaging of pork products or alcohol.

Exactly, which is the worst thing about this. All it does now is raise the tensions that some people have against Muslim people in general in the UK which is a huge shame. There really isn't any need for this.

[Vicky.]

All you're saying is "do something you find morally wrong or be jobless."
All M&S is saying is "If you're morally offending an employee, you may have to wait an extra 5 minutes to be served"

Honestly, you're upset because inconsiderate arseholes MAY have to wait an extra 5 minutes to be served.

Inconsiderate arseholes...who just want to be sold a product that the shop sells? :conf:

****ing hell.

[Withano]

Inconsiderate arseholes...who just want to be sold a product that the shop sells? :conf:

****ing hell.

Yes.. I'm not sure about every M&S but there are two of them in my town. One with at least 20 tills, the other with at least 30.. I think it would take a special kind of **** to see all these tills before purchasing their goods and asking one of the few employees who may be offended by it to serve them instead of the vast majority of employees who wouldn't blink an eye.

It would be like buying a dildo and asking a nun to serve you instead of the man sat beside her in a leather gimp suit. It would only be a problem for the inconsiderate arseholes.

[Z]

Yes.. I'm not sure about every M&S but there are two of them in my town. One with at least 20 tills, the other with at least 30.. I think it would take a special kind of **** to see all these tills before purchasing their goods and asking one of the few employees who may be offended by it to serve them instead of the vast majority of employees who wouldn't blink an eye.

It would be like buying a dildo and asking a nun to serve you instead of the man sat beside her in a leather gimp suit. It would only be a problem for the inconsiderate arseholes.

I appreciate the point you're making, but I whole heartedly disagree. This policy is just encouraging people to avoid going to the till of anyone they think might be Muslim if they're trying to buy pork or alcohol. Not only is that racial profiling, but it's encouraging anti-Muslim attitudes that exist in the UK because of PC pandering policies that most Muslim people would never have dreamed of asking for because they aren't sensitive or precious about their religion and culture. It's up there with renaming Christmas to avoid offending anyone who isn't Christian. I'm not a Christian but I call it Christmas, celebrate it and enjoy it because I live in the UK and it's one of our staple holidays. Plenty of other people do the same. This is just one of those poorly thought out ideas that's supposed to benefit a minority group but actually just makes things worse for them. Most Muslims wouldn't have a problem with selling a product that M&S sells - because it's in their job description.

[Apple202]

zees right

[arista]

"Most Muslims wouldn't have a problem with selling a product that M&S sells - because it's in their job description."


Yes its just a few
that have got M&S on every news headline
Photos of M&S free ads
so all good in the end

[Withano]

I appreciate the point you're making, but I whole heartedly disagree. This policy is just encouraging people to avoid going to the till of anyone they think might be Muslim if they're trying to buy pork or alcohol. Not only is that racial profiling, but it's encouraging anti-Muslim attitudes that exist in the UK because of PC pandering policies that most Muslim people would never have dreamed of asking for because they aren't sensitive or precious about their religion and culture. It's up there with renaming Christmas to avoid offending anyone who isn't Christian. I'm not a Christian but I call it Christmas, celebrate it and enjoy it because I live in the UK and it's one of our staple holidays. Plenty of other people do the same. This is just one of those poorly thought out ideas that's supposed to benefit a minority group but actually just makes things worse for them. Most Muslims wouldn't have a problem with selling a product that M&S sells - because it's in their job description.

My only point was that it wouldn't make the buyer any less of an inconsiderate douche regardless of the policy or shop. Hence this whole story is only a problem for inconsiderate arseholes.

[Vicky.]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ms-apologises-after-saying-muslim-staff-may-refuse-to-serve-customers-pork-and-alcohol-9020982.html

Nevermind, M&S had backtracked and apologized for this ridiculous decision :)

[Livia]

I think the inconsiderate arsehole is the one taking the job in a shop selling alcohol, then refusing to sell do that job. If it's against your beliefs, go and work somewhere else.

[lime]

I have never been refused either of these by a muslim nor Do I know anyone that has.I really don't see how some people seem(not here, although the post that says civil war is coming gave me a good chuckle)to be becoming outraged over this,If I want to buy alcohol in a supermarket and there is a sign overhead saying that alcohol cannot be served at that checkout I don't join that Q.Again though I don't know any nor have heard of any muslim refusing to sell pork or alcohol

[Vicky.]

Yes.. I'm not sure about every M&S but there are two of them in my town. One with at least 20 tills, the other with at least 30.. I think it would take a special kind of **** to see all these tills before purchasing their goods and asking one of the few employees who may be offended by it to serve them instead of the vast majority of employees who wouldn't blink an eye.

It would be like buying a dildo and asking a nun to serve you instead of the man sat beside her in a leather gimp suit. It would only be a problem for the inconsiderate arseholes.

Not really, as I seriously doubt many Muslims besides possibly one or two have a problem with handling alcohol/pork that is packaged. Plus I wouldnt expect a nun to be working somewhere that sells dildos tbh, but if she did, then I would expect her to sell them :shrug:

It wouldn't be a problem if you knew beforehand who wouldnt serve you (but then we have the problem of people judging all Muslims based on this..when most wouldnt have a problem at all) but it would be a problem if you had waited in a long queue and were then told to wait in another, as you hadnt realised the server was Muslim. Unless they start wearing signs round their necks or something so the inconsiderate arseholes could avoid them, would that please you :shrug:

[RichardG]

Once you've done your shopping you just want to get it paid for and go home. The idea that you have to hang around for a couple of minutes first scanning all of the tills and trying to figure out which worker is Muslim and which isn't just because you want to buy a pork or alcohol product is totally beyond ridiculous. If handling the packaging of these products goes so strongly against your beliefs and you really cannot bring yourself to do it then don't work in a supermarket where you'll be expected to regularly do so.

Thankfully most Muslim workers would not have a problem with this and it's a shame that this has gone so public because, like I said in a previous post, it's only further encouraging the anti-Muslim attitudes that some people in this country have.

[Z]

My only point was that it wouldn't make the buyer any less of an inconsiderate douche regardless of the policy or shop. Hence this whole story is only a problem for inconsiderate arseholes.

Why would you be an inconsiderate douche for going to a supermarket and queuing to pay for your chosen groceries? That's... what you do in supermarkets. Your posts don't make any sense - how are you supposed to know if someone won't serve you because of their religious beliefs? Unless M&S puts signs above the tills saying that someone won't serve you if you have pork or alcohol on you (which to me isn't all that different from making people wear coloured triangles but whatever) - you're having to queue and wait and see if you'll have to queue again somewhere else just in case your cashier has some issue with what you're buying. What happened to the customer is always right? Why does somebody else get to dictate what I want to buy from a shop? You don't have to be of a certain age to buy pork. The law states you have to be 18 to buy alcohol and you have to do it before 10pm, and you can be IDed if you look under 25. Nothing in there about being able to refuse to serve it to someone because you don't personally drink alcohol.

[Marsh.]

All you're saying is "do something you find morally wrong or be jobless."
All M&S is saying is "If you're morally offending an employee, you may have to wait an extra 5 minutes to be served"

Honestly, you're upset because inconsiderate arseholes MAY have to wait an extra 5 minutes to be served.

Walking into a shop to give them your money to buy a product THAT THE SHOP PUTS ON ITS SHELVES is inconsiderate? :laugh2:

Surely, if someone thinks it's against their religion/beliefs to be serving/touching certain produce then surely they shouldn't be working in a shop that sells those items to begin with.

[Z]

And why is the option "do something you find morally wrong or be jobless." You could work in another department of M&S, or you could work somewhere else. It isn't a case of touch pork or be unemployed, for the love of God :laugh2:

[Jords]

If I ever got refused I think I would laugh and call them an idiot to be quite honest.

Although my Muslim flatmate (who drinks alcohol...) once was looking through my Sainsburys bag, picked up my ham and quickly put it down with a look of disgust on his face. I said to him "are you an idiot? its in a packet" in a joke sort of fashion, and he just said that he "cant" so I do wonder if theres something about handling it?

Anyway still ridiculous, poor little piggies :laugh:

[Z]

If I ever got refused I think I would laugh and call them an idiot to be quite honest.

Although my Muslim flatmate (who drinks alcohol...) once was looking through my Sainsburys bag, picked up my ham and quickly put it down with a look of disgust on his face. I said to him "are you an idiot? its in a packet" in a joke sort of fashion, and he just said that he "cant" so I do wonder if theres something about handling it?

Anyway still ridiculous, poor little piggies :laugh:

I think Islam's the worst for causing conflicting problems for young people, followed very closely by Roman Catholicism. I know plenty of Muslims who get drunk, smoke weed etc and then get funny about certain things that Islam dictates that they shouldn't do... I'm not judging anyone but c'mon, if you're gonna break some of the rules, you might as well not care about the rest. This is why I'm so glad I wasn't brought up with a religion, I'd hate to feel like I was disobeying some higher power for just living how I want to live.

[Nedusa]

This is a frankly ridiculous news story , if M&S sell it then ALL their staff must be prepared to put these goods through the Checkout. The till checkout operator is not at liberty to refuse any items regardless of personal persuasion .

If they do they should be sacked immediately , if their Manager has allowed staff to excempt certain items on personal grounds then the Manager in question should be sacked .

If the Company has allowed this then a Nationwide boycott should be enforced .

Seems in this case the Manager was at fault , I see a new job vacancy opening up in this store....!!!!

[Kyle]

I think Islam's the worst for causing conflicting problems for young people, followed very closely by Roman Catholicism. I know plenty of Muslims who get drunk, smoke weed etc and then get funny about certain things that Islam dictates that they shouldn't do... I'm not judging anyone but c'mon, if you're gonna break some of the rules, you might as well not care about the rest. This is why I'm so glad I wasn't brought up with a religion, I'd hate to feel like I was disobeying some higher power for just living how I want to live.

Just like homosexual Christians. Confuses the hell out of me. Each to their own an all that but why would you want to be part of a religious institution that doesn't like your lifestyle.


Anyway looks like M & S are taking the easy way out and saying it's their fault for not putting her in the right department. Though why you would work for a company like that if you refuse to handle certain meat items is beyond me.

[Me. I Am Salman]

I think Islam's the worst for causing conflicting problems for young people, followed very closely by Roman Catholicism. I know plenty of Muslims who get drunk, smoke weed etc and then get funny about certain things that Islam dictates that they shouldn't do... I'm not judging anyone but c'mon, if you're gonna break some of the rules, you might as well not care about the rest. This is why I'm so glad I wasn't brought up with a religion, I'd hate to feel like I was disobeying some higher power for just living how I want to live.

how would that make sense? everyone sins, it's about doing as little unlawful things as you can and doing more good deeds than bad. no one is perfect so why would they want to worsen themselves?

Just like homosexual Christians. Confuses the hell out of me. Each to their own an all that but why would you want to be part of a religious institution that doesn't like your lifestyle.

do you really think it's that simple? these people are probably brought up as Christians and once it becomes such a huge part of your life it's hard to turn away. also homosexuality being a sin is just. an. intepretation. some people don't believe it's an issue, and some branches of Christianity are more accepting. and if they do believe it's an issue, then like I said to zee, everyone sins and they'd obviously try and lessen any other sinning they do

wow are you people new to religion or something?

[Kyle]

By brought up you obviously mean indoctrinated and as for interpretation it's the biggest get out of jail free card going.

Oh dear that part of the bible looks difficult to implement I'll just disregard it...

[Marcus.]

she was stuck bettew a rock and a hard place

[Z]

how would that make sense? everyone sins, it's about doing as little unlawful things as you can and doing more good deeds than bad. no one is perfect so why would they want to worsen themselves

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - if you're happy to disregard certain rules dictated by your particular religion, e.g. drinking alcohol, then why would you kick up a fuss about e.g. not having sex before marriage? Adhering to the rules of your religion is fine, but there's this bizarre defensive logic that comes with people who are happy to disregard some aspects of their religion - so they overcompensate by being militant about other aspects. I went to school with a boy who smoked weed all the time and then he would be condescending about people getting drunk. Why not just accept that your relationship with your religion is yours and yours alone? Going off on a bit of a tangent now but my point wasn't "oh if you're going to break one rule then you might as well break all of them", it was "if you're going to break one rule then you might as well stop pretending to care about the rules and just live your life."

[Kyle]

she was stuck bettew a rock and a hard place

Or a P45.

Sorry chaps I can't ethically do my job.

[Me. I Am Salman]

By brought up you obviously mean indoctrinated and as for interpretation it's the biggest get out of jail free card going.

Oh dear that part of the bible looks difficult to implement I'll just disregard it...

You do realise how ignorant you sound? Why are atheists so critical and insulting all the time? It's so easy for you to just sit back and laugh isn't it

You have no place judging someone on their beliefs, especially when they know more about it than you do. I bet you don't even know what the verses regarding homosexuality in the bible are

[Me. I Am Salman]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - if you're happy to disregard certain rules dictated by your particular religion, e.g. drinking alcohol, then why would you kick up a fuss about e.g. not having sex before marriage? Adhering to the rules of your religion is fine, but there's this bizarre defensive logic that comes with people who are happy to disregard some aspects of their religion - so they overcompensate by being militant about other aspects. I went to school with a boy who smoked weed all the time and then he would be condescending about people getting drunk. Why not just accept that your relationship with your religion is yours and yours alone? Going off on a bit of a tangent now but my point wasn't "oh if you're going to break one rule then you might as well break all of them", it was "if you're going to break one rule then you might as well stop pretending to care about the rules and just live your life."

oh I kinda understand what you're saying now, i dunno :shrug: i guess it just makes them feel better, but yeah it's stupid and hypocritical, I haven't come across people like that though. and yeah anyone who is critical of how other people live their lives needs to mind their own business, Islam does teach to not be judgemental

[Kyle]

You do realise how ignorant you sound? Why are atheists so critical and insulting all the time? It's so easy for you to just sit back and laugh isn't it

You have no place judging someone on their beliefs, especially when they know more about it than you do. I bet you don't even know what the verses regarding homosexuality in the bible are

I've see them, and it's pretty clear it considers men having sex with one another an 'abomination'.

And so you aren't allowed an opinion on organised religion unless you belong to it?

Or maybe it's cos I disagree with you and you don't like it.

[Me. I Am Salman]

well that tells me you haven't because it is definitely not as simple as that, you should probably read this http://christianteens.about.com/od/whatthebiblesaysabout/a/wbsaHomosexual.htm

You're not giving your opinion on religion, you're giving an opinion on the relationship people have with it, like saying Christian gays are using a get out jail card when you have no clue what their reasoning is. Can you not see how that can offend some people?

And what do you mean you disagree with me and 'I don't like it'? I'm not a Christian, this has nothing to personally do with me, I'm just not a judgemental ignorant person.

[Donovan.]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - if you're happy to disregard certain rules dictated by your particular religion, e.g. drinking alcohol, then why would you kick up a fuss about e.g. not having sex before marriage? Adhering to the rules of your religion is fine, but there's this bizarre defensive logic that comes with people who are happy to disregard some aspects of their religion - so they overcompensate by being militant about other aspects. I went to school with a boy who smoked weed all the time and then he would be condescending about people getting drunk. Why not just accept that your relationship with your religion is yours and yours alone? Going off on a bit of a tangent now but my point wasn't "oh if you're going to break one rule then you might as well break all of them", it was "if you're going to break one rule then you might as well stop pretending to care about the rules and just live your life."

Yeah, I'm definitely not the best catholic, but I don't know. Growing up I was told certain 'rules' every day and those are the things that I wouldn't even think of breaking even today. Then there are sins that I feel nothing about, not scared or worried or disappointed. It probably just comes down to which 'rules' my family was comfortable enforcing.

And yes I agree so much that religion should everybody's own personal experience and beliefs. It loses it's entire meaning if your just following a certain set of rules, because you have to, instead of actually believing in it.

[Kyle]

well that tells me you haven't because it is definitely not as simple as that, you should probably read this http://christianteens.about.com/od/whatthebiblesaysabout/a/wbsaHomosexual.htm

You're not giving your opinion on religion, you're giving an opinion on the relationship people have with it, like saying Christian gays are using a get out jail card when you have no clue what their reasoning is. Can you not see how that can offend some people?

And what do you mean you disagree with me and 'I don't like it'? I'm not a Christian, this has nothing to personally do with me, I'm just not a judgemental ignorant person.

Your the first person to jump in when people criticise organised religion like your on some sort of 'crusade' to clear it's name.

You just have to face it that some people don't have a very high opinion of organised religion and if that offends anybody then good.

But don't worry you'll get the last laugh because your religion is the right one I'm sure :wink:

[Me. I Am Salman]

Why are you ignoring my post? You clearly weren't talking about religion on it's own. Or maybe you realise you were wrong and are too immature to admit so you're getting personal like a child

And yes I do because there's so much ignorance and misguided judgements on here. The point of a forum is to make discussion. If you have a problem with it deal with it cuz I'm not gonna stop :pat:

[Me. I Am Salman]

Oh and it's you're*

[Kyle]

Why are you ignoring my post? You clearly weren't talking about religion on it's own. Or maybe you realise you were wrong and are too immature to admit so you're getting personal like a child

And yes I do because there's so much ignorance and misguided judgements on here. The point of a forum is to make discussion. If you have a problem with it deal with it cuz I'm not gonna stop :pat:

Because I can't be assed to read a load of Christian speculation about twisting words in scripture to suit an agenda and don't accuse me of getting personal like a child considering you and some of your buddies kept your heads down over some of the sh*t said in the last major scandal and let another take all the rap.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Then you are in no place to make any sort of judgement. Goodbye

[Me. I Am Salman]

don't accuse me of getting personal like a child considering you and some of your buddies kept your heads down over some of the sh*t said in the last major scandal and let another take all the rap.
what? why don't you expand

[Marsh.]

and as for interpretation it's the biggest get out of jail free card going.

Oh dear that part of the bible looks difficult to implement I'll just disregard it...

:conf: That's not what it means.

It means the bible doesn't outright refer to certain things and different denominations of the church interpret something differently. Especially when it comes to the modern way of life.

How else do you think Christianity has branches off into different paths?

It's not disregarding anything it's one religion thinking something is fine and another thinking otherwise. No different to this forum where we all watch the same episode of Big Brother and come out with 100 different opinions and interpretations on it.

[Stu]

Oh and it's you're*
Sentences usually end with a full stop, too. If you're going to talk up the game, sit down and play the damn thing.

[Me. I Am Salman]

thanks for your valued contribution

[Vicky.]

Anyway...the new policy makes so much more sense. Move someone to a different department if they dont like handling items in their current one. Win win. Doesn't put customers out unnecessarily, and the staff member isnt made to feel uncomfortable.

[Amy Jade]

If people don't want to handle meat or whatever why not move them to another part of the store?

like if somebody is against handing bacon then move them to the clothes department or the fruit and veg. It wouldn't be fair to force a customer to leave an item behind or go to another line after waiting already.

[Marc]

This whole story in the OP is ridiculous

[user104658]

:conf: That's not what it means.

It means the bible doesn't outright refer to certain things and different denominations of the church interpret something differently. Especially when it comes to the modern way of life.

How else do you think Christianity has branches off into different paths?

It's not disregarding anything it's one religion thinking something is fine and another thinking otherwise. No different to this forum where we all watch the same episode of Big Brother and come out with 100 different opinions and interpretations on it.

Have to say, I agree with the other guy on this, sorry. The bible is actually pretty clear on most things. Different paths have arisen largely because people - as stated - found some aspect or other of the bible "a step too far" and so they "reinterpreted" (twisted) the scripture to make it fit another worldview. Look at the origins of protestantism; largely, Monarchs not liking the fact that people considered the Pope to be a higher authority. Further branches have spun off frtom protestantiusm in both directions; more liberal to suit a worldview of increased freedom, or stricter to push certain aspects back towards scripture.

It is about convenience. It's one thing I respect about Islam; at least they (largely) follow scripture. Christian doctrine has been warped beyond recognition, validated by dubious "reinterpretations" of the written word, but all motivated by wanting their faith to fit around changing lifestyles and values.

[Marsh.]

If you think the Bible can be applied directly to modern day life without being "interpreted" then.... we've reached an impasse.

[Ninastar]

wow, i dont think it's right for a customer to be refused service, but i think salman makes some very very good points. well done :) I like reading the different sides of the story

[Me. I Am Salman]

aw thanks, lol

[waterhog]

M & S sorry Marks and Sparks how dare you refuse a sale 26.12.13

this is controversial,
like prey being surrounded by sharks,
"Marc Bolland" won't want this commercial,
its not a pleasant advert for Marks and Sparks.
so whats the out cry,
why has the shop gone dim,
because any unjust "no sale" is a bad deny,
it really is giving bad press to the "Muslim".
its now getting beyond a joke,
job rolls are not being for-filled,
so i am going to have a poke,
M&S are employing those that are not fully skilled.
where is it going to stop,
maybe M&S should only sell "Hala Meat" approved,
of-course i am having a clear pop,
i strongly recommend this member of staff is removed.
we can not change "job tittles",
business can not be "cultural" dominated,
the customer coming first is vital,
and i hope this highlight shows "Marks and Spencer's" frustrate.

( i was reading this story on this website and i felt very sad for the customer that has gone into a shop with the good faith of purchasing a product which is on sale only to when finally get served be refused. common sence must prevail here or do you think every cashier should have the right to refuse a product if they feel it is not right ? a few examples of this could be - a person trying to purchase a few bottles of wine ? or someone daily that buys 20 cigs ? it could even stretch to naughty mags on the top shelf ? the question i want to no is - should the the cashier have the right to refuse any sale if they feel it is not appropriate or should they be forced to follow the shops code on making all sales ? i am going to try and get this to M&S if you wanted to read where i got the story from it can be found here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25488259 )

[Vicky.]

No, individual staff should not be allowed to refuse sales of certain items

But that story turned out to be a mistake made by one m&s store apparently (though personally I think they backtracked after the ridiculous policy came out) and they do the sensible thing instead. If staff dont like handling certain products, they are shifted to another department.

[Z]

No, individual staff should not be allowed to refuse sales of certain items

But that story turned out to be a mistake made by one m&s store apparently (though personally I think they backtracked after the ridiculous policy came out) and they do the sensible thing instead. If staff dont like handling certain products, they are shifted to another department.

I agree with all of this.

[Vicky.]

My threads been merged with joes D:

[Me. I Am Salman]

don't accuse me of getting personal like a child considering you and some of your buddies kept your heads down over some of the sh*t said in the last major scandal and let another take all the rap.

*is still waiting for Simple Minds to explain this*