Birth certificate information and transgenderism

[Jessica.]

Should people who were born as a different gender than they identify by be allowed to change the name and more importantly their birth gender on their birth certificate?

I heard about a woman on the news who's fighting for it in court at the moment, she was born in a male body but identifies as female, now she wants to change the information on her birth certificate to say that she was born genetically female.

[Crimson Dynamo]

No, a fact is a fact

[Munchkins]

Yes they should be allowed to
They were never that "original" gender in the first place, and to deny them the actual legal proof of their change into who they truly are, is wrong in my opinion, it also paves the way for them not being able to get as many jobs if they have a birth certificate which does not show what they look like... for instance if a female goes to a job interview but documentation says shes male shes hardly going to get a job, i mean trans people are already 4x more likely to be unemployed so..
It also makes it much more difficult in many more legal procedures when the certificate and themselves do not actually add up

To deny them of it is just wrong, and im pretty sure its allowed in this country to change the certificate, i mean its legal to get a heterosexual marriage between trans individuals so it must be.
Plus especially in a lot of the cases with the birth name, their parents actually support them on the change, and they were the ones who chose the name in their first place, so :p

[Jessica.]

I have nothing against anyone who makes an effort to become who they truly believe they are, but I believe that it's very important to keep records about things like this. Imagine the situation where someone is switched at birth? Or if someone is searching for a long lost sibling or a child they were forced to put up for adoption? I think it would be fine for the information to be ADDED to it, but I think something like a birth certificate is too important to alter. Also there are plenty people who have gone through the change and had all of the procedures to be true to who they are, then after a few months or years they make the decision to de-transition, it does happen, would they just get to change their birth cert back again?

[Munchkins]

I have nothing against anyone who makes an effort to become who they truly believe they are, but I believe that it's very important to keep records about things like this. Imagine the situation where someone is switched at birth? Or if someone is searching for a long lost sibling or a child they were forced to put up for adoption? I think it would be fine for the information to be ADDED to it, but I think something like a birth certificate is too important to alter. Also there are plenty people who have gone through the change and had all of the procedures to be true to who they are, then after a few months or years they make the decision to de-transition, it does happen, would they just get to change their birth cert back again?

Tbh the amount of cases where people actually regret the transition is grossly overexaggerated, i mean why wouldnt it be? theres hardly going to be a lot of positive reuputation for transgender individuals in the media is there, and also how would you view a situation where someone is born intersex, and are forced to have a certain gender on their birth certificate due to their parents who get to choose at birth, what about if they grow up and want to switch to the other gender, you could argue they were never either anyway
You could argue that prehaps they could keep a backup for the old certificate i suppose? but it would not be allowed to be used in any legal procedures or anything, and a new one could be issued for them now, then if anything does happen the old one can always be referred to, but it would be completely confidential to only those who have to know?

[user104658]

I don't think a birth certificate should be able to be altered for any reason other than an error at the time of printing (e.g. a friend of mines birth certificate listed the registration date as two months before the date of birth... Heh...) hut there could possibly be provision for making amendments to list something like this, but still keeping the original information available. It's an official document, nothing else.

[Jessica.]

Yes they should be allowed to
They were never that "original" gender in the first place, and to deny them the actual legal proof of their change into who they truly are, is wrong in my opinion, it also paves the way for them not being able to get as many jobs if they have a birth certificate which does not show what they look like... for instance if a female goes to a job interview but documentation says shes male shes hardly going to get a job, i mean trans people are already 4x more likely to be unemployed so..
It also makes it much more difficult in many more legal procedures when the certificate and themselves do not actually add up

To deny them of it is just wrong, and im pretty sure its allowed in this country to change the certificate, i mean its legal to get a heterosexual marriage between trans individuals so it must be.
Plus especially in a lot of the cases with the birth name, their parents actually support them on the change, and they were the ones who chose the name in their first place, so :p

But in my opinion the gender stated on the birth certificate is only a record of what their DNA states, whether they have XX or XY chromosomes. I would agree with birth certificates having a place where they write the actual chromosomes of a person rather than "male" or "female", but I don't think they should be allowed to change that record from their birth. I think people should be whatever gender is true to them, but that birth certificate is not going to stop them being who they are.

[Niamh.]

I don't think a birth certificate should be able to be altered for any reason other than an error at the time of printing (e.g. a friend of mines birth certificate listed the registration date as two months before the date of birth... Heh...) hut there could possibly be provision for making amendments to list something like this, but still keeping the original information available. It's an official document, nothing else.

Yes I agree. It should reflect all the correct information to the birth of the person. I understand that transgenders feel like they were born in the wrong body but it doesn't change the fact that they were actually born in that body, it's historical document

[Munchkins]

But in my opinion the gender stated on the birth certificate is only a record of what their DNA states, whether they have XX or XY chromosomes. I would agree with birth certificates having a place where they write the actual chromosomes of a person rather than "male" or "female", but I don't think they should be allowed to change that record from their birth. I think people should be whatever gender is true to them, but that birth certificate is not going to stop them being who they are.

It's not going to stop them being who they are but its still a massive legal document which is basically stating, yes this is who you want to be, but you're not actually, hence the original gender/chromosomes, shown on your birth certificate
It also opens up a lot of problems for stealth transexuals (those who you would never be able to tell changed, and typically have high ranking jobs, and simply no-one knows who they are) someone finding out their original gender through birth certificates or legal documentation could literally ruin their lives if it was found out as a lot of employers are sitll really transphobic

[Niamh.]

Yes they should be allowed to
They were never that "original" gender in the first place, and to deny them the actual legal proof of their change into who they truly are, is wrong in my opinion, it also paves the way for them not being able to get as many jobs if they have a birth certificate which does not show what they look like... for instance if a female goes to a job interview but documentation says shes male shes hardly going to get a job, i mean trans people are already 4x more likely to be unemployed so..
It also makes it much more difficult in many more legal procedures when the certificate and themselves do not actually add up

To deny them of it is just wrong, and im pretty sure its allowed in this country to change the certificate, i mean its legal to get a heterosexual marriage between trans individuals so it must be.
Plus especially in a lot of the cases with the birth name, their parents actually support them on the change, and they were the ones who chose the name in their first place, so :p

Do employers ever ask for a copy of a birth cert though? I never came across that before

[Jessica.]

Tbh the amount of cases where people actually regret the transition is grossly overexaggerated, i mean why wouldnt it be? theres hardly going to be a lot of positive reuputation for transgender individuals in the media is there, and also how would you view a situation where someone is born intersex, and are forced to have a certain gender on their birth certificate due to their parents who get to choose at birth, what about if they grow up and want to switch to the other gender, you could argue they were never either anyway
You could argue that prehaps they could keep a backup for the old certificate i suppose? but it would not be allowed to be used in any legal procedures or anything, and a new one could be issued for them now, then if anything does happen the old one can always be referred to, but it would be completely confidential to only those who have to know?

I have never heard of people de-transitioning in the media, I don't really hear much about gender identity at all to be honest, I am not going by statistics and I didn't say it happens often, I just know that it does happen. I believe that people are only who they believe they are, if someone is born in a male body and they truly feel inside that they are female, for example, they I would never argue with that. I just think that records are important.

Oh yeah, I actually think that keeping a record of the original and then having one that is for use as the owner wishes would probably be a much better idea, but the original would still be on record.

[Munchkins]

Do employers ever ask for a copy of a birth cert though? I never came across that before

https://www.gov.uk/check-an-employees-right-to-work-documents
On here it seems to assume that you can check a birth certificate as proof to employ??
It just is a major problem for those in stealth which is what is worrying for a lot of people, especially those transgender individuals who have married to get high careers without people knowing, if people decide to check up and see on the cencus that no-one with their name actually exists..

[Z]

Added, not altered, IMO.

[lostalex]

Birth certificates are issued by the hospital right? so i think because it's a medical document, it should be medically accurate.

[Vicky.]

Birth certificates should hold the information that was correct when the birth happened.

The fact that years down the line it becomes apparent that the person is in the wrong body is irrelevant IMO.

[Ramsay]

Trying to brush it under the carpet and say they've been a certain gender all their life is silly. Yes, you're female now and that's grand but it is a fact you were born a man

[Jake.]

Trying to brush it under the carpet and say they've been a certain gender all their life is silly. Yes, you're female now and that's grand but it is a fact you were born with a man

With a man? :laugh:

[Niamh.]

Trying to brush it under the carpet and say they've been a certain gender all their life is silly. Yes, you're female now and that's grand but it is a fact you were born with a man

Born with a man eh, the dirty thing

[arista]

In the future you will have a chip
injected at birth
so small no problems.

[lostalex]

They should just remove gender labels completely.

[Munchkins]

With some young transitioners though they do end up living as their preferred gender for way long than they ever were the old :L so it is sad that they will still be held accountable for what they were the early yearsof their life
For instance the girl in my avatar transitioned and began treatment aged 12

[Vicky.]

With some young transitioners though they do end up living as their preferred gender for way long than they ever were the old :L so it is sad that they will still be held accountable for what they were the early yearsof their life
For instance the girl in my avatar transitioned and began treatment aged 12

But they were still born physically the opposite sex. Even if they discovered at 3 year old that they were in the wrong body, that doesnt change the fact that they were born their original gender, if that make sense.

And noone even bothers with birth certificates anyway really. Its not like you have to show them everywhere and everyone would know?

[lostalex]

With some young transitioners though they do end up living as their preferred gender for way long than they ever were the old :L so it is sad that they will still be held accountable for what they were the early yearsof their life
For instance the girl in my avatar transitioned and began treatment aged 12

Well if there was no transphobia then they wouldn't feel any need to try to hide their birth gender...

The problem is really the transphobia. Hiding their birth gender isn't solving the problem of transphobia in general. Actually hiding their birth gender is actually being cowardly imo. Trans people shouldn't hide the fact that they are trans, it just makes it more mysterious and taboo and contributes to the stereotype that they are trying to "trick" people.

[Munchkins]

But they were still born physically the opposite sex. Even if they discovered at 3 year old that they were in the wrong body, that doesnt change the fact that they were born their original gender, if that make sense.

And noone even bothers with birth certificates anyway really. Its not like you have to show them everywhere and everyone would know?

But a lot of really cruel people actually do deep research to out people who are trans and try to ruin their careers, and surely there'd be some way of them being able to work out things and a birth certificate is proof
Atleast it isnt a worry for trans people in this country, i just think they should keep the old one as a record but produce a new birth certificate for their preferred gender

[Vicky.]

But a lot of really cruel people actually do deep research to out people who are trans and try to ruin their careers, and surely there'd be some way of them being able to work out things and a birth certificate is proof
Atleast it isnt a worry for trans people in this country, i just think they should keep the old one as a record but produce a new birth certificate for their preferred gender

But thats essentially the same as dong away with the old record? As the new one would be used instead.

[Munchkins]

Well if there was no transphobia then they wouldn't feel any need to try to hide their birth gender...

The problem is really the transphobia. Hiding their birth gender isn't solving the problem of transphobia in general. Actually hiding their birth gender is actually being cowardly imo. Trans people shouldn't hide the fact that they are trans, it just makes it more mysterious and taboo.

Why shouldnt they hide the trans label? just because you are trans doesnt mean you have to be out and proud flounting the label, some want to live in stealth and live just as a normal woman would.. they dont want to be defined as trans even if they are they want to be defined as a woman, who was born with a birth defect as some say aha
Gay people dont need to go around telling people they are gay so why do trans people need to make it a fact they are??

[Munchkins]

But thats essentially the same as dong away with the old record? As the new one would be used instead.

Yes but in cases, where like Jessica said someone de-transitions, then there is still the old record

[Ramsay]

With a man? :laugh:

Born with a man eh, the dirty thing

Was gonna say born with a penis but it didn't sound right in my head :laugh:

[Vicky.]

Nah I think it should stay the same regardless.

I dont agree that if I should decide tomorrow that I want to become a bloke I could change my birth certificate to say I was born a boy.

I do know trangenderism is usually much more than that, but when I think transgender, I think of that bradley manning bloke, who just decided he was female to get in a different jail.

Also what do we do about those who change genders, then change back? Keep doing new birth certificates?

[lostalex]

Why shouldnt they hide the trans label? just because you are trans doesnt mean you have to be out and proud flounting the label, some want to live in stealth and live just as a normal woman would.. they dont want to be defined as trans even if they are they want to be defined as a woman, who was born with a birth defect as some say aha
Gay people dont need to go around telling people they are gay so why do trans people need to make it a fact they are??

because it's basically erasing your history and the next generation gets no benefit. it's like kicking down the ladder after you climb up. If there's nothing to be ashamed about being trans, then why would you hide it? It's part of your story, a very important part, and denying it, burying your head in the sand, and acting like it didn't happen is very selfish and delusional.

I say stand up and be counted.

I agree that no one should be forced though.

[Munchkins]

because it's basically erasing your history and the next generation gets no benefit. it's like kicking down the ladder after you climb up.

The amount of stealth people is so low anyway, so there is still trans role models people can look up to such as Laverne Cox & Carmen Carrera.. however i do see some peoples points that usually the ones who hide in stealth and dont tell anyone are the ones who you would never be able to tell and just look like normal women, so in a way, its hiding the best examples of those who can pass, and therefore the media can only show those who dont pass at all and still look like men, so i do still see that viewpoint, but they shouldnt be forced into the trans out and open category just because they are :)

[Munchkins]

Nah I think it should stay the same regardless.

I dont agree that if I should decide tomorrow that I want to become a bloke I could change my birth certificate to say I was born a boy.

I do know trangenderism is usually much more than that, but when I think transgender, I think of that bradley manning bloke, who just decided he was female to get in a different jail.

Also what do we do about those who change genders, then change back? Keep doing new birth certificates?

They dont suddenly just decide tomorrow though do they? how would you feel if you woke up tomorrow and were a man lol.
And he didnt just decide he was female lol its not as simple as that they do have to undergo severe psychological testing before they are even allowed to see gender therapists, they have to go through the mental health service first, then psychologists with gender therapists before even being allowed any access to treatments
and thats why i said, that the original one should be kept in the case of a de transition

[AnnieK]

I have a transgender employee - for ID he brought his passport and name change document but his passport was still in his female gender which was not a problem for me as an employer but I guess it would be pretty awkward at airport check ins and passport controls.
I do believe the birth certificate should remain but an addendum added to it,

[Vicky.]

Also heres something I just thought of when rinsing my hair dye off..

If we were to change birth certificates for trans people, is it only post-ops? Many pre-ops would want the same treatment and saying no to them would be basically saying 'you cant afford the op, or are on a waiting list, so you don't have the same privilege as others trapped in the wrong body'

And if we allowed anyone who claimed to be in the wrong body to do it, it wold really be open to abuse.

It just doesnt make sense to do it, and I would bet the majority of transgendered people wouldnt even think twice about this tbh.

[Munchkins]

Also heres something I just thought of when rinsing my hair dye off..

If we were to change birth certificates for trans people, is it only post-ops? Many pre-ops would want the same treatment and saying no to them would be basically saying 'you cant afford the op, or are on a waiting list, so you don't have the same privilege as others trapped in the wrong body'

And if we allowed anyone who claimed to be in the wrong body to do it, it wold really be open to abuse.

It just doesnt make sense to do it, and I would bet the majority of transgendered people wouldnt even think twice about this tbh.

Tbh though, obviously with birth certificates it is going to come down to genitalia as that is what people define as Male or female, so theres no way working around that for Birth certificates, you could argue for other documentation though that Pre-op should be considered too but that opens far too many loopholes
From the ones i speak to regularly online, things like this are a big issue, but obviously thats not speaking on account for everyone

[Vicky.]

I dont see why it would be an issue though, they know that physically they were born that gender. And medical records must go on that.

Its kinda like saying 'this baby was born with a heart defect, but it has been sorted now and the child in question would like to forget it, so lets remove it from our records'

Before anyone starts too, Im not saying trangenderism is a defect or anything, just trying to put my view across :p

[Munchkins]

I dont see why it would be an issue though, they know that physically they were born that gender. And medical records must go on that.

Its kinda like saying 'this baby was born with a heart defect, but it has been sorted now and the child in question would like to forget it, so lets remove it from our records'

Before anyone starts too, Im not saying trangenderism is a defect or anything, just trying to put my view across :p

Because its a mental trauma to them that they born that physical gender, so any documentation showing that is obviously to some going to bring that back, and its still a part showing, you will never truly be that gender as this shows you were born this way
It'd be interesting to know what article Jessica is referring to as im pretty sure this is not an issue in the UK and the certicates are changed, plus the whole thing about the records, transgenderism really isnt that big, the amount of records changed, arent going to be that large of a number, so its not loads of history being changed

[Kizzy]

No, not rewrite the original document maybe have an amended one, but it be noted on it the change?

[Vicky.]

Because its a mental trauma to them that they born that physical gender, so any documentation showing that is obviously to some going to bring that back, and its still a part showing, you will never truly be that gender as this shows you were born this way
It'd be interesting to know what article Jessica is referring to as im pretty sure this is not an issue in the UK and the certicates are changed, plus the whole thing about the records, transgenderism really isnt that big, the amount of records changed, arent going to be that large of a number, so its not loads of history being changed

But they WERE born physically that gender.

Yeah it might be traumatising to think of and stuff, but medical records should be correct regardless of how upsetting it is for people.

[Jessica.]

It'd be interesting to know what article Jessica is referring to as im pretty sure this is not an issue in the UK and the certicates are changed

I was referencing the freshly reopened case of this woman; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

[Munchkins]

But they WERE born physically that gender.

Yeah it might be traumatising to think of and stuff, but medical records should be correct regardless of how upsetting it is for people.

How would you define it for intersex people, i know this isnt the same topic, but those who are not born an actual gender and their parents then choose for them, and then later some of them choose to change gender

Well then whats the problem with creating a new document, but keeping the old one? you brought up the problem of people switching back and forth, but that is such a small number, its not like theres going to be epidemic levels of new birth certificates being made

I'm probably going to stop debating on here, im just repeating myself, and its a topic, i always get so passionate about and wont end debating:joker:

[Vicky.]

I was referencing the freshly reopened case of this woman; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

'According to Foy, she had been born a "congenitally disabled woman" and the error recording her sex on her birth certificate was not only embarrassing to her but also could interfere with her constitutional rights, as she would be unable to ever choose to marry a man'

Surely thats not right? I thought after the surgery and stuff, in all legal standpoints an such you were viewed as the gender you are NOW physically?

[Marsh.]

I don't think a birth certificate should be altered. That's you at the time of birth.

Anything you change afterwards shouldn't affect it.

[Munchkins]

'According to Foy, she had been born a "congenitally disabled woman" and the error recording her sex on her birth certificate was not only embarrassing to her but also could interfere with her constitutional rights, as she would be unable to ever choose to marry a man'

Surely thats not right? I thought after the surgery and stuff, in all legal standpoints an such you were viewed as the gender you are NOW physically?

Me too?? well thats how it is in this country as i know transgender individuals can marry.. for instance a mtf could marry a genetic male in a hetero sexual marriage in this country
im confused

[Vicky.]

How would you define it for intersex people, i know this isnt the same topic, but those who are not born an actual gender and their parents then choose for them, and then later some of them choose to change gender

Well then whats the problem with creating a new document, but keeping the old one? you brought up the problem of people switching back and forth, but that is such a small number, its not like theres going to be epidemic levels of new birth certificates being made

I'm probably going to stop debating on here, im just repeating myself, and its a topic, i always get so passionate about and wont end debating:joker:

Intersex as in hermaphrodites? Thats a interesting question and I really dont know..I didnt even know the parents got to chose the sex to put on the birth certificate tbh, would have thought there was a way of saying 'both' in a nicer way

The problem with creating a new one but keeping the old one is that only the new one would be used, so then the old one is pointless? Adapting the original one to say 'born male, now female, would be accurate, but I dont see how that would help, given that the apparent reaosn for changing it is so they dont remember the traumatic experience of changing :S

[Munchkins]

Intersex as in hermaphrodites? Thats a interesting question and I really dont know..I didnt even know the parents got to chose the sex to put on the birth certificate tbh, would have thought there was a way of saying 'both' in a nicer way,

Well i know that when some intersex people are born, and they dont have a specific gender, sometimes the doctors professions consult, and they make the genitalia into one or another gender
with hermaphrodites, i know in Australia they now legally have a option for non gendered or something like that

[Jessica.]

Intersex as in hermaphrodites? Thats a interesting question and I really dont know..I didnt even know the parents got to chose the sex to put on the birth certificate tbh, would have thought there was a way of saying 'both' in a nicer way,

Yeah, they have to choose and they usually pick whatever they see on the outside, I saw a post by a girl on reddit who had been born with both external organs, she was a Muslim and was raised as a boy, then in her teens she was found to be genetically female and have ovaries and a womb, she was transitioned not by her own choice and is now treated completely differently by everyone because of the religious aspect, it was quite sad to read.

[AnnieK]

I think the UK issue amended certificates:
Gender Recognition Act 2004

The Gender Recognition Act (GRA) gives legal recognition to transsexual people in their acquired gender.

If an application to the Gender Recognition Panel is successful, the transsexual person's gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender and they will receive a full gender recognition certificate (GRC). The GRC allows for the creation of a modified birth certificate reflecting the holder's new gender.

In specified circumstances the GRA prohibits disclosure of the fact that someone has applied for a GRC or disclosure of someone's gender prior to the acquisition of the GRC. Such disclosure constitutes a criminal offence liable to a fine.

The privacy provisions apply in most circumstances where the information is received by someone acting in an official capacity. The exceptions are very narrowly drawn, so it should generally be assumed that if you are a employer, manager or colleague; or if you are working in any capacity for an official body or service provider, the law will apply.

Unlawful disclosure applies not only to direct word of mouth communication but also to uncontrolled access to paper or computer files. A transsexual person may consent to you disclosing the information if they decide that it is in their interests to do so. However, such consent must be explicit. It may not be assumed.

As a general rule it is best to agree what to do with information when an employee or service user informs you that they have applied for or obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate. This may often necessitate physically destroying records that reveal inappropriate information, or sealing them for use in specified exceptional cases.

source: http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/your-rights/transgender/transgender-what-the-law-says/#GRA

[Jack_]

They should just remove gender labels completely.

Now there's a good idea.

And with that the concept of sexuality would too be eradicated and all the discrimination that comes with it. Bliss.

[Pete.]

They can keep a 'birth certificate' - an original certificate. They can always get a new certificate but the original can be there for documentation - I don't see the probelm

[Firewire]

No, it's a birth certificate. It should reflect the information of your birth. You should, however, be able to alter your name via deed poll and go by a different name on your passport etc. but I believe that the birth certificate shouldn't be altered.

[Z]

I'm perhaps missing the point but is there some legal benefit or reason why people want their birth certificates changed to reflect their new gender? Because if it's just for person preferences then I'm firmly in the no camp. It'd be like getting a nose job and then editing every single photo of you prior to getting your nose fixed photoshopped - ultimately, what's the point? Your birth certificate is a piece of paper. It would be a lie to say that you were born female/male if you weren't. It's just a statement of facts, essentially.