Man starved to death after benfits cut

[smeagol]

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/11043378.Man_starved_after_benefits_were_cut/

2nd one to die this week that i know of. as i said before what cameron is doing is no different than h hitler trying to kill of the weak and the poor.

[Kazanne]

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/11043378.Man_starved_after_benefits_were_cut/

2nd one to die this week that i know of. as i said before what cameron is doing is no different than h hitler trying to kill of the weak and the poor.

Sorry smeagol,but I don't think you can blame this solely on Cameron.Where were his carers,family etc?:hugesmile:

[Jesus.]

Sorry smeagol,but I don't think you can blame this solely on Cameron.Where were his carers,family etc?:hugesmile:

They were busy invading Poland.

[Kazanne]

They were busy invading Poland.

Well they should be ashamed of themselves:hugesmile:,surely though someone should have picked up on this,I find it a bit strange.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Well they should be ashamed of themselves:hugesmile:,surely though someone should have picked up on this,I find it a bit strange.

Did you not read the article?

They sent him £250 when they found out he had lost his benefits but they only found out a few weeks before he passed. The guy suffered with so many personal, mental health conditions that he had already become majorly ill.

Not everyone can depend on mammy and daddy and neither expect to also not everyones parents can afford to pay their own and someone elses rent.

[arista]

Did you not read the article?

They sent him £250 when they found out he had lost his benefits but the guy suffered with so many personal, mental health conditions that he had already become majorly ill.

Really dumb comment to make, not everyone can depend on mammy and daddy and neither expect to also not everyones parents can afford to pay their own and someone elses rent.


Bang On Right
DL85

[Josy]

Poor guy.

ATOS are absolutely pathetic as are the DWP, they never ever contact claimants own doctors that have been dealing with them and treating their illnesses for years and who would know without a doubt whether their own patients were capable for work or not, instead opting to go with their own staff opinion's when most of the time these people doing the medicals aren't even proper fully qualified doctors, even after all these inquests and enquiries into them why the hell are they still insisting on using them?

[Kate!]

I heard on the grapevine that ATOS has been scrapped, I'll look for a link.

[Josy]

I heard on the grapevine that ATOS has been scrapped, I'll look for a link.

I see this at the bottom of that article

What ATOS does
•Atos undertakes benefits assessments for the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) called work capability assessments – most people are re-assessed once a year. The DWP then makes a decision based on Atos recommendations.
•Over the last few weeks protests have been held outside more than 100 Atos centres including its Oxford offices in St Aldate’s.
•Last week Atos revealed it wanted to quit its £500m Government contract early because of threats made to its staff.
•Yesterday, it was reported in several national newspapers that Atos staff have been told to leave all current employment and support allowance claimants on their benefit, without repeat medical checks, until another company can be found to do assessments.

[Josy]

If that's the case though and another company is brought in it will just be the exact same in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they just renamed ATOS to something else.

If your own doctors states that you are unfit to work then that should be the end of it IMO.

[smeagol]

Did you not read the article?

They sent him £250 when they found out he had lost his benefits but they only found out a few weeks before he passed. The guy suffered with so many personal, mental health conditions that he had already become majorly ill.

Not everyone can depend on mammy and daddy and neither expect to also not everyones parents can afford to pay their own and someone elses rent.


That's the biggest problem with the powers that be. cameron and co is they seem to think people have support. because they did. when that's not the case, its the same with the age rulues he is enforcing for the young.
The people who have no one or family who cant help will be most effected. which is the very people who need help the most.

[joeysteele]

I lay part of the blame for these sad incidents at the door of the Govt.
When David Cameron appointed as work and pensions secretary a failed, heartless and arrogant individual as Ian Duncan Smith it is only to be expected.

Ian Duncan Smith dismisses any warnings from carers and organisations as simply not the case and he goes on pursuing relentlessly his really heartless and cowardly attack on the weakest,poorest and most vulnerable in society.
Especially the genuinely sick and disabled too then these incidents will keep happening.

How and why this heartless and poorest excuse for a politician remains to have any power at all over peoples lives and incomes is totally beyond me.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/11043378.Man_starved_after_benefits_were_cut/

2nd one to die this week that i know of. as i said before what cameron is doing is no different than h hitler trying to kill of the weak and the poor.

It is different and its a rather silly and hysterical comparison

[Kazanne]

Did you not read the article?

They sent him £250 when they found out he had lost his benefits but they only found out a few weeks before he passed. The guy suffered with so many personal, mental health conditions that he had already become majorly ill.

Not everyone can depend on mammy and daddy and neither expect to also not everyones parents can afford to pay their own and someone elses rent.

No need to be calling it a dumb comment because it doesn't suit you,I'm not saying it's not a terrible thing to happen ,of course it is,but he was obviously failed by more people than Cameron which is what the poster suggested and nothing to do with Hitler,I don't even know if he had parents but if he did why weren't they looking after him or making sure he was cared for,was he homeless?where did he live?

[Cherie]

No need to be calling it a dumb comment because it doesn't suit you,I'm not saying it's not a terrible thing to happen ,of course it is,but he was obviously failed by more people than Cameron which is what the poster suggested and nothing to do with Hitler,I don't even know if he had parents but if he did why weren't they looking after him or making sure he was cared for,was he homeless?where did he live?

I agree it is very easy to lay the blame at the door of the government, yes it was awful that his benefits were reduced, but given he was such a vulnerable adult was sending him 250.00 as a way of helping him anywhere near enough? why didn't someone intervene on his behalf, why were his family not checking on him to see if he was okay on a weekly basis, though he needed cash he probably needed a bit of proper care more? Why was he on his own if he had all these conditions?

[Kazanne]

[/B]

I agree it is very easy to lay the blame at the door of the government, yes it was awful that his benefits were reduced, but given he was such a vulnerable adult was sending him 250.00 as a way of helping him anywhere near enough? why didn't someone intervene on his behalf, why were his family not checking on him to see if he was okay on a weekly basis, though he needed cash he probably needed a bit of proper care more? Why was he on his own if he had all these conditions?

My thoughts exactly Cherie.:hugesmile:

[Cherie]

My thoughts exactly Cherie.:hugesmile:

it's a pass the buck world now, somehow the government are supposed to play all roles in peoples lives via cash payouts.

[thesheriff443]

this man was living independently, but it seems he had no care plan in place.
atos is is clearly flawed, if he had a care worker, im sure they would of helped his situation.
he would give the cash away that his family would give him, if they kept a closer eye on him maybe they could of helped him.

very sad all round.

[Kizzy]

Care in the community?...
I hope ATOS are on their way out, along with this government ..good riddance

[smeagol]

It is different and its a rather silly and hysterical comparison

not silly it all. its all designed to kill of the poor and needy.

its a shame people are so blind as to not see what is going on outside thir own windows.

[smeagol]

[/B]

I agree it is very easy to lay the blame at the door of the government, yes it was awful that his benefits were reduced, but given he was such a vulnerable adult was sending him 250.00 as a way of helping him anywhere near enough? why didn't someone intervene on his behalf, why were his family not checking on him to see if he was okay on a weekly basis, though he needed cash he probably needed a bit of proper care more? Why was he on his own if he had all these conditions?

The guy has the right to live on his own with the means provided for him.
no compassion there just assume everybody has a family with tons of cash. cameron fan i guess

[joeysteele]

It is the far too severe reforms of the welfare and benefits changes that are now for the first time leaving claimants with nothing at all for weeks as it gets sorted out.
Almost every week,organisations there to help, who have become fewer since this Govts cutbacks too, are warning of these very things happening because the reforms are too hurried and not planned properly.

I myself in the company I work in at present as to Law,have come across people left with nothing,yet still the bills are coming in and rents have to be paid.
I have learned of people being told they are too fit for ESA but not fit enough for Jobseekers allowance.
Meanwhile left with no income until it gets sorted.

Also, some people just get so depressed with it all they just drift away from society and then we get tragedies like the one highlighted in this thread.
Often families don't know their loved ones are even in this fix.

The only people who brought in these reforms are this pathetic excuse for a Govt, with severe and ridiculous testing for fitnss as to work too.
This Govt has been told time and time again by loads of organisations and those caring for people with problems, that massive, and more to the point, unfair and unjust distress is being caused.
They just arrogantly and heartlessly dismiss it and press on regardless.

When the dust settles on these benefit reforms and history judges this Govt as to them,it will be seen as one of the most unjust and heartless acts ever brought into existence.
I am appalled at some of the cases I have come across,they read like nightmares a great many of them.

I really cannot wait for this bunch of arrogant,pompous incompetents to get turfed out in 2015, the alternative may not look a great deal attractive at times but at least they will hopefully have and bring back some compassion to their policies,unlike the parties in this coalition.

[user104658]

It is the far too severe reforms of the welfare and benefits changes that are now for the first time elaving claimants with nothing at all for weeks as it gets sorted out.
Almost every week,organisations there to help, who have become fewer since this Govts cutbacks too, are warning of these very things happening becasue the reforms are too hurried and not planned properly.

I myself in the company I work in at present as to Law,have come across people left with nothing,yet still the bills are coming in and rents have to be paid.
I have learned of people being told they are too fit for ESA but not fit enough for Jobseekers allowance.
Meanwhile left with no income until it gets sorted.

Also, some people just get so depressed with it all they just drift away from society and then we get tragedies like the one highlighted in this thread.
Often families don't know their loved ones are even in this fix.

The only people who brought in these reforms are this pathetic excuse for a Govt, with severe and ridiculous testing for fitnss as to work too.
This Govt has been told time and time again by loads of organisations and those caring for people with problems, that massive, and more to the point, unfair and unjust distress is being caused.
They just arrogantly and heartlessly dismiss it and press on regardless.

When the dust settles on these benefit reforms and history judges this Govt as to them,it will be seen as one of the most unjust and heartless acts ever brought into existence.
I am appalled at some of the cases I have come across,they read like nightmares a great many of them.

I really cannot wait for this bunch of arrogant,pompous incompetents to get turfed out in 2015, the alternative may not look a great deal attractive at times but at least they will hopefully have and bring back some compassion to their policies,unlike the parties in this coalition.

I completely agree with this - plus people being pushed down into "their place" for decades so they just lie down and accept what's happening to them mostly peacefully.

"Respect" for authority, fear of consequences, so strong that they over-ride basic survival instinct. If you are genuinely screwed - if you are FACING DEATH - drop off the radar and bloody well TAKE what you want from a society that doesn't care about you. The worst that will happen is prison or death - and you're facing the latter anyway.

[lostalex]

he can't have been that hungry, why didn't he try eating his own limbs? that's what a truly desperate man would have done.

[InOne]

not silly it all. its all designed to kill of the poor and needy.

its a shame people are so blind as to not see what is going on outside thir own windows.

It's typical blaming the victim for circumstances out of their control like a lot of Tories like to do.

Something really does need to be done about ATOS though, it's becoming brutal and from the times I've been in the past only gets worse and worse.

[Cherie]

The guy has the right to live on his own with the means provided for him.
no compassion there just assume everybody has a family with tons of cash. cameron fan i guess

You completely missed my point Smeagy. I never said he didn't have the right to live on his own, and neither did I say the family should have provided cash, in fact I said quite the opposite in that where was their "support" for him (not cash based), you do not die from hunger in a week or a month, why were they not seeing him and helping him by visiting and knowing what state he was in? They sent 250.00 so they did help him out financially but given his phobia of food that didn't help as they already acknowledge in the article that he gave money away.


and no I am not a Cameron Fan! The family cannot put all blame onto the Government,(and I agree Atos are a hideous organisation) but the family are also at fault as well for not keeping a closer eye on their son/brother who they concede was vulnerable.

[Kizzy]

The family weren't aware of the deterioration until it was too late it was the extra stress that maybe exacerbated his existing phobias around food? Prior to the ATOS decision his BMI was only 14.1....
The communication between ATOS and healthcare professionals is what is killing people.

[Cherie]

The family weren't aware of the deterioration until it was too late it was the extra stress that maybe exacerbated his existing phobias around food? Prior to the ATOS decision his BMI was only 14.1....
The communication between ATOS and healthcare professionals is what is killing people.

So you don't think his family have any responsibility towards him at all? care is all down to the state?

[Kizzy]

Well I don't know the timescales involved, or how far apart they lived so can't really say cherie.
He had been living independently successfully since 2006, that suggests to me they maybe didn't feel that he was at such an increased risk.

[Cherie]

Well I think it is safe to say they had very little involvement for at least 4 months, as he died for months after his benefits stopped. They acknowledge that he "gave money away" so who is to say if he was still receiving full benefit he wouldn't have given it all away at any rate. They must be live fairly close as

His family are meeting Oxford West and Abingdon MP Nicola Blackwood next Friday to try to find out why he was declared fit for work. Ms Wood said they may consider legal proceedings.

sorry to be cynical but it now looks like they are looking for compensation for his death when the "food phobia" he had probably contributed more than the lack of benefit. It seems sending him 250 quid absolves them of all famililial responsibility.

I repeat that whilst ATOS should never had insisted he was fit for work, his family had alot more insight into his problems and should have given him a bit more non financial support.

[Kizzy]

They must live close as they're visiting with his local MP?
lots of people have limited involvement for that timescale they may have had contact via telephone ...
I agree with the court action and think it's important if only to highlight the fact ATOS failed to take into consideration the opinion of his doctor.

[Livia]

It's a terrible thing to have happened in one of the richest countries in the world. However, the comparison to Hitler is rather a stupid one.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

No need to be calling it a dumb comment because it doesn't suit you,I'm not saying it's not a terrible thing to happen ,of course it is,but he was obviously failed by more people than Cameron which is what the poster suggested and nothing to do with Hitler,I don't even know if he had parents but if he did why weren't they looking after him or making sure he was cared for,was he homeless?where did he live?

Are you talking about Hitler here or the the man in the article?

[Cherie]

They must live close as they're visiting with his local MP?
lots of people have limited involvement for that timescale they may have had contact via telephone ...
I agree with the court action and think it's important if only to highlight the fact ATOS failed to take into consideration the opinion of his doctor.

MP s are contactable by phone too ! Making the time to visit the MP but no time or too far too visit their relative says so much to me :tongue:

[Kizzy]

MP s are contactable by phone too ! Making the time to visit the MP but no time or too far too visit their relative says so much to me :tongue:

Yes, it says they have to discuss failings within ATOS face to face. :tongue:

[daniel-lewis-1985]

MP s are contactable by phone too ! Making the time to visit the MP but no time or too far too visit their relative says so much to me :tongue:

You don't know enough about this family to be making such comments really though do you. All the info we have is his mother is a single parent and he has a sister, that's it.

You don't know what life they lead, all we do know though is his benefits were stopped when they 100% should not have been. He has been failed by the system and unfortunately ended up dead.

Poor guy.

[Josy]

MP s are contactable by phone too ! Making the time to visit the MP but no time or too far too visit their relative says so much to me :tongue:

Since the man was 44 years old then the parents might be too elderly, frail, have illnesses of their own. Without knowing the details or the families circumstances then it's pretty unfair to jump to conclusions and it also only states the family are meeting the MP it doesn't say where, the MP could be visiting them.

Money isn't even the issue, the fact that the government, the DWP and this ATOS bunch are continuously failing the sick and vulnerable in this country is the big problem here.

[Cherie]

Since the man was 44 years old then the parents might be too elderly, frail, have illnesses of their own. Without knowing the details or the families circumstances then it's pretty unfair to jump to conclusions and it also only states the family are meeting the MP it doesn't say where, the MP could be visiting them.

Money isn't even the issue, the fact that the government, the DWP and this ATOS bunch are continuously failing the sick and vulnerable in this country is the big problem here.

How can you say money isn't an issue when the headline states he died due to loss of benefits? The press are making it into an issue about money when there really is so much more to this story, his food phobia being one of the glaringly obvious ones to me.

[Josy]

How can you say money isn't an issue when the headline states he died due to loss of benefits? The press are making it into an issue about money when there really is so much more to this story, his food phobia being one of the glaringly obvious ones to me.

Because benefits don't always have to mean money and nothing else Cherie, I said that because this is what you posted earlier in the thread..

it's a pass the buck world now, somehow the government are supposed to play all roles in peoples lives via cash payouts

Having his benefits stopped never just meant he had no cash, it also stopped his housing benefits and if he had still been receiving DLA then the social work department knowing he was vulnerable could have possibly sent home carers out to make sure he was safe, had things in to eat and if they would have seen the weight he was and reported it I'm pretty sure they could have got him signed into a hospital.

[Cherie]

Because benefits don't always have to mean money and nothing else Cherie, I said that because this is what you posted earlier in the thread..



Having his benefits stopped never just meant he had no cash, it also stopped his housing benefits and if he had still been receiving DLA then the social work department knowing he was vulnerable could have possibly sent home carers out to make sure he was safe, had things in to eat and if they would have seen the weight he was and reported it I'm pretty sure they could have got him signed into a hospital.


yes I agree with all that Josy, but in this day you just can't expect the agencies to get it right, if you have a vulnerable or aged adult in your family you have to get stuck in to see that what should be happening is, there are so many box tickers in jobs with no ability to see beyond what they see as their job. I see alot of it in the School I work in, if parents are lax and don't chase things up the child can miss out on alot of help that is available to them. I wouldn't trust any agency to sort anything out, sad but true these days.

[Kizzy]

This particular agency are being paid 500 million ... you would think for that they would be expected to get it right wouldn't you?

[Vicky.]

This particular agency are being paid 500 million ... you would think for that they would be expected to get it right wouldn't you?

They are getting it 'right'

Their job is to kick people off benefits no matter what

Thats exactly what they do. They are doing what they get paid to. Though how their 'doctors' sleep at night I will never know. ATOS are trying to back out of their contract due to death threats made towards their staff apparently..while I disagree with death threats, I do find it understandable in this case, given how many deaths their callous decisions have CAUSED.

[Kizzy]

I agree vicky, the remit was not so much to assess but just to blanket sweep everyone on DLA and ESA... You are seen as disposable and if the process is too stressful and you fall through the net, then that's all the better you're off the books.

[Vicky.]

If it was about actually asessing illnesses, no way would the word of a randomer who has had a 3 week course in 'recognising disability' be believed over the word of a qualified consultant who has like 7 years of uni plus loads of experience under their belts..

Yes GPs can feel forced to write sick notes at times (not as often as the government would have you believe though I suspect), but there is absolutely no reason at all to ignore hospital consultants notes/advice. In my opinion anyway.

[Cherie]

This particular agency are being paid 500 million ... you would think for that they would be expected to get it right wouldn't you?

Unfortunately no the amount of money paid is immaterial, people need to understand that these agencies are staffed in the main by jobworths and every dodgy decision needs challenging.

[Kizzy]

Poeple do understand, which is why 1000s of people protest about their improper decisions regularly up and down the country.

[joeysteele]

It would be a lot easier for all organisations to look out for these vulnerable individuals and possibly deal with problems more quickly if there hadn't been this severe and heartless reform programme done in such haste and with absolutely atrocious planning by Ian Duncan Smith for this Govt.

However the welfare agencies have been weakened, in some parts of the Country now welfare rights and other welfare organisations don't do anything with benefit forms now.
People are being left right on on a limb when decisions like this as to benefits reduced and removed, then likely panic, stress and depression can set in and the downward spiral can be too far down to save the individuals as with this example in this thread.

The environment for these reductions of benefits/benefit cuts and the re assessments of those on benefits, is hitting the most vulnerable more and more.
The 'only' organisation that created that heartless environment by its cruel reforms and absurd fitness questions and tests is this coalition Govt.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

They need to stop looking at stats, go into the community's to meet these people and not see them as a statistic.

Actually go out and talk to the families who's relatives had died because they couldn't attend a poxy little meeting with them and they threatened to stop their benefits.

A slap of reality is what they need.

[Cherie]

Poeple do understand, which is why 1000s of people protest about their improper decisions regularly up and down the country.

Yes but in this guys case nobody did, his family had an expectation that the State would support him and sort him out.

[Cherie]

It would be a lot easier for all organisations to look out for these vulnerable individuals and possibly deal with problems more quickly if there hadn't been this severe and heartless reform programme done in such haste and with absolutely atrocious planning by Ian Duncan Smith for this Govt.

However the welfare agencies have been weakened, in some parts of the Country now welfare rights and other welfare organisations don't do anything with benefit forms now.
People are being left right on on a limb when decisions like this as to benefits reduced and removed, then likely panic, stress and depression can set in and the downward spiral can be too far down to save the individuals as with this example in this thread.

The environment for these reductions of benefits/benefit cuts and the re assessments of those on benefits, is hitting the most vulnerable more and more.
The 'only' organisation that created that heartless environment by its cruel reforms and absurd fitness questions and tests is this coalition Govt.

and this brings me back to the point that if you have a vulnerable adult in your family you cannot trust the agencies or the state to support them anymore, you have to be involved whether you are 2 miles or 200 miles away from them, you have to make calls on their behalf, follow everything up, because even positive decisions can be left hanging for months in someones intray, or get forgotton.

[joeysteele]

and this brings me back to the point that if you have a vulnerable adult in your family you cannot trust the agencies or the state to support them anymore, you have to be involved whether you are 2 miles or 200 miles away from them, you have to make calls on their behalf, follow everything up, because even positive decisions can be left hanging for months in someones intray, or get forgotton.

People like to try to retain some independence and also retain some dignity, people even in massive genuine need, hate to ask for help and particularly for money even from family and friends.

They see bills not being paid and know they are not able to, when benefits are cut or reduced, often some people just try to soldier on believing tomorrow is another day.
If these benefits were rightly his and were cut or removed then that is the DWP's fault because of the new savage fitness testing and ruthless near harrassment of those genuinely vulnerable, sick or disabled.
Maybe this man's family didn't know the full extent of what had happened as to his benefits,people also don't like others,even family going through their affairs.

I know the problem of ringing the DWP and trying to get things sorted out, for instance the ATOS assessments, dealing with them is like dealing with some secret police, their attitude stinks and they are totally unbending.

I took someone to one of them, his appt was 10.20am, he hadn't been seen by 11.50am, I myself went and asked when he would be, they couldn't say. So as I had to be somewhere else in the afternoon, I said I may have to take him home and make another appt,
I was told that if he went home, his name would still be called and if he wasn't there,he could lose his benefits.
It mattered not a bit that his appt was for 10.20 am and that someone had taken time off to come with him.They were not in the least interested.

I have for others, asked the DWP to look at decisions again, they wait 10 days to 2 weeks then say they are not changing their decision.
Then it goes to appeal and of all the appeals I have had a connection with for others every single one has been upheld for the claimant against ATOS and the DWP.
As you rightly say it is time consuming also very tiring too,if someone is doing this without knowing confidently how to go about it, then it can cause even more frustration and stress,not only for the claimant but those helping them too.

Without these reforms and savage attempts to dig out the 0.8% of people who claim wrongly or fraudulently, then this kind of incident would be less likely to happen.
Ian Duncan Smith has been told repeatedly of the chaos his hurried reforms are causing for the most vulnerable and he just totally dismisses it all.

This govt could and should relax this witchhunt of those on benefits, the greater part of the benefits bill is for pensions and pensioners and nothing is going to be done as to them anyway,at least in this parliament.
Therefore any savings are going to be far outweighed by the costs of appeals and backdated payments and the cost of bringing in the new benefit structures.

More and more of these sad cases will happen unless someone looks at this whole benefits reform again, clearly that will not coming from IDS and the rest of this heartless bunch of cowards we have in Govt, who can only dare to get at and pick on the weakest and poorest,even if it means the sick and disabled too.
I have come across people left without benefits, all due to them, for over 3 months.
Friends and family cannot possibly always support with the needed support for that time,what needs to be done is ensure that people cannot be be without rightful benefits for anything like that time.

I come back to my point that the reason this is happening is because of shockingly and unfairly planned benefit reforms that are being done in a too hurried fashion.
For that, only one organisation can be blamed and that is Ian Duncan Smith and this coalition Govt.

[Kizzy]

Yes but in this guys case nobody did, his family had an expectation that the State would support him and sort him out.

They were under the impression that it had been sorted out, and it had.. he had been assessed and had a diagnosis from healthcare professionals that highlighted the fact he was unfit for employment.
ATOS then overruled that decision, his family quite rightly want to know why that was.

[Cherie]

They were under the impression that it had been sorted out, and it had.. he had been assessed and had a diagnosis from healthcare professionals that highlighted the fact he was unfit for employment.
ATOS then overruled that decision, his family quite rightly want to know why that was.

Sorry Kizzy but there are a few things that don't add up in this case, they openly acknowledge he had a food phobia, and that he gave money away so they send him 250.00 quid what was sending money to him going to achieve?

[joeysteele]

Sorry Kizzy but there are a few things that don't add up in this case, they openly acknowledge he had a food phobia, and that he gave money away so they send him 250.00 quid what was sending money to him going to achieve?

Hi Cherie.
The main point for me in the whole sad saga is they,his family, shouldn't have even had to send him money anyway, he was due rightful benefits that he had a right to which were unfairly and wrongly taken from him.

That is not his family's fault or his at all, it is the DWP's fault and ATOS for the way they are working these new unjust reforms enacted by this present Govt.

Lot's of things rarely add up in these cases sometimes but, usually in the main, the one outstanding fact is that someone who should never had seen his benefits took off him at all for any period,did in fact have that happen and that is the absolute main reason for this tragedy coming about.

To have any case like this happen in the UK is a total disgrace in my view,even worse when caused in the greater part by the welfare policies in place which are brought into being by the Govt. of the day.

[Kizzy]

I agree, the main issue is the fact he was disregarded following an assessment, you may feel he was failed by his family cherie but what of those with no family to fight their corner at at all?

[joeysteele]

I agree, the main issue is the fact he was disregarded following an assessment, you may feel he was failed by his family cherie but what of those with no family to fight their corner at at all?

Also Kizzy, please excuse me for answering while you are replying to Cherie, however it is amazing how many people connected to someone in this situation don't actually want the 'active' bother of dealing with the problems.
Now also with so many organisations being scaled down or closed that were available for help with these matters the situation is far worse as to that and also the CABs are almost stretched to their limits too.

Everywhere more doors are being closed as to help and advice for people on benefits and no more opened either.
That means long delays for others trying to get things sorted.
The DWP also often just dismiss requests for looking at things again from Family too anyway.

I have seen cases take over a year to get resolved,that would wear anyone out.

[Kizzy]

No don't worry you raise an excellent point joey,the structures in place to facilitate between support structures medical/social and family in communities are crumbling as funding is pulled or reduced.

[Vicky.]

Not everyone has family to fall back on. Nor should they need it, especially ill people like this man. The state has a duty to look after them IMO. We all pay taxes for stuff like this..I doubt many people resent some of their taxes helping the disabled to have a decent quality of life...possibly with the exception of a few diehard torys.

Yes in this case (from what we know...) the family could have done more. But for me, the main problem here is that a man who is very clearly ill has been kicked off the benefits he is entitled to.

Last year, a family friend suffered a very bad heart attack. She had to have a bypass and was put on strict bedrest from her consultant. However literally 2 weeks after her op, she was called for a 'medical' and found to have nothing at all wrong with her, scored 0 points and was told to find work. Its just ****ing ridiculous and deflecting blame onto the families of these...victims tbh...doesnt help things at all. We should ALL be mad at this pathetic excuse for a government attempting to save a bit of money by pretty much attempting to kill off disabled people. Rather than finding extra money by closing tax loopholes and such if its needed.

[GypsyGoth]

That guy sounded like a troubled soul.

And sadly I feel that even with all the money in the world I don't think he could have been prevented from staving himself to death. Having a phobia to food is pretty much terminal.

[Kizzy]

he was 44 and had managed to eat enough to keep himself alive living independently since 2006, the stress due to this decision I feel was a contributory factor to his death.

[user104658]

Also Kizzy, please excuse me for answering while you are replying to Cherie, however it is amazing how many people connected to someone in this situation don't actually want the 'active' bother of dealing with the problems.

It's not even always that simple - people have their own lives to live. That may sound callous, but it's true, there are very few people who can (or should have to) dedicate their own lives to being a full-time carer.

For example, my mother has been disabled with crippling back problems (and besides that is now a chronic alcoholic) since I was in my early teens. Her and my dad are divorced. She could probably do with more help than she gets but, I have my own family and my children will always come first by a country mile. They are my absolute priority in terms of both finances and time and they always will be. We're not "well off" by any means, we do OK. If we were well off it might be a different story but as it stands, any financial help I could give would be a direct financial disadvantage to my own children. I work full time in hideous shift patterns that mean I don't see my kids for up to 4 days at a time as it is (out before they're awake, home after they're in bed) and so even offering up time to help would be less time spent with my own family. It's just not something I'm willing to do.


The current system absolutely NEEDS easily accessible centers that have people there purely to help. For a start... they've started to computerise the entire system. My mother has been mainly on disability, but she was stuck on Jobseekers Allowance for 6 months after (surprise surprise) a dodgy ATOS decision (that was eventually overturned). She - without exaggeration - CANNOT use a computer. She can't work a mouse. Turning one on baffles her. This isn't even to do with her disability - BEFORE the start of her issues, when she was a top-grade nurse and ward manager, she was completely tech-illiterate. She couldn't work a DVD player.

They've computerised the system and left the slightly older generations completely without help with it - and then they implement punitive sanctions for not complying. The cynic in me suspects it's deliberate. I had an older guy come into my work really worked up with a letter from the Jobcentre, asking me to help him with it because he couldn't understand it. It was just an information leaflet about browser cookies on the Jobmatch website. Completely irrelevant, but it might as well have been written in Japanese to him, and he was very distressed about it.

They NEED to have staff available to help people with simple things like this. To sit with them and fill in the online forms for them in a Q&A, to help them with online applications and that ridiculous Jobmatch site. Even the very basics like this, they're getting completely wrong. People are set up to fail and then they have benefits sanctioned entirely for weeks at a time. By the time they're reinstated, bills have piled up on the doormat. They start to get bank fines, charges through interest, debt collectors start knocking... and of course they're STILL struggling to meet govt. demands and get hit with sanction after sanction.

For a family member to deal with all of this, to keep so many balls in the air and at the same time have their own full-time job and family, is verging on impossible.

[Kizzy]

Well there we have it... work helping others get injured, and nobody wants to help. You fall into depression and addiction and nobody wants to know.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

and this brings me back to the point that if you have a vulnerable adult in your family you cannot trust the agencies or the state to support them anymore, you have to be involved whether you are 2 miles or 200 miles away from them, you have to make calls on their behalf, follow everything up, because even positive decisions can be left hanging for months in someones intray, or get forgotton.

I know someone who has had family around them helping as much as they can, with food, money, rent, emotional support and simply being there for them yet that person has ended up over and over in the same place, an institutaion.

You cannot put his problems down to lack of family contact when you dont know anything about how much contact they had with him. He has several mental health and medical conditions which were backed up by the gp and therefor none of his benefits should have ever been stopped. The parents probably trusted that he was being taken care f as he did not disclose any information about his situation until it was to late.

His condition caused him to be set in his ways, like he needed certain things a certain way so when his rent was stopped he was screwed. All he needed was his rent paid and a professional to check on his progress every week and im sure he would still be here today.

People need to stop blaming the parents fgs this was a major professional blunder and the 3rd reported this week.

[user104658]

Well there we have it... work helping others get injured, and nobody wants to help. You fall into depression and addiction and nobody wants to know.

Indeed. The specifics (of her back injury) are that she worked happily in a private hospital for 20+ years and then took a promotion to an NHS home, which was under-equipped and under-staffed for lifting and wrecked her back due to being under-financed of course. And this was pre-recession. They have the get out clause of "your level of experience means that you should know that doing this sort of lifting unaided is dangerous" ... but that would mean leaving patients in pain or discomfort. Meh.

Anyway, her addiction issues are slightly more complicated but you're right it's certainly been a big factor; her work distracted her from other issues in her life and when she lost that, it was the start of a downhill spiral.

So, screwed by government penny-pinching to then be firther screwed by government penny-pinching. A fairly common story, to be fair. People lose their jobs BECAUSE of government policies, and then are told they can't get help because of ... other government policies.

[Cherie]

I agree, the main issue is the fact he was disregarded following an assessment, you may feel he was failed by his family cherie but what of those with no family to fight their corner at at all?




I am not discussing that issue though, I am discussing this particular case, and his families "help" such as it was and whether or not it was appropriate due to his particular circumstances.

[Cherie]

It's not even always that simple - people have their own lives to live. That may sound callous, but it's true, there are very few people who can (or should have to) dedicate their own lives to being a full-time carer.

For example, my mother has been disabled with crippling back problems (and besides that is now a chronic alcoholic) since I was in my early teens. Her and my dad are divorced. She could probably do with more help than she gets but, I have my own family and my children will always come first by a country mile. They are my absolute priority in terms of both finances and time and they always will be. We're not "well off" by any means, we do OK. If we were well off it might be a different story but as it stands, any financial help I could give would be a direct financial disadvantage to my own children. I work full time in hideous shift patterns that mean I don't see my kids for up to 4 days at a time as it is (out before they're awake, home after they're in bed) and so even offering up time to help would be less time spent with my own family. It's just not something I'm willing to do.


The current system absolutely NEEDS easily accessible centers that have people there purely to help. For a start... they've started to computerise the entire system. My mother has been mainly on disability, but she was stuck on Jobseekers Allowance for 6 months after (surprise surprise) a dodgy ATOS decision (that was eventually overturned). She - without exaggeration - CANNOT use a computer. She can't work a mouse. Turning one on baffles her. This isn't even to do with her disability - BEFORE the start of her issues, when she was a top-grade nurse and ward manager, she was completely tech-illiterate. She couldn't work a DVD player.

They've computerised the system and left the slightly older generations completely without help with it - and then they implement punitive sanctions for not complying. The cynic in me suspects it's deliberate. I had an older guy come into my work really worked up with a letter from the Jobcentre, asking me to help him with it because he couldn't understand it. It was just an information leaflet about browser cookies on the Jobmatch website. Completely irrelevant, but it might as well have been written in Japanese to him, and he was very distressed about it.

They NEED to have staff available to help people with simple things like this. To sit with them and fill in the online forms for them in a Q&A, to help them with online applications and that ridiculous Jobmatch site. Even the very basics like this, they're getting completely wrong. People are set up to fail and then they have benefits sanctioned entirely for weeks at a time. By the time they're reinstated, bills have piled up on the doormat. They start to get bank fines, charges through interest, debt collectors start knocking... and of course they're STILL struggling to meet govt. demands and get hit with sanction after sanction.

For a family member to deal with all of this, to keep so many balls in the air and at the same time have their own full-time job and family, is verging on impossible.



That is all well and good but can we stick to the case that is being discussed here which is this unfortunate gentleman? His family have time to get involved now and might instigate legal proceedings? though their solution to his plight was to send him a few quid even though they openly acknowledged that he gave money away and had a food phobia? By all means don't get involved, but stay uninvolved then, don't turn up afterwards looking for answers.

[joeysteele]

[/B]


That is all well and good but can we stick to the case that is being discussed here which is this unfortunate gentleman? His family have time to get involved now and might instigate legal proceedings? though their solution to his plight was to send him a few quid even though they openly acknowledged that he gave money away and had a food phobia? By all means don't get involved, but stay uninvolved then, don't turn up afterwards looking for answers.

To be fair the thread talks about someone's death after having benefits reduced and/or stopped altogether.

That makes for and opens up discussion as to other examples of such cutting such as ToySoldier's which actually goes a great deal to explain the limitations that some family members may have especially when they are working and have their own families.

I take this thread to be as much about the wrongs of ATOS and the DWP and the Govts reforms to benefits and it is greatly relevant to debate that as well as the sad loss of life for this victim of those benefit cuts and decisions.

ToySoldier,again an excellent post,a worrying and very interesting informative read that demonstrates other areas of problems and thank you for sharing that with us too.

Sadly more of these cases are likely as long as this Govt. sticks stubbornly and rigidly to its failing reforms,I say failing reforms because in truth they cannot be saving much,if any, funding at all.

[Cherie]

Of course Joey this story opens up a whole can of worms and we could argue the ins and outs all day, I just think his death might have been avoided if the family gave him some practical help rather than throwing money at the problem.

[Cherie]

That guy sounded like a troubled soul.

And sadly I feel that even with all the money in the world I don't think he could have been prevented from staving himself to death. Having a phobia to food is pretty much terminal.

True.

[smeagol]

True.
not true at all

[smeagol]

I know someone who has had family around them helping as much as they can, with food, money, rent, emotional support and simply being there for them yet that person has ended up over and over in the same place, an institutaion.

You cannot put his problems down to lack of family contact when you dont know anything about how much contact they had with him. He has several mental health and medical conditions which were backed up by the gp and therefor none of his benefits should have ever been stopped. The parents probably trusted that he was being taken care f as he did not disclose any information about his situation until it was to late.

His condition caused him to be set in his ways, like he needed certain things a certain way so when his rent was stopped he was screwed. All he needed was his rent paid and a professional to check on his progress every week and im sure he would still be here today.

People need to stop blaming the parents fgs this was a major professional blunder and the 3rd reported this week.

you speak a lot of sense daniel . that bold part is the only facts people need to know

[Kizzy]

[/B]


I am not discussing that issue though, I am discussing this particular case, and his families "help" such as it was and whether or not it was appropriate due to his particular circumstances.


Well it's easy to be dismissive isn't it? I'm sure they're hoping that nobody questions the mistakes and dubious practices adopted.
To suggest its acceptable to make blunders that ultimately cost lives is a viewpoint I don't agree with at all, when adults with mental health issues live independently then the support framework sometimes involves family and sometimes not for many reasons.
As highlighted by joey even if the family had been made aware due to the bureaucracy what practical help could they have been? The decision would have stood until such time as an appeal could be heard which takes months.
So as I see it whether or not the family had contact the decision and the timescales to get help and/or advice would have been the same.
Ultimately the failing is with ATOS and their checklists that are far too simplistic to adequately assess complex mental health issues.

[Cherie]

Well it's easy to be dismissive isn't it? I'm sure they're hoping that nobody questions the mistakes and dubious practices adopted.
To suggest its acceptable to make blunders that ultimately cost lives is a viewpoint I don't agree with at all, when adults with mental health issues live independently then the support framework sometimes involves family and sometimes not for many reasons.
As highlighted by joey even if the family had been made aware due to the bureaucracy what practical help could they have been? The decision would have stood until such time as an appeal could be heard which takes months.
So as I see it whether or not the family had contact the decision and the timescales to get help and/or advice would have been the same.
Ultimately the failing is with ATOS and their checklists that are far too simplistic to adequately assess complex mental health issues.

Where have I been dismissive? Where have I said that the decision of ATOS was acceptable?

[joeysteele]

I know someone who has had family around them helping as much as they can, with food, money, rent, emotional support and simply being there for them yet that person has ended up over and over in the same place, an institutaion.

You cannot put his problems down to lack of family contact when you dont know anything about how much contact they had with him. He has several mental health and medical conditions which were backed up by the gp and therefor none of his benefits should have ever been stopped. The parents probably trusted that he was being taken care f as he did not disclose any information about his situation until it was to late.

His condition caused him to be set in his ways, like he needed certain things a certain way so when his rent was stopped he was screwed. All he needed was his rent paid and a professional to check on his progress every week and im sure he would still be here today.

People need to stop blaming the parents fgs this was a major professional blunder and the 3rd reported this week.

Excellent points Daniel and sadly likely many more cases to come similar to this one too.

[Me. I Am Salman]

is no one gonna point out the typo though. It's really bothering me

[Kizzy]

Where have I been dismissive? Where have I said that the decision of ATOS was acceptable?

The point I made about people without family to offer support was dismissed as you felt it wasn't relevant to the discussion, I feel it was as I can't see that when making the decision to provide financial support the government check family histories....Therefore the fact he had a family was irrelevant.
I said 'suggest its acceptable to make blunders' that is not me saying you said the decision of ATOS was acceptable.
I don't feel it's right or acceptable to have to assume that the people in charge of so many life or death decisions are incompetent and incapable, which is why the situation is coming to a head as the faults mount so far that it's impossible for the government to ignore.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

you speak a lot of sense daniel . that bold part is the only facts people need to know

I know, yet no one has chose to address my post lol.

[joeysteele]

I know, yet no one has chose to address my post lol.

I did Daniel,I agreed with all you said and especially your last paragraph.I repeat again,You made an excellent post in my opinion on this issue.