should Churches be forced to carry out marriages?

[the truth]

now that gay marriage is legal and starts tomorrow

should any church that says they wont varry out gay marriage ceremonies be prosecuted?

[Kizzy]

Oooof... that's a minefield :/

[Ninastar]

No... churches shouldn't be forced to do anything

I think that gay marriage should be legal, but I also think it should be up to that church whether they allow a gay couple to get married in their church. If they don't agree, I don't think there's anything wrong with that...

[Marsh.]

No. What a silly question.

The legal and religious sides to marriage have and always will be separate things.

[Shaun]

eh, there're so many "why should they be forced to" comments I keep seeing and I just think of those hotel-owners who refused to accommodate that gay couple... was that okay? was that any different? is there much of a gap between business and church?

[Jack_]

Yep

That will be the unpopular opinion but yep

[Marsh.]

Why would gay people want to get married in a church if that particular religion is entirely against them and their life? :shrug:

You could force them to carry out a gay marriage but it still entirely contradicts that religion, their belief system etc.

You don't need a church service to be officially married so why would you want one?

[AnnieK]

Why anyone would want to get married in a place that was "forced" to marry them is beyond me. It should be up to the individual church and vicar IMO as it is when they decide if they will marry people who have been previously divorced, many won't marry couples if either party has been married before. I don't think there should be a blanket ban or a blanket forced acceptance

[arista]

eh, there're so many "why should they be forced to" comments I keep seeing and I just think of those hotel-owners who refused to accommodate that gay couple... was that okay? was that any different? is there much of a gap between business and church?



They are like a Church
so yes

[arista]

Yep

That will be the unpopular opinion but yep



But they do not care
and will Block Gays
as its not part of their Church Life

[the truth]

imagine how many gay couples will be told at their local church, sorry we dont marry gay people here....dont you think some of those couples will take offence and take legal action?

[Nedusa]

now that gay marriage is legal and starts tomorrow

should any church that says they wont varry out gay marriage ceremonies be prosecuted?

No, besides prosecuted under what legislation ?

[Cherie]

No... churches shouldn't be forced to do anything

I think that gay marriage should be legal, but I also think it should be up to that church whether they allow a gay couple to get married in their church. If they don't agree, I don't think there's anything wrong with that...

Why would gay people want to get married in a church if that particular religion is entirely against them and their life? :shrug:

You could force them to carry out a gay marriage but it still entirely contradicts that religion, their belief system etc.

You don't need a church service to be officially married so why would you want one?

Why anyone would want to get married in a place that was "forced" to marry them is beyond me. It should be up to the individual church and vicar IMO as it is when they decide if they will marry people who have been previously divorced, many won't marry couples if either party has been married before. I don't think there should be a blanket ban or a blanket forced acceptance

All to the above if it against that particular Churches doctrine, then no they should not be forced.

The Hotel issue is a bit different as that is a business open to the public. Whilst most churches welcome the public there are certain aspects of the service that people cannot participate in if not baptised etc.

[arista]

imagine how many gay couples will be told at their local church, sorry we dont marry gay people here....dont you think some of those couples will take offence and take legal action?


Is there that many
wanting to get married?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I dont know why any self respecting gay couple would ever want to be married in a horrid church and all the lies and superstition that it represents.

I think that we should pull churches down and build proper community buildings for marriages and funerals that are religion free and open for everyone.

Its time to pull marriage and death away from religion

[Livia]

If a church wants to, then it's up to them. As soon as you force them to through legislation, you're going to have to make all the other temples, mosques, synagogues etc. follow suit.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If a church wants to, then it's up to them. As soon as you force them to through legislation, you're going to have to make all the other temples, mosques, synagogues etc. follow suit.

Gay marriage in a mosque would be more aesthetically pleasing as its more showbizzy

[Livia]

Gay marriage in a mosque would be more aesthetically pleasing as its more showbizzy

And there you have it, the main reason people want to marry in church. Not because they are believers, but because it's all part of the "event".

[Niamh.]

eh, there're so many "why should they be forced to" comments I keep seeing and I just think of those hotel-owners who refused to accommodate that gay couple... was that okay? was that any different? is there much of a gap between business and church?

Well I guess churches are allowed to refuse to marry previously divorced people and a hotel would probably be sued for refusing to accommodate previously divorced cuples, so yeah there is a big difference between business and church. I'm not saying I agree with that but then there's plenty of things about the Church i don't agree with

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well I guess churches are allowed to refuse to marry previously divorced people and a hotel would probably be sued for refusing to accommodate previously divorced cuples, so yeah there is a big difference between business and church. I'm not saying I agree with that but then there's plenty of things about the Church i don't agree with

I think the council treat them like a business as on Rev the other night the church was issued with a warning about their electrical wiring and Adam Smallbone said "I wish the council would stop treating us like a business"

[Nedusa]

We have had this debate in a previous thread and I think most people agreed that same sex marriage must be legal and on a par with heterosexual marriage.

As regards forcing established churches to marry same sex couples then I think that will take a lot longer to achieve. Established churches will stay true to their scripture/doctrines regardless of how out of touch they may be. They will resist same sex marriages and as the majority of their parishoners will support this they will feel entirely justified in doing so, and no Govt can force through law a change like this.

I think it would be better for all parties if the same sex couple could worship in a church that welcomed all people and was not mired in outdated religious Dogma.

[Niall]

eh, there're so many "why should they be forced to" comments I keep seeing and I just think of those hotel-owners who refused to accommodate that gay couple... was that okay? was that any different? is there much of a gap between business and church?

I feel the same way. I don't really think they should be allowed to hide behind religion to justify discriminating against people.

I mean how would people react if the Catholic Church turned around tomorrow and said they refuse to marry interracial couples? There would be complete backlash and outrage, no-one would have it.

[Niamh.]

I feel the same way. I don't really think they should be allowed to hide behind religion to justify discriminating against people.

I mean how would people react if the Catholic Church turned around tomorrow and said they refuse to marry interracial couples? There would be complete backlash and outrage, no-one would have it.

The Catholic Church is filled with isms though Niall, how about women not allowed to become priests? That's total sexism if that was a practice in the "real world of business" there would be complete outrage and public backlash but where is the outrage and backlash against it being done in the catholic Church? Fact is religions are a law onto themselves

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Catholic Church is filled with isms though Niall, how about women not allowed to become priests? That's total sexism if that was a practice in the "real world of business" there would be complete outrage and public backlash but where is the outrage and backlash against it being done in the catholic Church? Fact is religions are a law onto themselves

Listening to a superb interview with the real Philomena yesterday I can confirm that and its still going on. Ireland needs to kick that vile church out of its whole island

[user104658]

Why anyone would want to get married in a place that was "forced" to marry them is beyond me. It should be up to the individual church and vicar IMO as it is when they decide if they will marry people who have been previously divorced, many won't marry couples if either party has been married before. I don't think there should be a blanket ban or a blanket forced acceptance

This is more or less my opinion... I have no idea why anyone would want to get married somewhere that isn't accepting of them and their relationship. I think it's inevitable that some churches will embrace the concept with open arms, and also that in all likelihood new churches will spring up specifically with an "all welcome" message... anyone in a same-sex partnership who wants a religious ceremony will have options, so no, I don't think there's any need for it to be forced. I mean, where do you draw the line otherwise? Must protestants be allowed to marry in Catholic churches? Or completely non-religious people be allowed to marry in a Mosque (because let's face it, some of them are aesthetically stunning...).

But yes, my basic thoughts are, why would anyone WANT to get married anywhere other than a place that falls in line with their own beliefs and values?

If there were to be some sort of law allowing people to get married WHERE they want, which I don't think would be entirely unfair, especially in small communities where there are only one or two churches, then it should be a "venue only" stipulation. As in, you can have use of the venue for the wedding but you can't "force" the vicar / priest / whoever to perform the ceremony and would have to arrange separately for another to travel there and carry out the ceremony. I think that seems like a fair enough compromise.

[Niamh.]

Listening to a superb interview with the real Philomena yesterday I can confirm that and its still going on. Ireland needs to kick that vile church out of its whole island

mmm but it's getting there, the church are losing followers rapidly here

[Kyle]

So does anybody know what sort of religious venues will object to performing same-sex marriage? Is it just Roman Catholicism that will likely have a problem with it or other Christian denominations? Genuine question btw.

[Niamh.]

So does anybody know what sort of religious venues will object to performing same-sex marriage? Is it just Roman Catholicism that will likely have a problem with it or other Christian denominations? Genuine question btw.

I doubt it'll just be Catholics Kyle

[Kyle]

I doubt it'll just be Catholics Kyle

Yeh, that's probably true. Does anybody know what the Church of Scotland's take on it is?

[user104658]

So does anybody know what sort of religious venues will object to performing same-sex marriage? Is it just Roman Catholicism that will likely have a problem with it or other Christian denominations? Genuine question btw.

It definitely won't just be Catholics, there are (quote a few) protestant churches that are so hard-line on the literal word of the bible as to make Catholicism seem quite forward-thinking. I think in Britain especially we tend to think of non-Catholic Christianity as "Church Of (England/Scotland/etc.)" but there are actually hundreds of branches, some extremely liberal and some stuck in the dark ages. I don't think that will really be an issue, though... homosexual couples aren't likely to be part of (or interested in being part of) those sorts of churches, anyway.

[Kyle]

It definitely won't just be Catholics, there are (quote a few) protestant churches that are so hard-line on the literal word of the bible as to make Catholicism seem quite forward-thinking. I think in Britain especially we tend to think of non-Catholic Christianity as "Church Of (England/Scotland/etc.)" but there are actually hundreds of branches, some extremely liberal and some stuck in the dark ages. I don't think that will really be an issue, though... homosexual couples aren't likely to be part of (or interested in being part of) those sorts of churches, anyway.

Thank you for answering my question. :blush:

[user104658]

Yeh, that's probably true. Does anybody know what the Church of Scotland's take on it is?

More or less against it, as far as I can see:

Short and to the point (http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news_and_events/news/archive/2013/church_of_scotland_re-iterates_views_on_same_sex_marriage)

Most recent document on it (http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/19372/marriage_and_civil_partnership_scotland_act_2014.p df)

The second one is dated 2014, basically everything you need to know is in the FAQ on the second page. It seems to be summed up as "we don't currently want to do it, and have no plans to change this".

[Kyle]

More or less against it, as far as I can see:

Short and to the point (http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news_and_events/news/archive/2013/church_of_scotland_re-iterates_views_on_same_sex_marriage)

Most recent document on it (http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/19372/marriage_and_civil_partnership_scotland_act_2014.p df)

The second one is dated 2014, basically everything you need to know is in the FAQ on the second page. It seems to be summed up as "we don't currently want to do it, and have no plans to change this".

Thanks, I'll take a look at that CoS link and FAQ.

[Marsh.]

imagine how many gay couples will be told at their local church, sorry we dont marry gay people here....dont you think some of those couples will take offence and take legal action?

How many gay people frequent their local church which preaches about how homosexual activity will see you cast into hell?

:umm2:

[Tom4784]

I don't think there should be any distinction between Religion and Business, if a church offers a paid service then they should have to abide by the same rules as any other business.

People typically only get married in churches because it's nicer than a registry office, I've known a lot of people that have married in a church and it's never for religious reasons, it's just because they want a big church wedding. Gays getting married in a church is no different to non believers doing the same just for cosmetic reasons, if a church has no problem with accepting the money of non believers then it should be made to accept the money of any gay couple that chooses to marry in a church.

Religion is just a big business at the end of the day anyway.

[MTVN]

Well I think there's a difference between a business offering a basic public service and a church offering a specifically religious one. Religious considerations should have nothing to do with the former, they have everything to do with the latter.

Forcing Churches to conduct a ceremony that is against their beliefs would be a massive blow for freedom of religion and any state that would take a move like that is a too powerful one.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well I think there's a difference between a business offering a basic public service and a church offering a specifically religious one. Religious considerations should have nothing to do with the former, they have everything to do with the latter.

Forcing Churches to conduct a ceremony that is against their beliefs would be a massive blow for freedom of religion and any state that would take a move like that is a too powerful one.

And if some churches decided that they will now not be allowing people with black faces to be married as they have found some dead sea scrolls and in a new bit of Leviticus it states that God is not down with it b- then what?

[Marsh.]

I don't think there should be any distinction between Religion and Business, if a church offers a paid service then they should have to abide by the same rules as any other business.

People typically only get married in churches because it's nicer than a registry office, I've known a lot of people that have married in a church and it's never for religious reasons, it's just because they want a big church wedding. Gays getting married in a church is no different to non believers doing the same just for cosmetic reasons, if a church has no problem with accepting the money of non believers then it should be made to accept the money of any gay couple that chooses to marry in a church.

Religion is just a big business at the end of the day anyway.

Not all churches charge for weddings. They have religious requirements for RC churches where at least one of the couple must be baptised, sometimes the priest asks that he see you regularly attend mass for a few weeks beforehand and you have to pay for the flowers/candles or any other decoration you would like in the church.

I think CoE charge but that's set by law.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not all churches charge for weddings. They have religious requirements for RC churches where at least one of the couple must be baptised, sometimes the priest asks that he see you regularly attend mass for a few weeks beforehand and you have to pay for the flowers/candles or any other decoration you would like in the church.

I think CoE charge but that's set by law.

You make a donation to the coffers in just about all cases I think - so its not so much a charge as a levy

[Marsh.]

You make a donation to the coffers in just about all cases I think - so its not so much a charge as a levy

Not all. Sometimes the priest might ask for a church donation but it's not as though "Come on £400 and you can get married". It doesn't always work like that.

Except CoE where there is a set charge set by law.

[Tom4784]

Not all churches charge for weddings. They have religious requirements for RC churches where at least one of the couple must be baptised, sometimes the priest asks that he see you regularly attend mass for a few weeks beforehand and you have to pay for the flowers/candles or any other decoration you would like in the church.

I think CoE charge but that's set by law.

Most churches charge though, if it's not a paid service then they can do what they want but if they want to make money from weddings then they have to abide by the rules of business. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

[Jack_]

I don't think any institution should be actively allowed to discriminate against someone on grounds of sexual orientation

You don't choose your sexuality, but you do choose your religion (unless you're one of those families that likes to indoctrinate children)

[Kyle]

I don't think any institution should be actively allowed to discriminate against someone on grounds of sexual orientation

You don't choose your sexuality, but you do choose your religion (unless you're one of those families that likes to indoctrinate children)

Don't some religious people/groups dispute this?

[Kizzy]

I'll never understand organised religion, or why anyone would want to be part of one.

[Marsh.]

Most churches charge though, if it's not a paid service then they can do what they want but if they want to make money from weddings then they have to abide by the rules of business. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

They simply wouldn't marry a gay couple, so wouldn't take money from them. :conf:

I'm still confused as to why any gay couple would want to get married in the church or any other building of worship for a religion that completely opposes them and their life.

Wanting a pretty wedding is all well and good, but there are countless none religious places for that.

You can get married by law, the church is basically for the religious blessing. Why would a gay couple want a blessing? :confused:

[the truth]

How many gay people frequent their local church which preaches about how homosexual activity will see you cast into hell?

:umm2:

no it doesnt, you lie

[Marsh.]

no it doesnt, you lie

Enlighten me. What do they preach about homosexuals?

Bearing in mind my post didn't mention any specific religion.

[the truth]

And if some churches decided that they will now not be allowing people with black faces to be married as they have found some dead sea scrolls and in a new bit of Leviticus it states that God is not down with it b- then what?

and if the queen had bal%s shed be the king?

[the truth]

Enlighten me. What do they preach about homosexuals?

Bearing in mind my post didn't mention any specific religion.

who's they?

[Marsh.]

who's they?

The church. You just said "They don't" so go ahead and correct me.

[the truth]

They simply wouldn't marry a gay couple, so wouldn't take money from them. :conf:

I'm still confused as to why any gay couple would want to get married in the church or any other building of worship for a religion that completely opposes them and their life.

Wanting a pretty wedding is all well and good, but there are countless none religious places for that.

You can get married by law, the church is basically for the religious blessing. Why would a gay couple want a blessing? :confused:

because theres far more to these religions and churchesthat simply what you choose to hate about them

[Marsh.]

because theres far more to these religions and churchesthat simply what you choose to hate about them

Who said I hate anyone/anything? :conf:

If a church is completely against you as a person, says who you are is wrong then why would you worship or want to have your relationship celebrated there when your relationship is the very thing the church is against?

[the truth]

Who said I hate anyone/anything? :conf:

If a church is completely against you as a person, says who you are is wrong then why would you worship or want to have your relationship celebrated there when your relationship is the very thing the church is against?

we were discussing whether men had suffered you totally missed the point of course

[AnnieK]

I'm confused....

[the truth]

I'm confused....

about?

[Ninastar]

They simply wouldn't marry a gay couple, so wouldn't take money from them. :conf:

I'm still confused as to why any gay couple would want to get married in the church or any other building of worship for a religion that completely opposes them and their life.

Wanting a pretty wedding is all well and good, but there are countless none religious places for that.

You can get married by law, the church is basically for the religious blessing. Why would a gay couple want a blessing? :confused:

agree with this

[the truth]

agree with this

some gay people are religious

[Marsh.]

we were discussing whether men had suffered you totally missed the point of course

That's in the other thread my dear. Double check the thread title you made, we're discussing churches and gay marriage.

[the truth]

That's in the other thread my dear.

thanks my dear. another pedantic tricial point though as the subjects clearly overlap. then again you ignore the deaths of 70 million and choose to get angry about trivial stuff

[Niamh.]

Back ontopic or I'll have to close this thread as well

[Marsh.]

thanks my dear. another pedantic tricial point though as the subjects clearly overlap. then again you ignore the deaths of 70 million and choose to get angry about trivial stuff

:joker:

[the truth]

:joker:

you can see who is baiting and throwing chepa verbal abuse, marsh yet again. moderators its up to you.

[Ninastar]

some gay people are religious

and?

if so, they should get married in church they are allowed to be openly gay. but if the church is against it then fair enough

[Livia]

I've said this before in a thread of this kind, but here goes again... I wasn't allowed to marry in a synagogue, even though I would have liked to, because my husband wasn't Jewish. I didn't feel like a victim, I didn't feel ostracised from my fellow Jews because I know that's the rule. I didn't think they should be made to marry us.

If someone's gay and also religious, they'll have their own take on this and either accept it as a rule, marry in a civil service and have a blessing afterwards, or they'll perhaps know a friendly cleric who will perform the ceremony. If the people involved are not religious, I don't see that it would matter much to them anyway.

[Marsh.]

you can see who is baiting and throwing chepa verbal abuse, marsh yet again. moderators its up to you.

More irrelevance.

[Tom4784]

They simply wouldn't marry a gay couple, so wouldn't take money from them. :conf:

I'm still confused as to why any gay couple would want to get married in the church or any other building of worship for a religion that completely opposes them and their life.

Wanting a pretty wedding is all well and good, but there are countless none religious places for that.

You can get married by law, the church is basically for the religious blessing. Why would a gay couple want a blessing? :confused:

You misunderstand me, what I'm saying is that a church that charges for their services shouldn't be allowed to discriminate. So if they're happy enough taking money from straight non believers who just want a church wedding for the sake of it then they'll have to take on gay clients too if they want to continue making money at all.

As for your second point why would non-religious people want a church wedding? it's because it's part of the typical wedding fantasy. Why is it okay for these people to have Church Weddings when they aren't religious but not gays?

[Marsh.]

You misunderstand me, what I'm saying is that a church that charges for their services shouldn't be allowed to discriminate. So if they're happy enough taking money from straight non believers who just want a church wedding for the sake of it then they'll have to take on gay clients too if they want to continue making money at all.

As for your second point why would non-religious people want a church wedding? it's because it's part of the typical wedding fantasy. Why is it okay for these people to have Church Weddings when they aren't religious but not gays?

I never said it was "okay".

But the straight couples aren't having their entire life/relationship completely nullified by that religion.

It's like "forcing" the ku klux klan to share a house with immigrants. Why would the immigrants even want to in the first place?

[Tom4784]

I never said it was "okay".

But the straight couples aren't having their entire life/relationship completely nullified by that religion.

It's like "forcing" the ku klux klan to share a house with immigrants. Why would the immigrants even want to in the first place?

Because it's part of the wedding fantasy like I mentioned before.

[Crimson Dynamo]

if you think about weddings they are kind of gay anyway. I think hetro males should refuse to get married as weddings are too gay and unless they man them up a little we are saying NO

I mean the fecking outfits, bridesmaids, napkins, tables of relatives all making small talk, a vicar in a frock, Come on Eileen followed by Shalimar "Take that to the bank", the cars

This madness must stop - its like religious Carnival. Its way, way too fierce

[Marsh.]

Because it's part of the wedding fantasy like I mentioned before.

That's not a valid enough reason IMO.

Wanting to be married in a church even though you're not religious because it's pretty is one thing.

Wanting to be married in a church even though you're not religious and the church you're marrying in is completely against you and your life is quite another.

[Marsh.]

if you think about weddings they are kind of gay anyway. I think hetro males should refuse to get married as weddings are too gay and unless they man them up a little we are saying NO

I mean the fecking outfits, bridesmaids, napkins, tables of relatives all making small talk, a vicar in a frock, Come on Eileen followed by Shalimar "Take that to the bank", the cars

This madness must stop - its like religious Carnival. Its way, way too fierce

Only if you have a bride intent on having and loving those things.

My sister got married in a simple service, no over the top dresses etc. Had a party afterwards, went on holiday, that was it. :laugh:

And then started married life without a £30,000 debt for one day of extravagance you don't really need.

[Tom4784]

That's not a valid enough reason IMO.

Wanting to be married in a church even though you're not religious because it's pretty is one thing.

Wanting to be married in a church even though you're not religious and the church you're marrying in is completely against you and your life is quite another.

Why should the reason matter? I may be wrong with the number but I think there's a total of 8 references to gay people in the bible, I'm willing to bet the number of references to non believers being hellbound is a lot more prevalent yet they aren't ostracised in the same way.

[Vicky.]

No they shouldnt be forced to wed anyone they don't want to. Its still acceptable to refuse to perform ceremonies for divorced people on basically no grounds besides 'we dont agree with it'..so I dont really see the difference.

Personally though, I would think any vicar that refuses to carry out a wedding either to a gay couple, or a divorced one, or any thing else (legal) is a bit of a douche, but its their choice to be a douche :shrug:

Edit. After reading this I see niamh already made the divorce point...and also I agree with the why would you want to get married in a place that had to be forced to do it argument.

[joeysteele]

Well I have known couples get married in Church who never go to Church and don't have any belief either.
They just want a 'show' wedding,sometimes just to please Parents/Family.
So Churches marry people they maybe ought not to as to male/female marriages.

The sad thing is Churches are hypocritical anyway in their standards.
Having said that I don't think they should be forced to conduct gay marriages although I wouldn't be surprised,if the 'price' was right, for a relaxation of that attitude sometime in the future by some of them.
The Church is in its own little world anyway.

So no,I don't think they should be or could be even forced into conducting gay marriages.
Equally I don't think they are right to oppose gay marriage and I cannot see why 2 people who really love each other and want to commit for life to each other, should be denied having full recognition of that and the marriage they want.
Especially when it is not against any law in this Country now.

[Marsh.]

Why should the reason matter? I may be wrong with the number but I think there's a total of 8 references to gay people in the bible, I'm willing to bet the number of references to non believers being hellbound is a lot more prevalent yet they aren't ostracised in the same way.

Not religious or not much of a church goer doesn't necessarily denote "non believer".

[Niall]

The Catholic Church is filled with isms though Niall, how about women not allowed to become priests? That's total sexism if that was a practice in the "real world of business" there would be complete outrage and public backlash but where is the outrage and backlash against it being done in the catholic Church? Fact is religions are a law onto themselves

I know, and that's completely disgusting too. But just because it's a religion doesn't mean it should be condoned. I actually think it's even more wrong to let them fester with such toxic opinions given the wide spectrum of people they influence - and I don't just single out the Catholic Church in this, I used it as an example because it's the one I'm most closely acquainted with.

It just really irks me to see groups get carte blanche over these matters just because they believe 'God says so'. Especially given the fact that in another 100 years they'll only adopt the views of wider society anyway.

[Marsh.]

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church? :shrug:

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

[Ammi]

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church? :shrug:

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....



..anyway, I never get involved in religious discussions..:wink:...

[the truth]

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church? :shrug:

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

no its not like that whatsoever, what utter nonsense
additonally who are you to speak for all gay people? who are you to label them as all the same with all the same beliefs on religious matters? absurd
many gay people are also religious and many gay people want to get married in a church with the churches blessing
youre not here for the good of gay people, youre here as an attention seeking exercise

[thesheriff443]

saw a sign in a church yard a few days ago, it said,
under the same management for 2000 years!

[Kyle]

saw a sign in a church yard a few days ago, it said,
under the same management for 2000 years!

Wow! That's quite a feat for that church. It was also nice of the Romans to not knock it down when they saw it getting built :hugesmile:

[joeysteele]

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....



..anyway, I never get involved in religious discussions..:wink:...


You should always do so, that is a brilliant piece of work as to a post Ammi.

It just about says everything,ending with the really strong basic 'love and tolerance' part of faith.
Something it seems that Churches need to re-learn and start to live by themselves.

[arista]

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church? :shrug:

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.



Yes will Never Happen

Those God people have their book
No Gays.



Of Course their is No God
so its just a fable book guiding them.



Feel The Force

[Nedusa]

In simple terms think of it as joining a club which has rules which are all agreed on by the members of that club. So if you want to join that club you would have to agree to abide by their rules.

You surely would not expect to join said club and demand they change the rules to suit you.

For club substitute church and therein lies the problem.

I think a new club needs to be started, one where the rules are more relaxed and suit more people.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes will Never Happen

Those God people have their book
No Gays.



Of Course their is No God
so its just a fable book guiding them.



Feel The Force

Bang on right Arista :thumbs2:

[Vicky.]

no its not like that whatsoever, what utter nonsense
additonally who are you to speak for all gay people? who are you to label them as all the same with all the same beliefs on religious matters? absurd
many gay people are also religious and many gay people want to get married in a church with the churches blessing
youre not here for the good of gay people, youre here as an attention seeking exercise

There will be many churches willing to give their blessing though. I would think (or hope rather) that most will do them willingly. Just doesn't make sense to force them to do it...it would taint the ceremony anyway surely? I cant imagine getting married knowing that the vicar didnt want to do it, and he had a stony face all the way through D:

[Marsh.]

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....


Oh, I completely see where you're coming from and mostly agree with that stance about things not making complete sense in a lot of religions. I just don't think the government interfering and forcing people to allow this/believe this is quite a step in the right direction.

I feel people can stand up to them if they so wish and campaign or debate with them about what they believe. But forcing them to abide by one belief through no change from themselves is counter productive I think.

We'll no doubt end up with another broken faction of the church who accept homosexuality and a myriad of other things too.

[Marsh.]

Yes will Never Happen

You surprise me arista, I never thought you'd be so against freedom of speech.

But I suppose if it means forcing people to fall in line with your own thoughts it doesn't really matter to you. :whistle:

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Lets be honest most straight couples who get married in churches are not truly practicing their faith they are simply doing it as its tradition not to be recognized by god.

Who deserves to get married in a church more, a devout gay Christian, church going couple or a man and woman who do not believe in god and are simply using the church as a nice setting.

The bible does say man should not lie with man though so to be honest I totally understand a vicar or priest not wanting to engage in it, it would go against their faith and they would be in their eyes going against god.

It doesn't matter now the fact is we CAN get married and unless they find a loop hole in the bible then I 100% understand why some churches feel uncomfortable about it.

[Marsh.]

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

I know but many gay people still believe in god as apparently everyone was created equally ect, they choose to bypass the judgment in the Bible.

Its just a hyperthetical situation.

If you were to choose who should be accepted in the eyes of god who would you choose a couple who believed in him and respected and followed his rules or a couple who never prayed and did not practice the faith at all?

It should be about faith not the gender but the bible doesn't say that.

Its just a ****ed up debate no one will ever win.

[arista]

You surprise me arista, I never thought you'd be so against freedom of speech.

But I suppose if it means forcing people to fall in line with your own thoughts it doesn't really matter to you. :whistle:


No freedom of speech is fine
unless its against a Old Church
that would be better used as a Disco
for the young

[Shaun]

I think most of those who're gay christians have been brought up in a very religious family - probably Catholic, since they're a little more... strict and fun, than protestants or the half-arsed CofE folk - and just want to stay pleasing the family but keep within the faith. It's like keeping the family name or not seeing the partner before at the altar, just a tradition that shouldn't really be a problem.

[the truth]

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

no its not like that whatsoever.

[Nedusa]

no its not like that whatsoever.

Actually it is a bit like that.

[Marsh.]

I know but many gay people still believe in god as apparently everyone was created equally ect, they choose to bypass the judgment in the Bible.

Its just a hyperthetical situation.

I know it's just hypothetical but I was talking about gay people wanting to be involved in a specific religion which denounces homosexuality.

Believing in God doesn't necessarily make you a Christian. Plenty people are spiritual/believe in a god without belonging to an organised religion.

no its not like that whatsoever.

Well, yes it is.

[Marsh.]

No freedom of speech is fine
unless its against a Old Church
that would be better used as a Disco
for the young

:rolleyes: There is no unless about it. You're either for freedom of speech or you're not.

[Ammi]

Oh, I completely see where you're coming from and mostly agree with that stance about things not making complete sense in a lot of religions. I just don't think the government interfering and forcing people to allow this/believe this is quite a step in the right direction.

I feel people can stand up to them if they so wish and campaign or debate with them about what they believe. But forcing them to abide by one belief through no change from themselves is counter productive I think.

We'll no doubt end up with another broken faction of the church who accept homosexuality and a myriad of other things too.

..yeah, sorry if I seemed as though I was getting on my high horse a bit there because I really wasn't...hmmm, it's actually less to do with religion specifically but more of a worrying prejudice that is being carried through generations...at school, we had two marriages in the same year, one heterosexual and one homosexual and the heterosexual one/member of staff is allowed to say, hey this is my intended OH/who I married and introduce them as such to the children..but the homosexual/member of staff isn't allowed to say anything other than ..this is a friend....I know that the children we have are very young to understand sex very much but that would be the same if it was sex between a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple... so no one is talking about sex as such, just a marriage between two people who love each other..even pre-school children understand weddings and brides/grooms etc and what their perceptions of them are..anyway, so long as male/female marriages carry on being portrayed as the 'norm'/and as the only thing young children are given as 'examples', prejudice and intolerance will continue on and on..as they get older, some views and minds will be 'educated' but unfortunately others won't because they will stay with what was instilled in them from an early age....

[arista]

:rolleyes: There is no unless about it. You're either for freedom of speech or you're not.




But Church folk are a brick wall.



So ignore them
and have Freedom of Speech

[Niamh.]

..yeah, sorry if I seemed as though I was getting on my high horse a bit there because I really wasn't...hmmm, it's actually less to do with religion specifically but more of a worrying prejudice that is being carried through generations...at school, we had two marriages in the same year, one heterosexual and one homosexual and the heterosexual one/member of staff is allowed to say, hey this is my intended OH/who I married and introduce them as such to the children..but the homosexual/member of staff isn't allowed to say anything other than ..this is a friend....I know that the children we have are very young to understand sex very much but that would be the same if it was sex between a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple... so no one is talking about sex as such, just a marriage between two people who love each other..even pre-school children understand weddings and brides/grooms etc and what their perceptions of them are..anyway, so long as male/female marriages carry on being portrayed as the 'norm'/and as the only thing young children are given as 'examples', prejudice and intolerance will continue on and on..as they get older, some views and minds will be 'educated' but unfortunately others won't because they will stay with what was instilled in them from an early age....

aw that's awful Ammi, my kids have been aware of homosexuality since they were quite young and neither of them would bat an eyelid at a gay couple or think there was anything strange about gay marriage and I think that's the right way to go about things and to really nip homophobia in the bud

[the truth]

I know, and that's completely disgusting too. But just because it's a religion doesn't mean it should be condoned. I actually think it's even more wrong to let them fester with such toxic opinions given the wide spectrum of people they influence - and I don't just single out the Catholic Church in this, I used it as an example because it's the one I'm most closely acquainted with.

It just really irks me to see groups get carte blanche over these matters just because they believe 'God says so'. Especially given the fact that in another 100 years they'll only adopt the views of wider society anyway.

theres the same small percentage of pervert in any organization, the church, the bbc, the media, the trade unions etc etc theres no point singling out one over the others

[the truth]

aw that's awful Ammi, my kids have been aware of homosexuality since they were quite young and neither of them would bat an eyelid at a gay couple or think there was anything strange about gay marriage and I think that's the right way to go about things and to really nip homophobia in the bud

lets hope Christians get as much leeway to express themselves too

[Niamh.]

lets hope Christians get as much leeway to express themselves too

Well, their schools are Catholic run (as are 90 odd percent of all schools in Ireland) so yeah they get to express themselves plenty

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, their schools are Catholic run (as are 90 odd percent of all schools in Ireland) so yeah they get to express themselves plenty

90 %?

That is sickening

[Niamh.]

90 %?

That is sickening

mmm I think it's something like 96%, which is crazy, it gives you very little options when you're sending your kids to school

[Ammi]

lets hope Christians get as much leeway to express themselves too

..yeah they do, all religions do even though it's a Christian school, we teach all different religions... when we meet someone and marry them, we kind of take it for granted that we don't have to hide that from anyone and can 'celebrate' it by talking openly about our partners and it's wrong that, that doesn't apply to everyone equally...

[the truth]

..yeah they do, all religions do even though it's a Christian school, we teach all different religions... when we meet someone and marry them, we kind of take it for granted that we don't have to hide that from anyone and can 'celebrate' it by talking openly about our partners and it's wrong that, that doesn't apply to everyone equally...

im glad gay people have equal rights. but the whole subject does bore me to death. hopefully we can all know move on and get on with far more urgent matters, starting with the grotesque NHS cover ups in wales.

[Marsh.]

..yeah, sorry if I seemed as though I was getting on my high horse a bit there because I really wasn't...

Oh, no way. It didn't. :love:

hmmm, it's actually less to do with religion specifically but more of a worrying prejudice that is being carried through generations...at school, we had two marriages in the same year, one heterosexual and one homosexual and the heterosexual one/member of staff is allowed to say, hey this is my intended OH/who I married and introduce them as such to the children..but the homosexual/member of staff isn't allowed to say anything other than ..this is a friend....I know that the children we have are very young to understand sex very much but that would be the same if it was sex between a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple... so no one is talking about sex as such, just a marriage between two people who love each other..even pre-school children understand weddings and brides/grooms etc and what their perceptions of them are..anyway, so long as male/female marriages carry on being portrayed as the 'norm'/and as the only thing young children are given as 'examples', prejudice and intolerance will continue on and on..as they get older, some views and minds will be 'educated' but unfortunately others won't because they will stay with what was instilled in them from an early age....

Ah, in that case I do agree that the schools need to take a broader approach to education. Even if they are catholic schools it shouldn't be completely governed by that religion.

I mean I went to a catholic school but it didn't stop us being told to use contraception and shown how to stick condoms on tubes. :laugh: But then I don't know if their attitude to that stuff has changed in recent years.

They should be given as much information as possible to make their own decisions.

[Marsh.]

im glad gay people have equal rights. but the whole subject does bore me to death. hopefully we can all know move on and get on with far more urgent matters, starting with the grotesque NHS cover ups in wales.

It's not a one or the other scenario. We can work towards and discuss more than one issue at a time.

I hardly think equal human rights for members of our society is "less urgent" but just a different issue. It's not down to you to dictate what is more urgent.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

aw that's awful Ammi, my kids have been aware of homosexuality since they were quite young and neither of them would bat an eyelid at a gay couple or think there was anything strange about gay marriage and I think that's the right way to go about things and to really nip homophobia in the bud

That's good to hear, hopefully the majority of this generations parents are doing the same as you and homosexuals in school will be seen as regular kids and not the *gay kid.

[user104658]

mmm I think it's something like 96%, which is crazy, it gives you very little options when you're sending your kids to school

We have a friend affected by this predicament over in ROI. She isn't religious and isn't raising her daughter Catholic, she went to Catholic school herself and hates everything about it, but there are very few options for her. All of the local schools are Catholic run (within a radius of dozens of miles) and the only other option is home-schooling, which would be financially impossible.

I would feel horribly trapped in that situation. There's no way I'd send my kids into a religious education system, but home schooling wouldn't be logistically feasible... No idea how I'd get around it, actually.

[user104658]

That's good to hear, hopefully the majority of this generations parents are doing the same as you and homosexuals in school will be seen as regular kids and not the *gay kid.

My kids have a set of gay "uncles" (one of my best friends from school, rather than an actual sibling) so for them it's definitely completely normal. I think it's changing all the time. People being openly gay at highschool age was quite rare even when I was there (10-15 years ago), my friend didn't even become openly gay until just after school (although, we all knew anyway). But my sister in law who is just 18 now had several gay friends through high school. It seems to be pretty abnormal for modern teens NOT to have openly gay friends in their group. So I reckon when today's teens are old and grey, the landscape will look very different.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

I reckon every high school should gather everyone in the assembly room, give them some popcorn and play this film. Its basically mean girls with girls all competing to get themselves a gay best friend but with all sexualities and cliques becoming besties in the end (you know the teen comedy drill).

That would be my suggestion anyway, sitting people down and making them listen to a serious debate at 15 wouldn't make as much as an impact as sitting them down to watch a teen flick.

Yes a lot of teens are mature and can discuss and debate but lets be real its more effective to teach this way and then open a discussion after viewing.

Naturally the talk will become more in depth as they talk about a character and what right they feel he should have ect instead of sitting in a class and talking about something which doesn't even relate to 95% of those pretending to listen to the teacher.

I should so be a teacher.

krEdqwLLASw

[daniel-lewis-1985]

My kids have a set of gay "uncles" (one of my best friends from school, rather than an actual sibling) so for them it's definitely completely normal. I think it's changing all the time. People being openly gay at highschool age was quite rare even when I was there (10-15 years ago), my friend didn't even become openly gay until just after school (although, we all knew anyway). But my sister in law who is just 18 now had several gay friends through high school. It seems to be pretty abnormal for modern teens NOT to have openly gay friends in their group. So I reckon when today's teens are old and grey, the landscape will look very different.

I hate to say it but its trye when I was in high school 12 years ago I picked on the gay kid just because my mates did which is an arsehole thing to do.

Didn't properly come out till I was 22 could never have done it back then. I think people were more afraid of turd burglars than the millennium bug.

[the truth]

I hate to say it but its trye when I was in high school 12 years ago I picked on the gay kid just because my mates did which is an arsehole thing to do.

Didn't properly come out till I was 22 could never have done it back then. I think people were more afraid of turd burglars than the millennium bug.

could you get into serious trouble using the term turd burglars?

[Niamh.]

We have a friend affected by this predicament over in ROI. She isn't religious and isn't raising her daughter Catholic, she went to Catholic school herself and hates everything about it, but there are very few options for her. All of the local schools are Catholic run (within a radius of dozens of miles) and the only other option is home-schooling, which would be financially impossible.

I would feel horribly trapped in that situation. There's no way I'd send my kids into a religious education system, but home schooling wouldn't be logistically feasible... No idea how I'd get around it, actually.

It is tough, there is a non denominational school in the city but logistically speaking it would be a nightmare and also, I wanted to send my kids to school locally so they have friends in the area and find it easier to get involved in local activities because they know all the kids around. The government are apparently trying to phase out "state" run catholic schools but it's a very slow process and a mammoth task really consider that almost all the schools in Ireland need changing

[Crimson Dynamo]

I hope everyone watched Rev last night, it was all about Gay marriage in church

[Livia]

I hope everyone watched Rev last night, it was all about Gay marriage in church

You know it wasn't a documentary... right?

[Crimson Dynamo]

You know it wasn't a documentary... right?

Its much truer than that!

[Cherie]

It is tough, there is a non denominational school in the city but logistically speaking it would be a nightmare and also, I wanted to send my kids to school locally so they have friends in the area and find it easier to get involved in local activities because they know all the kids around. The government are apparently trying to phase out "state" run catholic schools but it's a very slow process and a mammoth task really consider that almost all the schools in Ireland need changing

So did you kids take First Communion and Confirmation Niamh or did you opt out?

[Niamh.]

So did you kids take First Communion and Confirmation Niamh or did you opt out?

They did them which I feel completely hypocritical about but I didn't want them to feel different to everyone else in the school. It's bad I know.

[Cherie]

We have a friend affected by this predicament over in ROI. She isn't religious and isn't raising her daughter Catholic, she went to Catholic school herself and hates everything about it, but there are very few options for her. All of the local schools are Catholic run (within a radius of dozens of miles) and the only other option is home-schooling, which would be financially impossible.

I would feel horribly trapped in that situation. There's no way I'd send my kids into a religious education system, but home schooling wouldn't be logistically feasible... No idea how I'd get around it, actually.


Actually I don't see it as a huge deal, my kids went to a Catholic Primary School here in the UK and went on to attend non denominational secondary schools (their choice), many of the kids at Primary were non Catholic but attended because the teaching was superb, the kids that were non Catholic didn't attend the First Communion programme which is not done in schools here anyway but done separately at weekends.

[Cherie]

They did them which I feel completely hypocritical about but I didn't want them to feel different to everyone else in the school. It's bad I know.

:laugh: that's us catholics for you, we can grin and bear anything for our kids.

[Cherie]

We have a friend affected by this predicament over in ROI. She isn't religious and isn't raising her daughter Catholic, she went to Catholic school herself and hates everything about it, but there are very few options for her. All of the local schools are Catholic run (within a radius of dozens of miles) and the only other option is home-schooling, which would be financially impossible.

I would feel horribly trapped in that situation. There's no way I'd send my kids into a religious education system, but home schooling wouldn't be logistically feasible... No idea how I'd get around it, actually.


So what would you do if (in this scenario you are unable to home school and private schooling is not an option :D:) the two schools available to you were

(a) a failing non denominational school or

(b) a high flying religious school

[Kyle]

[/B]


So what would you do if (in this scenario you are unable to home school and private schooling is not an option :D:) the two schools available to you were

(a) a failing non denominational school or

(b) a high flying religious school

'Am no lettin ma wains go tae wan a they Feenyan schoolsh' :ninja2:








jus kidding :grin2:

[Cherie]

'Am no lettin ma wains go tae wan a they Feenyan schoolsh' :ninja2:







jus kidding :grin2:

what about a Jewish one :D:

[Kyle]

what about a Jewish one :D:

I'm not touching that subject, Livia will chop my balls off :D

[Marsh.]

Do people somehow get the impression that "religious" schools somehow drum the bible into you?

I went to a catholic school but I don't believe it made any difference. There were masses held in the school hall, which you had the choice to attend or not, you had the choice to be confirmed or not, religious education wasn't about trying to make you believe the bible but studying varying different religions/cultures and how they've developed over the years, how the religious groups split etc.

A valid cultural education for anyone whether you're a believer or atheist.

[Niamh.]

:laugh: that's us catholics for you, we can grin and bear anything for our kids.

It is bad though :laugh: I don't consider myself to be Catholic anymore though just because I was born into it. Sooner they take the Religious aspect out of our supposedly state schools the better tbh

[Niamh.]

Do people somehow get the impression that "religious" schools somehow drum the bible into you?

I went to a catholic school but I don't believe it made any difference. There were masses held in the school hall, which you had the choice to attend or not, you had the choice to be confirmed or not, religious education wasn't about trying to make you believe the bible but studying varying different religions/cultures and how they've developed over the years, how the religious groups split etc.

A valid cultural education for anyone whether you're a believer or atheist.

They do over here

[Cherie]

Do people somehow get the impression that "religious" schools somehow drum the bible into you?

I went to a catholic school but I don't believe it made any difference. There were masses held in the school hall, which you had the choice to attend or not, you had the choice to be confirmed or not, religious education wasn't about trying to make you believe the bible but studying varying different religions/cultures and how they've developed over the years, how the religious groups split etc.

A valid cultural education for anyone whether you're a believer or atheist.


That is my experience with my kids education

[Marsh.]

They do over here

Ah well, Ireland is another kettle of fish altogether. :hugesmile:

[Ammi]

Do people somehow get the impression that "religious" schools somehow drum the bible into you?

I went to a catholic school but I don't believe it made any difference. There were masses held in the school hall, which you had the choice to attend or not, you had the choice to be confirmed or not, religious education wasn't about trying to make you believe the bible but studying varying different religions/cultures and how they've developed over the years, how the religious groups split etc.

A valid cultural education for anyone whether you're a believer or atheist.

..no, we don't at all, religious topics are covered but it's all religions not just Christian ones..the children have bible stories once a week for around 15 minutes, which is the only time the bible is covered ...and they are 'moral' stories...it's not a Catholic school though, so it's probably different for them...I told you about my work colleague and his marriage..?...I should say that the restrictions placed aren't from the school as such, it's more from the parents and what they want...

[Cherie]

..no, we don't at all, religious topics are covered but it's all religions not just Christian ones..the children have bible stories once a week for around 15 minutes, which is the only time the bible is covered ...and they are 'moral' stories...it's not a Catholic school though, so it's probably different for them...I told you about my work colleague and his marriage..?...I should say that the restrictions placed aren't from the school as such, it's more from the parents and what they want...

Nope they cover all religions as part of the RE curriculum.

[Marsh.]

..no, we don't at all, religious topics are covered but it's all religions not just Christian ones..the children have bible stories once a week for around 15 minutes, which is the only time the bible is covered ...and they are 'moral' stories...it's not a Catholic school though, so it's probably different for them...I told you about my work colleague and his marriage..?...I should say that the restrictions placed aren't from the school as such, it's more from the parents and what they want...

Sorry, I shouldn't have referred to "all religious" schools as I only have experience with catholic ones. :hugesmile:

[daniel-lewis-1985]

could you get into serious trouble using the term turd burglars?

Apparently so.

[the truth]

It is bad though :laugh: I don't consider myself to be Catholic anymore though just because I was born into it. Sooner they take the Religious aspect out of our supposedly state schools the better tbh

what are you suggesting? we ban all catholic schools? we ban any talk of religious parables ? ban hymns in the morning? where do you draw the line?

[the truth]

Apparently so.

jim davidson was pretty much booted off a tv show for using the term shirt lifter

[arista]

jim davidson was pretty much booted off a tv show for using the term shirt lifter




yes its just a Old Term for Gay

[Niamh.]

what are you suggesting? we ban all catholic schools? we ban any talk of religious parables ? ban hymns in the morning? where do you draw the line?

Not at all.......if you read my post properly you would have seen i was talking about "state" run schools which are actually Catholic, which make up over 90% of the schools in Ireland.

[the truth]

why would you ban them all as opposed to tightening regulations and scrutinising them better? are they performing any worse than the other schools/

[Niamh.]

why would you ban them all as opposed to tightening regulations and scrutinising them better? are they performing any worse than the other schools/

I would rather "state" run schools be purely educational, if people want to send their kids to religious run schools that would be their choice, I don't want to but currently I have very little choice in the matter as all the schools in or near my area (and probably the majority of areas over here) are religious run schools eventhough they are state schools not private. imo the state should not be influenced by religion and currently almost all of our schools are.

[the truth]

I would rather "state" run schools be purely educational, if people want to send their kids to religious run schools that would be their choice, I don't want to but currently I have very little choice in the matter as all the schools in or near my area (and probably the majority of areas over here) are religious run schools eventhough they are state schools not private. imo the state should not be influenced by religion and currently almost all of our schools are.

im surprised theres no choice at all
what is it in particular you detest about these catholic schools? I read their performance tables are on average higherthan most other schools

[Crimson Dynamo]

im surprised theres no choice at all
what is it in particular you detest about these catholic schools? I read their performance tables are on average higherthan most other schools

Its a disgusting liberty that the word religion and schools are uttered in the same breath.

There should be NO religion anywhere near a school:nono:

[Niamh.]

im surprised theres no choice at all
what is it in particular you detest about these catholic schools? I read their performance tables are on average higherthan most other schools

I'm sure you did read that about privately run Catholic schools but that's not what I'm talking about here, I'm talking about state schools in Ireland which are pretty much all Catholic run. They shouldn't be, state schools should not be run by the church, I don't detest Catholic run schools but I would have preferred to send my children to a school that doesn't teach Catholicism as fact...........which is what happens in these schools. People can choose to send their children to religious schools if they like, that's their prerogative, I didn't want to but I had no choice unless I took my kids out of our area and travelled a long way to and from home every day with them which wasn't doable for me and wouldn't have been fair on them

[Jack_]

I'm sure you did read that about privately run Catholic schools but that's not what I'm talking about here, I'm talking about state schools in Ireland which are pretty much all Catholic run. They shouldn't be, state schools should not be run by the church, I don't detest Catholic run schools but I would have preferred to send my children to a school that doesn't teach Catholicism as fact...........which is what happens in these schools. People can choose to send their children to religious schools if they like, that's their prerogative, I didn't want to but I had no choice unless I took my kids out of our area and travelled a long way to and from home every day with them which wasn't doable for me and wouldn't have been fair on them

That's just as bad, parents forcing their religious beliefs on their children and basically indoctrinating them is disgusting

Faith schools shouldn't exist full stop. Religious beliefs are a personal, private and individual choice that should be made after studying and understanding different viewpoints when at an age where you're capable of forming your own rational opinions, not having them taught to children as fact from an early age whether in the home or at school. It's sickening

[Niamh.]

That's just as bad, parents forcing their religious beliefs on their children and basically indoctrinating them is disgusting

Faith schools shouldn't exist full stop. Religious beliefs are a personal, private and individual choice that should be made after studying and understanding different viewpoints when at an age where you're capable of forming your own rational opinions, not having them taught to children as fact from an early age whether in the home or at school. It's sickening

Well I guess that's another argument completely and whilst I agree with you as a person who doesn't believe in God, I guess if you truly do believe in God and the teachings of your particular religion then I suppose you would think you're doing your children a dis service by not bringing them up the way their God says, you know?

[the truth]

That's just as bad, parents forcing their religious beliefs on their children and basically indoctrinating them is disgusting

Faith schools shouldn't exist full stop. Religious beliefs are a personal, private and individual choice that should be made after studying and understanding different viewpoints when at an age where you're capable of forming your own rational opinions, not having them taught to children as fact from an early age whether in the home or at school. It's sickening

yes indoctrinating kids with atheism and anti religious teachings is equally disgusting

[the truth]

I'm sure you did read that about privately run Catholic schools but that's not what I'm talking about here, I'm talking about state schools in Ireland which are pretty much all Catholic run. They shouldn't be, state schools should not be run by the church, I don't detest Catholic run schools but I would have preferred to send my children to a school that doesn't teach Catholicism as fact...........which is what happens in these schools. People can choose to send their children to religious schools if they like, that's their prerogative, I didn't want to but I had no choice unless I took my kids out of our area and travelled a long way to and from home every day with them which wasn't doable for me and wouldn't have been fair on them

If I felt as strongly as you seem to do about how awful catholic schools are I would leave to an area which provides a school with no religious element. though personally I think the religious element is in many ways a good thing and this is illustrated by the fact catholic schools usually outperform other schools

[Niamh.]

If I felt as strongly as you seem to do about how awful catholic schools are I would leave to an area which provides a school with no religious element. though personally I think the religious element is in many ways a good thing and this is illustrated by the fact catholic schools usually outperform other schools

96% of schools in Ireland are Catholic run, you think I should sell my house and move from an area that I love to find a non denominational school? Don't be ridiculous :rolleyes:

Also, again I never said catholic schools were awful please don't put words in my mouth. I said I would rather not send my kids to a religious run school as I am not religious myself...........I really don't get how that's a strange point of view to hold

[Jack_]

yes indoctrinating kids with atheism and anti religious teachings is equally disgusting

I don't disagree with that either so I'm not sure what points you're trying to score

Parents should bring their children up with a balanced, objective view on religious belief on either side of the argument and stress to them that it's for them to form opinions of their own as they grow up and look into that aspect of life themselves. By all means let them query your views and tell them but if I have kids I'll definitely be saying 'I'm not personally religious, some people in our family are and they are x and y and they believe this, some people believe this, it's up for you to think whatever you wish as you grow up'

Parents should not be forcing these types of beliefs on children from an early age no matter which side of the debate you're on. They're individuals, anyone that doesn't let them think for themselves is a ****

[Ammi]

That's just as bad, parents forcing their religious beliefs on their children and basically indoctrinating them is disgusting

Faith schools shouldn't exist full stop. Religious beliefs are a personal, private and individual choice that should be made after studying and understanding different viewpoints when at an age where you're capable of forming your own rational opinions, not having them taught to children as fact from an early age whether in the home or at school. It's sickening



.it isn't like that though, Jack..maybe it is in some Catholic schools but in faith schools/all the faith schools that I know, it's taught more as part of philosophy and morals etc...and also to compare different religions and to teach 'tolerance' etc..that we all believe in different things...

[Jack_]

I know they're not all the same and I accept that, but the fact that some are and will use their building to push their religious agenda is reason enough to close them IMO

I went to a Catholic school in London for Reception and Y1 and assemblies would be focused around bible stories and praying at the end. If you didn't join in you'd be told off, and when I moved to where I live now my second primary school whilst not being an official faith school had hymn singing and prayers and that alone is way too far. I thought about this recently actually, six year old children being forced to sit in an assembly hall and pray, sing hymns, listen to readings from the bible :umm2: there isn't that much religious education at that age either, certainly not from what I remember so it really is a case of indoctrinating children at an early age. That's just unacceptable

[AnnieK]

I am currently trying to get my son in the local catholic primary school....it has the best ofsted in the area but I don't think they will accept him. I have my own beliefs but I decided against having him christened (which I got a lot of stick for) as I do think religion is a personal thing and I wanted him to decide but now it could go against him :fist:

[Ammi]

I know they're not all the same and I accept that, but the fact that some are and will use their building to push their religious agenda is reason enough to close them IMO

I went to a Catholic school in London for Reception and Y1 and assemblies would be focused around bible stories and praying at the end. If you didn't join in you'd be told off, and when I moved to where I live now my second primary school whilst not being an official faith school had hymn singing and prayers and that alone is way too far. I thought about this recently actually, six year old children being forced to sit in an assembly hall and pray, sing hymns, listen to readings from the bible :umm2: there isn't that much religious education at that age either, certainly not from what I remember so it really is a case of indoctrinating children at an early age. That's just unacceptable

..yeah, I agree, that shouldn't be forced on young children, especially by schools but it's irritating sometimes when it's assumed that 'faith schools' are all as one because they are so, so different and you would be more likely to hear our children singing High School Musical in assemblies, than you would a hymn...

[AnnieK]

I know they're not all the same and I accept that, but the fact that some are and will use their building to push their religious agenda is reason enough to close them IMO

I went to a Catholic school in London for Reception and Y1 and assemblies would be focused around bible stories and praying at the end. If you didn't join in you'd be told off, and when I moved to where I live now my second primary school whilst not being an official faith school had hymn singing and prayers and that alone is way too far. I thought about this recently actually, six year old children being forced to sit in an assembly hall and pray, sing hymns, listen to readings from the bible :umm2: there isn't that much religious education at that age either, certainly not from what I remember so it really is a case of indoctrinating children at an early age. That's just unacceptable

I don't feel it's indoctrination, more tradition. We had the same type assemblies at primary school and had to say prayers at the end of the day but it was more parroting than praying....I can't see it had any effect on anyone's beliefs. It is outdated now but I don't think there is that much of an agenda in primary schools especially

Edit....plus, if I don't get to sit and cry watching my boy in his first nativity, I will. Not be happy. He better be Joseph :fist: