Something that needs addressing regarding sexist/misogynistic claims

[Jack_]

I'm sure you all know I'm a bit of a feminist but there is something I do think needs addressing with regards to people (not just on here but in the house too - Mark and Danielle) calling Marlon and Ash sexist and misogynist specifically for the way in which they've spoken to Toya or for calling her a *******.

I get that people's intentions are well placed and that's all well and good but there is and should be no difference with the way in which men and women are treated when it comes to arguments and throwing insults around, everyone's fair game regardless of their gender. In fact the notion that women should somehow be excluded from being shouted at or called a **** purely because they're a woman is actually sexist in itself and not just to men but to women too because it suggests that they're somehow vulnerable and inferior and need protecting and to be treated differently. It's a bit like the argument that some people put forward saying lads mags and porn should be banned because it objectifies women when actually what that suggests is that women shouldn't be allowed to freely express their sexuality and do what they want with their bodies. Women are more than capable of being treated the same as men are (and actually that's what needs to happen, equal pay/representation in politics etc...we need women to have equal rights to men, this whole thing would mean they don't), to suggest there should be a difference puts women on a lower pedestal to men.

Do I think them calling her a **** was justified? No, I think it made them look like ***** if anything...but is it sexist and misogynistic? No.

What was misogynistic was the conversation they had about a week ago in front of Kimberly where they objectified her right in front of her face. That's sexism, not them shouting at and insulting Toya in an argument where let's be real, she gave as good as she got.

So yeah :laugh:

[Hofman]

I'm sure you all know I'm a bit of a feminist but there is something I do think needs addressing with regards to people (not just on here but in the house too - Mark and Danielle) calling Marlon and Ash sexist and misogynist specifically for the way in which they've spoken to Toya or for calling her a *******.

I get that people's intentions are well placed and that's all well and good but there is and should be no difference with the way in which men and women are treated when it comes to arguments and throwing insults around, everyone's fair game regardless of their gender. In fact the notion that women should somehow be excluded from being shouted at or called a **** purely because they're a woman is actually sexist in itself and not just to men but to women too because it suggests that they're somehow vulnerable and inferior and need protecting and to be treated differently. It's a bit like the argument that some people put forward saying lads mags and porn should be banned because it objectifies women when actually what that suggests is that women shouldn't be allowed to freely express their sexuality and do what they want with their bodies. Women are more than capable of being treated the same as men are (and actually that's what needs to happen, equal pay/representation in politics etc...we need women to have equal rights to men, this whole thing would mean they don't), to suggest there should be a difference puts women on a lower pedestal to men.

Do I think them calling her a **** was justified? No, I think it made them look like ***** if anything...but is it sexist and misogynistic? No.

What was misogynistic was the conversation they had about a week ago in front of Kimberly where they objectified her right in front of her face. That's sexism, not them shouting at and insulting Toya in an argument where let's be real, she gave as good as she got.

So yeah :laugh:

I so agree with what you are saying especially about last week

[Verbal]

I'm sure you all know I'm a bit of a feminist but there is something I do think needs addressing with regards to people (not just on here but in the house too - Mark and Danielle) calling Marlon and Ash sexist and misogynist specifically for the way in which they've spoken to Toya or for calling her a *******.

I get that people's intentions are well placed and that's all well and good but there is and should be no difference with the way in which men and women are treated when it comes to arguments and throwing insults around, everyone's fair game regardless of their gender. In fact the notion that women should somehow be excluded from being shouted at or called a **** purely because they're a woman is actually sexist in itself and not just to men but to women too because it suggests that they're somehow vulnerable and inferior and need protecting and to be treated differently. It's a bit like the argument that some people put forward saying lads mags and porn should be banned because it objectifies women when actually what that suggests is that women shouldn't be allowed to freely express their sexuality and do what they want with their bodies. Women are more than capable of being treated the same as men are (and actually that's what needs to happen, equal pay/representation in politics etc...we need women to have equal rights to men, this whole thing would mean they don't), to suggest there should be a difference puts women on a lower pedestal to men.

Do I think them calling her a **** was justified? No, I think it made them look like ***** if anything...but is it sexist and misogynistic? No.

What was misogynistic was the conversation they had about a week ago in front of Kimberly where they objectified her right in front of her face. That's sexism, not them shouting at and insulting Toya in an argument where let's be real, she gave as good as she got.

So yeah :laugh:

I thought you were going to say the exact opposite, but I totally agree. Throwing these sorts of words around, along with 'racist' cheapens the very meaning of the word.

[Josy]

Wow. I agree.


Is this real life :huh: :joker:

[Gerbil901]

Yes a feminist I can agree with. The world must be coming to an end.

[Kizzy]

Did you write all that by yourself? well done honey ;)

They did objectify her a little but it was more a bravado thing, not misogyny. that word is banded around too often, true misogyny is rare.

[Jack_]

Did you write all that by yourself? well done honey ;)

They did objectify her a little but it was more a bravado thing, not misogyny. that word is banded around too often, true misogyny is rare.

Um...excuse me? Any need for that? :crazy:

[Lola844]

I just think their p*****

[Miranda123]

I'm sure you all know I'm a bit of a feminist but there is something I do think needs addressing with regards to people (not just on here but in the house too - Mark and Danielle) calling Marlon and Ash sexist and misogynist specifically for the way in which they've spoken to Toya or for calling her a *******.

I get that people's intentions are well placed and that's all well and good but there is and should be no difference with the way in which men and women are treated when it comes to arguments and throwing insults around, everyone's fair game regardless of their gender. In fact the notion that women should somehow be excluded from being shouted at or called a **** purely because they're a woman is actually sexist in itself and not just to men but to women too because it suggests that they're somehow vulnerable and inferior and need protecting and to be treated differently. It's a bit like the argument that some people put forward saying lads mags and porn should be banned because it objectifies women when actually what that suggests is that women shouldn't be allowed to freely express their sexuality and do what they want with their bodies. Women are more than capable of being treated the same as men are (and actually that's what needs to happen, equal pay/representation in politics etc...we need women to have equal rights to men, this whole thing would mean they don't), to suggest there should be a difference puts women on a lower pedestal to men.

Do I think them calling her a **** was justified? No, I think it made them look like ***** if anything...but is it sexist and misogynistic? No.

What was misogynistic was the conversation they had about a week ago in front of Kimberly where they objectified her right in front of her face. That's sexism, not them shouting at and insulting Toya in an argument where let's be real, she gave as good as she got.

So yeah :laugh:

Well said zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz lol

[Ramsay]

Girls call fellas dickheads all the time and no one says a thing
But when a guy calls a girl a **** ITS SUDDENLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER DO YOU SPAWN OF SATAN

[Kizzy]

Um...excuse me? Any need for that? :crazy:

Did you see the wink? It's a joke jack.

[Jack_]

Did you see the wink? It's a joke jack.

Fair enough :suspect: it's late and I'm tired lol

[Kizzy]

No probs :)

[Mystic Mock]

Um...excuse me? Any need for that? :crazy:

Some people will take the piss Jack, I thought that you gave a great post that I was thinking about all night but couldn't quite put into words on the Forum.

[Mystic Mock]

And I really should read the whole thread before posting lol.

[Shaun]

Girls call fellas dickheads all the time and no one says a thing
But when a guy calls a girl a **** ITS SUDDENLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER DO YOU SPAWN OF SATAN

*confiscates your fedora*

[joeysteele]

I'm sure you all know I'm a bit of a feminist but there is something I do think needs addressing with regards to people (not just on here but in the house too - Mark and Danielle) calling Marlon and Ash sexist and misogynist specifically for the way in which they've spoken to Toya or for calling her a *******.

I get that people's intentions are well placed and that's all well and good but there is and should be no difference with the way in which men and women are treated when it comes to arguments and throwing insults around, everyone's fair game regardless of their gender. In fact the notion that women should somehow be excluded from being shouted at or called a **** purely because they're a woman is actually sexist in itself and not just to men but to women too because it suggests that they're somehow vulnerable and inferior and need protecting and to be treated differently. It's a bit like the argument that some people put forward saying lads mags and porn should be banned because it objectifies women when actually what that suggests is that women shouldn't be allowed to freely express their sexuality and do what they want with their bodies. Women are more than capable of being treated the same as men are (and actually that's what needs to happen, equal pay/representation in politics etc...we need women to have equal rights to men, this whole thing would mean they don't), to suggest there should be a difference puts women on a lower pedestal to men.

Do I think them calling her a **** was justified? No, I think it made them look like ***** if anything...but is it sexist and misogynistic? No.

What was misogynistic was the conversation they had about a week ago in front of Kimberly where they objectified her right in front of her face. That's sexism, not them shouting at and insulting Toya in an argument where let's be real, she gave as good as she got.

So yeah :laugh:

Excellent post Jack. A lot to think about in there.

[Cherie]

I don't know why the whole "prick" thing has been blown out of all proportion, if you can call someones names then that person has every right to call you names right back whatever gender you are, you cannot retain the moral high ground if you resort to slinging insults yourself. I think Marlon and Ash are being branded because of their "attitude" towards women rather than the name calling though.

[Firewire]

Did you write all that by yourself? well done honey ;)

They did objectify her a little but it was more a bravado thing, not misogyny. that word is banded around too often, true misogyny is rare.

No need to be patronising

[Jemal]

Great op

[Kizzy]

I feel sorry for lads though I really do, on the one hand you have Eric Prydz 'Call on me', Kylies 'sexersize' and countless other sexualised music videos,
Is it really so heinous there are blurred lines, who is really at fault here?

Marlon is not a misogynist for his 'creative visualisation', women are objectified regularly it's unfair to hold him up as an example in this way.. he saw something that got his juices flowing and he expressed it.
It was a little crude and yes it seemed to make kimberley uncomfortable, glamour is a sexist industry where women herself included place themselves in a position to be objectified.

A fantasy girl invaded his fantasy, I'm not attempting to totally exonerate him as he was insensitive but I can see how the imagery that is everywhere can have an influence, it wouldn't be doing it's job if it didn't.

[lily.]

Wow. I agree.


Is this real life :huh: :joker:

lol.

I agree with the OP too though... if you dish it out you better be ready to take it back.. whether you're a woman or a man..

[Nedusa]

I'm sure you all know I'm a bit of a feminist but there is something I do think needs addressing with regards to people (not just on here but in the house too - Mark and Danielle) calling Marlon and Ash sexist and misogynist specifically for the way in which they've spoken to Toya or for calling her a *******.

I get that people's intentions are well placed and that's all well and good but there is and should be no difference with the way in which men and women are treated when it comes to arguments and throwing insults around, everyone's fair game regardless of their gender. In fact the notion that women should somehow be excluded from being shouted at or called a **** purely because they're a woman is actually sexist in itself and not just to men but to women too because it suggests that they're somehow vulnerable and inferior and need protecting and to be treated differently. It's a bit like the argument that some people put forward saying lads mags and porn should be banned because it objectifies women when actually what that suggests is that women shouldn't be allowed to freely express their sexuality and do what they want with their bodies. Women are more than capable of being treated the same as men are (and actually that's what needs to happen, equal pay/representation in politics etc...we need women to have equal rights to men, this whole thing would mean they don't), to suggest there should be a difference puts women on a lower pedestal to men.

Do I think them calling her a **** was justified? No, I think it made them look like ***** if anything...but is it sexist and misogynistic? No.

What was misogynistic was the conversation they had about a week ago in front of Kimberly where they objectified her right in front of her face. That's sexism, not them shouting at and insulting Toya in an argument where let's be real, she gave as good as she got.

So yeah :laugh:


Good post Jack, you raise an interesting point. Some men view woman from a position of inferiority on certain issues and assume they need special protection and treatment. Whilst in other areas like jobs and pay they are treated less favourably.

I agree this needs to change and women should be treated on an equal footing to men as this imbalance is latent sexism.

The argument was fair as you said but the objectification of Kimberly was sexist and they should have received a warning from BB for doing it.






.

[smeagol]

a femanist named jack lol

equality is a one a way street. thats the reality unfortuantly

[Jack_]

I feel sorry for lads though I really do, on the one hand you have Eric Prydz 'Call on me', Kylies 'sexersize' and countless other sexualised music videos,
Is it really so heinous there are blurred lines, who is really at fault here?

Marlon is not a misogynist for his 'creative visualisation', women are objectified regularly it's unfair to hold him up as an example in this way.. he saw something that got his juices flowing and he expressed it.
It was a little crude and yes it seemed to make kimberley uncomfortable, glamour is a sexist industry where women herself included place themselves in a position to be objectified.

A fantasy girl invaded his fantasy, I'm not attempting to totally exonerate him as he was insensitive but I can see how the imagery that is everywhere can have an influence, it wouldn't be doing it's job if it didn't.

There's a time and a place to have conversations like them...men and women alike have them and that's perfectly fine, natural and to be expected, but to objectify someone when they're in earshot which makes them feel uncomfortable is degrading and out of order.

I don't think sexualised music videos or the modelling industry are to blame either, women are free to express their sexuality and I think most people are capable of making a distinction between real life and what is essentially acting. Just because women may act a certain way in music videos or porn, that doesn't give people the free reign to objectify them in their normal environments right in front of their faces. There is a difference.

[Miranda123]

Did you write all that by yourself? well done honey ;)

They did objectify her a little but it was more a bravado thing, not misogyny. that word is banded around too often, true misogyny is rare.

I dont think they objectified her

She acted like a c..t, they called her a c..t

Makes perfect sense to me

[Jack_]

Kizzy's post is about Kimberly which is a separate issue that I referenced at the end of my OP

[Kizzy]

There's a time and a place to have conversations like them...men and women alike have them and that's perfectly fine, natural and to be expected, but to objectify someone when they're in earshot which makes them feel uncomfortable is degrading and out of order.

I don't think sexualised music videos or the modelling industry are to blame either, women are free to express their sexuality and I think most people are capable of making a distinction between real life and what is essentially acting. Just because women may act a certain way in music videos or porn, that doesn't give people the free reign to objectify them in their normal environments right in front of their faces. There is a difference.

I don't believe they are expressing their sexuality, just obeying the 'sex sells' mantra from the companies ...it's the same for music, shampoo or yogurt.
I'm not absolving him totally but I feel it's a factor that the objectification of women is now becoming an accepted social norm.
I don't agree with it, but it must be confusing and here we see the product... A man who finds it hard to see women as anything but mothers or meat.

[Miranda123]

Kizzy's post is about Kimberly which is a separate issue that I referenced at the end of my OP

Sorry, my bad, I thought it was about the row

As far as Kimberley is concerned, she was right to talk to Marlon cause its one thing having guys ogle you on screen but another when youre in the same room.

I do like Marlon but he comes across as very immature for a 30 year old, nothing wrong with that but I think its the reason he says things like that, he's still a boy, not quite a man yet

[arista]

Yes a feminist I can agree with. The world must be coming to an end.


A Feminist
so rare these days

[Niamh.]

I don't believe they are expressing their sexuality, just obeying the 'sex sells' mantra from the companies ...it's the same for music, shampoo or yogurt.
I'm not absolving him totally but I feel it's a factor that the objectification of women is now becoming an accepted social norm.
I don't agree with it, but it must be confusing and here we see the product... A man who finds it hard to see women as anything but mothers or meat.

mmm I agree with that

[InOne]

Toya has an absolutely horrendous personality. She uses sexism to her advantage. I noticed this when she was banging on about being 'intimidated' by Ash. Absolute nonsense.

[Northern Monkey]

Yeah,Agree.Women are *****:joker:

[Northern Monkey]

Sorry, my bad, I thought it was about the row

As far as Kimberley is concerned, she was right to talk to Marlon cause its one thing having guys ogle you on screen but another when youre in the same room.

I do like Marlon but he comes across as very immature for a 30 year old, nothing wrong with that but I think its the reason he says things like that, he's still a boy, not quite a man yet

I think you are maybe slightly blinkered as to how men of ANY age speak to each other and sometimes infront of women.