Abortion - right or wrong?

[Redway]

I know this thread has been done to death on here but the latest controversy over Richard Dawkin's comments on Down Syndrome got me thinking about the whole issue in a broader context, not just for disabled babies ... do you agree with abortion or do you disagree?

[Livia]

I agree insomuch as it's the right of the woman to choose, and so long as it's done in the early stages, definitely under 12 weeks unless it's a medical emergency. I don't believe in abortion as a form of contraception and I don't believe in women being allowed repeated abortions.

[Tom4784]

Their body, their choice. I don't think men should get much of a choice in the matter, we don't carry the child or the risks involved in doing so. Whether a woman wants to go through with a pregnancy or not is their choice and their choice alone.

[the truth]

in right if rape or health risk, otherwise it is wrong and should be outlawed

[Ninastar]

IMO it's totally wrong... I think there's a disgusting 'idea' if you will, that if people have unprotected sex, they thing 'well if worse comes to the worse, abortion'. I think people dont realise how wrong it is in most cases. It's so easy to get an abortion here, i know quite a few girls that have. and I personally think it's wrong.

However, I do think it's it's just as wrong to 'force' someone to have that baby. I guess I'd rather people 'abort' their unwanted baby, than raise a baby they never wanted.

I just wish these people who wanted to abort their babies would give adoption a thought. It rarely happens in this country and I think it's such a shame. I think a hell of a lot more needs to be done. My worst hate in the world is bad parents. Some people just shouldn't be them... I find that in most cases, the parents are the worst are ones who didn't plan on having them/hardly even like kids. I just wish they'd realise that kids aren't just something you can raise with having no clue about. You have to care about them and do everything you can for them... Anyway, that's going OT...

Too long didnt read - I don't really believe in it, but I think it's better than allowing people who might not handle being a parent, become a parent.

[the truth]

IMO it's totally wrong... I think there's a disgusting 'idea' if you will, that if people have unprotected sex, they thing 'well if worse comes to the worse, abortion'. I think people dont realise how wrong it is in most cases. It's so easy to get an abortion here, i know quite a few girls that have. and I personally think it's wrong.

However, I do think it's it's just as wrong to 'force' someone to have that baby. I guess I'd rather people 'abort' their unwanted baby, than raise a baby they never wanted.

I just wish these people who wanted to abort their babies would give adoption a thought. It rarely happens in this country and I think it's such a shame. I think a hell of a lot more needs to be done. My worst hate in the world is bad parents. Some people just shouldn't be them... I find that in most cases, the parents are the worst are ones who didn't plan on having them/hardly even like kids. I just wish they'd realise that kids aren't just something you can raise with having no clue about. You have to care about them and do everything you can for them... Anyway, that's going OT...

Too long didnt read - I don't really believe in it, but I think it's better than allowing people who might not handle being a parent, become a parent.

Great post. Aborting a child is the cowards way out.

[coffee]

I AM PRO-CHOICE

Doesn't need to be if health risks or rape. If you are not ready to bring a baby into this world and you feel for you abortion is right then do it if you want to. It would be better if you just used protection but if you ever find yourself in this situation then at least after it all, don't get yourself in it again.

[Ninastar]

oh and before people jump on me for saying that it's easy enough to get an abortion, I mean to go to the doctors and ask for one. Not the actual process... i imagine that cant be very nice.

[Anaesthesia]

I am an adoptee, so I guess I'm glad my mother didn't believe it was the right thing to do!

Saying that, I am 100% pro-choice, with more or less the provisos Livia has already expressed.

[JoshBB]

It's wrong to abort imo, but the mother should have every right to abort the baby under the correct circumstances (eg. rape).

[Firewire]

I'm male, I shouldn't have an opinion other than it should be up to the woman.

[Tom4784]

Great post. Aborting a child is the cowards way out.

Spoken like a truly ignorant man who'll never know what it's like to be pregnant. Don't judge someone for their actions when you'll never be in their situation.

[coffee]

Spoken like a truly ignorant man who'll never know what it's like to be pregnant. Don't judge someone for their actions when you'll never be in their situation.

:hello:

[Vicky.]

I am pro-choice. However I completely disagree with people who have multiple abortions and use it as a contraceptive almost (I know these people are few and far between though)

[Liam-]

I believe that you shouldn't get yourself into a position where you have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place (Obviously not including rape) but it happens, so if a woman feels that she wouldn't be able to cope with having a baby and isn't ready for one, then It's their choice and their choice alone whether or not to have an abortion, considering the women are the ones who have to go through with either the pregnancy or abortion, then it is 100% down to the woman and her wants, no-one else should have a say in the matter.

[the truth]

Spoken like a truly ignorant man who'll never know what it's like to be pregnant. Don't judge someone for their actions when you'll never be in their situation.

spoken like a truly ignorant person who doesnt care about the mass murder of millions of healthy babies, in addition to the pressure put on women to have abortions and the lack of time taken to offer them and the fathers time , counselling and support to show them all the options open to them, including adoption, shame on you:nono:

[Redway]

the truth should be banned from threads like this

[user104658]

I don't believe that it should be made illegal, purely because of the massive can of worms that prohibition (in any form) opens up. People will always do what they want, whatever it is, making something illegal only serves to de-regulate and push actions underground. Which is never a good idea.

However - I personally find "convenience abortions" morally abhorrent ("I'm not ready", "It's too expensive", "I just don't want one", "blah blah blah economic position snore"... etc.). I honestly fully believe that anyone who isn't ready to accept the POSSIBLE consequences of having sex, shouldn't be having sex in the first place. Contraception used properly is almost completely effective but anyone (female OR male) "going all the way" should deal with the consequences. My eldest was conceived when I was 22 and my (now) wife was 20. I'm not going to pretend that I was like "oh, how lovely!". We were in a blind ****ing panic for months. But we just dealt with it, because we chose to have sex, and when it comes down to it... sex = babies. If you are ABSOLUTELY 100% definitely not ready to accept the possibility of parenthood, there are a myriad of other sexual activities that you can engage in that carry zero risk of pregnancy.

Finally... following on from the Dawkins thread - I'm not "hardcore pro-life" in all circumstances. There ARE circumstances under which I actually think it's the "right" choice - there are some genuinely horrific and agonising birth defects that essentially guarantee a few weeks / months of pain, followed by inevitable death. I don't think any good can come of an existence like that. There are also "mid-level" disabilities where I think it's a bit of a grey area but again, for me, really what it comes down to is whether or not there will be actual physical suffering and to what degree.

[the truth]

I believe that you shouldn't get yourself into a position where you have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place (Obviously not including rape) but it happens, so if a woman feels that she wouldn't be able to cope with having a baby and isn't ready for one, then It's their choice and their choice alone whether or not to have an abortion, considering the women are the ones who have to go through with either the pregnancy or abortion, then it is 100% down to the woman and her wants, no-one else should have a say in the matter.

time should be taken to give the mothers and fathers all the information and all the options, rather than rushing into killing babies. thousands of women and men later regret this decision, they often complain they felt pressurised or rushed and crucially they say they dont feel their were well informed enough about the options open to them , such as adoption and fostering etc
many live to regret this killing of the baby, it haunts the rest of their lives. in some cases these parents can never conceive again either. so much misery, so much pain and tragedy so much massive eternal regret , so must lost promise , lost opportunity, lost love, so many millions of lost innocent babies and broken hearted parents. and why all this misery? to satisfy the femi nazis

[Liam-]

spoken like a truly ignorant person who doesnt care about the mass murder of millions of healthy babies, in addition to the pressure put on women to have abortions and the lack of time taken to offer them and the fathers time , counselling and support to show them all the options open to them, including adoption, shame on you:nono:

At the point of being allowed to have an abortion, it isn't a baby, it hasn't got any sustainable advancement.. and the 'pressure' put on women to have abortions? I'm pretty sure no-one is pressured into having abortions.
The point of having an abortion is to put a stop to an unwanted pregnancy, so why would adoption be a better option for someone who doesn't want to go through with one?

[the truth]

the truth should be banned from threads like this

yey lets have fascism...typical radical liberal, free speech for all unless you disagree with me, what a sick joke

yes ban the truth, without the truth all thats left is lies and millions of dead innocent babies

[user104658]

I do also wish that more people would consider adoption as an option. People often quote the "over-stretched care system" as a reason not to, but that is in fact only because of older children entering care. There is a HUGE demand (from infertile and same-sex couples) for adoption of newborn babies. I've heard people argue against it saying that it isn't fair because of how hard it would be for the mother to give up the child but... wtf? When the alternative is just killing it in the womb? Ummmm...

[the truth]

At the point of being allowed to have an abortion, it isn't a baby, it hasn't got any sustainable advancement.. and the 'pressure' put on women to have abortions? I'm pretty sure no-one is pressured into having abortions.
The point of having an abortion is to put a stop to an unwanted pregnancy, so why would adoption be a better option for someone who doesn't want to go through with one?

pretty sure? you havent got aclue what your etalking about , tens of thousands of women complain they felt pressured and rushed into having abortions and felt that no one took the time to explain all the other options available. the pressure can come from the medical staff, the her parents, her family, her partner , her new partner etc etc vast numbers of women regret it forever, so too do many fathers

[user104658]

the 'pressure' put on women to have abortions? I'm pretty sure no-one is pressured into having abortions.
The point of having an abortion is to put a stop to an unwanted pregnancy, so why would adoption be a better option for someone who doesn't want to go through with one?

There is pressure, often from family or the "father" but also the pressure of societal exectation.

There are many women who have rushed (or been rushed) into choosing abortion who go on to regret it for the rest of their life. There are women who regret it almost instantly after it's too late and go on to suffer from depression or even post-traumatic stress disorder. To try to claim otherwise is just false... and grossly offensive to anyone who has chosen, and later, regretted, abortion.

[Vicky.]

I do also wish that more people would consider adoption as an option. People often quote the "over-stretched care system" as a reason not to, but that is in fact only because of older children entering care. There is a HUGE demand (from infertile and same-sex couples) for adoption of newborn babies. I've heard people argue against it saying that it isn't fair because of how hard it would be for the mother to give up the child but... wtf? When the alternative is just killing it in the womb? Ummmm...

I'm not sure the argument against it is quite that it would be hard to give up the child...more along the lines of hard to go through 9 months of pregnancy (from my experience that is NOT easy at all) and then labour, and then to give the child up. I know we are more medically advanced today too but there is also still risks involved with labour and birth. I very nearly needed a blood transfusion with my latest child :S

[the truth]

I do also wish that more people would consider adoption as an option. People often quote the "over-stretched care system" as a reason not to, but that is in fact only because of older children entering care. There is a HUGE demand (from infertile and same-sex couples) for adoption of newborn babies. I've heard people argue against it saying that it isn't fair because of how hard it would be for the mother to give up the child but... wtf? When the alternative is just killing it in the womb? Ummmm...

exactly, killing the baby is the cowards way out in a society that lacks the care , patience and compassion to simply build a better system that makes it easier for parents to have children and foster or adopt them where necessary. adoption is evil unless in cases of rape of serious health risks

[GypsyGoth]

Abortions for everybody!!! *point point*
http://i.imgur.com/5d61LHK.gif


Yay abortions!!
http://i.imgur.com/9FxkwFq.gif

[Liam-]

pretty sure? you havent got aclue what your etalking about , tens of thousands of women complain they felt pressured and rushed into having abortions and felt that no one took the time to explain all the other options available. the pressure can come from the medical staff, the her parents, her family, her partner , her new partner etc etc vast numbers of women regret it forever, so too do many fathers

Please don't tell me i don't know what I'm talking about, that is beyond patronizing.
Yes, some people may live to regret it and some may feel pressurized by people to go through with an abortion, but that doesn't mean that it's a bad thing over all, some woman have abortions early on in their teenage years because they wouldn't be able to cope with a baby or they weren't supported by their family or the father, or they weren't financially stable, but in the future turn their life around and find that they could have dealt with keeping the baby.. but most of the time when someone has an abortion, at that time it would have been the right thing to do, for the woman and for the sake of the child that could have been.

[Braden]

I don't think it's right per se, but there are circumstances where abortion is a rationalised thing to do (like most people have said, rape is one of them).

I think it comes down to the whole "who am I to tell someone what is right and wrong", if someone wants an abortion I would uncomfortable with even suggesting that they're wrong to do so.

[Dollface]

IMO it's totally wrong... I think there's a disgusting 'idea' if you will, that if people have unprotected sex, they thing 'well if worse comes to the worse, abortion'. I think people dont realise how wrong it is in most cases. It's so easy to get an abortion here, i know quite a few girls that have. and I personally think it's wrong.

However, I do think it's it's just as wrong to 'force' someone to have that baby. I guess I'd rather people 'abort' their unwanted baby, than raise a baby they never wanted.

I just wish these people who wanted to abort their babies would give adoption a thought. It rarely happens in this country and I think it's such a shame. I think a hell of a lot more needs to be done. My worst hate in the world is bad parents. Some people just shouldn't be them... I find that in most cases, the parents are the worst are ones who didn't plan on having them/hardly even like kids. I just wish they'd realise that kids aren't just something you can raise with having no clue about. You have to care about them and do everything you can for them... Anyway, that's going OT...

Too long didnt read - I don't really believe in it, but I think it's better than allowing people who might not handle being a parent, become a parent.

I agree with this

[Vicky.]

I'm not sure people are rushed into abortions, however the proper care is definitely not there.

Against my original judgement (I have written about this before on here anyway), here goes. I had an abortion at 15/16 years old after being spiked and ending up pregnant. I wrote a lengthy post about it a few years back but from what I remember it was quite graphic explaining exactly what happens exactly in an early abortion, so its pretty grim so I wont dig it up. However, long story short..I was told I would get to see a psychiatrist person to make sure I was making the decision for the right reasons and stuff before taking the first tablet. The day I went, the psychiatrist was off work..but they still went ahead and gave me the tablet anyway. I never felt rushed into making the decision, and also it was a surprisingly long process given that its best doing it earlier in the pregnancy. Took about 2/3 weeks overall as 2 doctors had to agree and stuff.

Edit. Actually http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2632428&postcount=75

Do not click that link if you are easily upset, especially in matters like this as it is quite graphic for on here.

[user104658]

I'm not sure the argument against it is quite that it would be hard to give up the child...more along the lines of hard to go through 9 months of pregnancy (from my experience that is NOT easy at all) and then labour, and then to give the child up. I know we are more medically advanced today too but there is also still risks involved with labour and birth. I very nearly needed a blood transfusion with my latest child :S

A vast amount of the risk is BECAUSE of medical advancement, but that's another debate entirely :joker:. Anyway, I do understand that pregnancy takes a massive and permanent toll on the body, and I'm by no means saying that adoption should be a default. Just that I don't think many people even actually put any real thought into it. I don't think it's properly SUGGESTED as an alternative, to those who do feel strong enough to carry on with the pregnancy but don't feel able to care for a child. I don't think it's explained that a newborn being adopted into a good home is all but a certainty, and many think that the child would "just go into care". Basically, I think that anyone going to their GP to discuss an abortion should be given literature on adoption to read before they come to a final decision... but, they're not. In fact, very few questions are asked at all.

[Ninastar]

I do also wish that more people would consider adoption as an option. People often quote the "over-stretched care system" as a reason not to, but that is in fact only because of older children entering care. There is a HUGE demand (from infertile and same-sex couples) for adoption of newborn babies. I've heard people argue against it saying that it isn't fair because of how hard it would be for the mother to give up the child but... wtf? When the alternative is just killing it in the womb? Ummmm...

well said!

[joeysteele]

This is always a hard one for me to comment on as being Male,I accept it is easy for me to say this, that and the other as to the issue but never having to go through all the main trauma myself.

I have in the end voted wrong but it should still be the Mother's choice.

I would prefer it not to happen but accept in some situations,a decision may have to be made, at that point I would agree with and support the woman as to whatever her decision may be.

Some great posts on here as to this and all make good reasons either way.

[Livia]

I would never want to drive abortion into the backstreets where it was before it as legalised. I also believe every child should be a wanted child. We've already got thousands of unwanted and neglected children in care. People who spent time and energy campaigning against abortion might to better to raise their flag in that particular battle instead and make sure children who are already here are not pushed from pillar to post, unloved, unwanted and neglected.

As for the adoption solution... very few women choose that option, although it seems to be the one men support most. And it's not hard to see the reason why. And as for doing it for same sex and childless couples... if they really - really - want a child, there are enough unwanted children begging for someone to love them.

[Livia]

A vast amount of the risk is BECAUSE of medical advancement, but that's another debate entirely :joker:. Anyway, I do understand that pregnancy takes a massive and permanent toll on the body, and I'm by no means saying that adoption should be a default. Just that I don't think many people even actually put any real thought into it. I don't think it's properly SUGGESTED as an alternative, to those who do feel strong enough to carry on with the pregnancy but don't feel able to care for a child. I don't think it's explained that a newborn being adopted into a good home is all but a certainty, and many think that the child would "just go into care". Basically, I think that anyone going to their GP to discuss an abortion should be given literature on adoption to read before they come to a final decision... but, they're not. In fact, very few questions are asked at all.

I think you're underestimating the thought most women put into having an abortion. I'm sure the vast majority consider every avenue before they make probably the toughest decision of their life. I'm sure there are very few women who don't look at every aspect.

[Livia]

exactly, killing the baby is the cowards way out in a society that lacks the care , patience and compassion to simply build a better system that makes it easier for parents to have children and foster or adopt them where necessary. adoption is evil unless in cases of rape of serious health risks

Harsh words from someone who will never have to carry and deliver a baby but has so very much to say about it. I'd say the real coward's way out it to make someone pregnant and then leave her to get on with it.

It is not a baby at the point it's aborted, it's a foetus. Continually calling it "a baby" may be provocative but it isn't true.

[AnnieK]

I am pro choice.

I personally would never consider abortion unless it was absolutely medically advised. I spent many years going through fertility treatments unsuccessfully but would still not condemn anyone who considers abortion. It is the mother who has to go through with the pregnancy including the hormone driven feelings, the long and often excruciating labour to then be flooded with another swirl of hormones that make the most "ready" mother often turn into a gibbering wreck. If she does not feel up to that how she could go through it and give up her child is beyond me which is why I feel a lot of people dismiss adoption.

What also makes me very sad is the number of potential adopters who will only consider babies. The number of older children and sibling groups which are begging for forever homes is astonishing. Certainly the older children are often more affected by the circumstances they have lived through but surely they are as deserving of a loving family and I know had I not had my "miracle" baby I would have adopted and age wouldn't have been a huge issue for me.

[hijaxers]

I do also wish that more people would consider adoption as an option. People often quote the "over-stretched care system" as a reason not to, but that is in fact only because of older children entering care. There is a HUGE demand (from infertile and same-sex couples) for adoption of newborn babies. I've heard people argue against it saying that it isn't fair because of how hard it would be for the mother to give up the child but... wtf? When the alternative is just killing it in the womb? Ummmm...

Giving up a child - whether forced or a willing decision is something that truly does affect the rest of your life - it is not as simple as other members seem to think especially when plenty of adopted children have been placed with not very nice people ! You only have to watch families reunited to see the trauma and believe they only show the happy ones! I could go on about this subject forever having been forced by my family to have a child adopted ! Fortunately the last private adoption in my city before the law changed.
i do feel the truth is never black and white ! I just think is marvellous that kids these days are more in love with their phones than exploring what the other sex has to offer

[Kizzy]

I'm not sure people are rushed into abortions, however the proper care is definitely not there.

Against my original judgement (I have written about this before on here anyway), here goes. I had an abortion at 15/16 years old after being spiked and ending up pregnant. I wrote a lengthy post about it a few years back but from what I remember it was quite graphic explaining exactly what happens exactly in an early abortion, so its pretty grim so I wont dig it up. However, long story short..I was told I would get to see a psychiatrist person to make sure I was making the decision for the right reasons and stuff before taking the first tablet. The day I went, the psychiatrist was off work..but they still went ahead and gave me the tablet anyway. I never felt rushed into making the decision, and also it was a surprisingly long process given that its best doing it earlier in the pregnancy. Took about 2/3 weeks overall as 2 doctors had to agree and stuff.

Edit. Actually http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2632428&postcount=75

Do not click that link if you are easily upset, especially in matters like this as it is quite graphic for on here.

It's for reasons like this it's impossible to ever make a decision either way, no 2 scenarios are ever identical and I would never judge anyone for doing what is right for them.
I think that the situation as it is in Ireland is draconian.

[hijaxers]

It's for reasons like this it's impossible to ever make a decision either way, no 2 scenarios are ever identical and I would never judge anyone for doing what is right for them.
I think that the situation as it is in Ireland is draconian.

I agree Irelands attitude should have been left in the dark ages - the sad history of whats happened in the past - to girls and boys should be enough to at least get people talking about changing the future:

[JoshBB]

Abortions for everybody!!! *point point*
http://i.imgur.com/5d61LHK.gif


Yay abortions!!
http://i.imgur.com/9FxkwFq.gif

using my gifs :rolleyes:

[Tom4784]

spoken like a truly ignorant person who doesnt care about the mass murder of millions of healthy babies, in addition to the pressure put on women to have abortions and the lack of time taken to offer them and the fathers time , counselling and support to show them all the options open to them, including adoption, shame on you:nono:

Shame on you for your wilfull ignorance and your continued misogyny. Once again, Embryos are not babies, they are a collection of non-sentient cells. They are about as close to being a baby as your fingernails are. Calling them babies just makes you sound like a fool.

Stop trying to sound like you care about the women in these situations, we all know that you don't. You have no understanding of this situation and it's obvious by how blindingly moronic your posts are.

[Anaesthesia]

Shame on you for your wilfull ignorance and your continued misogyny. Once again, Embryos are not babies, they are a collection of non-sentient cells. They are about as close to being a baby as your fingernails are. Calling them babies just makes you sound like a fool.

Stop trying to sound like you care about the women in these situations, we all know that you don't. You have no understanding of this situation and it's obvious by how blindingly moronic your posts are.

:clap1:

[Angelika]

Its a very complicated choice and issue.

Its should never to be used as contraception and always remembered that all surgery carries risk but that unregulated back-street abortions carried an even higher risk to life.

[Princess]

I am pro-choice but I do think it's more complicated than that. I'm not sure I could ever one, not unless the child was severely disabled. It's up to the mother and whether she feels she can support the baby and if she can't, then that's her choice and no one elses.

Abortion is illegal in Ireland and it infruriates me. Women can still get abortions but they have to fly to the UK to do it, so basically only people who can afford it can get an abortion. Women are always going to get abortions, they might as well have one safely.

[the truth]

I am an adoptee, so I guess I'm glad my mother didn't believe it was the right thing to do!

Saying that, I am 100% pro-choice, with more or less the provisos Livia has already expressed.

if it had been left to the devices of many on here you would have been killed in the womb and never had achance to live or get adopted. You need to seriously think long and hard about that monumental life or death fact

[the truth]

I'm not sure people are rushed into abortions, however the proper care is definitely not there.

Against my original judgement (I have written about this before on here anyway), here goes. I had an abortion at 15/16 years old after being spiked and ending up pregnant. I wrote a lengthy post about it a few years back but from what I remember it was quite graphic explaining exactly what happens exactly in an early abortion, so its pretty grim so I wont dig it up. However, long story short..I was told I would get to see a psychiatrist person to make sure I was making the decision for the right reasons and stuff before taking the first tablet. The day I went, the psychiatrist was off work..but they still went ahead and gave me the tablet anyway. I never felt rushed into making the decision, and also it was a surprisingly long process given that its best doing it earlier in the pregnancy. Took about 2/3 weeks overall as 2 doctors had to agree and stuff.

Edit. Actually http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2632428&postcount=75

Do not click that link if you are easily upset, especially in matters like this as it is quite graphic for on here.

i agree the proper care isnt there, thats why we are the worst abortionists in the western world with over a million babie skilled off per 6 years, horrific...i think its 1 in 5 babies and murdered in the womb in this shameful country

[the truth]

I don't think it's right per se, but there are circumstances where abortion is a rationalised thing to do (like most people have said, rape is one of them).

I think it comes down to the whole "who am I to tell someone what is right and wrong", if someone wants an abortion I would uncomfortable with even suggesting that they're wrong to do so.

maybe you should be uncomfortable suggesting theyre right to kill a baby

[the truth]

Please don't tell me i don't know what I'm talking about, that is beyond patronizing.
Yes, some people may live to regret it and some may feel pressurized by people to go through with an abortion, but that doesn't mean that it's a bad thing over all, some woman have abortions early on in their teenage years because they wouldn't be able to cope with a baby or they weren't supported by their family or the father, or they weren't financially stable, but in the future turn their life around and find that they could have dealt with keeping the baby.. but most of the time when someone has an abortion, at that time it would have been the right thing to do, for the woman and for the sake of the child that could have been.

complete and utter nonsense. the sake of the child that could have been? the child is dead , killed forever , silently temrinated and never given a split second of life on earth to fulfill their potential.

[the truth]

I agree with this

you agree its better to kill the baby just in case the parent isnt a very good parent? what kind of logic is that?

[Jack_]

Well it's not exactly nice or desirable but I'm pro choice. And I definitely don't think it should be outlawed either, much like drugs things like this being illegal make the whole thing incredibly dangerous because people will still go through with it if they want to anyway.

[Ninastar]

you agree its better to kill the baby just in case the parent isnt a very good parent? what kind of logic is that?

you said i had a great post on the first page???

[the truth]

Well it's not exactly nice or desirable but I'm pro choice. And I definitely don't think it should be outlawed either, much like drugs things like this being illegal make the whole thing incredibly dangerous because people will still go through with it if they want to anyway.

what about the choices, the pressure to abort, the time and resources to allow the mother and father the information and specialists at hand to open all options to them....adoption, fostering , surrogacy etc so many parents who do abort have their lives destroyed by regrt forever, not to forget the killing of the innocent baby in the womb. the biggets mistake of pro choices is reducing this massive disaster to a male v female petty battle. just as man females are killed off as male babies. it should never ever be a gender issue. its all about proactively ensuring all options are on the table in every single hospital and no pressure is ever applied to the parents to abort. sadly as we see with the dreadful state of the nhs, the standards vary massively as does the service provide with the post code lottery

[the truth]

you said i had a great post on the first page???

you did but i cant believe what you agreed to on the 2nd page , this particula line

" I think it's better than allowing people who might not handle being a parent, become a parent"
you agreed with this????

[Bluerang1]

Pro-Life. But tbh we're overpopulated anyway. My deal is don't have sex if you don't want a baby.

Now in terms of rape, I don't think the baby should have to suffer not experiencing life but as the mother had no say in the case I guess... :/

[JoshBB]

Pro-Life. But tbh we're overpopulated anyway. My deal is don't have sex if you don't want a baby.

Now in terms of rape, I don't think the baby should have to suffer not experiencing life but as the mother had no say in the case I guess... :/

But if it doesn't experience life how can it suffer?

[Jord]

I personally think it's wrong, however, it is entirely up to the parents of the unborn child. If they want to have an abortion, for whatever reason, then that's their choice and nobody else's.

[the truth]

But if it doesn't experience life how can it suffer?
are you serious???

its living in the womb?

by that logic why not strangle the baby with the umbilical cord

[Sam:)]

I kind of think its one of them each to there own sort of thing. I dont think a lot of people think about the decision they're making and are psychologically ready. I just think a lot more assessment needs to go on before an abortion takes place. It should somewhat have a long interview about what she views as the pros and cons, informing the woman of what exactly is going to happen and discussing alternate ways (Adoption etc.) I can see peoples reasoning behind objecting to it but I just dont think its fair to force someone to have a child, nor do I agree with it becoming a form of contraception. It should be seen as a last resort, available but not seen as an easy option. Now a days with condoms being basically sold everywhere you have to be quite dosy to willingly have un-protected sex.

If it were to happen to me I think as a bloke, if abortion was easily available here and I did get someone pregnant I would probably ask her to abort it. Which I know I would regret, its one of them things that would never leave my mind.

[Dollface]

you agree its better to kill the baby just in case the parent isnt a very good parent? what kind of logic is that?

If a woman gets pregnant when she doesn't want a baby, wouldn't it be better to abort it (considering it isn't a fully formed "baby" yet) ..rather than giving birth to it knowing she doesn't want it, probably not giving it the love it deserves, and possibly neglecting it?
"Kill the baby" what a pathetic attempt at guilt-tripping :shrug:

[user104658]

Once again, Embryos are not babies, they are a collection of non-sentient cells. They are about as close to being a baby as your fingernails are.

I'm sorry but this is only true at the early development stage... beyond 12 weeks gestation you're simply incorrect. Abortions are legally carried out until 20+ weeks.

By implication, in terms of morality, aborting at say 16 weeks is logically no different to drowning a baby at birth. It is no more or less human, and a newborn has no more or less "life experience". If you're defining sentience as consciousness, then a 16 week old fetus is sentient. If you're defining sentience as having a concept or fear of mortality, then you might as well advocate the postpartum abortion of toddlers, because they have neither.

Incidentally... bucket-drowning was a fairly common method of "birth control", up until a hundred or so years ago...


Anyway, all I'm saying is, you are perfectly entitled to define your own moral stance on the issue of abortion... but, I find it really grating when people use the (completely inaccurate) "bundle of cells" justification. It's true for a couple of weeks, but throughout the majority of a pregnancy, it's just a completely false statement.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its necessary and should be encouraged a lot more in the 3rd world

[Liam-]

complete and utter nonsense. the sake of the child that could have been? the child is dead , killed forever , silently temrinated and never given a split second of life on earth to fulfill their potential.

It is not a child, it is an embryo without any development, you can say 'kill the child/baby' all you want, guilt tripping people won't get them to change their minds.. If we go by that logic and every single doctor told women with unwanted pregnancies that they shouldn't have one because they are killing a baby, then not only would we have a whole lot more people in the world, when we're already overpopulated anyway, but there would also be children in the world who weren't wanted and that could lead to them being neglected or abused because women have been forced to keep a baby that they didn't want and couldn't connect or bond with.. If an embryo is terminated before it starts developing into a baby, then it doesn't suffer, it has no knowledge that it ever existed, so how would it suffer?

[user104658]

Its necessary and should be encouraged a lot more in the 3rd world

:facepalm: If the 3rd world could afford abortions then it wouldn't need population control.

[Livia]

I'm sorry but this is only true at the early development stage... beyond 12 weeks gestation you're simply incorrect. Abortions are legally carried out until 20+ weeks.

By implication, in terms of morality, aborting at say 16 weeks is logically no different to drowning a baby at birth. It is no more or less human, and a newborn has no more or less "life experience". If you're defining sentience as consciousness, then a 16 week old fetus is sentient. If you're defining sentience as having a concept or fear of mortality, then you might as well advocate the postpartum abortion of toddlers, because they have neither.

Incidentally... bucket-drowning was a fairly common method of "birth control", up until a hundred or so years ago...


Anyway, all I'm saying is, you are perfectly entitled to define your own moral stance on the issue of abortion... but, I find it really grating when people use the (completely inaccurate) "bundle of cells" justification. It's true for a couple of weeks, but throughout the majority of a pregnancy, it's just a completely false statement.


Abortions after 12 weeks must be recommended by a doctor. I'm aware that there is some manipulation of that law, and I would like to see that ended. Only for serious medical complications should abortions be carried out after 12 weeks. But I still agree with abortion up to that point if that's the choice of the woman because I believe every child should be a wanted child.

[Crimson Dynamo]

:facepalm: If the 3rd world could afford abortions then it wouldn't need population control.

That does not make sense and i am not talking about them affording it.

[Tom4784]

I'm sorry but this is only true at the early development stage... beyond 12 weeks gestation you're simply incorrect. Abortions are legally carried out until 20+ weeks.

By implication, in terms of morality, aborting at say 16 weeks is logically no different to drowning a baby at birth. It is no more or less human, and a newborn has no more or less "life experience". If you're defining sentience as consciousness, then a 16 week old fetus is sentient. If you're defining sentience as having a concept or fear of mortality, then you might as well advocate the postpartum abortion of toddlers, because they have neither.

Incidentally... bucket-drowning was a fairly common method of "birth control", up until a hundred or so years ago...


Anyway, all I'm saying is, you are perfectly entitled to define your own moral stance on the issue of abortion... but, I find it really grating when people use the (completely inaccurate) "bundle of cells" justification. It's true for a couple of weeks, but throughout the majority of a pregnancy, it's just a completely false statement.

The majority of abortions take place during the embryonic stage so for the most part it's a true statement.

[Kizzy]

'The vast majority of abortions are performed at under 13 weeks (91% in 2011). There
has been a continuing increase in the proportion of abortions that are performed under 10
weeks since 2002. In 2011, 78% of abortions were performed at under 10 weeks,
compared to 77% in 2010 and 58% in 2001.'

Embryo to fetus is at 9 weeks, best the procedure is sooner rather than later.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/213386/Commentary1.pdf

[the truth]

It is not a child, it is an embryo without any development, you can say 'kill the child/baby' all you want, guilt tripping people won't get them to change their minds.. If we go by that logic and every single doctor told women with unwanted pregnancies that they shouldn't have one because they are killing a baby, then not only would we have a whole lot more people in the world, when we're already overpopulated anyway, but there would also be children in the world who weren't wanted and that could lead to them being neglected or abused because women have been forced to keep a baby that they didn't want and couldn't connect or bond with.. If an embryo is terminated before it starts developing into a baby, then it doesn't suffer, it has no knowledge that it ever existed, so how would it suffer?

it is alive in the womb, fact.

[the truth]

If a woman gets pregnant when she doesn't want a baby, wouldn't it be better to abort it (considering it isn't a fully formed "baby" yet) ..rather than giving birth to it knowing she doesn't want it, probably not giving it the love it deserves, and possibly neglecting it?
"Kill the baby" what a pathetic attempt at guilt-tripping :shrug:

no. if shes healthy and not been raped, have the baby and have it adopted. at least that way you dont kill the baby and it gets a chance to live.

[the truth]

'The vast majority of abortions are performed at under 13 weeks (91% in 2011). There
has been a continuing increase in the proportion of abortions that are performed under 10
weeks since 2002. In 2011, 78% of abortions were performed at under 10 weeks,
compared to 77% in 2010 and 58% in 2001.'

Embryo to fetus is at 9 weeks, best the procedure is sooner rather than later.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/213386/Commentary1.pdf

at 24 weeks you have fully formed babies. thousands of babies born before 24 weeks have lived long healthy lives .........babies have survived and thrived being born after just 20 weeks. yet were allowed to murder them up to 24 weeks?

[Tom4784]

it is alive in the womb, fact.

Except for near enough the entirety of the first trimester (when the majority of abortions take place) it isn't.

[the truth]

Except for near enough the entirety of the first trimester (when the majority of abortions take place) it isn't.

it is alive and its fully formed during the process....thousands of babies are killed after 20 weeks, at which stage many are fully formed babies. who cares about killing a few thousand fully formed innocent babies eh????

[Liam-]

it is alive and its fully formed during the process....thousands of babies are killed after 20 weeks, at which stage many are fully formed babies. who cares about killing a few thousand fully formed innocent babies eh????

We're talking about abortion before the first 12 weeks, which is the time where nothing has developed, so no babies are being killed as they are not babies

[Tom4784]

it is alive and its fully formed during the process....thousands of babies are killed after 20 weeks, at which stage many are fully formed babies. who cares about killing a few thousand fully formed innocent babies eh????

There is no point in talking to you, you are wilfully ignorant and you always will be. Nothing you say is factual, you are pulling things out of your arse and your presenting them as facts. A baby does not just pop into existence fully formed, it's not alive during the embryonic period (in which a large majority of abortions take place) and that's a fact, trying to argue against it will make you look more foolish (if that's even possible) then you do already.

[Redway]

no. if shes healthy and not been raped, have the baby and have it adopted. at least that way you dont kill the baby and it gets a chance to live.

That's the thing, though. I for one am opposed to abortion purely for the fact that I believe all babies should be allowed to live - even if they're not organisms - and that once fertilisation occurs they deserve the right to be what they could've been but I don't lie to myself that they're fully formed actual babies. Calling it murder is ridiculous.

[the truth]

We're talking about abortion before the first 12 weeks, which is the time where nothing has developed, so no babies are being killed as they are not babies

NO WERE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT 1 part of this tragedy....babies are being killed off right up to 24 weeks as you well know? why are you ignoring all the millions of babies being killed between 12 and 24 weeks?

[Livia]

NO WERE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT 1 part of this tragedy....babies are being killed off right up to 24 weeks as you well know? why are you ignoring all the millions of babies being killed between 12 and 24 weeks?

Millions? Where are the stats you're referring to, exactly?

[Liam-]

NO WERE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT 1 part of this tragedy....babies are being killed off right up to 24 weeks as you well know? why are you ignoring all the millions of babies being killed between 12 and 24 weeks?

I'm not ignoring it, don't get on your high horse with me please.
The post you quoted was talking about abortions before 12 weeks, but you avoided that point and mentioned killing babies again.
yes people do have abortions past 12 weeks, that's an unavoidable fact, but i don't think Women should be made to feel worse about the hardest decision in their life, by being reminded of it, don't you think they'd be suffering enough? but if an abortion is needed by a person after 12 weeks of pregnancy, then it's their decision and no-one else's.

[Liam-]

Millions? Where are the stats you're referring to, exactly?

I'm not actually sure whether they're being serious or doing it for a reaction tbh :conf:

[the truth]

I'm not ignoring it, don't get on your high horse with me please.
The post you quoted was talking about abortions before 12 weeks, but you avoided that point and mentioned killing babies again.
yes people do have abortions past 12 weeks, that's an unavoidable fact, but i don't think Women should be made to feel worse about the hardest decision in their life, by being reminded of it, don't you think they'd be suffering enough? but if an abortion is needed by a person after 12 weeks of pregnancy, then it's their decision and no-one else's.

if you were in charge how many babies do you want to see murdered? would you take it up to 28 weeks 36 weeks? what if its born disabled? would you want to kill that baby too? where do you draw the line in killing babies?

[Liam-]

if you were in charge how many babies do you want to see murdered? would you take it up to 28 weeks 36 weeks? what if its born disabled? would you want to kill that baby too? where do you draw the line in killing babies?

Oh my god, i pray someone takes your keyboard away one of these days.
This post makes no sense whatsoever, no-one in this thread, including myself, has said anything of the sort, you are just posting nonsense now and trying to besmirch peoples characters because they don't agree with you, we get it, you're against abortion, but ridiculous posts like that won't make your argument any stronger, why get into a discussion or a debate if you're going to throw things like that around?

[Tom4784]

There's no point in replying to The Truth, he doesn't deal in facts, only delusions.

[Vicky.]

I think the huge majority of abortions carried out after 12 weeks are for medical reasons anyway... You dont get the downs screening test until your 12 week scan (which can be anywhere between 12-14 weeks anyway) and then if you are high risk they do more tests on you.

I personally do not see a fetus as a baby in the early stages, so I do not see it as 'killing babies'. After 12 weeks though it is (IMO) but as I say, I doubt many abortions are carried out after that point except for medical reasons.

[Anaesthesia]

if it had been left to the devices of many on here you would have been killed in the womb and never had achance to live or get adopted. You need to seriously think long and hard about that monumental life or death fact

And I would have known nothing about it because I would not have been a sentient being.

[LukeB]

wrong!

[the truth]

Millions? Where are the stats you're referring to, exactly?
160,000 abortions per annumn in the uk......thats millions across europe...tens of millions worldwide...possibly 100s of millions....a large number of these are disabled too

[the truth]

Oh my god, i pray someone takes your keyboard away one of these days.
This post makes no sense whatsoever, no-one in this thread, including myself, has said anything of the sort, you are just posting nonsense now and trying to besmirch peoples characters because they don't agree with you, we get it, you're against abortion, but ridiculous posts like that won't make your argument any stronger, why get into a discussion or a debate if you're going to throw things like that around?

in my list of pirorities do i care more about your precious ego or the killing of millions of innocent babies. Ill go with the baies, now dont take that personally.

[Liam-]

in my list of pirorities do i care more about your precious ego or the killing of millions of innocent babies. Ill go with the baies, now dont take that personally.

I have an ego because I don't agree with you? Okay then my dear, I'm not discussing this with you any further.

[the truth]

I have an ego because I don't agree with you? Okay then my dear, I'm not discussing this with you any further.

ok bye dear. leave the thread to people who care about all the millions of innocent dead babies

[Redway]

160,000 abortions per annumn in the uk......thats millions across europe...tens of millions worldwide...possibly 100s of millions....a large number of these are disabled too

Any statistics to back that up, or just speculation?

[mrflibble]

Always right. No question about it. Until the embryo becomes a fetus, it neither has a beating heart nor a working brain and feeds directly off the mother, therefore it's practically a virus 'neither dead or alive' and not a living creature. If someone doesn't want a child, doesn't feel ready for a child, or the pregnancy is a result of unwanted intercourse then they should be fully in the right to decide what happens next. I find it disgusting that people still believe they have the right to dictate what anyone else is allowed to do with their body.

[the truth]

Always right. No question about it. Until the embryo becomes a fetus, it neither has a beating heart nor a working brain and feeds directly off the mother, therefore it's practically a virus 'neither dead or alive' and not a living creature. If someone doesn't want a child, doesn't feel ready for a child, or the pregnancy is a result of unwanted intercourse then they should be fully in the right to decide what happens next. I find it disgusting that people still believe they have the right to dictate what anyone else is allowed to do with their body.

so by that cruel logic youd allow termination right up to the day of birth? would you? as for dictating, wrong again. what a confrontational exaggerated position. what im talking about is putting in place a far stronger system of support for parents , giving them more information, specialist advice, time and less pressure to rush to abort. more info on adoption, foster, surrogacy etc this is what were talking about....no one can force a person not to abort, thats impossible. it takes a far depeer profound love to offer more support and time and resources to these parents struggling with pregnancy.....the poor, the uneducated, the impoverished, the abused, the drug riddled, the drunks....none of whom may see the wood for the trees, many of whom may not understand the future, the options, the possibilities, some may not know hot to cloth , feed or raise a baby.........rushing to kill the baby in the womb is the saddest option in a sad society with record abortion levels. we must forget the petty gender war and come together to work together to find more support for parents. hopefully this will rduce the rush to abort and reduce too the life of pain and regret

[JTM45]

It definitely shouldn't be used as a form of contraception for careless/lazy/thoughtless people but under normal circumstances and at an early stage i think it's completely up to a woman to decide whether she wants to carry on with a pregnancy or terminate it.
It's not anyone's business to tell another person what they can or can't do with their body/pregnancy!
I'd much rather see a woman, especially in cases of underage pregnancies where the pregnancy was a mistake, terminate a pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into an over-populated World that's already got so many unwanted and un-cared for children in it!
And when people start bringing bloody religion into it............don't even get me started on that one!!!! Religion has nothing to do with anything!
For anyone to say that a girl or woman who was raped (forcibly impregnated against their will!!!) should be made to continue with that pregnancy is just inhuman and disgusting to me! Nobody has the right to enforce that on another person nor should they ever have a right or even have a say in it. It's not their situation or their business!

[the truth]

It definitely shouldn't be used as a form of contraception for careless/lazy/thoughtless people but under normal circumstances and at an early stage i think it's completely up to a woman to decide whether she wants to carry on with a pregnancy or terminate it.
It's not anyone's business to tell another person what they can or can't do with their body/pregnancy!
I'd much rather see a woman, especially in cases of underage pregnancies where the pregnancy was a mistake, terminate a pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into an over-populated World that's already got so many unwanted and un-cared for children in it!
And when people start bringing bloody religion into it............don't even get me started on that one!!!! Religion has nothing to do with anything!
For anyone to say that a girl or woman who was raped (forcibly impregnated against their will!!!) should be made to continue with that pregnancy is just inhuman and disgusting to me! Nobody has the right to enforce that on another person nor should they ever have a right or even have a say in it. It's not their situation or their business!

i think your comments about under age pregnancies are horrific.

[JTM45]

i think your comments about under age pregnancies are horrific.

Please elaborate on your ridiculously over-dramatic statement.:idc:

If you think underage girls who were too immature to realize the consequences of having un-protected sex or just didn't care should be forced to have a baby they don't want then that really is horrific!

A pregnancy is not instantly a living baby.

[Dollface]

A pregnancy is not instantly a living baby.

:clap1: This is what "the truth" can't seem to understand :nono:

[Kizzy]

Hey, let's not move away from the fact it is alive...
Yes the procedure is easier the earlier it's performed but the psychological impact is as great... Let's not lose sight of that, it's not a decision made or dealt with lightly.

[the truth]

Please elaborate on your ridiculously over-dramatic statement.:idc:

If you think underage girls who were too immature to realize the consequences of having un-protected sex or just didn't care should be forced to have a baby they don't want then that really is horrific!

A pregnancy is not instantly a living baby.

why bother? you want all teen pregnancies to be killed off, I dont. We are worlds apart.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Dont forget that around 20,000 children die every day of the year from preventable disease and hunger

[Anaesthesia]

OK. Thetruth. Please answer me this.

Do you think it is right that children are giving birth to and bringing up children without ANY way of providing for them except via the state, and where they are morally, emotionally and financially INCAPABLE of providing a stable and healthy upbringing for that child? If you do believe that, I would be interested in your justification. Please provide a reasoned argument other than the across the board abhorrence you are currently showing. In many cases abortion would be the sensible and compassionate solution, and it has been performed for thousands of years, it is not a modern concept.

Are you male or female?

[the truth]

OK. Thetruth. Please answer me this.

Do you think it is right that children are giving birth to and bringing up children without ANY way of providing for them except via the state, and where they are morally, emotionally and financially INCAPABLE of providing a stable and healthy upbringing for that child? If you do believe that, I would be interested in your justification. Please provide a reasoned argument other than the across the board abhorrence you are currently showing. In many cases abortion would be the sensible and compassionate solution, and it has been performed for thousands of years, it is not a modern concept.

Are you male or female?

do you think its right tens of millions of innocent babies are killed off every year worldwide between and millions are killed between 12 and 14 weeks

[Liam-]

do you think its right tens of millions of innocent babies are killed off every year worldwide between and millions are killed between 12 and 14 weeks

Are you ever going to post some form of proof to back up these claims you're fond of making?

[Anaesthesia]

do you think its right tens of millions of innocent babies are killed off every year worldwide between and millions are killed between 12 and 14 weeks

I'm sorry, but your reasoning does seem to be skewed.Cell formations are NOT babies at this gestation age.

Would you prefer that tens of millions of unwanted children past this foetus age are brought into this world unwanted, unloved, uncared for, put with the state to bring them up, never knowing a loving home, never having a mother and father that genuinely WANT them and can provide for them?

If so, WHY. Please tell me why it is better to grow up feeling unwanted with all the psychological problems that brings (I remind you, I am adopted and I had a wonderful childhood, I was lucky but I STILL have those feelings) than for a non-sentient cluster of cells never to be born.

How shall we look after the ones that are born? Can we do that as a society? Should we all be responsible for a moment of madness between two drunk teenagers whose actions accidentally came to this? Because we are, right now.

If you believe in the right of all foetuses to be born, I am interested to hear your ideas on how these children can be provided for. And until you can talk to me about that, you are just spewing idiocy.

[Marsh.]

do you think its right tens of millions of innocent babies are killed off every year worldwide between and millions are killed between 12 and 14 weeks

Source?

[lily.]

Their body, their choice. I don't think men should get much of a choice in the matter, we don't carry the child or the risks involved in doing so. Whether a woman wants to go through with a pregnancy or not is their choice and their choice alone.

This.

[Marsh.]

I really can't agree with that. I think the father should have a big say. They're both responsible for creating that child.

Obviously when it comes to the baby maybe compromising the mother's health it's a different ballgame but I feel it's disgusting that a father can have no input or say so when it comes to them having an unexpected pregnancy or whatever.

[lily.]

They're both responsible for creating the child, but the mother is solely responsible for carrying it for 9 months.

Giving the father rights could possibly lead to a father who wants the baby and a mother who doesn't, which then leads to a woman being forced to carry a child for 9 months against her will. Do you think that is a good situation? How would you feel if you were in that situation?

I'm 100% pro-choice. I don't care what reasons people give for aborting a baby as long as it's in the first trimester. I don't see it as any different from using a contraceptive pill or a morning after pill. Both of those technically destroy fertilised eggs.

[Marsh.]

Yes she has to carry it but she's mature enough to be having sex and making that risk. Sex = babies. That's a responsibility too.

I'm not suggesting anyone's forced against their will. But women doing whatever they please whilst the father has no input or regard for his feelings is callous.

[lily.]

I think that from a moral standpoint, it is right to consider the father's feelings, but from a legal standpoint, it could cause more problems.

If I were in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy and was considering terminating, I would discuss it with my partner and explain how I felt. But, not everyone has that kind of relationship. Some people have more of a physical connection and not so much of the emotional.. and of course, some people are in the 'one night stand' category... I doubt anyone would want to be called up by the randomer they shagged last month and and asked if they wanted to discuss the options.

Every situation is different, but there's one thing I do feel strongly about.... we can all have our opinions on what we believe to be right or wrong, but none of us ought to force our own beliefs on the people who are in the situation of contemplating an abortion. They should have the right to make their decision privately and with support from the medical professionals.

[Marsh.]

Well, clearly I'm not discussing one night stands. That's quite obvious. When one person is left with a pregnancy or a child then they are the sole decision maker.

Nobody's mentioning forcing anyone's beliefs on another. It's a thread for opinions.

[lily.]

I agree. I think that has more to do with the people in the relationships. I discuss every major decision with my other half. And, since we have two children together, we discuss things regarding how we raise them.

If people can't even discuss pregnancy options with each other, how the hell are they going to raise a child... lol

[Marsh.]

If people can't even discuss pregnancy options with each other, how the hell are they going to raise a child... lol

Well exactly. :laugh:

[Marsh.]

On the subject of the abortion limit, I still feel it's far too high.

[Angelika]

Abortion is right for some and wrong for others.

Every woman has the right to chose, if she feels for some reason it's wrong to have an abortion then for her, it's clearly wrong. Another woman may have different reasons for feeling comfortable with abortion - for her, the decision to have an abortion is right.

I believe abortion is right for some and not right for others. Each woman has to make the decision for herself. I do however agree that abortion should not be considered to be a contraception technique.

[the truth]

24 weeks is murder

[lily.]

On the subject of the abortion limit, I still feel it's far too high.

Is it still at 24 weeks? If so, I agree that it needs pulled back a bit.

The blood test for down's syndrome was given to me around 12-15 weeks as far as I recall.

If the result comes back high, an amniocentesis is offered, so if someone wants to terminate based on that result, they should be able to terminate before 18 weeks.

Unless the test dates have changed, that covers all bases, and I think 18 weeks is a far more realistic limit for allowing abortion (not including extenuating circumstances like the mother's life being in danger at later stages).

[Vicky.]

On the subject of the abortion limit, I still feel it's far too high.

This we can definitely agree on. I remember talking about this in another thread once. I feel the limit should be around 10 weeks for just a chosen abortion (possibly less, most people know they are pregnant by 6 weeks) except in the case of medical reasons. Downs test gets given around the 12-14 week mark along with test for other serious abnormalities.

IIRC one of the points against lowering the limit was that some people do not even know they are pregnant til late on, but those people are really few and far between. Not sure what could be done about that as no doubt some would play on that as a reason to get an abortion later if they changed their mind about keeping it...

[Cal.]

Exceptional circumstances (find out the baby had a medical condition from an Antenatal screening/rape baby) otherwise it should be taken to adoption, there is many same sex couples and couples who can't have children looking for children, people shouldn't abort babies if they don't want them and rob other people the chance of becoming a parent. And then there's the argument of the people that have been aborted (someone who could have cured cancer, the new president/prime minister, next pop star).

[Vicky.]

Exceptional circumstances (find out the baby had a medical condition from an Antenatal screening/rape baby) otherwise it should be taken to adoption, there is many same sex couples and couples who can't have children looking for children, people shouldn't abort babies if they don't want them and rob other people the chance of becoming a parent. And then there's the argument of the people that have been aborted (someone who could have cured cancer, the new president/prime minister, next pop star).

The other end of this is that there are MANY unwanted children already available for adoption, but these people who are supposedly so desperate dont want them as they want babies.

This may come across insensitive but meh. If you were that desperate for a child and couldn't have one naturally, I dont think you should be picky about the age of said child.

[Firewire]

Exceptional circumstances (find out the baby had a medical condition from an Antenatal screening/rape baby) otherwise it should be taken to adoption, there is many same sex couples and couples who can't have children looking for children, people shouldn't abort babies if they don't want them and rob other people the chance of becoming a parent. And then there's the argument of the people that have been aborted (someone who could have cured cancer, the new president/prime minister, next pop star).

A woman shouldn't be forced to carry it though if she doesn't want it. It's a lot for someone to carry a child for 9 months then give it away.

[Z]

I think the issue of abortion is so complex and there are so many different issues that come under the umbrella of the concept that it's impossible for there to ever be a "correct" course of action... but I think it's an issue that should be decided upon by women and women only. Their bodies, their rights. I think it's wrong that a woman can choose to keep a baby when the man doesn't want it because he's then held accountable for that child even if he wants nothing to do with it; but that's one of the very few instances where it affects men. It's up to women everywhere.

[Kizzy]

It is but the effects of abortion shouldn't be forgotten, they are just as damaging.

[Z]

It is but the effects of abortion shouldn't be forgotten, they are just as damaging.

Yes. I know a girl who's had two abortions - the first time, she was devastated at what she had done and traumatised by the physical pain of it and everyone really felt for her. Then she got pregnant again and went through it a second time and no one felt sorry for her. I sort of feel like if you're just going to be irresponsible, you shouldn't be allowed to have this get out of jail free card of having an abortion whenever you accidentally get knocked up, but there's no way you could ever put some kind of "limit" on how many abortions a person can have because there are so many reasons why a woman might get one... unwanted pregnancy from casual sex, unwanted pregnancy from being raped, something wrong with the foetus... I don't know. It's just too difficult to say firmly either way what's right or wrong.

In the case of the girl I know, if she's irresponsible enough to have gotten pregnant and not wanted it twice (and even then, saying "irresponsible" is quite a loaded term and sounds like only the female is to blame - it takes two to tango... or more than two if you're into that kind of thing) then would she be fit to be a mother? Probably not... but people rise to the occasion. As a man, I don't feel it's my place to have strong views on abortion, it's an experience I will never physically go through and therefore I don't think it's really my business.

[the truth]

The other end of this is that there are MANY unwanted children already available for adoption, but these people who are supposedly so desperate dont want them as they want babies.

This may come across insensitive but meh. If you were that desperate for a child and couldn't have one naturally, I dont think you should be picky about the age of said child.

id rather be an unwanted child looking to be adopted , than dead in a bin. at least youre alive and have a chance rather than being silently murdered in a womb

[the truth]

I think the issue of abortion is so complex and there are so many different issues that come under the umbrella of the concept that it's impossible for there to ever be a "correct" course of action... but I think it's an issue that should be decided upon by women and women only. Their bodies, their rights. I think it's wrong that a woman can choose to keep a baby when the man doesn't want it because he's then held accountable for that child even if he wants nothing to do with it; but that's one of the very few instances where it affects men. It's up to women everywhere.

whata load of sexist nonsense. men are doctors , scientists, biologists and parents too.........the fact is babies killed at 24 weeks is nothing short of murder. ps half these babies and women too.

[Z]

whata load of sexist nonsense. men are doctors , scientists, biologists and parents too.........the fact is babies killed at 24 weeks is nothing short of murder. ps half these babies and women too.

One thing men are not, are mothers who have to carry a pregnancy to term. I'm passing no comment or judgment on the timeline of abortion, I'm merely speaking about women having the right to decide on whether or not the actual concept is something that should be allowed or not.

[Z]

id rather be an unwanted child looking to be adopted , than dead in a bin. at least youre alive and have a chance rather than being silently murdered in a womb

If you're dead in a bin, you're dead in a bin. Can't really do anything about being alive when you're dead, whether you're a terminated foetus or an elderly person. This is such overly romanticised bollocks, I don't buy it whatsoever.

[Vicky.]

I do agree men should get a say, however I do not see how this would be feasible in reality. The man could say he wanted the child, the woman be forced to carry it, the woman dies during childbirth...what then? What if the guy decided late on that infact he didnt want the child?

I don't think its right for men to not get a say but I also don't think it is right to force someone to go through something that could effectively kill them or cause serious medical problems..

[Z]

It's an emotional issue as much as it is a physical one. The way I see it, the man has signed over his rights to the woman the moment she falls pregnant (to be crude, he did sort of... give it away, directly to the woman...) and the decision is ultimately hers about whether or not she aborts a pregnancy. I'd hope that in most cases, it would be a mutual decision where applicable, but it should always be the woman's choice whether she goes through with it or not, even if it goes against the man's wishes, because she's the one who has to go through with it.

[the truth]

One thing men are not, are mothers who have to carry a pregnancy to term. I'm passing no comment or judgment on the timeline of abortion, I'm merely speaking about women having the right to decide on whether or not the actual concept is something that should be allowed or not.

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

[the truth]

It's an emotional issue as much as it is a physical one. The way I see it, the man has signed over his rights to the woman the moment she falls pregnant (to be crude, he did sort of... give it away, directly to the woman...) and the decision is ultimately hers about whether or not she aborts a pregnancy. I'd hope that in most cases, it would be a mutual decision where applicable, but it should always be the woman's choice whether she goes through with it or not, even if it goes against the man's wishes, because she's the one who has to go through with it.

has it ever occured to you sometimes the woman wants the baby and doesnt want to abort but the man and family members is presuring the woman to abort? shouldnt the woman and the parents in general get far more options and time given to them than pressure to abort?

[Z]

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

Okay, and what if a woman's been raped and falls pregnant? Under your warped logic does she have to keep that baby and raise it and be reminded of what happened to her every single day for the rest of her life?

has it ever occured to you sometimes the woman wants the baby and doesnt want to abort but the man and family members is presuring the woman to abort? shouldnt the woman and the parents in general get far more options and time given to them than pressure to abort?

Yes, it was one of the things I thought of when I made my posts in this thread. That's why I believe it should only be up to the woman to make the decision whether she wants to keep the baby or not, it should always be a woman's decision. I feel like you're disagreeing with a point I haven't made here.

[Vicky.]

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

Who is to say they didn't? Condoms have something like a 2% fail rate...so 2 in every 100 people who use them could still get pregnant. Even if the woman is on the pill aswell theres a chance (albeit a small one) of falling pregnant still

I'm not pretending that everyone who has an abortion has took precautions against getting pregnant though..

The only certain way of not getting pregnant is to never have sex. And thats a bit unrealistic, to say from now on, only people who want a baby should ever have sex :S

[the truth]

Who is to say they didn't? Condoms have something like a 2% fail rate...so 2 in every 100 people who use them could still get pregnant. Even if the woman is on the pill aswell theres a chance (albeit a small one) of falling pregnant still

I'm not pretending that everyone who has an abortion has took precautions against getting pregnant though..

The only certain way of not getting pregnant is to never have sex. And thats a bit unrealistic, to say from now on, only people who want a baby should ever have sex :S

youre exaggerrating my point in a frankly embarrassing fashion. there is such a thing as the pill and umpteen other ways to prevent preganncies happening in the first place, as you well know

[Niamh.]

youre exaggerrating my point in a frankly embarrassing fashion. there is such a thing as the pill and umpteen other ways to prevent preganncies happening in the first place, as you well know

She did actually address that in her post, a point you chose to ignore :think:

[the truth]

She did actually address that in her post, a point you chose to ignore :think:

not properly, a point you choose to ignore

[Liam-]

not properly, a point you choose to ignore

But she did though, she mentioned the statistics of condoms failing, the fact that there's a very small chance, but still a chance that the pill could fail, why are you choosing to ignore parts of people's post and emphasize the parts that you feel you could blindly argue with?

[the truth]

But she did though, she mentioned the statistics of condoms failing, the fact that there's a very small chance, but still a chance that the pill could fail, why are you choosing to ignore parts of people's post and emphasize the parts that you feel you could blindly argue with?

youre the one choosing to ignore, a condom is 1 of many preventions as you know and choose to ignore:nono:

[Liam-]

youre the one choosing to ignore, a condom is 1 of many preventions as you know and choose to ignore:nono:

I genuinely have no idea what you're arguing for, you don't make sense and obviously don't read peoples posts properly before retaliating with your pointless drivel.

[Niamh.]

youre the one choosing to ignore, a condom is 1 of many preventions as you know and choose to ignore:nono:

She mentions the Pill aswell which is also not 100% effective :shrug:

[AnnieK]

No contraception is 100% effective or guaranteed...medications and illness effect the pill, implants and other hormone driven devices can become ineffective, condoms split and fail, sterilisations and vasectomies have been known to fail......you could take every precaution and STILL fall pregnant....it happens and probably more often than you think. I was told I couldn't have children....went through failed fertility treatments and started the adoption process but then fell pregnant naturally. Sometimes thingshappen which are well out of reasonable control

[Vicky.]

youre exaggerrating my point in a frankly embarrassing fashion. there is such a thing as the pill and umpteen other ways to prevent preganncies happening in the first place, as you well know

The amount of people who fall pregnant whilst on 2 or more forms of contraception is probably higher than those who just chose to have an abortion at 24 weeks (ignoring medical complications). So me mentioning this is no more ridiculous than you keep bleating on about 24 weeks.

Anyway, I already mentioned 2 forms of contraception. Yes there are more but its slightly OTT to be expecting people to be using EVERY form of contraception. And tbh I dont think doctors would even let you be on the pill, implant, injection etc at the same time

[the truth]

I genuinely have no idea what you're arguing for, you don't make sense and obviously don't read peoples posts properly before retaliating with your pointless drivel.

pointless drivel ? defending the rights of millions of babies, fighting for better service for mothers and fathers considering abortion, shame on you:nono:

[the truth]

The amount of people who fall pregnant whilst on 2 or more forms of contraception is probably higher than those who just chose to have an abortion at 24 weeks (ignoring medical complications). So me mentioning this is no more ridiculous than you keep bleating on about 24 weeks.

bleating on about 24 weeks? were talking about millions of babies worldwide murdered up to 24 weeks and you dare to trivialise it, how profoundly offensive how callous how cold hearted how evil.........24 week babies being killed is murder....

[Vicky.]

bleating on about 24 weeks? were talking about millions of babies worldwide murdered up to 24 weeks and you dare to trivialise it, how profoundly offensive how callous how cold hearted how evil.........24 week babies being killed is murder....
I imagine its something like 0.001% of abortions or something that are just chosen (eg. not for medical reasons) that are carried out at 24 weeks, unless you have some actual statistics to say otherwise. I agree that its totally wrong to do it that late, I have never said otherwise...infact I mentioned earlier in the thread lowering the limit to around 10 weeks except for medical reasons?

Yes bleating on, I completely get the pro-life arguments, believe me. However you just keep repeating 'murdered babies' and '24 weeks' over and over..which kinda nulls any real point you have to make :shrug:

[mizzy25]

Its not right or wrong, it all depends on the woman the circumstances etc.

[the truth]

I imagine its something like 0.001% of abortions or something that are just chosen (eg. not for medical reasons) that are carried out at 24 weeks, unless you have some actual statistics to say otherwise. I agree that its totally wrong to do it that late, I have never said otherwise...infact I mentioned earlier in the thread lowering the limit to around 10 weeks except for medical reasons?

Yes bleating on, I completely get the pro-life arguments, believe me. However you just keep repeating 'murdered babies' and '24 weeks' over and over..which kinda nulls any real point you have to make :shrug:

if youre that easily put off the pro life agenda just because of a few trivial semantics it shows how shallow your opinion on this massive issue is.

[Vicky.]

if youre that easily put off the pro life agenda just because of a few trivial semantics it shows how shallow your opinion on this massive issue is.

Again, I never even said that...

[Vicky.]

Most abortions (around 90%) are carried out before a pregnancy reaches 13 weeks, and virtually all abortions (around 98%) are performed before 20 weeks.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/When-should-it-be-done.aspx

I would bet my house on the 2% that are done after the 20 week mark being because of medical reasons... also that the massive majority of the 10% done after 13 weeks are for medical reasons too..given that thats around when you get the anomaly tests done..

[the truth]

Again, I never even said that...

you more than inferred it. very fickle, this is pro life is massive massive issue you should treat it more seriously and not get dissuaded by trivialities

[Vicky.]

you more than inferred it. very fickle, this is pro life is massive massive issue you should treat it more seriously and not get dissuaded by trivialities

No. What I said is I understand the pro-life stance completely. Not to say I agree with it completely, as I lean more towards pro-choice..however I think the limit should be drastically lowered (mind I don't think it would make much difference as most are carried out before 13 weeks anyway) and I disagree with multiple abortions..though I'm not quite sure how we could get around that as again its a case of forcing people to go through pregnancies they do not want. I'm not totally against the idea of sterilization for people who view abortion as a contraceptive and have loads of them actually, but thats another issue entirely.

Dissuaded by trivialities..nothing I read on this forum would EVER change my view, especially on a massive issue like this. My point was more along the line of you don't come across as pro-life at all, more pro-repetitive pretty much copy and pasted drivel. Others can debate about the subject and put their views across well, you just repeat the same thing over and over, and argue against points that noone even made.

So no...not fickle at all.

[the truth]

No. What I said is I understand the pro-life stance completely. Not to say I agree with it completely, as I lean more towards pro-choice..however I think the limit should be drastically lowered (mind I don't think it would make much difference as most are carried out before 13 weeks anyway) and I disagree with multiple abortions..though I'm not quite sure how we could get around that as again its a case of forcing people to go through pregnancies they do not want. I'm not totally against the idea of sterilization for people who view abortion as a contraceptive and have loads of them actually, but thats another issue entirely.

Dissuaded by trivialities..nothing I read on this forum would EVER change my view, especially on a massive issue like this. My point was more along the line of you don't come across as pro-life at all, more pro-repetitive pretty much copy and pasted drivel. Others can debate about the subject and put their views across well, you just repeat the same thing over and over, and argue against points that noone even made.

So no...not fickle at all.

trivial petty attack, a lot of it repetitive too. ill rise above your pettiness and agree that things need to change. 24 week abortions is horrific. the support given to parents is sub standard a point ive made endlessly yet you've deliberately ignored yet again. its this sub standard support in the nhs that's a huge part of the reason we see so many rushed abortions on this unprecedented scale.

[Vicky.]

trivial petty attack, a lot of it repetitive too. ill rise above your pettiness and agree that things need to change. 24 week abortions is horrific. the support given to parents is sub standard a point ive made endlessly yet you've deliberately ignored yet again. its this sub standard support in the nhs that's a huge part of the reason we see so many rushed abortions on this unprecedented scale.

Really? Maybe try reading back as I agreed with you about that too :crazy:

[Northern Monkey]

I would only allow it for genuine medical reasons or rape victims.In the case of medical reasons the father also needs to be consulted,You can't just go killing a mans child without his consent.Abortion should NOT be used as contraception,That is disgusting.Don't get pregnant if you can't take responsibilty for your child.

[Niamh.]

I would only allow it for genuine medical reasons or rape victims.In the case of medical reasons the father also needs to be consulted,You can't just go killing a mans child without his consent.Abortion should NOT be used as contraception,That is disgusting.Don't get pregnant if you can't take responsibilty for your child.

Really? Eventhough it's the mother who's in medical danger not the father

[Northern Monkey]

Really? Eventhough it's the mother who's in medical danger not the father

Sorry,i meant if a disability is detected at a scan.Obviously if the woman is in any danger then she should have the full authority to choose.

[Niamh.]

Sorry,i meant if a disability is detected at a scan.Obviously if the woman is in any danger then she should have the full authority to choose.

ah ok :laugh:

[Northern Monkey]

ah ok :laugh:

:blush:
I would have probably had a more pro choice view a few years back but since becoming a dad i feel differently.Kids are'nt toys,They are people,Their life should be respected imo.

[Niamh.]

:blush:
I would have probably had a more pro choice view a few years back but since becoming a dad i feel differently.Kids are'nt toys,They are people,Their life should be respected imo.

I agree :love:

[Kizzy]

Yes. I know a girl who's had two abortions - the first time, she was devastated at what she had done and traumatised by the physical pain of it and everyone really felt for her. Then she got pregnant again and went through it a second time and no one felt sorry for her. I sort of feel like if you're just going to be irresponsible, you shouldn't be allowed to have this get out of jail free card of having an abortion whenever you accidentally get knocked up, but there's no way you could ever put some kind of "limit" on how many abortions a person can have because there are so many reasons why a woman might get one... unwanted pregnancy from casual sex, unwanted pregnancy from being raped, something wrong with the foetus... I don't know. It's just too difficult to say firmly either way what's right or wrong.

In the case of the girl I know, if she's irresponsible enough to have gotten pregnant and not wanted it twice (and even then, saying "irresponsible" is quite a loaded term and sounds like only the female is to blame - it takes two to tango... or more than two if you're into that kind of thing) then would she be fit to be a mother? Probably not... but people rise to the occasion. As a man, I don't feel it's my place to have strong views on abortion, it's an experience I will never physically go through and therefore I don't think it's really my business.

Be careful your straying into Richard Dawkins territory...
I didn't say or infer anyone was irresponsible sorry if it sounded like I did, I appreciate there are many contributory factors to the decision to terminate a pregnancy. I only wanted to highlight that it's something that changes you forever I've known 3 women who have aborted a pregnancy and none are the same for it.
You may not physically experience it, I haven't yet we can still have an opinion and be empathic can't we?

[AnnieK]

When I was 18 two of my closest friends got pregnant and spoke to my mum about it. For different reasons they both couldn't speak to their own mums. One of them kept the baby, the other didn't. My mum was quite affected by talking to my friend who decided to terminate and said she definitely made the harder decision.

[the truth]

When I was 18 two of my closest friends got pregnant and spoke to my mum about it. For different reasons they both couldn't speak to their own mums. One of them kept the baby, the other didn't. My mum was quite affected by talking to my friend who decided to terminate and said she definitely made the harder decision.

what does harder mean here?

[JoellHamby]

definitely very wrong one. you have to think first otherwise take how it goes

[lostalex]

I said in most cases just because I don't think abortion is okay for instance just because the parents want a son and they find out it's a girl, or if in the future there was a test to see if the child would be gay, obviously that's not right. but in MOST cases i think abortion should be totally okay. i don't believe a person is a person unless they can be an individual, and fetuses are not individuals, they are parasites.

In the end though, it is a woman's body, and everyone should have individual rights over their own body.

[Z]

Be careful your straying into Richard Dawkins territory...
I didn't say or infer anyone was irresponsible sorry if it sounded like I did, I appreciate there are many contributory factors to the decision to terminate a pregnancy. I only wanted to highlight that it's something that changes you forever I've known 3 women who have aborted a pregnancy and none are the same for it.
You may not physically experience it, I haven't yet we can still have an opinion and be empathic can't we?

It's a fact though isn't it, some women will choose to terminate a pregnancy if they're informed that there are health concerns with the foetus or with the woman herself, I don't think I'm straying into Richard Dawkins territory, it's just a simple fact. No I don't think you were inferring that at all, I was just rambling really :laugh: and yeah of course we can be empathetic but I don't feel that as a man, I have any real right to tell you as a woman what you can and can't do with your body, abortion links into all sorts of other issues in that sense. I can have an opinion on it, of course, but I feel that it's an issue for women to decide upon and men to respect the outcome.