Scotland vote NO to independence!

[andybigbro]

Just been announced :)

[bots]

Just been announced :)

:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

[lostalex]

barely.

[Josy]

Scotland has voted against becoming an independent country by a projected 55% to 45%.

Great result.

[Jake.]

There's going to be trouble... :laugh:

[Smithy]

:clap2: :clap2:

[Natalie.]

Good :)

[Ross.]

Here for all the drama

[Ninastar]

thank god!

[reece(:]

perched for the dramz

[Josy]

Whatever you feel about the result, the things everyone should be most proud of is the amazing turnout and that this referendum was a victory for democracy that allowed people to have their say on such an important issue, with mostly passionate debate, not bombs and weapons, there arent many countries in the world where this would have happened.

[Crimson Dynamo]

To get 45% when every national newspaper save one and one large and powerful goverment is against you is pretty amazing

[GypsyGoth]

Fear is a very powerful motivator and with so many people afraid it's best it didn't happen. Maybe one day.

[Josy]

Totals after the full 32 counts

No 2,001,926
Yes 1,617,989

[zakman440]

:cheer2:

[GypsyGoth]

One thing that's good about the result, there isn't going to be months of upheaval and uncertainty, like a messy divorce.

[Kyle]

One thing that's good about the result, there isn't going to be months of upheaval and uncertainty, like a messy divorce.

It was all simple in the end. Promise her a nice shiny new boob job in exchange for not leaving, but just so long as we don't tell the kids :fc:

[Stu]

To get 45% when every national newspaper save one and one large and powerful goverment is against you is pretty amazing
Fear wins over hope.

"Yay we still have all our chess pieces!" as anyone not inside the U.K. media bubble let's out a collective groan.

[Calderyon]

Not sure how to feel about the result, tbh. If it was Finland in the same situation trying get independence from Russia or Sweden with the help of a vote like this, i would have voted "YES", without even considering the consequences. Thankfully there was a revolution and we got a chance to seize up the opportunity and got it from Russia/Soviet Union.

But i don´t think Scotland would have coped themselves long and would probably had to eventually ask help from EU and the rest of the World. It´s still kind sad, in a way for people that have wanted independence from Britain for so long to get their hopes crushed completely.

I do predict this was a one time vote and there will never be a referendum like this. Only way for Scotland to get independence now would be if Monarchy would end in Britain.

Or another way too, but nobody wants that...

[Kizzy]

I hope Cameron doesn't back down on his promise of more autonomy for Scotland then.

[Niamh.]

I saw this on FB this morning :hehe:

http://i.imgur.com/8p0tpB4.jpg

[Angelika]

Totals after the full 32 counts

No 2,001,926
Yes 1,617,989

A very decisive result and I hope the result will be embraced by everyone.

Heard on BBC News this morning:
"The most sensible comment of the Referendum Campaign according to Gavin Hewitt, TV reporter was by a man living in Shetland who when he asked him "Well whose oil is it? Is it Britains oil, is it Shetlands oil, is it Scotlands oil? He replied "No, its the oil companies oil!"

[joeysteele]

I am really pleased that this was in the end a more decisive result.

A margin of double figures is decisive hopefully this puts this issue away for some considerable time.

The Conservative,Labour and to a degree the Lib Dems must come up with an agreed list of further powers to be transferred to the Scots and they must also take into account input from the SNP as to those too.

This keeps the UK parliament going and keeps the UK together too,that has to be realised and no nonsense of creating a 2 tier system of MPs elected to the UK parliament or any watering down of the basics of what was promised during this campaign to the Scots either.

I also hope David Cameron has seen how dangerous it can be to hold referendums on divided issues,this could have gone either way and had it done so, I feel England would have likely paid the bigger price for the loss of Scotland.

I commend both Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown for this result, Alex Slamond brought the result far closer than it seemed likely to be able to achieve,even just a few months ago.
Gordon Brown I commend for his brilliant speech on Wednesday morning which I would credit him for as to stemming any more votes going to 'yes' and even pulling some back from 'yes' to 'no' too.

Scotland has demonstrated how good democracy can be,the turnout was incredible and showed that you can energise people with the right message and by talking 'to' them rather than 'at' them bring about a determination and interest as to politics that may have seemed near impossible before.
Also I have heard a great deal of sense,watching the debates from those who were 16 and 17 years old allowed to vote.

In my view, a really great result and hopefully it does come about that there will be winners all round because of what the Scottish Nation has said to the rest of the UK yesterday.

A lot more respect is owed to Scotland now and much less of just looking inward and trying to put things off to other days from those in power in the UK.

[MTVN]

A big round of applause for old Gordon returning from the grave to save the No campaign and crush Salmond's hopes and dreams

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/04/article-2081981-09728A39000005DC-274_233x423.jpg

[Kizzy]

:joker: :joker: Whoever thought facebook would produce such poignant satire?

[Kizzy]

A big round of applause for old Gordon returning from the grave to save the No campaign and crush Salmond's hopes and dreams

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/04/article-2081981-09728A39000005DC-274_233x423.jpg


Why don't we like him again.... I can't remember?

[Ramsay]

Fix, i'm calling ofcom

[Niamh.]

Fix, i'm calling ofcom

:laugh:

[AnnieK]

I hope Cameron doesn't back down on his promise of more autonomy for Scotland then.

Completely agree...

[Calderyon]

If he has promised that to Scotland, i hope he keeps it for their sake, but somehow i doubt it and everything will go on they way it was before. He is a politician after all.

And you can´t trust politicians really... :spin:

[Kizzy]

Or at all... It should be illegal to not implement policies when elected, it's always been a bugbear of mine that.

[Calderyon]

^ That really should happen, cause the one thing that politicians do best is betraying the most or all of the promises they have made to their voters.

[Niamh.]

Or at all... It should be illegal to not implement policies when elected, it's always been a bugbear of mine that.

It should actually. If people vote for you because of what you say you're going to do, it should be classed as false advertising or something if they don't follow through once they get into power.

[Josy]

A big round of applause for old Gordon returning from the grave to save the No campaign and crush Salmond's hopes and dreams

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/04/article-2081981-09728A39000005DC-274_233x423.jpg

Gordon done great for the No campaign tbf, his last speech was one of if not the most passionate speech of the entire debate IMO.

[cheeky_monkey]

Yay :cheer2:

[Ramsay]

:laugh:

I have no doubt Helen is somehow involved

[Kyle]

Reight then Niamh, now that Scotland's done and dusted you fancy a vote to come back into the loving embrace of your Anglo Saxon cousins? :hug:

[Niamh.]

Reight then Niamh, now that Scotland's done and dusted you fancy a vote to come back into the loving embrace of your Anglo Saxon cousins? :hug:
http://i59.tinypic.com/sf83h4.gif

[Scarlett.]

Whatever you feel about the result, the things everyone should be most proud of is the amazing turnout and that this referendum was a victory for democracy that allowed people to have their say on such an important issue, with mostly passionate debate, not bombs and weapons, there arent many countries in the world where this would have happened.

Definately, it's amazing that so many people turned out to vote.

[MTVN]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77684000/jpg/_77684785_312a4ef6-72e8-44b1-a6e9-01ee941e865d.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77684000/jpg/_77684791_be58a94c-fccc-45ad-b767-9eb5797ae5ed.jpg

[joeysteele]

Gordon done great for the No campaign tbf, his last speech was one of if not the most passionate speech of the entire debate IMO.

It was really impressive, for me that again turned the tide I would say for the result that came about.

Without his intervention,I am not that sure that the vote would have gone for 'no'.

He deserves great credit for his efforts and he looked the solid Statesman too.

[Scarlett.]

I've always thought Gordon got the short end of the stick as Prime Minister, Tony Blair knew the recession was incoming, so he pressed the eject button, so he could go a fiddle around in Middle Eastern politics. Gordon had to deal with all the crap Tony left ticking down. I remember his speech when he lost the election in 2010, he looked relieved that he could finally go back to doing normal politics.

[Brother Leon]

Now for the twist of the century, England should go independant and leave everyone ****ed :laugh:

[Z]

I cannot STAND this "fear won over hope" ****e I've been reading everywhere. I'm just going to share what I posted on Facebook this morning in this thread.

spent all of yesterday slagging off everyone who felt the need to get on a podium and give their opinion prior to the referendum result as if they had anything new or especially insightful to say and I'm now reading plenty more post-referendum statuses today. The thing that strikes me is there is a lot of "I'm stunned people would choose x (hypothetical bad thing) over y (hypothetical good thing)" as if these were choices we were voting for yesterday. The question was a simple yes or no, not a list of x versus y scenarios where you picked the one that matches your personality best and you can share the results of the quiz on Facebook. Nobody has died for their human rights in this SNP-driven bid for freedom. Nobody has had their views silenced, their families arrested, their homes destroyed. This campaign was not grassroots, it was not the will of the people being spearheaded by a popular leader - it was a group of politicians trying to convince the people of Scotland that they wanted something they'd no real reason to consider previously, like door to door salesmen trying to sell vacuum cleaners to housewives. They gave it a fair crack and they exposed many of the flaws that are present in the United Kingdom; but they didn't show us anything that we didn't already know. They didn't provide us with anything positive to cling onto, because they couldn't. They could only offer promises and criticisms. That's the problem with trying to start a revolution in a place where the quality of life is far better than everywhere else in the world; there's nowhere else in the world for us to aspire to become like to spur us into wanting change. We are at the top of the pile, all we can really want is small changes here and there, there is no place for a gigantic, monumental shift in power or lifestyle if it doesn't reflect the people. We are not Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania in 1991. We are not Palestine or Syria or Iraq or Ukraine in 2014. This is not my opinion, these are merely factual observations that explain why the yes campaign didn't triumph in the end - but they gave it their best shot and as with all things political; there will be changed that we like and dislike and it doesn't really matter which union we belong to, that will always happen. Now I'm annoyed that I've joined in. Bye.

I voted yes, by the way.

[Kyle]

Good post Z, hope you don't get unnecessary stick for that.

[MTVN]

Yeah I don't think it's accurate or fair to equate the No vote with one for 'fear' and make out the Scots are a persecuted country who when it came to it were too scared to anger their Westminster overlords. People simply made a reasonable and informed decision that the relationship with the Union was good enough that it was worth preserving, not worth sacrificing for the minefield of independence which could have sent the country hurtling into a pit of no return.

The Union has been a massive success story since its formation and none of us in any of its countries would have had the same benefits we have today if it had never existed, and all the countries have played a massive part in building it. It's very rare for a country to be offered independence and decline it, I don't know if it's ever happened apart from Quebec who also narrowly rejected independence from Canada. I don't think the majority who voted No were misled or motivated by fear, it's a bit patronising and insulting to say they were.

[smudgie]

Whatever you feel about the result, the things everyone should be most proud of is the amazing turnout and that this referendum was a victory for democracy that allowed people to have their say on such an important issue, with mostly passionate debate, not bombs and weapons, there arent many countries in the world where this would have happened.

Totally agree Josy.
It now opens the doors for all possibilities as well.
England having its own vote on English matters would be a great step forward.
Scotland, followed by Wales and Northern Ireland will have more power to run their own countries as well, all good.

[Braden]

Feel sorry for everybody who was so passionate about voting yes, but selfishly I'm happy Scotland hasn't gone independent.

The whole thing is one for the record books though.

[Scarlett.]

Totally agree Josy.
It now opens the doors for all possibilities as well.
England having its own vote on English matters would be a great step forward.
Scotland, followed by Wales and Northern Ireland will have more power to run their own countries as well, all good.

I think England needs reigonal parliaments, the population is too big to only have the one.

[smudgie]

I think England needs reigonal parliaments, the population is too big to only have the one.

Something should be done, I agree, not sure about separate parliaments, the regional areas should get much more representation.
A lot of people up North thnk they are in a different country to London.
If we all got the same money per head spent on us would be a fantastic start.

[Z]

I'm of the opinion that managing a population of 5 million people makes more sense than 65 million people; but as part of that 65 million, we have a seat at the big table at the party with all the top dogs. Know where you're being fed and don't bite that hand.

[Marsh.]

When's the TiBB referendum to dethrone Josy?

[Gusto Brunt]

What the hell was it all about anyway? The whole thing was crazy.

That stupid-looking Alex Salmond should resign. Who the hell does he think he is? He's wasted a load of money on this mindless referendum.

Barmy.

[Firewire]

Have had to unfollow/remove them as friends for their nastiness towards the No result

[hijaxers]

Now for the twist of the century, England should go independant and leave everyone ****ed :laugh:

I agree i wish they had left

[hijaxers]

I cannot STAND this "fear won over hope" ****e I've been reading everywhere. I'm just going to share what I posted on Facebook this morning in this thread.



I voted yes, by the way.

Shame you didn't win - i would have liked you to

[andybigbro]

I'm so happy with the result! I didn't want to be ripped from the United Kingdom!

I hate the people calling us traitors and embarrassments. It's ridiculous.

The mentality of some people is a joke.

Better Together!!!!! :D :D ����

[Crimson Dynamo]

A big round of applause for old Gordon returning from the grave to save the No campaign and crush Salmond's hopes and dreams

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/04/article-2081981-09728A39000005DC-274_233x423.jpg

I sincerely doubt he had any effect, people made their minds up long before that slack-jawed dumpling did his speech to a bunch of labour freaks

[andybigbro]

Gordon speech was great! He was very passionate.

[jaxie]

Whatever you feel about the result, the things everyone should be most proud of is the amazing turnout and that this referendum was a victory for democracy that allowed people to have their say on such an important issue, with mostly passionate debate, not bombs and weapons, there arent many countries in the world where this would have happened.:clap1:

[Josy]

Getting a bit rowdy in Glasgow (George Square)

[Crimson Dynamo]

Getting a bit rowdy in Glasgow (George Square)

Rangers against Celtic

welcome to the weekend in Glesga

:pipe2:

[Josy]

Vid here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29287409

[Novo]

513028516146073601

513036843508842497

Take cover!!!!!!!!!!

[Pete.]

513043172726145024
513050884247666688

[Josy]

It's mostly just neds looking for an excuse to riot.

The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg said the ruckus in George Square is not a stand-off between Yes and No campaigners. "It is hoolies turning up who want a fight."

Catriona MacPhee, STV journalist, tweets: Eerie scene in Queen St Station just now. Quiet & tense, with George Sq exit blocked, lined by riot police, & roar of chanting from outside.

[Pete.]

They'll all be drunk tbh

[Brother Leon]

Silly City rioting. Don't see London doing that :idc:

[Kizzy]

Disaffected, rebellious...discontented..dissatisfied...antagoni stic...hostile...mutinous...uncompliant...unsubmis sive.

I don't blame them.

[Brother Leon]

513028516146073601


!!!!

Football>>>>Scotland future.

Pls confirm

[Josy]

Disaffected, rebellious...discontented..dissatisfied...antagoni stic...hostile...mutinous...uncompliant...unsubmis sive.

I don't blame them.

It wasnt yes supporters.

Its over now, the police closed Off the roads and sent them all on their way.

[andybigbro]

The rioting and behaviour is appalling.

Whatever way the vote went it was going to happen regardless.


Hopefully it blows over.

[Kizzy]

It wasnt yes supporters.

Its over now, the police closed Off the roads and sent them all on their way.

I didn't say it was, but you can't expect people to not be angry and acting antisocially is a way of expressing that they are rebelling against what they see as an oppressive establishment.
I don't think it will be over for a long time.

[Kizzy]

The rioting and behaviour is appalling.

Whatever way the vote went it was going to happen regardless.


Hopefully it blows over.

Why is it appalling?... what did you expect, that the passion and strength of national pride and expectation was going to be expelled with a shrug of the shoulders?...

[Josy]

Kizzy my point above was the majority that are rioting are happy with the result of the referendum...

[Josy]

Seems there is still trouble it's just moved to other areas

[Kizzy]

Kizzy my point above was the majority that are rioting are happy with the result of the referendum...

That seems an unlikely reaction to something you're happy about :/

[Josy]

That seems an unlikely reaction to something you're happy about :/

Yeah I know lol

[Josy]

Andy have you seen the videos from Buchanan street?

Its in fb but I don't know how to post the vids on here

[Locke.]

Seems like Rangers may need to be restored to Division 3 after their fans actions tonight

[andybigbro]

Why is it appalling?... what did you expect, that the passion and strength of national pride and expectation was going to be expelled with a shrug of the shoulders?...

Because people don't need to react in such a way.

When fights start and people are getting hurt it's not right. People can celebrate yes, but do it with dignity.

Both sides are just as bad as each other, not the majority of people but the ones getting reported. It's just giving the whole thing a bad outlook, which is a shame because it really was a great debate and the turnout of votes was amazing.

[andybigbro]

Andy have you seen the videos from Buchanan street?

Its in fb but I don't know how to post the vids on here

I've only saw a couple, and I saw a guy getting punched. It's ridiculous!

I try and not watch them, cause they just make me angry. :laugh:

:bored:

[Jords]

Scotland :clap2:

[Firewire]

I'm honestly embarrassed and ashamed that I share the same city as these scumbags

[andybigbro]

Most no voters and most yes voters do not act like this.

But they're getting tarred with the same brush.

It's Glasgow neds that need to get a grip.

[Kizzy]

Because people don't need to react in such a way.

When fights start and people are getting hurt it's not right. People can celebrate yes, but do it with dignity.

Both sides are just as bad as each other, not the majority of people but the ones getting reported. It's just giving the whole thing a bad outlook, which is a shame because it really was a great debate and the turnout of votes was amazing.

If that's all it is then I agree, like the London riots were for many just an excuse to break windows and nick stuff, the overarching message was lost.

[Brother Leon]

If that's all it is then I agree, like the London riots were for many just an excuse to break windows and nick stuff, the overarching message was lost.

The main principle behind the Tottenham riots makes much more sense than any possible Scottish one. It went down to democracy and the No vote won. They should get over it and their "National Pride" that you mentioned is a reason for it.

[Josy]

Pictures On fb of buildings on fire now

Why is the news not covering this?

[andybigbro]

Pictures On fb of buildings on fire now

Why is the news not covering this?

Omg no way!

This is getting really bad. :bored:

[Kizzy]

Pictures On fb of buildings on fire now

Why is the news not covering this?

Good old English media blackout Joz, you are still part of the UK remember so people only see what our government wants them to see :(

[Jessica.]

Lots of Irish people wanted Scotland to vote yes, for no reason other than England "losing out", I don't understand why people who don't live in the UK would even care. :joker:

[James]

Pictures On fb of buildings on fire now

Why is the news not covering this?

There's been people on social media putting up pictures of buildings on fire in the London riots and claiming it was Glasgow.

[Novo]

513064278241595393

513087391427747840

He was there all night

[Kizzy]

Few nazi salutes from the crowd singing 'god save the queen' :/

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/riots-in-glasgow-after-scottish-referendum-on-independence/story-fnh81p7g-1227064881509

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29288249

[Scarlett.]

Police have made three arrests after separating groups of rival Unionist and independence supporters in Glasgow.

Officers, some mounted on horses, lined up to divide a large number of people waving union jacks from a group of "Yes" supporters.

The trouble began when the Union supporters fired a flare and charged into George Square.

The square had hosted a pro-independence party ahead of Thursday's independence referendum.

BBC Scotland reporter Cameron Buttle, who was at the scene, said Friday evening's confrontation started quickly with flares being fired and a "co-ordinated" charge from the Unionist side, who were singing Rule Britannia.

Some of the pro-Union side were carrying banners featuring Loyalist imagery.

A spokeswoman for Police Scotland said there were about 100 people in each of the two groups, and although there had been some "minor disorder" it had been dealt with by officers.

She said investigations were under way, with officers conducting inquiries which could lead to further arrests.

There have been reports on social media of a "Yes" supporter being stabbed in George Square, but police said they had no record of any incident.

The square was closed to traffic with local diversions in place.

A number of people draped in union jacks later left the area and began spreading on to the nearby streets, with many marching down St Vincent Place as police followed.

Roads around the square were closed as police dealt with the incident.

A large group of Union supporters later gathered in George Square again, this time at the top of the square next to Queen Street Station.

They sang Rule Britannia and a flare was let off.

Police formed a human barrier to block off the route to Buchanan Street - where scuffles also broke out - and contain people in the square.

After 21:00 the crowd scattered but smaller groups remained along with the line of police officers.

Mounted officers also remained at the scene.

BBC News


Definately doesn't sound as big as some were making out.

[Kyle]

There's been people on social media putting up pictures of buildings on fire in the London riots and claiming it was Glasgow.

I'm afraid this is sometimes where we see the ugly side of social media. People trying to whoosh up a storm by saying things then somebody else adds something on top like they saw a couple of buildings getting burnt to the ground then before you know it someone is describing gangs of New York where hundreds of well dressed and groomed up and coming actors are running around knifing each other.

[user104658]

For anyone who doesn't know / understand Glasgow... what is happeing right now has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum other than the fact that it's being used as an excuse.

This is sectarianism kicking off, pure and simple. A fairly large group from the Orange Order in N.I came over before the referendum, joined up with their Orange buddies in Glasgow, and kicked off. Sectarianism will find ANY REASON to kick off. Usually it's Football. Rangers were booted to the 3rd division a couple of years ago and so haven't played / been in a football rivalry with Celtic for years and so the idiotic yobs that make up these two sectarian gangs haven't had the opportunity to vent their impotent rage on each other, it's been pent up for years and Thursday/Friday's events were just the excuse they needed to kick off.

That's it. Pure and simple - not about "Yes", not about "No", not for normal people. The Orange Order, being Unionists, aligned with the "No" side and so that's the banner they march under.

I can only imagine how it'll be painted, though. It'll either be played down by the "wonderful" BBC, or t'll be manipulated to paint the whole of Scotland in a bad light as "punishment" for holding a referendum at all. I can tell you for a fact that it IS being massively under-reported. I have friends (on both sides of the fence for Yes/No) in Glasgow and it's definitely been more than "handbags", although also not full scale riots. It is also almost all centered around the "No side" (Orangemen, not actual normal no voters, I hasten to add) despite the papers being keen to make it sound 50/50.

With that in mind I genuinely dread to think what would have happened if it HAD been a "Yes". If they use it as an excuse to be this violent and angry in "victory".

[user104658]

Oh and also, Rangers are playing today, against the tiny team in the town that I work in (and I'm working). ****ing fantastic.

[Kizzy]

It's being said it's the SDL who were instigating violence, in the vids you can see bald meatheads in black so I'm assuming they model themselves on the EDL :laugh:

[Josy]

There's been people on social media putting up pictures of buildings on fire in the London riots and claiming it was Glasgow.

That must be what I seen, photos of fires saying it was the herald building, I looked on the news sites though and couldn't see a thing.

If anyone seen the vids last night you can see it's mostly neds, drunk and looking for fights and quite a few turning it into religious arguments.

[Josy]

Was hoping the arguing etc would calm down now but there is some Orange Walks planned for Glasgow today so that may keep the tension going.

[andybigbro]

Was hoping the arguing etc would calm down now but there is some Orange Walks planned for Glasgow today so that may keep the tension going.

Ugh! They shouldn't be allowed to do that.


Hopefully tonight is nothing like last night. I had plans to go into town tonight with my girlfriend but I'm not risking it.

[user104658]

If anyone seen the vids last night you can see it's mostly neds, drunk and looking for fights and quite a few turning it into religious arguments.

Its absolutely tragic that the aftermath of the referendum has been hijacked by sectarian violence. Not unexpected but still tragic.

They're not religious arguments at all, that's the problem, it was (as you say) drunk, angry neds looking to fight and sectarianism always was. Anything they latch onto is just an excuse. The motivation is aggression for the sake of aggression. That's why it was inevitable, really... To have an excuse... they need an excuse to pick teams. Catholic vs Protestant, Celtic vs Rangers, Yes vs No, any excuse to divide and kick off... It makes me very sad that the world might look at this and think it's genuine political unrest, that it has anything to with the vote itself.

That said, the main reason that this endless, confused, and ill-focused anger (and drunkenness) exists to such an extent is because successive governments have had their boots firmly on the necks of certain sections of society for generations. There's no social mobility, no respect, no hope, for certain demographics and that manifests as directionless rage looking for any reason to come out. Somehow, somewhere, SOMETHING needs to change.


I was pro independence but the truth is that's because I was hoping for an escape from an elitist oligarchy that's choking the life out of all of us and laughing about it all the way to the bank. I don't dislike England or English people, or even London or Londoners, I just hate the wretched politics that come out of Westminster. I'm sort of starting to come around to the fact that maybe that's wrong headed. That the answer is not 5 million Scots running away from it, but a fairer and better society for EVERY ONE. I really hope that it can happen. I'm just not sure it can, and that's why I "wanted out". The constant flipping between barely distinguishable Labour and Tory governments is cancerous and slowly eroding all hope... And I just can't see any end to it. It's SO deeply embedded in our political system.

I've seen a lot of hope over the last few days. Large groups of newly politically aware people on social media who formed for the referendum who are saying, OK we're still part of the UK, but what we CAN do is stick together, make sure all politicians are held accountable every time they lie to us (all of us, not just Scotland), break their promises or try to control us through misinformation and media manipulation. There's no reason that anyone - yes voter, no voter, people in England - shouldn't all become a part of that. In my opinion it could truly herald a new era of accountability in politics. Governments and their election campaigns rely so heavily on ignorance in the population... Putting a dent in that, hopefully obliterating that, is a goal that we can all work towards. Maybe it's not too late? They don't understand social media and they are terrified of it... The free flow of information is creating an upcoming generation so different to the elder people of today. I just hope they don't find a way to stem that flow.

Either way I don't regret voting yes. I think the referendum only having that 45/55 split was essential. Anything more definitive (say 40/60 or lower) would have had nowhere near the political impact. I just hope to God we don't just slide back into the way things have been for so long. People need to stay interested, stay AWAKE, whichever way they voted.

[joeysteele]

Already there are a fair number of my family in Scotland who are now just about wishing they had voted 'yes' rather than 'no' now.
They were swayed in the end by the promise of new powers being seen to 'instantly' after the referendum.

It may well be more unrest to come yet.
That will be very sad to see and I hope doesn't materialise.

[user104658]

Already there are a fair number of my family in Scotland who are now just about wishing they had voted 'yes' rather than 'no' now.
They were swayed in the end by the promise of new powers being seen to 'instantly' after the referendum.

It may well be more unrest to come yet.
That will be very sad to see and I hope doesn't materialise.

The stupid thing is that if you actually read what Miliband is saying, I don't necessarily disagree with him. He's basically saying that it's important for the agreement to be honoured but equally important that it's done properly, that what is being offered is considered and discussed, that people are consulted, before a decision is made on exactly what is being done. He warns against rushing anything through "under the table" at Westminster because it's likely to be full of holes and may even be to the detriment of Scotland. It makes a lot of sense. He's 100% correct that if this is being done, it needs to be done properly and not a cobbled together goody bag of flimsy, vague crap just to fit a tight deadline. He's also mentioned devolution for English regions which if done right would be one of the biggest steps towards social justice we've seen in generations. Not that I believe he'll get that, too many London powers would be working against him.

Of course, the headlines and that little bold chunk of text at the start of every article is completely misrepresenting the actual content of what has been said... And as ever people are buying it hook line and sinker. The ONLY explanation for this, is that the UK media was never just "pro union", it's actually plain "pro tory", as this is being used now as a tool to undermine Labour whilst making it seem that Mr Cameron had honourable intentions. "I wanted to give yous powerses, honest, but that mean Ed stoppeded me :(".

If people don't open their eyes, and quickly, we're getting a second Tory term, which will make the cuts and policies delivered in the last 4 years look like a beautiful meadow of rainbows and sunshine.

[Kizzy]

The stupid thing is that if you actually read what Miliband is saying, I don't necessarily disagree with him. He's basically saying that it's important for the agreement to be honoured but equally important that it's done properly, that what is being offered is considered and discussed, that people are consulted, before a decision is made on exactly what is being done. He warns against rushing anything through "under the table" at Westminster because it's likely to be full of holes and may even be to the detriment of Scotland. It makes a lot of sense. He's 100% correct that if this is being done, it needs to be done properly and not a cobbled together goody bag of flimsy, vague crap just to fit a tight deadline. He's also mentioned devolution for English regions which if done right would be one of the biggest steps towards social justice we've seen in generations. Not that I believe he'll get that, too many London powers would be working against him.

Of course, the headlines and that little bold chunk of text at the start of every article is completely misrepresenting the actual content of what has been said... And as ever people are buying it hook line and sinker. The ONLY explanation for this, is that the UK media was never just "pro union", it's actually plain "pro tory", as this is being used now as a tool to undermine Labour whilst making it seem that Mr Cameron had honourable intentions. "I wanted to give yous powerses, honest, but that mean Ed stoppeded me :(".

If people don't open their eyes, and quickly, we're getting a second Tory term, which will make the cuts and policies delivered in the last 4 years look like a beautiful meadow of rainbows and sunshine.

This is what's ruining politics and good politicians media slur campaigns, traditionally the conservatives have spent an inordinate amount of money ensuring the oppositions perceived faux pas are under a microscope constantly.
Ed is correct in utilising the aftermath of the referendum for actually doing the job he is meant to do, and not shmoozing with journalists... Like you I'm astounded not many can see this grandstanding for what it is.

[joeysteele]

The stupid thing is that if you actually read what Miliband is saying, I don't necessarily disagree with him. He's basically saying that it's important for the agreement to be honoured but equally important that it's done properly, that what is being offered is considered and discussed, that people are consulted, before a decision is made on exactly what is being done. He warns against rushing anything through "under the table" at Westminster because it's likely to be full of holes and may even be to the detriment of Scotland. It makes a lot of sense. He's 100% correct that if this is being done, it needs to be done properly and not a cobbled together goody bag of flimsy, vague crap just to fit a tight deadline. He's also mentioned devolution for English regions which if done right would be one of the biggest steps towards social justice we've seen in generations. Not that I believe he'll get that, too many London powers would be working against him.

Of course, the headlines and that little bold chunk of text at the start of every article is completely misrepresenting the actual content of what has been said... And as ever people are buying it hook line and sinker. The ONLY explanation for this, is that the UK media was never just "pro union", it's actually plain "pro tory", as this is being used now as a tool to undermine Labour whilst making it seem that Mr Cameron had honourable intentions. "I wanted to give yous powerses, honest, but that mean Ed stoppeded me :(".

If people don't open their eyes, and quickly, we're getting a second Tory term, which will make the cuts and policies delivered in the last 4 years look like a beautiful meadow of rainbows and sunshine.

Great post, being an optimist and for once being more thankful for social media,I think most eyes are open and will stay open for the next election.

The message however needs to be constatntly made and got through of the dangers already presented and the greater dangers to come if this Conservative party got elected.

For me, I cannot see any way they could on their own,they could just at a push be the lragest party but with depleted Lib Dem numbers, no way could they have the luxury of votes in Parliament that have had over the last 4 years, even with them on board again.

That is my first hope, however my main hope is that they are turfed out of office decisively,I still expect a minimum 30 overall majority for Labour and I really hope Labour do not give up on that.
Forget the fact that Ed Miliband is still not that popular with voters, use the big guns to present the message.
he can show his competence once elected as PM.

Margaret Thatcher was way behind Jim Callaghan from all I have read and heard as to then in 1979 but managed to win an overall majority in the region of 40.

Following this referendum,I still feel sure it will got thoruhg, I am a bit peeved the Lib Dems are taking their time is saying much as to this so far but I would like to see them broadly come out in favour of Ed Miliband's stance and ensure the passage of the powers for Scotland go through as promised with the other issue looked at separately.

For me, if this PM insists on other conditions of transferring the powers,thereby moving the goalposts then I really hope he pays for that at the election in 2015.

He is right to raise any issue he likes and plan to do something to address it, his first and only priority now however should be, to with the support of the other main parties, fulfil the promise he signed up to with no other wording or conditions listed at the time.
No matter the threats and grumbling from his own more extreme MPs.

One thing is for sure, the 2015 election is going to be on the most vile and dirtiest of campaigns ever, something that will only lead to voters being turned off even more.
It will not be a good advert for politics at all unlike this referendum for Scottish independence which was in the main.

[the truth]

the spineless plebs in Westminster all had the exact same opinions.....all paid for by their "sponsors" pathetic....bbc also spewed out their establishment propaganda, that twat nick robinson got more airtime than alex salmond and the snp put together

[joeysteele]

the spineless plebs in Westminster all had the exact same opinions.....all paid for by their "sponsors" pathetic....bbc also spewed out their establishment propaganda, that twat nick robinson got more airtime than alex salmond and the snp put together

I found the BBC coverage rather questionable at times I agree with that.
Then again, I find most of what they do not strictly in accordance with their impartiality 'rule'.

[arista]

Alex has said the no voters
were tricked


But the PM has confirmed, today the Scottish Plan by the 3 leaders
will go ahead

[joeysteele]

Alex has said the no voters
were tricked


But the PM has confirmed, today the Scottish Plan by the 3 leaders
will go ahead

Which had he made that very clear rather than infer that one was conditional on the other,as he did the other day,that would have been a different story.

I don't trust this PM at all and I think he and some of his party hoped they could link the 2 issues together for the same vote.
Thankfully that rug has been pulled from under his feet,it has been seen through, and I see this latest statement as a damage limitation exercise from him, nothing more.

He was at risk of appearing as a PM whose word meant nothing at all and I guess he realised it would be unwise to take a whole Nation on as to that one by making Scotland wait until the English Issue was settled.

[the truth]

nick robinson is a tory. he was a tory in uni and still is. the wya his narratives completely swamp the news coverage is a disgrace

[joeysteele]

nick robinson is a tory. he was a tory in uni and still is. the wya his narratives completely swamp the news coverage is a disgrace

I dont care for any of the so called political experts but Nick Robinson does really irritate me a great deal.
I agree he is far too biased to be on TV so much as to political matters.

[Jord]

I voted yes so I'm gutted about the result, but what's done is done. I was in the city centre on Friday and there was a really grim atmosphere. Was very eery for Buchanan Street to be so quiet even although it was busy.

Pictures On fb of buildings on fire now

Why is the news not covering this?

There was one news channel that referred to it as a "minor scuffle" apparently. :laugh:

[lostalex]

so i guess scottish people really are as dumb as they look. (no offense)

[user104658]

so i guess scottish people really are as dumb as they look. (no offense)

Only 55% of us, and the majority of those are old people (79% of pensioners voted no, taking pensioners out of the equation the referendum result was nearly 60% yes).

Everyone already knows that old people are stupid.

[Kizzy]

Only 55% of us, and the majority of those are old people (79% of pensioners voted no, taking pensioners out of the equation the referendum result was nearly 60% yes).

Everyone already knows that old people are stupid.

No they aren't, that's a bit of a sweeping statement, you cant say with any authority who voted one way or another either since the ballot was private.

[joeysteele]

I don't think it can be assumed generally old people are stupid, in the case of Scotland at all, the younger people were likely more ready to take the challenge as to independence, from their perspective it seemed a risk worth taking.

For those much older, they have probably stronger ties with the other UK nations,some will have fought with other Brits in the 2nd world war, then also helping the UK build up the Country again after that too.
So the longer and stronger the ties,the less likely there will be a wish to sever those ties totally.

It indicates however for the future that someday the break will come,had this PM stuck to his original statement of linking the new Scots powers to a change in English voting then it may have come sooner than anyone could have ever thought.

Lostalex it was who said ages ago, this indepence wouldn't happen because people don't like change and in the main that is probably what was in the minds of the older voters.
No one is stupid for voting either way, both old and young looked at this from a likely different perspective and also their experience as to the UK.

In the end,although a decisive win for 'no' came about,it was still close,out of over 3 and a half million people voting,just something like 193,000 voting 'yes' instead of 'no' and the result would have gone the other way, that is how close it was and how many votes it came down to.

I am glad Scotland stayed but this govt and indeed the other parties at Westminster need to have people snapping at their heels to make sure they honour their promise to the Scots.
Also unlike how this PM and some in his Party have started after the referendum,now set out to treat the Scottish nation with far more respect that has been lacking for decades now.

The SNP need a really good leader to do that and keep the pressure on, Nicola Sturgeon for me is not the person,I just wish Alex Salmond had stayed and seen that one through.
As even now, he may yet still be proven right that in this referendum,there was an attempt by part of this Govt to 'use' the Scots to try to get their own way in other things.

[Kyle]

No they aren't, that's a bit of a sweeping statement, you cant say with any authority who voted one way or another either since the ballot was private.

Ignore it Kizzy that's what happens when people don't get what they want.

[user104658]

Sigh. I was obviously being flippant?

Anyway, no, obviously old people are not stupid any more than people in general are stupid (which is "quite a lot", to be fair, but anyway...). They didn't vote stupidly. For themselves, they voted sensibly.

What they did do though, was vote selfishly... more concerned with their own comfort in their twilight years than the futures of the hopeless and jobless young generations (who overwhelmingly were in favour of a "yes" vote).

That is a problem, to me. I'm sorry if it's taboo to say it but... a 70 year old voter is most likely going to be 6 feet under within a couple of decades. The teenagers and 20-somethings who wanted change, have to put up with their decision for the rest of their lives which could be 60 to 80 years. Our children and their children, have to put up with it forever. But yeah... old Bob and Sue want to buy a caravan, don't you know.

[Kizzy]

Sigh. I was obviously being flippant?

Anyway, no, obviously old people are not stupid any more than people in general are stupid (which is "quite a lot", to be fair, but anyway...). They didn't vote stupidly. For themselves, they voted sensibly.

What they did do though, was vote selfishly... more concerned with their own comfort in their twilight years than the futures of the hopeless and jobless young generations (who overwhelmingly were in favour of a "yes" vote).

That is a problem, to me. I'm sorry if it's taboo to say it but... a 70 year old voter is most likely going to be 6 feet under within a couple of decades. The teenagers and 20-somethings who wanted change, have to put up with their decision for the rest of their lives which could be 60 to 80 years. Our children and their children, have to put up with it forever. But yeah... old Bob and Sue want to buy a caravan, don't you know.

Why are you sighing? How was I to know you were being 'flippant'?
Don't older people have children, or grandchildren to consider? Oh, but they wouldn't consider them because they're 'selfish', another unfair unfounded generalisation.
You don't know what they did, so it's best to stop assuming you can assess the thoughts of the elderly population of Scotland.

[bots]

Sigh. I was obviously being flippant?

Anyway, no, obviously old people are not stupid any more than people in general are stupid (which is "quite a lot", to be fair, but anyway...). They didn't vote stupidly. For themselves, they voted sensibly.

What they did do though, was vote selfishly... more concerned with their own comfort in their twilight years than the futures of the hopeless and jobless young generations (who overwhelmingly were in favour of a "yes" vote).

That is a problem, to me. I'm sorry if it's taboo to say it but... a 70 year old voter is most likely going to be 6 feet under within a couple of decades. The teenagers and 20-somethings who wanted change, have to put up with their decision for the rest of their lives which could be 60 to 80 years. Our children and their children, have to put up with it forever. But yeah... old Bob and Sue want to buy a caravan, don't you know.

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that older people have more life experience and are therefore more likely to make the correct decision than those younger. Your view is entirely coloured by the fact they didn't vote as you wanted them to. A very immature outlook.

[Kizzy]

You could just as easy say too that the 16-17yr olds were just voting yes in a defiant anti establishment way, and hadn't fully understood the ramifications?..
But again nobody can say how or why for certain, it's all conjecture.

[joeysteele]

Really, it doesn't matter whether someone is 100 years old or 16 years old as to this.

All have an equal right to decide what they see is the best way forward for them,from their perspectives, their experiences of life, how they want their Country to be.

Older people have lived longer and that is the only difference,older people have over the past few decades seen many people in just their teens and 20s killed and their lives lost, there are no guarantees as to life.
In these uncertain times where older people have seen in the past what can be achieved together with others,that was likely a factor as to how and why they voted as they did.

Younger people have a different view possibly overall of such things, so that swayed how they voted probably too.

I saw endless debates with the young voters and older voters, both sets of ages having undecided voters among them,with only a small issue likely swaying how they eventually voted.

Old people are not stupid and neither are young people,they are just all equal citizens of Scotland and now still the UK too.
They have every right,without criticism or insult,to decide how they cast their votes on any issue when asked to.

[Kizzy]

:clap1:

[Kyle]

Really, it doesn't matter whether someone is 100 years old or 16 years old as to this.

All have an equal right to decide what they see is the best way forward for them,from their perspectives, their experiences of life, how they want their Country to be.

Older people have lived longer and that is the only difference,older people have over the past few decades seen many people in just their teens and 20s killed and their lives lost, there are no guarantees as to life.
In these uncertain times where older people have seen in the past what can be achieved together with others,that was likely a factor as to how and why they voted as they did.

Younger people have a different view possibly overall of such things, so that swayed how they voted probably too.

I saw endless debates with the young voters and older voters, both sets of ages having undecided voters among them,with only a small issue likely swaying how they eventually voted.

Old people are not stupid and neither are young people,they are just all equal citizens of Scotland and now still the UK too.
They have every right,without criticism or insult,to decide how they cast their votes on any issue when asked to.

As fair and balanced as always My fellow Aquarian :worship:

[MTVN]

I think it was something like 71% of 16-17 year olds voted Yes but of the 18-24s a majority voted No

Shows how clever it was of Salmond to have the voting age lowered. Also shows the folly of youth perhaps :whistle:

[user104658]

Older people are more likely to be scared and swayed by media bias (and they WERE scared and swayed by it, these opinions have been covered extensively in the run up to the referendum) and, contrary to the outdated belief that old = wise, elderly people are less likely to be assessing all of the argument because they are less likely to have access to anything other than mainstream media. Note that I say "less likely", not that this applies to all elderly people, but to say that it's not true is just... well... it's just incorrect. With the BBC and every major print newspaper being pro-union, the elderly population was immersed in that and voted accordingly.

[user104658]

Also shows the folly of youth perhaps :whistle:


And that would be why the majority of 24 to 55 year olds - the VAST bulk of the working population - were a majority yes?

[James]

No-one knows how the age groups voted. It's not like you had to fill in your date-of-birth on the ballot paper.

[bots]

And that would be why the majority of 24 to 55 year olds - the VAST bulk of the working population - were a majority yes?

So given your gross assumption there, are you suggesting that over 55's shouldn't be allowed a vote, just because they may are may not align with your particular thinking?

Strikes me as a severe case of sour grapes, and an unwillingness to accept that others are entitled to an opinion different from your own

[MTVN]

Older people are more likely to be scared and swayed by media bias (and they WERE scared and swayed by it, these opinions have been covered extensively in the run up to the referendum) and, contrary to the outdated belief that old = wise, elderly people are less likely to be assessing all of the argument because they are less likely to have access to anything other than mainstream media. Note that I say "less likely", not that this applies to all elderly people, but to say that it's not true is just... well... it's just incorrect. With the BBC and every major print newspaper being pro-union, the elderly population was immersed in that and voted accordingly.

If we were to generalise you'd also tend to say that the youngest - the 16/17 year olds - are more prone to being swayed by questionable claims and emotional arguments without having full comprehension of the ramifications of their choice

And that would be why the majority of 24 to 55 year olds - the VAST bulk of the working population - were a majority yes?

More marginal in that age group than the 16-17 year olds though. I'd say the 18-24 year olds hesitancy is because they are the ones who would be most immediately affected by independence - naturally very concerned about job prospects etc.

[MTVN]

No-one knows how the age groups voted. It's not like you had to fill in your date-of-birth on the ballot paper.

True, the figures I'm using were just from a poll by Lord Ashcroft so they may not be entirely reliable: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/scotland-referendum-who-voted-yes-4286743

[Kizzy]

Older people are more likely to be scared and swayed by media bias (and they WERE scared and swayed by it, these opinions have been covered extensively in the run up to the referendum) and, contrary to the outdated belief that old = wise, elderly people are less likely to be assessing all of the argument because they are less likely to have access to anything other than mainstream media. Note that I say "less likely", not that this applies to all elderly people, but to say that it's not true is just... well... it's just incorrect. With the BBC and every major print newspaper being pro-union, the elderly population was immersed in that and voted accordingly.

Anyone can be swayed by media bias, in fact the older you get the more you know the media are used to sway voters and are more likely to be objective.
What does it matter what they have access to, would the internet be a better tool...facebook maybe?
I for one didn't say ALL older people are wise, it's as equally false as ALL younger voters being well informed.
Again you have no idea how anyone voted so this supposition is pointless.

[user104658]

So given your gross assumption there, are you suggesting that over 55's shouldn't be allowed a vote, just because they may are may not align with your particular thinking?

Strikes me as a severe case of sour grapes, and an unwillingness to accept that others are entitled to an opinion different from your own

No, I'm only countering the claim that it was mainly the "young and naive" who voted "yes". There are strong indications that the young voted heavily yes, 18 to 24 voted more or less in line with the result (45/55 in favour of no), the reverse of that in the 24 to 55 bracket, and then the eldest bracket voting heavily "no". Most yes voted came from the adult working age population, not from the young and naive. That's all I was pointing out.

As for the "sour grapes" comment... All I can say is that to be so dismissive as to use terms like that, I can only assume you have absolutely no concept of the impact that this referendums outcome has and will have. It's not a bloody reality show where you "pick your favourite politician" - the events of the last week will affect the courses of the lives of several million people. So yeah... If Scotland now gets shafted by Westminster (which is looking like an increasing possibility) and that's the fault of unenlightened people being duped by fear and media bias, then "sour grapes" doesn't really cover it. It's unthinkable.

[user104658]

Anyone can be swayed by media bias, in fact the older you get the more you know the media are used to sway voters and are more likely to be objective.
What does it matter what they have access to, would the internet be a better tool...facebook maybe?
I for one didn't say ALL older people are wise, it's as equally false as ALL younger voters being well informed.
Again you have no idea how anyone voted so this supposition is pointless.

The Internet, Facebook, a peppa pig pop up story, alphabet spaghetti thrown indiscriminately at the wall... Any of these would have been a better tool for them to use than the mainstream media.

I suppose this can be hard to grasp if you haven't actually been living in Scotland for the last month or so. Every newspaper stand, every day, has had every front page plastered with pro-union rhetoric and propaganda and then more every evening on the BBC. Fear, ridicule and scare stories later side stepping into full page union Jack adorned spreads about the greatness of Britain.

This is not even coming from the perspective of someone who hoped for independence. This is coming from someone who simply believes that the press has a DUTY to report with impartiality. To report the facts and let people genuinely make up their own minds. I would have been just as dismayed had the papers been heavily pro-independence. The lack of balance has been like nothing I have ever seen before. On here we all talk about Endemol and their "selective editing" of housemates... It was that, on a national scale. To suggest that it doesn't have a major effect on voting patterns, and that it isn't likely to effect most the groups who are still most likely to use core television channels and mainstream newspapers as their news source (the over 55s) is just burying your head in the sand.

Younger, more tech-savvy people have a broader range of information resources and are therefore better informed. It is that simple. It doesn't apply to everyone - there are plenty of ignorant young people and plenty of very well informed elderly - but in general it's just a fact.

[Nedusa]

No sorry this issue is not going anywhere, quite the reverse in fact, with over 1.6 million people voting to leave the Union over 45% the question of independence will not go away and in fact will pick up even more votes as younger voters come of age in Scotland.

If you think everything will go back to the way it was then think again the UK in its current form is as good as over.




.

[LikeABoatOnWater]

What a nightmare, watched it from down under, knew we wouldnt be so lucky to get rid of Scotland, England should get a vote now and we can vote them out. The amount of money a scotish person gets from the government compared to a person from the northwest of England is disgusting, how dare they complain when they pretty much have the best deal in the uk, feck off ya moaning gits.

[bots]

As for the "sour grapes" comment... All I can say is that to be so dismissive as to use terms like that, I can only assume you have absolutely no concept of the impact that this referendums outcome has and will have. It's not a bloody reality show where you "pick your favourite politician" - the events of the last week will affect the courses of the lives of several million people. So yeah... If Scotland now gets shafted by Westminster (which is looking like an increasing possibility) and that's the fault of unenlightened people being duped by fear and media bias, then "sour grapes" doesn't really cover it. It's unthinkable.

With respect, it is you that is being dismissive of those who choose to vote in a particular fashion, and then attaching age to the agenda as well in a very disrespectful fashion.

In case you hadn't realised, and what I was indirectly pointing out, that whether a repeat referendum is held next week or in 20 years, you will always have the age distribution voting, with the same influences on their lives. So, unless you remove a section of the population from voting, you will always have the same factors involved.

[user104658]

No sorry this issue is not going anywhere, quite the reverse in fact, with over 1.6 million people voting to leave the Union over 45% the question of independence will not go away and in fact will pick up even more votes as younger voters come of age in Scotland.

If you think everything will go back to the way it was then think again the UK in its current form is as good as over.

It won't even take that long, there's already a huge surge of people questioning their "no" vote due to uncertainty over what's actually going to be offered as "extra powers". If it's not extensive and actually useful to the average Scottish voter... if it's just lip service pieced together because "promises were made"... then if you held another referendum in a year the result would (easily) flip. Opinion polls are showing that the last minute deal brokered by Gordon Brown had a huge impact in the polling booth... if it turns out to be lies or even exaggerations then any future referendum would be as good as won for separation. What could a future Better Together campaign even campaign on, if their campaign this time around was revealed to be a pack of lies?

However, I'm sure there are people tucked away in a little room in Westminster, busily figuring out how to make it impossible or even illegal for another independence opportunity to ever arise... so by the time the population figures out that we're being screwed... it'll be too late to do anything about it. I think Scotland has missed it's one and only opportunity for positive independence. If it ever is a possibility again, it'll be because the UK as a whole is falling apart. This was the last chance to leave before the country is completely broken.

The only thing giving me any hope at the moment, is that it's sparked talk of devolution of regions in England which MIGHT at least be a start. The number one reason that I was in favour of independence was to get away from toxic "one city" London-based politics. If... IF... the UK as a whole can actually manage to successfully decentralize political power in a meaningful and effective way, then I'm not entirely adverse to the UK staying together.

I'm not anti-Union or a Nationalist. I just want people to actually have a say. I'm not content to be quietly ruled by a select elite of plum-mouthed multi-millionaires. I hoped (vaguely, I never truly believed it could happen) for independence because it's the only way I could see for at least a portion of the population to escape that. I don't really believe that the UK ever will.

[Nedusa]

It won't even take that long, there's already a huge surge of people questioning their "no" vote due to uncertainty over what's actually going to be offered as "extra powers". If it's not extensive and actually useful to the average Scottish voter... if it's just lip service pieced together because "promises were made"... then if you held another referendum in a year the result would (easily) flip. Opinion polls are showing that the last minute deal brokered by Gordon Brown had a huge impact in the polling booth... if it turns out to be lies or even exaggerations then any future referendum would be as good as won for separation. What could a future Better Together campaign even campaign on, if their campaign this time around was revealed to be a pack of lies?

However, I'm sure there are people tucked away in a little room in Westminster, busily figuring out how to make it impossible or even illegal for another independence opportunity to ever arise... so by the time the population figures out that we're being screwed... it'll be too late to do anything about it. I think Scotland has missed it's one and only opportunity for positive independence. If it ever is a possibility again, it'll be because the UK as a whole is falling apart. This was the last chance to leave before the country is completely broken.

The only thing giving me any hope at the moment, is that it's sparked talk of devolution of regions in England which MIGHT at least be a start. The number one reason that I was in favour of independence was to get away from toxic "one city" London-based politics. If... IF... the UK as a whole can actually manage to successfully decentralize political power in a meaningful and effective way, then I'm not entirely adverse to the UK staying together.

I'm not anti-Union or a Nationalist. I just want people to actually have a say. I'm not content to be quietly ruled by a select elite of plum-mouthed multi-millionaires. I hoped (vaguely, I never truly believed it could happen) for independence because it's the only way I could see for at least a portion of the population to escape that. I don't really believe that the UK ever will.

I agree with your sentiments , however independence does not necessarily depend on another referendum , a large enough SNP majority in the next election would allow an independence motion without the need for another ref. so things are not looking good for Dave and his mates.




.

[Josy]

People did have a say, and the result of it was them choosing to stay in the union.

And btw I find it very dismissive to keep posting that no voters were scared and that's what made them vote the way they did, that's absolute nonsense tbh, most no voters that I know where always voting no, it was nothing at all to do with any last minute offers from Westminster.

The yes campaign left a helluva lot of questions unanswered and if like the ones I know then most no voters found it better to stay in the union with a government that won't always be there instead of taking a huge risk wandering into unknown territory with permanent independence.

[the truth]

the bbc coverage was a disgrace as it has been for so very long...the endless pro institutional propoganda with the usual scare mongering from the establishment and veiled threats and pro monarchy drivel was nauseating
this clearly narrowed the gap and of course there was ballot rigging
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/22/scottish-referendum-vote-rigging-claims-recount-petitions

[Kizzy]

The Internet, Facebook, a peppa pig pop up story, alphabet spaghetti thrown indiscriminately at the wall... Any of these would have been a better tool for them to use than the mainstream media.

I suppose this can be hard to grasp if you haven't actually been living in Scotland for the last month or so. Every newspaper stand, every day, has had every front page plastered with pro-union rhetoric and propaganda and then more every evening on the BBC. Fear, ridicule and scare stories later side stepping into full page union Jack adorned spreads about the greatness of Britain.

This is not even coming from the perspective of someone who hoped for independence. This is coming from someone who simply believes that the press has a DUTY to report with impartiality. To report the facts and let people genuinely make up their own minds. I would have been just as dismayed had the papers been heavily pro-independence. The lack of balance has been like nothing I have ever seen before. On here we all talk about Endemol and their "selective editing" of housemates... It was that, on a national scale. To suggest that it doesn't have a major effect on voting patterns, and that it isn't likely to effect most the groups who are still most likely to use core television channels and mainstream newspapers as their news source (the over 55s) is just burying your head in the sand.

Younger, more tech-savvy people have a broader range of information resources and are therefore better informed. It is that simple. It doesn't apply to everyone - there are plenty of ignorant young people and plenty of very well informed elderly - but in general it's just a fact.

It's not that simple, who's to say the pretty young things will access this font of all knowledge, is there never bias in the tinterweb then?
It hasn't just been all over in Scotland but here too, I don't know where you've got this impression of the English wanting to shaft Scotland; or that all your elderly citizens are dribbling morons... the media maybe?

[Kizzy]

kUR-HgAtwtg#t=82

[the truth]

its the establishment that want to shaft the people, its nothing to do with english or scots

[user104658]

its the establishment that want to shaft the people, its nothing to do with english or scots

Exactly, I didn't say anything about the English wanting to shaft Scotland. The London-based oligarchy want to shaft all of us. Or rather, they HAVE been shafting all of us, for generations.

[user104658]

It's not that simple, who's to say the pretty young things will access this font of all knowledge, is there never bias in the tinterweb then?
It hasn't just been all over in Scotland but here too, I don't know where you've got this impression of the English wanting to shaft Scotland; or that all your elderly citizens are dribbling morons... the media maybe?

There is but on both sides of the coin. Pro-union sites and groups are union biased, pro-indy sites are independence biased. But they are BOTH THERE to be seen and assessed. The papers had bias and all going one way. I don't mind if a newspaper print biased opinion pieces, so long as they then also print biased opinion pieces offering the alternate view. That DID NOT happen. It was all pro-union, and often so filled with scaremongering and hyperbole that it was actually laughable.

[James]

The similarities with Big Brother fans who make up conspiracies when a vote doesn't go their way are uncanny.

There must be some psychological effect going on, like the more passionate people get about something the more they can't accept that other people don't share the same viewpoint.

[Kizzy]

Exactly, I didn't say anything about the English wanting to shaft Scotland. The London-based oligarchy want to shaft all of us. Or rather, they HAVE been shafting all of us, for generations.

Yes, you did.

'So yeah... If Scotland now gets shafted by Westminster (which is looking like an increasing possibility)'

[user104658]

The yes campaign left a helluva lot of questions unanswered and if like the ones I know then most no voters found it better to stay in the union with a government that won't always be there instead of taking a huge risk wandering into unknown territory with permanent independence.

I understand that but I think what many don't see is that the country (the UK) is wandering into unknown territory anyway. The entire western world is. I personally believe that an independent Scotland would have been in a better position to tackle that new world. I'm sure many people do believe that we're in a stronger position to enter it with the UK. I just wish that people at least knew that that's what they're weighing up.

We're facing uncertainty either way, things are going to be changing for all of us either way, there is no "keeping things as they are"... not now. Not for the last 10 or so years. It's just not feasible... it's not "change" vs "no change", it's a fork in the road with two unknown destinations, but no going back.

[Kizzy]

There is but on both sides of the coin. Pro-union sites and groups are union biased, pro-indy sites are independence biased. But they are BOTH THERE to be seen and assessed. The papers had bias and all going one way. I don't mind if a newspaper print biased opinion pieces, so long as they then also print biased opinion pieces offering the alternate view. That DID NOT happen. It was all pro-union, and often so filled with scaremongering and hyperbole that it was actually laughable.

There was an argument for independence, it wasn't exclusive to the web.

[user104658]

Yes, you did.

'So yeah... If Scotland now gets shafted by Westminster (which is looking like an increasing possibility)'

So in your opinion, Westminster = England?

Oh dear...

[user104658]

The similarities with Big Brother fans who make up conspiracies when a vote doesn't go their way are uncanny.

There must be some psychological effect going on, like the more passionate people get about something the more they can't accept that other people don't share the same viewpoint.

Who has mentioned conspiracy? I don't think anything was rigged or votes were miscounted. I do think that people were misguided in their voting.

The pro-union stance of the media isn't a conspiracy, it's a fact.

[user104658]

There was an argument for independence, it wasn't exclusive to the web.

It certainly wasn't in the printed media or on the BBC...

[Kizzy]

It certainly wasn't in the printed media or on the BBC...

There was a whole campaign.. on television, not the BBC obv but then not much is.

[James]

Who has mentioned conspiracy? I don't think anything was rigged or votes were miscounted. I do think that people were misguided in their voting.

The pro-union stance of the media isn't a conspiracy, it's a fact.

There's previous posts in the thread about voting conspiracies - I was referring to those.

[bots]

It certainly wasn't in the printed media or on the BBC...

That's just not true

[Cherie]

I wonder what the percentage the No vote had the Scottish Diaspora been allowed a vote, 800,00 Scots live in England and a Yes vote would have impacted on their lives far more than those living in Scotland, they must have gone through all sorts of hell wondering what their futures were if the vote was yes, yet their voice was silenced as was any Scottish born living in the Eurozone. If they do revisit this anytime soon, give every Scottish born person a vote, it affects all not just those living in Scotland.

[lostalex]

The Russian observers have said that it was a sham. They said it wasn't democratic and there was probably corruption. It wasn't up to international standards.

I think we need a re-vote.

"Russia has said the conduct of the Scottish referendum "did not meet international standards", with its observers complaining the count took place in rooms that were too big and that the procedure was badly flawed."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/russia-calls-foul-scottish-referendum

[Kyle]

I wonder what the percentage the No vote had the Scottish Diaspora been allowed a vote, 800,00 Scots live in England and a Yes vote would have impacted on their lives far more than those living in Scotland, they must have gone through all sorts of hell wondering what their futures were if the vote was yes, yet their voice was silenced as was any Scottish born living in the Eurozone. If they do revisit this anytime soon, give every Scottish born person a vote, it affects all not just those living in Scotland.

My Dad was fuming he never got a say in the country of his birth and the one he spent half of his life. Needless to say having lived in Scotland, served in the forces and now living in England with an English wife and having two mongrel kids he was always gonna vote no.

[lostalex]

My Dad was fuming he never got a say in the country of his birth and the one he spent half of his life. Needless to say having lived in Scotland, served in the forces and now living in England with an English wife and having two mongrel kids he was always gonna vote no.

yea, the scots are fickle like that. AND DON'T YOU ****ING FORGET IT YOU ****ING LIMEY/ j/k #bettertogether

[lime]

Who has mentioned conspiracy? I don't think anything was rigged or votes were miscounted. I do think that people were misguided in their voting.

The pro-union stance of the media isn't a conspiracy, it's a fact.


Have to agree with you with regards to the media coverage .

As someone who is not from the Uk nor do I live there ...sky news is always on at the reception at work (BTW I am a South African living in Ireland since '99)..alot of us where literaly cringeing at the smirks and smug looks off some of their presenters when someone from the "Yes" side was speaking.It actually made uncomfortable viewing at times

[Kizzy]

It might have made a difference if it went on your place of birth but then there would be the risk of document forgery. Best to keep the vote for those living there and directly affected.

[user104658]

Have to agree with you with regards to the media coverage .

As someone who is not from the Uk nor do I live there ...sky news is always on at the reception at work (BTW I am a South African living in Ireland since '99)..alot of us where literaly cringeing at the smirks and smug looks off some of their presenters when someone from the "Yes" side was speaking.It actually made uncomfortable viewing at times

Exactly. It's not that both sides of the argument weren't presented... it's that the No argument was presented authoritatively and enthusiastically whilst the counter arguments were presented with this face: :hehe:

Oh by the way... Mr Cameron has announced that whilst more powers will be delivered to Scotland as promised - they will come hand-in-hand with a cut in overall funding. Would anyone still like to argue over whether or not "No" voters were deceived? The number of "No" voters kicking off about it would suggest otherwise...

[Kizzy]

So in your opinion, Westminster = England?

Oh dear...

Don't patronise me please, your post wasn't clear, in between you blaming the elderly, the media and westminster it seemed you'd lumped the English in with them.

[Kizzy]

Am I surprised devious dave has punished the Scottish for daring to be anti establishment? No.

[James]

Exactly. It's not that both sides of the argument weren't presented... it's that the No argument was presented authoritatively and enthusiastically whilst the counter arguments were presented with this face: :hehe:

Oh by the way... Mr Cameron has announced that whilst more powers will be delivered to Scotland as promised - they will come hand-in-hand with a cut in overall funding. Would anyone still like to argue over whether or not "No" voters were deceived? The number of "No" voters kicking off about it would suggest otherwise...

It's just Salmond doing his usual political manoeuvering trying to make enough people believe they were deceived to change things around or get the SNP re-elected. What about all the empty underivable promises the yes campaign made? Like getting currency union, rapid EU membership, sketchy defence plans.

Most people have known for ages how they were going to vote.

[Cherie]

It might have made a difference if it went on your place of birth but then there would be the risk of document forgery. Best to keep the vote for those living there and directly affected.

I don't know how you could argue that only those living in Scotland would be directly affected? what would have happened to those working in the European Union if Scotland was no longer a member state? Producing a passport to vote once you registered at the Polling station would take care of document forgery, how many people are going to forge a passport so they could vote in a referendum? were there policies in place for Scottish Citizens that no longer met the criteria for working in Europe if the vote was yes? People have relocated due to the lack of employment in Scotland who might hope to return one day denied their voice, I thought that was an appalling breach of human rights!

[Josy]

It's just Salmond doing his usual political manoeuvering trying to make enough people believe they were deceived to change things around or get the SNP re-elected. What about all the empty underivable promises the yes campaign made? Like getting currency union, rapid EU membership, sketchy defence plans.

Most people have known for ages how they were going to vote.

Exactly. Especially the bolded part.

Also must say I'm pretty shocked tbh at how much Salmond is coming across now as what only can be described as a very sore loser, especially the things he has been coming out with these past few days, so much for his 'We will now go ahead together united as one nation' speech he made after the results came out.

[user104658]

It's just Salmond doing his usual political manoeuvering trying to make enough people believe they were deceived to change things around or get the SNP re-elected.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. something that David Cameron has said is, somehow, inexplicably, Salmond's political maneuvering? In what possible way? It came directly from the mouth of the prime minister... The promised powers will come hand in hand with a nice big slash in budget.

Also... If it was truly the case that everyone had long decided how they would vote, do you really think the party leaders would have been scrambling not 2 weeks ago to draw up this agreement to transfer powers? The polls over the last year shifted from nearly 70/30 to hovering around 50/50. It may indeed not be the case but honestly, it is entirely plausible that at least a chunk of that final 5% shift was swayed by that final agreement for transferring powers.

Also, (in my mind) trying but failing to live up to ambitious election pledges when they're proven not to be feasible (as I agree is true of many pro-indy pledges) is one thing. Making promises with absolutely NO intention of them ever being a reality is quite another. It's been less than a WEEK since the referendum. Mr Cameron isn't saying "unfortunately some of these promises are going to fall short", he's outright admitting that this was the intention all along.

It's the absolute worst of politics. What a complete shambles. And we (the UK, Scottish and English) are now expected to trust these people to run the country? We're expected to believe any word they have to say again... Ever?

[bots]

Making promises with absolutely NO intention of them ever being a reality is quite another. It's been less than a WEEK since the referendum. Mr Cameron isn't saying "unfortunately some of these promises are going to fall short", he's outright admitting that this was the intention all along.


Each party has confirmed over and over again that they are sticking to the commitment made to the Scottish voters, so yet again, the statements you are making are totally false.

If, in 6 months time, the promises have not been delivered as per the published timetable then there will be grounds for concern. Until then, this is just propaganda aimed at feeding hate.

[the truth]

scotland is the best part of the uk by far, probably always was....best landscape in the world bar none.....fantastic coastline, wonderful architecture, strong agriculture, massive areas of fertile land, amazing for outdoor pursuits, best for salmon fishing, best lakes/lochs, boating , sailing, kayaking, rock climbing, mountains, best golf courses, strong unique culture, wonderful hospitality....no civil wars either...england and wales are greta countries too.....but the congestion here is worse, the social disorder down south east is intolerable as is the traffic the smog the culture clashes....despite the relative poverty in yorkshire wales etc these are still far better places to live if youre selective and can afford the nicer parts....the only areas the scots miss out to england and wales is rugby football and cricket, theyre crap at all 3....musically id also give the english and welsh the edge, unless youre into the proclaimers???

but really the country is just awesome

[Marsh.]

Can Scotland go independent to make this thread stop?

[Kizzy]

I don't know how you could argue that only those living in Scotland would be directly affected? what would have happened to those working in the European Union if Scotland was no longer a member state? Producing a passport to vote once you registered at the Polling station would take care of document forgery, how many people are going to forge a passport so they could vote in a referendum? were there policies in place for Scottish Citizens that no longer met the criteria for working in Europe if the vote was yes? People have relocated due to the lack of employment in Scotland who might hope to return one day denied their voice, I thought that was an appalling breach of human rights!

Ah yes I see, good point then it would be a grey area for them too of course. I think it's just how general elections work too though isn't it? if you're not registered as living in the UK you don't get a vote ( That's a guess I don't know)

[Kizzy]

Can Scotland go independent to make this thread stop?

How about we rename it Marshland?... I'll draw up a referendum proposal :laugh:

[Marsh.]

How about we rename it Marshland?... I'll draw up a referendum proposal :laugh:

:amazed:

[the truth]

Can Scotland go independent to make this thread stop?

can you? Ill do you a flag

[Marsh.]

Did someone say something?

[James]

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. something that David Cameron has said is, somehow, inexplicably, Salmond's political maneuvering? In what possible way? It came directly from the mouth of the prime minister... The promised powers will come hand in hand with a nice big slash in budget.

Also... If it was truly the case that everyone had long decided how they would vote, do you really think the party leaders would have been scrambling not 2 weeks ago to draw up this agreement to transfer powers? The polls over the last year shifted from nearly 70/30 to hovering around 50/50. It may indeed not be the case but honestly, it is entirely plausible that at least a chunk of that final 5% shift was swayed by that final agreement for transferring powers.

Also, (in my mind) trying but failing to live up to ambitious election pledges when they're proven not to be feasible (as I agree is true of many pro-indy pledges) is one thing. Making promises with absolutely NO intention of them ever being a reality is quite another. It's been less than a WEEK since the referendum. Mr Cameron isn't saying "unfortunately some of these promises are going to fall short", he's outright admitting that this was the intention all along.

It's the absolute worst of politics. What a complete shambles. And we (the UK, Scottish and English) are now expected to trust these people to run the country? We're expected to believe any word they have to say again... Ever?

The constitutional issues about devolving more powers are not trivial and effect the rest of the UK in different ways so have to be thought about, and that takes time. Salmond should have recognised that and respected that the vote didn't go his way instead of mouthing off about people being tricked. That wasn't statesman-like. He's no right to carry on being as divisive as that.

That Ashcroft poll had some information about when people made up their minds - findings here - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bx4rfkuIQAAbO7J.jpg:large

Admittedly it is only a poll and the age group data in it has now been contradicted by another poll. But it said that only 9% of people who eventually voted no decided finally in the last week (compared with 21% who voted yes). I did some number-crunching and 9% of 2 million no votes works out at 180,000 votes. Even if everyone single one of those votes had switched to yes (plus all the final week no votes staying the same) then no would still have won.

They promises made about extra powers were panicky, yeah, but the parties had all made that pledge months earlier in the campaign. As far as I know the only difference with the Daily Record thing was it was the three party leaders all saying it together.

Also the same poll said that 81% of no voters had already decided at the beginning of the year, compared to 61% of yes voters. So you can work out from that - 81% of 2 million is 1.62 million (higher than the final yes vote) and 61% of 1.617 million final yes votes is 987000.

That means that this year, for yes to win, based on this poll, they would have to persuade about 825000 out of the approx 1 million votes still up for grabs - 82.5%.

Also poll said that 62% of no voters said they have always known how they would vote compared to 38% for yes which I think shows how difficult it was always going to be for yes to win.

As I said it is only one poll and I don't know how reliable it is but it rings true to me that loads of people decided ages ago.

And that would be why the majority of 24 to 55 year olds - the VAST bulk of the working population - were a majority yes?

YouGov data from their on-the-day poll says only one age group (25-39) voted yes. All the others voted no. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByO4sJcIEAIeRS8.jpg

[James]

Can Scotland go independent to make this thread stop?

I should stop posting this.

[Marsh.]

I should stop posting this.

:confused: What? :worry:

[James]

Should have read - I should stop posting about this. Getting too involved.

Basically short version of what I wrote above is Alex Salmond needs to be quiet for a while.