New Conservative Plan : to ban Scottish MP's voting in London

[arista]

Labour is Angry at this.



But its Logical.
And must be done


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/scottish-referendum-david-cameron-devolution-revolution


http://news.sky.com/story/1338424/scotland-votes-no-pm-promises-new-powers


debated Live on Ch4HD News

[Crimson Dynamo]

Milliband has had a nightmare and must be replaced asap

[arista]

Milliband has had a nightmare and must be replaced asap


Ed is not liked

[joeysteele]

I don't agree, they need to devolve powers to regions in England where elected representatives elected for that region deal with those transferred powers.

Any MP elected from any Country in the UK to the Westminster parliament should, and in my view must, be able to vote on 'all' that is presented to that Parliament.
No 2 tier system of MPs for me,that for me would be far worse than what we have now.

It is bad enough that for a lot of the time for decades,that Scotland and Wales have had policy dictated to them from mainly English MPs.
The last thing we need now is the whole of England,top to bottom being dictated to as to policy by in the main the far South of England's MP's only.
Again, no thank you.

[Kizzy]

I don't agree, they need to devolve powers to regions in England where elected representatives elected for that region deal with those transferred powers.

Any MP elected from any Country in the UK to the Westminster parliament should, and in my view must, be able to vote on 'all' that is presented to that Parliament.
No 2 tier system of MPs for me,that for me would be far worse than what we have now.

It is bad enough that for a lot of the time for decades,that Scotland and Wales have had policy dictated to them from mainly English MPs.
The last thing we need now is the whole of England,top to bottom being dictated to as to policy by in the main the far South of England's MP's only.
Again, no thank you.

Totally! But you know this will be spun as 'let's get shot of the anti establishment Scottish MPs!'.... how will making these (representatives of part of the UK let's not forget) disenfranchised benefit anyone in England?

[arista]

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[joeysteele]

Totally! But you know this will be spun as 'let's get shot of the anti establishment Scottish MPs!'.... how will making these (representatives of part of the UK let's not forget) disenfranchised benefit anyone in England?

It will look really hypocritical if there has been a large efffort to ensure Scotland remained in the United Kingdom then a line was taken to strip MPs from Scotland legitimately elected to Westminster of voting rights.
Wonder where that will leave the whips.

What is needed are new elected authorities in the regions of England replacing Councils.
Given much more and extra devolved powers and none of this segregation at the full Westminster parliament to satisfy power mad MPs from the far South of England only.

[Kizzy]

It will look really hypocritical if there has been a large efffort to ensure Scotland remained in the United Kingdom then a line was taken to strip MPs from Scotland legitimately elected to Westminster of voting rights.
Wonder where that will leave the whips.

What is needed are new elected authorities in the regions of England replacing Councils.
Given much more and extra devolved powers and none of this segregation at the full Westminster parliament to satisfy power mad MPs from the far South of England only.

Yes I think we need to get behind Scotland and show Westminster that they can't rest on their laurels, awarding themselves huge rises and selling our nationalised organisations!

[MTVN]

Well its not stopping them voting in Westminster altogether, its merely an attempt to solve the West Lothian questions of how Scottish MPs are able to vote on matters which exclusively concern England. It would be very sensible to restrict such matters to only English MPs and I hope they go through with it.

[MTVN]

Slightly off topic but it bugs me how 'Westminster' has become such a dirty word. In Westminster we have the people who have been democratically elected to represent regions all over the UK, just because they do their business in London they're suddenly some sort of elitist out of touch toff clique? It's crazy how the anti-politics sentiment in the whole of the UK has evolved into an inherent scepticism of our whole democracy and national parliament. Wish everyone would stop being so paranoid and cynical and support their democratic process.

[Kizzy]

Slightly off topic but it bugs me how 'Westminster' has become such a dirty word. In Westminster we have the people who have been democratically elected to represent regions all over the UK, just because they do their business in London they're suddenly some sort of elitist out of touch toff clique? It's crazy how the anti-politics sentiment in the whole of the UK has evolved into an inherent scepticism of our whole democracy and national parliament. Wish everyone would stop being so paranoid and cynical and support their democratic process.

The same people from the same schools have been governing this country from the beginning, through subsequent years to the modern day. It's not paranoid to suggest that there is an element of elitism/cronyism involved to some degree, you would have to be blinkered to British political history to not see that.
Therefore in realistic terms how democratic is our election process, the onus during in particular conservative governments is a laizzez-faire approach to the concept of 'society' and the promotion of capitalism.
In recent years that has involved the deconstruction of many many democratically founded nationalised bodies into private ownership destabalising infrastructure within the UK.
The repetition of ideological policy across many generations makes it difficult to not be cynical.
There is nothing at all wrong with skepticism... it's not a dirty word either but healthy to have an open and inquiring mind, to recognise doublespeak and rhetoric when it's served in differing guises or in print.

[joeysteele]

They need to remove certain legislation from Westminster as to English matters and do what they have done with Scotland and Wales and devolve that power,not to an English assembly but to the regions,all of whom have different needs across the whole Country.

The Westminster parliament is and has to remain fully, 'the UK Parliament',and Govts. elected to that Parliament should not have any voting restrictions put on it by some daft ruling that some of its MPs cannot vote on certain issues.

Were the Conservatives still picking up 20+ seats from Scotland as they were a few decades ago, this would not even be on the agenda.
Devolving powers to the regions is the only way to go on this in my view.

You cannot have any govt. elected from the whole of the UK then tie its hands behind its back with restrictions on how their elected MPs may vote in the 'whole UK parliament'.
It is a recipe for even further chaos.
Also it is because Westminster has got so much wrong, and done so much wrong over the last few decades such as to MPs expenses, scandals and breaking promises to the electorate that has taken respect away from Politicians.

This move suggested by power mad Conservative MPs,is something else that demonstrates to me why Westminster needs a massive clearout rather than just consolidating these 'mini' Westminster elements within Westminster itself,who want to dictate to everyone else.

The hypocrisy of the Conservative party as to this too is nauseating, had they fallen short by only say 2 or 3 seats in the 2010 election, then they would have likely done a deal with the DUP in Northern Ireland to shore up their governing.
Excluding probably all other mainland UK parties from the process.

[Kizzy]

They need to remove certain legislation from Westminster as to English matters and do what they have done with Scotland and Wales and devolve that power,not to an English assembly but to the regions,all of whom have different needs across the whole Country.

The Westminster parliament is and has to remain fully, 'the UK Parliament',and Govts. elected to that Parliament should not have any voting restrictions put on it by some daft ruling that some of its MPs cannot vote on certain issues.

Were the Conservatives still picking up 20+ seats from Scotland as they were a few decades ago, this would not even be on the agenda.
Devolving powers to the regions is the only way to go on this in my view.

You cannot have any govt. elected from the whole of the UK then tie its hands behind its back with restrictions on how their elected MPs may vote in the 'whole UK parliament'.
It is a recipe for even further chaos.
Also it is because Westminster has got so much wrong, and done so much wrong over the last few decades such as to MPs expenses, scandals and breaking promises to the electorate that has taken respect away from Politicians.

This move suggested by power mad Conservative MPs,is something else that demonstrates to me why Westminster needs a massive clearout rather than just consolidating these 'mini' Westminster elements within Westminster itself,who want to dictate to everyone else.

The hypocrisy of the Conservative party as to this too is nauseating, had they fallen short by only say 2 or 3 seats in the 2010 election, then they would have likely done a deal with the DUP in Northern Ireland to shore up their governing.
Excluding probably all other mainland UK parties from the process.

I agree with this in particular Joey, politicians are to be held in high regard as figureheads of our communities and work for the public on issues of importance to the UK as a WHOLE.. So when it's found that there are lies, fraud and subterfuge it rocks public confidence in the establishment, that is what we are seeing increasingly now.
They no longer work for us but are all shareholders in 'brand Britain', society has been reduced to disposable 0hr contract lab rats.

[JoshBB]

This is one of multiple anti-Labour threads you've made, do you actually have an issue with them not liking the policy or are you just digging to find reasons to slate them?

[arista]

This is one of multiple anti-Labour threads you've made, do you actually have an issue with them not liking the policy or are you just digging to find reasons to slate them?



This a Major News Story
with or without my views.


Talk on the Topic
not me.

[Tregard]

Scotland should've got out while they could, any additional power they were offered is unlikely to ever show up.

[joeysteele]

The point is the Conservative party cannot and should not be allowed to hijack the promise the PM made with the other 2 main party leaders as to 'if Scotland voted no' more powers would be transferred to Scotland.

He made no mention of linking that to reform of the English question too, that is another issue for another day.
Or does his word mean nothing,just as Nick Clegg's didn't as to tuition fees.

This PM is a disgrace if he insists on this being linked to a 'quick' and badly thought through policy as to the English issue.
Ed Miliband is right to both condemn this and even walk away from it if this PM sets out to move the goalposts and add things to his promise that were never said when they made the promise.
Ed Miliband should then promise that the first action of a Labour Govt. after May 2015, will bring in the promise of the new powers to Scotland and then separately look at the English issue with more time and longer debate to get that right.

For me, were this PM and the Conservative party hijack this and go down this road, that will be, in my view, a gross misleading of the Scottish Nation and pure deceit.
A really big and disgraceful abuse of power.

He should work with the 2 other main party leaders to ensure the new powers promised to Scotland get set up and through, no matter what may happen at the general election.

The English issue needs far more debate and consideration and should also only go ahead with the agreement of all the main party leaders too.
I watch this with great interest.

Is this really going to be a time where we are going to see a UK Prime Minister do a massive turnaround as to a promise made to a whole Country in order to 'sort of bribe' them to vote a certain way in a referendum.
If that is so, then the sooner this 'dangerous for the UK' PM is turfed out of office the better for all.

Two separate issues, the Scottish powers promise and then the English issue,no real debate now needed as to the first of those,just get it done in accordance with the promise made and then followed by a great deal of consultation and debate required for the second.

[Kizzy]

Yes roll on next year to rid us of this infection of parasites in government sucking the life force from the country, as to any powers there will be none... A lot of bluster and hot air, saying we'll do this, this and this and deliver nothing! all the time waiting for the dust to settle.

[joeysteele]

Yes roll on next year to rid us of this infection of parasites in government sucking the life force from the country, as to any powers there will be none... A lot of bluster and hot air, saying we'll do this, this and this and deliver nothing! all the time waiting for the dust to settle.

I tell you what I now think, they are aptly named 'CON'servatives,if he tries to do this he and his party have conned the Scottish voters in this referendum and I would say,in fact everyone else in the UK too.

I really hope for once the media really go to town on him and his party for this.
My contempt for them just gets worse with almost all they do now.

[Kizzy]

Same, it astounds me how they get away with what they do, talk about teflon dave! :/

[arista]

Scotland should've got out while they could, any additional power they were offered is unlikely to ever show up.


No Brown rushed
in Emergency DevoMax
with all 3 leaders signing a new deal
of course its a mess.

But the World is watching


http://i.guim.co.uk/w-860/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/19/1411106626957/9ad2c94e-f1d8-4dba-8ef9-2f5a17c62973-bestSizeAvailable.jpeg

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[arista]

I tell you what I now think, they are aptly named 'CON'servatives,if he tries to do this he and his party have conned the Scottish voters in this referendum and I would say,in fact everyone else in the UK too.

I really hope for once the media really go to town on him and his party for this.
My contempt for them just gets worse with almost all they do now.


No Joey
many Labour MP's back the PM


Its just Worried Ed
who is in another panic.



But look at Scottish Labour
loads jumped to the SNP.

[Kizzy]

Back the PM in the sense that they were in the NO camp, not that they agree with his maniacal proposals for Scottish MPs...

[MTVN]

Yes many Labour MPs do back, most of England does. I don't know if people are misunderstanding but the main argument is purely that Scottish MPs should not vote on issues which exclusively concern England, not ban them altogether

The whole issue was coined by a Labour MP and a Scottish one at that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question

[arista]

Back the PM in the sense that they were in the NO camp, not that they agree with his maniacal proposals for Scottish MPs...


No backing the PM
on his views on Power in England

[arista]

Yes many Labour MPs do back, most of England does. I don't know if people are misunderstanding but the main argument is purely that Scottish MPs should not vote on issues which exclusively concern England, not ban them altogether

The whole issue was coined by a Labour MP and a Scottish one at that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question



Yes that was first view

[Kizzy]

I was aware it was for matters concerning England only, and I say it won't work.

'And the political ramifications would make it unworkable. Imagine that Labour wins the next general election with a small overall majority. Inevitably, that majority will include a large proportion of MPs from Scotland and Wales. Labour would have enough votes to pass legislation on reserved matters affecting the whole of the UK. But if it wanted to reform health provision or education in England, a Labour government would probably not be able to command a majority of English MPs.'

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/sep/19/west-lothian-question-english-votes-laws

[arista]

"I say it won't work. "

Sure but to be fair
we do not know the full new plan.

Ed, this afternoon,
has refused to talk about
English Home Rule
to a reporter,
typical of him.


Ref : SkyNewsHD

[Kizzy]

"I say it won't work. "

Sure but to be fair
we do not know the full new plan.

Ed, this afternoon,
has refused to talk about
English Home Rule
to a reporter,
typical of him.


Ref : SkyNewsHD

Was it fat fararri? I don't blame Ed then, there needs to be debate and consultation... Not rushing about making nonsensical statements like devisive dave.

[arista]

Was it fat fararri? I don't blame him, there needs to be debate and consultation... Not rushing about making nonsensical statements like devisive dave.



No SkyNews Political reporter
John Craig

http://tvnewsroom.org/images/thumbnails/all/jon-craig.jpg

[Kizzy]

No SkyNews Political reporter
John Craig

http://tvnewsroom.org/images/thumbnails/all/jon-craig.jpg

What's the damn rush...It very important, why would he want to be on telly flapping his gums and not meeting his ministers?
That's the problem, we put far to much faith in those who throw out soundbites and not enough in those actually doing what a cabinet is meant to do and debate the issues before putting a solution forward.

[arista]

Ed
should say he will be talking about it in a few days
after the Labour Conf. is done
No refuse to debate it.


I hope Top Political reporter
of Ch4HD News Michael Crick (was at newsnight)
gets to some Labour MPs that are not chicken
for tonights and tomorrows Ch4HD News


http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MrZKliKk-pk/0.jpg
this was Crick getting a Wack on the Head
that went Worldwide

[joeysteele]

I see the point of English matters be decided by English MPs but England has many regions wherein different needs and other issues apply.

Removing say Scottish votes from voting on an English issue,leaves the North west,North and North East likely being dictated to by the 'we are alright jack, you get on with things' attitude from the far South.

I was born in Worcestershire, it is where my Parents home is still, even there I wouldn't want the far South,with most of their extreme thinking MPs, dictating what even the Midlands would have to have as policy.

A good time set for and consulting debate is needed to answer this although I myself would prefer the replacement of Councils for regions with new elected bodies, which would be given devolved powers as to English matters, as Wales and Scotland have as to their needs.

It is bad enough we get a party elected to govt. that has virtually no representation in Scotland, no MPs in major cities such as Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle just to name 3,that will then be having the whole of England as to English matters relying on the votes of those extreme and affluent MPs from the far South as a majority.

Regionally devolved power yes,I would go for that.
A South led enforced talking shop as to England,definitely no thank you at all as to that one and it should have nothiong whatsoever to do with the promise of more powers being transferred now to Scotland.
No linking of the 2 as they are separate issues and a great deal more of debate and consultation is needed to make the right decision as to such an important issue.
Not some wild plan hustled together in a hurry to please some MPs,no matter what party they come from.

Give the South East region a devolved power base,South west too, then extend that over the other regions of England but no more exaggerrated power for the far South of England and them dictating to the rest of the England and the UK.

Not for me at all that one.

I am sure most MP's feel the need for change from all parties but this half baked idea needs a great deal more consideration and other things looked at as to sorting this issue out too.

[joeysteele]

"I say it won't work. "

Sure but to be fair
we do not know the full new plan.

Ed, this afternoon,
has refused to talk about
English Home Rule
to a reporter,
typical of him.


Ref : SkyNewsHD

Well Cameron has just brought it up again now in an attempt to hijack the promise made to Scots voters by linking it with these suggestions.
However I didn't hear him say a single thing as to that in all his speeches in Scotland or when he signed up to that promise either

had he done so, the 'no' vote may well have been a resounding 'yes'.
He stated he would have been heartbroken had Scotland left the UK,because he would have likely lost his job had they done so.

Now he has 'used' them to get a no vote, his arrogance comes back fuelled by the more extreme element sof his party.

It isn't something that should be set up or planned by any one party, this should be a concensus issue where all the main parties need to agree to,
not just him and his party.
Maybe he should ask the voters first in another referendum what they want as he is now so keen on referenda rather than push ahead with another bad judgement as to a policy.

Miliband is right not to talk about it, he will probably spell out his ideas over the coming week,when people can see and hear what he says, rather than have what he says twisted by the pathetic media we have in the UK.

[arista]

"Miliband is right not to talk about it"


He is a fool if he thinks kicking into into long grass
until after the election.

Labour MP's have come out to speak on
Englands Home Rule today
as they know the voters want it now
not when Ed says so.

Ref: BBCNews

[smudgie]

Not exactly rocket science, the English should have the same rights as the Welsh, Northern Irish and the Scottish.
No more and no less.

[arista]

Not exactly rocket science, the English should have the same rights as the Welsh, Northern Irish and the Scottish.
No more and no less.


Bang On Right

[Kizzy]

Ed
should say he will be talking about it in a few days
after the Labour Conf. is done
No refuse to debate it.


I hope Top Political reporter
of Ch4HD News Michael Crick (was at newsnight)
gets to some Labour MPs that are not chicken
for tonights and tomorrows Ch4HD News


http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MrZKliKk-pk/0.jpg
this was Crick getting a Wack on the Head
that went Worldwide

He doesn't have to do anything, he's not a performing seal at the beck and call of the media...

[joeysteele]

England should have rights too, although for decades the overwhelming majority of English MPs have dictated policies for the whole of the UK in the main.

I am happy for England to get a say in some issues affecting England, by only English representations as to same too but by devolved power to regions in England.

The best way forward is to consult and debate and then plan between all the main parties.
That should all be done as a separate issue and make sure the eventual policy is fair and right and more to the point will work too, for the good of ALL England, not just the far South of it.

Right now howver,it is the promise made to the Scots that upon voting 'no' they would get further devolved powers,to be set up right after the referendum.
nothing should be taken away and nothing should be added, just fulfil that promise first then move on later to the future planning of English issues for England only.

However for me, if we are ordering the election of MPs from Scotland and Wales on a political Party basis to Westminster then all should be equal and anything presented at that Westminster parliament must be open to all elected MPs by the people to vote on same.
Anything done in haste is likely not to be the best way forward as to anything, this issue of only England issues and how they are voted for,needs careful planning,not just shoved through on a whim.

It will and has to happen and I am sure all the main parties want it to but I hope it is a devolved power set up,not a selective process of voting at Westminster's parliament, which is the Parliament for the whole of the UK,not just part of it.

Also would I,as a voter, now trust the Conservatives to get it right on their own, no not a chance,not after the mess and disarray of a lot of their planning over the last 4 and a half years.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/9/20/337139/default/v1/the-mail-on-sunday-1-329x437.jpg

[joeysteele]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/9/20/337139/default/v1/the-mail-on-sunday-1-329x437.jpg

That is rather rich coming from David Cameron now,it's alright however for this incompetent and deceitful PM to have conned and sold out Scotland and used it for another purpose.
This would actually mean under this plan,that it would be folly to choose a Scottish leader of one of the main parties, as under this system, he or she could not vote as to parts of it's main policies.

What a farce,what discrimination too, really Alex Salmond has resigned too early for me,over the coming months he could have great legitimate protests as to this issue now.

This however from a party that would have the DUP from Northern Ireland well and truly as part of its Govt. had they been nearer an overall majority.
Total and utter hypocrisy.

[Kizzy]

Oh for gods sake.... here we go again :(

Whip up 'national pride' against Labour and the Scottish, what a snake he is grrrr!
What was Alex Salmon thinking though? Some will think he's just slunk off with his tail between his legs. Was all that really for the benefit of Scotland ...or a ploy to line the pockets of the SNP the way the tories do here?

[joeysteele]

Well I am happy to learn today that 10 Downing Street has stated that the issue of the new powers for Scotland and the issue of the English for the English affair are 'not now' conditional as to each other.
That is different from what this hapless PM inferred in his speech after the referendum.

I still do not want the Westminster parliament,minus the Scots,Welsh and Irish MPs to have all the say for the whole of England,that I hope never comes.
I prefer the devolvement of power to English regions plan which Ed Miliband seems to have in mind.
I hope it is looked into carefully with all choices open.

Then if there is more than one choice seeming the logical way, or there is little chance of all main party leaders agreeing to one,then I would like to see the English voters asked in a referendum.
Do they want all of Englands policies decided by only English Elected MPs at Westminster or would they prefer devolved powers to regions across England with new elected institutions as Scotland, Wales and N Ireland have.

It has to be changed,I wholly agree with that but I agree with Ed Miliband, not with things worked out on the back of an envelope or on a ciggie packet.
I got a smile at that one.

Really, I don't know who writes David Cameron's speeches or really advises him but they really need to make sure he 'says what he means' when he says it.
Instead of off the cuff controversial statements that later need a wealth of explaining afterwards just to get back to him then doing even possibly the right thing in the end.