Meaning of life

[Jules2]

Did you just claim that the people who die of disease and starvation chose to put themselves in that position in a past life?

This is where belief becomes a bit dangerous in my eyes, when we start writing off atrocities as 'meant to be'.

No I never claim anything tbh as we do not know but if we look into different thoughts and views this is just a theory of many. How do we explain it all though, why should some suffer and others do not? As I have said my mind is ever open, I do not come down on any one theory but consider all, looking for the logic of the whys and wherefores. It is such an interesting subject but I doubt whether we will truly know the answers. It is only one answer amongst many.

[Crimson Dynamo]

:laugh: not sure if anyone is serious or not here now, I was quite enjoying the difference of opinions but it is a lot to go into tbh. My explanation is only one amongst many but it may explain why some suffer and others do not. I tend to look upon the spiritual side as the true essence of life.

What do you mean by spiritual

?

[Jules2]

What do you mean by spiritual

?

I believe that we are all spiritual beings held down on this planet by a vehicle which we term our body. We are basically free. If we can sit outside of all the troubles and strife we can be of assistance in the healing of the planet and each other. If we allow ourselves to go into the trouble then we are held down by the negativity of all things. It is a hard thing to do though tbh as the overall suffering is great.

There is a theory that it is the planet itself which we are meant to uplift but we have to get rid of all the dross which is holding it down and not allowing it to take its rightful place in the universe.

Once again I am only really generalising as we do not really know. We only know how we feel inside.

[kirklancaster]

Because nobody is claiming that nature is omnipotent, omnibenevolant and omniscient.

Blaming the devil for pestilence and disease is pretty hilarious tbh. Blaming a woman for listening to a talking snake for all mankind's woe's today is like something out of a fantasy book.

I've already stated that I don't know all the answers Kyle, and I'm not an orthodox Christian, nor a Bible Basher, but I'm pretty sure that not every word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally - despite what some more 'devout' religious extremists might claim.

I believe that the Genesis story of Adam and Eve is just a beautiful allegory. What hidden messages are in this allegory? I don't know. I have my own personal theory of just what The Garden of Eden and The Tree of The Knowledge of Good And Evil was, just as I have my own personal theory on The Tower of Babel, 'Noah's Ark, and The Ark of The Covenant, and here, my beliefs cross over from strict Biblical adherence, to elements of other religions and philosophies. There simply is not the space nor time here to expound on such a vast and complex array of subjects.

As far as the Devil goes, I'm afraid it's impossible to even mention the concept of Evil as a genuine force by using the popular name for its 'fountain-head', without instantly devaluing the validity of that concept, because of the ridiculous imagery of 'horned' entities with tridents and all the other 'learnt' medieval clap trap associated with it via popular culture -- none more so than the Devil portrayed as a serpent.

Yet, real, pure Evil does exist. And I am simply maintaining that to someone who believes in a supernatural force viz. God, then it is illogical to attribute acts of murder etc. to that force when there is a very real force at work called Evil.

In the case of natural disasters, I stand by my statement that it is totally illogical for some men (and I did not say all men) who cling to the tenet that there is nothing which exists but the Laws of Nature, to then blame a supernatural force viz God, as either the Cause of a natural disaster, or to blame God for allowing a natural disaster to happen.

In answer to God being omnipotent, omnibenevolant and omniscient but doing nothing, I've already said that I don't have all the answers- I know that there is in the Bible scripture an explanation for this, and I think it's in Luke, but as I've also said, I'm not a Bible Basher so I can't remember.

In my opinion, the Creation story in Genesis is also allegorical, but it could be factual and still not conflict with science. Just for example, accept the premise that there is a God, a supreme being, no matter how you envisage him, isn't it arrogant to assume that an eternal force measures time at all, let alone in days of the week. Isn't the Creation story early man's attempts to explain the creation of the cosmos and life in language that is universally understood by other men? --

-- Imagine, you could communicate with an adult Mayfly, and he was your pet. He says to you; "I'm dying of thirst". You say; "I'll nip to the shop and get you some Mayfly Pop, I'll not be long.". Off you toddle to the shop and return in 30 minutes, the chance is your pet is dead - not through thirst, but extreme old age, because an adult Mayfly's entire lifespan can be as short as 30 minutes. What was an eternity for him was but a very brief time to you.

Isn't it feasible to those who say God doesn't exist or that he is an 'absentee landlord' that we just cannot comprehend what eternal really means, and our entire history could be nothing more than a nano second to a supreme being?

[kirklancaster]

:laugh: not sure if anyone is serious or not here now, I was quite enjoying the difference of opinions but it is a lot to go into tbh. My explanation is only one amongst many but it may explain why some suffer and others do not. I tend to look upon the spiritual side as the true essence of life.

I'm always serious on serious subjects Jules, and I've enjoyed reading your posts. I am aware of Astral Travelling, Reincarnation and other elements you have touched on, am interested in them, and urge you to keep posting.

I've learnt new things on here from other forum members and have followed them up, then researched even more. It's even changed my mind about some things - not my faith - but subjects such as poor little Maddie Mcann's disappearance.

Keep posting Jules. :thumbs::wavey:

[Kizzy]

I'm loving the Sitchin reference, been watching BBC4 and the ancient civilisation series all across the globe they focused on the moon and the sun to be worshiped rather than named deities, that sits well with me.
The addition of winged beings cannot be denied though and this was also a worldwide phenomenon... this has never been fully explained in any great detail and I feel that there is more to some aspects of the bible 'the watchers' for instance.
It sounds a bit x files but I have to say it would make sense that the ancient peoples had help in forming what look like huge watchtowers.

[rubymoo]

:laugh: not sure if anyone is serious or not here now, I was quite enjoying the difference of opinions but it is a lot to go into tbh. My explanation is only one amongst many but it may explain why some suffer and others do not. I tend to look upon the spiritual side as the true essence of life.

I've been serious in my posts Jules, and i think we may think along the same lines:smug: i believe there is an answer to all the suffering and it is indeed about humanity and spiritual growth, i know why my life has been, and is the way it is because of my past life, i was walking my dogs and was asking the universe "why is my life like this?" (i'd been asking that question a lot!) and i then received what i can only describe as an instant download, i was having a conversation with my spirit family and i knew how i'd been in a past life, so i wanted to experience my selfish past in this life, and do you know what....it made sense, i understand why my life is like this and the revelation helped me to love my dad unconditionally (my dad can only be described as a b*****d) but that doesn't matter, because i understand it was for spiritual growth, i know some posters are going to think this is a load of s**t, but i know the truth......my truth.

[Jules2]

I'm always serious on serious subjects Jules, and I've enjoyed reading your posts. I am aware of Astral Travelling, Reincarnation and other elements you have touched on, am interested in them, and urge you to keep posting.

I've learnt new things on here from other forum members and have followed them up, then researched even more. It's even changed my mind about some things - not my faith - but subjects such as poor little Maddie Mcann's disappearance.

Keep posting Jules. :thumbs::wavey:

Aw thanks Kirk, I love a serious but lighthearted debate. I say lighthearted because we all have our own views and it is to easy to offend another.

With the Astral Travelling it is possible to go back into the past, indeed I had one beautiful experience where I came back with the possible understanding that the past, present and future are all one, we are just existing on a dimensional field.

With my own views I tend to give a little and take in the response as they can be very controversial and I think that a lot of people are afraid to say exactly how they are feeling for fear of being ridiculed. :cheer2:

[Jules2]

I've been serious in my posts Jules, and i think we may think along the same lines:smug: i believe there is an answer to all the suffering and it is indeed about humanity and spiritual growth, i know why my life has been, and is the way it is because of my past life, i was walking my dogs and was asking the universe "why is my life like this?" (i'd been asking that question a lot!) and i then received what i can only describe as an instant download, i was having a conversation with my spirit family and i knew how i'd been in a past life, so i wanted to experience my selfish past in this life, and do you know what....it made sense, i understand why my life is like this and the revelation helped me to love my dad unconditionally (my dad can only be described as a b*****d) but that doesn't matter, because i understand it was for spiritual growth, i know some posters are going to think this is a load of s**t, but i know the truth......my truth.

Ah Ruby I know you are serious, I said as much to two of your posts. We are on the same wavelength, this is the beauty of debate, we learn from one another as Kirk said.

I used to be well into meditation, at the moment I am a bit grounded because of family illnesses. I used to go pretty deep and followed Jose Silvas theories of levelling up the brain. One time I came back with an answer, I had asked to be taken to the centre of Truth I was given:-

T. R. U. T. H. Now as we can see the centre is U, you are the truth, we are all our own truths. Logical eh!! It made me understand that we have the answers within, we only have to seek to find and to our own selves be kind.

Another one is Church, the centre is U R we have our own answers. We can listen to others but we still have to work it out for ourselves as you have done. Take care love. :wavey:

[kirklancaster]

Ah Ruby I know you are serious, I said as much to two of your posts. We are on the same wavelength, this is the beauty of debate, we learn from one another as Kirk said.

I used to be well into meditation, at the moment I am a bit grounded because of family illnesses. I used to go pretty deep and followed Jose Silvas theories of levelling up the brain. One time I came back with an answer, I had asked to be taken to the centre of Truth I was given:-

T. R. U. T. H. Now as we can see the centre is U, you are the truth, we are all our own truths. Logical eh!! It made me understand that we have the answers within, we only have to seek to find and to our own selves be kind.

Another one is Church, the centre is U R we have our own answers. We can listen to others but we still have to work it out for ourselves as you have done. Take care love. :wavey:

You've just done a Gary Busey there Jules. :wavey:

[Jules2]

I'm loving the Sitchin reference, been watching BBC4 and the ancient civilisation series all across the globe they focused on the moon and the sun to be worshiped rather than named deities, that sits well with me.
The addition of winged beings cannot be denied though and this was also a worldwide phenomenon... this has never been fully explained in any great detail and I feel that there is more to some aspects of the bible 'the watchers' for instance.
It sounds a bit x files but I have to say it would make sense that the ancient peoples had help in forming what look like huge watchtowers.

Hi Kizzy, have you read Sitchin's books at all? I am interested in the theory that aliens had a hand in producing the human race. It is a long old story but it covers the lost link. To me it also makes sense that in the beginning there was evolution through the big bang or whatever but then along came creation as man was formed through the presence of these beings. The two things which have caused so many debates.

Such a lot of theories eh!! The trouble is many believe each theory so nothing can really be denied if one has an open mind. The mind is like a computer, we are able to store things in different compartments and then call upon them when we need to.

[Jules2]

You've just done a Gary Busey there Jules. :wavey:

I know Kirk, there is quite a lot we can look into, I was very impressed with his isms.

[Kizzy]

Hi Kizzy, have you read Sitchin's books at all? I am interested in the theory that aliens had a hand in producing the human race. It is a long old story but it covers the lost link. To me it also makes sense that in the beginning there was evolution through the big bang or whatever but then along came creation as man was formed through the presence of these beings. The two things which have caused so many debates.

Such a lot of theories eh!! The trouble is many believe each theory so nothing can really be denied if one has an open mind. The mind is like a computer, we are able to store things in different compartments and then call upon them when we need to.

Yes, I have Genesis Revisited and another which I lent to my brother and he hasn't yet returned ... mmm, just remembered that haha.
I'm not a creationist by any stretch of the imagination, having said that there are too many ancient coincidences across the globe and hopefully the puzzle pieces will one day fit and reveal how we all came to be.
One theory of mine is there are different 'species' of human, some very tall some tiny, and it's these primeval differences that keep us warring.
Let's just hope that 'Eureka!' moment comes soon and we can all recognise and celebrate our differences as well as our shared past and live peacefully.

[Rob!]

Simple fact of the matter is that we won't know until our current life is over. Or maybe we won't and our lives will simply start again. Personally I'd rather that. I hate the idea that once we're gone, we just cease to exist. Somehow, be it science or through some other celestial being, life was created to the level it is today.
Yeah, we learn..but why? We only learn what we subconsciously believe to be worth holding on to.

[Jules2]

For myself I find that I need to look at a greater story, if we think about it all words are man made, please question me if you feel I am wrong. Bearing this in mind we can see where the divisions come into play.

We talk about faith, what is faith, to some it is dogmatic religion, but that is still the words of other people? As I consider the spiritual (spirit) the real member of the cast, anything which uplifts is ok. I am all for the positive side of life but because I live on the mortal coil I feel we have to look into the whys and wherefores of how people are misled into believing that theirs is the only way. Have they been milked into that thought, can we/they begin to think for ourselves/themselves? Why do many fight and kill.

It is said that in the beginning there was the word, what was the word? What is the meaning of that word? Indeed do we know, have we been told?

Now faith is a great word, it can uplift the inner self but it also can be the use of many things. If we have faith in a supposed "god" other than the one who says "thou shalt have no other "god" than me", if that faith uplifts the soul then to me it is a good thing for it allows progression.

Take an illness, faith...it will get better.....now with this attitude there is every reason to think that it will uplift. It gives us the faith to go on and to be able to accept the final outcome. If someone decries that faith then we go down, thus introducing negative thoughts into our being and allowing depression to take hold. Not good for there is only one way...down...it is then hard to go up. Although it is said that when we go down we go up further but positive thought is the greater thing.

We know that we should never decry anyones faith no matter what that faith is because for me, it is the spiritual aspect which is the main thing.

Faith is a great word:- For All Individuals To Heal:

From the depth of darkness there shone a light,
A tiny spark but oh so bright.
The darkness changed itself to day,
The light had come to show the way.

xx

[Crimson Dynamo]

Simple fact of the matter is that we won't know until our current life is over. Or maybe we won't and our lives will simply start again. Personally I'd rather that. I hate the idea that once we're gone, we just cease to exist. Somehow, be it science or through some other celestial being, life was created to the level it is today.
Yeah, we learn..but why? We only learn what we subconsciously believe to be worth holding on to.

but you are perfectly happy that before you were born there was 13 billion years of nothing, of non-existence?

[Creggle]

There is no god, only mankind and the choices it makes.

[Jules2]

There is no god, only mankind and the choices it makes.

Possibly the original energy was taken and split into fractions because of man. The energy outside of all things is still with us if we stand outside of the negativity. :wavey:

[arista]

There is no god, only mankind and the choices it makes.


Bang On Right

[Jules2]

There is no god, only mankind and the choices it makes.

Do you believe in an afterlife though Creggle? :think: :wavey:

[Jules2]

I don't have a salad Jules I'm more of a carnivore :wink:

But I'll give you a word burger.

I have no reason to believe in a God/Gods. I don't believe in anything. Until there is a scientific consensus that we came about as a result of intelligent design from a creator who basically can't be arsed with us anymore then I'm afraid I am going to have to put my trust that humanity's greatest minds will push the boundaries of science in search of our answers, as they always do. This is our greatest hour.

No agenda, no dogma, no confirmation bias, no control, no self-appointed hierarchy of order. Just the simple search for truth.

So therefore you have an open mind? This is what I think tbh, I love putting theories forward though for anyone to mull over. I am not bogged down at all. I do believe though that science and the ever powers of life are more in tune these days than in others. Thanks for replying. :wavey: Hey I am not keen on burgers neither....:laugh:

[Kyle]

So therefore you have an open mind? This is what I think tbh, I love putting theories forward though for anyone to mull over. I am not bogged down at all. I do believe though that science and the ever powers of life are more in tune these days than in others. Thanks for replying. :wavey: Hey I am not keen on burgers neither....:laugh:

No worries Jules. It's certainly an interesting topic nonetheless. There is so much out there yet to be discovered.

I'm interested in the idea of panspermia in particular now. I was listening to an astronomy podcast the other day and they were talking about bacteria that could survive the vacuum of space and what if it was a meteor that struck the earth all those years ago and 'seeded' the planet with biological material.

[kirklancaster]

I don't have a salad Jules I'm more of a carnivore :wink:

But I'll give you a word burger.

I have no reason to believe in a God/Gods. I don't believe in anything. Until there is a scientific consensus that we came about as a result of intelligent design from a creator who basically can't be arsed with us anymore then I'm afraid I am going to have to put my trust that humanity's greatest minds will push the boundaries of science in search of our answers, as they always do. This is our greatest hour.

No agenda, no dogma, no confirmation bias, no control, no self-appointed hierarchy of order. Just the simple search for truth.

A good post Kyle with valid points and I'm glad you still have an 'open' mind even though you are firm in your beliefs. Like Jules, I'm looking forward to intelligent, adult, and cordial debates. I enjoy (cyber?) talking to people no matter if their beliefs are diametrically opposed to mine, as long as it's civil discussion. I'm not to old to learn from others, and hope the opposite is true. :thumbs:

[Kyle]

A good post Kyle with valid points and I'm glad you still have an 'open' mind even though you are firm in your beliefs. Like Jules, I'm looking forward to intelligent, adult, and cordial debates. I enjoy (cyber?) talking to people no matter if their beliefs are diametrically opposed to mine, as long as it's civil discussion. I'm not to old to learn from others, and hope the opposite is true. :thumbs:

If we are staunch and stubborn in our beliefs and not open to other ideas if they work for us then we are as good as dead in my eyes.

[Jules2]

No worries Jules. It's certainly an interesting topic nonetheless. There is so much out there yet to be discovered.

I'm interested in the idea of panspermia in particular now. I was listening to an astronomy podcast the other day and they were talking about bacteria that could survive the vacuum of space and what if it was a meteor that struck the earth all those years ago and 'seeded' the planet with biological material.

Ah Kyle to me that is a very plausible thought one which I have been very interested in. I have written about different theories, ones which have popped into my mind and which I have taken great pleasure in putting on paper. I just love theorising.

[Kyle]

Ah Kyle to me that is a very plausible thought one which I have been very interested in. I have written about different theories, ones which have popped into my mind and which I have taken great pleasure in putting on paper. I just love theorising.

Care to share a few when you have time?

[Jules2]

Care to share a few when you have time?

Would love to really but I do get carried away as LT said, they tend to run into storylines I then feel a bit guilty. I thoroughly enjoy everyones banter though and know that we each have part of the truth, sometimes our truths are the same but said in different ways. I find that words uplift me but understand that they are only my own feelings and I fully expect others to challenge me with their ideas.

As Kirk says, we are never to old to learn from each other, it is of great interest to me, to hear of other peoples experiences and thoughts. :wavey:

[Kyle]

Would love to really but I do get carried away as LT said, they tend to run into storylines I then feel a bit guilty. I thoroughly enjoy everyones banter though and know that we each have part of the truth, sometimes our truths are the same but said in different ways. I find that words uplift me but understand that they are only my own feelings and I fully expect others to challenge me with their ideas.

As Kirk says, we are never to old to learn from each other, it is of great interest to me, to hear of other peoples experiences and thoughts. :wavey:

Me and LT kid around I think it would be great to hear it if you ever felt like sharing it. The creative writing section would be a good place if you didn't feel comfortable putting it here maybe. Anyway it's up to you Jules I know I would be interested and probably Captain Kirk too :spin:

[Jules2]

but you are perfectly happy that before you were born there was 13 billion years of nothing, of non-existence?

So take us back to the very beginning LT.......have you ever thought about it? :wavey:

[Jules2]

Me and LT kid around I think it would be great to hear it if you ever felt like sharing it. The creative writing section would be a good place if you didn't feel comfortable putting it here maybe. Anyway it's up to you Jules I know I would be interested and probably Captain Kirk too :spin:

I have gathered that you both love kidding around :laugh:, I do like this forum though and it is great that we can all have a laugh amongst the serious side as well. A laugh a day keeps the doctor away.

I may have a look at the creative writing section, have never thought of it before, have you or anyone else written in there at all?

My writings seems to take into account the different change of thought over the years. At one time I was dead set on an idea but gradually it altered, I guess this is all in the art of learning and understanding more as we advance within our own pathways.

[Kyle]

I have gathered that you both love kidding around :laugh:, I do like this forum though and it is great that we can all have a laugh amongst the serious side as well. A laugh a day keeps the doctor away.

I may have a look at the creative writing section, have never thought of it before, have you or anyone else written in there at all?

My writings seems to take into account the different change of thought over the years. At one time I was dead set on an idea but gradually it altered, I guess this is all in the art of learning and understanding more as we advance within our own pathways.

It's not an area that sees a lot of traffic but if something takes my fancy I'll read it. It was just a thought maybe in case you didn't wanna put it on serious debates.

[kirklancaster]

Now now boys, the meaning of life is 'be excellent to each other' it's the gospel accordint to St Bill and St Ted :laugh:

Another perfect example of synchronicity:

I had just finished a game of 'Battleship' with a friend whose nickname is 'Death' (because of her white Goth style) and I was walking past a four story furniture shop when I heard a load of shouting coming from the second floor. I stopped dead and a Cash Register came hurtling through a second story window in a shower of glass, followed by a divan. An hysterical woman popped her head out of the window as these were falling and shouted at me to grab them. I ignored her, walked on, and just shouted back as they hit the pavement -- "Catch you later Till and Bed". :hehe::hehe:

This is a Joke.

[Jules2]

It's not an area that sees a lot of traffic but if something takes my fancy I'll read it. It was just a thought maybe in case you didn't wanna put it on serious debates.

Hi Kyle, if you have time and are interested have a look at my blog, I havent written into it for a few years now but I enjoyed it when I did. There are a couple of my instant theorising in there, it was just things which came into my mind, once I began I continued. I was doing well with onlookers from different parts of the world, as it was new to me I was quite impressed at how it worked.

It was a new venture but sadly everyday life takes over and I havent found the time to go back. We have had a lot of serious illnesses in our famiy but we always come out of it and then we keep our fingers and toes crossed lol. This is why I believe in positive thought and not allowing ourselves to go down.

Not sure if the link will work but here it is, I wont be offended at all if you do not have a look or if you have alternative views to mine, that is what it is all about.

juliaabdey@gmail.com

[Jules2]

Hi Kyle, if you have time and are interested have a look at my blog, I havent written into it for a few years now but I enjoyed it when I did. There are a couple of my instant theorising in there, it was just things which came into my mind, once I began I continued. I was doing well with onlookers from different parts of the world, as it was new to me I was quite impressed at how it worked.

It was a new venture but sadly everyday life takes over and I havent found the time to go back. We have had a lot of serious illnesses in our famiy but we always come out of it and then we keep our fingers and toes crossed lol. This is why I believe in positive thought and not allowing ourselves to go down.

Not sure if the link will work but here it is, I wont be offended at all if you do not have a look or if you have alternative views to mine, that is what it is all about.

juliaabdey@gmail.com

Have tried the link and I do not think it works, will have to look again.

[Jules2]

It is a long time since I have been into my blog, I do not think the above will work but I have managed to get back in through typing:-

http://julesabdey.blogspot.co.uk

If you would like to have a look you need to begin at "our innermost thoughts" otherwise you begin at the last entry which was taken over by me having a bit of fun with Reuben's the Royal. My theory was to have serious and light and to try and make it less boring because things do get deep.

[Kyle]

Brilliant jules thankyou.

[Jules2]

Brilliant jules thankyou.

You are welcome......

[Jules2]

No worries Jules. It's certainly an interesting topic nonetheless. There is so much out there yet to be discovered.

I'm interested in the idea of panspermia in particular now. I was listening to an astronomy podcast the other day and they were talking about bacteria that could survive the vacuum of space and what if it was a meteor that struck the earth all those years ago and 'seeded' the planet with biological material.

Morning Kyle and all, well I have to admit that I had never heard of the word panspermia so I had a look on google. Plenty of info there so I have bookmarked it to go back into later on today.

You know this is the beauty of communication if one is interested in a subject no matter what, one word can lead us onto another interesting track.

Many a time in the past I have had a thought and then something appears to confirm my thought, have you ever just opened a page in a book and found an answer...."just like that"! That little voice which dwells within can help us free ourselves from sin. Mind you what is sin........no, no, no that is another subject......:nono::hehe:

[Livia]

I'm sure it's different for everyone. For me, the best explanation I can offer is, only once you find something you're willing to die for can you truly begin to live.

[Kyle]

Morning Kyle, well I have to admit that I had never heard of the word panspermia so I had a look on google. Plenty of info there so I have bookmarked it to go back into later on today.

You know this is the beauty of communication if one is interested in a subject no matter what, one word can lead us onto another interesting track.

Many a time in the past I have had a thought and then something appears to confirm my thought, have you ever just opened a page in a book and found an answer...."just like that"! That little voice which dwells within can help us free ourselves from sin. Mind you what is sin........no, no, no that is another subject......:nono::hehe:

Certainly another topic indeed. :laugh:

One thing I wonder is what direction our species will take when/if we discover life on other planets or star systems. What would life be like for them? Is there a connection between life on earth and life elsewhere in the galaxy. And if we actually discover or are found by a spacefaring intelligent species then imagine all the possibilities for learning our origins.

Though Steven Hawking warns that it is not wise to broadcast our existence to other sentient beings across the galaxy (and in many ways I would be inclined to agree) the sheer curiosity that I feel needs to be sated by discovering we are not alone in the galaxy is just too much to pass on and I hope I'm alive to see this fulfilled.

[Kyle]

I'm sure it's different for everyone. For me, the best explanation I can offer is, only once you find something you're willing to die for can you truly begin to live.

Livia can I ask you a personal question?

[Livia]

Livia can I ask you a personal question?

I'm not sending you naked pictures, Kyle, stop asking me.

Yes, ask away...

[Kyle]

I'm not sending you naked pictures, Kyle, stop asking me.

Yes, ask away...

Lol jeez Livia I got it the third time you told me to ******* off who do u think I am?!


Basically yeh I don't wanna hash up the event in question but I think you know what event I'm on about. When that event happened did you find yourself questioning your faith and outlook on life at all or did your faith give you a little bit of solace?

[Livia]

Lol jeez Livia I got it the third time you told me to ******* off who do u think I am?!


Basically yeh I don't wanna hash up the event in question but I think you know what event I'm on about. When that event happened did you find yourself questioning your faith and outlook on life at all or did your faith give you a little bit of solace?

Well, I didn't blame God because I don't believe God has control over everything that happens in this world, over everything that man does. I think if we held God responsible for everything that's happened to our people over the last 5000 years I'm guessing there would be no Jews. Man has free will and acts in evil ways sometimes. I blamed the person who set the device that injured him. I believe categorically that the person responsible will have to account for himself.

[Kyle]

Well, I didn't blame God because I don't believe God has control over everything that happens in this world, over everything that man does. I think if we held God responsible for everything that's happened to our people over the last 5000 years I'm guessing there would be no Jews. Man has free will and acts in evil ways sometimes. I blamed the person who set the device that injured him. I believe categorically that the person responsible will have to account for himself.

Thank you Livia, I hope I didn't re-open any old wounds. :love:

[Livia]

Thank you Livia, I hope I didn't re-open any old wounds. :love:

No, not at all, Kyle. It was an interesting question.

[Jules2]

Another perfect example of synchronicity:

I had just finished a game of 'Battleship' with a friend whose nickname is 'Death' (because of her white Goth style) and I was walking past a four story furniture shop when I heard a load of shouting coming from the second floor. I stopped dead and a Cash Register came hurtling through a second story window in a shower of glass, followed by a divan. An hysterical woman popped her head out of the window as these were falling and shouted at me to grab them. I ignored her, walked on, and just shouted back as they hit the pavement -- "Catch you later Till and Bed". :hehe::hehe:

This is a Joke.

:hehe::hehe: Hi Kirk, talking about synchronicity, would I be correct in using it in the following examples?

Many moons ago when I was deeply involved in meditation and alike, I had an experience whereby I was told that "death" would be at my door. Now I didnt worry because I think if one seeks and then finds one has to sieve the findings out. Death only means change in any case. Well within the next day I had a phone call from a Mrs. De`ath. Well that solved that problem. :cheer2:

In another one, I was told to watch my footwear. Didnt take any notice of it but the next day I visited a friend and fell nearly flat on my face through the sandal and as I walked down her steps. Ouch, I should have listened...:laugh:

[Jules2]

Certainly another topic indeed. :laugh:

One thing I wonder is what direction our species will take when/if we discover life on other planets or star systems. What would life be like for them? Is there a connection between life on earth and life elsewhere in the galaxy. And if we actually discover or are found by a spacefaring intelligent species then imagine all the possibilities for learning our origins.

Though Steven Hawking warns that it is not wise to broadcast our existence to other sentient beings across the galaxy (and in many ways I would be inclined to agree) the sheer curiosity that I feel needs to be sated by discovering we are not alone in the galaxy is just too much to pass on and I hope I'm alive to see this fulfilled.

I definitely feel that we are not alone in the galaxy Kyle, many would say that they have been on spaceships. I could go further into this but it is such an extreme thought that some may find it worrying. I wonder if the earth was under threat, how would man deal with it, would we unite all over the earth or would we fight for dominance over another being? Would fear make us fight for our own protection or would we be able to talk on a level of understanding?
No matter what though, we would still have to consider where did the aliens originate from?

Sitchins books cover a lot of things which for me are food for thought.

Many think that the soul goes back to energy, others think that the soul just goes on in the same vein on another dimension. I wonder if it is within our own being which determines our afterlife. Many think that the soul visits other dimensions whilst in our present body/astral travel but also when we leave this vehicle behind permanently. It is possibly a gradual process but I do feel that all will be united from this plane and also from others. Then we will possibly travel on to something far greater? The mind boggles eh!

[Jules2]

I'm sure it's different for everyone. For me, the best explanation I can offer is, only once you find something you're willing to die for can you truly begin to live.

That is lovely Livia, the true concept of love.

[Kizzy]

Further to that if you feel strongly enough to die for something or someone then would it not follow that you could kill too?
Many people across the globe are fighting and they ave all been told the same things by their respective superiors.. that what they are doing is for the greater good, for freedom, for their religion or country. All these young men fighting for what they believe is the meaning of life for them, to protect and serve their cause?

[Jules2]

Further to that if you feel strongly enough to die for something or someone then would it not follow that you could kill too?
Many people across the globe are fighting and they ave all been told the same things by their respective superiors.. that what they are doing is for the greater good, for freedom, for their religion or country. All these young men fighting for what they believe is the meaning of life for them, to protect and serve their cause?

Ah Kizzy on a far greater level you are correct. I took it though that in this instance the word "die" was just a lighthearted expression of love. I guess Livia will know which way she meant it.

I have written a piece about such a thing in my blog, it involves the nuns who were killed many years ago and the loss of a young lad fighting for his country/beliefs. So many young lives indoctrined for the sake of religion and their ancestors training.

I think if it came down to it we would protect our own within our own surroundings, mind you by todays laws we would be the ones who suffered the penalities of standing up for our rights.

[Livia]

Ah Kizzy on a far greater level you are correct. I took it though that in this instance the word "die" was just a lighthearted expression of love. I guess Livia will know which way she meant it.

I have written a piece about such a thing in my blog, it involves the nuns who were killed many years ago and the loss of a young lad fighting for his country/beliefs. So many young lives indoctrined for the sake of religion and their ancestors training.

I think if it came down to it we would protect our own within our own surroundings, mind you by todays laws we would be the ones who suffered the penalities of standing up for our rights.

I meant exactly what I said.

[Ninastar]

oh livia... :love: :hug:

[Jules2]

Further to that if you feel strongly enough to die for something or someone then would it not follow that you could kill too?
Many people across the globe are fighting and they ave all been told the same things by their respective superiors.. that what they are doing is for the greater good, for freedom, for their religion or country. All these young men fighting for what they believe is the meaning of life for them, to protect and serve their cause?

This is part of the piece I wrote about when the nuns were killed, it was a sad programme and brought tears to my eyes:-

...................................
Many of us wonder whose side God is on, that is if one believes in God, because on the other hand after Jeannie's murder we had the little boy from El Salvador saying, his soul distraught as he spoke of the guns and the fear he should wrought..

"It is not your country it is not your land,
These are my beloveds I will take their hand
And lead them to safety from the cruelty of living
So don't talk of forgiving as you think of your loved ones
Happy and safe in peaceful surroundings away from strife".

For they raped his country, his ideals, his friends
And he wondered when the plundering would end.
Little soul they shot him and as he sank to the ground
He hoped that in oblivion peace would be found.
................................

Dear little chap on the other side but his feelings were real.

[Kizzy]

My feeling was if they are doing what they believe in their heart is right, is it wrong?

What is wrong is the manipulation by those who for power instill in the population fear.

[AnnieK]

My meaning in life now is simple.........get my son to adulthood as a happy, healthy, well rounded, tolerant and intelligent human being and my job here is done. I will go to my grave (and whatever, if anything is beyond) happy and satisfied

[lostalex]

People always want to find "meaning" in everything. like the people that obsess about the beatles or Led zeplin, they play the records backwards and hear hidden messages. Humans for some reason can't understand the concept of nothingness, of chaos, of just believing what you see. There must be order behind it, there must be something deeper, a secret. And people are rewarded when they think they have discovered something secret, it makes them feel superior to all the other "sheep", it makes them feel special and smart. It's pure ego.

What if it really is all just a Clusterfvc|k? could you handle that reality?

[Ammi]

My meaning in life now is simple.........get my son to adulthood as a happy, healthy, well rounded, tolerant and intelligent human being and my job here is done. I will go to my grave (and whatever, if anything is beyond) happy and satisfied

People always want to find "meaning" in everything. like the people that obsess about the beatles or Led zeplin, they play the records backwards and hear hidden messages. Humans for some reason can't understand the concept of nothingness, of chaos, of just believing what you see. There must be order behind it, there must be something deeper, a secret. And people are rewarded when they think they have discovered something secret, it makes them feel superior to all the other "sheep", it makes them feel special and smart. It's pure ego.

What if it really is all just a Clusterfvc|k? could you handle that reality?

..does this not all go back though to the thing that everyone will have their own 'meaning of life' and for some, there will be no meaning at all..for others, the meaning or what defines their life could be bad/evil..or it could be good stuff, wanting to be a better person..wanting to care for the people around you/close to you etc...just whatever meaning someone wants to give it and for whatever their reasons....I don't think that there is a one fits all meaning of life...

[Kyle]

A question I would like to ask the Christians is, does it bother you that some of your friends that you chat to daily on here (and probably in life) are due an eternity in hell after we die? Do you think it's fair that because we reject the idea of Jesus Christ as our lord and saviour that we must be cast down to eternal punishment while you spend you're time playing bingo with the big man? Do you think we deserve that?

[lostalex]

..what I don't think is fair is how some people are scoffed at/ridiculed and belittled for their beliefs or religion..beyond that for me and what happens to anyone after they die is only for me to believe of myself and others to believe whatever they do for themselves...it's more to do with 'life' and the 'meaning' of if people believe there is one and what it is for them, rather than death or any 'beyond'....

religion is not special and it doesn't need to be treated with kid gloves. ridiculous ideas should be ridiculed. and bigoted hateful ideas should be treated as bigoted hateful ideas and scoffed at and condemned. All major religions are hateful and bigoted, and they deserve all of the opposition they receive.

If religion was just your personal belief then why is it being shoved down our kids throats in school, and shoved down everyone's throats in politics?

[rubymoo]

A question I would like to ask the Christians is, does it bother you that some of your friends that you chat to daily on here (and probably in life) are due an eternity in hell after we die? Do you think it's fair that because we reject the idea of Jesus Christ as our lord and saviour that we must be cast down to eternal punishment while you spend you're time playing bingo with the big man? Do you think we deserve that?

This is why i don't believe in heaven and hell, and God, because how can you have someone who believes in God and is a real b@stard in life, and is pretty much guaranteed a place in heaven because they've lived by Gods word (my step mum is one of these people) and then you get a humanitarian who puts their life on the line by helping others basically sacrificing their lives but they don't believe in God so they would go to hell......no no no, this doesn't make sense!

Or a pedophile who turns to God in prison, and becoming born again.....does this wipe his slate clean....no! It can't be like that!

This is why i believe we have our spirit families, and i believe we are energy, i believe i have similar thought processes as Jules, i don't believe in 1 God.

[lostalex]

Nothing about religion makes any sense. There is absolutely no evidence of a loving, kind, fair God anywhere in history. Everything we see in the history of the word is basically a cycle of desperation, rape, survivalism, killing, and more death. 99% of the species that existed on this planet are extinct. please tell me why God made so many species just to make them die?

God must be an evil ****er, cause he seems to like to kill off most of his own creations.

[lostalex]

This is why i don't believe in heaven and hell, and God, because how can you have someone who believes in God and is a real b@stard in life, and is pretty much guaranteed a place in heaven because they've lived by Gods word (my step mum is one of these people) and then you get a humanitarian who puts their life on the line by helping others basically sacrificing their lives but they don't believe in God so they would go to hell......no no no, this doesn't make sense!

Or a pedophile who turns to God in prison, and becoming born again.....does this wipe his slate clean....no! It can't be like that!

This is why i believe we have our spirit families, and i believe we are energy, i believe i have similar thought processes as Jules, i don't believe in 1 God.
you are just a bunch of molecules cycling through a system.

[Ammi]

religion is not special and it doesn't need to be treated with kid gloves. ridiculous ideas should be ridiculed. and bigoted hateful ideas should be treated as bigoted hateful ideas and scoffed at and condemned. All major religions are hateful and bigoted, and they deserve all of the opposition they receive.

If religion was just your personal belief then why is it being shoved down our kids throats in school, and shoved down everyone's throats in politics?

...I don't believe personally that there is 'no place' for anything religious in schools but I also don't say that I believe in religion in schools as such either..it's like anything that you can take something positive from..like say advice or something..?..or those 'self help' type books..?..I'm not sure if this is a good analogy or not but it's like taking the bits you think apply to you or your life philosophies etc ..so with bible stories/moral stories etc ..there is something which can be applicable in teaching and in schools with children..but that isn't as such teaching them 'religion'...I'm not saying that schools don't go further than that/some schools but that's where I personally think it has 'a place' and I don't think that's enforcing any beliefs...and a bit like what Ruby said...I don't believe that people can 'hide' behind religion if they're not good people generally in life and that's something that I have personally experienced, which is why I don't practise a religion but I do believe in the 'good' of people and if practising a religion does help give them some of that 'good'..the it can't be a bad thing...it doesn't for me have to 'make sense' if it's something that you believe in which helps make you a better person because that in itself is what makes the sense...

[lostalex]

...I don't believe personally that there is 'no place' for anything religious in schools but I also don't say that I believe in religion in schools as such either..it's like anything that you can take something positive from..like say advice or something..?..or those 'self help' type books..?..I'm not sure if this is a good analogy or not but it's like taking the bits you think apply to you or your life philosophies etc ..so with bible stories/moral stories etc ..there is something which can be applicable in teaching and in schools with children..but that isn't as such teaching them 'religion'...I'm not saying that schools don't go further than that/some schools but that's where I personally think it has 'a place' and I don't think that's enforcing any beliefs...and a bit like what Ruby said...I don't believe that people can 'hide' behind religion if they're not good people generally in life and that's something that I have personally experienced, which is why I don't practise a religion but I do believe in the 'good' of people and if practising a religion does help give them some of that 'good'..the it can't be a bad thing...it doesn't for me have to 'make sense' if it's something that you believe in which helps make you a better person because that in itself is what makes the sense...

There is no evidence that religion makes any one a better person though, there is however plenty of evidence that religion makes some people WORSE people ...hello ISIS, hello homophobes, hello the crusades, hello the spanish inquisition, hello every single woman that's been stoned to death for committing adultery in muslim countries.

[Ammi]

There is no evidence that religion makes any one a better person though, there is however plenty of evidence that religion makes some people WORSE people ...hello ISIS, hello homophobes, hello the crusades, hello the spanish inquisition, hello every single woman that's been stoned to death for committing adultery in muslim countries.

..no there is no evidence, Alex...but there are people who do take the good out of what their life beliefs are and that's what I mean..they don't judge and they don't 'condemn' for not having the same beliefs..and they're not prejudice and they don't stone people to death....with the atrocities committed by ISIS, I don't believe that religion is a responsibility but an excuse to carry out these barbaric acts...there is no 'God' there whatsoever...

[Jules2]

My feeling was if they are doing what they believe in their heart is right, is it wrong?

What is wrong is the manipulation by those who for power instill in the population fear.

I agree with you totally Kizzy, the young lad in my piece was very young and whilst our nuns had been killed I felt for the young lad who suffered at our hands. I would say that he didnt know any better because of his training. It is a cruel cruel world but he thought he was in the right and he was protecting his earthly "masters" voice.

[Jules2]

One of the greatest sayings is "unto thine own self be true". We all know that we have different views and this is great because we can honour each persons thought. If there is nothing then it wont matter because we wont realise.

On the other hand many have had great experiences which are nothing to do with wishful thinking, they are just that, experiences. Mine came about through prayer when I was truly involved with the thought of a God. It is to long a story to go into but whilst at one time I was possibly looking and searching for help, I began to think of other things, I began to question. I realised that there was a reason for my distress, I began to handle it with a positive thought. The distress is still with me after many years but my thought is fighting for my family who need to be uplifted. We have had many illnesses which have been quite distressing. We therefore feed off of each others positivity. We work as one. Regardless my experiences are real and I will never deny them. It is as though I am in another dimension. I am wise enough to know though that an experience is only an experience to that person, to others it can be deemed rubbish. Seek and yea shall find.

There have been many great teachers over the centuries, people just telling us how to get through the trials and tribulations of life. One of the greatest things is forgiveness, possibly the only reason why we should forgive is to help ourselves because the negativity eats us away. Forgive and let it go, let life sort out the karma of an incident. It is very hard at times to forgive though.

Talking about nothing and just darkness I remember I used to sit in primary school just visualising nothing, what would happen if there was nothing at all. It was an eerie feeling and one which seemed to consume me at that time. My paintings had much black within their outline, but then that tiny spark of light shone through.

There is a thought that as we think on this planet so shall we think in another existence until that little light gives us hope and the spirit can move on. To me hell is just our own thoughts and many a time we can say that the hell is here on earth.

[Jules2]

Nothing about religion makes any sense. There is absolutely no evidence of a loving, kind, fair God anywhere in history. Everything we see in the history of the word is basically a cycle of desperation, rape, survivalism, killing, and more death. 99% of the species that existed on this planet are extinct. please tell me why God made so many species just to make them die?

God must be an evil ****er, cause he seems to like to kill off most of his own creations.

I guess it depends on what people want to take out of religion, I had a friend who was over religious but she would spend her time running others down and criticising. I challenged her once with something not on the religious vein but on another, she isnt my friend anymore!! :cheer2: Cant help laughing tbh.

If things rightly uplift then religion works but it possibly depends on how it is used. So much has been laid at its door and many have fallen away from it. I suppose we are beginning to think for ourselves and to realise that we cannot just live by the word of another.

[Kyle]

I was not referring specifically to you and therefore am not patronising you Kyle. There are a number of posters, of which you are but one.

That said, I still don't see what you are seeing in the 'time scale' of Ammi's post - I really, genuinely don't.

My perception of Ammi is that she's a poetic dreamer, a gentle soul without a shred of malice in her being.

Mate you can only be talking about me. I'm the only person that reacted.

[Jules2]

A question I would like to ask the Christians is, does it bother you that some of your friends that you chat to daily on here (and probably in life) are due an eternity in hell after we die? Do you think it's fair that because we reject the idea of Jesus Christ as our lord and saviour that we must be cast down to eternal punishment while you spend you're time playing bingo with the big man? Do you think we deserve that?


As we know Kyle, each to their own but I agree that it cant be right. There are too many different thoughts and expressions in the world for any one group to be totally correct. I guess we just find our own way.

[kirklancaster]

"People always want to find "meaning" in everything. like the people that obsess about the beatles or Led zeplin, they play the records backwards and hear hidden messages."

I think that you omitted the word; 'Some' from the beginning of your first statement. Some people do always want to find "meaning" in everything. There are those who search for hidden messages in the lyrics of Helter Skelter from the Beatle's White Album, as there are those who 'suffer' from 'Pareidolia' and discern faces in clouds and trees etc.

Then there some others - myself included - who are essentially metaphysicists (in the true sense) and who seek answers to the genuine mysteries of life. We are not 'nutcases', delusional, and not given to 'blind' acceptance of dogma - from any source, nor do we exclude 'science' from the questions or answers.

"Humans for some reason can't understand the concept of nothingness, of chaos, of just believing what you see."

In part, you are absolutely correct here - at least as far as I am concerned - because I cannot accept the concept of nothingness, which is, after all, just another 'theory' -- as is 'Chaos', 'The Big Bang', String', and every other 'scientific proposition. I will ask again the following:

If life is 'accidental' - where did at all begin?
If there was nothing who introduced the something ?
If there was already something, who put the something there in the first place ?
If there is no meaning to life, and no after life, then we are no different to other animals.

If that is so, then where did our moral code come from?

"There must be order behind it, there must be something deeper, a secret. And people are rewarded when they think they have discovered something secret, it makes them feel superior to all the other "sheep", it makes them feel special and smart. It's pure ego."

Some of the greatest scientific minds who ever lived - and still live - believe(d) in order behind the most seemingly random realities in life.

As for 'feeling superior/special/smart; the polar opposite is true. Any sane, rational man who does seek answers in a metaphysical sense, realises - before he has even set forth on his quest to try to find answers - just how insignificant Man really is in the 'grand scheme of things'. He is instantly humbled by the enormity of that quest.

"What if it really is all just a Clusterfvc|k? could you handle that reality?"

Yes, but the actual odds of being able to procure answers to the 'meaning of life' are so utterly overwhelming, that when all the most exhaustive scientific and philosophical searching is ended, I seriously doubt that Man will ever be left with anything other than a simple choice between 'Faith' and 'Atheism'.

I think you may as well reverse the question and ask: "What if it really is one day proved that there is a God and a higher purpose to life? Could you Atheists handle that reality? .

[Kyle]

As we know Kyle, each to their own but I agree that it cant be right. There are too many different thoughts and expressions in the world for any one group to be totally correct. I guess we just find our own way.

I know you've responded further up to my questions Jules and I apologise for not taking note of them but I'm bowing out of the discussion now. I've enjoyed it though it's been good and I'll definitely keep reading.

[smudgie]

Maybe the question for some is not so much "What is the meaning of life" as "Is there meaning to life" .

My personal theory is that if we all live and let live, life might be a happier journey.
I don't believe in the bible, just another book of fairy tales to me, however, I don't feel the need to tell people that do that they are wrong.
A bit of faith goes a long way in this life, what you have faith in matters not.

[Jules2]

I know you've responded further up to my questions Jules and I apologise for not taking note of them but I'm bowing out of the discussion now. I've enjoyed it though it's been good and I'll definitely keep reading.

I find this thread a must :hehe: I keep thinking I wont write but then I do :joker: Dont leave Kyle or Ammi, there will be something else which will come to fruition and it may need answering by different people. How else are we going to learn? :nono: :wavey:

Kyle did you read my blog on santa clause and Reubens the Royal :joker:

[kirklancaster]

Maybe the question for some is not so much "What is the meaning of life" as "Is there meaning to life" .

My personal theory is that if we all live and let live, life might be a happier journey.
I don't believe in the bible, just another book of fairy tales to me, however, I don't feel the need to tell people that do that they are wrong.
A bit of faith goes a long way in this life, what you have faith in matters not.

Valid points. :thumbs:

[Jules2]

Maybe the question for some is not so much "What is the meaning of life" as "Is there meaning to life" .

My personal theory is that if we all live and let live, life might be a happier journey.
I don't believe in the bible, just another book of fairy tales to me, however, I don't feel the need to tell people that do that they are wrong.
A bit of faith goes a long way in this life, what you have faith in matters not.

Whatever uplifts and enables someone to go on in a positive vein eh! I agree smudgie.

[Jules2]

"People always want to find "meaning" in everything. like the people that obsess about the beatles or Led zeplin, they play the records backwards and hear hidden messages."

I think that you omitted the word; 'Some' from the beginning of your first statement. Some people do always want to find "meaning" in everything. There are those who search for hidden messages in the lyrics of Helter Skelter from the Beatle's White Album, as there are those who 'suffer' from 'Pareidolia' and discern faces in clouds and trees etc.

Then there some others - myself included - who are essentially metaphysicists (in the true sense) and who seek answers to the genuine mysteries of life. We are not 'nutcases', delusional, and not given to 'blind' acceptance of dogma - from any source, nor do we exclude 'science' from the questions or answers.

"Humans for some reason can't understand the concept of nothingness, of chaos, of just believing what you see."

In part, you are absolutely correct here - at least as far as I am concerned - because I cannot accept the concept of nothingness, which is, after all, just another 'theory' -- as is 'Chaos', 'The Big Bang', String', and every other 'scientific proposition. I will ask again the following:

If life is 'accidental' - where did at all begin?
If there was nothing who introduced the something ?
If there was already something, who put the something there in the first place ?
If there is no meaning to life, and no after life, then we are no different to other animals.

If that is so, then where did our moral code come from?

"There must be order behind it, there must be something deeper, a secret. And people are rewarded when they think they have discovered something secret, it makes them feel superior to all the other "sheep", it makes them feel special and smart. It's pure ego."

Some of the greatest scientific minds who ever lived - and still live - believe(d) in order behind the most seemingly random realities in life.

As for 'feeling superior/special/smart; the polar opposite is true. Any sane, rational man who does seek answers in a metaphysical sense, realises - before he has even set forth on his quest to try to find answers - just how insignificant Man really is in the 'grand scheme of things'. He is instantly humbled by the enormity of that quest.

"What if it really is all just a Clusterfvc|k? could you handle that reality?"

Yes, but the actual odds of being able to procure answers to the 'meaning of life' are so utterly overwhelming, that when all the most exhaustive scientific and philosophical searching is ended, I seriously doubt that Man will ever be left with anything other than a simple choice between 'Faith' and 'Atheism'.

I think you may as well reverse the question and ask: "What if it really is one day proved that there is a God and a higher purpose to life? Could you Atheists handle that reality? .

Great post Kirk, there is always two sides to every coin this is why it is great to have an ever open mind.

Re the ego thing, for myself I do not have any as I respect everyones point of view. On the other hand I have been to a couple of churches, the Spiritualist being one of them. Because of their supposed qualities I thought they could teach me something but I soon realised that as some thought they had a gift, they expected their word to be the truth. Their egos were so great that they did not like being challenged. There was a great division at that time, my mind was with both but I was told I had to come down off of the fence and go on one side or the other. To me that wasnt at all spiritual so I left.

Many mediums are great but others do not seem to realise that they still have very far to go, there is still far more to perceive even at their misrepresented level of understanding.

[lostalex]

[/B]

Great post Kirk, there is always two sides to every coin this is why it is great to have an ever open mind.

Re the ego thing, for myself I do not have any as I respect everyones point of view. On the other hand I have been to a couple of churches, the Spiritualist being one of them. Because of their supposed qualities I thought they could teach me something but I soon realised that as some thought they had a gift, they expected their word to be the truth. Their egos were so great that they did not like being challenged. There was a great division at that time, my mind was with both but I was told I had to come down off of the fence and go on one side or the other. To me that wasnt at all spiritual so I left.

Many mediums are great but others do not seem to realise that they still have very far to go, there is still far more to perceive even at their misrepresented level of understanding.


It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?".

it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/.

[lostalex]

As far as your last point Kirk, if it did turn out there was a GOD, and i found out that he was putting us through all this torture and suffering, i would try to ****ing kill that ****ing ASSHOLE. If there is a God then he is evil for what he has done to humanity.

I would never ask forgiveness from God, i would DEMAND that God beg ME for forgiveness. for all that he's done to me and the people i love, and to the entire human race.

If there is a God, shame on him.

[Liam-]

I think the reasonable answer to this question is, everyone has their own ideals on what brings meaning to life, their life specifically.

Some may think God and religion is what brings ultimate meaning to a persons life and they'll devote themselves to following his every word and follow the words of the bible and that's okay.

Some people might think that being green and loving the planet to try and preserve natures beauty for future generations brings ultimate meaning to their life and that's okay.

Some people might think that money and success will bring them complete joy and make their lives happier and much easier, so they strive to gain all of their personal goals in order to reap the rewards and feel fulfilled, that's okay too.

Some people think that living a free life away from the stress of the modern day society is the way forward, being free from worry, free from the burden that today's world throws upon people on an everyday basis, just having to survive, with only love and hope to carry them through, that's more than okay if that's what suits those people.

I don't think there's any place for judging or criticising people's beliefs and their personal infrastructure, we are all different, we all see different things in the world, we all see beauty and meaning in different things, but at the end of the day, we're all the same, at the core of every being there is a longing for acceptance and love and ultimately happiness, whichever way people seem fit to seek happiness, as long as it's legal and it doesn't hurt or harm anyone, there's nothing wrong with it, everyone's life meaning is equal and just as important in the world as everyone else's.

Me? well i strive for the day when i can turn around and say that I have made my parents proud, that i've made myself proud, that I've become the best person i could possibly be, money and success mean nothing to me, the love of my family and friends is what drives me and that's what gives my life meaning because as long as i have that, then I'll always be happy.

[Jules2]

It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

Tbh Lostalex, I do believe that we do not have to be sheep, we have to think for ourselves and keep our minds open at all times. There is nothing that we can really prove for everyone. The things which I think today may, in a few years time, be proven to be wrong. I wont feel blue though as my mind is never closed.

There are so many thoughts about everything that I do not see the connection between "can you prove blah blah blah" as being a religious aspect. To me it is fact, I say this you say that, can you prove what you say, I cant tbh because they are my experiences which I will not deny. I say I am not religious but I find comfort in a lot of things which are connected to religion, ie I love hymns (not hers :dance: psst nothing wrong in loving hers :dance:).

Re Minatours and alike, for me I have to remember that all words are man made but I do not know and cannot prove whether a great being is in control. If so that being is energy something which we can all tap into to find a better understanding of life and purpose.

If life was diminshed and begun again, if a man was found upon a beach and he discovered a beano or a fairytale book, would he believe that that was the "bible" of sorts. The answer is we really do not know so for me we have to flip the coin for all/everything to be considered. :wavey:

[lostalex]

[/B]

Tbh Lostalex, I do believe that we do not have to be sheep, we have to think for ourselves and keep our minds open at all times. There is nothing that we can really prove for everyone. The things which I think today may, in a few years time, be proven to be wrong. I wont feel blue though as my mind is never closed.

There are so many thoughts about everything that I do not see the connection between "can you prove blah blah blah" as being a religious aspect. To me it is fact, I say this you say that, can you prove what you say, I cant tbh because they are my experiences which I will not deny. I say I am not religious but I find comfort in a lot of things which are connected to religion, ie I love hymns (not hers :dance: psst nothing wrong in loving hers :dance:).

Re Minatours and alike, for me I have to remember that all words are man made but I do not know and cannot prove whether a great being is in control. If so that being is energy something which we can all tap into to find a better understanding of life and purpose.

If life was diminshed and begun again, if a man was found upon a beach and he discovered a beano or a fairytale book, would he believe that that was the "bible" of sorts. The answer is we really do not know so for me we have to flip the coin for all/everything to be considered. :wavey:

I thnk we are finding out. because now that more and more children are raised without religion we also see that the next generations believe in it less, and religion is dying. because no one is born believing in god, it really is just brainwashing. The entire concept of God is just brainwashing by the churches that want to hold power over the people. Also we can see that the more educated people are in actual science and facts, the less likely they are to believe in God. and the opposite is also true, the less educated and less intelligent people are MORE likely to believe in God. Why does God choose the dumb people to believe in him? again, God sounds like an asshole.

[Jules2]

I think the reasonable answer to this question is, everyone has their own ideals on what brings meaning to life, their life specifically.

Some may think God and religion is what brings ultimate meaning to a persons life and they'll devote themselves to following his every word and follow the words of the bible and that's okay.

Some people might think that being green and loving the planet to try and preserve natures beauty for future generations brings ultimate meaning to their life and that's okay.

Some people might think that money and success will bring them complete joy and make their lives happier and much easier, so they strive to gain all of their personal goals in order to reap the rewards and feel fulfilled, that's okay too.

Some people think that living a free life away from the stress of the modern day society is the way forward, being free from worry, free from the burden that today's world throws upon people on an everyday basis, just having to survive, with only love and hope to carry them through, that's more than okay if that's what suits those people.

I don't think there's any place for judging or criticising people's beliefs and their personal infrastructure, we are all different, we all see different things in the world, we all see beauty and meaning in different things, but at the end of the day, we're all the same, at the core of every being there is a longing for acceptance and love and ultimately happiness, whichever way people seem fit to seek happiness, as long as it's legal and it doesn't hurt or harm anyone, there's nothing wrong with it, everyone's life meaning is equal and just as important in the world as everyone else's.

Me? well i strive for the day when i can turn around and say that I have made my parents proud, that i've made myself proud, that I've become the best person i could possibly be, money and success mean nothing to me, the love of my family and friends is what drives me and that's what gives my life meaning because as long as i have that, then I'll always be happy.

That is a lovely post Liam you will always have love and that is such an important element to our being. :wavey:

[lostalex]

I don't have a problem with people believing stupid things, along as they don't try to take MY rights away in the name of their crazy beliefs. If you wanna sit around worshipping God all day, praying five times a day in a certain direction, starving yourself on certain holidays, FINE, along as you don't try to take anyone else's rights away that's fine.

It's when religious people try to put it in their work, or their schools, or their governments, that's when I have a problem. Unfortunately, all the major religions seem to be obsessed with POLITICS!

[Jules2]

I thnk we are finding out. because now that more and more children are raised without religion we also see that the next generations believe in it less, and religion is dying. because no one is born believing in god, it really is just brainwashing. The entire concept of God is just brainwashing by the churches that want to hold power over the people. Also we can see that the more educated people are in actual science and facts, the less likely they are to believe in God. and the opposite is also true, the less educated and less intelligent people are MORE likely to believe in God. Why does God choose the dumb people to believe in him? again, God sounds like an asshole.

My parents always made me go to Sunday School but they never went themselves :laugh: I think it was more to get my brother and I out of the way :laugh:

I have never pushed religion or my beliefs down my children and grandchildrens throats but have often asked what they believe in. Surprisingly enough they have good ethics. Just talking and explaining to them over the years are well within the reach of parents and grandparents. Their own life experiences give them an understanding that if they touch a hotplate, it burns.

Nobody is dumb though if they believe in God it is their way in life. Whilst things maybe changing now, there are many old school who will still be dogmatic about the whys and wherefores of their beliefs. So long as they make allowances for all then it is truly fine. :wavey:

[lostalex]

My parents always made me go to Sunday School but they never went themselves :laugh: I think it was more to get my brother and I out of the way :laugh:

I have never pushed religion or my beliefs down my children and grandchildrens throats but have often asked what they believe in. Surprisingly enough they have good ethics. Just talking and explaining to them over the years are well within the reach of parents and grandparents. Their own life experiences give them an understanding that if they touch a hotplate, it burns.

Nobody is dumb though if they believe in God it is their way in life. Whilst things maybe changing now, there are many old school who will still be dogmatic about the whys and wherefores of their beliefs. So long as they make allowances for all then it is truly fine. :wavey:

I agree that there is nothing wrong with parents or grandparents sharing their beliefs with their children/grandchildren as long as it's an open dialogue, and not just a lecture. Do you encourage your children/grandchildren to question things and make up their own minds though? or did you intentionally try to influence them by giving or withholding love? Most parents/grandparents reward children when they agree or withhold love and affection when they challenge or disagree. It's a very passive aggressive way of forming their beliefs, especially while they are young.

[Jules2]

As far as your last point Kirk, if it did turn out there was a GOD, and i found out that he was putting us through all this torture and suffering, i would try to ****ing kill that ****ing ASSHOLE. If there is a God then he is evil for what he has done to humanity.

I would never ask forgiveness from God, i would DEMAND that God beg ME for forgiveness. for all that he's done to me and the people i love, and to the entire human race.

If there is a God, shame on him.

It is hard Lostalex when we are going through our own trials, we can questions things as to why it is happening. To me this is why I do not believe in a god, I feel it is ok for me not to believe but I do believe in faith. Faith that we will have the courage to see ourselves through without suffering to much turmoil.

In my book we do have the answers within for our own survival. With my own troubles I used to sit down and write everything in a book, I could say what I wanted, I could get the anger out of myself, I uplifted myself as I suddenly realised that there was a healing power which was within me. I accepted it and have never looked back. It is a power for sharing.

[Josy]

I cleaned the last few pages of this thread and also removed a few comments.

If your post was removed then it was either against the rules or it was quoting or replying to a deleted post.

Can we now stick to the thread topic and not discuss other members or problems you may have with each other.

Please also remember that this is the Serious Debates section, if you have no interest in taking part in the debate and prefer instead to make jokey, fun comments then you should head to chat & games.

[kirklancaster]

It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?".

it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/.

I really do not know where you draw the above conclusions you do Alex based on your original post and my response to your original post - there really is no basis for such conclusions, they are delusional and misleading.

You did not post 'contentions' requiring 'evidence' in a response, merely your 'point of view' , so I responded civilly and quite reasonably with a counter point of view. This being so, before I respond to this post, I'd like to analyse just what you originally posted, and just what my response to that original posting was -- after which, I defy any sane, impartial reader to concur with your illogical rant above:

Firstly, you posted:

Original Post : "People always want to find "meaning" in everything. like the people that obsess about the beatles or Led zeplin, they play the records backwards and hear hidden messages."

My Response To Your Original Post: "I think that you omitted the word; 'Some' from the beginning of your first statement. Some people do always want to find "meaning" in everything. There are those who search for hidden messages in the lyrics of Helter Skelter from the Beatle's White Album, as there are those who 'suffer' from 'Pareidolia' and discern faces in clouds and trees etc.

Then there some others - myself included - who are essentially metaphysicists (in the true sense) and who seek answers to the genuine mysteries of life. We are not 'nutcases', delusional, and not given to 'blind' acceptance of dogma - from any source, nor do we exclude 'science' from the questions or answers."

Original Post: "Humans for some reason can't understand the concept of nothingness, of chaos, of just believing what you see."

My Response To Your Original Post:]"In part, you are absolutely correct here - at least as far as I am concerned - because I cannot accept the concept of nothingness, which is, after all, just another 'theory' -- as is 'Chaos', 'The Big Bang', String', and every other 'scientific proposition. I will ask again the following:

If life is 'accidental' - where did at all begin?
If there was nothing who introduced the something ?
If there was already something, who put the something there in the first place ?
If there is no meaning to life, and no after life, then we are no different to other animals.

If that is so, then where did our moral code come from?"


Original Post: "There must be order behind it, there must be something deeper, a secret. And people are rewarded when they think they have discovered something secret, it makes them feel superior to all the other "sheep", it makes them feel special and smart. It's pure ego."

My Response To Your Original Post: Some of the greatest scientific minds who ever lived - and still live - believe(d) in order behind the most seemingly random realities in life.

As for 'feeling superior/special/smart; the polar opposite is true. Any sane, rational man who does seek answers in a metaphysical sense, realises - before he has even set forth on his quest to try to find answers - just how insignificant Man really is in the 'grand scheme of things'. He is instantly humbled by the enormity of that quest.

Original Post: "What if it really is all just a Clusterfvc|k? could you handle that reality?"


My Response To Your Original Post: Yes, but the actual odds of being able to procure answers to the 'meaning of life' are so utterly overwhelming, that when all the most exhaustive scientific and philosophical searching is ended, I seriously doubt that Man will ever be left with anything other than a simple choice between 'Faith' and 'Atheism'.

I think you may as well reverse the question and ask: "What if it really is one day proved that there is a God and a higher purpose to life? Could you Atheists handle that reality? .

Analysing the above -- Just how did you drawn the conclusions you have in this post? How can you justify what you contend?

[kirklancaster]

It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?".

it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/.

"It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!"

The above claims are just not valid because I never stated those words or even intimated them, and have answered this in my last post.

"he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites."

Again Alex; I never stated those words or even intimated them, and nowhere in my response to your post do I allude to 'conspiracist' theories or the websites for such, and I do not regard myself as "smarter than everyone else" nor have I stated as much or intimated as much. In fact, in other posts on this thread I have stated how complex a subject this is and how there are internet articles and books on the subject written by far more intelligent and knowledgeable minds than mine.

That said, I am educated and intelligent and articulate, so I am not going to deliberately write in pidgin English and to the standard of an illiterate ignoramus simply to prevent people from wrongly attacking me for being a 'clever clogs'. Lastly, I'm neither a 'conspiracy' person, or a 'religious nut', and I've never heard of 'pat robertson' or 'jerry fallwell'.

"Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet."

Well actually, no I don't believe in 'Unicorns' or 'Minotaurs', but I do believe that these mythological creatures - like all myths - have a basis in historical reality. However, my non belief in these creatures renders a response to your challenge redundant.

"How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?"

'Religious people' is such a sweeping term and this sentence is far too generic and cryptic for me to address. Which particular 'religious people Alex? and just what have these 'religious people' specifically said which 'sounds so stupid'?

"The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?"."

I'll ignore the personal insult from you. I'm neither 'too proud' nor 'too dumb' to just say "i don't know"- as a search through my posts on this thread will attest, because I never state anything I believe as fact, but always state it as a 'belief'. What's more, where I have been asked a question which I don't have an answer to, I simply state that "I don't know". Look at my responses to LeatherTrumpet and Kyle among others and you'll see the truth of this. Further; I have never shirked from answering any questions in civil posts so I do not know - again - why you make this claim in a post about me.

However, I am amused by the irony in your erroneous claim because, any honest, impartial reader who compares my posts on this thread with yours, cannot deduce anything other than the fact that it is you Alex who act as if your opinions are facts and you who state the scientific theories which you espouse as absolutes.

"it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/."

I simply do not know what you mean by this, and cannot see where it fits into the context of the rest of your post.

My regards Alex anyway.

[Shaun]

i think the meaning of life is this thread

[kirklancaster]

As far as your last point Kirk, if it did turn out there was a GOD, and i found out that he was putting us through all this torture and suffering, i would try to ****ing kill that ****ing ASSHOLE. If there is a God then he is evil for what he has done to humanity.

I would never ask forgiveness from God, i would DEMAND that God beg ME for forgiveness. for all that he's done to me and the people i love, and to the entire human race.

If there is a God, shame on him.

I understand your anger at 'God' Alex, I really do. It's the age old question of why a supposedly loving, caring, creator God will stand back and allow terrible things to happen to an individual or humans in general. The answer is that I do not know Alex - I have cursed God myself in the past through my grief and asked him the same question.

The same question is posed throughout the Bible as well but i can't remember where or what the responses were.

[kirklancaster]

I think the reasonable answer to this question is, everyone has their own ideals on what brings meaning to life, their life specifically.

Some may think God and religion is what brings ultimate meaning to a persons life and they'll devote themselves to following his every word and follow the words of the bible and that's okay.

Some people might think that being green and loving the planet to try and preserve natures beauty for future generations brings ultimate meaning to their life and that's okay.

Some people might think that money and success will bring them complete joy and make their lives happier and much easier, so they strive to gain all of their personal goals in order to reap the rewards and feel fulfilled, that's okay too.

Some people think that living a free life away from the stress of the modern day society is the way forward, being free from worry, free from the burden that today's world throws upon people on an everyday basis, just having to survive, with only love and hope to carry them through, that's more than okay if that's what suits those people.

I don't think there's any place for judging or criticising people's beliefs and their personal infrastructure, we are all different, we all see different things in the world, we all see beauty and meaning in different things, but at the end of the day, we're all the same, at the core of every being there is a longing for acceptance and love and ultimately happiness, whichever way people seem fit to seek happiness, as long as it's legal and it doesn't hurt or harm anyone, there's nothing wrong with it, everyone's life meaning is equal and just as important in the world as everyone else's.

Me? well i strive for the day when i can turn around and say that I have made my parents proud, that i've made myself proud, that I've become the best person i could possibly be, money and success mean nothing to me, the love of my family and friends is what drives me and that's what gives my life meaning because as long as i have that, then I'll always be happy.

Brilliantly written Liam and really balanced.

[kirklancaster]

i think the meaning of life is this thread

I agree.

[kirklancaster]

..no there is no evidence, Alex...but there are people who do take the good out of what their life beliefs are and that's what I mean..they don't judge and they don't 'condemn' for not having the same beliefs..and they're not prejudice and they don't stone people to death....with the atrocities committed by ISIS, I don't believe that religion is a responsibility but an excuse to carry out these barbaric acts...there is no 'God' there whatsoever...

Brilliant Ammi.

[kirklancaster]

Food for thought #1. -- I welcome all responses.

In the Hebrew Bible, there are numerous instances of the 10 Commandments being in existence long before God handed them down to Moses on Mount Sinai, as recorded in Exodus.

But, to prevent argument, let's take God and 'religion' out of the equation - for the moment at least - other than for quotation purposes.

I maintain that whoever drafted the 10 Commandments was no ordinary Man, but some 'one' or 'thing' of an intellect and knowledge far beyond contemporary Man's.

Think about it:

The 10 Commandments are a 'blueprint' for living life - a blueprint which, if adhered to, guarantees the ascension to a state akin to 'paradise', though this is the 'ultimate' ascension of the species rather than any ascension to 'heaven' of any 'righteous' individual upon physical death.

It's as if some superior being said to primitive man; you're doing it all wrong. Here - do it this way, and one day you will reach paradise.

Crazy nonsense?

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.
2) You shall not make idols.
3) You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Adherence to the first 4 Commandments above, has many benefits - none more so than the fact that through Monotheism and a universal acceptance of One God instead of many different ones, it will put an end to religious wars and all the killing and suffering which they entail.

5) Honor your father and your mother.
6) You shall not murder.
7) You shall not commit adultery.
8) You shall not steal.
9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10) You shall not covet your neighbors goods.

Adherence to the other 6 Commandments above, will put an end to stealing, murder and killing each other, as well as all the violence and strife which desiring your neighbours wives and possessions, and disrespecting others can lead to.

Keep thinking with an open mind. Imagine;

A society with no crime, no wars, and no civil unrest. A society, therefore, where Police and armies, and all the associated organisations, are ultimately unnecessary.

Think of all the cumulative trillions of zillions of pounds which are currently wasted on weapons, war, crime detection, being invested instead on medical and other 'scientific' research.

Wouldn't we eventually conquer cancer and other horrific diseases? Wouldn't we succeed in mastering new technological means of food production? We have already isolated the ant-ageing gene, so isn't it probable that we will have conquered ageing if not death itself as well?

Wouldn't we have mastered interplanetary if not interstellar space flight? Colonised the moon? Colonised other worlds? What a future. No dystopia just utopia.

A civilisation with no crime, no wars, and no civil unrest. A world without disease or illness. A world where starvation is unknown, and where citizens virtually live forever.

Isn't this one form of 'paradise'? A paradise which the entire human species can one day attain.

Who drafted the 10 Commandments so many thousands of years ago?

[Livia]

According to the Torah, the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God on Mt Sinai. They are not mentioned in the Torah before then so I'm not sure where the instances of them previously being inexistence could be. As for who drafted them... well, according to Judaism, and to Christian religions (because Jesus said he upheld the laws of Moses), it was God.

The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't.

[Jules2]

The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't. (Livia)

Sadly this is the truth of the matter Livia. I wonder if our makeup is due to present or past genes as in reincarnatio if one believes in it?

[Jules2]

On the 23rd November 1987, after watching a TV programme on events in 1980, empathic thoughts made me consider two points of view, they came about with the murder of Jean Donovan, a young Catholic Missionery along with 3 American Nuns in El Salvador and the murder of a young lad from El Salvador. Two different sides but one side was trying to help and was killed, then we have retaliation whereby a young lad was also killed.

Two Points of View

"What a beautiful concept Jeannie did say,
When she spoke of the "Lord" at the end of the day.
She remarked "Lord" you promised to walk in my path every hour.
When I walk happy in the sand and I turn face about,
I see two sets of footsteps and I gleefully shout.
But Lord when I need thee and I turn around,
There is only one set of footsteps to be found.
So where are you?

The "Lord" replied in compassionate voice,
"But Jeannie when you see two you know I am there.
Your happiness and love I gladly share.
So when down at heart your faith should be strong,
To see only one set you are surely not wrong,
For that is when with the cloak of compassion,
I carry thee in true love and a heavenly passion".
.................................................. ..........

The above is the beginning of my story re the young lad who was killed in El Salvador, I wrote it after watching the programme so the words of Footsteps in the Sand are not true to the original, I did it by memory. It is a lovely piece and even if we do not believe in a "God" it gives us hope that we are not alone.

[Kizzy]

I believe the 10 commandments to be one of the first examples of instilling fear into people in order to ensure civil order, obedience and compliance.

I don't believe god wrote that text, I think moses did for the power.

[Livia]

No one's compelled to believe anything. I don't believe that if you cast a bad spooky spell on someone it comes back to you three times, so the idea that it will was designed to instil fear. Everyone believes what they believe. I will say though, that the commandments are laws, and without law there is chaos. I don't see it as instilling fear, more about bringing order... which is what they were designed to do if you know the story, whoever you believe wrote them.

[Jules2]

I have never ever read the bible right through there are points which I cannot agree with unless I take it on the alternative thought level. One is the request to leave ones family and to follow me. Now to me the family is precious and should be protected. Now if we take it on the level of leaving the body and travelling to the realms for teaching and upliftment, this I could accept.

The bible possibly has hidden meanings which have been altered for the benefit of those who would like the power and control of mankind.

[Livia]

I have never ever read the bible right through there are points which I cannot agree with unless I take it on the alternative thought level. One is the request to leave ones family and to follow me. Now to me the family is prescious and should be protected. Now if we take it on the level of leaving the body and travelling to the realms for teaching and upliftment, this I could accept.

The bible possibly has hidden meanings which have been altered for the benefit of those who would like the power and control of mankind.

It's hard to disagree with something you've never read through. As far as my own religion is concerned, family is at the core of it.

[kirklancaster]

No one's compelled to believe anything. I don't believe that if you cast a bad spooky spell on someone it comes back to you three times, so the idea that it will was designed to instil fear. Everyone believes what they believe. I will say though, that the commandments are laws, and without law there is chaos. I don't see it as instilling fear, more about bringing order... which is what they were designed to do if you know the story, whoever you believe wrote them.

Well written and I agree. (still writing a response to your other post Liv).

[Jules2]

It's hard to disagree with something you've never read through. As far as my own religion is concerned, family is at the core of it.

Sorry Livia our posts crossed just now and I wasnt downing your words just generalising on my own feelings. I have read bits but not all. It is the old testament that I am interested in. I feel with the new that many have taken up the pen, I believe that some was written long after the birth of the Nazerene.

As I am not Jesus minded I guess the new is hard to accept whereas the old tells a story of things which once again need to be deciphered.

I have to admit that I am not capable of debating on the book at all. Others I can justify.

[Kizzy]

There is no 'bible' as it were for pagans but the law of the universe is that if you will bad things to happen to someone don't be surprised if they are inadvertently attracted to you spewing all that negative energy....
The hearth and the home are sacred to many people it's not only to those who follow a set path.
Where is it written that prior to the 10 commandments there was disorder?
Without wisdom there is chaos, laws are made to manipulate the masses and not always for the good of mankind.

[Jules2]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with parents or grandparents sharing their beliefs with their children/grandchildren as long as it's an open dialogue, and not just a lecture. Do you encourage your children/grandchildren to question things and make up their own minds though? or did you intentionally try to influence them by giving or withholding love? Most parents/grandparents reward children when they agree or withhold love and affection when they challenge or disagree. It's a very passive aggressive way of forming their beliefs, especially while they are young.

To me Alex love is unconditional and should never be withheld from a child. It is because of this my husband and I have had two of our grandchildren living with us for the last 12years. It was difficult to begin with with the eldest as she had taken the brunt of it all but we have got there. They have their own minds and believe that they can teach me old rope :laugh: They are very philisophical in their approach though and they believe in trying to be the adult when it comes to falling out with their friends. They do not always succeed but then one in particular takes herself to task.

I believe that whilst we can guide them there is something instilled in a lot of children. They question me and our conversations are interactive. They are their own masters.

[Jules2]

There is no 'bible' as it were for pagans but the law of the universe is that if you will bad things to happen to someone don't be surprised if they are inadvertently attracted to you spewing all that negative energy....
The hearth and the home are sacred to many people it's not only to those who follow a set path.
Where is it written that prior to the 10 commandments there was disorder?
Without wisdom there is chaos, laws are made to manipulate the masses and not always for the good of mankind.

Going with the theory of what goes around comes around? Max Freedom Longs books are very interesting, he writes about the Kahuna tribes, I believe I mentioned it before.

Now this tribe was a branch off from a mass in Egypt, they split up when there was trouble there, they went to different shores. Now they were capable of being in tune with all things but whilst their motto was to do no harm to another, if one should betray a law they were punished by a "witch doctor". This at a distance but the spell could be broken if realised and their deed corrected.

Thus the art of forgiving is important for oneself as it uplifts our innerselves, it takes us above the negativity of the deed itself. We then let life sort out the deeds karma one way or another. As we are above that energy it cannot hit us. Just me generalising...:laugh:

[Kizzy]

Well no, that does seem a karmaesque view :laugh: ( I invented a word)

In the same way people 'pray' people 'will' which is kind of like praying ... only you don't ask it of anyone or wish it.
Like attracts like if you put out good and positivity then you receive it, and if you don't? Then you get that back too... 'as ye sow' ' be careful what you wish for' all great old sayings that really do have a good basis in teaching prior to 'religion' as we know it to be.

[kirklancaster]

According to the Torah, the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God on Mt Sinai. They are not mentioned in the Torah before then so I'm not sure where the instances of them previously being inexistence could be. As for who drafted them... well, according to Judaism, and to Christian religions (because Jesus said he upheld the laws of Moses), it was God.

The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't.

Of course Livia, you are correct about the Torah and the fact that God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mt Sinai. But this was the Decalogue - the 10 Commandments as a whole - and there is other evidence throughout the Old testament to suggest that various (if not all) Commandments were made known by God to the Hebrews prior to Moses.

Evidence to suggest that the 1st two Commandments; "You shall have no other gods before Me” and, “You shall not make for yourself a carved image etc" were known hundreds of years before Exodus 20:3-5, can be found with the patriarch Jacob;

“Then God said to Jacob, ‘Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there; and make an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you fled from the face of Esau your brother.’ And Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, ‘Put away the foreign gods that are among you, purify yourselves, and change your garments. Then let us arise and go up to Bethel; and I will make an altar there to God, who answered me in the day of my distress and has been with me in the way which I have gone.’ So they gave Jacob all the foreign gods which were in their hands, and the earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the terebinth tree which was by Shechem” (Genesis 35:1-4).

Similarly, there is evidence to suggest in Job 1:5, that Job was aware of the 3rd Commandment; “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain” (Exodus 20:7) and Job lived before Moses at around the time of Isaac:

Job was concerned that his children might have been taking God’s name in vain, and he knew that was wrong -- “So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them [his children], and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, ‘It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.’

More evidence that Moses - if not all the people - knew of the 10 Commandments , especially the 4th Commandment; "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exodus 20:8) can be found in Exodus 16:23-28, when God gave Israel manna to eat:

“Then he [Moses] said to them, ‘This is what the LORD has said: “Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD.”’ … Then Moses said, ‘Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it [manna] in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.’

“Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the LORD said to Moses, ‘How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?’ -- So even before arriving at Mount Sinai, God expected the people to obey His commandments, including the Fourth Commandment.

Some evidence to suggest that God had already made known the 6th Commandment; “You shall not murder”(Exodus 20:13) can be found in Genesis 4:6-8: where God told Cain he was to rule over and avoid sin, as anger was in Cain’s heart. “So the LORD said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.’ Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him” Cain’s anger led to the sin of murder.

Also, after the Flood, people knew that God was against murder and demanded a penalty for it. “From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed. For in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:5-6).

The 7th Commandment “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14) - appears to have been known and understood by Joseph in Genesis 39:7-9:
“And it came to pass after these things that his master’s wife cast longing eyes on Joseph, and she said, ‘Lie with me.’ But he refused and said to his master’s wife, ‘Look, my master does not know what is with me in the house, and he has committed all that he has to my hand. There is no one greater in this house than I, nor has he kept back anything from me but you, because you are his wife. How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?’

God also had warned Abimelech, king of Gerar, not to commit adultery with Sarah. “God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, ‘Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife’” (Genesis 20:3).

The 9th and 10th Commandments; “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” and, “You shall not covet” (Exodus 20:16-17), have been breached ever since Eve saw and coveted the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam ate of it as well (Genesis 3:6), and then both of them justified their actions (verses 10-13). The result of their disobedience to God was that they were kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

Job also knew that deceit and covetousness were sins against God: “If I have walked with falsehood, or if my foot has hastened to deceit, let me be weighed on honest scales, that God may know my integrity” (Job 31:5-6). Later, in verses 9-11, Job said, “If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door. … that would be wickedness; yes, it would be iniquity deserving of judgment.”

I've had to re-visit the source of this info Livia because it's a long time since I read it and the above is abridged from it, but I think it provides some evidence (some more tenuous than others) that at least some of God's laws were known prior to Mt Sinai.

As for who drafted the 10 Commandments? Well you are correct again. According to Judaism and Christianity, God did, but I posed my question in such a way because I wanted to elicit the thoughts of non-believers on the subject.

I want to encourage civilised debate on this thread because I believe (there goes that phrase again!) that this is a fascinating subject and I further believe that I can learn from other viewpoints.

Finally, you are also correct when you write:

"The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't."

Yet, this is just further substantiation of the points I tried to make in earlier posts; that we shouldn't blame 'God' for Man's evil.

Look no further than Traffic Lights and 'Sleeping Policemen' speed bumps when it comes to examples of Man and Law:

Humans are intelligent and learned, and as such, should be capable of driving sensibly and with reason. Yet, Man has also 'Free Will' and cannot be trusted to drive sensibly, so Man has drafted laws governing driving. Still, Man chooses to ignore these laws - even though though there are consequences for transgression. So Man implements Traffic Lights and Speed Bumps to help 'countermand' these transgressions. Despite this, there are still some people who choose to ignore speed bumps and speed over them, and others who choose to ignore Red Stop Lights and 'run' them anyway.

If the speedster should lose control of the car and it ploughs into a crowd of schoolchildren waiting to cross the road, or the 'red light runner' crashes into another car killing the occupants -- Is it the law giver's fault?

No. It is purely the fault of the one who chose to ignore the law.

It is no different with God's laws - the Commandments. The laws have been handed down to Man to ensure that by adherence to them, we not only attain personal spiritual 'heaven' when we pass on, but also that we enjoy the benefits of the 'utopian' society we will have created in this physical world whilst we are living.

it, it is hardly God's fault that we are incapable of complying.:wavey:

[Kyle]

Exodus 21:1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:
Hebrew Servants
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
…
20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Lev 25:1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai…

Lev 25:39 ” ‘If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 ” ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

47 ” ‘If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien’s clan, 48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly. 53 He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.

54 ” ‘Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

The bible permits slavery with direct commandments from God. The rules are somewhat complicated, with differences between Hebrews vs. gentiles and men vs. women. The verses above are not all the rules on slavery, but they are direct quotes from God if you believe the bible to be literal.

For Hebrews, slavery was a way to pay off a debt. After 6 years of work, a Hebrew slave would be set free in the year of Jubilee – as long as the slave is male. A father has the right to sell his daughter into slavery. Exodus 21:7-11 describe rules for selling a daughter as slave, but the verses seem to interchange female slavery and marriage.

Exodus 21:20-21 permit slave owners to beat their slaves so that they are unconscious for 2-3 days!

Leviticus 25:44-45 describes how gentile slaves are to be treated, which is very different from Hebrew slaves. Gentile slaves are not to be set free in the year of Jubillee but are passed from father to son as an inheritance.

There you go guys and girls. You can have slaves if you want. God wills it.

[Kyle]

Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

[Kyle]

“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

Know your place women.

[Kyle]

Genesis 3:16 - "To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.""

Yeh, that'll teach you.

[Kyle]

Genesis 6:6-7 - "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.""

[arista]

Genesis 6:6-7 - "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.""


Stop
its a Fable Book



There Is No God

[arista]

http://www.tropic-of-freedom-books.com/images/the-god-delusion.jpg

Kyle
this is the Book you need

[rubymoo]

Hi kyle, i've never read the bible and have no intention to do so, imo the book should have on it's first page "This book is fictional".

I believe the bible was made to scare humanity into submission, i have visions of shepherds sitting writing short stories on their hillsides whilst they watch over their sheep and that's it, i think i'm on the same page as you as far as the bible goes:laugh:

[Kyle]

http://www.tropic-of-freedom-books.com/images/the-god-delusion.jpg

Kyle
this is the Book you need

I Have the God delusion on audio Arista you're preaching to the wrong person here.

[Kyle]

Hi kyle, i've never read the bible and have no intention to do so, imo the book should have on it's first page "This book is fictional".

I believe the bible was made to scare humanity into submission, i have visions of shepherds sitting writing short stories on their hillsides whilst they watch over their sheep and that's it, i think i'm on the same page as you as far as the bible goes:laugh:

I've started reading the bible recently so I can really get an idea of what it's about (and also steal a few ideas for some creative writing I want to do because it is quite interesting :laugh:) and I'm currently about to go on to numbers and I'm not even gonna go into what I think of it so far because at the end of the day this is other people's faith we are talking about. Apparently Deuteronomy is where it gets particularly tasty though so I can't wait to delve into that.

[Jules2]

Well no, that does seem a karmaesque view :laugh: ( I invented a word)

In the same way people 'pray' people 'will' which is kind of like praying ... only you don't ask it of anyone or wish it.
Like attracts like if you put out good and positivity then you receive it, and if you don't? Then you get that back too... 'as ye sow' ' be careful what you wish for' all great old sayings that really do have a good basis in teaching prior to 'religion' as we know it to be.

Morning Kizzy, I agree totally with you.

There is a thought that we are made up of about 7 (I think) levels of understanding which are enacted on within the body. Starting from the kundilini (the lower organs) upwards we have the solar plexus, (the tummy button), the heart, the throat, the forehead, the head and according to the Kuhuna tribes there is another level which is above the head but way from it. This is supposedly our higher self, the part which enables us to unite with a higher force. It is female and male in unison, soulmates.

For us to gain a level of understanding we have to unite the lower, the middle and the upper. If we dwell on each one singularly along with another being we are in tune with that person. Thus to avoid the very basic we can uplift ourselves and then we do not attract the negativity of the other person. Gets complicated eh but I do understand what the theory is. At the same time we are protecting ourselves.

The solar plexus is an interesting one as this one is where we can tune into anothers feelings, we feel the emotion within our stomach.

Basically we are our own minute "Gods" and we can be in control of our own destiny to a certain extent. We can experience or not. When we pray the theory is that we are really praying to our highest self, the one which is outside of the body and which is in touch with the greater energy of life.

[Jules2]

I Have the God delusion on audio Arista you're preaching to the wrong person here.

Is it worth reading Kyle?

[Kyle]

Jules, I'd rather forget about my embarrassing part in the events that transpired yesterday so I haven't gone back through the pages but what was it you asked me to read from your blog?

[Jules2]

Stop
its a Fable Book



There Is No God

For me Arista I cannot imagine a "God" making something so precious and beautiful as the earth and the positive will of mankind. A true parent would have patience and try to teach. Mind you I guess if some wont listen and they go their own way but, at the end of the day, freewill was also invented much to the distress of the negativity of the world.

[Kyle]

Is it worth reading Kyle?

Honestly hand on heart I had difficulty following it. It was read partly by him and some woman who I assumed might have been his wife and I kept falling asleep cos I would lay in bed and listen.

Someone of a greater intellect than me would get more out of it than that's for sure so on that regard I would obviously recommend it on that part just for the fact you can see a different opinion from one of the world's most prominent atheist speakers. If you got it as a book I'm sure you would negate all the problems I had (got a low attention span so I can't read books :laugh:)

[Jules2]

Honestly hand on heart I had difficulty following it. It was read partly by him and some woman who I assumed might have been his wife and I kept falling asleep cos I would lay in bed and listen.

Someone of a greater intellect than me would get more out of it than that's for sure so on that regard I would obviously recommend it on that part just for the fact you can see a different opinion from one of the world's most prominent atheist speakers. If you got it as a book I'm sure you would negate all the problems I had (got a low attention span so I can't read books :laugh:)

Thanks Kyle.

[kirklancaster]

I've started reading the bible recently so I can really get an idea of what it's about (and also steal a few ideas for some creative writing I want to do because it is quite interesting :laugh:) and I'm currently about to go on to numbers and I'm not even gonna go into what I think of it so far because at the end of the day this is other people's faith we are talking about. Apparently Deuteronomy is where it gets particularly tasty though so I can't wait to delve into that.

You certainly know the Bible better than I do Kyle.

I accept that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and shocking passages, and I accept - or rather suspect - that because it is Man who 'writ down God's word' , and Man, who in the form of successive organized religions, has selectively edited the text, re-wrote great tracts of it, and destroyed other huge parts of the original vital testimony, that to blindly and literally believe the Bible in its entirety, is certainly folly.

I'm not a conventional Christian in the accepted sense of the word - I am not devout, don't go to Church, and I live as normal a life as I can.

Two of my three children do not even share my belief that Christ is the Messiah or therefore, that God exists in some form, because I have not imposed my beliefs upon them. I encouraged them to read philosophy and explore various belief systems and religions, for the same reason I impressed upon them the importance of a sound education, and they listened to me but then 'made up their own minds' about God and religion. Thank God (oops) that they also listened to me about education because all three have graduated from uni.

However, in defence of the Bible, or what remains of the original text after Man's chicanery, I would point out just a few of the increasingly more frequent examples where new archaeological discoveries are proving biblical assertions which the scientific world previously dismissed:

1. King David Inscription

Sceptics and Atheists always maintained that King David (of 'Once In Royal David's City' fame) never existed and was 'pure myth'. Until, that is July 1993 when a 'stele' fragment of basalt was unearthed by archaeologists which bore an inscription mentioning 'The House of David'. Two other discoveries cemented King David as a real historical figure with inscriptions mentioning; 'David' 'King of Israel' . These finds have been dated to the 8th or 9th Century BC and were the first non-biblical reference to a biblical figure.

2. The Baruch Bulla

A 'Bulla' is a hardened clay seal impression and hundreds have been discovered in the past 100 years or so, but one stand out bulla which appeared in 1970 contained the name and stamp of the biblical prophet Jeremiah's scribe.

Another bears the inscription "Belonging to Seraiah (ben) Neriah." and Seriah was the "chief chamberlain" in the court of King Zedekiah (Jer 51:59).

3.The Pontius Pilate Inscription

In 1961, a dedicatory stone bearing the an inscription: Tiberieum/[Pon]tius Pilatus/[Praef]ectus Iuda[eae], "Tiberius [the Roman emperor of the period]/Pontius Pilate/Prefect of Judea." was discovered during excavations in Caesarea Maritima.

Pilate was the governor of Roman Judea, under whose governance Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

4. Ossuary of Caiaphas

In the Bible, Caiaphas is the High Priest of The Sanhedrin whom Jesus was brought before for questioning, and in 1990 a tomb was discovered in Jerusalem which contained his ossuary.

(An ossuary is a stone box containing the bones of the deceased.)

5. The Pool at Shiloh

In 2004, the pool where Jesus performed the miracle of restoring a blind man's sight (Gospel of St John) was discovered by archaeologists digging south of the Temple Mount.

As stated, these are but a few of numerous archaeological discoveries which prove the Bible as so much more than a 'fictional book' (as one on here ridiculously claims.) Among these other discoveries are what is generally agreed to be the store cities 'Ramesess' and 'Pithon' of the Biblical Exodus - Store Cities which were hitherto denounced as myth by mainstream academics.

Personally, I absorb the parts of the Bible which I am logically persuaded by, and treat the rest with a degree of scepticism knowing that the hand of Man has been involved.

I am open minded but yet, cannot forget how I was taught 'Science' and 'History' by 'academics' in Grammar School. Part of these teachings dealt with how the coelacanth was as extinct as the Do-Do, and that the native American Indians were savages.

I have my reasons for believing in Jesus as the Christ and therefore God, and it has nothing to do with blind acceptance of 'fairy tales', or 'mumbo jumbo', but entirely to do with years of extensive research and study, cold analysis of the results of that research, and logical interpretation of the evidence and facts concerning Christ.

I believe what I believe, but will not, however, ever denigrate or lambaste any other person for not believing what I do, or for even believing in nothing at all.

To close, my post on the 10 Commandments was in specific answer to Livia's perfectly legitimate and civil query in her post, and was supplemental to my 'Food For Thought' post which prompted Livia's enquiry. It was not a blind acceptance of all biblical text as being 'literally true'.

I am grateful Kyle that you are approaching this complex subject with fairness even though you hold opposing views, because through civil, intelligent debate, we may both learn something.

[Kyle]

You certainly know the Bible better than I do Kyle.

I accept that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and shocking passages, and I accept - or rather suspect - that because it is Man who 'writ down God's word' , and Man, who in the form of successive organized religions, has selectively edited the text, re-wrote great tracts of it, and destroyed other huge parts of the original vital testimony, that to blindly and literally believe the Bible in its entirety, is certainly folly.

I'm not a conventional Christian in the accepted sense of the word - I am not devout, don't go to Church, and I live as normal a life as I can.

Two of my three children do not even share my belief that Christ is the Messiah or therefore, that God exists in some form, because I have not imposed my beliefs upon them. I encouraged them to read philosophy and explore various belief systems and religions, for the same reason I impressed upon them the importance of a sound education, and they listened to me but then 'made up their own minds' about God and religion. Thank God (oops) that they also listened to me about education because all three have graduated from uni.

However, in defence of the Bible, or what remains of the original text after Man's chicanery, I would point out just a few of the increasingly more frequent examples where new archaeological discoveries are proving biblical assertions which the scientific world previously dismissed:

1. King David Inscription

Sceptics and Atheists always maintained that King David (of 'Once In Royal David's City' fame) never existed and was 'pure myth'. Until, that is July 1993 when a 'stele' fragment of basalt was unearthed by archaeologists which bore an inscription mentioning 'The House of David'. Two other discoveries cemented King David as a real historical figure with inscriptions mentioning; 'David' 'King of Israel' . These finds have been dated to the 8th or 9th Century BC and were the first non-biblical reference to a biblical figure.

2. The Baruch Bulla

A 'Bulla' is a hardened clay seal impression and hundreds have been discovered in the past 100 years or so, but one stand out bulla which appeared in 1970 contained the name and stamp of the biblical prophet Jeremiah's scribe.

Another bears the inscription "Belonging to Seraiah (ben) Neriah." and Seriah was the "chief chamberlain" in the court of King Zedekiah (Jer 51:59).

3.The Pontius Pilate Inscription

In 1961, a dedicatory stone bearing the an inscription: Tiberieum/[Pon]tius Pilatus/[Praef]ectus Iuda[eae], "Tiberius [the Roman emperor of the period]/Pontius Pilate/Prefect of Judea." was discovered during excavations in Caesarea Maritima.

Pilate was the governor of Roman Judea, under whose governance Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

4. Ossuary of Caiaphas

In the Bible, Caiaphas is the High Priest of The Sanhedrin whom Jesus was brought before for questioning, and in 1990 a tomb was discovered in Jerusalem which contained his ossuary.

(An ossuary is a stone box containing the bones of the deceased.)

5. The Pool at Shiloh

In 2004, the pool where Jesus performed the miracle of restoring a blind man's sight (Gospel of St John) was discovered by archaeologists digging south of the Temple Mount.

As stated, these are but a few of numerous archaeological discoveries which prove the Bible as so much more than a 'fictional book' (as one on here ridiculously claims.) Among these other discoveries are what is generally agreed to be the store cities 'Ramesess' and 'Pithon' of the Biblical Exodus - Store Cities which were hitherto denounced as myth by mainstream academics.

Personally, I absorb the parts of the Bible which I am logically persuaded by, and treat the rest with a degree of scepticism knowing that the hand of Man has been involved.

I am open minded but yet, cannot forget how I was taught 'Science' and 'History' by 'academics' in Grammar School. Part of these teachings dealt with how the coelacanth was as extinct as the Do-Do, and that the native American Indians were savages.

I have my reasons for believing in Jesus as the Christ and therefore God, and it has nothing to do with blind acceptance of 'fairy tales', or 'mumbo jumbo', but entirely to do with years of extensive research and study, cold analysis of the results of that research, and logical interpretation of the evidence and facts concerning Christ.

I believe what I believe, but will not, however, ever denigrate or lambaste any other person for not believing what I do, or for even believing in nothing at all.

To close, my post on the 10 Commandments was in specific answer to Livia's perfectly legitimate and civil query in her post, and was supplemental to my 'Food For Thought' post which prompted Livia's enquiry. It was not a blind acceptance of all biblical text as being 'literally true'.

I am grateful Kyle that you are approaching this complex subject with fairness even though you hold opposing views, because through civil, intelligent debate, we may both learn something.

I understand this is a difficult topic to discuss because at the end of the day I have decided to read the bible only to pick it apart and absorb the (in my opinion) mythology surrounding it.

Personally I will always have difficulty understanding how some parts of the bible can be readily accepted and others thrown away as conjecture when it's all there in a book which the writers have given no indication of which bits are to be taken literally and which have just come from imagination. It's just so ambiguous I can completely understand how there are so many denominations which take whatever meaning they want from the scriptures and use it to further their agenda.

Some like Joseph Smith just completely add extra books and scripture on top of that and before we know it we have huge pockets of America that follow the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

To me, and certainly from what I've seen so far this is just completely jumbled up bad code which means hee haw to me and doesn't give me a clear understanding of what on earth I should be doing. That doesn't sound to me like a Very clever God but that's just my impressions so far.

[Jules2]

Kirk and Kyle you both put forward such great communication for us to consider, thank you both. You have put forward the two sides of the coin so where does it leave us?

Kirk I appreciate you very much but my views tend to be with Kyle, it is just great that we can all chat together and appreciate each others point of view. You have both gone to great levels to present your debate.

[Kyle]

I acknowledge Kirk certainly knows his sh*t. (Pardon my French :hehe:) We have also had very interesting discussions privately too which is absolutely fascinating.

[Kyle]

And to clarify, I mean he knows his stuff, not that it i think it's excrement or anything like that.

[Jules2]

I accept that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and shocking passages, and I accept - or rather suspect - that because it is Man who 'writ down God's word' , and Man, who in the form of successive organized religions, has selectively edited the text, re-wrote great tracts of it, and destroyed other huge parts of the original vital testimony, that to blindly and literally believe the Bible in its entirety, is certainly folly.

I'm not a conventional Christian in the accepted sense of the word - I am not devout, don't go to Church, and I live as normal a life as I can.

Two of my three children do not even share my belief that Christ is the Messiah or therefore, that God exists in some form, because I have not imposed my beliefs upon them. I encouraged them to read philosophy and explore various belief systems and religions, for the same reason I impressed upon them the importance of a sound education, and they listened to me but then 'made up their own minds' about God and religion. Thank God (oops) that they also listened to me about education because all three have graduated from uni.

However, in defence of the Bible, or what remains of the original text after Man's chicanery, I would point out just a few of the increasingly more frequent examples where new archaeological discoveries are proving biblical assertions which the scientific world previously dismissed:
.................................................. ......................................


To me Kirk, this is the trouble, much has been taken out especially re the more pagan side. It is said that reincarnation and karma are two of the follies, had they been left in man would possible have a different view in the Western side of life. Look how the so called witches were treated at the will of others, many people didnt even have any craft to talk about.

I believe that they (reincarnation and karma) are part and parcel of many cultures therefore giving access if so desired, to a greater understanding of the whys and wherefores. Naturally I may be totally wrong but this is what I feel at the moment.

Well done to you and your youngsters you must be very proud.

I am very interested in the archaeological findings, they do give us an insight to a past life.

[Jules2]

Hi Kirk and Kyle, have you ever studied the life of Jesus through the Essenes?

"At the time when the Master Jesus was present among his disciples, he had already named the Master St. John as the leader of and the person responsible for this inner and secret School. It is the Master St. John who was put in charge of teaching in this School and of ensuring that the exercises were done correctly.
Thereafter, the Master St. John continued his task, even after Jesus' departure. He remained faithful and opened inner Schools in most European countries. These Schools continued to exist in secret and have propagated themselves right up to our own time, keeping Christ's teaching pure, exactly as the Essenes had kept pure Moses' secret and authentic teaching. Today, parts of this Teaching and of its techniques are being extended to the outside world because a new time of harvesting and sowing has arrived."

This is interesting and this is how I see Jesus, I believe in him as a man but he studied at the Essenes. He had great mystical knowledge for it is a place of mysticism. I believe that he was crucified because the powers that be became wary of his knowledge and his teachings, they became afraid. He talks of the christ but to me the christ is within us all. His cry of "Lord why has though forsaken me" suggests that he had gone down to his lower level of thought but then he uplifted himself and put into play all his previous knowledge and faith.

Archaeology is putting forth great things of worth, many re the Egyptians and their way of life, the pyramids, why are they there? That which we find is truth but what was its purpose. Yes places existed we cannot deny it but is it proof? To me Jesus was a great man with a purpose in life. He tried to teach mankind how to survive for their own benefit, to think for themselves, to say the answers are within. x

[Jules2]

An interesting thought Jesus supposedly travelled to Glastonbury the hymn "and did those feet on ancient grounds" was written in honour of this. It is upheld in Glastonbury today and there is an inscription to this effect.

The only thing I would query was the travel.....how did he travel, is there any proof of this factor?

[Jules2]

"The Essenes recognized the equality of the sexes, and accorded to women, in the greatest secrecy, the place which was rightfully theirs. Thus, women were able to participate in all of the spiritual activities.
The Essenes studied an esoteric teaching on androgyny, which provided them with a perception of the soul beyond the dualistic conception of sex. The white-linen robe was a symbol of this vision of the soul's unity".

I love this bit as women through many of the ages have been thought to be inferiour to man, even now it is so in certain places and the mind of some men.

[Jules2]

".............It is in this state of mind, with great lucidity and a sublime love, that she consecrated her child to God at the very moment he came into the world. In this way, she accomplished the ancient rite and the secular vow of the Nazarites. Jesus was born as an Essene, and the Virgin, from that moment, deployed her will so that he would receive the education and the transmission of the spiritual laws issued by the fraternity. This is how, at the age of twelve, he was able to astonish all the priests of the temple of Jerusalem . Nevertheless, she made sure that he was educated by a dissident and non-dogmatic branch of the fraternity. In fact, there were two Essene communities: one external and official, and the other more internal and quiet. One finds the same aspect in Christianity: on one side, there is the church of St. Peter , which takes care of the external side and which is very dogmatic and rigid; and, on another side, the church of St. John , which seeks, in liberty and love, to live Christ's teaching from the inside.

This will of the Virgin to remove Jesus from the external community was very difficult to live with because that community wanted to gain possession of the child for reasons that are very easy to understand. Finally, through negotiations, the Virgin succeeded in keeping the child with her and having him educated by the dissident group. She succeeded in this thanks to the help of the angels who were with her and who protected the Master Jesus. The Essenes were sensitive to the angels and were used to obeying them.

It is the Essenes who taught the Master Jesus to eat, to walk, to speak, to read, to write, to pray, and to unite himself with the One With No Name, with the Father and the Mother of the world.

The Virgin made sure that his education would be intensive because she wanted him to be almost an adult at the age of seven before leaving with the angels. But, in fact, at the age of seven, he met his inner being, his divine source, the people of God, his angel of light who made him experience the divine world in its pure manifestation and reality.

The Virgin supported her son all the time and she believed, for many years, that he was an angel come to the earth".
.................................................. ............................

Mother Mary was supposedly born into the Essenes and as such brought her son up as part of their teachings.

[Jules2]

Do we believe in Angels, I have to admit that I do.........

"Archangel Gabriel

Gabriel is the Archangel connected to family, birth, and the mysteries of life within the soul and relations. He is found in the sacred texts of all religions. He is the Archangel who stood beside the Virgin Mary at the birth of Jesus.

He is connected to water in the Essene tradition:
- Water in nature: water from a source, water from a lake, water that gives life and quenches the thirst of Earth and man.
- Also, water in a more subtle aspect: a subtle water that runs between all beings through relations, exchanges and communication".

[Kizzy]

Now we seem to be getting somewhere :D it seems fitting that she would want some esoteric knowledge instilled in her child, not have his head rammed full of patriarchal fear laden text doesn't it?

So she in essence took her child out of 'assembly'.

I too believe in the theory of angels, due to the reproduction of imagery across the globe thousands of years before the birth of any prophet.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Kyle;7321668]

"I understand this is a difficult topic to discuss because at the end of the day I have decided to read the bible only to pick it apart and absorb the (in my opinion) mythology surrounding it."

I've no problem here Kyle - in fact I welcome it, because if you're reading, you're informed, and don't spout irrelevant bollox like some, even if you're contesting my viewpoint.

"Personally I will always have difficulty understanding how some parts of the bible can be readily accepted and others thrown away as conjecture when it's all there in a book which the writers have given no indication of which bits are to be taken literally and which have just come from imagination. It's just so ambiguous I can completely understand how there are so many denominations which take whatever meaning they want from the scriptures and use it to further their agenda."

The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years. During that time, various 'ruling bodies' have edited the original text to suit their own purpose. These range from the Roman's after Constantine's conversion to Christianity in 312 AD, to the latest alterations in the 2011 New International Version of the Bible (NIV), and then there may have been much text - the meaning of which has been 'lost in translation'.

I'm not too worried about any 'selective editing' though Kyle because I believe the 'essence' to be still basically intact, it's the text which has been removed and destroyed over the years which I'm pissed about - think what might have been there.

I don't even think there are many instances in the Bible which involve imagination - just attempts by relatively primitive man to convey in his own language real experiences which fell beyond the parameters of his knowledge and vocabulary.

"Some like Joseph Smith just completely add extra books and scripture on top of that and before we know it we have huge pockets of America that follow the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

With no offense intended to people of Mormon and Islamic persuasion, there is no independent corroboration of the 'divine' revelations which Joseph Smith - like the 'Prophet' Mohammed - claimed. We have only their word themselves that what happened actually happened.

Smith experienced his 'visions', when completely alone - first in a secluded wood in 1820 and later - again alone - when visited by an angel he called 'Moroni' in 1823.

Mohammed experienced a vision of the archangel Gabriel, who proclaimed him a prophet of God. whilst meditating in a cave outside of Mecca completely alone.

There is a lot more evidence which casts serious doubt as to the claims of both Smith, but especially Mohammed, but that's another story.

Suffice it to say that I examined these religions (among others) a long time ago and rejected them in favour of Jesus Christ for whom there is overwhelming evidence that he lived and died on the cross and very persuasive evidence from numerous contemporary sources that he resurrected. As incredible as it may seem to 'modern man' there is also what I regard as compelling forensic evidence to substantiate Christ's resurrection, but that also is another story.

"To me, and certainly from what I've seen so far this is just completely jumbled up bad code which means hee haw to me and doesn't give me a clear understanding of what on earth I should be doing. That doesn't sound to me like a Very clever God but that's just my impressions so far."

I'm being deadly sincere now Kyle; I can't blame you for being confused. I know from years of reading (worse now since the advent of the internet) that as soon as you read one 'authority' who makes claims as being 'Gospel' and feel swayed, you read another 'authority' who debunks the first authority and makes polar opposite claims as being 'Gospel'. It takes a hell of a lot of following up, cross referencing and digesting and analysing before you can reach any sort of conclusion which you feel satisfied by - if ever.

I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone and the subject is far too complex for me to comprehensively relate even my tiny knowledge for me to try to convince.

All that I am saying is that I am a normal, ordinary Yorkshire man born to working class parents of no religious persuasion, and I do not 'leap in' to anything without satisfying myself that it makes sense to do so. I experienced a 'catalyst' which convinced me that there was more to this (otherwise futile) existence than procreating and getting pissed, and I set off in search of answers.

Keep reading Kyle, you might surprise yourself and find some answers to questions you haven't even asked out loud.:wavey:

[InOne]

Someone should throw a word in for Polytheists. It's funny how the debate always leads back to the concept of one God. As this that's somehow less ridiculous than there being many Gods.

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=Kyle;7321668]

"I understand this is a difficult topic to discuss because at the end of the day I have decided to read the bible only to pick it apart and absorb the (in my opinion) mythology surrounding it."

I've no problem here Kyle - in fact I welcome it, because if you're reading, you're informed, and don't spout irrelevant bollox like some, even if you're contesting my viewpoint.

"Personally I will always have difficulty understanding how some parts of the bible can be readily accepted and others thrown away as conjecture when it's all there in a book which the writers have given no indication of which bits are to be taken literally and which have just come from imagination. It's just so ambiguous I can completely understand how there are so many denominations which take whatever meaning they want from the scriptures and use it to further their agenda."

The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years. During that time, various 'ruling bodies' have edited the original text to suit their own purpose. These range from the Roman's after Constantine's conversion to Christianity in 312 AD, to the latest alterations in the 2011 New International Version of the Bible (NIV), and then there may have been much text - the meaning of which has been 'lost in translation'.

I'm not too worried about any 'selective editing' though Kyle because I believe the 'essence' to be still basically intact, it's the text which has been removed and destroyed over the years which I'm pissed about - think what might have been there.

I don't even think there are many instances in the Bible which involve imagination - just attempts by relatively primitive man to convey in his own language real experiences which fell beyond the parameters of his knowledge and vocabulary.

"Some like Joseph Smith just completely add extra books and scripture on top of that and before we know it we have huge pockets of America that follow the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

With no offense intended to people of Mormon and Islamic persuasion, there is no independent corroboration of the 'divine' revelations which Joseph Smith - like the 'Prophet' Mohammed - claimed. We have only their word themselves that what happened actually happened.

Smith experienced his 'visions', when completely alone - first in a secluded wood in 1820 and later - again alone - when visited by an angel he called 'Moroni' in 1823.

Mohammed experienced a vision of the archangel Gabriel, who proclaimed him a prophet of God. whilst meditating in a cave outside of Mecca completely alone.

There is a lot more evidence which casts serious doubt as to the claims of both Smith, but especially Mohammed, but that's another story.

Suffice it to say that I examined these religions (among others) a long time ago and rejected them in favour of Jesus Christ for whom there is overwhelming evidence that he lived and died on the cross and very persuasive evidence from numerous contemporary sources that he resurrected. As incredible as it may seem to 'modern man' there is also what I regard as compelling forensic evidence to substantiate Christ's resurrection, but that also is another story.

"To me, and certainly from what I've seen so far this is just completely jumbled up bad code which means hee haw to me and doesn't give me a clear understanding of what on earth I should be doing. That doesn't sound to me like a Very clever God but that's just my impressions so far."

I'm being deadly sincere now Kyle; I can't blame you for being confused. I know from years of reading (worse now since the advent of the internet) that as soon as you read one 'authority' who makes claims as being 'Gospel' and feel swayed, you read another 'authority' who debunks the first authority and makes polar opposite claims as being 'Gospel'. It takes a hell of a lot of following up, cross referencing and digesting and analysing before you can reach any sort of conclusion which you feel satisfied by - if ever.

I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone and the subject is far too complex for me to comprehensively relate even my tiny knowledge for me to try to convince.

All that I am saying is that I am a normal, ordinary Yorkshire man born to working class parents of no religious persuasion, and I do not 'leap in' to anything without satisfying myself that it makes sense to do so. I experienced a 'catalyst' which convinced me that there was more to this (otherwise futile) existence than procreating and getting pissed, and I set off in search of answers.

Keep reading Kyle, you might surprise yourself and find some answers to questions you haven't even asked out loud.:wavey:

Over the years I've read huge chunks of it too, enough to make an informed opinion that it isn't for me.
I'm sure anyone schooled here has had enough stuffed down their throats at their 'institutions of learning' to get a grasp of Christian ideology too.

'The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years.' which bible are you referring to here?

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7321969][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7321944]

Over the years I've read huge chunks of it too, enough to make an informed opinion that it isn't for me.

That's your prerogative. I've never stated otherwise.

I'm sure anyone schooled here has had enough stuffed down their throats at their 'institutions of learning' to get a grasp of Christian ideology too.

Then don't subscribe to this interchange of views between Kyle and myself. For myself, I attended schools with Religious Education and Assembly, but i never had anything 'stuffed down my throat' because I wasn't interested in it so didn't think about it, let alone believed in it at the time.

'The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years.' which bible are you referring to here?

I'm referring to the Christian/Judeo Bible:

]Christianity Stack Exchange[/B]
We don't know exactly when the books of the Bible were written, but we can, through cross-referencing external sources, determine when the historical figures in the Bible lived. Either way, the common consensus is that the writing of the books of the Bible began some time after 1500 BC, and concluded prior to 100 AD. This would be a period of about 1600 years.

Biblica

The Bible was not written in one specific year or in a single location. The Bible is a collection of writings, and the earliest ones were set down nearly 3500 years ago.The New Testament was written during a much shorter period, i.e. during the last half of the first century AD.

Got Questions Kidz

The Bible was written over about 1,500 years from 1400 BC to AD 90.

Minster Book

When was the Bible written?

It was written over a period of some 1,500 years, from around 1450 B.C. (the time of Moses) to about 100 A.D. (following the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ).

Bible Bell

As to when "pen was put to paper," the oldest book (Job) was written c. 2150 BC. The youngest book (Revelation) was written c. 90 AD.
Thus, it took about 2200 years to write the 66 books of the Bible.

Thank you for your comments.

[kirklancaster]

Someone should throw a word in for Polytheists. It's funny how the debate always leads back to the concept of one God. As this that's somehow less ridiculous than there being many Gods.

I agree InOne, why don't you 'start the ball rolling'? It's 'leading back to the concept of one God because the only people who are currently exchanging views are discussing that subject.

As a Monotheist, I cannot entertain the notion of polytheism, but I'll willing listen (so to speak) to your views.

[InOne]

I agree InOne, why don't you 'start the ball rolling'? It's 'leading back to the concept of one God because the only people who are currently exchanging views are discussing that subject.

As a Monotheist, I cannot entertain the notion of polytheism, but I'll willing listen (so to speak) to your views.

I don't believe in any of it but I was just noting there's never long winded debates on the internet over Polytheism. It's always Christianity or Islam. I guess though that#s cos they shout the loudest.

[kirklancaster]

Hi Kirk and Kyle, have you ever studied the life of Jesus through the Essenes?

"At the time when the Master Jesus was present among his disciples, he had already named the Master St. John as the leader of and the person responsible for this inner and secret School. It is the Master St. John who was put in charge of teaching in this School and of ensuring that the exercises were done correctly.
Thereafter, the Master St. John continued his task, even after Jesus' departure. He remained faithful and opened inner Schools in most European countries. These Schools continued to exist in secret and have propagated themselves right up to our own time, keeping Christ's teaching pure, exactly as the Essenes had kept pure Moses' secret and authentic teaching. Today, parts of this Teaching and of its techniques are being extended to the outside world because a new time of harvesting and sowing has arrived."

This is interesting and this is how I see Jesus, I believe in him as a man but he studied at the Essenes. He had great mystical knowledge for it is a place of mysticism. I believe that he was crucified because the powers that be became wary of his knowledge and his teachings, they became afraid. He talks of the christ but to me the christ is within us all. His cry of "Lord why has though forsaken me" suggests that he had gone down to his lower level of thought but then he uplifted himself and put into play all his previous knowledge and faith.

Archaeology is putting forth great things of worth, many re the Egyptians and their way of life, the pyramids, why are they there? That which we find is truth but what was its purpose. Yes places existed we cannot deny it but is it proof? To me Jesus was a great man with a purpose in life. He tried to teach mankind how to survive for their own benefit, to think for themselves, to say the answers are within. x

I'm fascinated by your posts on this Jules. I'm familiar with some long-standing theories that Jesus was an Essene, but nothing which has had the wealth of detail in your posts. What is your source?

[kirklancaster]

I don't believe in any of it but I was just noting there's never long winded debates on the internet over Polytheism. It's always Christianity or Islam. I guess though that#s cos they shout the loudest.

No problem InOne, though it may be because Polytheists are either thin on the ground, disinterested in airing their views, or both.

[InOne]

No problem InOne, though it may be because Polytheists are either thin on the ground, disinterested in airing their views, or both.

Possibly. But the harder Monotheists try they don't seem to get any closer to proving there's a God at all.

[kirklancaster]

Possibly. But the harder Monotheists try they don't seem to get any closer to proving there's a God at all.

Yep - it all comes down to Faith in the end.

[Livia]

There is no 'bible' as it were for pagans but the law of the universe is that if you will bad things to happen to someone don't be surprised if they are inadvertently attracted to you spewing all that negative energy....
The hearth and the home are sacred to many people it's not only to those who follow a set path.
Where is it written that prior to the 10 commandments there was disorder?
Without wisdom there is chaos, laws are made to manipulate the masses and not always for the good of mankind.

All that "rule of three" and "hearth and home" stuff isn't anything to do with real Paganism and everything to do with modern Wicca which as we know has been made up in bits and pieces over the last hundred years or so with bits borrowed from other more ancient religions, Celtic, Norse etc.. And no, there is no "bible" for Pagans because the religion was virtually wiped out by the Catholics about four hundred years ago. Same goes for Druidism. There are lots of books, lots of papers... but they're all safely tucked away in the Vatican. There is dark and light in everything, people are good and bad... don't imagine for a minute that people who think they're witches are all good and positive.

If you read the story of how the Ten Commandments came to be you wouldn't have to ask why I think there was disorder before then, but the laws were applicable to the Jews at that time.

Human beings can't exist without laws. It isn't laws that make people bad, it's their nature. As for laws being made just to manipulate the masses, that's a comment that could only come from someone living in a country where law and order is taken completely for granted.

[Livia]

Exodus 21:1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:
Hebrew Servants
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
…
20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Lev 25:1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai…

Lev 25:39 ” ‘If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 ” ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

47 ” ‘If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien’s clan, 48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly. 53 He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.

54 ” ‘Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

The bible permits slavery with direct commandments from God. The rules are somewhat complicated, with differences between Hebrews vs. gentiles and men vs. women. The verses above are not all the rules on slavery, but they are direct quotes from God if you believe the bible to be literal.

For Hebrews, slavery was a way to pay off a debt. After 6 years of work, a Hebrew slave would be set free in the year of Jubilee – as long as the slave is male. A father has the right to sell his daughter into slavery. Exodus 21:7-11 describe rules for selling a daughter as slave, but the verses seem to interchange female slavery and marriage.

Exodus 21:20-21 permit slave owners to beat their slaves so that they are unconscious for 2-3 days!

Leviticus 25:44-45 describes how gentile slaves are to be treated, which is very different from Hebrew slaves. Gentile slaves are not to be set free in the year of Jubillee but are passed from father to son as an inheritance.

There you go guys and girls. You can have slaves if you want. God wills it.


At the risk of repeating myself, because I've said this on another thread when someone was cutting and pasting Leviticus... you have to think about when 613 Mitzvot, or Commandments, were written. It was normal to own slaves back then. It was fine to own slaves up until about 200 years ago in this country! Do we think it's okay now? No we don't. Do we think we should be killed for planting two different grains in one field, or for wearing two different fabrics on our body, or for cutting our hair? No, of course not. You have to interpret the laws - as a lawyer, let me tell you, laws are interpreted every day - and you have to think about what those interpretations mean. You cannot say that you will live to the letter of these laws because it is impossible to live a good, responsible, happy, lawful life if you think that these ancient rules must be taken literally. No one takes the Bible literally unless they are a fool.

it's never good for me to see my faith reduced to a series of incoherent cut and paste jobs with an air of ridicule running through it. I do hope that's not the way this thread will be going.

[Kyle]

At the risk of repeating myself, because I've said this on another thread when someone was cutting and pasting Leviticus... you have to think about when 613 Mitzvot, or Commandments, were written. It was normal to own slaves back then. It was fine to own slaves up until about 200 years ago in this country! Do we think it's okay now? No we don't. Do we think we should be killed for planting two different grains in one field, or for wearing two different fabrics on our body, or for cutting our hair? No, of course not. You have to interpret the laws - as a lawyer, let me tell you, laws are interpreted every day - and you have to think about what those interpretations mean. You cannot say that you will live to the letter of these laws because it is impossible to live a good, responsible, happy, lawful life if you think that these ancient rules must be taken literally. No one takes the Bible literally unless they are a fool.

it's never good for me to see my faith reduced to a series of incoherent cut and paste jobs with an air of ridicule running through it. I do hope that's not the way this thread will be going.

Ah the old moral relativism argument. Well if something is applicable then and not now Then obviously the word of God is subjective and not objective as it's open to change and no longer immutable or perfect. Kinda screws up his omniscience though if he didn't see it coming that in the modern era we live in we frown on slavery. Oh well.

And play the persecution card if ya like. I am thankful I live in a day and age where I can question things like the bible without been noosed up as an infidel.

[Jules2]

I'm fascinated by your posts on this Jules. I'm familiar with some long-standing theories that Jesus was an Essene, but nothing which has had the wealth of detail in your posts. What is your source?

Google....:laugh: I put in Jesus and the Essenes. There is a lot there and it seems as though many of the Great Masters went through this mystical order. Mary Magdalen was one and it is said that she was the wife of Jesus (have read this before) and she in turn received the Christ Spirit and became a great teacher herself. I have spent quite a bit of time reading this afternoon, have quite enjoyed myself. As we know one link leads to another. There is a free booklet but I also purchased 4 other downloads.


http://www.essenespirit.com/principles.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

[Jules2]

Jules, I'd rather forget about my embarrassing part in the events that transpired yesterday so I haven't gone back through the pages but what was it you asked me to read from your blog?

LOL my little piece on santa clause and Reubens the Royal. Amongst the serious pieces I was having a bit of fun to keep the blog lighthearted.

[Livia]

Ah the old moral relativism argument. Well if something is applicable then and not now Then obviously the word of God is subjective and not objective as it's open to change and no longer immutable or perfect. Kinda screws up his omniscience though if he didn't see it coming that in the modern era we live in we frown on slavery. Oh well.

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

[Marsh.]

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

:flutter:

[user104658]

Human beings can't exist without laws. It isn't laws that make people bad, it's their nature. As for laws being made just to manipulate the masses, that's a comment that could only come from someone living in a country where law and order is taken completely for granted.

I personally think that this is nonsense. All other creatures manage to exist without laws and have done throughout history - most only "ceasing to exist" because of the ever increasing number of humans.

And that's the real issue. Humans, in small communities, in small numbers as we really should exist, are more than capable of existing without laws. The problems only start to arise when too many of us start to try to exist within too small a space, with limited resources. You can see this in action in the modern world quite easily. Small, remote communities need very few rules or laws to exist relatively peacefully. A city like London needs many or it will decend into chaos.

Our only real problem is that we're too clever. Our intelligence over lesser animals makes us resilient... it makes survival easy... and that's why the global population is increasing at a rate of nearly 100 million every year. Too many people, not enough planet. That is the ONLY reason we "need" laws to avoid chaos. If there was a global population of something like 50 million humans, spread fairly evenly, living in close-knit communities, the letter of the law would be all but obsolete. Unfortunately... we're approaching 7 billion of us, swarming like ants and breeding like rabbits. That is why we "need" law and order. To keep the heaving masses of us in line.

Of course, funnily enough, the more organised religions with stricter commandments and doctrines started to mysteriously appear at around the time that masses of humans were starting to band into larger towns and cities...

[Bluerang1]

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

Slay a bit

[Kizzy]

All that "rule of three" and "hearth and home" stuff isn't anything to do with real Paganism and everything to do with modern Wicca which as we know has been made up in bits and pieces over the last hundred years or so with bits borrowed from other more ancient religions, Celtic, Norse etc.. And no, there is no "bible" for Pagans because the religion was virtually wiped out by the Catholics about four hundred years ago. Same goes for Druidism. There are lots of books, lots of papers... but they're all safely tucked away in the Vatican. There is dark and light in everything, people are good and bad... don't imagine for a minute that people who think they're witches are all good and positive.

If you read the story of how the Ten Commandments came to be you wouldn't have to ask why I think there was disorder before then, but the laws were applicable to the Jews at that time.

Human beings can't exist without laws. It isn't laws that make people bad, it's their nature. As for laws being made just to manipulate the masses, that's a comment that could only come from someone living in a country where law and order is taken completely for granted.

I only mentioned the rule of three to scott.. because he likes craft.

The hearth of the home is very important to pagans actually, I have no wish to be categorised as this or that thank you, your take on history is not that accurate either as there are still practicing druids.
I have no idea what is locked in the vatican, the true number of crimes committed in the name of Catholicism maybe?

I have never said there shouldn't be laws... however making up laws and passing them of as the words of 'god'? that's sinful.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

yaaaaaaaas.gif

[Kizzy]

After all the years of scholars more intelligent than us, poring over texts and coming up with nothing that will satisfactorily silence those who are only here to scoff, I'm not sure any of us on this thread is going to come up with something that will satisfy everyone. And just because you consider something to be "the old moral relativism argument../." does not mean that it's beneath contempt and dismissible anywhere but in your own head.

You can think what you like about my faith, and I'll think what I like about your interpretation of it. I know what I feel and what I believe. You've only just developed an interest in the Old Testament and yet here you are thinking you have all the answers. To use your own quote... oh well.

Where has he said he has 'all the answers'? nowhere.

Scholars know as much as you or I as like you and I they were not there.
And the interpretations by the differing faiths mindblowingly complex and contradictory.
It's not about coming up with something, it's appreciating diversity, the meaning of life is never going to be the same for one person as another and smelting it down to who is the most devout is pointless as nobody knows * for certain* what the 'true path' if ever there indeed was one is.

[Marsh.]

"Forgive kizzy Lord, for she knows not what she does" :worry:

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7321969][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7321944]

Over the years I've read huge chunks of it too, enough to make an informed opinion that it isn't for me.

That's your prerogative. I've never stated otherwise.

I'm sure anyone schooled here has had enough stuffed down their throats at their 'institutions of learning' to get a grasp of Christian ideology too.

Then don't subscribe to this interchange of views between Kyle and myself. For myself, I attended schools with Religious Education and Assembly, but i never had anything 'stuffed down my throat' because I wasn't interested in it so didn't think about it, let alone believed in it at the time.

'The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years.' which bible are you referring to here?

I'm referring to the Christian/Judeo Bible:

]Christianity Stack Exchange[/B]
We don't know exactly when the books of the Bible were written, but we can, through cross-referencing external sources, determine when the historical figures in the Bible lived. Either way, the common consensus is that the writing of the books of the Bible began some time after 1500 BC, and concluded prior to 100 AD. This would be a period of about 1600 years.

Biblica

The Bible was not written in one specific year or in a single location. The Bible is a collection of writings, and the earliest ones were set down nearly 3500 years ago.The New Testament was written during a much shorter period, i.e. during the last half of the first century AD.

Got Questions Kidz

The Bible was written over about 1,500 years from 1400 BC to AD 90.

Minster Book

When was the Bible written?

It was written over a period of some 1,500 years, from around 1450 B.C. (the time of Moses) to about 100 A.D. (following the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ).

Bible Bell

As to when "pen was put to paper," the oldest book (Job) was written c. 2150 BC. The youngest book (Revelation) was written c. 90 AD.
Thus, it took about 2200 years to write the 66 books of the Bible.

Thank you for your comments.

It's not a private debate between kyle and yourself is it?

You were only 1200yrs out on when the bible was written then? that's reassuring. It's becoming a piece that some cherrypick from and manipulate to suit their own agenda, the whole of the King James editions for instance..
The messages the real messages are lost... gone.
What we have left is a mish mash of rehashed rules and regulations that make little or no sense... or their so screamingly obvious that you don't have to be a practicing a religion to know not to do them as they are morally wrong.
And we all have a conscience don't we? Free will?

[Kizzy]

"Forgive kizzy Lord, for she knows not what she does" :worry:

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/pictures/immaculate_heart.jpg

Can't touch me, I'm the immaculate heart innit?

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

yas @ wicca being being mentioned though

easily the best religion

[the truth]

At the risk of repeating myself, because I've said this on another thread when someone was cutting and pasting Leviticus... you have to think about when 613 Mitzvot, or Commandments, were written. It was normal to own slaves back then. It was fine to own slaves up until about 200 years ago in this country! Do we think it's okay now? No we don't. Do we think we should be killed for planting two different grains in one field, or for wearing two different fabrics on our body, or for cutting our hair? No, of course not. You have to interpret the laws - as a lawyer, let me tell you, laws are interpreted every day - and you have to think about what those interpretations mean. You cannot say that you will live to the letter of these laws because it is impossible to live a good, responsible, happy, lawful life if you think that these ancient rules must be taken literally. No one takes the Bible literally unless they are a fool.

it's never good for me to see my faith reduced to a series of incoherent cut and paste jobs with an air of ridicule running through it. I do hope that's not the way this thread will be going.


agreed, the cheap shots against Religion are pathetic, so many anti religious haters, or atheists know little or nothing of theology and take bits and pieces of works and tales way out of context to support their agenda. I also agree the tendency to take everything far too literally is frankly moronic. such people need to heavily medicated

[Marsh.]

yas @ wicca being being mentioned though

easily the best religion

I bet you don't know about wicca you just enjoy watching the Craft. :smug:

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

oh

[kirklancaster]

"Forgive kizzy Lord, for she knows not what she does" :worry:

Nor understandeth what she sayeth:hehe:

[Kizzy]

I bet you don't know about wicca you just enjoy watching the Craft. :smug:

:joker:

[Kizzy]

Nor understandeth what she sayeth:hehe:

What are you having trouble with my son?....

[kirklancaster]

yas @ wicca being being mentioned though

easily the best religion

I used to love Wicca:

"This sprawling metropolis which has resisted..."

Sorry Scott, that's Whicker I'm thinking of - Alan Whicker. :hehe:

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

bye

[Marsh.]

http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/wicker-chair.jpg

[kirklancaster]

http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/wicker-chair.jpg

FK me -- Peed meself again:joker::joker::joker:

[Kizzy]

agreed, the cheap shots against Religion are pathetic, so many anti religious haters, or atheists know little or nothing of theology and take bits and pieces of works and tales way out of context to support their agenda. I also agree the tendency to take everything far too literally is frankly moronic. such people need to heavily medicated

Whose gospel is that?! :eek:

[Marsh.]

FK me -- Peed meself again:joker::joker::joker:

I hope you had a tena lady handy. :fan:

[Marsh.]

Whose gospel is that?! :eek:

"The Truth, Post 416, 14 10 14"

[the truth]

Whose gospel is that?! :eek:

the gospel of the truth

[Kizzy]

Is your god the vengeful one or the meek one?

[the truth]

Is your god the vengeful one or the meek one?

God has a capital G for starters

[kirklancaster]

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/pictures/immaculate_heart.jpg

Can't touch me, I'm the immaculate heart innit?

Ridicule is the first and last argument of a fool.
Charles Simmons

[Kizzy]

God has a capital G for starters

How about I call him the big G? G man? the G meister?

[the truth]

How about I call him the big G? G man? the G meister?

nah but you can name yourself a predictably tedious attention seeker

[Kizzy]

Ridicule is the first and last argument of a fool.
Charles Simmons

'Nor understandeth what she sayeth'

The scoffer, the worst form of fool, is not only to be avoided, but is to be driven away.

Drive out the scoffer, and contention will go out, Even strife and dishonor will cease (22:10).

[Kizzy]

nah but you can name yourself a predictably tedious attention seeker

I'm a truth seeker, but now I've found you I want to lose you again.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

nah but you can name yourself a predictably tedious attention seeker

omg slay hun

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7322953][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7322008][QUOTE=Kizzy;7321969]

"It's not a private debate between kyle and yourself is it?"

No, but until your intervention it was a serious and respectful debate without a trace of ridicule from either participant.

"You were only 1200yrs out on when the bible was written then? that's reassuring. It's becoming a piece that some cherrypick from and manipulate to suit their own agenda, the whole of the King James editions for instance."


Your pedanticism is redundant and misplaced, because I actually qualified my statement by the inclusion of the word; "about".

"The messages the real messages are lost... gone.
What we have left is a mish mash of rehashed rules and regulations that make little or no sense... or their so screamingly obvious that you don't have to be a practicing a religion to know not to do them as they are morally wrong.
And we all have a conscience don't we? Free will?"

This last really puzzles me, because you quote my post, yet nowhere in my post do I address any of the points you have commented on. Therefore, your assertions in this last emboldened section are out of context and - again - misplaced and redundant. You might as well be commenting on the mating habits of Nicaraguan dwarfs.

[kirklancaster]

'Nor understandeth what she sayeth'

The scoffer, the worst form of fool, is not only to be avoided, but is to be driven away.

Drive out the scoffer, and contention will go out, Even strife and dishonor will cease (22:10).

Nice quote -- The only trouble is that nowhere did I scoff. That's quite patently been your practice and transparently - by the phrasing of your posts on this thread - been your intent.

In fact, since you joined, it is has now moved away from a serious interchange of views by earnest participants, and is, once again, descending into ludicrous banality verging on an exchanging of personal insults. Therefore Goodnight, I will participate no more.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

i am slain

[kirklancaster]

i am slain

Wow -- A message from beyond the grave. Proof of the afterlife at last.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

i love you kirklancaster

[kirklancaster]

i love you kirklancaster

I reciprocate Scott. :hug:

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

*we've only just begun plays*

[kirklancaster]

*we've only just begun plays*

:joker::joker::joker:

[Ammi]

..I agree with Livia in that it's about what we feel ourselves and about interpretations as well..I think that religion is like anything in that there is 'good' or 'bad' that we can take from most things..and also our own personal faiths/beliefs/philosophies/'meanings' etc can't be 'proven' as such because they are just 'feelings'...with 'non believers' as in scientists etc though, they may hold no religious beliefs and only believe in the 'proven', the 'science' of it..but surely there is still something in their lives that can't be 'proven' which they do believe in..?..maybe they believe in love because they have experienced it but it's just a 'feeling'..they believe in sadness/in anger etc..because they 'feel them' or have felt them/experienced them but you can't 'prove' them..I'm sure there are also scientists who spend their lifetimes trying to prove what is their own personal theories on something but never do, so in essence that thing never 'existed' for them yet it was something that they believed to be true..a 'faith'...or if they were to get married and make a vow..?...'for the rest of out lives'...it's a belief/a 'leap of faith' in something that is an uncertainty....


..anyway, I'm just going to go back the school thing because it's something that while I agree that it's wrong to 'indoctrinate' and I'm sure that happens in some schools but that for me would be an 'extreme', whereas there are many, many schools who 'take the good, the positive' of religion and apply it/interpret it in a way that helps children to understand things like empathy, tolerance and understandings etc..'the thought of others'...I was just thinking this morning about the most recent example of the 'good' of something which is 'church' related..this was the Harvest celebration which we hold in church/very much church related...something that we as a school and also the Vicar talk to the children about before they have their assembly and they bring in something/produce to be given to local shelters for homeless etc in a way of..'well, most of us are ok because we have families/parents who care for us/feed us..have nice warm houses etc..but what about those who don't/who aren't so fortunate..?..and teaching them to see 'beyond' and feel empathy for others...because from a very young age, it's something that is a 'positive lesson'...much the same as with charities we support, which the children choose themselves..in doing that, they research/gain knowledge/understanding/tolerance etc and things that help them to 'grow'...maybe something that could help give their lives 'meaning'..?..

...but it's much in the same way that we also acknowledge non religious things also..for instance, we respect and acknowledge the silence of Remembrance Day and for those who have died for something they believed in/had faith in...'to provoke thoughts of those who whose lives were different' and less fortunate...


..there are lots of things in life that will 'work' for some and not for others and bring positive things in their lives and with that, those positive things will be felt by the people around them/the people they care about and maybe even more than that..I believe in certain things like CBT..I believe in it because it's something that has been a big part of my life and something that has worked for me personally at a time when I needed it but there would be others who it wouldn't work for at all because we're all different..so for them 'it doesn't exist' as a 'life philosophy' or something that has any meaning in their lives but it does exist because it does exist for some people and they have 'faith' in it...religion can bring and does bring positives to people's lives and those positives can effect other things and other people as well as themselves so that's very 'real'..if it brings prejudices/intolerances and negatives as well, then that's that person's own interpretations...in lots of people's lives/most people's lives there is fairly much a lot of rubbish that will bring you down to a low place as well as the good stuff and whether it be a religious faith/a therapy/family, friends/medication etc..it's just drawing on what helps for that person, no matter what that is...


...anyway, because it's coming up to that time of year again, I was also thinking about the 'meaning' of Christmas and I guess back to the 'feeling' which also made me think about World War 1 with the Christmas Day Truce which for me shows the 'feeling' of Christmas Day so well ..there are people who don't 'believe' in Christmas at all and that can be for very good reasons or personal experience to them and it can be a time of great sadness for some people..'the worst time of the year'...there are people who believe in it as a day of celebrating a birth of 'Christ'..or a belief in Father Christmas of gifts etc...for me personally and I think probably lots of others, it's a 'feel good thing' as well as other stuff ..a time where it feels as though people are a little more thoughtful..?..where there is excitement about buying gifts for the people we care about/seeing the excitement of our children, lots of good things apart from the shopping bit...maybe not related to the topic at all but for me it is in that it takes the positive from something and creates a good feeling for a lot of people because of the interpretations they themselves have of it..and for me personally, it is all to do with interpretations...if religion is interpreted as intolerances and prejudice, it's because of the person interpreting it and not the religion itself....


..so anyway, lots of morning thoughts...

[lostalex]

Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

but gay men don't have sex with women, so really this is just against bisexuals.

[kirklancaster]

For me Arista I cannot imagine a "God" making something so precious and beautiful as the earth and the positive will of mankind. A true parent would have patience and try to teach. Mind you I guess if some wont listen and they go their own way but, at the end of the day, freewill was also invented much to the distress of the negativity of the world.

Jules; God gave Man the Commandments, Scriptures and prophets to "try to teach". When Man still refused to learn, he gave Man his only son to reiterate those teachings and Man crucified him for his troubles.

[kirklancaster]

..I agree with Livia in that it's about what we feel ourselves and about interpretations as well..I think that religion is like anything in that there is 'good' or 'bad' that we can take from most things..and also our own personal faiths/beliefs/philosophies/'meanings' etc can't be 'proven' as such because they are just 'feelings'...with 'non believers' as in scientists etc though, they may hold no religious beliefs and only believe in the 'proven', the 'science' of it..but surely there is still something in their lives that can't be 'proven' which they do believe in..?..maybe they believe in love because they have experienced it but it's just a 'feeling'..they believe in sadness/in anger etc..because they 'feel them' or have felt them/experienced them but you can't 'prove' them..I'm sure there are also scientists who spend their lifetimes trying to prove what is their own personal theories on something but never do, so in essence that thing never 'existed' for them yet it was something that they believed to be true..a 'faith'...or if they were to get married and make a vow..?...'for the rest of out lives'...it's a belief/a 'leap of faith' in something that is an uncertainty....


..anyway, I'm just going to go back the school thing because it's something that while I agree that it's wrong to 'indoctrinate' and I'm sure that happens in some schools but that for me would be an 'extreme', whereas there are many, many schools who 'take the good, the positive' of religion and apply it/interpret it in a way that helps children to understand things like empathy, tolerance and understandings etc..'the thought of others'...I was just thinking this morning about the most recent example of the 'good' of something which is 'church' related..this was the Harvest celebration which we hold in church/very much church related...something that we as a school and also the Vicar talk to the children about before they have their assembly and they bring in something/produce to be given to local shelters for homeless etc in a way of..'well, most of us are ok because we have families/parents who care for us/feed us..have nice warm houses etc..but what about those who don't/who aren't so fortunate..?..and teaching them to see 'beyond' and feel empathy for others...because from a very young age, it's something that is a 'positive lesson'...much the same as with charities we support, which the children choose themselves..in doing that, they research/gain knowledge/understanding/tolerance etc and things that help them to 'grow'...maybe something that could help give their lives 'meaning'..?..

...but it's much in the same way that we also acknowledge non religious things also..for instance, we respect and acknowledge the silence of Remembrance Day and for those who have died for something they believed in/had faith in...'to provoke thoughts of those who whose lives were different' and less fortunate...


..there are lots of things in life that will 'work' for some and not for others and bring positive things in their lives and with that, those positive things will be felt by the people around them/the people they care about and maybe even more than that..I believe in certain things like CBT..I believe in it because it's something that has been a big part of my life and something that has worked for me personally at a time when I needed it but there would be others who it wouldn't work for at all because we're all different..so for them 'it doesn't exist' as a 'life philosophy' or something that has any meaning in their lives but it does exist because it does exist for some people and they have 'faith' in it...religion can bring and does bring positives to people's lives and those positives can effect other things and other people as well as themselves so that's very 'real'..if it brings prejudices/intolerances and negatives as well, then that's that person's own interpretations...in lots of people's lives/most people's lives there is fairly much a lot of rubbish that will bring you down to a low place as well as the good stuff and whether it be a religious faith/a therapy/family, friends/medication etc..it's just drawing on what helps for that person, no matter what that is...


...anyway, because it's coming up to that time of year again, I was also thinking about the 'meaning' of Christmas and I guess back to the 'feeling' which also made me think about World War 1 with the Christmas Day Truce which for me shows the 'feeling' of Christmas Day so well ..there are people who don't 'believe' in Christmas at all and that can be for very good reasons or personal experience to them and it can be a time of great sadness for some people..'the worst time of the year'...there are people who believe in it as a day of celebrating a birth of 'Christ'..or a belief in Father Christmas of gifts etc...for me personally and I think probably lots of others, it's a 'feel good thing' as well as other stuff ..a time where it feels as though people are a little more thoughtful..?..where there is excitement about buying gifts for the people we care about/seeing the excitement of our children, lots of good things apart from the shopping bit...maybe not related to the topic at all but for me it is in that it takes the positive from something and creates a good feeling for a lot of people because of the interpretations they themselves have of it..and for me personally, it is all to do with interpretations...if religion is interpreted as intolerances and prejudice, it's because of the person interpreting it and not the religion itself....


..so anyway, lots of morning thoughts...

Simply beautiful Ammi, and valid.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Problem is religious people think that its the religion telling them to love they neighbour and be kind etc

meanwhile everyone else just does that as it is common sense.

[Niamh.]

Problem is religious people think that its the religion telling them to love they neighbour and be kind etc

meanwhile everyone else just does that as it is common sense.

Yeah, I'm not bashing religion here, people can believe whatever they want but I do dislike it when people act like if it weren't for religion people would have been incapable of treating eachother right

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yeah, I'm not bashing religion here, people can believe whatever they want but I do dislike it when people act like if it weren't for religion people would have been incapable of treating eachother right

Indeed, the Celtic culture or chinese had worked out all the morality the bible threw up long before Christianity arrived

[waterhog]

this is to deep for me sorry.

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7322953][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7322008][QUOTE=Kizzy;7321969]

"It's not a private debate between kyle and yourself is it?"

No, but until your intervention it was a serious and respectful debate without a trace of ridicule from either participant.

"You were only 1200yrs out on when the bible was written then? that's reassuring. It's becoming a piece that some cherrypick from and manipulate to suit their own agenda, the whole of the King James editions for instance."


Your pedanticism is redundant and misplaced, because I actually qualified my statement by the inclusion of the word; "about".

"The messages the real messages are lost... gone.
What we have left is a mish mash of rehashed rules and regulations that make little or no sense... or their so screamingly obvious that you don't have to be a practicing a religion to know not to do them as they are morally wrong.
And we all have a conscience don't we? Free will?"

This last really puzzles me, because you quote my post, yet nowhere in my post do I address any of the points you have commented on. Therefore, your assertions in this last emboldened section are out of context and - again - misplaced and redundant. You might as well be commenting on the mating habits of Nicaraguan dwarfs.

That's not true, you stated those who had not read the bible were spouting bollox.
Right ok, I see give or take a millennium you were right.
Not sure how my comments on the bible as I see it are out of context, the bible has come up many times in this debate.

[Jules2]

Jules; God gave Man the Commandments, Scriptures and prophets to "try to teach". When Man still refused to learn, he gave Man his only son to reiterate those teachings and Man crucified him for his troubles.

Morning Kirk, sorry but I cannot accept that Jesus was the only son of "God", I still believe in that total energy which was sectioned by man. I think we are all part and parcel of the scheme of things, one could say we are all sons/daughters of "God".

I do believe in the mystical side of the Assenes, I believe that Jesus taught from a higher realm of understanding but his teachings have been abused by many. He tried to show the way of uniting with the mystical side of life, didnt he say "come follow me".

As I have said though I enjoy and respect everyones view, it is a sad sad thing that we had to have headings and so many religions as if we look into many the meaning is the same and man just argues over the words.

[Jules2]

We all exchange views but as I believe it is the spirit which has to be lifted to take it further after we leave our bodies, anything positive which uplifts is great. It doesnt matter what our views are if they are honourable.

We have each possibly got to the point we are at by life experiences, my mystical venture has been through prayer and realisation of my own pathway. For others their prayers have taken them on different ventures of life. All is good for the old saying of "unto thine own self be true" is a very valid point.

We may, who knows, change our views as we get older, to keep an open mind is great.

[Kizzy]

..I agree with Livia in that it's about what we feel ourselves and about interpretations as well..I think that religion is like anything in that there is 'good' or 'bad' that we can take from most things..and also our own personal faiths/beliefs/philosophies/'meanings' etc can't be 'proven' as such because they are just 'feelings'...with 'non believers' as in scientists etc though, they may hold no religious beliefs and only believe in the 'proven', the 'science' of it..but surely there is still something in their lives that can't be 'proven' which they do believe in..?..maybe they believe in love because they have experienced it but it's just a 'feeling'..they believe in sadness/in anger etc..because they 'feel them' or have felt them/experienced them but you can't 'prove' them..I'm sure there are also scientists who spend their lifetimes trying to prove what is their own personal theories on something but never do, so in essence that thing never 'existed' for them yet it was something that they believed to be true..a 'faith'...or if they were to get married and make a vow..?...'for the rest of out lives'...it's a belief/a 'leap of faith' in something that is an uncertainty....


..anyway, I'm just going to go back the school thing because it's something that while I agree that it's wrong to 'indoctrinate' and I'm sure that happens in some schools but that for me would be an 'extreme', whereas there are many, many schools who 'take the good, the positive' of religion and apply it/interpret it in a way that helps children to understand things like empathy, tolerance and understandings etc..'the thought of others'...I was just thinking this morning about the most recent example of the 'good' of something which is 'church' related..this was the Harvest celebration which we hold in church/very much church related...something that we as a school and also the Vicar talk to the children about before they have their assembly and they bring in something/produce to be given to local shelters for homeless etc in a way of..'well, most of us are ok because we have families/parents who care for us/feed us..have nice warm houses etc..but what about those who don't/who aren't so fortunate..?..and teaching them to see 'beyond' and feel empathy for others...because from a very young age, it's something that is a 'positive lesson'...much the same as with charities we support, which the children choose themselves..in doing that, they research/gain knowledge/understanding/tolerance etc and things that help them to 'grow'...maybe something that could help give their lives 'meaning'..?..

...but it's much in the same way that we also acknowledge non religious things also..for instance, we respect and acknowledge the silence of Remembrance Day and for those who have died for something they believed in/had faith in...'to provoke thoughts of those who whose lives were different' and less fortunate...


..there are lots of things in life that will 'work' for some and not for others and bring positive things in their lives and with that, those positive things will be felt by the people around them/the people they care about and maybe even more than that..I believe in certain things like CBT..I believe in it because it's something that has been a big part of my life and something that has worked for me personally at a time when I needed it but there would be others who it wouldn't work for at all because we're all different..so for them 'it doesn't exist' as a 'life philosophy' or something that has any meaning in their lives but it does exist because it does exist for some people and they have 'faith' in it...religion can bring and does bring positives to people's lives and those positives can effect other things and other people as well as themselves so that's very 'real'..if it brings prejudices/intolerances and negatives as well, then that's that person's own interpretations...in lots of people's lives/most people's lives there is fairly much a lot of rubbish that will bring you down to a low place as well as the good stuff and whether it be a religious faith/a therapy/family, friends/medication etc..it's just drawing on what helps for that person, no matter what that is...


...anyway, because it's coming up to that time of year again, I was also thinking about the 'meaning' of Christmas and I guess back to the 'feeling' which also made me think about World War 1 with the Christmas Day Truce which for me shows the 'feeling' of Christmas Day so well ..there are people who don't 'believe' in Christmas at all and that can be for very good reasons or personal experience to them and it can be a time of great sadness for some people..'the worst time of the year'...there are people who believe in it as a day of celebrating a birth of 'Christ'..or a belief in Father Christmas of gifts etc...for me personally and I think probably lots of others, it's a 'feel good thing' as well as other stuff ..a time where it feels as though people are a little more thoughtful..?..where there is excitement about buying gifts for the people we care about/seeing the excitement of our children, lots of good things apart from the shopping bit...maybe not related to the topic at all but for me it is in that it takes the positive from something and creates a good feeling for a lot of people because of the interpretations they themselves have of it..and for me personally, it is all to do with interpretations...if religion is interpreted as intolerances and prejudice, it's because of the person interpreting it and not the religion itself....


..so anyway, lots of morning thoughts...


This is all getting a bit black and white again for me, not everyone is faithless because they don't follow a specific religious doctrine, nor do I feel anyone should be mocked for doing so.
Harvest festival has nothing to do with church.
Exhibiting humility for those less fortunate than yourself such as the homeless can happen all year round it shouldn't necessarily be associated with a specific time of year, that may be a better life lesson.
Yuletide ( hearth and home) is a very special time of year, it is, it was and it ever shall be.
I personally understand how it creates a sense of community but at times it can feel to outsiders that those who choose to follow a religious path have deemed those that don't to be incapable of the upper echelon of morality that they bask in.
It for me can be a positive influence and your example of suburban bliss is lovely, it's not a case of 'if you're not for us you're against us' though and the feeling of mistrust from the religious school my son attended tainted my perception of them massively.

[Crimson Dynamo]

To be fair when discussing religion its hard not to take that tone because its dealing with supernatural stuff and the main books that prop it up are full of crazy stuff that make little sense or contradict its self at every turn

Lets face it we are talking about a guy who is invisible, does not speak, does not do anything (or at least has been inactive for a few thousand years) and all we have to go on about him is some books written thousands of years ago by folks from an area of the world that is not reknowed for its level headed sense

Now combine that with a this Victorian hangover whereby religious piety is to be admmired and never criticised and we have a right old pickle

[Crimson Dynamo]

oh. some supernatural being has just cleaned the thread up a bit....

[Niamh.]

You can call me God from now on LT :fan:

[Crimson Dynamo]

You can call me God from now on LT :fan:

I thought your PM last week says I have to call you "your Irish majesty" or I get another ban?


With this and having to do Josy's washing this week I am right fed up


:inamood:

[Niamh.]

I thought your PM last week says I have to call you "your Irish majesty" or I get another ban?


With this and having to do Josy's washing this week I am right fed up


:inamood:

:laugh:

[lostalex]

can't we all just agree that everyone else should shut the folk up?

[kirklancaster]

Morning Kirk, sorry but I cannot accept that Jesus was the only son of "God", I still believe in that total energy which was sectioned by man. I think we are all part and parcel of the scheme of things, one could say we are all sons/daughters of "God".

I do believe in the mystical side of the Assenes, I believe that Jesus taught from a higher realm of understanding but his teachings have been abused by many. He tried to show the way of uniting with the mystical side of life, didnt he say "come follow me".

As I have said though I enjoy and respect everyones view, it is a sad sad thing that we had to have headings and so many religions as if we look into many the meaning is the same and man just argues over the words.

Good Morning - or afternoon now Jules. Just want to assure you that my response to you was merely to inform you - or remind you - that as a 'parent' God has displayed infinite patience and there are innumerable examples of his 'teaching' - as I identified before.

You are of course, correct in your assertion that we are all 'God's Children' - in as much as if God created Mankind then he is essentially Our Father', but the accepted perception of Jesus being 'God's Only Son' refers to the fact that in the case of Mankind, God (merely)created them, whereas Jesus was actually 'fathered' by God - a direct result of the Virgin Mary's Immaculate Conception.

I am struggling here to be honest, severely limited by intellectual capacity and vocabulary, but I hope the above makes sense. Perhaps I can better illustrate what I mean by the following:

Not many people may be aware of the sub-text in films, but the blockbuster sci fi movie; 'The Terminator', contains an allegory about Jesus Christ.

The plot summary is that in the year 2029, a computer called Skynet tries to eradicate Mankind and is fighting a final battle against a human resistance force - the last hopes of Mankind - led by an inspired man called John Connor. Skynet has virtually indestructible Cyborgs called 'Terminators' and it sends one back in time to 1984 Los Angeles to seek out and kill John's (future) mother Sarah, to prevent his birth.

Aware of this, the resistance in 2029 sends their own human warrior Kyle Reese back to 1984 Los Angeles to also find Sarah, and to stop the Terminator from killing her.

Kyle and Sarah fall in love and mate, and the film ends with Kyle dead, the Terminator destroyed, and Sarah alive and pregnant with Kyle's baby - the soon to be born John, future leader of the resistance.

So here we have a future final battle (Armageddon) between Good (Mankind) and Evil (The Machines) which could be the end of Man. We have a woman Sarah (The Virgin Mary) who is impregnated by Kyle - a 'Ghost' or man who does not exist in her time but is from the Future - a paradoxical (Immaculate) Conception). The son of this union is John Connor (J.C. -- Jesus Christ) the future 'Messiah' and 'Saviour of Mankind'.

Not a perfect allegory but close enough to use in attempt to better explain my point:

In his own time, Kyle could father as many children as he liked but John Connor would remain truly unique because of the unique circumstances of his birth.

Nope --It doesn't really help.

Anyway, Jules keep posting. I value your views and your civility.

[Jules2]

There is good and bad in all things, we have the positive and the negative, we have to accept though that what is positive to one isnt always the same to another and vice versa.

We have to find a balance but I doubt whether everyone in life will tbh. What I find hypocritical re spiritual matters whether it be one church or another, is the fact that some preach something but they do not uphold that teaching within their own lives.

My son-in-laws sister and her family, were great within their church, they were respected and took great satisfaction in their positions as helpers and yet, her husband beat her. She died at the age of 34 through his illtreatment. He still went on in church in his capacity as a verger (I think that is the correct title), why didnt others know, why wasnt the poor lass helped? What right did they have to say to another "thou shalt not.....". Two of their children are a mess and sadly one is passing it on to her child.

Such a lot to consider if one wants to be respected as a helper of the spiritual life. On the other hand we have those who uplift and help those in trouble. We can never judge tbh.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7323181][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7323041][QUOTE=Kizzy;7322953][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7322008]

That's not true, you stated those who had not read the bible were spouting bollox.

With genuine respect to you, and without wishing for anything than balanced, civil discussion as a consequence; you misquoted me and/or completely misunderstood what I said and the context in which I said it. I never said that; "those who had not read the bible were spouting bollox" .[/B] or anything which could be construed as that. What I actually said - if you check my post correctly - is;

"I've no problem here Kyle - in fact I welcome it, because if you're reading, you're informed, and don't spout irrelevant bollox like some, even if you're contesting my viewpoint."

My reference was specifically about any person who responds to a post or comments on part of a post when what they are posting has absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject matter of the post which they are responding to - hence the term; "irrelevant bollox" -- 'irrelevant' being the key word.

I used the words; "if you're reading, you're informed" because I genuinely believe that a person who reads up on the subject being discussed, is far more likely to make more valid, relevant contributions to the matter being discussed, than someone who doesn't read up on the subject being discussed - no matter if that subject be 'The Holy Bible', or 'Fly Fishing' by 'J.R. Hartley'. What's more, I never defined what type of reading or what type of books, and I never mentioned the Bible in this part of the exchange.

"Right ok, I see give or take a millennium you were right." Thank you.

"Not sure how my comments on the bible as I see it are out of context, the bible has come up many times in this debate"

You are right Kizzy, the Bible has come up many times in this debate, it's just that the points you made - though valid - were out of context in the case of this particular exchange.

Anyway, I hope we've both cleared this up and can agree to disagree because I genuinely feel that 'arguing' per se is completely futile - especially on a subject such as this, which in all probability will never be resolved. A civil exchanging of ideas, and respectful discussion and debate is always, both more enjoyable, and fruitful - in my opinion. :wavey:

[kirklancaster]

To be fair when discussing religion its hard not to take that tone because its dealing with supernatural stuff and the main books that prop it up are full of crazy stuff that make little sense or contradict its self at every turn

Lets face it we are talking about a guy who is invisible, does not speak, does not do anything (or at least has been inactive for a few thousand years) and all we have to go on about him is some books written thousands of years ago by folks from an area of the world that is not reknowed for its level headed sense

Now combine that with a this Victorian hangover whereby religious piety is to be admmired and never criticised and we have a right old pickle

LT, the dear Yang to my Ying, you are a very intelligent, seemingly well educated man who is possessed of an extremely admirable sense of humour. This being so, I'm sure you can contribute on this subject - or any other - without "taking that tone", no matter how ridiculous you may personally regard the subject as being.

And now I've said that; I'm a feared of your response!

"Ain't you afeared Oliver? Ain't you a quaking in your boots?"

Oliver might not be, but I am - treat me gently LT. :hehe::hehe::hehe:

[kirklancaster]

Indeed, the Celtic culture or chinese had worked out all the morality the bible threw up long before Christianity arrived

Not guilty LT - I've already stated that 'Man has an intrinsic Moral Code'. How it got there is the $64.000 question. :hehe:

[Jules2]

Good Morning - or afternoon now Jules. Just want to assure you that my response to you was merely to inform you - or remind you - that as a 'parent' God has displayed infinite patience and there are innumerable examples of his 'teaching' - as I identified before.

You are of course, correct in your assertion that we are all 'God's Children' - in as much as if God created Mankind then he is essentially Our Father', but the accepted perception of Jesus being 'God's Only Son' refers to the fact that in the case of Mankind, God (merely)created them, whereas Jesus was actually 'fathered' by God - a direct result of the Virgin Mary's Immaculate Conception.

I am struggling here to be honest, severely limited by intellectual capacity and vocabulary, but I hope the above makes sense. Perhaps I can better illustrate what I mean by the following:

Not many people may be aware of the sub-text in films, but the blockbuster sci fi movie; 'The Terminator', contains an allegory about Jesus Christ.

The plot summary is that in the year 2029, a computer called Skynet tries to eradicate Mankind and is fighting a final battle against a human resistance force - the last hopes of Mankind - led by an inspired man called John Connor. Skynet has virtually indestructible Cyborgs called 'Terminators' and it sends one back in time to 1984 Los Angeles to seek out and kill John's (future) mother Sarah, to prevent his birth.

Aware of this, the resistance in 2029 sends their own human warrior Kyle Reese back to 1984 Los Angeles to also find Sarah, and to stop the Terminator from killing her.

Kyle and Sarah fall in love and mate, and the film ends with Kyle dead, the Terminator destroyed, and Sarah alive and pregnant with Kyle's baby - the soon to be born John, future leader of the resistance.

So here we have a future final battle (Armageddon) between Good (Mankind) and Evil (The Machines) which could be the end of Man. We have a woman Sarah (The Virgin Mary) who is impregnated by Kyle - a 'Ghost' or man who does not exist in her time but is from the Future - a paradoxical (Immaculate) Conception). The son of this union is John Connor (J.C. -- Jesus Christ) the future 'Messiah' and 'Saviour of Mankind'.

Not a perfect allegory but close enough to use in attempt to better explain my point:

In his own time, Kyle could father as many children as he liked but John Connor would remain truly unique because of the unique circumstances of his birth.

Nope --It doesn't really help.

Anyway, Jules keep posting. I value your views and your civility.

Aw Kirk, I see what you are saying tbh but I am still stuck with the energy thing and I have to question the immaculate conception. We are definitely on different wavelengths with these things. There is much to mull over tbh and I will keep my "door" open. Are you looking at God as a person for did he not say I will create man in mine own image?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not guilty LT - I've already stated that 'Man has an intrinsic Moral Code'. How it got there is the $64.000 question. :hehe:

Our behavoirs are learned and honed through natural selection. Time + the ability to survive, breed and pass on our DNA

[Jules2]

To be fair when discussing religion its hard not to take that tone because its dealing with supernatural stuff and the main books that prop it up are full of crazy stuff that make little sense or contradict its self at every turn

Lets face it we are talking about a guy who is invisible, does not speak, does not do anything (or at least has been inactive for a few thousand years) and all we have to go on about him is some books written thousands of years ago by folks from an area of the world that is not reknowed for its level headed sense

Now combine that with a this Victorian hangover whereby religious piety is to be admmired and never criticised and we have a right old pickle


I agree with you re the Victorian age, religion and the bible seemed to be the only things that they had to consider. We seem to have come a long way since then with beings using their own consideration and minds. We are freer with our own thoughts.

Maybe the things which were knocked out of play in the earlier years are now coming back into their own. The recognition of the earth itself and all it's spiritual value. Those who think that way are no longer penalised by the dominance of other groups. The so called "witches" are not burnt at the stake.

To me there is possibly just one energy which is either used for the negative or the positive.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Jules2;7323427]Aw Kirk, I see what you are saying tbh but I am still stuck with the energy thing

I don't know what God is, or what he looks like, I just believe there is one.

I don't think one can take too literal or narrow a view to be honest, there are so many variables to consider --

-- When God said he would make man in his own image, who knows in what context he meant that? Perhaps God is a formless energy who knows that Man will ultimately evolve into just that - in much the same way as a newborn baby or a tadpole resembles nothing like what they will ultimately develop into.

Perhaps God is pure formless energy, for when Moses came down from Sinai with the Commandments, he had undergone a physical change by being in God's presence. His face 'glowed':

"There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light." - Matthew 17:2.

I find it incredible that anyone can have difficulty accepting The Immaculate Conception, when Artificial Insemination - conception without sex - is now so commonplace. If Man can achieve this why can't God?

Anyway, on 'different wavelengths' we may but it's good to talk.

[kirklancaster]

Indeed, the Celtic culture or chinese had worked out all the morality the bible threw up long before Christianity arrived

So no crime of any type existed in ancient Chinese and Celtic cultures?

[Niamh.]

So no crime of any type existed in ancient Chinese and Celtic cultures?

How did you get that from LTs post? :laugh: Crime has and always will exist unfortunately, religion or no religion

[kirklancaster]

How did you get that from LTs post? :laugh: Crime has and always will exist unfortunately, religion or no religion

Sorry Niamh, I thought LT was saying that these ancient cultures had 'worked out' as in 'solved' ie, no more immoral behaviour (crime being immoral, therefore no crime).

[Niamh.]

Sorry Niamh, I thought LT was saying that these ancient cultures had 'worked out' as in 'solved' ie, no more immoral behaviour (crime being immoral, therefore no crime).

What I got from his post was that people were "moral" before religion/God told us we should be

[Jules2]

If Man can achieve this why can't God?

It surely is a difficult one Kirk, it really is. Tbh I have been looking into Essenes to see if I can find any hint of it. It all goes back to how we feel...

[kirklancaster]

What I got from his post was that people were "moral" before religion/God told us we should be

No prob. I've stated myself that Man has an intrinsic Moral Code. I guess the bone of contention is whether it evolved through natural evolution, was built in by an 'Intelligent Designer', or was instilled into Man by God.

I suppose your personal view on this - like pretty much everything - depends on your personal beliefs.

[Jules2]

"Well, many things have been said about the Essenes. Who are the Essenes, what are the Dead Sea scrolls, etc The catholic church was really bothered because the Dead Sea scrolls show in an obvious way that all that Jesus had done, were things that existed already. Jesus came into a tradition! This calls into question the whole catholic
church, who says that Jesus is a self begotten son of God, descended from the sky just like that in the middle of nowhere. Well they were very bothered, because we see quite openly in the scrolls that Jesus came into a tradition which existed already and that he was a son of man who became a son of God – as he says himself –, that means
an Essene!"


"Look at Jesus: “Do you want to follow me? Follow me! Let the
dead bury the dead. I came for life, to give you life. But a life that you don’t know, a divine life, a life above, a life with high ideas, a life which comes from on high, a life which is going to fill you with something spiritual, a life that we don’t see.”
.................................................. .........................

Please dont shoot the typist.........am just picking out pieces from the Essenes. Has anyone managed to read anything of the Dead Sea Scrolls, are they available?

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7323181][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7323041][QUOTE=Kizzy;7322953][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7322008]

That's not true, you stated those who had not read the bible were spouting bollox.

With genuine respect to you, and without wishing for anything than balanced, civil discussion as a consequence; you misquoted me and/or completely misunderstood what I said and the context in which I said it. I never said that; "those who had not read the bible were spouting bollox" .[/B] or anything which could be construed as that. What I actually said - if you check my post correctly - is;

"I've no problem here Kyle - in fact I welcome it, because if you're reading, you're informed, and don't spout irrelevant bollox like some, even if you're contesting my viewpoint."

My reference was specifically about any person who responds to a post or comments on part of a post when what they are posting has absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject matter of the post which they are responding to - hence the term; "irrelevant bollox" -- 'irrelevant' being the key word.

I used the words; "if you're reading, you're informed" because I genuinely believe that a person who reads up on the subject being discussed, is far more likely to make more valid, relevant contributions to the matter being discussed, than someone who doesn't read up on the subject being discussed - no matter if that subject be 'The Holy Bible', or 'Fly Fishing' by 'J.R. Hartley'. What's more, I never defined what type of reading or what type of books, and I never mentioned the Bible in this part of the exchange.

"Right ok, I see give or take a millennium you were right." Thank you.

"Not sure how my comments on the bible as I see it are out of context, the bible has come up many times in this debate"

You are right Kizzy, the Bible has come up many times in this debate, it's just that the points you made - though valid - were out of context in the case of this particular exchange.

Anyway, I hope we've both cleared this up and can agree to disagree because I genuinely feel that 'arguing' per se is completely futile - especially on a subject such as this, which in all probability will never be resolved. A civil exchanging of ideas, and respectful discussion and debate is always, both more enjoyable, and fruitful - in my opinion. :wavey:

You did say it, and whether you say you didn't mean anyone who had already contributed on this thread or not I will have to take your word I guess.
I wouldn't want to appear to be a pedant so yes lets draw a line.

[Kizzy]

"Well, many things have been said about the Essenes. Who are the Essenes, what are the Dead Sea scrolls, etc The catholic church was really bothered because the Dead Sea scrolls show in an obvious way that all that Jesus had done, were things that existed already. Jesus came into a tradition! This calls into question the whole catholic
church, who says that Jesus is a self begotten son of God, descended from the sky just like that in the middle of nowhere. Well they were very bothered, because we see quite openly in the scrolls that Jesus came into a tradition which existed already and that he was a son of man who became a son of God – as he says himself –, that means
an Essene!"


"Look at Jesus: “Do you want to follow me? Follow me! Let the
dead bury the dead. I came for life, to give you life. But a life that you don’t know, a divine life, a life above, a life with high ideas, a life which comes from on high, a life which is going to fill you with something spiritual, a life that we don’t see.”
.................................................. .........................

Please dont shoot the typist.........am just picking out pieces from the Essenes. Has anyone managed to read anything of the Dead Sea Scrolls, are they available?
I think that's why we only have testament from disciples and hangers on, as an essene maybe jesus was a gnostic and his teachings esoteric?

[Creggle]

Do you believe in an afterlife though Creggle? :think: :wavey:

No, but strangely enough I believe we have a spirit and think reincarnation is a possibility, but you don't need a god or deity for that.

[Jules2]

No, but strangely enough I believe we have a spirit and think reincarnation is a possibility, but you don't need a god or deity for that.

We all have part of something, as I have said to me spirit is the life and reincarnation makes sense.

[Jules2]

I think that's why we only have testament from disciples and hangers on, as an essene maybe jesus was a gnostic and his teachings esoteric?

Hi Kizzy I definitely believe his teachings were esorteric and for me some of the things in the bible should be looked at with an esorterical eye and thought.

Good old google, there is much on the Dead Sea Scrolls, have sent for a book to study. It will keep me out of trouble, mmmm I think......:cheer2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

We all have part of something, as I have said to me spirit is the life and reincarnation makes sense.

For reincarnation to make sense you would have to refute all the scientific laws we hold dear.

Would you care to attempt a stab at how you think it works and why you think that?

[Jules2]

For reincarnation to make sense you would have to refute all the scientific laws we hold dear.

Would you care to attempt a stab at how you think it works and why you think that?

What would you term as scientific laws LT please. Tbh I do not think we can refute anything because they are in play. I know that the "spirit/soul/etheric body can leave the physical body. I know that the etheric can go into the past as I have done so. Many of these are my experiences which I cannot deny. They give me a greater understanding of myself. I have had much confirmed on the physical level.

As I go into the past I look to see what I am wearing, what do I look like, so much I could say but it is a long long story.

[Crimson Dynamo]

What would you term as scientific laws LT please. Tbh I do not think we can refute anything because they are in play. I know that the "spirit/soul/etheric body can leave the physical body. I know that the etheric can go into the past as I have done so. Many of these are my experiences which I cannot deny. They give me a greater understanding of myself. I have had much confirmed on the physical level.

As I go into the past I look to see what I am wearing, what do I look like, so much I could say but it is a long long story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_science

Yes well sample size one is no sample so your claims have little merit scientifically.

[Jules2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_science

Yes well sample size one is no sample so your claims have little merit scientifically.

I appreciate what you are saying LT but I can only go by what I have experienced, I was going to say and until I know different but I do feel that I wont. I will keep an open mind though.

My astral travels have taken me to an understanding of perhaps the past, present and future are all one, they are dimensional. On one such venture I came back with the knowlege that perhaps we are the ghosts in this life at times. You see I also believe in absent healing and have had much cause to use it, there is such a lot tbh.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I appreciate what you are saying LT but I can only go by what I have experienced, I was going to say and until I know different but I do feel that I wont. I will keep an open mind though.

My astral travels have taken me to an understanding of perhaps the past, present and future are all one, they are dimensional. On one such venture I came back with the knowlege that perhaps we are the ghosts in this life at times. You see I also believe in absent healing and have had much cause to use it, there is such a lot tbh.

LSD?:shrug:

[Jules2]

LSD?:shrug:

No I can honestly tell you that I have never ever experimented. My experiences have been through the quality of prayer and the need to heal and to learn. My understanding of the drugs is that it separates the bodies and allows visions to overtake but as it is usually taken by those who just want to experience it isnt always a happy venture.

With scientific thought I think we have to realise that scientists are progressing more to the combination of the possible unexplained, as follows re extraterrestials

"The possibility of extraterrestrial life is not, by itself, a paranormal subject. Many scientists are actively engaged in the search for unicellular life within the solar system, carrying out studies on the surface of Mars and examining meteors that have fallen to Earth.[16] Projects such as SETI are conducting an astronomical search for radio activity that would show evidence of intelligent life outside the solar system.[17] Scientific theories of how life developed on Earth allow for the possibility that life developed on other planets as well. The paranormal aspect of extraterrestrial life centers largely around the belief in unidentified flying objects and the phenomena said to be associated with them to the factual evidence of life".

There is a thought that during the war people were being trained to spy on the enemy through the astral. There is to much in play to dispute any of it tbh. Many great books have been written on the subject.

I think we will find, as with the Great Writers of gonebydays, that something will be said by the Scientists one day but with the advent of time they may find something different which will give voice to alternative thought.

It is all so interesting.

[Jules2]

"Paranormal research[edit]
Approaching the paranormal from a research perspective is often difficult because of the lack of acceptable physical evidence from most of the purported phenomena. By definition, the paranormal does not conform to conventional expectations of nature. Therefore, a phenomenon cannot be confirmed as paranormal using the scientific method because, if it could be, it would no longer fit the definition. (However, confirmation would result in the phenomenon being reclassified as part of science.) Despite this problem, studies on the paranormal are periodically conducted by researchers from various disciplines. Some researchers simply study the beliefs in the paranormal regardless of whether the phenomena are considered to objectively exist. This section deals with various approaches to the paranormal: anecdotal, experimental, and participant-observer approaches and the skeptical investigation approach".

Taken from your link LT. One link leads to another.

[Crimson Dynamo]

"Paranormal research[edit]
Approaching the paranormal from a research perspective is often difficult because of the lack of acceptable physical evidence from most of the purported phenomena. By definition, the paranormal does not conform to conventional expectations of nature. Therefore, a phenomenon cannot be confirmed as paranormal using the scientific method because, if it could be, it would no longer fit the definition. (However, confirmation would result in the phenomenon being reclassified as part of science.) Despite this problem, studies on the paranormal are periodically conducted by researchers from various disciplines. Some researchers simply study the beliefs in the paranormal regardless of whether the phenomena are considered to objectively exist. This section deals with various approaches to the paranormal: anecdotal, experimental, and participant-observer approaches and the skeptical investigation approach".

It all amounts to very little I am afraid. I think of it like ghost sitings. They always seem to be of medieval people and the images are grainy and unclear.

Why because that is what people thunk "ghosts" look like so they do what humans are good at and that is spotting human shapes in things. Why is it grainy because if it were sharp you could see what it really was and there is no mystery and no cache for the person claiming to have spotted it.

[Jules2]

It all amounts to very little I am afraid. I think of it like ghost sitings. They always seem to be of medieval people and the images are grainy and unclear.

Why because that is what people thunk "ghosts" look like so they do what humans are good at and that is spotting human shapes in things. Why is it grainy because if it were sharp you could see what it really was and there is no mystery and no cache for the person claiming to have spotted it.

I cant answer you really LT because we have to experience to know what I am saying. I consider it all as one, as we are in another dimension we are actually there. It is as though that is the real life at that time of being.

[Jules2]

]It all amounts to very little I am afraid. [/B]I think of it like ghost sitings. They always seem to be of medieval people and the images are grainy and unclear.

Why because that is what people thunk "ghosts" look like so they do what humans are good at and that is spotting human shapes in things. Why is it grainy because if it were sharp you could see what it really was and there is no mystery and no cache for the person claiming to have spotted it.

Have seen such a ghost, we stayed in a very old Inn, I didnt know anything about it but in the night there he was.

I asked the landlord the next day, he then told me that yes they had a ghost. I was very intrigued with the experience.

[lostalex]

everyone just repeat after me... "I don't know".

[Jules2]

everyone just repeat after me... "I don't know".


This is where faith comes into something Alex, we know how we feel. As we know many have faith in the word of the bible.

Am just reading a book on the Dead Sea Scrolls, wow, theirs is a vengeaful god according to one section, death for the least thing all in the name of God. Obedience was the name of the game. Another section talks of gods within a God, maybe Stichin has something after all. They seem to talk as though God is a "man".......

Have only read so far so things may change later on in the text but I havent as yet found anything calming.

Marriage was allowed but sex was only to be practiced for the purpose of birthing. Hey ho have we come a long way today or not, I doubt whether the society of this time would have got very far as things are so lax.

[Jules2]

We seem to have come to a close but before I go I will just say one thing, thank you all for chatting have enjoyed all your views and I know that there is cause for everything to be considered.

I have got a bit further with the Scrolls and have learnt quite a bit tbh. The different laws etc. etc., reasons why things have been said in the bible. It has altered my mind to some things, their take on marriage and family is fascinating and surely wouldnt survive in this day and age. It has answered my question of "leave your famiy and follow me". It is all very politically minded. It is worth a read if anyone is interested in that period of time. I guess it is all our history. Anyway take care everyone.

[Northern Monkey]

everyone just repeat after me... "I don't know".

:worship: Amen!!Here lies the most intellegent post on the forum.

[Crimson Dynamo]

everyone just repeat after me... "I don't know".

and then repeat

"oh yeah, this is a discussion forum"