Apple and Facebook pay women staff to freeze their eggs then stay working

[arista]

This keeps Production Up.


[Apple and Facebook pay women staff to freeze
their eggs because bosses want to keep them working longer
Silicon Valley giants willing to pay £12,500 a time to put eggs on ice
According to NBC, Facebook has already started and Apple will in 2015
One egg-freezing advocate said the move was 'investing in women'
But one academic warned employees may see babies as 'incompatible']


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2793286/apple-facebook-pay-women-staff-freeze-eggs-bosses-want-working-longer.html#ixzz3GC5QeT7e

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/15/1413330801165_wps_60_Human_egg_tanks_at_the_As.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/10/15/342337/default/v1/comp-1-942x530.jpg

http://news.sky.com/story/1353314/apple-and-facebook-pay-to-freeze-staff-eggs


Sign Of The Times

[rubymoo]

I honestly don't know how i feel about this:huh:

[arista]

I honestly don't know how i feel about this:huh:


View it like how China
does things.
Of course in China
you can only have one child.


If they loose all these hard working special projects women
so they have a baby
the company gets left behind.


Its a Race To The Top


On Lorraine ITV1HD
The Mirror reporter called it "Sinister"
just now

[rubymoo]

View it like how China
does things.
Of course in China
you can only have one child.


If they loose all these hard working special projects women
so they have a baby
the company gets left behind.


Its a Race To The Top

I know i sound naive.......but that's really quite sad, i know more and more women are putting their careers first, but these same women are also struggling conceiving because they've left it too late, just because eggs are frozen doesn't mean they are going to be viable, and this comes from my experience, i under went fertility treatment and they retrieved 11 eggs, however only 2 became fertilized, they implanted the 2 and lucky for me they took, but i know people who have had countless treatments and still no baby.

Maybe the companies should offer better pay so the women can afford childcare if they want to return to work:shrug:

[arista]

I know i sound naive.......but that's really quite sad, i know more and more women are putting their careers first, but these same women are also struggling conceiving because they've left it too late, just because eggs are frozen doesn't mean they are going to be viable, and this comes from my experience, i under went fertility treatment and they retrieved 11 eggs, however only 2 became fertilized, they implanted the 2 and lucky for me they took, but i know people who have had countless treatments and still no baby.

Maybe the companies should offer better pay so the women can afford childcare if they want to return to work:shrug:


Yes its sad for them.

its is better when younger.

[AnnieK]

I know i sound naive.......but that's really quite sad, i know more and more women are putting their careers first, but these same women are also struggling conceiving because they've left it too late, just because eggs are frozen doesn't mean they are going to be viable, and this comes from my experience, i under went fertility treatment and they retrieved 11 eggs, however only 2 became fertilized, they implanted the 2 and lucky for me they took, but i know people who have had countless treatments and still no baby.

Maybe the companies should offer better pay so the women can afford childcare if they want to return to work:shrug:

I agree ruby.....Ivf didn't work for me and the frozen embryos didn't survive the thaw process so none of the cycles I went through were successful.....it's asking people to gamble their fertility IMO. I wouldn't recommend it

[rubymoo]

I agree ruby.....I've didn't work for me and the frozen embryos didn't survive the thaw process so none of the cycles I went through were successful.....it's asking people to gamble their fertility IMO. I wouldn't recommend it

:hug:

[Niamh.]

I heard about this, this morning, it sounds very much like a weird science fiction movie. It seems a bit messed up really

[arista]

I heard about this, this morning, it sounds very much like a weird science fiction movie. It seems a bit messed up really


Its important for Top Leaders
to bring this in
to stay at the Top Level in the World

[Niamh.]

Its important for Top Leaders
to bring this in
to stay at the Top Level in the World

It shouldn't become common place for parents to start having kids at retirement age though imo. It really isn't fair on the children they bring into the world

[arista]

It shouldn't become common place for parents to start having kids at retirement age though imo. It really isn't fair on the children they bring into the world


Do not worry
this is California


So its not common place yet

[Nedusa]

Disgusting idea.



.

[Livia]

No one's forcing these women to take part in this, presumably; no one's being coerced. Some women might want to work and keep their options open to have children later. I know this isn't going to be a popular comment, but I would much rather work with women who have no kids. In the past when I've worked with women who have a family their families quite rightly come first. Consequently those of us who don't have kids end up covering for them when their kids are sick, when their kids have sports day... all kinds of issues. No one's making Microsoft and Apple do this and if women take advantage of it, that's their choice.

[Niamh.]

Thankfully in this day and age men in the work force are now sharing the burden with their partners of looking after their kids and taking time off when kids are sick etc etc

[Crimson Dynamo]

We had our first air frost the other night and my eggs were freezing, I can tell you.

[AnnieK]

Thankfully in this day and age men in the work force are now sharing the burden with their partners of looking after their kids and taking time off when kids are sick etc etc

Not only that.....I assume people without children take holidays too and those with children have to cover their work then....they also take sick days....etc etc...some of the worst "sickie chuckers" in my experience don't do it due to kids....

But on the other handi agree with Livia, in if it's not a prerequisite of getting a position with these companies I guess it's each to their own....

[Livia]

Not only that.....I assume people without children take holidays too and those with children have to cover their work then....they also take sick days....etc etc...some of the worst "sickie chuckers" in my experience don't do it due to kids....

But on the other handi agree with Livia, in if it's not a prerequisite of getting a position with these companies I guess it's each to their own....

I'm not having a pop at all women with kids (Annie and Niamh)... it's just that in my own personal experience it's happened that I've ended up covering for a couple of women who "want it all". It's a generalisation I know... but I've worked no end of evenings and weekends where the women with kids have to get home, but still think they should be in with a shot when promotions and raises roll round.

I'm not sure the egg freezing thing would be for me, but it sounds like an option some women would probably want to consider.

[Niamh.]

I'm not having a pop at all women with kids (Annie and Niamh)... it's just that in my own personal experience it's happened that I've ended up covering for a couple of women who "want it all". It's a generalisation I know... but I've worked no end of evenings and weekends where the women with kids have to get home, but still think they should be in with a shot when promotions and raises roll round.

I'm not sure the egg freezing thing would be for me, but it sounds like an option some women would probably want to consider.

:fist:

Yeah I mean fair enough if women want to do that, it just sounds a bit science fictionish to me when you hear businesses are offering to pay for it for their employees :laugh: Also, my concerns about it becoming common place for old-elderly people trying to raise kids

[user104658]

Meh. All sounds a bit selfish, to me. It's an either-or situation, you should choose the high-flying career OR to settle down to cosy family life. The two are inherently incompatible. For both women AND men. Men, with children, who spend their lives in high-flying careers, working longer-than-normal hours, on constant business trips, and then still sat working at home / always available over the phone... are being **** dads when it comes to small children. Many might find that harsh but it's something I truly believe.

If you really want to do both (again, women OR men), have kids YOUNG and start your career path when they're a little bit older.

[arista]

Meh. All sounds a bit selfish, to me. It's an either-or situation, you should choose the high-flying career OR to settle down to cosy family life. The two are inherently incompatible. For both women AND men. Men, with children, who spend their lives in high-flying careers, working longer-than-normal hours, on constant business trips, and then still sat working at home / always available over the phone... are being **** dads when it comes to small children. Many might find that harsh but it's something I truly believe.

If you really want to do both (again, women OR men), have kids YOUNG and start your career path when they're a little bit older.


Yes on FoxNewsHD on a new
all woman show (4 women , 1 guest man)
Stacey Dash (actress) has had 4 husbands
she can not hold a man down , sadly.
She Trys to have it all
without a man
thats America.
She even breaks down on Live TV

[Livia]

Yes on FoxNewsHD on a new
all woman show (4 women , 1 guest man)
Stacey Dash (actress) has had 4 husbands
she can not hold a man down , sadly.
She Trys to have it all
without a man
thats America.
She even breaks down on Live TV

I could teach her how to restrain one.

[Ninastar]

omg i bet all the lesbians are having a party. i'd make £12,500 every month if i could

[Cherie]

I'm not having a pop at all women with kids (Annie and Niamh)... it's just that in my own personal experience it's happened that I've ended up covering for a couple of women who "want it all". It's a generalisation I know... but I've worked no end of evenings and weekends where the women with kids have to get home, but still think they should be in with a shot when promotions and raises roll round.

I'm not sure the egg freezing thing would be for me, but it sounds like an option some women would probably want to consider.

Who forced you to work these extra hours? and I assume you got paid overtime for them :whistle:

[Kizzy]

Ok so when are these women meant to have children, retirement age?

[arista]

Ok so when are these women meant to have children, retirement age?


If they sign the Mega Cobtract

[arista]

Ok so when are these women meant to have children, retirement age?


If they sign the Mega Contract

[Kizzy]

So they have to sign a new contract when they sign up? I see, so my guess is if you fall preggers before a certain age or you leave the company you get no maternity benefits at all.

[Creggle]

How long until this isn't choice? "Freeze yer eggs or find another jerb". Plenty of women would do it just to snag a decent job in the first place, and those who wouldn't want to lose out.

[Niamh.]

Another article on it

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/perk-facebook-apple-now-pay-women-freeze-eggs-n225011

This quote :facepalm:

But the emotional and cultural payoff may be more valuable, said Jones: Offering this benefit “can help women be more productive human beings.”

[lostalex]

They don't have to freeze ALL of their eggs, just some of them, they are still allowed and able to have kids the natural way too, I think.

[Livia]

No one's forcing these women to have their eggs frozen. It's an option. Would people rather Microsoft etc. remove the offer? Then if a woman chooses her career over motherhood then she'll have to pay for this herself or run the risk of being "too late" when she wants a family. As for the question of someone falling pregnant mid-contract... I don't know any professional women with good jobs who've been caught out. Contraception is pretty good these days.

Motherhood is probably the noblest profession, right? And there are lots of jobs women can do wonderfully well while raising a healthy, balanced family (I say 'women' because it is mostly the women who take on the childcare role, although not exclusively). Not all jobs though. Sometimes you just can't have it all and it's wrong to expect that you can. In that light, I think companies offering this to their employees are doing them a service.

[Cherie]

They don't have to freeze ALL of their eggs, just some of them, they are still allowed and able to have kids the natural way too, I think.

I would imagine if you take up this offer you will have to sign a contract that you will not get pregnant naturally or otherwise for a certain number of years? I can't see the benefit to the company otherwise?

Rather than this being a step forward for women its a step backwards imo, are they asking men to delay fatherhood so they can concentrate on their careers? It's rather antiquated to say that women have responsibility for all the childcare, you see just as many fathers as mothers at sports days, or doing the school run these days. Career minded women can deliver their babies and be back at their desks within weeks and in most cases work up to 2 weeks before the birth. I find it a bit ironic that internet based companies like face book cannot offer flexible working hours/working from home as an alternative to freezing eggs!

[Livia]

Why do some posts on this thread make it sounds like these companies are coercing women into having children late and making them freeze their eggs? Women aren't stupid, and I would imagine professional women least of all. The choice is theirs. Everyone's "imagining" what their contract looks like but no one knows, it's all supposition.

It's all very well giving birth and rushing back to work after having a baby but what happens when the baby's sick or there's some other kind of emergency? When something happens at work and everyone has to stay late or work a weekend? I'll tell you what happens, it's the people with no childcare issues who get to carry those people who need to get home in time for bathtime.

No one is forcing women to do this. Some women pay for this themselves so they can build their career before having a family, some work around it in other ways, so why do some people imagine they are all fools being coerced by big business? It's kind of insulting. And until the people who stay home and care for kids are 50% men, saying "it's not only women who have the kids" is irrelevant.The vast majority of people who stay home are women. You've only got to stand at the school gate to realise that.

[Niamh.]

Why do some posts on this thread make it sounds like these companies are coercing women into having children late and making them freeze their eggs? Women aren't stupid, and I would imagine professional women least of all. The choice is theirs. Everyone's "imagining" what their contract looks like but no one knows, it's all supposition.

It's all very well giving birth and rushing back to work after having a baby but what happens when the baby's sick or there's some other kind of emergency? When something happens at work and everyone has to stay late or work a weekend? I'll tell you what happens, it's the people with no childcare issues who get to carry those people who need to get home in time for bathtime.

No one is forcing women to do this. Some women pay for this themselves so they can build their career before having a family, some work around it in other ways, so why do some people imagine they are all fools being coerced by big business? It's kind of insulting. And until the people who stay home and care for kids are 50% men, saying "it's not only women who have the kids" is irrelevant.The vast majority of people who stay home are women. You've only got to stand at the school gate to realise that.

Do you actually stand at school gates regularly Livia? I'm not meaning to sound smart by saying that but you would be surprised, I drop my kids to school, my husband collects them, from what I see at the school gates that's a common occurrence among families now a days, I see it with my friends who have kids and from my kids friends parents, most of them are both working and they work the childcare/collecting dropping from school between them

[Cherie]

It's equally insulting to say that career women leave their childless colleagues holding the fort while they rush home. I work in a school, Dads come and pick up their sick children, Dads come to review meetings, yes there are women at the school gate because they stay at home to look after their children, they have put their careers on hold, you do not see the career women at the school gate because they have dropped their children off at the child minders at silly o clock to get into work. Equally if they do attend sports days or otherwise they take it as ANNUAL LEAVE, they do not ask their colleagues to cover their work! That just doesn't happen. One day you might have to leave work early to care for one of your parents, I hope your colleague will understand that you are putting your family first!

[Kizzy]

I am aware nobody is forcing the women to do this however it is possible that if there was a promotion to be offered of the two female candidates the more 'productive human being' would perhaps unfairly have the advantage.
Also my comment earlier relating to contracts didn't mention anything about contraception and it's reliability, a woman may decide to move having children forward for any number of reasons. Also this would be limiting in the amount of children you have, the odds of having a child in later years are reduced drastically especially if you want to have more than one child.
http://www.babycentre.co.uk/i/preconception/infertilitygraph.gif
Whether or not the mother is the main caregiver or not is not relevant in this discussion.

[Livia]

Do you actually stand at school gates regularly Livia? I'm not meaning to sound smart by saying that but you would be surprised, I drop my kids to school, my husband collects them, from what I see at the school gates that's a common occurrence among families now a days, I see it with my friends who have kids and from my kids friends parents, most of them are both working and they work the childcare/collecting dropping from school between them

No I don't spend a lot of time at the school gates, but you already know that. However, up until last year I drove past three primary schools every day to get to work and the people dropping off their kids were almost exclusively women. Likewise, I have been to school with my brother to drop my nieces off (my brother stayed at home with the kids while his wife went to work) and he was one of only two or three men dropping off their kids, and he was the only man at playgroup when they were really little. Also, I worked with lots of professional women who have kids and mostly it's their childcare providers who collect their kids and they are also almost exclusively women.

I don't think you can convince me that there's an even split with men and women when it comes to staying home and taking care of the kids, even though my brother was one of those who did just that.

Anyhoo, the crux of this matter as far as I'm concerned is this: if women want to take advantage of this and work for a particular company, then that's their call. I just don't understand why some people think it's a retrograde stop when no one is being forced or coerced into anything. These are professional women we're talking about. They're well able to make up their own minds.

[lostalex]

it's none of your business when the most opportune time to have a child is kizzy. no one debates if it's okay for an older man to father a child. Why are there so many articles about women having children too young, women having children too old, women who stay home, women that work, women women women,

but how many articles do you see about men having children??? none. as if men have nothing to do with the matter.

just another way to blame women for the problems of the world. the majority in power always loves to blame the minority with no power for all of the problems.

[lily.]

I heard about this, this morning, it sounds very much like a weird science fiction movie. It seems a bit messed up really

I totally agree. I read this and genuinely thought it was some kind of sick wind-up. I can't believe this is even legal.

[Livia]

Kizzy, you don't decide what's relevant. Who provides care for a child is VERY relevant if you've ever had to work till ten while the one who has the ch ild gets to leave early because they have to put their kid to bed. That makes them, in my opinion, unproductive.

[Kizzy]

Kizzy, you don't decide what's relevant. Who provides care for a child is VERY relevant if you've ever had to work till ten while the one who has the ch ild gets to leave early because they have to put their kid to bed. That makes them, in my opinion, unproductive.

If you work till ten that's YOUR choice if a working mother has a work/life balance you cant hold her responsible because YOU don't.

[Kizzy]

it's none of your business when the most opportune time to have a child is kizzy. no one debates if it's okay for an older man to father a child. Why are there so many articles about women having children too young, women having children too old, women who stay home, women that work, women women women,

but how many articles do you see about men having children??? none. as if men have nothing to do with the matter.

just another way to blame women for the problems of the world. the majority in power always loves to blame the minority with no power for all of the problems.

Seeing as the tread is discussing this then I'll have a say alex thanks.

[Kizzy]

No I don't spend a lot of time at the school gates, but you already know that. However, up until last year I drove past three primary schools every day to get to work and the people dropping off their kids were almost exclusively women. Likewise, I have been to school with my brother to drop my nieces off (my brother stayed at home with the kids while his wife went to work) and he was one of only two or three men dropping off their kids, and he was the only man at playgroup when they were really little. Also, I worked with lots of professional women who have kids and mostly it's their childcare providers who collect their kids and they are also almost exclusively women.

I don't think you can convince me that there's an even split with men and women when it comes to staying home and taking care of the kids, even though my brother was one of those who did just that.

Anyhoo, the crux of this matter as far as I'm concerned is this: if women want to take advantage of this and work for a particular company, then that's their call. I just don't understand why some people think it's a retrograde stop when no one is being forced or coerced into anything. These are professional women we're talking about. They're well able to make up their own minds.

As cherie correctly pointed out many of these may be childminders as their mothers are working?..

[lily.]

Meh. All sounds a bit selfish, to me. It's an either-or situation, you should choose the high-flying career OR to settle down to cosy family life. The two are inherently incompatible. For both women AND men. Men, with children, who spend their lives in high-flying careers, working longer-than-normal hours, on constant business trips, and then still sat working at home / always available over the phone... are being **** dads when it comes to small children. Many might find that harsh but it's something I truly believe.

If you really want to do both (again, women OR men), have kids YOUNG and start your career path when they're a little bit older.

I've read through all the posts now, and I have to say that I agree most with this one.

I think it is possible to have a family and a job, but there is a line.

I expect most people would agree that if a couple had 12 children it would be quite difficult for them to also both have careers, so by that reasoning, if a couple have really high-powered jobs it would be quite difficult for them to have a family.

I think we live in an age where 'having it all' is expected, and it is just too damn hard in my view. I think men and women need to accept that certain sacrifices have to be made if you are to have a family and be able to balance that with the jobs you both do.

[lostalex]

Seeing as the tread is discussing this then I'll have a say alex thanks.

what i meant was, how are you making it better for women? and challenging the status quo/

[Kizzy]

what i meant was, how are you making it better for women? and challenging the status quo/

Me personally?.. The thread is discussing the companies here, I'm stating and basing my opinion on that.

[Livia]

If you work till ten that's YOUR choice if a working mother has a work/life balance you cant hold her responsible because YOU don't.

Don't make this personal, Kizzy.

[Livia]

As cherie correctly pointed out many of these may be childminders as their mothers are working?..

Yeah... maybe.

And maybe not.

[Kizzy]

Don't make this personal, Kizzy.

You stated that you personally had been affected by being a childless employee put upon to take the workload from your colleagues with children livia.My comment was not a slight on you in any way.

[Marsh.]

Kizzy, you don't decide what's relevant. Who provides care for a child is VERY relevant if you've ever had to work till ten while the one who has the ch ild gets to leave early because they have to put their kid to bed. That makes them, in my opinion, unproductive.

But then surely they get paid for whatever hours they do work and you get paid for yours? :confused:

Unless you're being forced to work overtime and do other people's jobs? In which case check your job description and pay scale. :laugh:

[Niamh.]

and can I add if I ever take a day off because my kids are sick(which i can't even remember the last time I've had to do that), it comes off my annual leave, I get the same annual leave as everyone else kids or no kids

[Kizzy]

Yeah... maybe.

And maybe not.

It would be supposition to suggest they all mothers dropping their children off are wouldn't it?

[Livia]

You stated that you personally had been affected by being a childless employee put upon to take the workload from your colleagues with children livia.My comment was not a slight on you in any way.

And you suggested that someone who knocks off early "has a work/life balance", whereas I don't have a work/life because I would work till the job's done. And I noted your use of CAPITALS. Very sweeping statement seeing as you know nothing about my life nor my work.

[Livia]

But then surely they get paid for whatever hours they do work and you get paid for yours? :confused:

Unless you're being forced to work overtime and do other people's jobs? In which case check your job description and pay scale. :laugh:

It's not about getting paid for hours, Marsh. I'm talking about a career here, not a just a job where you get paid by the hour.

[Livia]

It would be supposition to suggest they all mothers dropping their children off are wouldn't it?

You get further and further away from the point.

[Marsh.]

It's not about getting paid for hours, Marsh. I'm talking about a career here, not a just a job where you get paid by the hour.

Yes, but you specifically just mentioned working until late whilst the person with children "gets to leave early". Well, surely someone else's position/hours/workload is not relevant to yours?

Everybody, even within the same career, is not going to have the same circumstances or always work the same hours.

[Livia]

Yes, but you specifically just mentioned working until late whilst the person with children "gets to leave early". Well, surely someone else's position/hours/workload is not relevant to yours?

Of course it is! If a job has to be finished by a deadline or if you're working on something particular you can't just swan off. Well, all of you can't just swan off.

[Marsh.]

Of course it is! If a job has to be finished by a deadline or if you're working on something particular you can't just swan off. Well, all of you can't just swan off.

The workers with kids are allowed to "just swan off"? I doubt it.

[Livia]

The workers with kids are allowed to "just swan off"? I doubt it.

It has been my experience. Women with young children have felt that they are more deserving to leave than those of us who don't have kids. You doubt it... that's your prerogative, Marshy, but that's been my experience.

[Kizzy]

And you suggested that someone who knocks off early "has a work/life balance", whereas I don't have a work/life because I would work till the job's done. And I noted your use of CAPITALS. Very sweeping statement seeing as you know nothing about my life nor my work.

Yes well as we can't account for the working hours/ practices of every mother working in the UK this is irrelevant.
You suggesting anyone who leaves work before 10 is unproductive is a sweeping statement too.

[Kizzy]

You get further and further away from the point.

It's your point livia, you brought the school gates into this...

[lily.]

It has been my experience. Women with young children have felt that they are more deserving to leave than those of us who don't have kids. You doubt it... that's your prerogative, Marshy, but that's been my experience.

I think it depends on the kind of work you do. If you work in a high street shop or a small company, it would make less difference, but if you work in a high-stress job with deadlines and demands, then I expect it would have a negative effect on those left behind to carry the weight/responsibility of the task.

I don't have experience of this, because I chose the stay-at-home-mum path, but I am not surprised by your experiences Livia because I do know a lot of people who want to have it all... and that, in my view, is an unrealistic goal.

[Kizzy]

I don't feel it is, we would be setting women back decades if we suggested that they choose between motherhood and a career in any field.

[lily.]

A lot of people would agree with you Kizzy.

My opinion is based mainly on my own life experiences as a mother. I don't think I could have been the kind of parent I wanted to be had I juggled it with a high-flying career.

I am all about the choice though. I love that women have the choice, because what is right for one woman isn't necessarily right for another. That's the important thing.

And, although I think the story in the OP is quite weird, as long as these women don't feel coerced into participating in this scheme, it's all good.

[Marsh.]

It has been my experience. Women with young children have felt that they are more deserving to leave than those of us who don't have kids. You doubt it... that's your prerogative, Marshy, but that's been my experience.

Feel they're more deserving or need to leave earlier than you to pick kids up etc?

[Cherie]

All employees unless they are on zero hours contracts will have their hours of work stated in their contract, any hours worked over and above will be overtime and unless it is agreed that employees have to work a certain number of unsocial hours, then they are at liberty to 'swan off" , just because they happen to be going home to bath the kids makes no difference. The old saying the willing donkey carries the load applies here.

[Marsh.]

All employees unless they are on zero hours contracts will have their hours of work stated in their contract, any hours worked over and above will be overtime and unless it is agreed that employees have to work a certain number of unsocial hours, then they are at liberty to 'swan off" , just because they happen to be going home to bath the kids makes no difference. The old saying the willing donkey carries the load applies here.

This is what I was getting at. :laugh: Thank you.

[Niamh.]

Cherie is so good at verbalising my thoughts :hehe:

[Cherie]

and can I add if I ever take a day off because my kids are sick(which i can't even remember the last time I've had to do that), it comes off my annual leave, I get the same annual leave as everyone else kids or no kids

I think that is the case in most private companies Niamh

[Cherie]

Cherie is so good at verbalising my thoughts :hehe:

:fan:

[Ninastar]

i must be the only one who sees this as a nice thing... One of the hardest decisions is to choose between having kids or keep working. It's nice to show that you're that wanted, they'd pay that much to keep you for a while longer

i dont think they want you to not have children AT ALL or in the late 40s etc, just a decent age before leaving the company or whatever

i wish more people waited till their 30s to have kids. there's a big difference of behaviour (in children) with people who wait to have their kids. That's what I've noticed anyway.

[Livia]

I think it depends on the kind of work you do. If you work in a high street shop or a small company, it would make less difference, but if you work in a high-stress job with deadlines and demands, then I expect it would have a negative effect on those left behind to carry the weight/responsibility of the task.

I don't have experience of this, because I chose the stay-at-home-mum path, but I am not surprised by your experiences Livia because I do know a lot of people who want to have it all... and that, in my view, is an unrealistic goal.

That's what I'm getting at. I don't have a contract for x amount of hours, in my job I might have to go abroad at a moment's notice or go in to work on a Sunday. It's unrealistic to expect someone with kids would be able to do that, or that they would even want to. If I was in a position to think about wanting kids I might want to take advantage of the offer here, and I might not. It would be my choice. Or I might decide I want to find a job that fits in with having a child. This isn't a 'one size fits all' question.

[lily.]

Yeah, that was my take on it.... that certain jobs just don't fit well with raising a family.

[lostalex]

I'd rather see more women having kids at 45 and less at 15, i'll say that much.

[Livia]

All employees unless they are on zero hours contracts will have their hours of work stated in their contract, any hours worked over and above will be overtime and unless it is agreed that employees have to work a certain number of unsocial hours, then they are at liberty to 'swan off" , just because they happen to be going home to bath the kids makes no difference. The old saying the willing donkey carries the load applies here.

I don't have a set amount of hours in my contact. The "willing donkey" adage might apply if I worked in a shoe shop, otherwise it's an over simplistic comment. Sometimes the job has to be finished, I understand that, everyone I work with understands that, and not a donkey among us.

[AnnieK]

I think my contract states something along the lines of xx hours per week with a codicil stating that additional duties and hours may be required as the business dictates....

I used to do a lot at the office after hours but thankfully now thanks to the internet revolution I am able to put a lot of hours in at home....I don't get paid overtime if I work at home or in the office though....

[Kizzy]

If the job can't be finished in the hours you are contracted to work and you're working unpaid and/or from home then that falls neatly into the willing donkey scenario.
It matters not if you have a family or not if you are working for a company making them money is it not fair to expect money or time owed?
So far from being a simplistic comment it's opened up the fact that many people are working many hours above and beyond for nada.... That's not the fault of working mothers and those who are being put upon in the workplace should look to themselves for accepting this situation.

[Livia]

If the job can't be finished in the hours you are contracted to work and you're working unpaid and/or from home then that falls neatly into the willing donkey scenario.
It matters not if you have a family or not if you are working for a company making them money is it not fair to expect money or time owed?
So far from being a simplistic comment it's opened up the fact that many people are working many hours above and beyond for nada.... That's not the fault of working mothers and those who are being put upon in the workplace should look to themselves for accepting this situation.

What utter rubbish. It's not all about nine to five for a lot of people. I don't work for a company, you have no idea what I do or anything about my contract and I'm one of many that doesn't fit into a neat little 36-hours-a-week pigeon hole so I'm afraid the donkey scenario is not just wrong, it's a little insulting. As you know. And in any case, if someone wants to work hard to build a career, staying late and working hard to get a job done is something that goes with the territory. If people want to go home at 5pm when there's a flap on, they should probably look elsewhere for a job.

I'm surprised people think they have the right to be outraged that some women would make a decision to take advantage of the offer described in the OP when really, it's not anything to do with anyone but the woman making the decision and no one's hand is being forced.

[Marsh.]

I'd rather see more women having kids at 45 and less at 15, i'll say that much.

Yeah, let's have loads more kids with disabilities and other health related problems from being born of older women.

[Kizzy]

What utter rubbish. It's not all about nine to five for a lot of people. I don't work for a company, you have no idea what I do or anything about my contract and I'm one of many that doesn't fit into a neat little 36-hours-a-week pigeon hole so I'm afraid the donkey scenario is not just wrong, it's a little insulting. As you know. And in any case, if someone wants to work hard to build a career, staying late and working hard to get a job done is something that goes with the territory. If people want to go home at 5pm when there's a flap on, they should probably look elsewhere for a job.

I'm surprised people think they have the right to be outraged that some women would make a decision to take advantage of the offer described in the OP when really, it's not anything to do with anyone but the woman making the decision and no one's hand is being forced.

I'm not talking about your situation personally am I? Just commenting on the thread topic.
Nobody is outraged, it's just being discussed is all.

[Kizzy]

Yeah, let's have loads more kids with disabilities and other health related problems from being born of older women.

That's a relevant point, there are greater risks associated with older mothers 35+

[Livia]

I'm not talking about your situation personally am I? Just commenting on the thread topic.
Nobody is outraged, it's just being discussed is all.

That's why I said "and I'm one of many".

[Livia]

That's a relevant point, there are greater risks associated with older mothers 35+

Any woman deciding to have kids later will be well aware of the medical implications and would take that into consideration. It's their choice, and no one else's. Lots of women are having children later naturally. Again, their choice.

[Marsh.]

Any woman deciding to have kids later will be well aware of the medical implications and would take that into consideration. It's their choice, and no one else's. Lots of women are having children later naturally. Again, their choice.

Nobody said it wasn't their choice, however people are still allowed their opinion on it. It was based on Alex's comment anyway.

[smudgie]

All comes down to personal choice.
Just as long as the women look into it and understand the statistics, not every egg will work, they may end up childless.

As to working and having children, you have to find the happy medium, what works for you as a family.
In reality..you can't have it all, so maybe Just enough to keep you happy.

[Livia]

All comes down to personal choice.
Just as long as the women look into it and understand the statistics, not every egg will work, they may end up childless.

As to working and having children, you have to find the happy medium, what works for you as a family.
In reality..you can't have it all, so maybe Just enough to keep you happy.

Agree with all that Smudgie. Especially the last two sentences.

[Cherie]

I know this isn't going to be a popular comment, but I would much rather work with women who have no kids. In the past when I've worked with women who have a family their families quite rightly come first. Consequently those of us who don't have kids end up covering for them when their kids are sick, when their kids have sports day... all kinds of issues.


There is a huge difference between what you said above and working on after hours to finish a job, most women and men will take annual leave for child sickness and sports days etc so they will be covering someone else's annual leave at some point.

If you work on after others have left then I assume this has been agreed with management that they can leave? they don't down tools, and can they not be be productive and contribute from home? I work with people who live in the States Germany and Denmark and quite often I get calls before 8am and after 7pm, we teleconference, email and skype, just because I am sat at home doesn't mean I can't do my job! or contribute.

I disagree that you can't have it all, you can have it all if you have a good home support network and a supportive Manager, I really don't see how delaying pregnancy can help someones career, is it really the time to step aside and get pregnant once you hit the top of the ladder :suspect: I'm trying to envisage a pregnant PM or President...

[Vicky.]

Hmm. On the one hand I think its good for women to be given the opportunity

On the other hand I suspect this would be abused...those who have effectively signed away their right to have kids getting promoted above others etc...

[Livia]

Hmm. On the one hand I think its good for women to be given the opportunity

On the other hand I suspect this would be abused...those who have effectively signed away their right to have kids getting promoted above others etc...

Yes, I expect that would happen, not sure I'd call it "abuse". If someone's made the decision to delay motherhood, the option having been offered to her by her company, and then someone who has not made that commitment is promoted, I'm sure the person being overlooked might have cause to feel pretty pissed off.

Vicky, hi... haven't spoken to you for ages.

[Niamh.]

Yes, I expect that would happen, not sure I'd call it "abuse". If someone's made the decision to delay motherhood, the option having been offered to her by her company, and then someone who has not made that commitment is promoted, I'm sure the person being overlooked might have cause to feel pretty pissed off.

Vicky, hi... haven't spoken to you for ages.

That's completely unfair and sexist as well can I add, I'm sure that would qualify as discrimination. Would they pass over a man who has kids over a single man? I doubt it

[Vicky.]

Yes, I expect that would happen, not sure I'd call it "abuse". If someone's made the decision to delay motherhood, the option having been offered to her by her company, and then someone who has not made that commitment is promoted, I'm sure the person being overlooked might have cause to feel pretty pissed off.

Vicky, hi... haven't spoken to you for ages.

Disagree, the person promoted should be the best person for the job at the time, regardless of any other factors.. IMO anyway :S

I would say the person overlooked simply because they have kids would be more in the right to be pissed off :laugh:

And hi. I lurk a lot these days rather than post...cba with all the dramas

[Niamh.]

Disagree, the person promoted should be the best person for the job at the time, regardless of any other factors.. IMO anyway :S

I would say the person overlooked simply because they have kids would be more in the right to be pissed off :laugh:

And hi. I lurk a lot these days rather than post...cba with all the dramas

Exactly.

[Livia]

That's completely unfair and sexist as well can I add, I'm sure that would qualify as discrimination. Would they pass over a man who has kids over a single man? I doubt it

We're not talking about men here, we're talking about women having their eggs frozen.

So not at all discriminatory to the woman who'd committed to delaying motherhood, then? It's fine for her to delay it, and then be passed over for someone who's going to carry on and have a family?

Women sometimes can't have it all.

[Vicky.]

We're not talking about men here, we're talking about women having their eggs frozen.

So not at all discriminatory to the woman who'd committed to delaying motherhood, then? It's fine for her to delay it, and then be passed over for someone who's going to carry on and have a family?

Women sometimes can't have it all.

Well...no. Not if the other woman was better qualified for the promotion. If the woman who has delayed motherhood (and been paid a quite hefty sum to do so already I need to add) was actually better qualified and was for some reason looked over in favour of someone with a family then it would be discrimination :shrug:

[Livia]

Disagree, the person promoted should be the best person for the job at the time, regardless of any other factors.. IMO anyway :S

I would say the person overlooked simply because they have kids would be more in the right to be pissed off :laugh:

And hi. I lurk a lot these days rather than post...cba with all the dramas

Some jobs just aren't right for women who can't commit to them. That doesn't mean to say they're worth less, just that while they're raising children, they have other priorities. I'm not sure I could concentrate 100% if I had a sick child at home, for instance. However, if they have a husband who has taken on the childcare mantle, then that's a whole new ballgame.

Dramas? What dramas? :-)

Nice to see you.

[Livia]

Well...no. Not if the other woman was better qualified for the promotion. If the woman who has delayed motherhood (and been paid a quite hefty sum to do so already I need to add) was actually better qualified and was for some reason looked over in favour of someone with a family then it would be discrimination :shrug:

Qualifications are only part of the person spec.

[Niamh.]

We're not talking about men here, we're talking about women having their eggs frozen.

So not at all discriminatory to the woman who'd committed to delaying motherhood, then? It's fine for her to delay it, and then be passed over for someone who's going to carry on and have a family?

Women sometimes can't have it all.

So because a woman has decided to freeze her eggs she's automatically a better candidate for the job? That's complete discrimination.

[Livia]

So because a woman has decided to freeze her eggs she's automatically a better candidate for the job? That's complete discrimination.

If the company is paying for a female employee to have her eggs frozen I'm guessing she's going to be an employee they want to hang on to and is well qualified.

Anyway look, bugger off you two. We're not going to agree so I'm leaving it there. Unless you want to take it out to the car park? :fist:

[Niamh.]

If the company is paying for a female employee to have her eggs frozen I'm guessing she's going to be an employee they want to hang on to and is well qualified.

Anyway look, bugger off you two. We're not going to agree so I'm leaving it there. Unless you want to take it out to the car park? :fist:

Maybe employee number two was also offered the egg freezing as she was a much valued employee but said no? hhhmmmmm?

See you in the car park in 5 :hehe:

[Kizzy]

Hmm. On the one hand I think its good for women to be given the opportunity

On the other hand I suspect this would be abused...those who have effectively signed away their right to have kids getting promoted above others etc...

'I am aware nobody is forcing the women to do this however it is possible that if there was a promotion to be offered of the two female candidates the more 'productive human being' would perhaps unfairly have the advantage.
Also my comment earlier relating to contracts didn't mention anything about contraception and it's reliability, a woman may decide to move having children forward for any number of reasons. Also this would be limiting in the amount of children you have, the odds of having a child in later years are reduced drastically especially if you want to have more than one child'

Great minds eh? :D

[Livia]

Maybe employee number two was also offered the egg freezing as she was a much valued employee but said no? hhhmmmmm?

See you in the car park in 5 :hehe:

Then she doesn't have as much commitment to her career or the company as employee number one, so I know which one I'd be employing.

I can take you, you know, Niamh...

[Kizzy]

Well there we have it, the consensus in business will be that if a woman hasn't committed to freezing eggs and agreeing to postpone motherhood for X amount of years she will be considered to be not fully committed to her career...
Meanwhile will there be a similar sperm freezing facility?

[Niamh.]

Then she doesn't have as much commitment to her career or the company as employee number one, so I know which one I'd be employing.

I can take you, you know, Niamh...

The one who allows you to mess around with her reproductive system? :think: Who says she's still not the better candidate just because she doesn't want that invasive procedure carried out on her?

[Livia]

The one who allows you to mess around with her reproductive system? :think: Who says she's still not the better candidate just because she doesn't want that invasive procedure carried out on her?


Because there will come a time when Candidate No.2's kid is sick, and backs are to the wall, and a deadline is looming... and her mind will be at home and not on the job. Maybe she could build a career with a more suitable company. Maybe Mumsnet is hiring?

[Niamh.]

Because there will come a time when Candidate No.2's kid is sick, and backs are to the wall, and a deadline is looming... and her mind will be at home and not on the job. Maybe she could build a career with a more suitable company. Maybe Mumsnet is hiring?

So what you're saying is that you think it's ok to not promote a person who may be better for the job because some day she might have a kid who might be sick and she may need time off? :think:

[Marsh.]

Because there will come a time when Candidate No.2's kid is sick, and backs are to the wall, and a deadline is looming... and her mind will be at home and not on the job. Maybe she could build a career with a more suitable company. Maybe Mumsnet is hiring?

Well kids aren't the only "possible" interruption to someone's life. What if a parent gets sick? What if a partner is seriously ill? What if someone has an accident and requires care for disabilities?

What if? What if? What if? :fan: You can't pass someone over for a job on the off chance something could happen. Nobody knows what life will hold. :laugh:

A kid being off school ill doesn't always necessitate time off for the employee anyway.

[Livia]

So what you're saying is that you think it's ok to not promote a person who may be better for the job because some day she might have a kid who might be sick and she may need time off? :think:

No... I'm asking... why would someone even want a high-pressure job that demands your time without notice, if they had a family at home? Do you think it would be fair to her family? Again, if the husband/partner has taken on the childcare mantle, that's quite a different issue... but let's say he hasn't, or that she's a single Mum. Is that good for the kids? Or is it just good for the woman who wants to have it all?

[Livia]

Well kids aren't the only "possible" interruption to someone's life. What if a parent gets sick? What if a partner is seriously ill? What if someone has an accident and requires care for disabilities?

What if? What if? What if? :fan: You can't pass someone over for a job on the off chance something could happen. Nobody knows what life will hold. :laugh:

A kid being off school ill doesn't always necessitate time off for the employee anyway.

Yeah, stretching the discussion to its absolute limit there, Marshy. This is about women freezing their eggs and delaying motherhood for their career.

[Niamh.]

No... I'm asking... why would someone even want a high-pressure job that demands your time without notice, if they had a family at home? Do you think it would be fair to her family? Again, if the husband/partner has taken on the childcare mantle, that's quite a different issue... but let's say he hasn't, or that she's a single Mum. Is that good for the kids? Or is it just good for the woman who wants to have it all?

Why is that for you to decide though, if it is or it isn't ok for a woman with kids to go for a job like that? And if you're so concerned about their family life what about the kids that are produced from these frozen eggs when the mother is old and burnt out from this high powered job of hers?

[Livia]

Why is that for you to decide though, if it is or it isn't ok for a woman with kids to go for a job like that? And if you're so concerned about their family life what about the kids that are produced from these frozen eggs when the mother is old and burnt out from this high powered job of hers?

Why will she be old and burned out from her job? No one on here knows what age the women involved might want their kids. Lots of people have kids from frozen eggs... sometimes for medical reasons. People have IVF.... There are all kinds of ways to get pregnant that aren't "natural" but it doesn't diminish the experience so I don't know why this is being looked at like some kind of Frankenstein offer.

I love my job, I really do. It's a dream job... but if my circumstanced has been different I would probably have started, or at least be starting a family now. I wouldn't have expected to do a job like this because it would be an impossible balance. Women just can't have it all. It is not always possible.

[Niamh.]

Why will she be old and burned out from her job? No one on here knows what age the women involved might want their kids. Lots of people have kids from frozen eggs... sometimes for medical reasons. People have IVF.... There are all kinds of ways to get pregnant that aren't "natural" but it doesn't diminish the experience so I don't know why this is being looked at like some kind of Frankenstein offer.

I love my job, I really do. It's a dream job... but if my circumstanced has been different I would probably have started, or at least be starting a family now. I wouldn't have expected to do a job like this because it would be an impossible balance. Women just can't have it all. It is not always possible.

Well presumably these companies aren't paying for this process without getting their monies worth out of their employee? And why would these employees need to have their eggs frozen anyway if they were going to be of an age where conception is possible naturally when they decided to have kids?

[Livia]

Well presumably these companies aren't paying for this process without getting their monies worth out of their employee? And why would these employees need to have their eggs frozen anyway if they were going to be of an age where conception is possible naturally when they decided to have kids?

I guess you'd have to ask them that. That's their decision. Which was my original point.

[Niamh.]

I guess you'd have to ask them that. That's their decision. Which was my original point.

Ask them what? The whole point in having their eggs frozen is so they can have kids after nature won't let them.........

[Livia]

Ask them what? The whole point in having their eggs frozen is so they can have kids after nature won't let them.........

I think you'll find it's because fertility drops as you get older, doesn't it. It doesn't just suddenly stop.

[Vicky.]

Wonder how they will enforce this actually thinking about it properly...as unless the women in question also agree to go celibate until the end of their career they could still get pregnant anyway :S

[Niamh.]

I think you'll find it's because fertility drops as you get older, doesn't it. It doesn't just suddenly stop.

Yes as you get older into your 40's which is my point, and what does a woman do at that point then when she's climbed the ladder, retire so she can raise her kids? cos she won't fit in her swanky profession after she's popped one out, surely?

[Kizzy]

Wonder how they will enforce this actually thinking about it properly...as unless the women in question also agree to go celibate until the end of their career they could still get pregnant anyway :S

I mentioned this a couple of pages back too, there must be some restrictions either their job wont be held open to return or there is no maternity pay once signed.

[Cherie]

Yes as you get older into your 40's which is my point, and what does a woman do at that point then when she's climbed the ladder, retire so she can raise her kids? cos she won't fit in her swanky profession after she's popped one out, surely?


:laugh: I made this point on the last page it's not exactly the right time to get pregnant and have all that time off due to your ageing body not being able to cope with a first time pregnancy when you have just landed the Job as Head of Department

[Vicky.]

I mentioned this a couple of pages back too, there must be some restrictions either their job wont be held open to return or there is no maternity pay once signed.

Sorry, havent read through the thread yet. Seems we are definitely on the same page though :p

[Niamh.]

:laugh: I made this point on the last page it's not exactly the right time to get pregnant and have all that time off due to your ageing body not being able to cope with a first time pregnancy when you have just landed the Job as Head of Department

Exactly.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, stretching the discussion to its absolute limit there, Marshy. This is about women freezing their eggs and delaying motherhood for their career.

I was only following up a point that you brought up. :laugh:

Don't get smart arse lady. :fist:

[lily.]

No... I'm asking... why would someone even want a high-pressure job that demands your time without notice, if they had a family at home? Do you think it would be fair to her family? Again, if the husband/partner has taken on the childcare mantle, that's quite a different issue... but let's say he hasn't, or that she's a single Mum. Is that good for the kids? Or is it just good for the woman who wants to have it all?

Gotta say.. that's how I see it too. Some people want it all, and it's just not realistic.

[Cherie]

Gotta say.. that's how I see it too. Some people want it all, and it's just not realistic.

:umm2:it's realistic for men

[Cherie]

Well kids aren't the only "possible" interruption to someone's life. What if a parent gets sick? What if a partner is seriously ill? What if someone has an accident and requires care for disabilities?

What if? What if? What if? :fan: You can't pass someone over for a job on the off chance something could happen. Nobody knows what life will hold. :laugh:

A kid being off school ill doesn't always necessitate time off for the employee anyway.

That is such a good point, people take time off work for a myriad of reasons, not just child care

[Kizzy]

Interesting article on this topic...

'Egg-freezing is no guarantee of having a child, though. Studies indicate that women who have three rounds of egg retrieval at around $10,000 per round have a slightly more than 30 percent chance of giving birth if they are 25 or younger when the eggs are frozen. The closer women get to age 40, the lower the likelihood of success. If women limit themselves to the two rounds of egg retrieval covered by the new benefits, that also will reduce the odds.'

Seems that there is a chance that this procedure could fail based on the amount/quality of eggs retrieved, it's a massive gamble.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/10/17/356765423/silicon-valley-companies-add-new-benefit-for-women-egg-freezing

[Niamh.]

:umm2:it's realistic for men


Back to mumsnet with you :fist:

[Northern Monkey]

So as far as i understand,This is a choice.
Imo choice is never a bad thing.Choice is empowering.PEOPLE(men and women) have to choose what they want to do with their lives.Some choose to concentrate of raising a family,Some choose to concentrate solely on a career and some choose to take on a less demanding job and have a family and a career.Choices.We can't always have everything we want in life.

[Niamh.]

So as far as i understand,This is a choice.
Imo choice is never a bad thing.PEOPLE(men and women) have to choose what they want to do with their lives.Some choose to concentrate of raising a family,Some choose to concentrate solely on a career and some choose to take on a less demanding job and have a family and a career.Choices.We can't always have everything we want in life.


The men can choose to freeze their eggs so, yeah? Oh no sorry that's not an option

[Marsh.]

Back to mumsnet with you :fist:

The men can choose to freeze their eggs so, yeah? Oh no sorry that's not an option

:joker:

[Northern Monkey]

The men can choose to freeze their eggs so, yeah? Oh no sorry that's not an option
Stating the obvious but,Men and women are different.Some things will never be equal,Men won't be carrying kids anytime soon or getting 9 months maternity leave.Usually if a man chooses a time consuming career he gets very little time with his children,This is a sacrifice that has to be made in order to work in that kind of enviroment.Again choice.

[Niamh.]

Maybe then instead of offering to freeze women's eggs we should be offering more paternity for men so parents can share the load and women can become more productive humans :think:

[Northern Monkey]

Maybe then instead of offering to freeze women's eggs we should be offering more paternity for men so parents can share the load and women can become more productive humans :think:

I agree this should happen but i still don't think having extra choice is a bad thing as long as it is a fully informed choice.

[AnnieK]

Interesting article on this topic...

'Egg-freezing is no guarantee of having a child, though. Studies indicate that women who have three rounds of egg retrieval at around $10,000 per round have a slightly more than 30 percent chance of giving birth if they are 25 or younger when the eggs are frozen. The closer women get to age 40, the lower the likelihood of success. If women limit themselves to the two rounds of egg retrieval covered by the new benefits, that also will reduce the odds.'

Seems that there is a chance that this procedure could fail based on the amount/quality of eggs retrieved, it's a massive gamble.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/10/17/356765423/silicon-valley-companies-add-new-benefit-for-women-egg-freezing

It is a gamble....as I said earlier in the thread, I had perfectly viable embryos frozen and they didn't survive the thaw process....although Ruby had a much better experience. To be fair all fertility is a gamble....there is no way to know if you will fall pregnant unless you try....I guess it will boil down to how much go a gamble people are willing to take with their fertility and future family. And that is a decision that they alone (with their partner) must consider and make with no coercion.....

[lily.]

:umm2:it's realistic for men

I don't think it is... men with high flying careers are not what I would class as 'good fathers'. You can't buy your child's love.

[Cherie]

I don't think it is... men with high flying careers are not what I would class as 'good fathers'. You can't buy your child's love.

Men and women with not so well paying jobs may not see their children as much as they would like either though, they may have to work extra shifts, weekends, unsocial hours, bank holidays, Christmas if their jobs demand it or to make ends meet, and rely on breakfast and after school clubs to look after their children, so having a "non career type job" doesn't automatically grant you more time with your children.

[lily.]

Men and women with not so well paying jobs may not see their children as much as they would like either though, they may have to work extra shifts, weekends, unsocial hours, bank holidays, Christmas if their jobs demand it or to make ends meet, and rely on breakfast and after school clubs to look after their children, so having a "non career type job" doesn't automatically grant you more time with your children.

Very true.

However, having a 'career type job' will almost guarantee you less time with them.

[user104658]

Men and women with not so well paying jobs may not see their children as much as they would like either though, they may have to work extra shifts, weekends, unsocial hours, bank holidays, Christmas if their jobs demand it or to make ends meet, and rely on breakfast and after school clubs to look after their children, so having a "non career type job" doesn't automatically grant you more time with your children.
It's not so simple as that, though, it's more about "what you take home". i have a crappy middle management job with horrible hours (14 hour days, and work most weekends) BUT, when I'm not there I'm not there. The work phone is off and I can completely forget that I have a job at all as soon as I'm off the clock. It's not a distraction from family life the second I walk out that door.

Someone who is truly career driven in a more high pressure environment is NEVER off the clock. They bring work home with them, they have to be available to take calls and answer emails whether they're in the office or not that day. They might have to go to work at short notice.

Someone who is putting their all into a career path simply can't be fully engaged at home. Like I said earlier in the thread - the two just aren't compatible. Not that people can't hold down decently paid professional jobs and still be a family person... They can... But they can never be a "top of the pile" high flier. Achieving that sort of career is a 24/7 job. Being a parent is a 24/7 job. That's like... 48/14. Doesn't even make sense!