Should Ched Evans be allowed to sign for a Football Club again?

[Locke.]

He was convicted on a 5 year sentence in April 2012 and will be released this week.

Evans and another footballer, Clayton McDonald, were tried at the Crown Court at Caernarfon after being indicted of the rape of a 19-year-old woman, who was deemed too drunk to consent,[38] at a hotel near Rhyl in May 2011. Evans was convicted on 20 April 2012 and was sentenced to five years imprisonment. He will be eligible for release after serving half of that sentence.[36][39][40] In August 2012, Evans was refused leave to appeal against the conviction, and he appealed to the Court of Appeal of England and Wales,[41] this decision was upheld by the Court of Appeal in London in November.[42] Evans continues to maintain his innocence,[43] and in November 2013 recruited a new legal team to attempt to clear his name.[44] He is currently serving his sentence at HM Prison Wymott.

Footballer Ched Evans will leave prison this week, keen to get back to work after serving half of a five-year sentence for raping a 19-year-old woman in a hotel room. As I write, more than 140,000 people have signed a petition stating that Evans should not be allowed to return to professional football. But his former club Sheffield United are reportedly interested in re-signing the striker.

Moral arguments have been presented on both sides. Gordon Taylor, chief executive of the Professional Footballers’ Association, has pointed out that the law does not prevent ex-prisoners from working or resuming their old lives after release: “As a trade union we believe in the rule of law … besides that, [Evans] still wants to contribute to society. If he earns money he’ll pay taxes, those taxes will go to help people who maybe can’t get a job.”

There’s a certain consistency to Taylor’s first line of argument. If we respect the law that has found Evans guilty of rape, then shouldn’t we also respect the legal process that imposes a prison sentence, after which the convicted person is free to return to society?

Taylor’s claim about the social benefits of Evans’ return to work, meanwhile, appeals to two quite different kinds of moral argument: one based on motivation and the other based on consequences. The suggestion that “Evans wants to contribute to society” encourages us to regard him as a person of good will – and philosopher Immanuel Kant makes this concept of a good will or pure moral intention the sole criterion of morality. So Kant would deny that the tax revenue from Evans’ wages has any moral relevance, since only motivations, and not consequences, have moral worth. A strict utilitarian, in contrast, would take into account all social benefits arising from his potential return to Sheffield United.

Those campaigning against Evans emphasise a different set of issues. Katie Russell of Rape Crisis England has stated that her organisation “recognises the right of any convicted criminal to return to work after they’ve completed their sentence”. But for her, the cultural context gives this case a distinctive moral significance. Football is a high-profile, prestigious industry: players are celebrated and revered, not least by boys and young men. And with this public influence comes social responsibility.

If it were to bring Evans back into the team, Russell argues, Sheffield United would be failing “to send a very strong message that rape and sexual violence – and violence against women and girls more broadly – will not be tolerated within football”. According to this logic, the right to return to work can be sacrificed for the sake of a strong statement about cultural values. In other words, in this instance the ends justify the means.

Interest in this case, as with many morally ambiguous situations, arises from a deeper concern about what kind of people we should be, and what kind of society we want to live in. For Plato, this was the substance of all moral questions. One of the important messages in his Republic is the unbreakable connection between the personal and the social, the private and the public, the soul and the state. Cases like that of Evans, then, go to the heart of whether we want to be a society that promotes forgiveness – that allows people to make mistakes and move on – or one that chooses role models who embody gentleness and respect for others.

If it is hard to give a clear answer to this question, that is precisely because both sides are so compelling. Surely we should not give up on either forgiveness or providing positive role models. But the sting in the tail is that, however deep the moral dilemma, a practical decision needs to be made.

I do not know enough about what happened in that hotel room, nor about Evans’ attitude now, to say what should be done. But putting myself in the position of those who have to decide about his career, I see that the way through this problem involves posing the moral questions to Evans himself.

I would ask him if he felt able to exemplify values of dignity and kindness. His commitment to this would make it easier for me to take the stand for forgiveness. After all, we should not have to choose between these two ideals. Both can be realised in this case, but only if those involved take on the responsibility of living up to them.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/15/ched-evans-sentence-rape

[Tom4784]

I can see it from both sides of the argument. It sends a bad message to re-sign him but what is the point in the prison system if it prevents someone who has successfully completed a prison term from contributing to society? It's certainly a deterrent to reformation if ex-cons aren't given the chance to prove themselves.

It's a difficult one.

[lostalex]

If he's served his time that's that i suppose. Should he be allowed to have any job anywhere eve again? being a football player is no different to any other job. should he be allowed to work at Tesco?

[Niamh.]

I can see it from both sides of the argument. It sends a bad message to re-sign him but what is the point in the prison system if it prevents someone who has successfully completed a prison term from contributing to society? It's certainly a deterrent to reformation if ex-cons aren't given the chance to prove themselves.

It's a difficult one.

I think the nature of his job probably has a lot to do with it. Because he'd be in the limelight and a celebrity of sorts

[Z]

I think he should be allowed back, he's served his time, no need to punish the man for the rest of his life. His crime had nothing to do with his ability to play football. The thing he was convicted for is such a grey area anyway; it's as easy to imagine he took advantage of a drunk girl as it is to imagine they were both drunk, had sex and then she later claimed rape.

[Livia]

What's the point of making someone serve a sentence as punishment if the punishment is actually going to go on forever. If he is not allowed to return to his job, whatever that job may be, that will surely affect others who have served jail time, paid for their crime and then continued to be punished after they're released.

The exception would obviously be for people who have been convicted of crimes against children, they should obviously not be allowed to work with children ever again.

[lostalex]

What's the point of making someone serve a sentence as punishment if the punishment is actually going to go on forever. If he is not allowed to return to his job, whatever that job may be, that will surely affect others who have served jail time, paid for their crime and then continued to be punished after they're released.

The exception would obviously be for people who have been convicted of crimes against children, they should obviously not be allowed to work with children ever again.

yes i agree. or if a doctor is convicted of malpractice they should not be allowed to practice medicine, etc... or if he had committed a crime on the football pitch while playing football (like mike tyson biting evander hollyfield) then he should be banned from football. but considering his crime had nothing to do with playing football, i don't see the problem.

[lostalex]

I think he should be allowed back, he's served his time, no need to punish the man for the rest of his life. His crime had nothing to do with his ability to play football. The thing he was convicted for is such a grey area anyway; it's as easy to imagine he took advantage of a drunk girl as it is to imagine they were both drunk, had sex and then she later claimed rape.

no, he is definitely a rapist, pure and simple. considering how difficult it is to convict a man of rape there is no doubt he is guilty,. most rapists get off(no pun intended) so for him to be convicted means there was PLENTY of evidence and he most certainly is a rapist. there is no grey area in this case.

[Mitchell]

Totally, he's served his time.

Plus what message are we sending out saying that people that have served their time shouldn't return to their full time job and bring in taxes?

Rather a rapist earn his own money (and add thousands to the tax system) than claim benefits for the rest of his life.

[Amy Jade]

Nope. His job elevates him to a celebrity of sorts, his face could be in a paper somewhere and his victim sees it by accident. He should be allowed a job back in conjunction with football but not the one he had, keep him in the background.

[lostalex]

Nope. His job elevates him to a celebrity of sorts, his face could be in a paper somewhere and his victim sees it by accident. He should be allowed a job back in conjunction with football but not the one he had, keep him in the background.

Considering what we now know about the celebrities of the 80's and 90's on british TV, if you tried to keep all the sex offenders off you might as well just make TV illegal. Hell maybe we should just throw acid in everyone's eyes, blind the public just to make sure they don't see anything offensive.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The argument against seems to be about him being a role model for kids. Surely kids take no interest in the players criminal past even if they were made aware and could actually comprehend what he did?

[Livia]

The argument against seems to be about him being a role model for kids. Surely kids take no interest in the players criminal past even if they were made aware and could actually comprehend what he did?

Because generally, footballers are suitable role models?

[Kizzy]

Sportsmen and women are ambassadors of sorts and they are looked up to, they always have been seen as positive role models. This would send out a very odd message imo.

[lostalex]

Sportsmen and women are ambassadors of sorts and they are looked up to, they always have been seen as positive role models. This would send out a very odd message imo.

so maybe we should stop the media from propping up sports stars as heroes, ever consider that? maybe we should prop up scientists as heroes, is that crazy?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Sportsmen and women are ambassadors of sorts and they are looked up to, they always have been seen as positive role models. This would send out a very odd message imo.

Yes but only to adults, I doubt any 8 year old boy would understand

The role model bit comes on the pitch not off it.

[Amy Jade]

Considering what we now know about the celebrities of the 80's and 90's on british TV, if you tried to keep all the sex offenders off you might as well just make TV illegal. Hell maybe we should just throw acid in everyone's eyes, blind the public just to make sure they don't see anything offensive.

It flies the face of that whole situation and the outrage if a footballer (who gets paid very well) who is a convicted rapist is allowed back to that job and lifestyle.

[alex_front2]

He's served his time, time to move on. The pitch fork feminazis are actually makeing me feel sorry for Ched.

[Kizzy]

so maybe we should stop the media from propping up sports stars as heroes, ever consider that? maybe we should prop up scientists as heroes, is that crazy?

I've considered the thread topic, and commented on that.

[AnnieK]

Mmm its a tough one this. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is there to protect people who have committed a crime, served their sentence and want to return a workplace. There are few places where, had he not been famous, he would have had to declare this sentence unless he was applying for a position that is exempt from the Act - the Forces, NHS, Police, working with certain categories of people - children, vulnerable adults etc and so is it fair that once rehabilitated by prison the very nature of who he is not what he did should stop him from returning to his previous career? It wouldn't stop other people and his name will be forever tarnished and maybe if he is allowed to return it will show young offenders that if you do do your time and keep your nose clean, your life doesn't have to stop forever. I know people will jump on me for that because the victims life has been affected forever but he has been punished and undertaken the sentence as declared by the court......

[Ramsay]

No. **** him.

[Niamh.]

No. **** him.

You feminazi :fist:

[MTVN]

Fact is really that for all their public prominence sports stars often aren't great people, and shouldn't be expected to be squeaky clean role models for kids to look up to. Evans would not be alone in continuing his career after a serious crime, at Forest Green one of our star strikers Lee Hughes did three years for death by dangerous driving. Over in the states the NFL has got all sorts of scumbags still playing; you'll find them in most sports if not on the same scale.

The nature of his career means he's sort of in the public eye (though at the very best he'd be returning to a League 1 club) but I don't think that alone is reason to heap extra punishment on him once he's served his sentence. Leave it as a moral decision for any club who might want to sign him but don't physically bar him from football completely.

[Mystic Mock]

Footballers think that they can get away with whatever they want to, they need to use him as an example and ban him as his life should be affected forever after what he did to that girl, and it would teach other Footballers a lesson not to make the same mistake that Ched Evans made.

[lostalex]

Footballers think that they can get away with whatever they want to, they need to use him as an example and ban him as his life should be affected forever after what he did to that girl, and it would teach other Footballers a lesson not to make the same mistake that Ched Evans made.

yea, that's not how justice works. You can't punish a footballer for what other footballers MIGHT do in the future.

I do agree that footballers should be taken down a few pegs, but that's the job of the league and the media, you can't do it by just punishing this one person. He shouldn't be made a scapegoat for all of the problems in our sport and media culture.

[Mystic Mock]

yea, that's not how justice works. You can't punish a footballer for what other footballers MIGHT do in the future.

I do agree that footballers should be taken down a few pegs, but that's the job of the league and the media, you can't do it by just punishing this one person. He shouldn't be made a scapegoat for all of the problems in our sport and media culture.

I'm saying that the English FA and any other Football Associations need to ban anyone that commits a really serious crime, starting with this Ched Evans as his the most recent case.

Footballers and criminals in general should not go back to their lives as normal if they have affected someone elses life on purpose as what sort of punishment is that? Especially considering Ched Evans only spent a few years in prison anyway with the cosy XBOX, so I doubt his been punished that badly.

[lostalex]

but if you just focus on him, and really put his nose to the grindstone, he becomes a scapegoat and everyone gets to go on as normal thinking, oh we took care of him so we have solved the problem. that's not addressing the systematic problems in the league and the media.

It's like the jimmy saville case, we can all focus all the attention on him and horrible he was, but how many real changes have been made systematically at the BBC? none. Name one thing that's changed at the BBC after that whole fiasco? nothing, we just all think, ohh he's just one bad egg, even with all the evidence that it was systematic and that the BBC covered it up and must have covered up countless other stars, nothing has changed in the system. same for the catholic church. when you just focus on specific cases it does no good.

The systems in place create the permissive environment for these monsters to thrive. The media, the environment gives them a playground.

[Mitchell]

Nope. His job elevates him to a celebrity of sorts, his face could be in a paper somewhere and his victim sees it by accident. He should be allowed a job back in conjunction with football but not the one he had, keep him in the background.

But isn't he front page of the paper now with all this stuff going on? I sort of feel that saying he should work in the background is like saying that someone can return to work at the local sweet shop, but they have to be behind at all times.

Although we have to protect her as much as him, so I see where you're coming from

[Novo]

Would he be in any condition to do so anyway? but personally I don't think I would want him if I owned or managed a club same with Lee Hughes, I wouldn't hold it against other clubs though, just seems to much baggage for it to be worth the time I suppose with Lee Hughes though he got his head back on the game and had a successful career at Notts County so their can be light at the end of the tunnel for people in these situations if others are willing to give them a chance, not sure I could do though. like others have said though he has served his time so he should he at least allowed to get his life back on track now, maybe he's a scumbag but he's still a human being with rights

[joeysteele]

What's the point of making someone serve a sentence as punishment if the punishment is actually going to go on forever. If he is not allowed to return to his job, whatever that job may be, that will surely affect others who have served jail time, paid for their crime and then continued to be punished after they're released.

The exception would obviously be for people who have been convicted of crimes against children, they should obviously not be allowed to work with children ever again.

Absolutely this,I agree with every word of this post.

[Amy Jade]

But isn't he front page of the paper now with all this stuff going on? I sort of feel that saying he should work in the background is like saying that someone can return to work at the local sweet shop, but they have to be behind at all times.

Although we have to protect her as much as him, so I see where you're coming from
I understand the argument that he should not be punished forever and if he was a shop assistant and he could return to a job and the victim was not around him then that's fine but he was a job which means he could be in the papers day in day out and his victim have to suffer seeing him again and again just by simply getting on a train and seeing a newspaper on a seat with his face on it.

I'm not against him earning a living but such a high profile one...I don't personally feel he should be allowed to return to it.

[Shaun]

I voted no from the football club's point of view. I wouldn't dream of signing him; it's a PR nightmare and whilst he's indeed served his sentence it's always going to antagonise fans, and it's a pretty poor message to the victim of him. I'm not sure on the issue really, I just wouldn't sign him.

[user104658]

"Playing Footie" is not a position of care / responsibility so, yes, he should be able to continue doing it once he has served his sentence. If an ex-con can't go back to something like that then, surely, you're basically saying that they can't do anything ever again. It's basically the least important job in the world.

[user104658]

I voted no from the football club's point of view. I wouldn't dream of signing him; it's a PR nightmare and whilst he's indeed served his sentence it's always going to antagonise fans, and it's a pretty poor message to the victim of him. I'm not sure on the issue really, I just wouldn't sign him.

That is, of course, a completely separate issue to him being "allowed". Of course no one should be forced to sign him to their team. But that's different to it being disallowed.

[Locke.]

Obviously it's not speaking for all their fans, but their biggest forum are 70% in favour of resigning him - http://www.s24su.com/forum/index.php?threads/simple-yes-or-no.36371/

[Brother Leon]

If he's good enough to play.

[Redway]

Nope.

[Northern Monkey]

I believe it should be down to the employer if they want to employ convicted criminals.

[user104658]

Thinking about it - he's not kicked a ball (other than maybe a little prison kickabout) for 2 and a half years... he's probably pretty **** now, so it won't really matter.

[Kizzy]

"Playing Footie" is not a position of care / responsibility so, yes, he should be able to continue doing it once he has served his sentence. If an ex-con can't go back to something like that then, surely, you're basically saying that they can't do anything ever again. It's basically the least important job in the world.


I disagree with that, they may not ask to be but they are looked up to by many fans of all ages. They are required to behave in a way that will not bring the club or the sport into disrepute, as the top sportspersons in their field their job is important to reflect how those associated with football in the UK behave.

[Shaun]

That is, of course, a completely separate issue to him being "allowed". Of course no one should be forced to sign him to their team. But that's different to it being disallowed.

I know :p He should be allowed, but I think clubs would be wise to avoid him.

[the truth]

of course he should be allowed to play football, what an absurd question

[user104658]

[/B]

I disagree with that, they may not ask to be but they are looked up to by many fans of all ages. They are required to behave in a way that will not bring the club or the sport into disrepute, as the top sportspersons in their field their job is important to reflect how those associated with football in the UK behave.
That may well be the official line but, let's face it, it's not the reality... Most high level footballers are a shower of *****. He'll fit right back in.

[lily.]

That may well be the official line but, let's face it, it's not the reality... Most high level footballers are a shower of *****. He'll fit right back in.

Ain't that the truth. lol

[arista]

Nope.


but the Club may re-hire him

He can never work near children now



Will the Boss of the Club
get abuse? - Maybe

[rubymoo]

I might be a bit controversial here.

Definition of rape:

The crime, typically committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will.

He didn't force her against her will, yes she was intoxicated, but he had also been drinking, i think he took advantage of a drunken young lady, but surely she should take responsibility for being that drunk.

There are a lot of opportunists out there and that's exactly what he did, he saw an opportunity and took it, was it right.....no! Did he make a bad judgement.....yes!

I think this highlights the problem with alcohol and i don't think he should have been charged with rape.....and i say this from experience, when i was 14 i got very drunk and a 17 year old friend fancied me, i had told him before i got drunk that we were just friends and i didn't see him that way.......fast forward a couple of hours to me being very drunk and him having sex with me on a bathroom floor, did i cry rape.......no.......why........because he took advantage of a very drunken girl, we had both been drinking and we both needed to take responsibility, that's how i see it.

I think she took the opportunity to make some money off him, seeing as he was a very well known footballer, this is just my opinion.

[Niamh.]

wow when you were 14 Ruby? That's pretty bad, he could have actually been charged for statutory rape considering how young you were, even if you had been sober.

[rubymoo]

wow when you were 14 Ruby? That's pretty bad, he could have actually been charged for statutory rape considering how young you were, even if you had been sober.

I know!

But it was a bad decision on both parts, so i feel non of us should be blamed/accused and i think this is where legally things get a bit sticky.

There is a definition of what rape is and this definition should be stuck to, however with date rape drugs being used it makes things even more difficult as there is intent behind date rape, if it can be proven that date rape drugs were used by an offender to gain sex then this is rape, the society in which we live in is ever changing and maybe there should be an overhaul regarding laws in this area.

As you know i have young teenagers myself and i've already educated them and will continue to educate them on the danger of alcohol and drugs.

[arista]

[I think she took the opportunity to make some money off him, seeing as he was a very well known footballer, this is just my opinion. ]


Sure
but there is Massive Help Rape Group against him
they forget that.

[Niamh.]

I know!

But it was a bad decision on both parts, so i feel non of us should be blamed/accused and i think this is where legally things get a bit sticky.

There is a definition of what rape is and this definition should be stuck to, however with date rape drugs being used it makes things even more difficult as there is intent behind date rape, the society in which we live in is ever changing and maybe there should be an overhaul regarding laws in this area.

As you know i have young teenagers myself and i've already educated them and will continue to educate them on the danger of alcohol and drugs.

I don't know, there's a massive difference between a 14 year old and a 17 year old imo, 3 years is alot more than 3 years at that age If you were my daughter (and I have a 14 year old daughter atm) I would probably kill that boy :/

[rubymoo]

I don't know, there's a massive difference between a 14 year old and a 17 year old imo, 3 years is alot more than 3 years at that age If you were my daughter (and I have a 14 year old daughter atm) I would probably kill that boy :/

Awww thanks Niamh. (I did tell my mum and dad but they said i was stupid for getting drunk.)

You just brought tears to my eyes......

(Your motherly instinct touched my heart)

[Niamh.]

Awww thanks Niamh. (I did tell my mum and dad but they said i was stupid for getting drunk.)

You just brought tears to my eyes......

:hug:

[rubymoo]

:hug:

:hug:

[Livia]

How long do we think someone should go on serving their sentence once they've served their jail sentence?

I don't have any problems with him playing. Most people know footballers are, in the main, uneducated, unrefined lads who are good at sport. They're not diplomats... and anyone who's ever been to a football match will know that it's the last place you should be taking kids to give them a moral compass.

[rubymoo]

How long do we think someone should go on serving their sentence once they've served their jail sentence?

I don't have any problems with him playing. Most people know footballers are, in the main, uneducated, unrefined lads who are good at sport. They're not diplomats... and anyone who's ever been to a football match will know that it's the last place you should be taking kids to give them a moral compass.

I agree with you Livia.

He's served his time, he's the one who's going to have to live with that "shadow" over himself for the rest of his life.

Let him play football.

[lime]

No he should never be allowed play for a premership club or any club again because he is a a convictetd rapist...jugded not only by a jury but also by a panel of judges who have far more info than whe have........

[Livia]

No he should never be allowed play for a premership club or any club again because he is a a convictetd rapist...jugded not only by a jury but also by a panel of judges who have far more info than whe have........

And he was sentenced to serve a jail term, which he served. And now he's out. You can't continue to make him serve any kind of sentence once he's done his time, it's a ridiculous concept. If you're going to say that rapists are damned for all time, even after serving their sentence, then you're going to have to say that anyone who commits any kind of crime should still be punished even after they complete their sentence.

The information available to the judge and jury is of no relevance here as his sentence is complete and he is free to continue his life.

[Z]

I just think the context of this needs to be taken into account too - he didn't violently beat her or stalk her and rape her in an alley; they were two drunk people who hooked up and she said she didn't consent so he was convicted of rape. He's not a violent offender or a likely repeat offender; he's served his sentence and his crime doesn't affect his ability to do his job. Let him play.

[lime]

And he was sentenced to serve a jail term, which he served. And now he's out. You can't continue to make him serve any kind of sentence once he's done his time, it's a ridiculous concept. If you're going to say that rapists are damned for all time, even after serving their sentence, then you're going to have to say that anyone who commits any kind of crime should still be punished even after they complete their sentence.

The information available to the judge and jury is of no relevance here as his sentence is complete and he is free to continue his life.

I am not saying that this conviced rapist should be able to have a job... what i am saying is that he sould not be in a postion were what he did is considered ok to do this

[Livia]

I am not saying that this conviced rapist should be able to have a job... what i am saying is that he sould not be in a postion were what he did is considered ok to do this

I don't think anyone would ever think it's okay, would they? It's a horrible crime, and despite him still upholding that he was innocent, he was convicted, so that's that. For the rest of his life, anywhere he goes, he will always be known as a convicted rapist. And frankly, if I was in his position no way would I want to walk out onto a pitch and face the chants and hate from opposing fans which will undoubtedly be relentless.

[Livia]

I just think the context of this needs to be taken into account too - he didn't violently beat her or stalk her and rape her in an alley; they were two drunk people who hooked up and she said she didn't consent so he was convicted of rape. He's not a violent offender or a likely repeat offender; he's served his sentence and his crime doesn't affect his ability to do his job. Let him play.

Zee <3 xx

I agree completely... but you know that's not a particularly well-received opinion, Judy Finnegan will tell you that!

[lime]

I don't think anyone would ever think it's okay, would they? It's a horrible crime, and despite him still upholding that he was innocent, he was convicted, so that's that. For the rest of his life, anywhere he goes, he will always be known as a convicted rapist. And frankly, if I was in his position no way would I want to walk out onto a pitch and face the chants and hate from opposing fans which will undoubtedly be relentless.

for the rest of his life....yes he will be consirered a rapist ....that is what he is...in am sout african ...so trust me ..i know what rape is

[Livia]

for the rest of his life....yes he will be consirered a rapist ....that is what he is...in am sout african ...so trust me ..i know what rape is

No country has the monopoly on rape, it's sadly a world-wide occurrence.

[Redway]

of course he should be allowed to play football, what an absurd question

It sparks a nationwide moral debate, hardly an absurd question. Then again coming from someone like you I'm not surprised.

[lime]

No country has the monopoly on rape, it's sadly a world-wide occurrence.

you are dead right.....no country has the monoply on rape.....but unfortutaly it is in SA quite common ...sometimes people are raped just because they are gay...I have raped because i was white....so whilst I have no prob with you livia I think that you can only have an opinion on rape once you have being raped....but I do enjoy your posts

[lime]

you are dead right.....no country has the monoply on rape.....but unfortutaly it is in SA quite common ...sometimes people are raped just because they are gay...I have raped because i was white....so whilst I have no prob with you livia I think that you can only have an opinion on rape once you have being raped....but I do enjoy your posts

Oh dear please excucse my engliish...its not my first lanuage

[Livia]

you are dead right.....no country has the monoply on rape.....but unfortutaly it is in SA quite common ...sometimes people are raped just because they are gay...I have raped because i was white....so whilst I have no prob with you livia I think that you can only have an opinion on rape once you have being raped....but I do enjoy your posts

You can only have an opinion on rape once you've been raped? Are you serious? I have no problem with you either, and not to belittle your horrible experience, for which you have my sympathy, everyone is entitled for form an opinion. I've spent some time in the Middle East this year where rape is used as a weapon of war. I have an opinion on that too... a very strong opinion. The main one being that it bears no resemblance to getting pissed and going back to a footballer's room.

[Niamh.]

you are dead right.....no country has the monoply on rape.....but unfortutaly it is in SA quite common ...sometimes people are raped just because they are gay...I have raped because i was white....so whilst I have no prob with you livia I think that you can only have an opinion on rape once you have being raped....but I do enjoy your posts

Oh I'm so sorry to hear that Lime :( I agree some countries are worse then others, just look at India as another example

[Livia]

Oh dear please excucse my engliish...its not my first lanuage

Hey, you're doing much better than some people who do have English as a first language!

[lime]

Hey, you're doing much better than some people who do have English as a first language!

had to take a moment and thank you both Livia and niamh....Livia I am not saying you can not have an opinion on rape...its just that when it has happened to you your opininion whill prob be diffferennt.......again I love your posts

[Kizzy]

No means no, and if the person you wish to have sex with happens to be asleep/passed out you wait and ask when they are lucid... If you don't it's rape.

I can't believe I'm having to explain that.

Rape has risen by 29% in the last year, shocking and saddening statistic.

[Livia]

had to take a moment and thank you both Livia and niamh....Livia I am not saying you can not have an opinion on rape...its just that when it has happened to you your opininion whill prob be diffferennt.......again I love your posts

Yes, I understand that. Your opinion is bound to be different when you've gone through something like that. Love your posts too.

[arista]

Next Week he is going to give TV News and Radio
a "Profound Statement"


it has been reported today
he left in fast grey 4 by 4
before daylight

"Clever"

[arista]

[Prisoner of fear: How victim of soccer rapist Ched Evans was forced
to change her name and move home after online abuse... while He remains
sickeningly remorseless and even held a party after being freed from jail
Victim has been moved away from friends and family under new identity
Move came after she was identified online and abused by Evans' supporters
Campaign website for Evans funded by millionaire father of his girlfriend
Long-term partner Natasha Massey, 25, is standing by disgraced sportsman
Ched Evans has been offered £500,000 contract with Sheffield United]


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2797829/football-rapist-ched-evans-free-spitting-defiance-s-victim-prisoner-fear.html#ixzz3GUWiwpQg

[lostalex]

I know!

But it was a bad decision on both parts, so i feel non of us should be blamed/accused and i think this is where legally things get a bit sticky.

There is a definition of what rape is and this definition should be stuck to, however with date rape drugs being used it makes things even more difficult as there is intent behind date rape, if it can be proven that date rape drugs were used by an offender to gain sex then this is rape, the society in which we live in is ever changing and maybe there should be an overhaul regarding laws in this area.

As you know i have young teenagers myself and i've already educated them and will continue to educate them on the danger of alcohol and drugs.

It's not a bad decision on both parts. Getting drunk is only hurting yourself. A Man raping you was him attacking and hurting someone else. How do you not understand the difference?

You sound like one of those battered women that says "i shouldn't have made him angry" after her husband punches her face in. WAKE UP!

[arista]

a Wise Woman just on SkyNewsHD
said Ched needs to tell people to not pick on the victim
she has had to move homes and change her name etc.

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/18/article-2797829-225357D700000578-842_968x384.jpg

[lostalex]

a Wise Woman just on SkyNewsHD
said Ched needs to tell people to not pick on the victim
she has had to move homes and change her name etc.
so why are you posting pictures if you want her to be safe and protected?

[arista]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2178032/thumbs/o-CHED-EVANS-570.jpg
Ched and his Woman

[lostalex]

you are being a hypocrite of the highest order.

[arista]

so why are you posting pictures if you want her to be safe and protected?


Her face is not shown


the photo on the Far Right is his woman

[lostalex]

Her face is not shown


the photo on the Far Right is his woman

then what does she have to do with it and why are you posting more pics. you are a tabloid queen./ you are always a tabloid queen. you are no different then perez hilton around here.

You are our local Perez Hilton. our Tabloid QUEEN. yes QUEEn boy.

Queen Arista is your new name. because you act like a tabloid Queen.

[arista]

then what does she have to do with it and why are you posting more pics. you are a tabloid queen./ you are always a tabloid queen. you are no different then perez hilton around here.

You are our local Perez Hilton. our Tabloid QUEEN. yes QUEEn boy.

Queen Arista is your new name. because you act like a tabloid Queen.


A Great Deal
she has been on our TV News, just before this criminal was let out

Pictures are very important
you can ignore them
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/17/1413582373488_Image_galleryImage_Ched_Evans_and_gi rlfriend.JPG

[lostalex]

Queen Arista/ make sure to deposit your tampons in the appropriate bin, you cannot flush them in the toilet.

[arista]

No one wants You Banned again


Stay on Topic

[lostalex]

No one wants You Banned again


Stay on Topic

tampons in the toilet will back up the entire septic system bro. be wary/ the pipes are old.

[arista]

You must have had a bad night
8:51AM there

[lostalex]

You must have had a bad night
8:51AM there

52/

[rubymoo]

It's not a bad decision on both parts. Getting drunk is only hurting yourself. A Man raping you was him attacking and hurting someone else. How do you not understand the difference?

You sound like one of those battered women that says "i shouldn't have made him angry" after her husband punches her face in. WAKE UP!


Wow......judgemental!

I have no idea how you came up with that.........

I was a 14 year old and he was a 17, we both made bad decisions, my mum was a battered wife and i vowed that that would never be me, i suggest you think about what you type before you type it:nono:

As you have suggested in previous posts on other threads you have experimented and as a 14 year old i tried alcohol, i learnt from that and i also learnt that there are many opportunists out there who are willing to take advantage, i by no means sound like a battered wife, and i am highly offended by you implying that that's how i came across.

[arista]

[/B]

Wow......judgemental!

I have no idea how you came up with that.........

I was a 14 year old and he was a 17, we both made bad decisions, my mum was a battered wife and i vowed that that would never be me, i suggest you think about what you type before you type it:nono:

As you have suggested in previous posts on other threads you have experimented and as a 14 year old i tried alcohol, i learnt from that and i also learnt that there are many opportunists out there who are willing to take advantage, i by no means sound like a battered wife, and i am highly offended by you implying that that's how i came across.


he is in California
its another world there

[rubymoo]

he is in California
its another world there

Thanks Arista

I sometimes wonder if certain humans are devolving:hehe:

[lily.]

a Wise Woman just on SkyNewsHD
said Ched needs to tell people to not pick on the victim
she has had to move homes and change her name etc.

That is horrendous. Anonymous keyboard warriors terrorising the poor woman. I hate people sometimes..

[arista]

[New Ched Evans Rape Inquiry Will Be Fast-Tracked]

Rich Dad gets his boy to the Front of the line

[A "substantive" investigation into Ched Evans' rape conviction
is expected to take place "within the next few weeks",
the Criminal Cases Review Commission has said.
The disgraced footballer, who continues to protest his innocence,
has had his case prioritised by the body,
which examines possible miscarriages of justice.]


http://news.sky.com/story/1355968/ched-evans-rape-inquiry-will-be-fast-tracked

[Nedusa]

I have read some reports on this story and am a little confused as the Police arrested both Ched and Clayton at the Station, where they both had gone to discuss the events of the previous night.

They acknowledged that the only evidence that sexual activity had taken place was their own admission. There was no complaint of Rape, no forensic evidence, no injury and no complaint.

So how did this strange situation result in a young footballer being convicted of rape and sentenced to 5 years in prison, not withstanding the fact that the other man who also admitted to having consenual sex with this woman was aquitted ???

Also this young woman wanted to have sex with the footballer and even asked the other man (clayton) to ask Ched to come up to the room for sex. she even tweeted that she was involved with a professional footballer.

So how the hell was this ever proved as rape by the footballer in a court of law by a Jury when as stated above there was no complaint of rape no injury , no forensic evidence.

How could this be proved as RAPE...??

I'm pretty sure this conviction will be challenged and ultimately overturned. This young woman is partly to blame for this and although I do not condone the behaviour of both men I fail to see how one of them could be convicted of Rape.

Strange case.

[arista]

I have read some reports on this story and am a little confused as the Police arrested both Ched and Clayton at the Station, where they both had gone to discuss the events of the previous night.

They acknowledged that the only evidence that sexual activity had taken place was their own admission. There was no complaint of Rape, no forensic evidence, no injury and no complaint.

So how did this strange situation result in a young footballer being convicted of rape and sentenced to 5 years in prison, not withstanding the fact that the other man who also admitted to having consenual sex with this woman was aquitted ???

Also this young woman wanted to have sex with the footballer and even asked the other man (clayton) to ask Ched to come up to the room for sex. she even tweeted that she was involved with a professional footballer.

So how the hell was this ever proved as rape by the footballer in a court of law by a Jury when as stated above there was no complaint of rape no injury , no forensic evidence.

How could this be proved as RAPE...??

I'm pretty sure this conviction will be challenged and ultimately overturned. This young woman is partly to blame for this and although I do not condone the behaviour of both men I fail to see how one of them could be convicted of Rape.

Strange case.


But she has Moved Home
and had to change her name


He was found guilty


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/20/1413797331523_wps_4_image001_png.jpg

[Northern Monkey]

How the fcuk is this woman scarred for life... Lol she is a fcuking slag who sleeps with footballers in the sad hope of becoming a wag.

A slapper in every sense of the word, and now this young stupid footballer has paid the ultimate price and has had his life ruined because of this woman's lies.

Still cannot believe this ever came to court and resulted in a guilty verdict wtf ???

Hope this conviction is overturned and overturned soon...!!!

Yes,This tends to be my opinion too.So many of these false rape allegations happened recently cos these girls know they can get cash from papers and mags.They should be jailed for trying to ruin peoples lives and undermining genuine rape cases.

[Niamh.]

How the fcuk is this woman scarred for life... Lol she is a fcuking slag who sleeps with footballers in the sad hope of becoming a wag.

A slapper in every sense of the word, and now this young stupid footballer has paid the ultimate price and has had his life ruined because of this woman's lies.

Still cannot believe this ever came to court and resulted in a guilty verdict wtf ???

Hope this conviction is overturned and overturned soon...!!!

Yes,This tends to be my opinion too.So many of these false rape allegations happened recently cos these girls know they can get cash from papers and mags.They should be jailed for trying to ruin peoples lives and undermining genuine rape cases.

wow.

[Nedusa]

wow.

Although I may have reservations about this case, be assured in no way do I condone the behaviour of these men who took advantage of this woman's stupid actions. They are guilty of taking advantage of this woman, but as to whether they set out that evening to rape a woman , well I would seriously doubt that also. Either way there are no winners in this case but Ched Evans is the loser here his life destroyed by the consequences of his actions that night.

Rape in the fullest sense I doubt but that is now the badge he carries around for evermore.




.

[user104658]

I do have my reservations in cases like this, mainly because of something that happened at a party in my school year. A female friend of mine got very drunk at a party, woke up and err... "realised"... That a guy in our year lay next to her had had sex with her. She mentioned this to some people, quite horrified, saying that he had had sex with her when she had passed out drunk... Someone confronted him, He swore on his life that she was not passed out and that they were just BOTH equally drunk and it had all been consensual, and she in turn swore that she didn't / wouldn't have and all she remembers is going to the bedroom and must have passed out.

It then transpired that one of Her friends had also been in the room trying to sleep on the floor (... Classy...) And had witnessed the entire encounter, that she was awake, and that she had definitely explicitly consented.

I know the girl wasn't lying - her having huge memory gaps from nights out was pretty common so I fully believe that she couldn't remember any of it. But even she accepted that it must have been a consensual encounter after her friend described how it happened, and even started to then remember it in flashes and that she had, for want of a better phrase, been "up for it at the time", and was fine with it after that.

What does really worry me is that if there hadn't been someone else there to give an unbiased account of events, she was SO sure he had abused her in her sleep, that it could all have gone really badly.

Without another witness, when a lot of alcohol is involved, can anyone's recounting of events really be confirmed as totally accurate? Like I said it's not even about "lying". People just get things wrong.

[Kizzy]

Don't prosecutors have to prove beyond reasonable doubt to get a guilty verdict?
There must have been sufficient evidence or he wouldn't have been found guilty, twitter hate campaigns with these online vigilantes are really unnerving.

[Niamh.]

Don't prosecutors have to prove beyond reasonable doubt to get a guilty verdict?
There must have been sufficient evidence or he wouldn't have been found guilty, twitter hate campaigns with these online vigilantes are really unnerving.

Well that's the thing, people on Cheds side or (anti this girls side) seem to be saying it like she consented but changed her mind the next morning and he was found guilty of rape. There must have been more to it then just that for a jury to find him guilty of rape

[Nedusa]

Well that's the thing, people on Cheds side or (anti this girls side) seem to be saying it like she consented but changed her mind the next morning and he was found guilty of rape. There must have been more to it then just that for a jury to find him guilty of rape

Maybe.....Maybe Not


Sometimes even juries can get it wrong, plus we are now being told there is new evidence that was not presented at the trial.

All in All I think this may prove to be an unsafe conviction and subsequently overturned.





.

[Kyle]

Well that's the thing, people on Cheds side or (anti this girls side) seem to be saying it like she consented but changed her mind the next morning and he was found guilty of rape. There must have been more to it then just that for a jury to find him guilty of rape

You mean like Ched's family, his girlfriend and Sheffield United fans?

On another note I thought his sister and girlfriend's undisputed appearance on this morning last week was a joke tbh. Have them on it's fine but at least have someone to dispute everything they Said.

[Kizzy]

Maybe.....Maybe Not


Sometimes even juries can get it wrong, plus we are now being told there is new evidence that was not presented at the trial.

All in All I think this may prove to be an unsafe conviction and subsequently overturned.





.

Juries can but judges can't... either the evidence is there or it isn't.
'new' evidence sounds dodgy, but let's see what happens.

[arista]

Ched is a rapist, says his aunt: Relative attacks footballer for not showing remorse and believes he deserved to go to prison

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2805903/Ched-rapist-says-aunt-Relative-attacks-footballer-not-showing-remorse-believes-deserved-prison.html#ixzz3H3tOPJHt

[user104658]

Don't prosecutors have to prove beyond reasonable doubt to get a guilty verdict?

Supposedly but this, then, assumes that innocent people don't go to prison which is unfortunately just completely false. There are undoubtedly plenty of innocent people in prison... no system is perfect, and our criminal justice system (whilst admittedly better than many other countries, even developed ones, *cough cough* South Africa *cough*) is a system that is FAR from perfect.




Sometimes even juries can get it wrong, plus we are now being told there is new evidence that was not presented at the trial.

(Allegedly) something that couldn't be mentioned during the trial, as it pertained to a different case that was thrown out of court, is that she made the same accusation against two professional Rugby players at an earlier date... and they were both aquitted. Now, call me cynical, but if she really had been attacked by two Rugby players and that aquittal was wrong, would she really have then been putting herself into that situation again? And if the aquittal was right and no such attack occurred... would it not be logical to assume that she was simply "trying again"?

No one can say for sure, I suppose.

[Benjamin]

Nope. His job elevates him to a celebrity of sorts, his face could be in a paper somewhere and his victim sees it by accident. He should be allowed a job back in conjunction with football but not the one he had, keep him in the background.

I agree, Sorry but glorifying a rapist back into celebrity status is just as bad as carrying on a punishment. The message that sends out is that it doesn't matter if you rape somebody you can still go back to being a celebrity.

[user104658]

I agree, Sorry but glorifying a rapist back into celebrity status is just as bad as carrying on a punishment. The message that sends out is that it doesn't matter if you rape somebody you can still go back to being a celebrity.

Not meaning to play devil's advocate here but... is it really his fault that his chosen career (professional football) carries celebrity status? It's not like, say, Big Brother celebs who are seeking fame for the sake of fame... it just so happens that football has a lot of interest and so footballers are recognisable public figures. I'd say that most pro sportspeople set out to make a living from engaging in sport, rather than seeking fame / celebrity...

Also, celebrity isn't exactly something you choose. He isn't "going back to" being a celebrity. He is still a celebrity. Just (allegedly) a celebrity who raped someone. Rolf Harris is still a celebrity. Gary Glitter is still a celebrity. ... Jack the Ripper is a celebrity, of sorts.

[MTVN]

Not meaning to play devil's advocate here but... is it really his fault that his chosen career (professional football) carries celebrity status? It's not like, say, Big Brother celebs who are seeking fame for the sake of fame... it just so happens that football has a lot of interest and so footballers are recognisable public figures. I'd say that most pro sportspeople set out to make a living from engaging in sport, rather than seeking fame / celebrity...

Also, celebrity isn't exactly something you choose. He isn't "going back to" being a celebrity. He is still a celebrity. Just (allegedly) a celebrity who raped someone. Rolf Harris is still a celebrity. Gary Glitter is still a celebrity. ... Jack the Ripper is a celebrity, of sorts.

Agree. People have said he shouldn't play again because he doesn't deserve to be watched by thousands of people every week, be featured on MOTD (not that he would as a L1 player at best but anyway) or have his face in the papers yet all those things are only really indirect consequences of being good at his job, its not being a celebrity for the sake of being a celebrity. Those arguments also sort of imply that it wouldn't matter so much if he wasn't in the papers, if he wasn't on TV, which is effectively saying it'd be ok for him to return to football if he was bad at it - and thus not in the public eye so much - but not if he's good at it.

Also agree with the second point. It's still unclear whether Evans will play again but he has still been plastered across the papers every day and stories are constantly being run on what he's been up to since his release and the various reactions to his story. True he might fade into obscurity gradually if he was never to play but celebrity status isn't something that can immediately be flicked off like a switch.

[Kizzy]

Supposedly but this, then, assumes that innocent people don't go to prison which is unfortunately just completely false. There are undoubtedly plenty of innocent people in prison... no system is perfect, and our criminal justice system (whilst admittedly better than many other countries, even developed ones, *cough cough* South Africa *cough*) is a system that is FAR from perfect.


Well as the point of a trial is to consider the weight of evidence to suggest that people go to prison when there is none... especially in a rape case is strange.
His friend was acquitted so there must have been some evidence on Mr Evans to tie him to the rape tight enough to secure a conviction?

[Benjamin]

Not meaning to play devil's advocate here but... is it really his fault that his chosen career (professional football) carries celebrity status? It's not like, say, Big Brother celebs who are seeking fame for the sake of fame... it just so happens that football has a lot of interest and so footballers are recognisable public figures. I'd say that most pro sportspeople set out to make a living from engaging in sport, rather than seeking fame / celebrity...

Also, celebrity isn't exactly something you choose. He isn't "going back to" being a celebrity. He is still a celebrity. Just (allegedly) a celebrity who raped someone. Rolf Harris is still a celebrity. Gary Glitter is still a celebrity. ... Jack the Ripper is a celebrity, of sorts.

Yes but you don't see any of them still working in the main profession do you? I.e. As a TV presenter/musician etc

[bots]

A lot of people seem to have missed the point, by a long margin.

Firstly, it is not the guilty person that makes himself a celebrity, this is not under his personal control.

Secondly, someone who has served a prison sentence has done their time, and not acknowledging remorse is their human right of defense in not admitting to the crime in the first place. Perfectly acceptable human right.

Thirdly, the employer has the right to refuse employment on the grounds of the prospective employee having committed a criminal offense. The choice is theirs. If they choose to employ, then they accept the potential consequences.

Very simple really.

[Kizzy]

Not meaning to play devil's advocate here but... is it really his fault that his chosen career (professional football) carries celebrity status? It's not like, say, Big Brother celebs who are seeking fame for the sake of fame... it just so happens that football has a lot of interest and so footballers are recognisable public figures. I'd say that most pro sportspeople set out to make a living from engaging in sport, rather than seeking fame / celebrity...

Also, celebrity isn't exactly something you choose. He isn't "going back to" being a celebrity. He is still a celebrity. Just (allegedly) a celebrity who raped someone. Rolf Harris is still a celebrity. Gary Glitter is still a celebrity. ... Jack the Ripper is a celebrity, of sorts.

Jack the ripper is infamous rather than famous and that's specifically for being a criminal.
You only hold celebrity status whilst you are celebrated, once you are defamed as glitter/harris I don't feel they are a 'celebrity' in the real sense of the word merely an ex singer and presenter imo.

[Kizzy]

A lot of people seem to have missed the point, by a long margin.

Firstly, it is not the guilty person that makes himself a celebrity, this is not under his personal control.

Secondly, someone who has served a prison sentence has done their time, and not acknowledging remorse is their human right of defense in not admitting to the crime in the first place. Perfectly acceptable human right.

Thirdly, the employer has the right to refuse employment on the grounds of the prospective employee having committed a criminal offense. The choice is theirs. If they choose to employ, then they accept the potential consequences.

Very simple really.

'It’s against the law to refuse someone a job because they’ve got a spent conviction or caution, unless it’s because a DBS check shows that they’re unsuitable.'

https://www.gov.uk/exoffenders-and-employment

[MTVN]

'It’s against the law to refuse someone a job because they’ve got a spent conviction or caution, unless it’s because a DBS check shows that they’re unsuitable.'

https://www.gov.uk/exoffenders-and-employment

If I understand that correctly they're only unable to turn down an ex con "if the conviction or caution is ‘spent’". It then only says a conviction will be 'spent' if the sentence was for 4 years or less, any more than that and it never will be. Evans' sentence was for 5 years so his conviction won't be 'spent' and employers would be free to turn him down for having a criminal record

Of course it wouldn't matter either way anyway considering Evans is currently a free agent so no team is obliged to take him on criminal record or not.

[bots]

'It’s against the law to refuse someone a job because they’ve got a spent conviction or caution, unless it’s because a DBS check shows that they’re unsuitable.'

https://www.gov.uk/exoffenders-and-employment

It very much depends on the job, and the context of the offense, the employer always has the right of refusal, no matter the letter of the law

[the truth]

what about anyone who commits a crime then eh? what about players who have gone to prison for gbh and came out to play football? endless sports men and women have committed violent crimes or taken drugs and return to play sport. the man is a pro footballer hes been tried in a court fo law, hes been to prison for 2 and a half years, done his time for his crime. now he should be allowed to return to his job playing football. a man cannot be tried twice for the same crime and the kangaroo court have no right to force him to pay twice for the same thing

[Kizzy]

It very much depends on the job, and the context of the offense, the employer always has the right of refusal, no matter the letter of the law

That's not true, you have the lwa on your side if an employer is using previous convictions as a reason to not employ you, that was the whole reason for legislation wasn't it?

[Kizzy]

If I understand that correctly they're only unable to turn down an ex con "if the conviction or caution is ‘spent’". It then only says a conviction will be 'spent' if the sentence was for 4 years or less, any more than that and it never will be. Evans' sentence was for 5 years so his conviction won't be 'spent' and employers would be free to turn him down for having a criminal record

Of course it wouldn't matter either way anyway considering Evans is currently a free agent so no team is obliged to take him on criminal record or not.

They can refuse if the probationary following release is not 'spent', it won't ever be spent as you say as his sentence was over 4yrs.
It will be at the clubs discretion as he will pose no threat in what he does, other than be a rather odd specimen of what we expect representatives of sport to be.
But they paid 3 million for him so money will be the focus over any moral or ethical debate no doubt.

[the truth]

They can refuse if the probationary following release is not 'spent', it won't ever be spent as you say as his sentence was over 4yrs.
It will be at the clubs discretion as he will pose no threat in what he does, other than be a rather odd specimen of what we expect representatives of sport to be.
But they paid 3 million for him so money will be the focus over any moral or ethical debate no doubt.

any club can sign him or not sign him. hes not contracted yet , at least I don't think he is , so its not an issues. if they do sign him then use this as a reason to break the contract then id expect that club to be in trouble

[Crimson Dynamo]

Jess Ennis wades into this debate and it may be the clincher

"Jessica Ennis-Hill wants her name to be removed from a stand named after her by Sheffield United if the club offers convicted rapist Ched Evans a contract.

United, who play at Bramall Lane, are to allow Evans, 25, to train with them.

But United manager Nigel Clough said it had "nowhere near been decided" whether or not to re-sign Evans.

"Those in positions of influence should respect the role they play in young people's lives and set a good example," said Olympic champion Ennis-Hill.

"If Evans was to be re-signed by the club it would completely contradict these beliefs."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30046618


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/20/article-0-1420E7ED000005DC-503_634x701.jpg

[Locke.]

Good news for the fans considering they didn't want the stand named after her anyway

[Livia]

Jessica Enis is an athlete. Athletes have been allowed in the past to continue their careers despite being exposed as cheats after taking drugs. That's not a great example to young people, is it. So I find her wading in to this situation a little disingenuous.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Jessica Enis is an athlete. Athletes have been allowed in the past to continue their careers despite being exposed as cheats after taking drugs. That's not a great example to young people, is it. So I find her wading in to this situation a little disingenuous.

I would imagine her PR team had a say in this perhaps. It could be damage limitation?

[Brother Leon]

Good news for the fans considering they didn't want the stand named after her anyway

This :joker:

[Nedusa]

This is a tough one to call , morally he should never be employed at that level reaping the huge financial rewards and celebrity status that comes with the territory, but legally he has paid his dues and since he didn't commit a football related crime there is no reason not to allow him to work as he can only earn a living playing football.

I think the club will face enormous pressure not to renew his contract do I think they are only letting him train to get him match fit so they can sell him and make some money out of their investment.

I think he go abroad for a few years until the fuss has died down and then maybe return depending on his form and ability.

However, he contests the rape conviction and there are plans to appeal with certain legal sources saying he has new evidence which may make his conviction unsafe.

Should this happen then I suggest he is going nowhere.



.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/11/13/349692/default/v1/mirror-1-720x960.jpg


http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/11/13/349646/default/v1/ennis-evans-compo-1-762x428.jpg

http://news.sky.com/story/1372861/jessica-ennis-hill-warning-over-ched-evans


To Ad to what LT posted the page before

[joeysteele]

This is a tough one to call , morally he should never be employed at that level reaping the huge financial rewards and celebrity status that comes with the territory, but legally he has paid his dues and since he didn't commit a football related crime there is no reason not to allow him to work as he can only earn a living playing football.

I think the club will face enormous pressure not to renew his contract do I think they are only letting him train to get him match fit so they can sell him and make some money out of their investment.

I think he go abroad for a few years until the fuss has died down and then maybe return depending on his form and ability.

However, he contests the rape conviction and there are plans to appeal with certain legal sources saying he has new evidence which may make his conviction unsafe.


Should this happen then I suggest he is going nowhere.



.


Yes, also should the new evidence actually cast doubt on the conviction or clear him completely then the club will need to be careful of what they do before the result of such appeal is known.

Definitely a wait and see situation wich may yet completely turn the tide in his favour and if it is the case that new evidence does that, then rightly so too.

[Northern Monkey]

That's it,He may turn out to be innocent after his appeal,In which case he will be rightfully entitled to compo and his position at the club.

[arista]

The PM has backed what J.Ennis
has said.

[Kizzy]

Good about time someone put personal ethics before money :)

[Kizzy]

Paul Heaton
6 hrs ·
'It is with great regret that I announce my resignation as patron of Sheffield United Community Foundation.
I would firstly like to salute the bravery of my fellow Blades and patrons in resigning their positions and in particular Charlie Webster, Jessica Ennis-Hill and Lindsay Graham, in standing up for victims of rape everywhere.
I firmly believe that Ched Evans has the right to rebuild his career in football but rebuilding a career should not involve walking straight out of prison and into the shirt of the club he so badly let down.
I believe he needs to move away and move on, and the club itself needs to lift its reputation out of the gutter.
As a way of showing a lead to others involved in this torrid affair, I will be donating my fee from this month's Sheffield City Hall gig to Sheffield Rape Crisis Centre.
Finally, I would like to thank the Foundation for its continued hard work in the Sheffield community and wish them the very best for the future.'

Well said paul! 4th patron to resign.

[arista]

Yes so many do not want this Rapist
there

[Livia]

So what this says, in effect is... if you commit a crime, don't imagine that once you've served your sentence you can be rehabilitated back into society. Some high-profile people may use their fame to metaphorically hold their breath until they make sure your sentences continues for the rest of your life, contrary to the law of the land.

Looking forward to Jessica Ennis being a little more vocal about the drug-taking and cheating within her own discipline. But not holding my breath.

[Nedusa]

I agree , it amazes me how minor public figures who are losely connected with Sheffield Utd F.C are now all taking a holier-than-thou attitude.

The Man is a convicted rapist (although he is fighting for a re-trial) and has served time in prison, but now let's highlight his crime and climb on the publicity bandwagon and crow smugly about how we want nothing to do with this man and will take whatever action to sever all connections to this evil sexual monster.

I just think people should shut up, this man will have to carry his sins around for ever and he doesn't need his sentence to be continued publicly out of prison.





.

[Niamh.]

So what this says, in effect is... if you commit a crime, don't imagine that once you've served your sentence you can be rehabilitated back into society. Some high-profile people may use their fame to metaphorically hold their breath until they make sure your sentences continues for the rest of your life, contrary to the law of the land.

Looking forward to Jessica Ennis being a little more vocal about the drug-taking and cheating within her own discipline. But not holding my breath.

There's a massive difference between cheating/drug taking and being a rapist imo

I have no sympathy what so ever for a convicted rapist

[Livia]

There's a massive difference between cheating/drug taking and being a rapist imo

I have no sympathy what so ever for a convicted rapist

I don't have much sympathy for rapists myself. However, sympathy notwithstanding, the fact remains that he's served his sentence and it should not be up to high profile people to use their standing in the media to make demands of the law.

[Niamh.]

I don't have much sympathy for rapists myself. However, sympathy notwithstanding, the fact remains that he's served his sentence and it should not be up to high profile people to use their standing in the media to make demands of the law.

High profile people should be allowed to decide what they do and don't want their names used for though. I say good on her

[Crimson Dynamo]

There's a massive difference between cheating/drug taking and being a rapist imo

I have no sympathy what so ever for a convicted rapist

and there is a massive difference in shagging some pissed up bird who decides that she did not want to have the sex she did have after she has sobered up and aggressive predatory violent rape

[Niamh.]

and there is a massive difference in shagging some pissed up bird who decides that she did not want to have the sex she did have after she has sobered up and aggressive predatory violent rape

If you believe Ched Evans version of events yeah, I agree with the Jury though that Ched Evan is a disgusting predator and was guilty.

[Livia]

If you believe Ched Evans version of events yeah, I agree with the Jury though that Ched Evan is a disgusting predator and was guilty.

..and consequently served his sentence.

[Niamh.]

..and consequently served his sentence.

yes and a consequence of him being a convicted rapist is that high profile people don't want their name associated with a team he plays for :shrug:

[Northern Monkey]

I'm thinking,For Sheffield UTD to be putting themselves through all this negative publicity.Maybe they know something about the new evidence for his appeal and believe there is a strong chance his charges will be thrown out.Why else would they be letting him train with them and taking all this flack.Maybe his lawyers are quietly confident for his appeal.

[Kizzy]

Nope... they paid for him and they want their moneys worth is all, guilt or innocence play no part only money.

[GypsyGoth]

I really don't think there should be anything to stop him legally from working as a footballer again. Since as far as I know he was only sentenced to prison time.

The fact that his old football club are thinking of employing him again. That's up to them and their conscience. But for sure he should be allowed to take that job if offered.

[Crimson Dynamo]

People resent footy players because they get paid too much and are usually thick and common.

To avoid saying this try saying: but he is a role model for kids


Now it sounds better and we can hate on him with impunity

[MTVN]

Nope... they paid for him and they want their moneys worth is all, guilt or innocence play no part only money.

Well no because his contract ended in 2012 soon after his conviction, they've paid him nothing since then and owe him nothing now

They only let him train with them following a request from the PFA

[MTVN]

I think Paul Heaton's view is completely understandable, he strongly believes Evans has a right to play again but doesn't think that Sheffield United should take him back considering they were the club and the people most immediately let down by his actions. There is this distinction here between not playing at all and not playing for Sheffield United, the latter doesn't rule out the former.

[Kizzy]

Well no because his contract ended in 2012 soon after his conviction, they've paid him nothing since then and owe him nothing now

They only let him train with them following a request from the PFA

Then if they have no vested interest why on earth are they ruining the reputation of the club by having him there?... It makes no sense.

[Kyle]

I think Paul Heaton's view is completely understandable, he strongly believes Evans has a right to play again but doesn't think that Sheffield United should take him back considering they were the club and the people most immediately let down by his actions. There is this distinction here between not playing at all and not playing for Sheffield United, the latter doesn't rule out the former.


Yep, him going down pretty much cost them promotion back up to the championship. He was banging them in for the blunts and then he goes down, we sign Michail Antonio and then take their place in the second automatic spot establishing ourselves once again as Sheffield's dominant club.

Taking personal feelings aside (I despise rapists) that lad cost them big time.

[arista]

Sheffield United have said
convicted rapist Ched Evans
will not be returning to train
at the club following public outcry over the decision.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2843092/Sheffield-United-retracts-decision-allow-rapist-footballer-Ched-Evans-train-club-public-outcry-decision.html#ixzz3JeKXawKO

http://news.sky.com/story/1377321/sheffield-utd-u-turn-over-ched-evans-training

[Kizzy]

Good.

[MTVN]

Embarrassing u-turn, Sheffield United have made a complete hash of the whole case

[arista]

Good.


yes makes sense

[MTVN]

Convicted rapist Ched Evans has been offered an unexpected route back into football by Maltese team Hibernians.

The Maltese Premier League club revealed last night that they had made an offer for Evans to play for the side for the next six months.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2895009/Convicted-rapist-Ched-Evans-offered-six-month-contract-Maltese-Hibernians.html#ixzz3NlOTOq1Z
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

ffs at this quote from them: "Our vice-president has offered the contract until the end of the season to this glorious player to come over to Malta and play for our top team. We are leading the table at the moment" :joker:

I'm pretty sure they are just trolling people with it really

[Kizzy]

Meanwhile the victim has had to move 5 times and couldn't spend Christmas with her family.

[Northern Monkey]

Well,He'll be moving abroad so away from his 'victim'.Probably the best move he could make tbh.Those like Jessica Ennis who were against him going back to Sheffield will also be pleased that he's moving abroad.

[arista]

Well,He'll be moving abroad so away from his 'victim'.Probably the best move he could make tbh.Those like Jessica Ennis who were against him going back to Sheffield will also be pleased that he's moving abroad.


Possible he may play for Malta
but UK has Blocked that.

[Locke.]

Convicted rapist Ched Evans is in talks about signing with an unnamed League One club, according to Gordon Taylor, the chief executive of the Professional Footballers' Association.

Taylor revealed the news on BBC Radio 5 live's Sportsweek, and says the club will hold a news conference on Monday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30671692

Here we go.

[Niall]

I can see that this is already a 7 page thread but I'm gonna throw my two pennies worth just because this interests me.

I don't think he should be allowed back on a pro football team considering this really. When you think of the fame and the money he'll receive and the support he'll get from people for getting back into football it just.. it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's like the tacit assent from a large institution and vast swathe of people that this is their view on rape: so long as you spend a couple years in prison after forcing yourself on someone and traumatising them for life, we'll still love and adore you afterwards don't worry.

I just don't think he should be allowed that kind of privilege, fame and fortune after committing such a morally depraved act. Yes that might send a message about convicts in general but this is a crime that's particularly traumatising, and especially rife within society with violence against women being something at epidemic levels throughout the western world. Think of how the victim would feel if he becomes a pro footballer again, earning stupid amounts of money? It'll look like nothing more than society giving him a low-key thumbs up despite how he's ruined her life. It's not right, but then I suppose that's rape culture at work. Defend the rapist at the expense of the victim. :shrug:

[MTVN]

Convicted rapist Ched Evans is in talks about signing with an unnamed League One club, according to Gordon Taylor, the chief executive of the Professional Footballers' Association.

Taylor revealed the news on BBC Radio 5 live's Sportsweek, and says the club will hold a news conference on Monday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30671692

Here we go.

Oldham apparently, pretty lucky if so landing at a team barely a step down from the Blades

[MTVN]

Oldham were also the first team to sign Lee Hughes after his death by dangerous driving conviction

Edit - mind you the Star are saying its Port Vale, think most of the tabloids are just guessing really

[Tom4784]

I can see that this is already a 7 page thread but I'm gonna throw my two pennies worth just because this interests me.

I don't think he should be allowed back on a pro football team considering this really. When you think of the fame and the money he'll receive and the support he'll get from people for getting back into football it just.. it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's like the tacit assent from a large institution and vast swathe of people that this is their view on rape: so long as you spend a couple years in prison after forcing yourself on someone and traumatising them for life, we'll still love and adore you afterwards don't worry.

I just don't think he should be allowed that kind of privilege, fame and fortune after committing such a morally depraved act. Yes that might send a message about convicts in general but this is a crime that's particularly traumatising, and especially rife within society with violence against women being something at epidemic levels throughout the western world. Think of how the victims would feel if he becomes a pro footballer again, earning stupid amounts of money? It'll look like nothing more than society giving him a low-key thumbs up despite how he's ruined her life. It's not right, but then I suppose that's rape culture at work. Defend the rapist at the expense of the victim. :shrug:

To play the Devil's Advocate though, if someone's served their sentence do they not have the right to carry on with their lives? If not then what's the point of sentencing someone in the first place? It shouldn't really matter whether someone is famous or not since, in the eyes of the law everyone should be equal when it comes to crime and punishment.

I'm still pretty conflicted about it tbh. It's a very difficult topic.

[Nedusa]

Oldham were also the first team to sign Lee Hughes after his death by dangerous driving conviction

Edit - mind you the Star are saying its Port Vale, think most of the tabloids are just guessing really

Maybe Oldham have calculated they can withstand the inevitable press uproar and still obtain a premiership quality player for a knock down price.

Business always trumps morality.... It seems




.

[MTVN]

Maybe Oldham have calculated they can withstand the inevitable press uproar and still obtain a premiership quality player for a knock down price.

Business always trumps morality.... It seems




.

He's not Premier league quality though, he was having a great season in league 1 at the time of his arrest but hes been out of football nearly 3 years now and will have lost a lot of fitness

Lot of the fans on their forum already saying they won't be attending matches while hes there if they sign him

[Z]

To play the Devil's Advocate though, if someone's served their sentence do they not have the right to carry on with their lives? If not then what's the point of sentencing someone in the first place? It shouldn't really matter whether someone is famous or not since, in the eyes of the law everyone should be equal when it comes to crime and punishment.

I'm still pretty conflicted about it tbh. It's a very difficult topic.

Plus, what Niall's saying is only really valid if we're to believe that Evans really did rape the victim. Everything about the trial is so shaky that I don't believe he even committed a crime; why is it that the first guy who had sex with the girl wasn't convicted of rape but Evans was? Why would you willingly go to a hotel room with a bunch of footballers if you weren't keen to have sex with a bunch of footballers? I think there are certain types of women who go after footballers because they expect to be the next Mrs Beckham, Rooney, Cole; and this young lady took it too far.

Either way, we'll never know for sure what happened but Evans maintains his innocence and has never said sorry and I think that speaks volumes about what really happened that night. You're not going to say sorry if you've got nothing to be sorry for. Let the man play football. The girl still has her anonymity as far as the masses are concerned, she can go on to lead a normal life - he'll forever be deemed a rapist in the minds of many people regardless of whether he did it or not and I think that's punishment enough.

[Kizzy]

Plus, what Niall's saying is only really valid if we're to believe that Evans really did rape the victim. Everything about the trial is so shaky that I don't believe he even committed a crime; why is it that the first guy who had sex with the girl wasn't convicted of rape but Evans was? Why would you willingly go to a hotel room with a bunch of footballers if you weren't keen to have sex with a bunch of footballers? I think there are certain types of women who go after footballers because they expect to be the next Mrs Beckham, Rooney, Cole; and this young lady took it too far.

Either way, we'll never know for sure what happened but Evans maintains his innocence and has never said sorry and I think that speaks volumes about what really happened that night. You're not going to say sorry if you've got nothing to be sorry for. Let the man play football. The girl still has her anonymity as far as the masses are concerned, she can go on to lead a normal life - he'll forever be deemed a rapist in the minds of many people regardless of whether he did it or not and I think that's punishment enough.

Maybe she consented to sex with A footballer but not footballers?
The court had enough evidence to convict, the fact he hasn't said sorry isn't any guarantee, prisons are full of people protesting their innocence.
She isn't leading a normal life, mainly due to the opinion that she's a money grabbing *****.

If I walked down the street blindfold with £200 sticking out of my back pocket and someone took it would it still be theft, or not because it was on show and I was oblivious?

[Z]

I'd have thought like with most rape cases all they have for evidence is the words of the parties involved and whether they stack up against the alleged timeline of events; what else could there be? I think the word rape is a really loaded term - personally I don't consider a scenario like the Ched Evans one to be in the same ballpark as a guy stalking a woman down an alleyway and brutally violating her - do you? I think there ought to be a distinction made, there are surely degrees of rape in the same way there are degrees of murder. Somebody who plans to kill someone and somebody who accidentally kills someone both still have blood on their hands but it seems wrong to bunch them both together as "murderers" - I guess that's why I have an issue with this case and think he should be allowed to return to football. If he did do it, it certainly wasn't a violent violation of this woman.

[Kizzy]

I'd have thought like with most rape cases all they have for evidence is the words of the parties involved and whether they stack up against the alleged timeline of events; what else could there be? I think the word rape is a really loaded term - personally I don't consider a scenario like the Ched Evans one to be in the same ballpark as a guy stalking a woman down an alleyway and brutally violating her - do you? I think there ought to be a distinction made, there are surely degrees of rape in the same way there are degrees of murder. Somebody who plans to kill someone and somebody who accidentally kills someone both still have blood on their hands but it seems wrong to bunch them both together as "murderers" - I guess that's why I have an issue with this case and think he should be allowed to return to football. If he did do it, it certainly wasn't a violent violation of this woman.

I do yes because you can't 'accidently' rape someone can you?

All rape is violent as it's an assault, she may have consented to sex with the other guy which is why he was not convicted of rape.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'd have thought like with most rape cases all they have for evidence is the words of the parties involved and whether they stack up against the alleged timeline of events; what else could there be? I think the word rape is a really loaded term - personally I don't consider a scenario like the Ched Evans one to be in the same ballpark as a guy stalking a woman down an alleyway and brutally violating her - do you? I think there ought to be a distinction made, there are surely degrees of rape in the same way there are degrees of murder. Somebody who plans to kill someone and somebody who accidentally kills someone both still have blood on their hands but it seems wrong to bunch them both together as "murderers" - I guess that's why I have an issue with this case and think he should be allowed to return to football. If he did do it, it certainly wasn't a violent violation of this woman.

She was mortal drunk according to the reports so its not even close really

[Z]

I do yes because you can't 'accidently' rape someone can you?

All rape is violent as it's an assault, she may have consented to sex with the other guy which is why he was not convicted of rape.

You can have sex with someone and they can then turn around and say you raped them afterwards, so I'd argue you can "accidentally" rape someone. Not all rape is violent because there's a gulf of difference between being battered, tortured even, and sexually violated and being drunk in a hotel room with a group of football players and having sex with one of them while there are other people in the room and then suddenly getting cold feet about it when a second one starts to have sex with you. I just cannot take it seriously, I don't care if people think I'm horrible for "victim blaming", she's not a rape victim in my opinion. She's a victim of her own drunken stupidity.

She was mortal drunk according to the reports so its not even close really

Yep.

[Ninastar]

You can have sex with someone and they can then turn around and say you raped them afterwards, so I'd argue you can "accidentally" rape someone. Not all rape is violent because there's a gulf of difference between being battered, tortured even, and sexually violated and being drunk in a hotel room with a group of football players and having sex with one of them while there are other people in the room and then suddenly getting cold feet about it when a second one starts to have sex with you. I just cannot take it seriously, I don't care if people think I'm horrible for "victim blaming", she's not a rape victim in my opinion. She's a victim of her own drunken stupidity.


totally agree.

[Niall]

To play the Devil's Advocate though, if someone's served their sentence do they not have the right to carry on with their lives? If not then what's the point of sentencing someone in the first place? It shouldn't really matter whether someone is famous or not since, in the eyes of the law everyone should be equal when it comes to crime and punishment.

I'm still pretty conflicted about it tbh. It's a very difficult topic.

I know, but you have to think of the implications of what it all means. If football clubs are willing to sign a ex-con who's committed a sexual offence as depraved as rape with nary a care in sight then it just says that their attitude is something along the lines of this, "Aw well he's spent his time in the corner I mean he did only rape that woman once, so who cares about what it says to our female fanbase and women in general if we hire him!" Like, it just seems iffy.

And I know everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law, but seeing as this is a high profile case with implications being played out across a highly publicised field (excuse the pun), then it kind of sets the tone for everything else. Letting him carry on in such a cushy job with no-one in else in that career really reacting to him forcing such a traumatic act on another human being is just.. no. It's not right. Moreover I'm not sure how he can have the gall to want to show his face in public after doing something of that calibre.

Plus, what Niall's saying is only really valid if we're to believe that Evans really did rape the victim. Everything about the trial is so shaky that I don't believe he even committed a crime; why is it that the first guy who had sex with the girl wasn't convicted of rape but Evans was? Why would you willingly go to a hotel room with a bunch of footballers if you weren't keen to have sex with a bunch of footballers? I think there are certain types of women who go after footballers because they expect to be the next Mrs Beckham, Rooney, Cole; and this young lady took it too far.

Either way, we'll never know for sure what happened but Evans maintains his innocence and has never said sorry and I think that speaks volumes about what really happened that night. You're not going to say sorry if you've got nothing to be sorry for. Let the man play football. The girl still has her anonymity as far as the masses are concerned, she can go on to lead a normal life - he'll forever be deemed a rapist in the minds of many people regardless of whether he did it or not and I think that's punishment enough.

You can have sex with someone and they can then turn around and say you raped them afterwards, so I'd argue you can "accidentally" rape someone. Not all rape is violent because there's a gulf of difference between being battered, tortured even, and sexually violated and being drunk in a hotel room with a group of football players and having sex with one of them while there are other people in the room and then suddenly getting cold feet about it when a second one starts to have sex with you. I just cannot take it seriously, I don't care if people think I'm horrible for "victim blaming", she's not a rape victim in my opinion. She's a victim of her own drunken stupidity.

Rape is simple: if there is an absence of consent, then it's rape. If someone is inebriated they cannot consent because they aren't in a clear and lucid state of mind. Therefore, it is rape. That's taking advantage of someone sexually. You cannot argue against that. It is not 'drunken stupidity', it's someone preying on someone else who's in a vulnerable state. Consent is a constant and enthusiastic 'Yes!' and nothing else.

The entirety of what you've said highlights the problem here, and it's that people often think that the victim 'had it coming' because they shouldn't have gone somewhere with the assailant, and quite frankly it's the most stupid argument in the book. Let's apply that logic somewhere else: would you say that if someone walking home from the train station at 10pm is at fault if they're mugged? It's ridiculous. She shouldn't have to go somewhere with the expectation that she might have to give herself up sexually. And even if she did lead them to think that that's what might happen, any normal human being knows the line in terms of consent. Like I'm pretty sure if someone was drunk etc, or even gave the slightest hint of uncomfortableness when it comes to all this stuff most sane people would know to back the **** off. Whereas if you don't and you force yourself upon, or take advantage of someone, then that's a rather terrifying thing for someone to do, no?

To reiterate: victim blaming is absolutely the problem at hand. The misogynistic view that "She shouldn't have done this...", or "She shouldn't have done that...", or "Her skirt was too short..", is just an argument both terrifyingly disgusting as it is paper thin.

[Kizzy]

You can have sex with someone and they can then turn around and say you raped them afterwards, so I'd argue you can "accidentally" rape someone. Not all rape is violent because there's a gulf of difference between being battered, tortured even, and sexually violated and being drunk in a hotel room with a group of football players and having sex with one of them while there are other people in the room and then suddenly getting cold feet about it when a second one starts to have sex with you. I just cannot take it seriously, I don't care if people think I'm horrible for "victim blaming", she's not a rape victim in my opinion. She's a victim of her own drunken stupidity.



Yep.


A man cannot accidentally rape a woman was the point based on your murder analogy, murder may be subject to degrees but sex without consent is always rape... there are no good rapes.
Rape is as a rule defined as a sexual violation.
I have to say I do find your opinion distasteful on this subject, no matter how drunk and suggestible she was not obliged to have sex with anyone in that room.

[Kizzy]

I know, but you have to think of the implications of what it all means. If football clubs are willing to sign a ex-con who's committed a sexual offence as depraved as rape with nary a care in sight then it just says that their attitude is something along the lines of this, "Aw well he's spent his time in the corner I mean he did only rape that woman once, so who cares about what it says to our female fanbase and women in general if we hire him!" Like, it just seems iffy.

And I know everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law, but seeing as this is a high profile case with implications being played out across a highly publicised field (excuse the pun), then it kind of sets the tone for everything else. Letting him carry on in such a cushy job with no-one in else in that career really reacting to him forcing such a traumatic act on another human being is just.. no. It's not right. Moreover I'm not sure how he can have the gall to want to show his face in public after doing something of that calibre.





Rape is simple: if there is an absence of consent, then it's rape. If someone is inebriated they cannot consent because they aren't in a clear and lucid state of mind. Therefore, it is rape. That's taking advantage of someone sexually. You cannot argue against that. It is not 'drunken stupidity', it's someone preying on someone else who's in a vulnerable state. Consent is a constant and enthusiastic 'Yes!' and nothing else.

The entirety of what you've said highlights the problem here, and it's that people often think that the victim 'had it coming' because they shouldn't have gone somewhere with the assailant, and quite frankly it's the most stupid argument in the book. Let's apply that logic somewhere else: would you say that if someone walking home from the train station at 10pm is at fault if they're mugged? It's ridiculous. She shouldn't have to go somewhere with the expectation that she might have to give herself up sexually. And even if she did lead them to think that that's what might happen, any normal human being knows the line in terms of consent. Like I'm pretty sure if someone was drunk etc, or even gave the slightest hint of uncomfortableness when it comes to all this stuff most sane people would know to back the **** off. Whereas if you don't and you force yourself upon, or take advantage of someone, then that's a rather terrifying thing for someone to do, no?

To reiterate: victim blaming is absolutely the problem at hand. The misogynistic view that "She shouldn't have done this...", or "She shouldn't have done that...", or "Her skirt was too short..", is just an argument both terrifyingly disgusting as it is paper thin.

:clap1:

[Livia]

Don't get drunk. Take care of your own safety... then you don't have to feel bad and change your mind in the morning when it all swims into terrible clarity.

[Niall]

Don't get drunk. Take care of your own safety... then you don't have to feel bad and change your mind in the morning when it all swims into terrible clarity.

Or better yet, don't prey on people when they're not able to take care of their own safety. A far more compassionate and sane argument.

[Kizzy]

Or better yet, don't prey on people when they're not able to take care of their own safety. A far more compassionate and sane argument.

Or to clarify... don't rape anyone.

[Livia]

Or better yet, don't prey on people when they're not able to take care of their own safety. A far more compassionate and sane argument.

My argument is sane. Don't get so pissed you can't take care of yourself.

I am totally sympathetic to women who are raped. It's an appalling crime. But sometimes women do make false allegations, sometimes a small fraction of women who report a rape lie, sometimes they can't remember and sometimes they have regrets when they sober up. And sympathy fades when you hear she'd already tried to press charges against some rugby players for the same thing previously.

So... while I'm sympathetic to women (and men for that matter) who are subjected to rape, you do have to take care of your own safety and not put yourself in harms way. I am also sympathetic also to people who get knocked down by cars. But if they're walking up the motorway pissed... not so much.

[Kizzy]

That's a really odd analogy, if you are drunk on the road you are not deliberately targeted by drivers are you?... You would have to take liability but it would still be an accident.
Nobody is raped by accident.
People do get drunk all the time, it's their choice, just as it's a choice to decide if your partner is consenting or not.... if that is a gray area don't have sex with them.

[Livia]

That's a really odd analogy, if you are drunk on the road you are not deliberately targeted by drivers are you?... You would have to take liability but it would still be an accident.
Nobody is raped by accident.
People do get drunk all the time, it's their choice, just as it's a choice to decide if your partner is consenting or not.... if that is a gray area don't have sex with them.

What if the person who rapes is drunk? Or under the influence of some kind of drug? Is it okay for women to be irresponsible and out of control, but not men? It's okay for women to be drunk enough to be taken advantage of, but men must be exemplary and sober enough always to make the right decision? When people drink their judgement is impaired - both men and women.

And it's a good analogy. It's about deliberately putting yourself in harms way by getting so drunk you can't make good decisions.

[Kizzy]

What if the person who rapes is drunk? Or under the influence of some kind of drug? Is it okay for women to be irresponsible and out of control, but not men? It's okay for women to be drunk enough to be taken advantage of, but men must be exemplary and sober enough always to make the right decision? When people drink their judgement is impaired - both men and women.

And it's a good analogy. It's about deliberately putting yourself in harms way by getting so drunk you can't make good decisions.

I'm sorry but you know in law if your penis works you can't be classed as 'out of control'
Unless you pass out and your penis goes looking for a vagina you know what you're doing.

[Nedusa]

I do yes because you can't 'accidently' rape someone can you?

All rape is violent as it's an assault, she may have consented to sex with the other guy which is why he was not convicted of rape.

I agree with you, however it's a pretty dangerous game to play by enticing two strangers into a hotel room stripping naked with both of them and after having sex with the first one in front of the second guy, then telling the second one she is not interested.




.

[Kizzy]

I agree with you, however it's a pretty dangerous game to play by enticing two strangers into a hotel room stripping naked with both of them and after having sex with the first one in front of the second guy, then telling the second one she is not interested.




.

Let's flip that, it was their room... they 'enticed' her there.

She has the right to say no to one or either of them she was not contractually bound to have sex with them that evening remember, let's not get this twisted.

[the truth]

My argument is sane. Don't get so pissed you can't take care of yourself.

I am totally sympathetic to women who are raped. It's an appalling crime. But sometimes women do make false allegations, sometimes a small fraction of women who report a rape lie, sometimes they can't remember and sometimes they have regrets when they sober up. And sympathy fades when you hear she'd already tried to press charges against some rugby players for the same thing previously.

So... while I'm sympathetic to women (and men for that matter) who are subjected to rape, you do have to take care of your own safety and not put yourself in harms way. I am also sympathetic also to people who get knocked down by cars. But if they're walking up the motorway pissed... not so much.

100% correct. dont lie about it, dont get so drunk you dont even know what youre doing.....even after the event some people are so drunk they cant even remember what happened let alone if they had sex with consent. personal responsibility is key as is telling the truth. anyone who makes totally falsified accusations simply must go to prison. The damage these lies do is immeasurable. of course we all want bad people and criminals punished. but in addition to rapists , killers and violent criminals, perjury and false accusation is also a major criminal offence. Fortunately some false accusers have gone to prison but the radical man hating feminists wouldnt accept such punishment should happen.....


heres a tale for your perusal.....I wonder how many lives , how much tax payers money this false accuser wasted with all the lies

https://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/jailed-false-accuser-draws-feminist-support/


Jailed false accuser draws feminist support
Posted on June 27, 2014 by Toysoldier Rhiannon Brooker accused her former boyfriend of rape and assault. Her accusations against Paul Fensome landed the man in jail for 37 days. While imprisoned, someone claimed that he was a pedophile and he had to be placed in protective custody.

However, the evidence showed that Brooker’s accusations were false:

Alibis, evidence from Fensome’s phone and his work shift patterns undermined Brooker’s accounts. Injuries were judged to have been self-inflicted and the police dropped their investigations into Fensome and turned their attention on Brooker.

Brooker initially told police she had made false accusations. But when she was charged with perverting the course of justice she retracted her confession. She was found guilty of 12 offences relating to false allegations of five rapes, six assaults and one false imprisonment.

The judge sentenced Brooker to three and a half years, which prompted outrage from feminists:

The support and campaign group Women Against Rape (WAR) was among more than a dozen organisations and lawyers who wrote to the judge arguing that a harsh sentence would put women off coming forward to report rapes for fear they would not be believed.

They wrote: “The prosecution was not in the public interest. A prison sentence will put even more women off reporting, enabling even more attacks from violent men. The resources spent on prosecuting Ms Brooker should have been put into prosecuting rapists and other violent men

[Ammi]

..surely there is no question that he raped her...the same as someone is innocent until proven guilty, once proven guilty then that's what they are in the eyes of the law and there is no questioning of that..?...I mean, whether violent rape or not..rape is rape and a violation of another person and the courts must have been convinced of his guilt as the other guy was found innocent...it's more whether he should be allowed to play football professionally again and that really is up to whether a team are prepared for that to happen..?...

[Nedusa]

..surely there is no question that he raped her...the same as someone is innocent until proven guilty, once proven guilty then that's what they are in the eyes of the law and there is no questioning of that..?...I mean, whether violent rape or not..rape is rape and a violation of another person and the courts must have been convinced of his guilt as the other guy was found innocent...it's more whether he should be allowed to play football professionally again and that really is up to whether a team are prepared for that to happen..?...

Well if you look at the transcripts from the trial not everyone is convinced he is guilty of rape.

Courts, Judges and Juries are not infallibe and mistakes very occasionally do happen.

So maybe Mr Evans and his family and legal team do think his conviction is unsafe and that certain evidence was not made available to the court or the jury.

Maybe that is why he cannot admit guilt.. Maybe there is more to this story than just the question of whether a convicted rapist should play football again.




.

[Locke.]

Oldham currently having a board meeting to decide whether to go through with the signing after 20k people signed a petition against it

[Nedusa]

My guess is they will not sign him.





.

[arista]

My guess is they will not sign him.





.



Correct
He is Toxic

[Livia]

I'm sorry but you know in law if your penis works you can't be classed as 'out of control'
Unless you pass out and your penis goes looking for a vagina you know what you're doing.

LOL... This is almost Zen level wrong.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Oldham currently having a board meeting to decide whether to go through with the signing after 20k people signed a petition against it

meh - I could get a bigger petition to get Cadbury's to start selling chocolate coins again



However now a sponsor is threatening to leave and that talks the talk

[the truth]

I hope he is allowed to resume his career of work. This campaign is mental. The feminazis now want to ensure all MEN who commit a crime are banned from work? If we apply this mental state of affairs then all ex prisoners must never be allowed to work again? wow. how much will that help the economy and the country?

[Gusto Brunt]

No. :mad:

If he wants a job, let him being a road sweeper.

[lostalex]

imho anyone capable of rape is also capable of other violent crimes. Mike Tyson returned to boxing after his rape conviction right? and then he started eating people on live TV... just saying...

[Niamh.]

imho anyone capable of rape is also capable of other violent crimes. Mike Tyson returned to boxing after his rape conviction right? and then he started eating people on live TV... just saying...

:laugh:

[Northern Monkey]

Well i hope if he is found innocent in his appeal that this bitch is locked up atleast as long as he was.

[Crimson Dynamo]

He could sign for Rape Rovers in Scotland

[arista]

Well i hope if he is found innocent in his appeal that this bitch is locked up atleast as long as he was.


And if he is Not

Feck Off to Malta

[MTVN]

Reading a good article from the Sunday Times (its a subscription site but the article is posted here: http://members.boardhost.com/lutonoutlaws/msg/1420398131.html) detailing fully what happened that night (admittedly from a sympathetic to Evans view point) this point is raised:

One club chairman who wanted to sign Evans but backed away because of pressure from sponsors asks a question that is central to the case: “Is there a legal alcohol limit at which a ‘drunken consent’ becomes a ‘too drunk to consent’, therefore you must ignore the consent? Or has a man got to make his own assessment of that, presumably whilst he’s also drunk. If the law is as ambiguous as that, then God help us all.”


Honestly I don't believe rape is black and white, I do think there are degrees of rape, and sometimes it is ambiguous particularly when both parties are drunk. The fact it can be unclear is almost self-evident considering that two men slept with the victim, she accused both of rape, one was found innocent and one was found guilty. Both the complainant, the court, and the two accused men thus saw the case differently; the victim thought both had committed rape, the court thought only one man was guilty of it, the two accused thought that neither of them were guilty. How is that black and white?

There is a big problem with sexual harassment in society no doubt and with people often not appreciating the line of consent. I've no doubt either that the whole ordeal has been a nightmare for the woman and that it's bad how some people have ignored her right to anonymity. But those issues should not be repeatedly used a stick to beat Evans with and to make an example of him. The witch hunt is getting out of control.

[Kizzy]

LOL... This is almost Zen level wrong.

Could you explain your reasoning then please livia?
If a man is capable of acheiving an erection whilst drunk can he truly be that 'out of control'? If so then why is this not used as defence in rape cases?
' It wasn't my fault I was drunk and out of control when I raped that woman' It just wouldn't wash.

'When he came to pass sentence the judge said: ".... [the complainant] was in no position to form a capacity to consent to sexual intercourse, and you, when you arrived, must have realised that."

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

[MTVN]

Oldham have made a real mess of this anyway, released this statement to basically say there will be no statement:

Oldham Athletic is not at this stage making any official announcement with regard to the speculation concerning Ched Evans.

Whilst acknowledging the considerable media attention, we continue to have conversations with representative bodies such as the PFA and will conduct due diligence with regard to any decision we make on this matter.

Although it has been reported that a press conference would be held we will officially advise if and when any such event will take place.

The club would also request that its stakeholders and partners position and privacy be respected until this matter has been concluded.

We will not be making any further comment for the time being.

http://www.oldhamathletic.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-ched-evans-2184275.aspx#1BPfCBYtr2b7Tp09.99

A lot of their fans speculating that they had signed him last week and are now desperately trying to get out of it after the backlash

[Nedusa]

I think the PFA and the FA need to step up and clarify matters from a playing perspective. Given the high profile and celebrity status the players in the top leagues attract, there should be a ruling that states any player convicted of any serious offense cannot continue to play football professionally.

This is harsh but crimes like rape, serious assault, murder, etc must make it untenable for players to pick up as before as nothing had really changed.

No I'm sorry but if you commit a crime of this gravity then your playing days in this country are over.

So if Ched Evans does not overturn his conviction then I think he should never play professional football in this country again.





.

[arista]

with Advertisers
saying they pull out
looks like he will not get the job , again

[Vicky.]

Don't see why not when murderers are allowed to compete in the olympics tbh

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=Nedusa;7448599]Well if you look at the transcripts from the trial not everyone is convinced he is guilty of rape.

Courts, Judges and Juries are not infallibe and mistakes very occasionally do happen.

So maybe Mr Evans and his family and legal team do think his conviction is unsafe and that certain evidence was not made available to the court or the jury.

Maybe that is why he cannot admit guilt.. Maybe there is more to this story than just the question of whether a convicted rapist should play football again.



I have to agree here.

He is convinced and states he didn't commit the crime, there is enough 'uncertainty' as to that to warrant it being looked into again.

So really, since he is still protesting the conviction, why on earth would he then admit to and say sorry for commitiing the crime.
That would not make sense and if the case once it is looked at again comes back saying he was wrongly convicted in the first place, then there is going to be a lot of egg on faces.

He could say he was sorry for any distress for this action but that he misread the signals or whatever.

I do agree with Kizzy that the lady has the right to choose who she does anything with but it does seem very odd and suspicious to me that she would willingly go into a room with one or more men in it and carry out any acts at all with any of them in front of the other/s.

I am against rape totally but I have seen friends wrongly accused of same by jealous ex girlfriends and others trying to destroy peoples lives and/or careers.

What disturbs me here however is, this witchhunt going on hysterically against him on social media and others out to block him ever likely working in football again.
Football is riddled with players doing wrong,if he is playing football he is playing it with other men,hardly likely to re-offend there.
I find it worrying that now he has been deemed to be released that such things are allowed to take place.

He is at present convicted of rape, he has been to prison, he is now out and has to report at times due to the sexual nature of the conviction.
That doesn't mean he will do it again,after all this hoo ha he would be crazy to even put himself in a situation where he could be even be suspected of it.
It is a very worrying thing that if someone has been punished by the law and then deemed with conditions to be safe to be released,that he can be hounded like this and also any clubs that may even want to try to give him another chance get threatened and hounded too.
That is what I find distasteful.

Rape is a horrific crime,anyone guilty of it, male or female should be punished by the law.
This further vindictive hounding of an individual however after satisfying the punishment meted out in law, isn't the way forward.
I say again, if it is found he was wrongly convicted in the first place then all these sorry goings on will be blight on justice for a fair while to come.

So I would give him the chance to play again or be involved with football if I owned a club, I would have him watched like a hawk to protect the club and hope the case being looked at again comes with that he was wrongly convicted in the first place.
To be honest, I myself actually have a feeling that is probably going to be the outcome of that looking into this conviction again too.

[Vicky.]

Having read a (very small) bit about the case facts just now, I am not convinced he even raped her tbh. Very odd sounding case.

[Nedusa]

Having read a (very small) bit about the case facts just now, I am not convinced he even raped her tbh. Very odd sounding case.

I agree very odd case with one of the accused acquitted of rape and the other found guilty yet they both insist they had consensual sex. I struggle to understand how a jury could find one guilty and totally aquit the other.

Maybe evidence has been withheld or the jury is misinformed or mislead , I don't know but a conviction of rape has changed this man's life forever.

Maybe a retrial is the answer.






.

[Ammi]

Reading a good article from the Sunday Times (its a subscription site but the article is posted here: http://members.boardhost.com/lutonoutlaws/msg/1420398131.html) detailing fully what happened that night (admittedly from a sympathetic to Evans view point) this point is raised:



Honestly I don't believe rape is black and white, I do think there are degrees of rape, and sometimes it is ambiguous particularly when both parties are drunk. The fact it can be unclear is almost self-evident considering that two men slept with the victim, she accused both of rape, one was found innocent and one was found guilty. Both the complainant, the court, and the two accused men thus saw the case differently; the victim thought both had committed rape, the court thought only one man was guilty of it, the two accused thought that neither of them were guilty. How is that black and white?

There is a big problem with sexual harassment in society no doubt and with people often not appreciating the line of consent. I've no doubt either that the whole ordeal has been a nightmare for the woman and that it's bad how some people have ignored her right to anonymity. But those issues should not be repeatedly used a stick to beat Evans with and to make an example of him. The witch hunt is getting out of control.

..I don't think that it is black and white but having read the court transcripts, it seems that the different verdicts with the two is because McDonald had met her in the street and they went back to the hotel room together so consent was a possibility...'element of doubt' I guess...but the medical experts felt that consent was unlikely with Evans due to her alcohol/drug levels...personally I do think that the guilty verdict with him was correct from reading it..and also that he took people to video it..?..so he had foreseen having sex with her before he went..?..and all od the appeals were thrown out...


..anyways, I still think that he's served his sentence and should be allowed to play football if a club is willing to take him on..otherwise what is the point of rehabilitation..I know that's a very emotional situation for the victim and I have every sympathy with her but justice has been served...he wouldn't be the first person to have a public career after being found guilty of a serious crime...wasn't Leslie Grantham convicted of murder..?..yeah it is hard for victims and their families but these happen to be the professions and sometimes those professions will be more 'public'...

[MTVN]

..I don't think that it is black and white but having read the court transcripts, it seems that the different verdicts with the two is because McDonald had met her in the street and they went back to the hotel room together so consent was a possibility...'element of doubt' I guess...but the medical experts felt that consent was unlikely with Evans due to her alcohol/drug levels...personally I do think that the guilty verdict with him was correct from reading it..and also that he took people to video it..?..so he had foreseen having sex with her before he went..?..and all od the appeals were thrown out...


..anyways, I still think that he's served his sentence and should be allowed to play football if a club is willing to take him on..otherwise what is the point of rehabilitation..I know that's a very emotional situation for the victim and I have every sympathy with her but justice has been served...he wouldn't be the first person to have a public career after being found guilty of a serious crime...wasn't Leslie Grantham convicted of murder..?..yeah it is hard for victims and their families but these happen to be the professions and sometimes those professions will be more 'public'...

As far as I know she hadn't had any more to drink than when she met McDonald though, with whom she apparently initiated sex. I don't think he had taken friends there to film it either, they were on there way to the police station because they needed to explain an incident that had happened with one of their friends when Evans got the text, and according to him they diverted because McDonald might want to come with them to the station or because he thought it'd be funny if he knew the girl. Once Evans had gone to the room the others started messing around trying to find the room from outside. Completely wrong of them but the sort of thing you could imagine happening. Both Evans and McDonald had had a threesome together in the past and both insist that they'd asked the girl if he could join in before he did, and she can't say either way whether they did or not because she apparently has no recollection. The night porter stopped outside the room and could hear people having sex but thought it didn't sound like anything untoward. You might say that even if they did ask and she agreed that she was too drunk to consent but then that just shows how ambiguous it all is, surely it's asking a lot for a man who himself has had a lot to drink to make such a judgement call as to whether the consent he's got was able to be given?

It's sorta strange how strongly public opinion has swayed because I remember in the months leading up to the trial that it seemed unlikely he would end up convicted. Even when he went down Sheffield United supported him in prison and he was visited by the chairman and by three successive managers continually giving the impression he'd be entitled to a return straight away. Then after his release it suddenly all blew up, and now it's gone out of control. It seems that even if people do think he can return to football now they have to qualify that by saying what a scumbag rapist he is.

You're right though he wouldn't be the first, not even in football. The current captain of Plymouth, Luke McCormick, killed two children while he was drink driving. Lee Hughes who plays for my local club also has a death by dangerous driving conviction. Marlon King has had numerous convictions, including one for sexual assault, and still returned to football each time (he's actually in prison right now for another dangerous driving conviction). I really think the way Evans has been hounded doesn't reflect well on society that someone can be punished on top of what has been decreed by the legal system. His fate is essentially being decided now by social media, by online petitions and campaigns. God knows why the likes of Ed Miliband have felt it their place to try and dictate his future, it's crazy.

[Nedusa]

Just read this in an article on this case......
"The police arrested both Ched and Clayton at the station, they acknowledged that the only evidence that sexual activity had taken place was their admission. There was no complaint of rape, no forensic evidence, no injury and no complaint.

Finally it should be noted that the burden of proof in criminal law lies with the Prosecution and that in order to gain a conviction the Prosecution must prove ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ that a crime was committed i.e. the Jury has to be sure an offence has taken place. Essentially, this means that following the submissions of the Prosecution if there remains any doubt that a crime has been committed the accused must be acquitted. It is not for the accused to prove his innocence"

I am baffled as to how any jury could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Ched Evans raped this woman ?

And like a lot of people who look into this case are shocked that any prosecution was actually brought . If you read the details of this case I'm sure you will agree something very odd going on.

I would suggest that a retrial now is urgently needed as this rape conviction looks extremely unsafe?






.

[Kizzy]

'The complainant, who was 19 years old'

'The CCTV footage showed that while she was inside the kebab shop she was unsteady on her feet, at one point she fell over and landed on the floor. On the other hand, outside the kebab shop she could be seen eating pizza from a large box, although she was also seen to stumble, squat, lose her balance, and walk unsteadily. Indeed, she left her handbag in the shop. Based on this evidence, the prosecution case was that she was very drunk.'

'At some time shortly before 4am McDonald became separated from the group of friends. The complainant seems to have wandered into his path. They had a conversation and got into a taxi. The taxi driver thought that her upper clothing was somewhat dishevelled. The taxi driver took them to the hotel, where the applicant had booked and paid for a room in McDonald's name. During the taxi journey McDonald sent a text message to the applicant telling him that he had "got a bird" or words to that effect.'

The prosecution case was that the applicant had booked the room at the hotel with the main or sole purpose of procuring a girl or girls later that night. According to the Crown's case, both men were on the look-out for any girl who was a suitable target. The complainant had literally stumbled across McDonald's path.

'In the meantime, no doubt in answer to the message that he had received from McDonald, the applicant arrived at the same hotel with two other male friends. He persuaded the night porter to give him a key card to the room occupied by McDonald and the complainant. He said that he had booked the room for a friend who no longer needed it. The applicant entered the room'

The applicant's two companions remained outside the hotel. They looked through the bedroom window and filmed what was taking place with a mobile telephone

'After about half an hour McDonald left the hotel via the reception. He had a brief word with the night porter, telling him that he should look out for the girl in room 14 (the room in question) because she was sick. The applicant did not leave by the front door; he went out by an emergency exit. McDonald and the applicant met up outside and they returned to the applicant's home.'

There's one word that springs to mind here... predatory.

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

[Vicky.]

Blokes booking a hotel room in the hope of scoring isnt anything new though

'Suitable target'...the prosecution adding that part just makes it sound awful. Its only opinion

[Vicky.]

The filming part is terrible though, if the girl didnt know about it. Again though, sadly not that uncommon

[Nedusa]

When questioned in the police station it should be noted that neither of the accused had ejaculated during sex as a result of which the police had no forensic evidence to link either man to the sexual act, nor did the police have a complaint of rape. Regardless of this, both men gave a full account of their actions to the police. On 26th July 2011 the police charged both Clayton and Ched with rape.

The statement above which is fact means that there were three people in the room , Ched his friend Clayton and the complainant, both men admitted having consensual sex with her, she did not remember nor did she report a rape or a suspected rape. No forensic evidence could prove intercourse had taken place .

So two drunken men have sex with a drunken woman, and suddenly allegations of rape are pulled out of thin air, unsubstantiated, unprovable.

Where have these rape claims come from ? Possibly from interested 3rd parties looking for a large payoff ?

But how could the CPS ever think there was a rape case here , and how on earth could a judge think any jury could find beyond a reasonable doubt that a rape had taken place ?

But most puzzling of all.......

HOW THE HELL COULD ANY JURY BRING A GUILTY VERDICT.....!!!!!!!

No wonder this Man denies the claim, absolute shocking travesty of justice.

More mainstream media sources need to start highlighting the above instead of continually repeating the mantra of
" Ched Evans..... Convicted Rapist"

[Kizzy]

When questioned in the police station it should be noted that neither of the accused had ejaculated during sex as a result of which the police had no forensic evidence to link either man to the sexual act, nor did the police have a complaint of rape. Regardless of this, both men gave a full account of their actions to the police. On 26th July 2011 the police charged both Clayton and Ched with rape.

The statement above which is fact means that there were three people in the room , Ched his friend Clayton and the complainant, both men admitted having consensual sex with her, she did not remember nor did she report a rape or a suspected rape. No forensic evidence could prove intercourse had taken place .

So two drunken men have sex with a drunken woman, and suddenly allegations of rape are pulled out of thin air, unsubstantiated, unprovable.

Where have these rape claims come from ? Possibly from interested 3rd parties looking for a large payoff ?

But how could the CPS ever think there was a rape case here , and how on earth could a judge think any jury could find beyond a reasonable doubt that a rape had taken place ?

But most puzzling of all.......

HOW THE HELL COULD ANY JURY BRING A GUILTY VERDICT.....!!!!!!!

No wonder this Man denies the claim, absolute shocking travesty of justice.

More mainstream media sources need to start highlighting the above instead of continually repeating the mantra of
" Ched Evans..... Convicted Rapist"

The media telling the truth... how unusual.

[Vicky.]

Well yeah technically he is a convicted rapist..but I can't get my head round how a jury decided there was no doubt whatsoever in this, especially given the girl knows nothing at all (apparently) of what went on. I really thought the burden of proof was on the accuser. I don't see how this can be anything except 'he says, she says'

[Kizzy]

There was seen to be a difference between having sex with the first guy which it was found she consented to ( as she accompanied him to a hotel was seen speaking with him and such by witnesses) and then the footballer turning up without her knowledge and him joining in whilst getting his mates to film it then sloping off through the side door.

[Nedusa]

There was seen to be a difference between having sex with the first guy which it was found she consented to ( as she accompanied him to a hotel was seen speaking with him and such by witnesses) and then the footballer turning up without her knowledge and him joining in whilst getting his mates to film it then sloping off through the side door.

Nonsense.....

There is no more proof that the first guy did not rape her whilst the second guy did.
Again I say.... There is no proof of rape by any means ie nobody complained of rape, there was no evidence of rape forensic or otherwise, nobody heard violent screams of rape ...... There was NO rape .

For a jury to deliver a guilty verdict ie beyond a reasonable doubt is utterly ridiculous and I for one now think this whole fiasco is a travesty of justice.

As for the people filming it well that's even more ludicrous I mean if they thought it was rape why would they film it ? Surely they then could be charged with aiding and abetting a rape.

They were all pretty drunk and jokingly tried to film some of the goings on through the window on a mobile phone.

Nobody was thinking this was a rape.....

This story astounds me as shakes my faith in British justice.

This is surely a miscarriage of justice , one that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

My thoughts go out to Ched Evans and his family for having to endure this nightmare.



.

[Kizzy]

Nonsense.....

There is no more proof that the first guy did not rape her whilst the second guy did.
Again I say.... There is no proof of rape by any means ie nobody complained of rape, there was no evidence of rape forensic or otherwise, nobody heard violent screams of rape ...... There was NO rape .

For a jury to deliver a guilty verdict ie beyond a reasonable doubt is utterly ridiculous and I for one now think this whole fiasco is a travesty of justice.

As for the people filming it well that's even more ludicrous I mean if they thought it was rape why would they film it ? Surely they then could be charged with aiding and abetting a rape.

They were all pretty drunk and jokingly tried to film some of the goings on through the window on a mobile phone.

Nobody was thinking this was a rape.....

This story astounds me as shakes my faith in British justice.

This is surely a miscarriage of justice , one that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

My thoughts go out to Ched Evans and his family for having to endure this nightmare.



.

If it was that black and white why even have a trial... what's some harmless voyeurism between friends?

[Nedusa]

If it was that black and white why even have a trial... what's some harmless voyeurism between friends?

My point exactly, there was no need for a trial as no crime had been reported by anybody , nor was there any evidence of any crime. In fact it appears a crime was concocted to fit the situation , sold to the complainant and then persued by the authorities .

Strangest court case I have come across in years.




.

[Kizzy]

My point exactly, there was no need for a trial as no crime had been reported by anybody , nor was there any evidence of any crime. In fact it appears a crime was concocted to fit the situation , sold to the complainant and then persued by the authorities .

Strangest court case I have come across in years.




.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s67__voyeurism/

Maybe their little home vid was what damned ol ched? It's not easy getting into prison these days, you may see it as a jolly jape by some young bucks but the victim, the jury and the judge obviously not.

[the truth]

there was no proof of anything...additonal;ly he has every right to return to work

[Ammi]

My point exactly, there was no need for a trial as no crime had been reported by anybody , nor was there any evidence of any crime. In fact it appears a crime was concocted to fit the situation , sold to the complainant and then persued by the authorities .

Strangest court case I have come across in years.




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..I don't get that though Nedusa because she did phone the police as soon as she woke up in the hotel room and couldn't remember going there etc...I don't think that she reported rape as such because that's the point and why consent was doubtful..she had no recollection of any of it so how could she have consented..?..that's not me btw saying that but what the court findings were with Chad and the reason it was different with McDonald is that she had approached him so consent was possible../element of doubt...


..also this case is more complicated as opposed to someone who may have accused someone of rape because they had regrets about something for the very reason that she didn't make any rape accusations when she called the police...their investigations led to that, surely..?...

[Ammi]

As far as I know she hadn't had any more to drink than when she met McDonald though, with whom she apparently initiated sex. I don't think he had taken friends there to film it either, they were on there way to the police station because they needed to explain an incident that had happened with one of their friends when Evans got the text, and according to him they diverted because McDonald might want to come with them to the station or because he thought it'd be funny if he knew the girl. Once Evans had gone to the room the others started messing around trying to find the room from outside. Completely wrong of them but the sort of thing you could imagine happening. Both Evans and McDonald had had a threesome together in the past and both insist that they'd asked the girl if he could join in before he did, and she can't say either way whether they did or not because she apparently has no recollection. The night porter stopped outside the room and could hear people having sex but thought it didn't sound like anything untoward. You might say that even if they did ask and she agreed that she was too drunk to consent but then that just shows how ambiguous it all is, surely it's asking a lot for a man who himself has had a lot to drink to make such a judgement call as to whether the consent he's got was able to be given?

It's sorta strange how strongly public opinion has swayed because I remember in the months leading up to the trial that it seemed unlikely he would end up convicted. Even when he went down Sheffield United supported him in prison and he was visited by the chairman and by three successive managers continually giving the impression he'd be entitled to a return straight away. Then after his release it suddenly all blew up, and now it's gone out of control. It seems that even if people do think he can return to football now they have to qualify that by saying what a scumbag rapist he is.

You're right though he wouldn't be the first, not even in football. The current captain of Plymouth, Luke McCormick, killed two children while he was drink driving. Lee Hughes who plays for my local club also has a death by dangerous driving conviction. Marlon King has had numerous convictions, including one for sexual assault, and still returned to football each time (he's actually in prison right now for another dangerous driving conviction). I really think the way Evans has been hounded doesn't reflect well on society that someone can be punished on top of what has been decreed by the legal system. His fate is essentially being decided now by social media, by online petitions and campaigns. God knows why the likes of Ed Miliband have felt it their place to try and dictate his future, it's crazy.

..I can't see anything that says how much both of the men had to drink that night...that was also an awful lot, then..?..I can't see anything either about them all going to the police station to report an incident but then I haven't really followed the case and just read the transcript from the trial so that was probably something revealed earlier..(I think..) that the initial report from her was that she thought that her drink had been spiked, which actually I have to say..(not by either of them though..)...that's what I was thinking but there was no evidence of that from blood test results and then when the police knew that two footballers had booked the hotel room/and her suspicions of a spiked drink and the sexual activity..it is possible that links were made that might have been incorrect ..

...I do understand and agree that if they had all been drinking similar amounts of alcohol..how could their judgement of the situation have been clear but I guess the difference is that they are saying it was clear by saying she did give consent..I mean they're not saying that they think or interpreted that she did...whereas she's saying that she doesn't remember..she didn't accuse anyone etc...only the police can decide whether a charge will be made..(I believe..)..so they made that decision based on the evidence they had and it could have been dropped with the absence of an accusation from her and yet wasn't..?...yeah, most definitely not black and white at all....

..but I do agree that the way Evans is now being petitioned against and hounded by the media does not reflect well at all..it kind of takes it a step further from trial by media because he's already been convicted and served his sentence...to another level of..'we will try to intervene and influence in the rest of your life because the judicial system id not enough..'...this is really so wrong and worrying....

[Nedusa]

..I don't get that though Nedusa because she did phone the police as soon as she woke up in the hotel room and couldn't remember going there etc...I don't think that she reported rape as such because that's the point and why consent was doubtful..she had no recollection of any of it so how could she have consented..?..that's not me btw saying that but what the court findings were with Chad and the reason it was different with McDonald is that she had approached him so consent was possible../element of doubt...


..also this case is more complicated as opposed to someone who may have accused someone of rape because they had regrets about something for the very reason that she didn't make any rape accusations when she called the police...their investigations led to that, surely..?...


I think she phoned the police because she thought her drink had been spiked and she couldn't remember getting to the hotel, also her phone and handbag were missing (she actually left these at the kebab shop). She didn't complain of any physical symptoms of a rape.

The cctv allowed the police to contact the two footballers and they went to the nearest police station and gave the police full and honest accounts of what happened. They both admitted consensual sex and this perhaps made the police decide a possible rape had taken place.

In the event a toxicology report showed this woman had no date rape drugs in her system and cctv clearly showed her able to walk in heels unaided and fairly aware of all around her.

As I said she made no complaint of rape and I can only imagine the footballers honesty coupled with the circumstances of taking the girl back to the hotel may have led to the police suggesting she was raped.

Had both footballers said nothing then there would have been no grounds for any charges to have been brought as there was no evidence a crime had been committed. No forensic evidence, no witness evidence, etc

This is why I have a big problem trying to get into the minds of jurors when they decided beyond a reasonable doubt that ONE of them did commit rape ..????

This I have a real problem with, and this is why I think a mistrial or retrial is needed as this conviction is surely unsafe.




.

[Shaun]

He seems to have agreed terms with Oldham now.

[Kizzy]

I think she phoned the police because she thought her drink had been spiked and she couldn't remember getting to the hotel, also her phone and handbag were missing (she actually left these at the kebab shop). She didn't complain of any physical symptoms of a rape.

The cctv allowed the police to contact the two footballers and they went to the nearest police station and gave the police full and honest accounts of what happened. They both admitted consensual sex and this perhaps made the police decide a possible rape had taken place.

In the event a toxicology report showed this woman had no date rape drugs in her system and cctv clearly showed her able to walk in heels unaided and fairly aware of all around her.

As I said she made no complaint of rape and I can only imagine the footballers honesty coupled with the circumstances of taking the girl back to the hotel may have led to the police suggesting she was raped.

Had both footballers said nothing then there would have been no grounds for any charges to have been brought as there was no evidence a crime had been committed. No forensic evidence, no witness evidence, etc

This is why I have a big problem trying to get into the minds of jurors when they decided beyond a reasonable doubt that ONE of them did commit rape ..????

This I have a real problem with, and this is why I think a mistrial or retrial is needed as this conviction is surely unsafe.




.
It's not unusual for there to be no date rape drug in the system after a few hours, that's why they're date rape drugs.

His 'friend' came across someone so vulnerable they could not stand, was disorientated and had no bag so no money to get home that in itself is odd enough.
But for him to turn up at 5am with an entourage? That's creepy.
She had been working that evening so perhaps she wasn't even fully conscious by 5am? If you want consent the girl has to be awake as a rule.

[Locke.]

I'm glad Oldham didn't cave in to the pressure. Two and a half year deal with 2k p/w wages, could make his first appearance this weekend apparantely

[Nedusa]

It's not unusual for there to be no date rape drug in the system after a few hours, that's why they're date rape drugs.

His 'friend' came across someone so vulnerable they could not stand, was disorientated and had no bag so no money to get home that in itself is odd enough.
But for him to turn up at 5am with an entourage? That's creepy.
She had been working that evening so perhaps she wasn't even fully conscious by 5am? If you want consent the girl has to be awake as a rule.


Yes, I hear what you are saying and I agree the circumstances surrounding this do look suspicious but she could have given consent and forgotten plus both footballers testified that she did give consent plus the guys at the windows heard all the normal sounds of lovemaking including her requesting oral sex from one of the footballers, so let's not think she was unconscious and had no part to play.

Again I come back to the question of was a rape committed and how a jury could say beyond a reasonable doubt that ONE of them committed rape the other didn't ??

This is disturbing and should be investigated as one cannot see any circumstances where one is innocent but the other guilty.

This conviction is unsafe and a retrial should be ordered at the very least.




.

[Nedusa]

He seems to have agreed terms with Oldham now.

They probably are aware of the legal situation and perhaps they think a retrial will result or that the conviction is unsafe, either way they feel he has been punished enough and should be allowed to earn a living.

Plus they get a very good footballer in a cut price deal.





.

[Kizzy]

Yes, I hear what you are saying and I agree the circumstances surrounding this do look suspicious but she could have given consent and forgotten plus both footballers testified that she did give consent plus the guys at the windows heard all the normal sounds of lovemaking including her requesting oral sex from one of the footballers, so let's not think she was unconscious and had no part to play.

Again I come back to the question of was a rape committed and how a jury could say beyond a reasonable doubt that ONE of them committed rape the other didn't ??

This is disturbing and should be investigated as one cannot see any circumstances where one is innocent but the other guilty.

This conviction is unsafe and a retrial should be ordered at the very least.




.

Where is the record of this request?
She met had a conversation, shared a taxi, entered a hotel, was witness entering a room with one... the other entered without her prior knowledge ( so to speak)

[Ammi]

I think she phoned the police because she thought her drink had been spiked and she couldn't remember getting to the hotel, also her phone and handbag were missing (she actually left these at the kebab shop). She didn't complain of any physical symptoms of a rape.

The cctv allowed the police to contact the two footballers and they went to the nearest police station and gave the police full and honest accounts of what happened. They both admitted consensual sex and this perhaps made the police decide a possible rape had taken place.

In the event a toxicology report showed this woman had no date rape drugs in her system and cctv clearly showed her able to walk in heels unaided and fairly aware of all around her.

As I said she made no complaint of rape and I can only imagine the footballers honesty coupled with the circumstances of taking the girl back to the hotel may have led to the police suggesting she was raped.

Had both footballers said nothing then there would have been no grounds for any charges to have been brought as there was no evidence a crime had been committed. No forensic evidence, no witness evidence, etc

This is why I have a big problem trying to get into the minds of jurors when they decided beyond a reasonable doubt that ONE of them did commit rape ..????

This I have a real problem with, and this is why I think a mistrial or retrial is needed as this conviction is surely unsafe.




.

..so did they both talk to the police and give a statement without their solicitors present..(who I guess would have told them to say nothing until they had spoken to him/her..)....that would seem a bit odd as well...

[kirklancaster]

He seems to have agreed terms with Oldham now.

Good for him. I'm pleased. And good for those at the club responsible for the decision.

[Nedusa]

Where is the record of this request?
She met had a conversation, shared a taxi, entered a hotel, was witness entering a room with one... the other entered without her prior knowledge ( so to speak)


To be honest I've said enough about this now, feel maybe you are just playing devils advocate to keep the thread going.

Suggest you read up on this case and read the transcripts from the trial and I'm sure a person of your intelligence will see that there are more than a few problems with this whole case.

Glad he is at least going to be given a chance to earn a living so at least he will have some money to help fund his fight to clear his name.




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[kirklancaster]

To be honest I've said enough about this now, feel maybe you are just playing devils advocate to keep the thread going.

Suggest you read up on this case and read the transcripts from the trial and I'm sure a person of your intelligence will see that there are more than a few problems with this whole case.

Glad he is at least going to be given a chance to earn a living so at least he will have some money to help fund his fight to clear his name.

.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[smudgie]

I wonder how many sponsors etc will walk away from the club.:shrug:

[Locke.]

A deal has been agreed for convicted rapist Ched Evans to play for Oldham Athletic, the club's sponsors say.

They have been told to prepare for an announcement confirming the signing of striker Evans on Thursday or Friday, the BBC has learned.

One sponsor, Verlin Rainwater Solutions, has now ended its association with the club as a result.

Director Craig Verling said the "imminent signing" of Evans, 26, had prompted the decision.

He added: "We would like to take this opportunity to make clear that we feel that Mr Evans should be able to lead a life without further punishment after serving his sentence, although our feelings remain the same that this should not be within the public domain where his previous behaviour may influence the next generation.

"We sincerely wish the club a very successful future and have no regrets about being associated with Oldham Athletic over the past few seasons, but feel our continued support would be sending out the wrong message."

A second sponsor, ZenOffice, said it will also end its association with the club if Evans signs.

Managing director Les Kerr said Oldham's "current path" did not "espouse" the company's values of "family and community".

Oldham, who are 14th in League One, said there would be no statement on Wednesday but hope to make a statement on Thursday.

Wales international Evans was expected to join the Latics on a long-term deal and train with the club on Monday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30681333

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wonder how many sponsors etc will walk away from the club.:shrug:

tbf they dont have that many

[Kizzy]

To be honest I've said enough about this now, feel maybe you are just playing devils advocate to keep the thread going.

Suggest you read up on this case and read the transcripts from the trial and I'm sure a person of your intelligence will see that there are more than a few problems with this whole case.

Glad he is at least going to be given a chance to earn a living so at least he will have some money to help fund his fight to clear his name.




.

Excuse me? I've said as much and as little as yourself on this topic, I shouldn't have to feel guilty for voicing my opinion on any subject ...and let it be known I most certainly don't on this one.
If you don't wish to continue your input in this debate that's your prerogative.

[Nedusa]

Excuse me? I've said as much and as little as yourself on this topic, I shouldn't have to feel guilty for voicing my opinion on any subject ...and let it be known I most certainly don't on this one.
If you don't wish to continue your input in this debate that's your prerogative.

I have no reason to make you feel "guilty " as you say, not my intent. I have tried to show at some length the deep legal flaws in this case, the glaring errors the lack of any type of real evidence to suggest a rape had taken place, the absence of even a complaint of rape or anything untoward.

No shouts of stop of screams of rape, yet sounds from the women in question were heard and possibly observerd by 3rd parties.

For a jury to decide beyond ALL reasonable doubt that one of these men is a rapist but the other innocent is quite ridiculous.

I feel the points you make in your threads comment only on the circumstances which could be interpreted as suspicious if other more damming evidence existed. Taken together I agree this may help the prosecutions case, but as there was no evidence of an actual crime, the jury must decide on primary evidence of which there was none.

So this conviction for rape handed down to this footballer who probably never thought in a million years he would end up as a rapist after a drunken night out, was given to him by a jury who decided he probably was a rapist because ....?????

Exactly ...???? Because of what ??

Simply put there is not enough evidence to convict one of these footballers beyond a reasonable doubt whilst con firming the other one was innocent.

I am not a barrister but even I can see the huge flaws in this case.

Anyway, glad he has a contract now and may be able to earn enough to help fund the fight to clear his name.





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[Crimson Dynamo]

BBC keep reporting on the "convicted rapist" Ched Evans

Surely once a man has served his time he deserves to lose that taG?

[Niamh.]

BBC keep reporting on the "convicted rapist" Ched Evans

Surely once a man has served his time he deserves to lose that taG?

He is a convicted rapist though :shrug:

[arista]

BBC keep reporting on the "convicted rapist" Ched Evans

Surely once a man has served his time he deserves to lose that taG?


Feck The BBC

[Nedusa]

He is a convicted rapist though :shrug:

One almost gets the feeling given the voracity of the media's hate campaign against him, even if his rape conviction was overturned the media would still introduce him as..

Ched Evans .... Ex Convicted Rapist . Lol






.

[Crimson Dynamo]

He is a convicted rapist though :shrug:

Yes but I dont hear the BBC say and now at the cricket its convicted wife beater Geoffrey Boycott..

[Niamh.]

Yes but I dont hear the BBC say and now at the cricket its convicted wife beater Geoffrey Boycott..

maybe they should :idc:

[kirklancaster]

Yes but I dont hear the BBC say and now at the cricket its convicted wife beater Geoffrey Boycott..

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Nor did we ever hear anyone refer to the 'Dirty Den' actor as 'Convicted Murder and Corpse Robber Lesley Grantham'.

The words 'Sensationalism' and 'Witch Hunt' spring to mind.

[kirklancaster]

Feck The BBC

Yes Arista, I agree.

[Crimson Dynamo]

maybe they should :idc:

:joker:




http://www.hippy.com/rosie_the_riveter.jpg