12 year old Boy shot dead for carrying a fake gun

[Niamh.]

The fact that this was posted on twitter is not relevent. It's his version of what happened that is. He is a "witness". Thanks. If what is said on twitter shouldn't be relevant then Richard Madeley and what's her face shouldn't have brought charges against someone that threatened rape.


Another fun fact. Walmart donated $10000 to support pig, when a black man was killed days earlier by police for holding an air gun from their shelf. And in googling air gun just found news that the same happened to a 12 year old black boy. :facepalm:

Oh I just read about that, awful, poor kid. Here's the link to that story :


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30172433

A 12-year-old boy has died after being shot by police in the US city of Cleveland, after carrying what turned out to be a replica gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at Tamir Rice after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

He did not make any verbal threats nor point the gun towards the officers.

A lawyer representing his family said it would be carrying out its own investigation into what happened.

The incident comes as a grand jury decision in Ferguson, Missouri, will decide imminently whether to indict a police officer in the fatal shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager.

http://i.imgur.com/BCSLCtZ.jpg

His shooting in August in Ferguson sparked days of violent protests in the town, prompting a heavy police crackdown.

'Airsoft'
The boy was shot on Saturday afternoon and died in hospital early on Sunday morning.

Cleveland deputy police chief Ed Tomba said the boy was shot twice after pulling the gun from the waistband of his trousers.


Tamir Rice had a "baby face" according to his family's lawyer Timothy Kucharski
Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol, adding that an orange safety indicator had been removed.

An audio recording of the 911 emergency call made by the man who reported the incident reveals that on two occasions he said that the pistol was "probably a fake" and on another occasion that the person holding it "was probably a juvenile".

The caller also said that he was not sure whether the weapon was "real or not".

But Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland police association, said the two officers at the scene were not told about the caller's comments.

One of the officers involved was in his first year on the local force, the other had more than 10 years of experience.

The BBC's David Willis in Washington says an official investigation is under way and both officers have been placed on administrative leave.

Tamir Rice's father, Gregory Henderson, said that police should have used a stun gun - or Taser - to subdue his son rather than shoot him.

"Why not Tase him?" he was quoted as asking by Cleveland.com. "[They] shot him twice, not once, and at the end of the day you all don't shoot for the legs, you shoot for the upper body," he said.

Mr Henderson said that Tamir was a "respectful young man" who "minded his elders", and that it was a mystery to him why his son, reported to be tall for his age, allegedly did not follow police orders.

[arista]

Oh I just read about that, awful, poor kid. Here's the link to that story :


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30172433


In this case he was Told what to do
he did not.


When police say drop it
you do it fast in America


Its a tragic case
but the Police were doing their job

[Niamh.]

In this case he was Told what to do
he did not.


When police say drop it
you do it fast in America


Its a tragic case
but the Police were doing their job

Yeah but he was a 12 year old child, why did they not Taser him or if they had to shoot, why not the leg or something, why shoot to kill?

[lostalex]

Yeah but he was a 12 year old child, why did they not Taser him or if they had to shoot, why not the leg or something, why shoot to kill?

because they thought he had a gun and was waving it around. i can't think of many things more dangerous than a 12 y/o with a gun.

Have you ever tried to reason with a 12 y/o?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yeah but he was a 12 year old child, why did they not Taser him or if they had to shoot, why not the leg or something, why shoot to kill?

on the street of the USA you cant risk it. The gun looks real to me and the kid looks older than 12

[Niamh.]

on the street of the USA you cant risk it. The gun looks real to me and the kid looks older than 12

He doesn't look that old and the person who reported it mentioned atleast twice to the operator that the gun was probably fake and that the boy was most likely a juvenile

[arista]

Yeah but he was a 12 year old child, why did they not Taser him or if they had to shoot, why not the leg or something, why shoot to kill?



I do not know about the Taser lack of use.



Yes we find out after
he was a 12 year old playing with a toy.


In America
ok in you home
but to let a child run around
was not good.


Tragic and sad loss

[Crimson Dynamo]

He doesn't look that old and the person who reported it mentioned atleast twice to the operator that the gun was probably fake and that the boy was most likely a juvenile

yes but if you are a cop in the line of duty "probably a fake" can get you killed and your wife a widow..

[lostalex]

yes but if you are a cop in the line of duty "probably a fake" can get you killed and your wife a widow..

Not to mention how often we hear about kids finding their parents guns. We are constantly being told by the liberal media how often kids take their parents guns, so it's not a stretch to believe a 12 y/o might have a real gun.

[Niamh.]

yes but if you are a cop in the line of duty "probably a fake" can get you killed and your wife a widow..

That comes with the job though, they should be trained to react more cautiously especially when they're armed and dealing with a juvenile

[Crimson Dynamo]

That comes with the job though, they should be trained to react more cautiously especially when they're armed and dealing with a juvenile

Its hard to judge the tensions in that area, what the cop had experienced that week, what he saw etc. But as arista says - when a cop says down, you go down and you dont play with replica guns in the street no matter what age you are

[Niamh.]

Its hard to judge the tensions in that area, what the cop had experienced that week, what he saw etc. But as arista says - when a cop says down, you go down and you dont play with replica guns in the street no matter what age you are

my son is always playing with toy guns, firing them out the window of the car and pretending to shoot people in the supermarket, our police aren't armed here thankfully and people don't automatically assume he's a crazy 10 year old killer

[Crimson Dynamo]

my son is always playing with toy guns, firing them out the window of the car and pretending to shoot people in the supermarket, our police aren't armed here thankfully and people don't automatically assume he's a crazy 10 year old killer

yes, small boy LT hangs out the window with his Uzi 9mm assassinating people like he is in GTA V :joker:

but round here aint USA

[Tom4784]

Terrible, another example of a corrupt and racist police force. It's a shame that, ultimately, crimes like these are doomed to repeat themselves.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The gun was an "airsoft" type replica that resembled a semi-automatic handgun. Fake weapons normally have an orange safety indicator on the muzzle but it had been removed, police said.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/24/1416845856427/933d4cc6-1b2b-41c7-8f89-353b76f8536d-460x276.jpeg


The boy did not make any verbal threats but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands.

You play with fire...

[arista]

The gun was an "airsoft" type replica that resembled a semi-automatic handgun. Fake weapons normally have an orange safety indicator on the muzzle but it had been removed, police said.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/24/1416845856427/933d4cc6-1b2b-41c7-8f89-353b76f8536d-460x276.jpeg


The boy did not make any verbal threats but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands.

You play with fire...



Yes No Orange plastic
so could be Real.



Police were just doing their Job



Parents in America know the score

[arista]

Terrible, another example of a corrupt and racist police force. It's a shame that, ultimately, crimes like these are doomed to repeat themselves.



No Dezzy
check LT's photo of the gun the kid had

[GiRTh]

Agree with Niamh.

There are very few incidents of 12 years old shooting cops so I think the cops might have used a bit more common sense.

[GiRTh]

Also the fact that the emergency call mentioned a number of times that he thought it was fake should also have been taken into consideration. I find it saddening the way the Police are allowed to use such strong arm tactics on children and some people think its justified.

[Tom4784]

No Dezzy
check LT's photo of the gun the kid had

Considering how quick they are to use them, you'd think a fully trained officer could be able to tell the difference between a toy and the real thing as well.

Never mind the fact that, if there was a situation, the police officer should have diffused the situation calmly or at worst use non lethal force, not shoot a child and realise his mistake afterwards. At best he is an incompetent officer that murdered a child, at worst he is an incompetent racist officer who racially profiled the child and tackled the situation with extreme prejudice.

Would this officer be so quick to fire if the child was white? I think not.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Agree with Niamh.

There are very few incidents of 12 years old shooting cops so I think the cops might have used a bit more common sense.

they had no idea what age he was and as has been said before kids can get guns easily from homes in USA

he was told to go down but he went for the gun

the cop has a split second to make a decision

[GiRTh]

they had no idea what age he was and as has been said before kids can get guns easily from homes in USA

he was told to go down but he went for the gun

the cop has a split second to make a decision
The cop had more than enough info to make a better call. I note that the police are now saying they didnt have the info that the gun may be fake. Its utter incompetence at best and something much more sinister at worse.

[arista]

Considering how quick they are to use them, you'd think a fully trained officer could be able to tell the difference between a toy and the real thing as well.

Never mind the fact that, if there was a situation, the police officer should have diffused the situation calmly or at worst use non lethal force, not shoot a child and realise his mistake afterwards. At best he is an incompetent officer that murdered a child, at worst he is an incompetent racist officer who racially profiled the child and tackled the situation with extreme prejudice.

Would this officer be so quick to fire if the child was white? I think not.



Yes he would
if you do not follow the cops instructions
it will be fatal

[GiRTh]

Heres another piece of rank incompetence. Starts at about 30 seconds.

v8ZechD0qiY

Absolute ******ing disgrace and this happened just a few months ago. The cop tells the man to get his ID he goes for it and still gets lit up with the Cop saying he 'Dove' for it. What utter garbage, the man obeyed the officers instruction if the pofficer wanted him to move slower then he should have said 'SLOWLY get your ID'. Thank god this tw*t has been fired. I dont see how any one can defend these wanaqbee soldiers.

[Marc]

Well that'll serve people right; no carrying fake guns :fist:

[lostalex]

Well that'll serve people right; no carrying fake guns :fist:

the person that called 911 called because the kid was being an asshole and waving around a fake gun intimidating people. He wasn't just playing cops and robbers with his friends, he was being a little wanna be thug intimidating people.

Maybe certain communities should stop raising wanna be thugs, glorifying violence, that either end up being real thugs, or get killed along the way.

Why are we blaming cops for trying to do something about the violence in the communities that have a real violence problem?

If the cops didn't show up then they would be complaining that the police don't care about those communities.

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Ninastar]

the person that called 911 called because the kid was being an asshole and waving around a fake gun intimidating people. He wasn't just playing cops and robbers with his friends, he was being a little wanna be thug intimidating people.

Maybe certain communities should stop raising wanna be thugs, that either end up being real thugs, or get killed along the way.

I didnt know this...

People are so determined these days to call out people for being racist, when they arent.

as I mentioned in the other thread, if cops were truly racist, black people would be totally ****ed.

[lostalex]

I didnt know this...

People are so determined these days to call out people for being racist, when they arent.

as I mentioned in the other thread, if cops were truly racist, black people would be totally ****ed.

Exactly. if white people in America wanted to kill all black people, it would already be done by now.

America would look like Sweden by now if we were racist.

[Marc]

Can we keep the personal attacks/assumptions out of discussions please.

[Shaun]

I didnt know this...

People are so determined these days to call out people for being racist, when they arent.

as I mentioned in the other thread, if cops were truly racist, black people would be totally ****ed.

yeah because they have it great atm

[lostalex]

yeah because they have it great atm

"THEY" as you put it, are all individuals with amazing opportunities in a free country.

[Crimson Dynamo]

yeah because they have it great atm

They have a black president?:shrug:

[Ninastar]

yeah because they have it great atm

well they aren't exactly helping themselves, rioting and intimidating people with fake guns.

the whole thing is being blown well out of proportion. it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad, if the people who are rioting, didn't riot...

[lostalex]

it's amazing how little progress we have made in 20 years...

1Pevb9LdIy8

[Crimson Dynamo]

it's amazing how little progress we have made in 20 years...

1Pevb9LdIy8

omg that video

:joker:


that lady looks like :worry:

[Tom4784]

"THEY" as you put it, are all individuals with amazing opportunities in a free country.

Except they face racial profiling and discrimination on a daily basis. Seriously Alex, do you even live in America? Because to me it sounds like you're living in a Bruce Springsteen idealised fantasy land.

You're more concerned with your national pride then accepting the fact that your country has flaws. Sticking your head in the sand will not make those problems go away. You should be furious at stories like this, not victim blaming to keep your delusional idea of America intact.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Except they face racial profiling and discrimination on a daily basis. Seriously Alex, do you even live in America? Because to me it sounds like you're living in a Bruce Springsteen idealised fantasy land.

You're more concerned with your national pride then accepting the fact that your country has flaws. Sticking your head in the sand will not make those problems go away. You should be furious at stories like this, not victim blaming to keep your delusional idea of America intact.

so just how did a black man get to be president in such a racist KKK fuelled environment?

[lostalex]

Except they face racial profiling and discrimination on a daily basis. Seriously Alex, do you even live in America? Because to me it sounds like you're living in a Bruce Springsteen idealised fantasy land.

You're more concerned with your national pride then accepting the fact that your country has flaws. Sticking your head in the sand will not make those problems go away. You should be furious at stories like this, not victim blaming to keep your delusional idea of America intact.
i'm furious with the media, not my country, because this case has nothing to do with my country, federal police have nothing to do with it, and this particular case says nothing about America.

This was a local police force, and a local jury that have nothing to do with America as a whole.

Yes i get annoyed when international press tries to slate America as a whole over small cases just for entertainment and sensationalist purposes. of course i am.

[GiRTh]

so just how did a black man get to be president in such a racist KKK fuelled environment?:facepalm:

[lostalex]

:facepalm:

are you actually going to say something logical, present a good case for us here? or do you just like responding to everything with stupid cartoon smiley emoticons and google images? do you actually have anything intelligent to say?

You don't seem to be able to articulate your opinions in any kind of intelligent way.

You just seem to be trying to ridicule others with dumb cartoon images.

[GiRTh]

are you actually going to say something logical, present a good case for us here? or do you just like responding to everything with stupid cartoon smiley emoticons and google images? do you actually have any intelligent to say?

You don't seem to be able to articulate your opinions in any kind of intelligent way.:joker:

Sorry had to laugh at YOU of all people saying that.

You'rw attempting to justify a cop shooting a 12 year old for pointing a toy gun and you accuse me of having nothing intelligent to say? There is an astonishing lack of self awareness here.

[Crimson Dynamo]

:joker:

Sorry had to laugh at YOU of all people saying that.

You'rw attempting to justify a cop shooting a 12 year old for pointing a toy gun and you accuse me of having nothing intelligent to say?

If that is how you see it and justify it to yourself, no wonder you feel that way.

meanwhile in the real world...

[GiRTh]

If that is how you see it and justify it to yourself, no wonder you feel that way.

meanwhile in the real world...You're trying to justify killing children. In my fantasy world grown up cops dont kill children.

[Tom4784]

i'm furious with the media, not my country, because this case has nothing to do with my country, federal police have nothing to do with it, and this particular case says nothing about America.

This was a local police force, and a local jury that have nothing to do with America as a whole.

Yes i get annoyed when international press tries to slate America as a whole over small cases just for entertainment and sensationalist purposes. of course i am.

You're furious with people reporting it but not the crime itself? You, and people like you, are what's wrong with America.

[Liam-]

You're trying to justify killing children. In my fantasy world grown up cops dont kill children.

Unless they see said child/children as a current danger to the public.

[GiRTh]

Unless they see said child/children as a current danger to the public.There have been very few incidents of that. 12 year olds are not the ideal profile for a serial killer

[Crimson Dynamo]

You're trying to justify killing children. In my fantasy world grown up cops dont kill children.

You need to spend a day in a patrol car

that would wipe the smirk off your face :nono:

[GiRTh]

You need to spend a day in a patrol car

that would wipe the smirk off your face :nono:I doubt it.

[Liam-]

There have been very few incidents of that. 12 year olds are not the ideal profile for a serial killer

No-one said the kid was a serial killer.. but he was waving around, what looked like, a real gun.

Would you have preferred the cop in question to stop, walk up to him and check whether the thing was real or not?

He was simply doing his job, assessing a situation and dealing with it the way he was taught how to, to take out the main cause of danger, with appropriate action.

[lostalex]

Wow, this thread, and most others here, i really feel like... ARE YOU PEOPLE LIVING ON THE SAME PLANET THAT I AM? I cannot believe how ignorant people can be, i don't understand if they are really ignorant, or if they are just trying to manipulate things. Are most people STUPID? or are they LYING for their own purposes? i don't know.

I cant explain it.

[GiRTh]

No-one said the kid was a serial killer.. but he was waving around, what look liked, a real gun.

Would you have preferred the cop in question to stop, walk up to him and check whether the thing was real or not?

He was simply doing his job, assessing a situation and dealing with it the way he was taught how to, to take out the main cause of danger, with appropriate action.
The cop was given information that the gun may be fake but I see now the police are denying getting that info. Surely the cop could have handled it better.

[lostalex]

The cop was given information that the gun may be fake but I see now the police are denying getting that info. Surely the cop could have handled it better.

someone was concerned enough to call the cops, that means it wasn't just a kid playing, it was a kid threatening people with a very realistic gun.

[JoshBB]

Yeah but he was a 12 year old child, why did they not Taser him or if they had to shoot, why not the leg or something, why shoot to kill?

This exactly. Tasering wouldn't have killed and if shooting was necessary, to the leg would have been better.

[lostalex]

This exactly. Tasering wouldn't have killed and if shooting was necessary, to the leg would have been better.

because if you believe the kid has a gun it only takes a split second to kill someone.

Why did the kid have a very realistic gun, and why was he threatening other people with it and why were people calling 911 begging cops to come figure it out?

[GiRTh]

someone was concerned enough to call the cops, that means it wasn't just a kid playing, it was a kid threatening people with a very realistic gun.A gun that the caller said may have been fake. I would nt expect a member of the public to be able to tell a real or fake but I';m horrified that a trained cop cant tell the difference even when warned.

[kirklancaster]

In this case he was Told what to do
he did not.


When police say drop it
you do it fast in America


Its a tragic case
but the Police were doing their job

Come on Arista FFS. The police's job is not to execute, obviously juvenile kids -- realistic toy gun or not -- when there are other options.

I have seen enough real-life documentaries on US cops to know that in similar situations involving grown men armed with real guns, one cop at least, has his weapon drawn, while the other has his taser at the ready.

It takes no longer to fire a taser than it does a firearm, and when the 'suspect' is quite evidently a child, immobilising should always take precedence over shooting to kill.

The guy who made the 911 emergency call reporting the incident maintains that he said "on two occasions" that the gun was "probably fake" and that the person holding it "was probably a juvenile".

Yet, the police seek to mitigate these trigger-happy pair of rogues by explaining that "the two officers at the scene were not told about the caller's comments."

So fecking what? Whose fault is this monumental, inexcusable, breakdown in police procedure and strategy? Vital information concerning a possible armed suspect is not relayed to the officers in the front line and this is tendered as an excuse?

You can 'bet ya by golly wow', that if the 911 caller had reported that the 'suspect' had been a 20 stone 'gang-banger' wielding a genuine gun, that such vital information would definitely have found its way 'post haste' to any attending officers.

The fact that the police authorities claim that such information was not relayed in the case of a 12 year old with a toy gun, does not ring true to me, and I believe that it was indeed relayed, but ignored by a trigger happy thug who had his own agenda. I believe such a claim by the authorities is an 'after the fact' bit of 'damage limitation' in an attempt to 'close ranks' and protect two of their own.

I also believe that racism is the real cause behind this unacceptable killing, but not institutional racism endemic in the police itself, but rather the deep seated personal racism of at least one of the attending officers.

Any authority attracts maggots who have their own agenda. Sexual deviants, bitter, twisted hate-filled men who were bullied at school, racists, sociopaths, and even psychopaths, all seek roles within the police force, prison service or childrens' homes because those positions empower them, and affords them the opportunities to realise their secret agendas.

The trouble is, that 50 years ago, standards of entry to such authorities and institutions were so rigorous, employment applications by these maggots were - for the most part - rejected out of hand.

Unfortunately, as society degenerates with each passing year, standards fall accordingly, and institutions and authorities have now more than their share of these maggots.

Think about it; policemen and prison officers are not recruited from Mars - they are recruited from the same fecked up degenerate society we all live in. As, indeed are those people who hold the power positions in the organisations which recruit these officers.

Even the 'good guys' in today's police have not the same moral compass as their counterparts of 50 to 60 years ago, because society has not. What was deemed unacceptable behaviour then by individual 'bobbies' and the force in general, does not raise an eyebrow in todays force, or in its individual officers - because it is now acceptable by society's (degenerate) standards.

There are rogues and racists in the police forces of any country, and as long as the authorities place protecting their own before 'protecting and serving' the public interest, then they are as culpable as the maggots they are covering up for.

Finally, the people living in the communities affected by these 'incidents' are not stupid - they 'know' the 'status quo' regarding racism in the police force which serves them, and they should be listened to.

The cost of continually disregarding them and dismissing their testimony is a price which will eventually bankrupt all of us - on both sides of the pond.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would imagine many calls to cops the Joe Public says it may be a fake gun, how the hell is the average joe to know. The cops training will state "treat it like a real gun"

I feel sorry for the poor cops

[Crimson Dynamo]

and are there not black cops too?

[GiRTh]

I would imagine many calls to cops the Joe Public says it may be a fake gun, how the hell is the average joe to know. The cops training will state "treat it like a real gun"

I feel sorry for the poor cops:facepalm:

WOW!!!!!!!

[Northern Monkey]

I can't blame the cops.Those Airsoft guns are made to look real.The cops are trained to shoot to the torso,If they shoot someone with a gun in the leg then they stand a good chance of being shot and killed.You don't wave guns around in America real or fake and if a cop has a gun pointed at you and says "put your hands in the air" or "get on the floor" you f'king do it!You DON'T reach into your pants and pull a weapon out!I am English and i know this.This kid was an American citizen,He should know this,His parents should have told him this and wtf was he doing wandering around a playground in America with a very real looking replica handgun scaring kids?There have been cases of kids getting hold of guns and killing their class mates,The risk is very real for those police.This kid or his parents or both were stupid imo.

[kirklancaster]

I would imagine many calls to cops the Joe Public says it may be a fake gun, how the hell is the average joe to know. The cops training will state "treat it like a real gun"

I feel sorry for the poor cops

If your post is a response to mine LT, then you should re-read mine, because the attending cops were certainly not your 'average Joe' - they were -- suposedly -- mature police officers who had undergone the most rigorous of training in dealing with just such situations as this, and being trained police officers, should have 20/20 vision, therefore should have readily identified that the 'suspect' was a child. What's more, they were armed as serving police officers with tasers as well as firearms, and should have adopted different tactics which involved immobilising the child rather than shooting to kill.

FFS one of the cops was a 10 year veteran.

And I should think - real weapon or not - the fact that there were two mature cops against a 12 year old child gave the cops a monumental advantage in deploying a disabling strategy ie; one covering with levelled firearm while approaching and the other taser-ready.

This is not the first racially motivated murder by cops in American history, and while ever there are apologists supporting these rogue bastards, it won't be the last.

[AnnieK]

To be honest the cops were damned if they do, damned if they don't. Had they not shot him and it had been a real gun and innocent bystanders were killed there would be outcry as to why they hadn't shot him first. As an untrained member of the public it's easy to say he should have been approached and they should have realised it was a fake etc etc etc but we have no real idea as to how the incident unfolded, just reports.

On the flip side if it were my 12 year old with a toy gun shot to death by the police I would be creating holy hell too....

[kirklancaster]

and are there not black cops too?

WTF??? What relevance has this?

[Crimson Dynamo]

WTF??? What relevance has this?

the constant cry that racism played a part

[arista]

To be honest the cops were damned if they do, damned if they don't. Had they not shot him and it had been a real gun and innocent bystanders were killed there would be outcry as to why they hadn't shot him first. As an untrained member of the public it's easy to say he should have been approached and they should have realised it was a fake etc etc etc but we have no real idea as to how the incident unfolded, just reports.

On the flip side if it were my 12 year old with a toy gun shot to death by the police I would be creating holy hell too....


The problem is it looked so real
it did not have any plastic orange on it


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/24/1416845856427/933d4cc6-1b2b-41c7-8f89-353b76f8536d-460x276.jpeg

[GiRTh]

The problem is it looked so real
it did not have any plastic orange on itWell done to the manufacturers for making it look so real but I still think a trained officer with 10 years experience should be able to tell the difference and even if he cant the fact that its obviously a child whos brandishing the gun should indicate that to subdue the threat did not require lethal force.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well done to the manufacturers for making it look so real but I still think a trained officer with 10 years experience should be able to tell the difference and even if he cant the fact that its obviously a child whos brandishing the gun should indicate that the threat did not require lethal force.

you may well think that but as you have no police training, no experience in the field and a pretty obvious agenda

we can conclude that your view is at best, misguided

[GiRTh]

you may well think that but as you have no police training, no experience in the field and a pretty obvious agenda

we can conclude that your view is at best, misguidedI have as much as you and I dont assume what the training will be but I do assume an experience officer would know the the difference and if he didnt then he'd be barely competent at best.

EDIT: Whts my agenda? What are you trying to imply?

[kirklancaster]

To be honest the cops were damned if they do, damned if they don't. Had they not shot him and it had been a real gun and innocent bystanders were killed there would be outcry as to why they hadn't shot him first. As an untrained member of the public it's easy to say he should have been approached and they should have realised it was a fake etc etc etc but we have no real idea as to how the incident unfolded, just reports.

On the flip side if it were my 12 year old with a toy gun shot to death by the police I would be creating holy hell too....

The point is Anniek, that they had no need to shoot this child. They had alternatives, they chose not to employ.

I understand that we do not know the full truth, but there is such a phenomena in America called 'Suicide By Police' - when a person elects to die by drawing a weapon on cops and is 'gunned down' for his troubles. I have watched a few documentaries on this subject and read other material on it, and I have witnessed with my own eyes and ears the normal strategy of the armed cops attending such people. In all cases, the 'would-be-suicide' has actually had a real weapon raised against the cops, who have their weapons trained on him. However, there has still been dialogue, with the cops repeatedly asking the 'subject' to "lower his weapon". The amount of level-headed patience exhibited by the cops has been truly remarkable. In most cases which I have seen, the situation ends with the 'subject' repeatedly refusing to comply and ultimately being 'gunned down' as he wished to be. In two instances the subjects were tasered and immobilised.

This was very clearly an option in this case, and nothing will convince me that the 12 year old child had to be executed in such a manner by two mature, fully trained cops - one a 10 year veteran.

There were alternatives.

[kirklancaster]

the constant cry that racism played a part

I have read and seen enough examples of racially motivated crimes by police over the years to recognise when another one fits the brief.

And this is it.

I suppose you think George Jackson the 'Black Activist' was really 'gunned down' in the outer yard of Soledad Maximum Security prison by reluctant armed guards whilst he was 'trying to escape'?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I have read and seen enough examples of racially motivated crimes by police over the years to recognise when another one fits the brief.

And this is it.

I suppose you think George Jackson the 'Black Activist' was really 'gunned down' in the outer yard of Soledad Maximum Security prison by reluctant armed guards whilst he was 'trying to escape'?

You think that this shooting was because the cop hated black children?

[kirklancaster]

They have a black president?:shrug:

What relevance has that? We have had a long succession of WHITE Prime Ministers but none of them have done feck all for me. :shrug::shrug:

[kirklancaster]

You think that this shooting was because the cop hated black children?

Yes. I believe at least one of these cops gave vent to his own twisted anger and I really believe that there would have been a very different strategy employed and a very different outcome had the child been white.

I don't know if we will ever learn the truth but I have a feeling we will.

Google 'David Oluwale' if you think these 'racist' atrocities are beyond even our cops. Not institutional racism of the force as a whole, but that of individual officers, which is still 'covered up' by their employers though.

I haven't googled - it might not come up - but I have a book on it somewhere. He was a virtual mentally backward black down-and-out who was hounded and abused by Leeds cops. They used to piss on him while he slept rough in shop doorways among other atrocities.

Anyway, LT - not the first time that we have not agreed, but I am convinced this poor yank kid was a victim of at least one of the cops own twisted racism.

[T*]

Horrid. RIP.
I hate how trigger happy the american police are

[lostalex]

Horrid. RIP.
I hate how trigger happy the american police are

i wonder how trigger happy you'd be, if you went out everyday on calls where you don't know if you ever get to see your family again.

Cops are the bravest people on the planet.

especially in a county like America where you know there are guns everywhere.

[kirklancaster]

i wonder how trigger happy you'd be, if you went out everyday on calls where you don't know if you ever get to see your family again.

Cops are the bravest people on the planet.

especially in a county like America where you know there are guns everywhere.

Perhaps it's time then Alex for the USA to take another look at its 'Gun Laws'.

I have watched some pretty sick documentaries on the subject involving fathers teaching their children - some as young as 6 - how to shoot guns. One sicko had a cache of weapons which would equip a platoon of soldiers, and even took his 7 year old daughter hunting deer.

And whilst i agree that American cops are among the bravest people on the planet, such an accolade does not preclude there being sick fecks with their own agenda from being in their ranks.

[Nedusa]

The boy in question was either incredibly stupid or incredibly arrogant but regardless of which I would suggest the world is probably a safer place without him.

Feel sorry for his family and the policeman who was the unlucky enough to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.




.

[GiRTh]

The boy in question was either incredibly stupid or incredibly arrogant but regardless of which I would suggest the world is probably a safer place without him.

Feel sorry for his family and the policeman who was the unlucky enough to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.




.A 12 year old boy is a threat to the world? How do you come to that conclusion?

[Nedusa]

Let's just say some poor drugstore worker or liquor store owner is probably now not going to be robbed and violently gunned down somewhere in a few years time.

That's a whole family now not having to go through the worst ordeal of their lives.

Nuff said.





.

[GiRTh]

Let's just say some poor drugstore worker or liquor store owner is probably now not going to be robbed and violently gunned down somewhere in a few years time.

That's a whole family now not having to go through the worst ordeal of their lives.

Nuff said.





.Do you have any evidence to support this? No but in your head this kid that you know nothing about is gonna rob stores in few years time. Hmmmmmmn. Interesting.

[Niamh.]

Considering how quick they are to use them, you'd think a fully trained officer could be able to tell the difference between a toy and the real thing as well.

Never mind the fact that, if there was a situation, the police officer should have diffused the situation calmly or at worst use non lethal force, not shoot a child and realise his mistake afterwards. At best he is an incompetent officer that murdered a child, at worst he is an incompetent racist officer who racially profiled the child and tackled the situation with extreme prejudice.

Would this officer be so quick to fire if the child was white? I think not.

I hate to say it/think it but I think you're right.

[Niamh.]

I hope that kids parents aren't reading any of this online stuff, they must be devastated enough as it is :(

[Crimson Dynamo]

People still thinking police men want to kill children

Disgusting

Shame on them

[Nedusa]

Let's just say playing with guns at such an early age... Hmmmmn !!! Balance of probabilities suggest that sort of person might just grow up with firearms and learn to use them on a casual basis.

You are right I'm no mind reader but I respectively suggest the writing is on the wall.

Nothing of interest here.




.

[GiRTh]

Let's just say playing with guns at such an early age... Hmmmmn !!! Balance of probabilities suggest that sort of person might just grow up with firearms and learn to use them on a casual basis.

You are right I'm no mind reader but I respectively suggest the writing is on the wall.

Nothing of interest here.




.A poster has mentioned in this thread that in other areas of the USa kids as young as 8 are shooting weapons encouraged by their parents. There was case just a few months ago of the sweet 9 year old girl shooting at a range who accidentally shot and killed her instructor. Do you think that sweet nine year old is gonna grow up to be violent too.?

[Niamh.]

People still thinking police men want to kill children

Disgusting

Shame on them

I'm sure they don't but it seems that they're racially profiling and not being trained properly in dealing with situations like this.

[GiRTh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741034/Lawyer-says-family-girl-Uzi-devastated.html

Here it is.

Look at the sweet kid in her pink shorts. So surrounded by all theses gun at such an early age this girls gonna be a serial killer in a few years?

[Niamh.]

A poster has mentioned in this thread that in other areas of the USa kids as young as 8 are shooting weapons encouraged by their parents. There was case just a few months ago of the sweet 9 year old girl shooting at a range who accidentally shot and killed her instructor. Do you think that sweet nine year old is gonna grow up to be violent too.?

imo it sounds like a normal 12 year old boy thing to be interested in "guns" and playing like that, as I said earlier in the thread my own 10 year old son is always running around with toy guns pretending to shoot at people and cars etc

[Nedusa]

Guns are dangerous in the hands of anyone who is not trained in how to use firearms. Not sayin everyone who handles guns at an early age becomes a gun toting psychopath but if you did turn bad guns would probably figure in your plans.




.

[GiRTh]

Guns are dangerous in the hands of anyone who is not trained in how to use firearms. Not sayin everyone who handles guns at an early age becomes a gun toting psychopath but if you did turn bad guns would probably figure in your plans.




.You haven't explained how the world is a safer place now this 12 year old is dead but this cute little girl in her pink shorts has actually killed someone. Surely the world would be a better place with out her too?

http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag50/Geoff_Taylor/1409820617539_Image_galleryImage_AD144067249Nine_y ear_old__zpsebad2b76.jpg (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Geoff_Taylor/media/1409820617539_Image_galleryImage_AD144067249Nine_y ear_old__zpsebad2b76.jpg.html)

[Ninastar]

If a 15 year old boy in the UK can calmly stab a teacher to death with people watching, there's not telling what a 12 year old boy with a gun could do.

(Yes, I'm aware it was fake, but the police and public did not know that)

[GiRTh]

People still thinking police men want to kill children

Disgusting

Shame on themShame on them eh? But nothing about the cops who thought a child was about to murder them and BTW there have been very very few instances, all over the world, of 12 year olds murdering policemen. If this kid had been for real then he would have been the first I've heard of but if you know of 12 year olds murdering police then tell us all about them. These cops are the ones who should be ashamed.

[lostalex]

If it's all about white racism and white superiority, why don't we see little ASIAN children being shot all the time? funny how the asian community has managed to make themselves immune to this evil white man's evil. how do you figure that happened...?

funny how the asian community, like other immigrant communities before them have managed to fit in, and raise successful children, and not just wallow in self pity like some other communities...

Indians, japanese, chinese all seem to be doing okay. gays and women who have been even been more discriminated against than blacks, hell gays still doesn't even have equal rights yet, but for some reason blacks are always the victims... i wonder why.

Every criminal i've ever met likes to paint himself as a victim.

[Kizzy]

Let's just say playing with guns at such an early age... Hmmmmn !!! Balance of probabilities suggest that sort of person might just grow up with firearms and learn to use them on a casual basis.

You are right I'm no mind reader but I respectively suggest the writing is on the wall.

Nothing of interest here.




.

Have you been in toys are us lately?... the shelves are full of toy guns. Lads for generations have played 'cowboys and indians', had futuristic lazor guns, played with water pistols.
It's entirely normal, more so in America than anywhere, but you are right...nothing of interest in prejudiced opinion.

[Nedusa]

Have you been in toys are us lately?... the shelves are full of toy guns. Lads for generations have played 'cowboys and indians', had futuristic lazor guns, played with water pistols.
It's entirely normal, more so in America than anywhere, but you are right...nothing of interest in prejudiced opinion.

Not sure how you think my opinion is prejudiced, but I agree toy shops are full of toy guns, unfortunately the U.S is awash with real guns and real bullets that actually will kill people.

The gun issue in the US is the real issue here the issue behind all these so called race killings. The fact is the police in the US will pretty much always shoot first and ask questions later exactly because the suspect anybody and everybody could have a concealed firearm.

And this includes young people , old people, black people and white people.

I don't think it's a racist thing with the police more of a survivalist thing.

The real problem is the sheer number of firearms in the US and the ridiculous ease with which people can get access to these dangerous weapons.




.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Nedusa;7390966]Guns are dangerous in the hands of anyone who is not trained in how to use firearms. Not sayin everyone who handles guns at an early age becomes a gun toting psychopath but if you did turn bad guns would probably figure in your plans.

I love your posts Nedusa and usually agree with you, but I think you're wrong here.

All this incident would suggest is; that with rogue cops, guns are sometimes also lethally dangerous in the hands of even those who are trained in how to use firearms.

With these deviants, the cop badge, far from being a 'Medal of Honour', is just a 'licence to kill'.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Nedusa;7391181]Not sure how you think my opinion is prejudiced, but I agree toy shops are full of toy guns, unfortunately the U.S is awash with real guns and real bullets that actually will kill people.

The gun issue in the US is the real issue here the issue behind all these so called race killings.

Absolutely agree.

The fact is the police in the US will pretty much always shoot first and ask questions later exactly because the suspect anybody and everybody could have a concealed firearm.

This maybe a fact but that does not make it an acceptable practice by public guardians who have sworn to 'serve and protect'. There is a Criminal Justice System in place and a policy called due process of law.

And this includes young people , old people, black people and white people.
I don't think it's a racist thing with the police more of a survivalist thing.

I am not proposing that 'racism' is institutionally rooted in the police service in America, but the evidence that individual officers or even groups of officers are racist, is overwhelming. Racism of any description is unacceptable, but when it comes to anyone in a position of authority, then such people should be paragons and any racism in such people should be rooted out and the racists given long term jail sentences.

The real problem is the sheer number of firearms in the US and the ridiculous ease with which people can get access to these dangerous weapons.


I wholeheartedly agree Nedusa. 1,000%.

[arista]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/24/1416845856427/933d4cc6-1b2b-41c7-8f89-353b76f8536d-460x276.jpeg
This looked real although as toy

Police told him to drop it


He did not.



In this Case the Police were just doing their job

[Niamh.]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/24/1416845856427/933d4cc6-1b2b-41c7-8f89-353b76f8536d-460x276.jpeg
This looked real although as toy

Police told him to drop it


He did not.



In this Case the Police were just doing their job

My son has guns that look like that :shrug: I can't believe there was no other alternative then to shoot this child dead

[arista]

You have a choice drop you gun
or be shot

That child did the wrong thing , sadly


Its USA Normal Police work

[Niamh.]

You have a choice drop you gun
or be shot

That child did the wrong thing , sadly


Its USA Normal Police work

But he's a child, maybe he panicked? The Police should be trained better to deal with this sort of thing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/cleveland-shot-boy/19471925/

this is the call

[Niamh.]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/cleveland-shot-boy/19471925/

this is the call

The caller didn't sound overly concerned or scared though tbf and again, i know I keep repeating myself but a 12 year old playing with a toy gun like that caller described sounds about normal for a kid his age :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

The caller didn't sound overly concerned or scared though tbf and again, i know I keep repeating myself but a 12 year old playing with a toy gun like that caller described sounds about normal for a kid his age :shrug:

At no time did anyone say he was 12. It was a man and then perhaps a juvenile the caller said.

At no time did the caller (who called the cops mind) say - oh its just kids playing.

This was a gun that looked like a real firearm and not a toy

[Niamh.]

At no time did anyone say he was 12. It was a man and then perhaps a juvenile the caller said.

At no time did the caller (who called the cops mind) say - oh its just kids playing.

This was a gun that looked like a real firearm and not a toy

I've seen the picture of the boy, he looks really young, that article also states that he never pointed the gun at the officers, poor kid was probably trying to show them it wasn't a real gun.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I've seen the picture of the boy, he looks really young, that article also states that he never pointed the gun at the officers, poor kid was probably trying to show them it wasn't a real gun.

You saw probably an old pic of the boy, he may have looked different to the cops. When the cops shouted down he made a move for the gun, cops do not wait until the gun is pointing at them otherwise they would be not many cops left

[Niamh.]

You saw probably an old pic of the boy, he may have looked different to the cops. When the cops shouted down he made a move for the gun, cops do not wait until the gun is pointing at them otherwise they would be not many cops left

Well, if cops in America have a shoot to kill policy on any person carrying a gun that looks remotely like a real gun no matter what their age then maybe they should ban fake guns in America cos that is crazy.

And how do you know that picture is old, wow I don't know why you can't even entertain the possibility that the police might have made a bad call here and as a result a child is dead

[GiRTh]

You saw probably an old pic of the boy, he may have looked different to the cops. When the cops shouted down he made a move for the gun, cops do not wait until the gun is pointing at them otherwise they would be not many cops left:facepalm:

There are always so many assumptions in your posts. Why dont you stick to what we know rather than telling us what you probably think may have happened.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, if cops in America have a shoot to kill policy on any person carrying a gun that looks remotely like a real gun no matter what their age then maybe they should ban fake guns in America cos that is crazy.

And how do you know that picture is old, wow I don't know why you can't even entertain the possibility that the police might have made a bad call here and as a result a child is dead

It was not a toy gun it was a replica, that means unless you hold it and analyse it it looks real.

The cop thought it was real and thought he was about to be shot. End of story.


Dont play with replica guns in public places in America

[GiRTh]

It was not a toy gun it was a replica, that means unless you hold it and analyse it it looks real.

The cop thought it was real and thought he was about to be shot. End of story.


Dont play with replica guns in public places in AmericaThought he was about to be shot by a child? Thats some fine police work.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Thought he was about to be shot by a child? Thats some fine police work.

a youth and you dont die any different depending on who shot you

[Crimson Dynamo]

Did you know the colour of the officer who shot the boy?

[GiRTh]

a youth and you dont die any different depending on who shot you
Not even a teenager. Thats some threat.

[GiRTh]

Did you know the colour of the officer who shot the boy?Why is that relevant?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake.

[GiRTh]

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake.But it was clearly stated in the call that the gun might be a fake. That sounds like incompetence to me but no doubt that is justification to you.

[GiRTh]

http://www.ask.com/health/average-height-12-year-old-child-4a0d104f73bb0c07

According to Ask.com the average height for a 12 year old boy is 58-62 inches. Barely five foot. The officer must have been ****ting himself.

EDIT - and at that age girls are usually taller than boys./ Would he have been scared if it was girl? Its an absolute joke to say that officer was scared.

[Liam-]

http://www.ask.com/health/average-height-12-year-old-child-4a0d104f73bb0c07

According to Ask.com the average height for a 12 year old boy is 58-62 inches. Barely five foot. The officer must have been ****ting himself.

Yes he must have been, the kid had a gun, that the officer thought was real.. it's not the boy that was dangerous, but add the gun into the mix, then he is dangerous.

[Tom4784]

Rationalising the murder of a child? Some people have no shame.

[GiRTh]

Yes he must have been, the kid had a gun, that the officer thought was real.. it's not the boy that was dangerous, but add the gun into the mix, then he is dangerous.At that age girls are usually taller than boys. Would he have been scared if it was girl? Its an absolute joke to say that officer was scared.

[Liam-]

At that age girls are usually taller than boys. Would he have been scared if it was girl? Its an absolute joke to say that officer was scared.

You seem to be missing the point.. if it was the kid on his own, no the officer or anybody wouldn't have been scared.. but the kid had a - what was thought to be a real - gun, that's what added the danger, so the height of the child is completely irrelevant.

[arista]

Rationalising the murder of a child? Some people have no shame.


Dezzy America
is like that

[GiRTh]

You seem to be missing the point.. if it was the kid on his own, no the officer or anybody wouldn't have been scared.. but the kid had - what was thought to be - a real gun, that's what added the danger, so the height of the child is completely irrelevant.It matters that the person was a child. I find it hard to believe that a trained Police officer was afraid of a child to the extent that he felt he had to shoot them. I dont find it believable.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.ask.com/health/average-height-12-year-old-child-4a0d104f73bb0c07

According to Ask.com the average height for a 12 year old boy is 58-62 inches. Barely five foot. The officer must have been ****ting himself.

EDIT - and at that age girls are usually taller than boys./ Would he have been scared if it was girl? Its an absolute joke to say that officer was scared.

averages are made from many different heights



reaching...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Rationalising the murder of a child? Some people have no shame.

So the officer should have just been shot by the child because he was just a child about to shoot him?



No, naughty cops, just shoot adults who want to kill you, and only male adults

[Liam-]

It matters that the person was a child. I find it hard to believe that a trained Police officer was afraid of a child to the extent that he felt he had to shoot them. I dont find it believable.

A child with a gun, i doubt the cop woke up in the morning and decided to go out and slaughter a child for the hell of it.

He had a job to do, police officers are trained to asses situations and assess how dangerous the person in question is, at this point he saw someone waving a gun around, it doesn't make a difference if it is a child or not, so he reacted in the way that they are trained to do.

I can't imagine this cop being happy to feel the need to kill a child, but under his oath to serve and protect, that is what he felt he needed to do and now he has to live the rest of his life knowing that he killed a child who was idiotically branding a fake gun, made to look like a real one, because he was doing as he was trained to do.

[arista]

But he's a child, maybe he panicked? The Police should be trained better to deal with this sort of thing.



Yes
but sadly children with guns
have killed Police
in America

[GiRTh]

averages are made from many different heights



reaching...
You accuse me of reaching with all your 'probably' and 'maybe'? Thats laughable.

The gun was not real, the officer was warned but for some reason they are now saying he wasnt, the CHILD was not even a teenager.

[Tom4784]

At the end of the day, police officers like the one in this story are using guns as a first resort when they should only be used in life or death situations. They're firing first and asking questions later which is leading to a lot of innocent lives being lost.

If this child murderer was even somewhat competent at his job he would have assessed the situation, not go in guns blazing. Having restraint in this situation wouldn't have led to the officer having a child's blood on their hands. If he can't remain calm and thus calm down a situation without having to kill someone then he shouldn't be a police officer in the first place.

[GiRTh]

A child with a gun, i doubt the cop woke up in the morning and decided to go out and slaughter a child for the hell of it.

He had a job to do, police officers are trained to asses situations and assess how dangerous the person in question is, at this point he saw someone waving a gun around, it doesn't make a difference if it is a child or not, so he reacted in the way that they are trained to do.

I can't imagine this cop being happy to feel the need to kill a child, but under his oath to serve and protect, that is what he felt he needed to do and now he has to live the rest of his life knowing that he killed a child who was idiotically branding a fake gun, made to look like a real one, because he was doing as he was trained to do.You rightly say cops are supposed to assess a threat but there are very few cases of children murdering police officers. Look all around the world, it just doesn't happen. The officer failed to correctly assess the threat.

[Liam-]

You rightly say cops are supposed to assess a threat but there are very few cases of children murdering police officers. Look all around the world, it just doesn't happen. The officer failed to correctly assess the threat.

But there are many cases of children killing in general.. children getting into gangs and getting themselves into trouble.

Just because the person involved was a child, does not make them any less dangerous than anyone else, a child with a gun, is just as dangerous as a grown up with a gun.

[GiRTh]

But there are many cases of children killing in general.. children getting into gangs and getting themselves into trouble.

Just because the person involved was a child, does not make them any less dangerous than anyone else, a child with a gun, is just as dangerous as a grown up with a gun.I beg to differ. It is truly a sorry state of affairs when a trained police officer sees a child as just as much of a threat as an adult. To say that an officer had to shoot a child would take extraordinary set of circumstances for me but I suppose we disagree on that.

[Liam-]

I beg to differ. It is truly a sorry state of affairs when a trained police officer sees a child as just as much of a threat as an adult. To say that an officer had to shoot a child would take extraordinary set of circumstances for me but I suppose we disagree on that.

Okay then so lets look at it like this.. If a man of say 30 was waving a gun around and aiming it at people, but he was only the size of a 12 year old child, so hence looked like a child.. would the officer at the scene not have to take taught action against him because he was the size of a child so wasn't necessarily intimidating?

[GiRTh]

Okay then so lets look at it like this.. If a man of say 30 was waving a gun around and aiming it at people, but he was only the size of a 12 year old child, so hence looked like a child.. would the officer at the scene not have to take taught action against him because he was the size of a child so wasn't necessarily intimidating?I would expect the officer to correctly assess the threat.

[Liam-]

I would expect the officer to correctly assess the threat.

Like he did with the child, they see a gun being branded in public and being aimed at people around them, they look at the gun, not the person holding it, because at that moment, it doesn't matter who's holding it because the danger would be the same no matter what.

[Tom4784]

Like he did with the child, they see a gun being branded in public and being aimed at people around them, they look at the gun, not the person holding it, because at that moment, it doesn't matter who's holding it because the danger would be the same no matter what.

I wouldn't say that he assessed the situation correctly if a child is dead over a toy gun.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wouldn't say that he assessed the situation correctly if a child is dead over a toy gun.

how many times?

It was not a toy gun

:rolleyes:

[Tom4784]

how many times?

It was not a toy gun

:rolleyes:

If that's what you're focusing on here then I pity you, I honestly do.

[Niamh.]

And I still don't get why he didn't use a tazor instead. I just read this on another article


"On social media, commentators noted the irony of police shooting a boy with a replica gun in Ohio -- one of several US states where openly carrying a firearm is legal."

[GiRTh]

And I still don't get why he didn't use a tazor instead. I just read this on another article


"On social media, commentators noted the irony of police shooting a boy with a replica gun in Ohio -- one of several US states where openly carrying a firearm is legal."
Didnt know Ohio is an open carry state which means that if he'd been some hairy arsed 30 year old man with a permit for his gun then he would be free to openly show his firearm in public. Just amazing.,

[GiRTh]

If that's what you're focusing on here then I pity you, I honestly do.
X2

[Crimson Dynamo]

If that's what you're focusing on here then I pity you, I honestly do.

if you cannot see the distinction then I would suggest you are just trolling this thread

[Niamh.]

Didnt know Ohio is an open carry state which means that if he'd been some hairy arsed 30 year old man with a permit for his gun then he would be free to openly show his firearm in public. Just amazing.,

It's complete madness.

[Crimson Dynamo]

And I still don't get why he didn't use a tazor instead. I just read this on another article


"On social media, commentators noted the irony of police shooting a boy with a replica gun in Ohio -- one of several US states where openly carrying a firearm is legal."

if it was a call to an armed suspect then you leave the tazer in the car. They respond to guns with guns.

remember they were told it was an armed man in park pointing a gun around, that is wall they got.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's complete madness.

With all the unrest and looting going on in the other area I imagine quite a few residents are happy to have a firearm to protect their families and property

[Niamh.]

if it was a call to an armed suspect then you leave the tazer in the car. They respond to guns with guns.

remember they were told it was an armed man in park pointing a gun around, that is wall they got.

how do you know what they were told? According to the 911 call we heard, the operator was given the information that it was probably a fake gun and probably a juvenile.

[Crimson Dynamo]

how do you know what they were told? According to the 911 call we heard, the operator was given the information that it was probably a fake gun and probably a juvenile.

No, I read earlier, i think the NYT, that they were not told this information.

[Niamh.]

No, I read earlier, i think the NYT, that they were not told this information.

This article?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/us/boy-12-dies-after-being-shot-by-cleveland-police-officer.html?_r=0

Doesn't say that they weren't informed that it may fake/he may be a juvenile in that, it says they were investigating what information was relayed and that's it. This is a good quote from that article though :

“The police have to address these things in the proper context,” he said. “This is a 12-year-old boy. This is not a grown man. I’d think you would handle situations with children differently than you would with an adult. They don’t fully understand everything that is going on.”

[Crimson Dynamo]

This article?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/us/boy-12-dies-after-being-shot-by-cleveland-police-officer.html?_r=0

Doesn't say that they weren't informed that it may fake/he may be a juvenile in that, it says they were investigating what information was relayed and that's it. This is a good quote from that article though :

“The police have to address these things in the proper context,” he said. “This is a 12-year-old boy. This is not a grown man. I’d think you would handle situations with children differently than you would with an adult. They don’t fully understand everything that is going on.”

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake. He said an officer taking a Taser out when they believe there could be a person with a gun puts the officer at risk, the Plain Dealer reported.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/cleveland-shot-boy/19471925/

[Ninastar]

A child with a gun, i doubt the cop woke up in the morning and decided to go out and slaughter a child for the hell of it.

He had a job to do, police officers are trained to asses situations and assess how dangerous the person in question is, at this point he saw someone waving a gun around, it doesn't make a difference if it is a child or not, so he reacted in the way that they are trained to do.

I can't imagine this cop being happy to feel the need to kill a child, but under his oath to serve and protect, that is what he felt he needed to do and now he has to live the rest of his life knowing that he killed a child who was idiotically branding a fake gun, made to look like a real one, because he was doing as he was trained to do.

Well said...

I think people often forget how dangerous America can be sometimes. It wasn't too long ago that there was those cases of people literally eating people alive in public. A police officer was even attacked in one of those events.

I'm not comparing those events, but I'm just using it as an example to show what kind of craziness goes on in America.

I definitely agree with those saying the gun laws are crazy... It's true. They need to have a hell of a lot stricter policies put in place.

[Niamh.]

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake. He said an officer taking a Taser out when they believe there could be a person with a gun puts the officer at risk, the Plain Dealer reported.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/cleveland-shot-boy/19471925/

Ok so he says they weren't told that the gun may be fake, it doesn't say anything about whether or not they were told he was or may be a juvenile though and what you said was "remember they were told it was an armed man in park pointing a gun around, that is wall they got" The fact that he didn't say they weren't told he may be a juvenile but did say it about the gun tells me that maybe they were given this information :think:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ok so he says they weren't told that the gun may be fake, it doesn't say anything about whether or not they were told he was or may be a juvenile though and what you said was "remember they were told it was an armed man in park pointing a gun around, that is wall they got" The fact that he didn't say they weren't told he may be a juvenile but did say it about the gun tells me that maybe they were given this information :think:


to be fair the call came in from an old man across the street so i would imagine the call to the patrol was vague and loaded with "proceed with caution"


I would imagine the cops have had many "he is a juvenile" calls only to be met with a 240 pound 6 foot 2 adult

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://americangunfacts.com/

interesting graphic

[Niamh.]

to be fair the call came in from an old man across the street so i would imagine the call to the patrol was vague and loaded with "proceed with caution"


I would imagine the cops have had many "he is a juvenile" calls only to be met with a 240 pound 6 foot 2 adult

Doesn't sound much like they proceeded with caution to me, not for that poor kid anyway. Anyhow, we're going round in circles now. RIP to that poor child and I hope his parents get some justice for him.

[Tom4784]

if you cannot see the distinction then I would suggest you are just trolling this thread

You're focusing on pedantic and, ultimately, irrelevant things because you can't defend that child killer by any other means. Like I said before, If this murderer was competent at his job then there would have been no need for violence. Instead of calming the situation down he aggravated it. A child is dead by his hand because he failed to do his job properly and assess the situation by acting appropriately. This officer saw this black boy with his TOY gun and he racially profiled him and instead of clarifying the situation he went in and shot this kid twice.

His actions are indefensible. If you're going to accuse me of trolling then I'm going to say this. Would you be defending this man if he killed a white child?

[Ammi]

..it seems odd that the old guy who made the call and was across the street could have assessed that the gun could have been a fake but a trained police officer couldn't...

[Niamh.]

..it seems odd that the old guy who made the call and was across the street could have assessed that the gun could have been a fake but a trained police officer couldn't...


Mm very good point, I think I read somewhere that the cop was a rookie, I wonder would a more seasoned cop have been so quick to pull the trigger?

[letmein]

Not to mention how often we hear about kids finding their parents guns. We are constantly being told by the liberal media how often kids take their parents guns, so it's not a stretch to believe a 12 y/o might have a real gun.

The "liberal media"? Oh, gawd. :joker:

[letmein]

Yes
but sadly children with guns
have killed Police
in America

You live in the US?

[letmein]

Let's just say some poor drugstore worker or liquor store owner is probably now not going to be robbed and violently gunned down somewhere in a few years time.

That's a whole family now not having to go through the worst ordeal of their lives.

Nuff said.





.

There's a lot of sociopathy found in your comments.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You're focusing on pedantic and, ultimately, irrelevant things because you can't defend that child killer by any other means. Like I said before, If this murderer was competent at his job then there would have been no need for violence. Instead of calming the situation down he aggravated it. A child is dead by his hand because he failed to do his job properly and assess the situation by acting appropriately. This officer saw this black boy with his TOY gun and he racially profiled him and instead of clarifying the situation he went in and shot this kid twice.

His actions are indefensible. If you're going to accuse me of trolling then I'm going to say this. Would you be defending this man if he killed a white child?

The colour of the youth has no bearing

[Ammi]

Mm very good point, I think I read somewhere that the cop was a rookie, I wonder would a more seasoned cop have been so quick to pull the trigger?

...I mean, surely he would have assessed that this was a very young person, even if he wouldn't know the exact age ...and if it was a very young person that there was a chance that the gun wasn't real or wasn't loaded and he was just messing around with it...

[Crimson Dynamo]

...I mean, surely he would have assessed that this was a very young person, even if he wouldn't know the exact age ...and if it was a very young person that there was a chance that the gun wasn't real or wasn't loaded and he was just messing around with it...

not in rough areas of america

its not the uk


He shouted numerous times to get down, he saw the youth pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, he shouted down again and he went for the gun

what was the cop to do?

it looked a real gun, it was not marked, as it should have been, as a replica

the youth did not do as the police asked, he went for the weapon

what could the cop do, wait for the first bullet?

[GiRTh]

not in rough areas of america

its not the uk


He shouted numerous times to get down, he saw the youth pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, he shouted down again and he went for the gun

what was the cop to do?

it looked a real gun, it was not marked, as it should have been, as a replica

the youth did not do as the police asked, he went for the weapon

what could the cop do, wait for the first bullet?It's amazing the way you'e played the scenario out in your head and the kid never lives and the cop is always justified in shooting him.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's amazing the way you'e played the scenario out in your head and the kid never lives and the cop is always justified in shooting him.

ideal worlds do not exist

cops are nervous in trigger happy USA, replica guns look like real guns, that is why they are replicas

hindsight is not for sale

[GiRTh]

ideal worlds do not exist

cops are nervous in trigger happy USA, replica guns look like real guns, that is why they are replicas

hindsight is not for saleCops are nervous of children carrying fake guns in open carry states? Doesnt look like they are being properly trained. I'd be more nervous of adults.

[Ammi]

not in rough areas of america

its not the uk


He shouted numerous times to get down, he saw the youth pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, he shouted down again and he went for the gun

what was the cop to do?

it looked a real gun, it was not marked, as it should have been, as a replica

the youth did not do as the police asked, he went for the weapon

what could the cop do, wait for the first bullet?

..maybe approach the situation with more caution and care in the first place to avoid loss of life..?..I understand what you're saying that he didn't know whether the gun was real and that a bullet would still kill whether it was being fired by a child or by an adult but there is also the point of view of the boy, he also had a gun pointed at him while a police officer was shouting at him and he had absolutely no doubts or uncertainties that, that gun was real and would be fired and so he maybe panicked..?...he was a child and must have been terrified...I don't think that approaching him/shouting at him and armed was how this should have been approached....

[Crimson Dynamo]

..maybe approach the situation with more caution and care in the first place to avoid loss of life..?..I understand what you're saying that he didn't know whether the gun was real and that a bullet would still kill whether it was being fired by a child or by an adult but there is also the point of view of the boy, he also had a gun pointed at him while a police officer was shouting at him and he had absolutely no doubts or uncertainties that, that gun was real and would be fired and so he maybe panicked..?...he was a child and must have been terrified...I don't think that approaching him/shouting at him and armed was how this should have been approached....

as i said hindsight is in short supply in the police force

[Ammi]

as i said hindsight is in short supply in the police force

..but that isn't a reason though is it...these are law enforcement officers, they're there to uphold the law and keep the peace, they're not executioners with a 'can't take any chances/let's just shoot them all and think about it later' thing going on...it's been said in a lot of articles that the young boy's hand went down to his belt where the fake gun was so he didn't have it in his hand at the time that the police officer was shouting at him, which is an indication that the officer's method of 'handling' and containing the situation was all wrong, completely wrong and possibly contributed to escalating something that should never have happened caused this child to lose his life... and now a young child is dead, parents have lost their child..if that was you or I and one of our children, would we indeed be questioning that, that officer did not assess that situation well...

[kirklancaster]

..but that isn't a reason though is it...these are law enforcement officers, they're there to uphold the law and keep the peace, they're not executioners with a 'can't take any chances/let's just shoot them all and think about it later' thing going on...it's been said in a lot of articles that the young boy's hand went down to his belt where the fake gun was so he didn't have it in his hand at the time that the police officer was shouting at him, which is an indication that the officer's method of 'handling' and containing the situation was all wrong, completely wrong and possibly contributed to escalating something that should never have happened caused this child to lose his life... and now a young child is dead, parents have lost their child..if that was you or I and one of our children, would we indeed be questioning that, that officer did not assess that situation well...

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Superbly argued Ammi and all valid.

[Crimson Dynamo]

..but that isn't a reason though is it...these are law enforcement officers, they're there to uphold the law and keep the peace, they're not executioners with a 'can't take any chances/let's just shoot them all and think about it later' thing going on...it's been said in a lot of articles that the young boy's hand went down to his belt where the fake gun was so he didn't have it in his hand at the time that the police officer was shouting at him, which is an indication that the officer's method of 'handling' and containing the situation was all wrong, completely wrong and possibly contributed to escalating something that should never have happened caused this child to lose his life... and now a young child is dead, parents have lost their child..if that was you or I and one of our children, would we indeed be questioning that, that officer did not assess that situation well...

What should the officer have done when the youth went for the gun and ignored his command?

[Ammi]

What should the officer have done when the youth went for the gun and ignored his command?

...is it not more, what should the police officer have done to assess and de-escalate a situation involving a child so as not frighten/panic him by shouting and aiming his gun at him....and maybe that would have resulted in no loss of life ....and parents whose son was still with them....

[Josy]

What should the officer have done when the youth went for the gun and ignored his command?

Used a taser or if he felt the need to shoot then NOT shoot to kill, especially a child.

[Tom4784]

The colour of the youth has no bearing

And neither is the inane debate on whether the gun was a toy or not. Like I've said before, the situation would have been cleared up and wouldn't have escalated if the Officer handled the situation better, now he's a child killer and should face the consequences for his actions.

[Ammi]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-shows-cleveland-cop-shoot-12-year-old-tamir-rice-n256656

...he was shot within seconds/his body falls, in fact almost before the police car came to a halt...and when they arrived, he didn't have the fake gun in his hands but they approached and stopped right in front of him in a 'confrontational' way, rather than with 'caution' and more from a distance and then attempt to approach him and talk to him...there doesn't appear to be any attempt at 'law and order' ..also, from the distance they stopped and assuming that they have 20/20 vision as they carry firearms...could they not see that this was a very young person ...

[Kizzy]

That's disturbing... he left the gun on the table and yet they screech up and shoot him at almost point blank range?
It looks more like a GTA hit :(

[Crimson Dynamo]

Used a taser or if he felt the need to shoot then NOT shoot to kill, especially a child.

this was covered earlier in the thread

[Crimson Dynamo]

so from the video

The youth had his hood up and cap on so it would have been hard to assess age

the cops arrived quick and he made a move for the gun which they thought real


the cops instinctively shot him fearing for his own life



Its a tragic event that could have played out many ways, especially with hindsight.

[Nedusa]

As I have said earlier in this thread and the other related thread these incidents will continue to happen in the US due to the simple fact that the place is awash with guns and the Police shoot first and ask questions later out of a sense of survival.

The US authorities cannot realistically prosecute or indict these Police officers no matter how absurd the circumstances of their actions ie shooting an innocent youngster black or white or an elderly person or even a disabled person. Because the authorities know if they start sending Police officers to prison where they will most certainly struggle to survive they will lose most of their law enforcement resources.

And then you will have urban Anarchy with the National Guard coming in and trying to police these problem areas with a massive increase in the loss of life.

Even if the authorities try and set the procedures for officers to use their guns , in the heat of the moment untrained or inexperienced officers will always shoot first if they feel threatened.

I do not think this is a racist problem as unpalatable as it sounds a higher proportion blacks in the US are in the category where they confront police than their non black counterparts.

So these incidents of killing unarmed youngsters are more likely to be black youngsters than white youngsters. But that's another debate.

I honestly think the Gun lobby in the US needs to be tackled along with the whole issue of uncontrolled gun ownership. Only when you have taken half a BILLION guns off the streets in the US we might have a chance to address these unfortunate shootings.




.

[Niamh.]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-shows-cleveland-cop-shoot-12-year-old-tamir-rice-n256656

...he was shot within seconds/his body falls, in fact almost before the police car came to a halt...and when they arrived, he didn't have the fake gun in his hands but they approached and stopped right in front of him in a 'confrontational' way, rather than with 'caution' and more from a distance and then attempt to approach him and talk to him...there doesn't appear to be any attempt at 'law and order' ..also, from the distance they stopped and assuming that they have 20/20 vision as they carry firearms...could they not see that this was a very young person ...

omg that's awful, they literally just pulled up and shot him

[Niamh.]

so from the video

The youth had his hood up and cap on so it would have been hard to assess age

the cops arrived quick and he made a move for the gun which they thought real


the cops instinctively shot him fearing for his own life



Its a tragic event that could have played out many ways, especially with hindsight.

wow I actually can't believe you're still defending the police after watching that video. There was no hanging back and assessing the situation before opening fire, no trying to negotiate with him or anything. There was no people around him so it wouldn't have been risking lives to try and sort the situation out without a dead body

[Crimson Dynamo]

wow I actually can't believe you're still defending the police after watching that video. There was no hanging back and assessing the situation before opening fire, no trying to negotiate with him or anything. There was no people around him so it wouldn't have been risking lives to try and sort the situation out without a dead body

You only see a section of the incident. You dont see the cop car before it comes into the scene or what was shouted etc

[arista]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-shows-cleveland-cop-shoot-12-year-old-tamir-rice-n256656

...he was shot within seconds/his body falls, in fact almost before the police car came to a halt...and when they arrived, he didn't have the fake gun in his hands but they approached and stopped right in front of him in a 'confrontational' way, rather than with 'caution' and more from a distance and then attempt to approach him and talk to him...there doesn't appear to be any attempt at 'law and order' ..also, from the distance they stopped and assuming that they have 20/20 vision as they carry firearms...could they not see that this was a very young person ...


Yes but in America
Police are like that
if the know someone has a Gun

[Kizzy]

Then what's the use of having a justice system if the police are judge, jury and executioner?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Actually Neem this thread title is wrong and misleading and should really be changed

[Niamh.]

Actually Neem this thread title is wrong and misleading and should really be changed

It's very accurate

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's very accurate

:nono:

No it is not, he was not shot dead for carrying a fake gun and you know that


The Policemen had no idea the gun was fake so it is wrong.

[Niamh.]

:nono:

No it is not, he was not shot dead for carrying a fake gun and you know that


The Policemen had no idea the gun was fake so it is wrong.

How about I change it to "12 year old boy shot dead by trigger happy Policeman who was in too much of a gung ho rush to diffuse the situation in a dead-bodyless manner" ? :think:

[Crimson Dynamo]

How about I change it to "12 year old boy shot dead by trigger happy Policeman who was in too much of a gung ho rush to diffuse the situation in a dead-bodyless manner" ? :think:

or how about why was a 12 year old boy not in school and wandering around a park with a replica gun made to look like a real gun to anyone but an expert who could examine it?

[Niamh.]

or how about why was a 12 year old boy not in school and wandering around a park with a replica gun made to look like a real gun to anyone but an expert who could examine it?

presumably because it was a Saturday :think:

[Crimson Dynamo]

presumably because it was a Saturday :think:

Recordings of radio communications reveal a police officer at the scene describing Tamir Rice as aged "maybe 20" after the shooting.

A separate recording appears to confirm the officers were not told the gun might be fake.

In a recording immediately after the incident, a police officer is heard saying: "Shots fired, male down, black male, maybe 20."

A recording of the call from the operator to police officers as they were dispatched to the scene appears to confirm that there was no mention of a replica gun.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30214859

A replica gun is a replica of a real gun

a fake gun could be a potato gun or a cap gun. A replica gun is a whole different ball game.

12 year old Boy shot dead by police was brandishing a modified replica gun

[Niamh.]

The boy was 12, the gun was fake, the title is accurate. No matter what the Police Officers were told, I watched the video they handled that badly whether they thought the boy was an adult or not

[Crimson Dynamo]

The boy was 12, the gun was fake, the title is accurate. No matter what the Police Officers were told, I watched the video they handled that badly whether they thought the boy was an adult or not

You are saying he was killed for carrying a fake gun and that is rubbish


He was shot for making a move to pull a gun that the policeman thought was real and unless the officer took the gun in his hand and looked at it for a few minutes there is no way at all he could have known it was not real. At the time of the incident the fact the gun was a replica is a moot point.



The thread title is inaccurate, prejudiced and sensationalist

[Niamh.]

The thread title is staying and is accurate.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The thread title is staying and is accurate.

Neem what are you on about it is patently not accurate?



You are suggesting the boy was killed because he had a "fake gun"?

[Niamh.]

Neem what are you on about it is patently not accurate?



You are suggesting the boy was killed because he had a "fake gun"?

The gun he was carrying was fake, if he hadn't been carrying that fake gun then he wouldn't have been killed.....so yes

[GiRTh]

Neem what are you on about it is patently not accurate?



You are suggesting the boy was killed because he had a "fake gun"?You're arguing about the thread title now? Reaching

The Vid is pretty damning the cops opened up with no questions asked. Two of them couldnt disarm an child with a fake gun, The more you argue that the cops thoght he was twenty the more you make them look incompetent. They incorrectly thought the gun was real, they incorrectly thought the kid was twenty they dont seem to have particularly good judgment.

[GiRTh]

You only see a section of the incident. You dont see the cop car before it comes into the scene or what was shouted etcBut you were ready to make all kind of conclusions based n that vid but now you're not sure. :facepalm:

I also dont see how that would change the situation perhaps you should elaborate on yet another of your posts that doesnt seem to make sense. It seems to be yet more if's, buts and maybes on your part. What could the kid have shouted for the cops to roll up shoot him to death within two seconds of arriving at the scene?

[GiRTh]

As I have said earlier in this thread and the other related thread these incidents will continue to happen in the US due to the simple fact that the place is awash with guns and the Police shoot first and ask questions later out of a sense of survival.

The US authorities cannot realistically prosecute or indict these Police officers no matter how absurd the circumstances of their actions ie shooting an innocent youngster black or white or an elderly person or even a disabled person. Because the authorities know if they start sending Police officers to prison where they will most certainly struggle to survive they will lose most of their law enforcement resources.

And then you will have urban Anarchy with the National Guard coming in and trying to police these problem areas with a massive increase in the loss of life.

Even if the authorities try and set the procedures for officers to use their guns , in the heat of the moment untrained or inexperienced officers will always shoot first if they feel threatened.

I do not think this is a racist problem as unpalatable as it sounds a higher proportion blacks in the US are in the category where they confront police than their non black counterparts.

So these incidents of killing unarmed youngsters are more likely to be black youngsters than white youngsters. But that's another debate.

I honestly think the Gun lobby in the US needs to be tackled along with the whole issue of uncontrolled gun ownership. Only when you have taken half a BILLION guns off the streets in the US we might have a chance to address these unfortunate shootings.




.WHAT?

Where did you get that information from?

WE423_w8a9Q

I could post twenty or thirty vids like and its hardy ever black people mouthing off at the cops. IF they did they'd be shot in the street and you'd see nothing wrong. The guy at the end spells it out perfectly.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/11/23/ea875dc3-555d-4bb6-b40c-d1dd980edea4/thumbnail/620x350/2bb8ccee73caf41214c2f12b6ee3ff8d/airsoft.jpg

[Crimson Dynamo]

Donnie Pastard a local activist with the local anticrime group, Black on Black, told WOIO he doesn't think there was racial malice involved, but that doesn't excuse what happened.

"I do not think these police officers left home to kill a black child. But I do think there's training involved there. There's the race factor involved. This is something we gonna have to talk about, whether we like it or not," said Pastard.

A 14-year-old who was at the scene on Saturday told WOIO they warned Rice about playing with fake guns on the playground.

"It could have been prevented by him going home," he said. "I wouldn't want my life to end so young. Probably had a bright future ahead of him."

On Sunday, state Rep. Alicia Reece, of Cincinnati, announced plans to introduce new legislation requiring that all BB guns, air rifles, and Airsoft guns sold in Ohio be brightly colored or have prominent florescent strips, so there is no confusion. According to federal law, toy and replica guns must have an orange tip on the barrel.

For Deputy Chief Tomba, there could have been a simpler solution to the problem.

"When an officer gives a command, we expect it to be followed," said Tomba.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lawyer-says-rookie-cleveland-cop-shot-killed-12-year-old-tamir-rice-with-fake-gun/

[arista]

http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/11/23/ea875dc3-555d-4bb6-b40c-d1dd980edea4/thumbnail/620x350/2bb8ccee73caf41214c2f12b6ee3ff8d/airsoft.jpg


Yes they had to shoot
it looked so real

the child had a chance to drop it

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes they had to shoot
it looked so real

the child had a chance to drop it

If it was a real perp he would have dropped down on ground but the boy probably thought drop down meant drop weapon so he went for it. The cops thought he was 20 as he was big and had hood up in that horrible fashion

the lesson is do not play with replica guns in the street or this can happen

[arista]

If it was a real perp he would have dropped down on ground but the boy probably thought drop down meant drop weapon so he went for it. The cops thought he was 20 as he was big and had hood up in that horrible fashion

the lesson is do not play with replica guns in the street or this can happen



Very Well Put LT

[GiRTh]

If it was a real perp he would have dropped down on ground but the boy probably thought drop down meant drop weapon so he went for it. The cops thought he was 20 as he was big and had hood up in that horrible fashion

the lesson is do not play with replica guns in the street or this can happen
More probablys, maybes, ifs and buts.

If the cop thought he was 20 then he's not much of a police officer to be almost a decade out in assessing the age. Strange how the old man who made the 911 call more or less correctly assessed the scene from across the street correctly guessing the gun was fake and the perp was a child but the trained police officers got so much wrong.,

[Crimson Dynamo]

More probablys, maybes, ifs and buts.

If the cop thought he was 20 then he's not much of a police officer to be almost a decade out in assessing the age. Strange how the old man who made the 911 call more or less correctly assessed the scene from across the street correctly guessing the gun was fake and the perp was a child but the trained police officers got so much wrong.,

the old guy was sat watching the kid all afternoon. the cops have a few moments to assess a potentially deadly situation

I just do not think you have any idea what it is like to be a law enforcement officer

[GiRTh]

the old guy was sat watching the kid all afternoon. the cops have a few moments to assess a potentially deadly situation

I just do not think you have any idea what it is like to be a law enforcement officerI think you've got absolutely no clue about a number of things and being a law enforcement officer is one of them. The fact that he was called to a PLAY-ground should have tipped him off to a few things.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think you've got absolutely no clue about a number of things and being a law enforcement officer is one of them. The fact that he was called to a PLAY-ground should have tipped him off to a few things.

drug dealing for one

[GiRTh]

drug dealing for one
Is that a joke or are you making more of your assumptions?

[Ammi]

..but if the old guy had been watching him all afternoon and not one single shot had been fired then that would be an indication surely, that it would be unlikely that he would fire at the police officers..there seemed to be a lot they didn't know, even though information had been related by the caller...they didn't attempt to diffuse the situation at all, that was evident from the vid..they just shouted at him and then shot him when they saw his hand move in the direction of the gun...and even if he had been older...would that have made how they acted in this situation any better..shooting and killing a 20 year old at the speed they shot him would have been ok..?...they didn't attempt 'law and order', they just 'erased', without considering any alternative that could have resulted in no loss of life...they weren't absolutely certain the gun wasn't real so just to be certain, they shot to kill..is that really what 'law enforcement' is...is that not just executioners with badges....

[GiRTh]

..but if the old guy had been watching him all afternoon and not one single shot had been fired then that would be an indication surely, that it would be unlikely that he would fire at the police officers..there seemed to be a lot they didn't know, even though information had been related by the caller...they didn't attempt to diffuse the situation at all, that was evident from the vid..they just shouted at him and then shot him when they saw his hand move in the direction of the gun...and even if he had been older...would that have made how they acted in this situation any better..shooting and killing a 20 year old at the speed they shot him would have been ok..?...they didn't attempt 'law and order', they just 'erased', without considering any alternative that could have resulted in no loss of life...they weren't absolutely certain the gun wasn't real so just to be certain, they shot to kill..is that really what 'law enforcement' is...is that not just executioners with badges....:clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

..but if the old guy had been watching him all afternoon and not one single shot had been fired then that would be an indication surely, that it would be unlikely that he would fire at the police officers..there seemed to be a lot they didn't know, even though information had been related by the caller...they didn't attempt to diffuse the situation at all, that was evident from the vid..they just shouted at him and then shot him when they saw his hand move in the direction of the gun...and even if he had been older...would that have made how they acted in this situation any better..shooting and killing a 20 year old at the speed they shot him would have been ok..?...they didn't attempt 'law and order', they just 'erased', without considering any alternative that could have resulted in no loss of life...they weren't absolutely certain the gun wasn't real so just to be certain, they shot to kill..is that really what 'law enforcement' is...is that not just executioners with badges....

"but if the old guy had been watching him all afternoon and not one single shot had been fired then that would be an indication surely, that it would be unlikely that he would fire at the police officers"

why?

"there seemed to be a lot they didn't know"

welcome to the world of a police officer responding to a call from joe public

"and then shot him when they saw his hand move in the direction of the gun.."

and do you know how many families lose a father or mother when they dont react to that?. What should they do, wait till they shoot?

"they weren't absolutely certain the gun wasn't real "

why on earth would they assume it was not real when the call was guy with a gun, it was a replica - that means real unless you hold it, weigh it, examine it..


this is real life


:shrug:

[Ammi]

..I'm sure that many police officers are killed but so sometimes are innocent people as well and when that happens, a police officer should be as accountable as any other member of the public...it seems odd that he had been 'waving' this gun all afternoon and yet only one call was made by an old guy who didn't sound panicked at all to me..where were all of the panic calls from the other people passing and in the playpark who felt he was a threat and going to hurt someone...there is no mention of any so I presume they didn't happen...the public seemed to have 'assessed' that he didn't appear to be a threat and that they weren't in danger and the caller even said that he thought it was probably a fake gun...and yet two trained police officers within seconds had 'assessed' that he was indeed a threat and shot to kill..?...even though he wasn't because it was a child with a fake gun...I really don't see where the law was enforced there at all or where the public were made safe from a threat that didn't exist....

[Niamh.]

..but if the old guy had been watching him all afternoon and not one single shot had been fired then that would be an indication surely, that it would be unlikely that he would fire at the police officers..there seemed to be a lot they didn't know, even though information had been related by the caller...they didn't attempt to diffuse the situation at all, that was evident from the vid..they just shouted at him and then shot him when they saw his hand move in the direction of the gun...and even if he had been older...would that have made how they acted in this situation any better..shooting and killing a 20 year old at the speed they shot him would have been ok..?...they didn't attempt 'law and order', they just 'erased', without considering any alternative that could have resulted in no loss of life...they weren't absolutely certain the gun wasn't real so just to be certain, they shot to kill..is that really what 'law enforcement' is...is that not just executioners with badges....

:clap2:

[Tom4784]

drug dealing for one

More racism.

[GiRTh]

nVIM5XXtN-IUn-****ing-believable.

[Ammi]

nVIM5XXtN-IUn-****ing-believable.

..this is sickening, Girth...and nothing was done with the tape until they were contacted about it ...and now saying that they had believed the young guy was involved in the car park incident seems to be just trying to justify it when again there were witnesses to say that he hadn't even come from that direction....

[GiRTh]

Yep. Its disgusting and there are loads of stories just like that from the youtube channel.

[arista]

..this is sickening, Girth...and nothing was done with the tape until they were contacted about it ...and now saying that they had believed the young guy was involved in the car park incident seems to be just trying to justify it when again there were witnesses to say that he hadn't even come from that direction....


Its America
why do you think this goes on.

USA President Lame Duck

[Crimson Dynamo]

nVIM5XXtN-IUn-****ing-believable.

what has this to do with the thread?


:shrug:

[GiRTh]

what has this to do with the thread?


:shrug:

It shows a pattern of police using excessive force. This happened two months ago.

[arista]

what has this to do with the thread?


:shrug:

Nothing


It needs a New USA: thread

[GiRTh]

Nothing


It needs a New USA: threadIf i opened up thread for every vid I've seen just ik this then it'd overrun the forum Why dont we ask the mods? Should I open a new thread for every story I find like this and I warn you there are plenty.

[arista]

We just need a USA News Section
as its never ending


and nothing to do with us in the UK

[Crimson Dynamo]

It shows a pattern of police using excessive force. This happened two months ago.

there are 278,000,000 people in the USA

dont be silly

[Crimson Dynamo]

Nothing


It needs a New USA: thread

like the DM has now

[arista]

like the DM has now

Sure

[GiRTh]

there are 278,000,000 people in the USA

dont be sillyI can put up 20+ vids just like this as there are channels devoted to police brutality and misconduct. But if you think its silly for police to ignore procedure and infringe citizens rights then that goes toward your mind set.

Personally I think its silly to be happy with police killing children

[Crimson Dynamo]

:QUOTE=GiRTh;7396729]I can put up 20+ vids just like this as there are channels devoted to police brutality and misconduct. But if you think its silly for police to ignore procedure and infringe citizens rights then that goes toward your mind set.

Personally I think its silly to be happy with police killing children[/QUOTE]

You can show me 20+ youtube videos?

:laugh2:

[GiRTh]

:QUOTE=GiRTh;7396729]I can put up 20+ vids just like this as there are channels devoted to police brutality and misconduct. But if you think its silly for police to ignore procedure and infringe citizens rights then that goes toward your mind set.

Personally I think its silly to be happy with police killing children

You can show me 20+ youtube videos?

:laugh2:[/QUOTE]easily

Check out this 'silly' youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/user/policecrimecom

[GiRTh]

I think the vids of the officers stealing the pizza is the funniest. They are no better than common criminals. :laugh2:

[GiRTh]

gbHVEdo24uwOfficer Philip Nace. I think this c**nt has finally been fired. Watch him arrest someone for saying hi.

[GiRTh]

9JoBFc1K-m8Officer Philip Nace again. Watch him purposely tip over the basketball hoop then taunt the young gentleman on the street. What a ******.

[Kizzy]

I can put up 20+ vids just like this as there are channels devoted to police brutality and misconduct. But if you think its silly for police to ignore procedure and infringe citizens rights then that goes toward your mind set.

Personally I think its silly to be happy with police killing children

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[GiRTh]

QScdEQ83sKsNot surprised by this.

[Ammi]

QScdEQ83sKsNot surprised by this.

..that wasn't just a criticism by a superior, was it...'to be relieved of his position..'...

[GiRTh]

..that wasn't just a criticism by a superior, was it...'to be relieved of his position..'...No he was basically labelled unfit for the police force but he was so determined to be an officer he applied elsewhere. Tragically the superior got it right and the ******wit shot and killed a 12 year old.

[GiRTh]

qR7DQTjqn3A

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/03/officer-who-fatally-shot-tamir-rice-had-been-judged-unfit

eZQknv-vTLI

[Crimson Dynamo]

or maybe dont spend the afternoon waving a replica gun around in an open space in america with your hood up...

[GiRTh]

or maybe dont spend the afternoon waving a replica gun around in an open space in america with your hood up...1. thats not a crime
2. Its been established the cop was incompetent and 'lacked the maturity' - quote from the assesment made by the other police force - thus should never have been in a position to show just how immature he actually was. 'Neither time or training will be able to train or correct the deficiencies' - is quite a damning indictment. v It almost like he knew the officer was such a muppet that he'd shoot and kill a 12 year old.

[Crimson Dynamo]

1. thats not a crime
2. Its been established the cop was incompetent and 'lacked the maturity' - quote from the assesment made by the other police force - thus should never have been in a position to show just how immature he actually was. 'Neither time or training will be able to train or correct the deficiencies' - is quite a damning indictment. v It almost like he knew the officer was such a muppet that he'd shoot and kill a 12 year old.

That was 2 years prior and the officer had no idea what age the youth was and thought, as anyone would, the firearm was live

I fully expect no charges brought against him.

[GiRTh]

That was 2 years prior and the officer had no idea what age the youth was and thought, as anyone would, the firearm was live

I fully expect no charges brought against him.I dont think charges will be bought either. He may not even be disciplined but the evidence that he was deemed unfit for duty shows the quality of individual he was. The way he resigned from the other job so as not to hurt his chances of becoming a police officer Hats off to him s for having the focus to fulfill his dream and now he murdered a child. Good on him I'm sure he's a top bloke.

Interesting thought. The fact the car pulled up just a few feet away. Why not park 20-30 feet from the boy and issue an instruction to the child thru the on car megaphone to drop the weapon from the safety of the vehicle. Why didn't that happen?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I dont think charges will be bought either. He may not even be disciplined but the evidence that he was deemed unfit for duty shows the quality of individual he was. The way he resigned from the other job so as not to hurt his chances of becoming a police officer Hats off to him s for having the focus to fulfill his dream and now he murdered a child. Good on him I'm sure he's a top bloke.

Interesting thought. The fact the car pulled up just a few feet away. Why not park 20-30 feet from the boy and issue an instruction to the child thru the on car megaphone to drop the weapon from the safety of the vehicle. Why didn't that happen?

Did you see the video that show what happened in the minute before that video and panning back to show the whole area?

[GiRTh]

Did you see the video that show what happened in the minute before that video and panning back to show the whole area?yes

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes

where is it?

[GiRTh]

He was sitting in the bench playing with the fake gun. They had ample time to issue an instruction from within the car.