CIA lied over 'brutal' interrogations

[MTVN]

The CIA carried out "brutal" interrogations of al-Qaeda suspects in the years after the 9/11 attacks on the US, a US Senate report has said.

The summary of the report, compiled by Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said that the CIA misled Americans about what it was doing.

The information the CIA collected this way failed to secure information that foiled any threats, the report said.

In a statement, the CIA insisted that the interrogations did help save lives.

"The intelligence gained from the programme was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts to this day," Director John Brennan said in a statement.

However, the CIA said it acknowledged that there were mistakes in the programme, especially early on when it was unprepared for the scale of the operation to detain and interrogate prisoners.

The programme - known internally as the Rendition, Detention and Interrogation programme - took place from 2002-07, during the presidency of George W Bush.

Suspects were interrogated using methods such as waterboarding, slapping, humiliation, exposure to cold and sleep deprivation.

'Significant damage'
Introducing the report to the Senate, Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein described the CIA's actions as a stain on US history.

"The release of this 500-page summary cannot remove that stain, but it can and does say to our people and the world that America is big enough to admit when it's wrong and confident enough to learn from its mistakes," she said.

"Under any common meaning of the term, CIA detainees were tortured," she added.

Earlier, President Obama responded to the report, saying the methods used were inconsistent with US values.

"These techniques did significant damage to America's standing in the world and made it harder to pursue our interests with allies and partners," he said in a statement.

Reacting to the release of the report summary, the Senate Republican leaders insisted that the methods used helped in the capture of important suspects and the killing of Osama bin Laden.

"Claims included in this report that assert the contrary are simply wrong," Senators Mitch McConnell and Saxby Chambliss said in a joint statement.

The Senate committee's report runs to more than 6,000 pages, drawing on huge quantities of evidence, but it remains classified and only a 480-page summary has been released.

Mr Obama halted the CIA interrogation programme when he took office in 2009.

Earlier this year, he said that in his view the methods used to question al-Qaeda prisoners amounted to torture.

Publication of the report had been delayed amid disagreements in Washington over what should be made public.

Security was increased at US facilities around the world ahead of publication.

Embassies and other sites were taking precautions amid "some indications" of "greater risk", a White House spokesman said.

US Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel said he had ordered all top US military commanders to be on high alert.

Its main points include the following:

- At no time did coercive interrogation techniques lead of collection of intelligence on imminent threats

- None of 20 cases of counterterrorism "successes" attributed to the techniques led to unique or otherwise unavailable intelligence

- The CIA misled politicians and public, giving inaccurate information to obtain approval for using techniques

- The CIA claimed falsely that no senators had objected to the programme.

- Management of the programme was deeply flawed, for example the operation of the second detention facility, known as COBALT

- At least 26 of 119 known detainees in custody during the life of the programme were wrongfully held, and many held for months longer than they should have been

- Aggressive techniques were used on suspects from the start, despite CIA claims that interrogations would begin with less coercive methods

- Methods included sleep deprivation for up to 180 hours, often standing or in painful positions

- Waterboarding was physically harmful to prisoners, causing convulsions and vomiting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30401100

Is it any wonder that a lot of people see the West as mistrustful hypocrites when this sh*t gets carried out in secret and then explicitly lied about? Well done to those Senators who brought it to light

[Livia]

I think it's dangerous to continually hold the security services to public account. It's hard to conceive the weight of responsibility on the security services in all countries fighting terrorism and reports like this do nothing but aid terrorists and support for terrorists. Waterboarding caused convulsions and vomiting... well at least their heads weren't hacked off.

The most telling sentence from that whole report for me is this:
"The intelligence gained from the programme was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts to this day," Director John Brennan said in a statement."

[MTVN]

I think it's dangerous to continually hold the security services to public account. It's hard to conceive the weight of responsibility on the security services in all countries fighting terrorism and reports like this do nothing but aid terrorists and support for terrorists. Waterboarding caused convulsions and vomiting... well at least their heads weren't hacked off.

The most telling sentence from that whole report for me is this:
"The intelligence gained from the programme was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts to this day," Director John Brennan said in a statement."

Can't help but feel like those are the empty words of a Director who needs to cover his ass though, I'd place more weight in the findings of a transparent and deeply researched report. I also doubt the US security services would be so understanding if a report surfaced like this about the Russian security services.

Fact is you cannot claim to be a beacon of human rights on the surface while carrying out stuff like this clandestinely. You either work within the law or you're above it. And when you are above it you can no longer preach it.

[Livia]

Can't help but feel like those are the empty words of a Director who needs to cover his ass though, I'd place more weight in the findings of a transparent and deeply researched report. I also doubt the US security services would be so understanding if a report surfaced like this about the Russian security services.

Fact is you cannot claim to be a beacon of human rights on the surface while carrying out stuff like this clandestinely. You either work within the law or you're above it. And when you are above it you can no longer preach it.

It's hard to be a beacon of human rights when people are trying to blow bits off of civilians in your country, or fly planes into your buildings, blow up buses and trains etc, and you think there might be something you can do to keep people safe. I really believe that if there are deeply researched reports about organisations like the CIA they need to be kept out of the public domain. If we want people to work to keep us safe in the face of appalling acts of terrorism, we have to trust them to do their job. I'm not saying they should not be accountable to their own government, but they should not have to account to the public because in the end it'll tie their hands in a way that would threaten national security.

[Nedusa]

If my family were in the target area of a terrorist attack and I had one of the terrorists in custody , I would use all and I mean ALL methods to extract the information I needed to save innocent lives.




.

[user104658]

I think the most hilarious part of this entire fiasco is that we're genuinely supposed to believe that the White House "wasn't told about it all and didn't know about it". :joker:. That is a rib-tickler.

[MTVN]

It's hard to be a beacon of human rights when people are trying to blow bits off of civilians in your country, or fly planes into your buildings, blow up buses and trains etc, and you think there might be something you can do to keep people safe. I really believe that if there are deeply researched reports about organisations like the CIA they need to be kept out of the public domain. If we want people to work to keep us safe in the face of appalling acts of terrorism, we have to trust them to do their job. I'm not saying they should not be accountable to their own government, but they should not have to account to the public because in the end it'll tie their hands in a way that would threaten national security.

In general I think I agree with you, I'm happy to not know what our secret services are doing but we are supposed to trust them with that secrecy. They are supposed to use it but not abuse it, and you are still supposed to continue to work within the parameters that your government sets and which your government claims to uphold. The CIA have abused their secrecy and I am fine with that being exposed.

[kirklancaster]

I think it's dangerous to continually hold the security services to public account. It's hard to conceive the weight of responsibility on the security services in all countries fighting terrorism and reports like this do nothing but aid terrorists and support for terrorists. Waterboarding caused convulsions and vomiting... well at least their heads weren't hacked off.

The most telling sentence from that whole report for me is this:
"The intelligence gained from the programme was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts to this day," Director John Brennan said in a statement."

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

You are so right Livia. This is just the kind of 'Bleeding Heart', 'Wishy Washy' crap that fuels these murdering bastards cause and gains them sympathy where there should never be any.

I question the motives and loyalty of those authors of this report because what purpose does it serve other than - as you say - evoke support for these Jihadist scum murderers. And what are the authors of this report expecting by publishing it? a slap on the back from Jihadi John & company for them playing 'the white man', followed by a ceasing of all further beheadings?

Desperate times call for desperate measures and these are desperate times. We are at war with sub-human terrorist monsters, and it is a war that we did not want and did not start, but it is a war we dare not lose, and therefore, anything we do to ensure that we win, is justified.

[kirklancaster]

If my family were in the target area of a terrorist attack and I had one of the terrorists in custody , I would use all and I mean ALL methods to extract the information I needed to save innocent lives.

.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Kizzy]

Hang on, I thought it was well known that they used extreme techniques to extract information, isn't that what American dad is all about?

[MTVN]

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

You are so right Livia. This is just the kind of 'Bleeding Heart', 'Wishy Washy' crap that fuels these murdering bastards cause and gains them sympathy where there should never be any.

I question the motives and loyalty of those authors of this report because what purpose does it serve other than - as you say - evoke support for these Jihadist scum murderers. And what are the authors of this report expecting by publishing it? a slap on the back from Jihadi John & company for them playing 'the white man', followed by a ceasing of all further beheadings?

Desperate times call for desperate measures and these are desperate times. We are at war with sub-human terrorist monsters, and it is a war that we did not want and did not start, but it is a war we dare not lose, and therefore, anything we do to ensure that we win, is justified.

This is nothing to do with ISIS, this is about the actions of the CIA 2002-2007 under a programme that Obama halted in 2009 because he realised it was not productive, it did not help with anything, and it completely flew in the face of everything that the US believes in and claims to uphold. This report shows that he was more right to do so than he probably realised at the time.

You are creating a false equivalence here between critics of CIA interrogation (let's call what it is though really - torture) and Isalmist-enablers. It's completely false. There is a way to combat extremism without resorting to torture. Many would say that there are much more effective ways and that torture actually doesn't help at all. Choose to disbelieve 500 pages of intensely researched evidence if you will, but if the report says CIA interrogation "failed to secure information that foiled any threats" then I'm not gonna blindly justify those methods.

Call me 'bleeding heart' and 'wishy washy' if you like but for all the warmongering rhetoric in the world this arbitrary and indiscriminate sh*t does not sit well with me and never will

[joeysteele]

If my family were in the target area of a terrorist attack and I had one of the terrorists in custody , I would use all and I mean ALL methods to extract the information I needed to save innocent lives.




.

Pretty much my take at present.

The anger I still feel as to those who murdered Lee Rigby and also these vile things from IS who are publicly humiliating and murdering innocent people.

It all just leaves me not caring a single bit as to how they are treated to get information that could help end their vile acts once and for all and protect innocent people from them and their like.

[GypsyGoth]

They tortured the guy who planned 911? I don't see the problem :shrug:

[Tom4784]

My opinion pretty much completely coincides with MTVN's.

[arista]

[Is it any wonder that a lot of people see the West as mistrustful hypocrites]


Yes very much like the latest TV UK broadcast of Ch4HD Homeland episode


Sign Of The Times

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/09/article-2867736-04BD9B6B0000044D-542_308x438.jpg

[Creggle]

I bet it wasn't brutal enough, terrorists deserve nothing, they are below insects.

[MTVN]

Just heard John McCain welcoming the findings of this report. A passionate Republican who has always believed in America playing a strong military role in the world thinks that the CIA were out of order. Also someone who himself was subject to torture as a POW in Vietnam. An excerpt from his speech:

“Mr. President, I rise in support of the release – the long-delayed release – of the Senate Intelligence Committee’s summarized, unclassified review of the so-called ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ that were employed by the previous administration to extract information from captured terrorists. It is a thorough and thoughtful study of practices that I believe not only failed their purpose – to secure actionable intelligence to prevent further attacks on the U.S. and our allies – but actually damaged our security interests, as well as our reputation as a force for good in the world.

“I believe the American people have a right – indeed, a responsibility – to know what was done in their name; how these practices did or did not serve our interests; and how they comported with our most important values.

“I commend Chairman Feinstein and her staff for their diligence in seeking a truthful accounting of policies I hope we will never resort to again. I thank them for persevering against persistent opposition from many members of the intelligence community, from officials in two administrations, and from some of our colleagues.

“The truth is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. It sometimes causes us difficulties at home and abroad. It is sometimes used by our enemies in attempts to hurt us. But the American people are entitled to it, nonetheless.

“They must know when the values that define our nation are intentionally disregarded by our security policies, even those policies that are conducted in secret. They must be able to make informed judgments about whether those policies and the personnel who supported them were justified in compromising our values; whether they served a greater good; or whether, as I believe, they stained our national honor, did much harm and little practical good.

In full here: http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=1a15e343-66b0-473f-b0c1-a58f984db996

So can we please stop with the straw man that to oppose terrorism you need to support the CIA's methods here; you don't.

[kirklancaster]

This is nothing to do with ISIS, this is about the actions of the CIA 2002-2007 under a programme that Obama halted in 2009 because he realised it was not productive, it did not help with anything, and it completely flew in the face of everything that the US believes in and claims to uphold. This report shows that he was more right to do so than he probably realised at the time.

You are creating a false equivalence here between critics of CIA interrogation (let's call what it is though really - torture) and Isalmist-enablers. It's completely false. There is a way to combat extremism without resorting to torture. Many would say that there are much more effective ways and that torture actually doesn't help at all. Choose to disbelieve 500 pages of intensely researched evidence if you will, but if the report says CIA interrogation "failed to secure information that foiled any threats" then I'm not gonna blindly justify those methods.

Call me 'bleeding heart' and 'wishy washy' if you like but for all the warmongering rhetoric in the world this arbitrary and indiscriminate sh*t does not sit well with me and never will

I don't recall calling you anything - I was referring to the report when I said that: "this is just the kind of 'Bleeding Heart', 'Wishy Washy' crap that fuels these murdering bastards cause and gains them sympathy where there should never be any." and it was addressed to Livia and not any kind of response to you.

But if you wish to so label yourself -- Don't let me stop you.

This is a democratic forum where all opinions are equally as welcome, so it is your prerogative to regard my views as 'warmongering rhetoric' and 'indiscriminate sh*t', but the fact that the latter does not sit well with you is unfortunately quite irrelevant as far as the validity of what I write is concerned.

As for "Nothing to do with ISIS" I never said it was, but your point is purely pedantic anyway, because the terrorism is the same, the 'cause' is the same, the bombings and murdering are the same, the names of the bombers and murdering bastards are the same - Ali, Aahmed, Aasif, Aasil (and we haven't moved from the letter 'A' yet) - only the names of the subhuman terrorist organisation changes.

As for your claim that: "There is a way to combat extremism without resorting to torture."

Perhaps you'd like to expound and outline just which "way" you allude to? How about we play fecking football for such vital information with Jihadi John? Perhaps we could use any of his innocent victim's severed heads as the football? First to three goals wins.

Again you have the God-given democratic right (for now, thanks to whatever it is that our security forces get up in private with terrorist murdering scumbags in order to protect our democratic way of life) to believe what you want. So when you state that you "are not gonna blindly justify those methods" because you believe the report and that the CIA interrogation "failed to secure information that foiled any threats", you are in order.

However, under the same God-given democratic rights, I have the prerogative to believe Director John Brennan when he states that: "The intelligence gained from the program was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counter-terrorism efforts to this day."

You can take umbrage at my views and state that I am a warmonger, and I will state that it is people like you who need a reality check as to just what is happening in every country in this world with these inhuman, insane, evil. murdering dog turds, and your 'sense of PC fair play' is outdated, ludricous, and extremely dangerous.

Personally, this 'warmonger' could not give a flying feck as to just what any of the Security Services of the countries of the (still barely) 'Free' world get up to in order to extract information which may save lives and halt the March of Islamic Fundamentalism - and you can bet a £1.00 to a Dinar, that no matter what they get up to, it will pale into insignificance in comparison to the evil atrocities which these barbaric terrorist demons perpetrate daily.

[kirklancaster]

Pretty much my take at present.

The anger I still feel as to those who murdered Lee Rigby and also these vile things from IS who are publicly humiliating and murdering innocent people.

It all just leaves me not caring a single bit as to how they are treated to get information that could help end their vile acts once and for all and protect innocent people from them and their like.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

They watched too much Delta force.

[arista]

I bet it wasn't brutal enough, terrorists deserve nothing, they are below insects.


OK
so long as Everyone under the basement CIA cell
is Guilty of something
as some arrested had done nothing wrong at all

[Nedusa]

I don't recall calling you anything - I was referring to the report when I said that: "this is just the kind of 'Bleeding Heart', 'Wishy Washy' crap that fuels these murdering bastards cause and gains them sympathy where there should never be any." and it was addressed to Livia and not any kind of response to you.

But if you wish to so label yourself -- Don't let me stop you.

This is a democratic forum where all opinions are equally as welcome, so it is your prerogative to regard my views as 'warmongering rhetoric' and 'indiscriminate sh*t', but the fact that the latter does not sit well with you is unfortunately quite irrelevant as far as the validity of what I write is concerned.

As for "Nothing to do with ISIS" I never said it was, but your point is purely pedantic anyway, because the terrorism is the same, the 'cause' is the same, the bombings and murdering are the same, the names of the bombers and murdering bastards are the same - Ali, Aahmed, Aasif, Aasil (and we haven't moved from the letter 'A' yet) - only the names of the subhuman terrorist organisation changes.

As for your claim that: "There is a way to combat extremism without resorting to torture."

Perhaps you'd like to expound and outline just which "way" you allude to? How about we play fecking football for such vital information with Jihadi John? Perhaps we could use any of his innocent victim's severed heads as the football? First to three goals wins.

Again you have the God-given democratic right (for now, thanks to whatever it is that our security forces get up in private with terrorist murdering scumbags in order to protect our democratic way of life) to believe what you want. So when you state that you "are not gonna blindly justify those methods" because you believe the report and that the CIA interrogation "failed to secure information that foiled any threats", you are in order.

However, under the same God-given democratic rights, I have the prerogative to believe Director John Brennan when he states that: "The intelligence gained from the program was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counter-terrorism efforts to this day."

You can take umbrage at my views and state that I am a warmonger, and I will state that it is people like you who need a reality check as to just what is happening in every country in this world with these inhuman, insane, evil. murdering dog turds, and your 'sense of PC fair play' is outdated, ludricous, and extremely dangerous.

Personally, this 'warmonger' could not give a flying feck as to just what any of the Security Services of the countries of the (still barely) 'Free' world get up to in order to extract information which may save lives and halt the March of Islamic Fundamentalism - and you can bet a £1.00 to a Dinar, that no matter what they get up to, it will pale into insignificance in comparison to the evil atrocities which these barbaric terrorist demons perpetrate daily.

Agree totally..........What people fail to realise is that there is and has been for decades a dirty war going on between the major security services and the main terrorist organisations.

We probably use all methods known to mankind to extract,glean vital information that saves or will save thousands of innocent lives.

In a dirty war both sides have to play dirty otherwise one side would quickly lose. So because the general public have innate sense of morality and fair play and do not wish to think that on their behalf their protectors have to engage in a lot of underhand,nasty, unlawful stuff, the security services must always provide a veneer of respectability when reporting their actions in fighting terrorism.

But it is a god awful murky dirty world and I have nothing but admiration for people that dedicate their lives to the service of their Country forsaking a normal life in many cases, just to keep YOU safe in your pleasant little existance.

So Yes when it comes down to it, we have to do some bad sh it sometimes because we are fighting the most evil,nasty, sub human, death worshipping vermin, people who are lost in extremism , brain washed to think they have a righteous duty to inflict the most evil savage torture on completely innocent people.

So please if you think we can fight people like this with slaps on the wrist or threats of jail or major leaflet campaign then think again. This evil has to be fought on all fronts using ALL weapons available.

These sub human murderous animals started this..........we MUST finish it.





.

[Crimson Dynamo]

it did result in the US getting Bin Laden..

[MTVN]

I don't recall calling you anything - I was referring to the report when I said that: "this is just the kind of 'Bleeding Heart', 'Wishy Washy' crap that fuels these murdering bastards cause and gains them sympathy where there should never be any." and it was addressed to Livia and not any kind of response to you.

But if you wish to so label yourself -- Don't let me stop you.

This is a democratic forum where all opinions are equally as welcome, so it is your prerogative to regard my views as 'warmongering rhetoric' and 'indiscriminate sh*t', but the fact that the latter does not sit well with you is unfortunately quite irrelevant as far as the validity of what I write is concerned.

As for "Nothing to do with ISIS" I never said it was, but your point is purely pedantic anyway, because the terrorism is the same, the 'cause' is the same, the bombings and murdering are the same, the names of the bombers and murdering bastards are the same - Ali, Aahmed, Aasif, Aasil (and we haven't moved from the letter 'A' yet) - only the names of the subhuman terrorist organisation changes.

As for your claim that: "There is a way to combat extremism without resorting to torture."

Perhaps you'd like to expound and outline just which "way" you allude to? How about we play fecking football for such vital information with Jihadi John? Perhaps we could use any of his innocent victim's severed heads as the football? First to three goals wins.

Again you have the God-given democratic right (for now, thanks to whatever it is that our security forces get up in private with terrorist murdering scumbags in order to protect our democratic way of life) to believe what you want. So when you state that you "are not gonna blindly justify those methods" because you believe the report and that the CIA interrogation "failed to secure information that foiled any threats", you are in order.

However, under the same God-given democratic rights, I have the prerogative to believe Director John Brennan when he states that: "The intelligence gained from the program was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counter-terrorism efforts to this day."

You can take umbrage at my views and state that I am a warmonger, and I will state that it is people like you who need a reality check as to just what is happening in every country in this world with these inhuman, insane, evil. murdering dog turds, and your 'sense of PC fair play' is outdated, ludricous, and extremely dangerous.

Personally, this 'warmonger' could not give a flying feck as to just what any of the Security Services of the countries of the (still barely) 'Free' world get up to in order to extract information which may save lives and halt the March of Islamic Fundamentalism - and you can bet a £1.00 to a Dinar, that no matter what they get up to, it will pale into insignificance in comparison to the evil atrocities which these barbaric terrorist demons perpetrate daily.

I was referring to the actions of the CIA as 'indiscriminate sh*t' not anything you posted. And personally, yes I do see many justifications of torture as based on warmongering rhetoric, just as you see condemnations of it as 'bleeding heart' and 'wishy washy' crap.

I don't think we will ever agree on this so I won't pursue it too strongly. But let's just be clear again that this report was commissioned by members of government into a program stopped by Obama in 2009. And that the report has the backing of John McCain who is a strong believer in US military intervention and has been on the wrong end of torture himself. These are the people who are at the very heart of the battle against extremism and have been for years, and this is the government who is doing near on everything feasible to find Jihadi John and his lot. So don't make them out as some out of touch bleeding hearts who know nothing about the reality of war; they know full well.

[MTVN]

it did result in the US getting Bin Laden..

The most important information obtained in the hunt for Bin Laden did not come from torture

[Northern Monkey]

I think it's dangerous to continually hold the security services to public account. It's hard to conceive the weight of responsibility on the security services in all countries fighting terrorism and reports like this do nothing but aid terrorists and support for terrorists. Waterboarding caused convulsions and vomiting... well at least their heads weren't hacked off.

The most telling sentence from that whole report for me is this:
"The intelligence gained from the programme was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts to this day," Director John Brennan said in a statement."

:thumbs: :clap1:
Anything goes as far as i'm concerned with these bastards.The more reports that come out and public uproar,The less power we have to deal with these scumbags.
How else do you extract information from someone who is happy to die for their cause?
You have to cause them pain and make them talk,Asking them nicely is'nt gonna work.
As far as i'm aware the US government is yet to behead one these terrorists.They don't sink anywhere near their level.

[MTVN]

It's also important to note that not everyone who was treated this way was a tried and tested, foaming at the mouth jihadist intent on beheading innocents.

"26 of the 119 were wrongfully held and later judged nothing to do with terrorism"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11284014/CIA-lied-to-Congress-White-House-and-Britain-over-brutal-global-torture-programme-says-US-Senate-report.html

Among the people who were wrongly held was Nazar Ali, "an 'intellectually challenged' individual whose taped crying was used as leverage against his family member".

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03133/intellectually_cha_3133288c.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11284139/Torture-report-10-examples-of-the-horror-in-the-CIAs-prisons.html

Woop yeah, get dem terrorists!!!!!!

[kirklancaster]

I was referring to the actions of the CIA as 'indiscriminate sh*t' not anything you posted. And personally, yes I do see many justifications of torture as based on warmongering rhetoric, just as you see condemnations of it as 'bleeding heart' and 'wishy washy' crap.

I don't think we will ever agree on this so I won't pursue it too strongly. But let's just be clear again that this report was commissioned by members of government into a program stopped by Obama in 2009. And that the report has the backing of John McCain who is a strong believer in US military intervention and has been on the wrong end of torture himself. These are the people who are at the very heart of the battle against extremism and have been for years, and this is the government who is doing near on everything feasible to find Jihadi John and his lot. So don't make them out as some out of touch bleeding hearts who know nothing about the reality of war; they know full well.

I'm not belittling the part played by Americans or the USA in hunting down terrorists or in fighting terrorism -- I align myself 1000% with the USA and Israel -- but this being so, does not mean that I have to agree with Obama's actions here, or McCain's opinions, because I don't. McCain's views are relevant because of his experiences but that experience does not give him a monopoly on the truth, nor automatically render his opinions any more valid on this subject than mine. It is just opinion.

Further: I disagree that the US Government "is doing near on everything feasible to find Jihadi John and his lot" because - like all Western Governments - their efforts are shackled by an outdated and misplaced sense of morality (which ironically, is so totally lacking in these Islamic Fundamentalist monsters) and they do not go far enough.

To reiterate: I do not "make them out as some out of touch bleeding hearts who know nothing about the reality of war" but knowing about "war" is one thing, and recognising what actions are necessary to win that war, and implementing them - no matter how personally morally reprehensible those actions may be - is wholly another thing.

I agree with you that we will never agree on this subject so I think we will have to agree to disagree, but I wish to make a couple of points clear; I believe in God with all my heart, mind and soul - a Christian God at that - and I am -- and always have been -- anti-war - but I am also a realist, and sadly resigned to the fact that sometimes only extreme counter measures will truly counter extreme measures.

In have seen the future if we do not cast off those 'shackles of misplaced morality' and become demons to fight demons, and if we do, then for me, the end will justify the means. If we don't, then these Islamic Fundamentalist monsters will win this war, and when they do, no amount of pleading to their non-existent moral sensibilities and 'sense of fair play' will prevent your head becoming detached from your shoulders.

[kirklancaster]

It's also important to note that not everyone who was treated this way was a tried and tested, foaming at the mouth jihadist intent on beheading innocents.

"26 of the 119 were wrongfully held and later judged nothing to do with terrorism"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11284014/CIA-lied-to-Congress-White-House-and-Britain-over-brutal-global-torture-programme-says-US-Senate-report.html

Among the people who were wrongly held was Nazar Ali, "an 'intellectually challenged' individual whose taped crying was used as leverage against his family member".

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03133/intellectually_cha_3133288c.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11284139/Torture-report-10-examples-of-the-horror-in-the-CIAs-prisons.html

Woop yeah, get dem terrorists!!!!!!

I understand any critic of the interrogation techniques in question holding up the fact that out of 119 'suspected' terrorists 26 were 'deemed' to be innocent, but before they start wearing such a fact as some kind of 'Badge of Honour', perhaps we should recognise the very telling fact that this means that of the 119 'suspected' terrorists interrogated 93 were actual terrorists.

So, yes, 26 'innocent' suspects are an example of unfortunate and regrettable 'collateral damage', but these 'innocents' still live and breathe to tell their tales -- unlike all the poor innocent victims of the Islamic Fundamentalist butchers who are the raison d'etre for these 'interrogations' in the first place.

26 'innocent victims will recover, be compensated, live on, and who knows how many thousands or tens of thousands of innocent victims will also continue to 'live on', because of vital information 'obtained' from these 93 actual terrorists about their planned future atrocities?

The end justifies the means.

[Kizzy]

So it's ok to torture innocent people as the ratio to actual terrorists is not as great?...

1 in every 5 roughly is an acceptable figure and collateral damage, no it's not justifiable.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its america

is anyone surprised?

[kirklancaster]

So it's ok to torture innocent people as the ratio to actual terrorists is not as great?...

1 in every 5 roughly is an acceptable figure and collateral damage, no it's not justifiable.

I never said it was "OK" - I said that it was "regrettable" but in the context of 'extracting' vital information which could save tens of thousands of innocent lives by preventing planned terrorist atrocities, and millions of lives by helping us win this war, then it was unavoidable and necessary 'Collateral Damage' .

So in short - yes, I deem it justifiable. No one was butchered - unlike the many innocent victims of the Jihadist scum - and there was a reason for what transpired -- unlike the senseless bombings and beheadings by the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists who have no reason.

[Tom4784]

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

[Tom4784]

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

It does though, if we present ourselves as the Bastion of Democracy and advocates of Human Rights we can't go around abusing both on the sly in the guise of pretending it's for the greater good. It undermines everything we do and have done.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It does though, if we present ourselves as the Bastion of Democracy and advocates of Human Rights we can't go around abusing both on the sly in the guise of pretending it's for the greater good. It undermines everything we do and have done.

we are but we are realistic and realise than when dealing with the filthy side of humanity one will get ones halo dirty.

[kirklancaster]

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Fecking brilliantly put LT - You took the words right out of my mouth.

[MTVN]

Even if you have no ethical qualms about torture and its illegailty, surely this report casts massive doubts on its effectiveness even from a strictly utilitarian point of view. It goes some way to confirming what people have said for years; that information gleamed from torture is frequently unreliable by the very nature of its method. People either say anything their captors want to stop the pain or their mind is in such a state that they might not even know whether what they are saying is true or not.

The most valuable information that the CIA gained came through their tried and tested, legal interrogation measures, not their torturous ones.

[Livia]

We aren't dealing with a cause that can be reasoned or negotiated with. If we (USA and UK) really were "sinking to their level" we'd be dragging people out and having them watch while soldiers gang raped their wives and daughters and dismembered their sons... and that's just the nice stuff. I refuse to wring my hands for terrorists and their supporters knowing what these people are capable of, and I'm frankly shocked that Obama couldn't have kept his flapping gob shut on this one. No one in custody is totally innocent, they will be guilty at least by association. The security services don't arrest people and detain them for fun, they want to get to the root of the problem. If you want to make an omelette you have to break some eggs. If you want to live in safety and freedom, you have to take out the terrorist by any means necessary.

[kirklancaster]

We aren't dealing with a cause that can be reasoned or negotiated with. If we (USA and UK) really were "sinking to their level" we'd be dragging people out and having them watch while soldiers gang raped their wives and daughters and dismembered their sons... and that's just the nice stuff. I refuse to wring my hands for terrorists and their supporters knowing what these people are capable of, and I'm frankly shocked that Obama couldn't have kept his flapping gob shut on this one. No one in custody is totally innocent, they will be guilty at least by association. The security services don't arrest people and detain them for fun, they want to get to the root of the problem. If you want to make an omelette you have to break some eggs. If you want to live in safety and freedom, you have to take out the terrorist by any means necessary.

:flowers::kiss::worship:

[kirklancaster]

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

Try preaching those sentiments to the wives and mothers of fallen soldiers who were killed fighting a war on our behalf - a war which these Islamic Fundamentalist devils started unjustly.

Try preaching it to the grief-stricken parents of all the tiny innocent children killed or maimed in indiscriminate car bombings in civilian areas or in the deliberate targeting of schools and hospitals by these warped terrorists bastards.

For now - thanks to our soldiers and our intelligence and security services - we can both enjoy the freedom to express any opinion we want without fear of recrimination.

For how much longer, however, may truly depend on whether we get real and abandon our 'moral' shackles, or continue to fight inhuman, immoral devils wielding bombs and guns with fluffy pink slippers.

[Creggle]

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

[kirklancaster]

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

why this came out when we are at war with IS is beyond me

[kirklancaster]

why this came out when we are at war with IS is beyond me

You're right. That's what baffles me LT and why I said I suspect the authors motives and loyalty to the USA.

It doesn't make sense.

[Creggle]

I thought IS hated Al Qaeda/Taliban just as much as they do everyone else? Though it doesn't really matter, they can't stoop any lower anyway.

[MTVN]

What about all the times we have condemned governments around the world for their abuse of human rights? What about all the times that the likes of Iran have been frozen out from the international community because of how they treat their enemies? What about the times we have even toppled regimes and gone to war because of the disregard shown to international law?

You give leeway to our security services to torture detainees then you had better allow the same for the Russians, the Iranians, the Lebanese, the Syrians etc. etc. All governments that have to face up to extremism daily and have their citizens lives constantly under threat - for Russia in Chechnya, for the others constantly having IS on their doorsteps if not already inside their homes. We used the clandestine torturous activity of the Gaddafi regime as an excuse to bomb it. We came inches away from doing the same in Syria. For years we have wagged our finger at Iran for how they have treated their enemies because you either respect international law and human rights or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose. We were better than the Iranians though, apparently. We were different. We had consigned those methods to the scrap heap long ago. The hypocrisy is eye stinging. The only saving grace is that it has been laid bare. And in that sense, yes the US is better than Iran, Russia etc. because it has not swept this under the carpet. It has actually restored some of my faith in the West and Britain should follow but we obviously won't.

If this report motivates more people to the extremist cause then that is on those who carried out the torture. It is not on those who brought it to light. You say it's necessary in the interests of freedom and democracy well I would say it flies in the face of everything that those terms are supposed to mean.

[kirklancaster]

I thought IS hated Al Qaeda/Taliban just as much as they do everyone else? Though it doesn't really matter, they can't stoop any lower anyway.

They're all pissing the same Fundamentalist urine into the same Muslim Brotherhood pot.

The only difference is that Al Quaeda and the Taliban extremists are not fanatacal and extreme or devout enough for ISIS who are self-elected Islamic purists.

[kirklancaster]

What about all the times we have condemned governments around the world for their abuse of human rights? What about all the times that the likes of Iran have been frozen out from the international community because of how they treat their enemies? What about the times we have even toppled regimes and gone to war because of the disregard shown to international law?

You give leeway to our security services to torture detainees then you had better allow the same for the Russians, the Iranians, the Lebanese, the Syrians etc. etc. All governments that have to face up to extremism daily and have their citizens lives constantly under threat - for Russia in Chechnya, for the others constantly having IS on their doorsteps if not already inside their homes. We used the clandestine torturous activity of the Gaddafi regime as an excuse to bomb it. We came inches away from doing the same in Syria. For years we have wagged our finger at Iran for how they have treated their enemies because you either respect international law and human rights or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose. We were better than the Iranians though, apparently. We were different. We had consigned those methods to the scrap heap long ago. The hypocrisy is eye stinging. The only saving grace is that it has been laid bare. And in that sense, yes the US is better than Iran, Russia etc. because it has not swept this under the carpet. It has actually restored some of my faith in the West and Britain should follow but we obviously won't.

If this report motivates more people to the extremist cause then that is on those who carried out the torture. It is not on those who brought it to light. You say it's necessary in the interests of freedom and democracy well I would say it flies in the face of everything that those terms are supposed to mean.

MTVN - I really do respect your passion and integrity, but we will never, ever agree on this subject.

You are correct in a lot of the points you make which would - essentially - mean that I am employing 'double standards' -- which I am.

The reasons for this is, that I am fanatically partisan about the UK and Christianity, and have also supported Israel from the time I was a schoolkid, and I am both increasingly angered, and sickened by these Islamic fanatics and their barbaric, murderous self-proclaimed agenda to conquer the world.

The terrorism, the senseless slaughter, the bombings and wars, will never ever stop until either the Islamic Fundamentalists are stopped -- forever -- or they win and fulfill their agenda, and if that happens, we will witness executions on such a scale that it will eclipse all the heinous slaughter of every evil regime and lunatic despot in history --- including Hitler, Pol Pot, Attila the Hun and Vlad the Impaler.

You simply cannot fight by the Marquis of Queensberry rules when the guy in the other corner is wielding a baseball bat, and you cannot appeal to the 'human' in non-humans, nor rely on the spirituality of the Godless, or try to negotiate with the fanatic who will not cede one inch of ground because he wholeheartedly believes that all 'ground' is Allah's by right.

So I simply do not care what levels we stoop to in order to eradicate these murderous demons, nor do I care how much we now have to mirror the 'tortuous behaviour' of regimes or despots we once condemned them for.

If I could eradicate all these devils in one nano second I would, and I would not lose a moment's sleep over it.

Again - apologies to Brecht; 'Victory first, then morals'.

[Tom4784]

Try preaching those sentiments to the wives and mothers of fallen soldiers who were killed fighting a war on our behalf - a war which these Islamic Fundamentalist devils started unjustly.

Try preaching it to the grief-stricken parents of all the tiny innocent children killed or maimed in indiscriminate car bombings in civilian areas or in the deliberate targeting of schools and hospitals by these warped terrorists bastards.

For now - thanks to our soldiers and our intelligence and security services - we can both enjoy the freedom to express any opinion we want without fear of recrimination.

For how much longer, however, may truly depend on whether we get real and abandon our 'moral' shackles, or continue to fight inhuman, immoral devils wielding bombs and guns with fluffy pink slippers.

That sounds a lot like rationalising to me.

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

Because we must practice what we preach, also you can't pick or choose. Either you believe everyone deserves Human Rights or nobody does. It's a black and white issue, grey doesn't exist here.

The war in Iraq and everything that followed was done in the name of ending extremism and ending regimes like Saddam Hussein's and that ironically resulted in the rise of IS which even the Al Queda doesn't want to be associated with. It was the need for a blood price in the first place that created IS and if we're comitting human rights abuses ourselves then that just gives IS more power and arguments against the West to recruit people into their ranks.

[Niamh.]

That sounds a lot like rationalising to me.



Because we must practice what we preach, also you can't pick or choose. Either you believe everyone deserves Human Rights or nobody does. It's a black and white issue, grey doesn't exist here.

The war in Iraq and everything that followed was done in the name of ending extremism and ending regimes like Saddam Hussein's and that ironically resulted in the rise of IS which even the Al Queda doesn't want to be associated with. It was the need for a blood price in the first place that created IS and if we're comitting human rights abuses ourselves then that just gives IS more power and arguments against the West to recruit people into their ranks.

yup, very good point

[MTVN]

MTVN - I really do respect your passion and integrity, but we will never, ever agree on this subject.

You are correct in a lot of the points you make which would - essentially - mean that I am employing 'double standards' -- which I am.

The reasons for this is, that I am fanatically partisan about the UK and Christianity, and have also supported Israel from the time I was a schoolkid, and I am both increasingly angered, and sickened by these Islamic fanatics and their barbaric, murderous self-proclaimed agenda to conquer the world.

The terrorism, the senseless slaughter, the bombings and wars, will never ever stop until either the Islamic Fundamentalists are stopped -- forever -- or they win and fulfill their agenda, and if that happens, we will witness executions on such a scale that it will eclipse all the heinous slaughter of every evil regime and lunatic despot in history --- including Hitler, Pol Pot, Attila the Hun and Vlad the Impaler.

You simply cannot fight by the Marquis of Queensberry rules when the guy in the other corner is wielding a baseball bat, and you cannot appeal to the 'human' in non-humans, nor rely on the spirituality of the Godless, or try to negotiate with the fanatic who will not cede one inch of ground because he wholeheartedly believes that all 'ground' is Allah's by right.

So I simply do not care what levels we stoop to in order to eradicate these murderous demons, nor do I care how much we now have to mirror the 'tortuous behaviour' of regimes or despots we once condemned them for.

If I could eradicate all these devils in one nano second I would, and I would not lose a moment's sleep over it.

Again - apologies to Brecht; 'Victory first, then morals'.

Fair enough kirk. I think this is just obviously something where we both feel passionately enough about our different views to ever accept the others conclusions

[Creggle]

Because we must practice what we preach, also you can't pick or choose. Either you believe everyone deserves Human Rights or nobody does. It's a black and white issue, grey doesn't exist here.

The war in Iraq and everything that followed was done in the name of ending extremism and ending regimes like Saddam Hussein's and that ironically resulted in the rise of IS which even the Al Queda doesn't want to be associated with. It was the need for a blood price in the first place that created IS and if we're comitting human rights abuses ourselves then that just gives IS more power and arguments against the West to recruit people into their ranks.

Why is it black and white though? Because somebody happens to be a human? To some people it is grey and they have just as much right to see it like that. It's the decisions in life you choose to make, the actions you commit, that define the rights you are entitled to. There should be no reasoning, no negotiating and no mercy for terrorists. They deserve only death and suffering, which they themselves take great pleasure in inflicting on other people.

It wasn't a need for anything, it wasn't retaliation, it wasn't religion, it isn't brainwashing. IS and other fundamentalists are broken, worthless sacks of flesh that crave to hurt and maim other living creatures, they are psychopathic monsters and their religion is an excuse, it is their enabler. Give them any other guise to do what they do under, and they would of taken it.

Some people have that monster inside of them, some of them go through their lives never realising it, the rest, well... History speaks for itself.

[GiRTh]

wax70Qoykzk

[Tom4784]

Why is it black and white though? Because somebody happens to be a human? To some people it is grey and they have just as much right to see it like that. It's the decisions in life you choose to make, the actions you commit, that define the rights you are entitled to. There should be no reasoning, no negotiating and no mercy for terrorists. They deserve only death and suffering, which they themselves take great pleasure in inflicting on other people.

It wasn't a need for anything, it wasn't retaliation, it wasn't religion, it isn't brainwashing. IS and other fundamentalists are broken, worthless sacks of flesh that crave to hurt and maim other living creatures, they are psychopathic monsters and their religion is an excuse, it is their enabler. Give them any other guise to do what they do under, and they would of taken it.

Some people have that monster inside of them, some of them go through their lives never realising it, the rest, well... History speaks for itself.

Say what you will but it doesn't change the fact that it's a black and white issue. You either believe that everyone deserves Human Rights or you don't believe in Human Rights at all because picking and choosing who you think should have rights definitely falls under the latter.

The rest is just rationalising that I have no interest in, rationalising the need for a needless war is what gave rise to IS in the first place. The wars in the middle east have left everyone in a worse state than before. Rationalising bloodlust and hysteria have never led to anything good.

[Crimson Dynamo]

John Stewart, a tv comedian


George Bush, a president of the USA

:facepalm:

[Creggle]

Say what you will but it doesn't change the fact that it's a black and white issue. You either believe that everyone deserves Human Rights or you don't believe in Human Rights at all

Says who?

[kirklancaster]

Why is it black and white though? Because somebody happens to be a human? To some people it is grey and they have just as much right to see it like that. It's the decisions in life you choose to make, the actions you commit, that define the rights you are entitled to. There should be no reasoning, no negotiating and no mercy for terrorists. They deserve only death and suffering, which they themselves take great pleasure in inflicting on other people.

It wasn't a need for anything, it wasn't retaliation, it wasn't religion, it isn't brainwashing. IS and other fundamentalists are broken, worthless sacks of flesh that crave to hurt and maim other living creatures, they are psychopathic monsters and their religion is an excuse, it is their enabler. Give them any other guise to do what they do under, and they would of taken it.

Some people have that monster inside of them, some of them go through their lives never realising it, the rest, well... History speaks for itself.

:worship: Wow Creggle - you can be my mate. That's so brilliantly put.

[MTVN]

America doesn’t do torture. Or rather, where it’s found that a relatively small but misguided number of US officials have practised torture, it doesn’t try and defend it. Because if it does, at that point, America ceases to become America at all.

...

America is the country that nearly tore itself in two over the ending of segregation, and 40 years later elected a black man to the White House. America is the country that bombed Germany and Japan back into the stone age, and then helped rebuild them into two of the great powerhouse economies of the 20th century. America is the country that went to war with itself to keep men enslaved, and then placed itself at the forefront of every major progressive social change that defined the century that followed.

What America is not is a bunch of thugs with a bucket, a dirty towel and leg irons, and a misguided sense of patriotism and sadism in their hearts. America, however much her enemies may long to believe it, is not the Feinstein report.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/11285233/America-is-not-an-enemy-to-the-civilised-world-no-matter-what-its-critics-say.html

This article :flutter:

[Crimson Dynamo]

i mean you could say about jail

Its disgusting, locking people,up for 23 hours a day, in a tiny cell, terrible food, no contact with the outside world

are we as bad as the crims?

In the US they kill crims remember. kill them stone dead.

[Tom4784]

Says who?

Common sense? Logic? Take your pick.

It's hypocritical to believe otherwise. You can't pick and choose who gets their basic human rights and then say that you believe in Human Rights. It's all or nothing and that's all there is to it.

[Kizzy]

What about all the times we have condemned governments around the world for their abuse of human rights? What about all the times that the likes of Iran have been frozen out from the international community because of how they treat their enemies? What about the times we have even toppled regimes and gone to war because of the disregard shown to international law?

You give leeway to our security services to torture detainees then you had better allow the same for the Russians, the Iranians, the Lebanese, the Syrians etc. etc. All governments that have to face up to extremism daily and have their citizens lives constantly under threat - for Russia in Chechnya, for the others constantly having IS on their doorsteps if not already inside their homes. We used the clandestine torturous activity of the Gaddafi regime as an excuse to bomb it. We came inches away from doing the same in Syria. For years we have wagged our finger at Iran for how they have treated their enemies because you either respect international law and human rights or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose. We were better than the Iranians though, apparently. We were different. We had consigned those methods to the scrap heap long ago. The hypocrisy is eye stinging. The only saving grace is that it has been laid bare. And in that sense, yes the US is better than Iran, Russia etc. because it has not swept this under the carpet. It has actually restored some of my faith in the West and Britain should follow but we obviously won't.

If this report motivates more people to the extremist cause then that is on those who carried out the torture. It is not on those who brought it to light. You say it's necessary in the interests of freedom and democracy well I would say it flies in the face of everything that those terms are supposed to mean.

Because we are , we are , we are the west oi! oi! oi!

[kirklancaster]

Common sense? Logic? Take your pick.

It's hypocritical to believe otherwise. You can't pick and choose who gets their basic human rights and then say that you believe in Human Rights. It's all or nothing and that's all there is to it.

I think the key to this issue is in the descriptor - 'Human'.

By all accepted definitions of what makes us human - Intellect, Emotion, Spirituality, Morality, Compassion , Sociality - there is a definitive point at which a sentient being cannot be classified as 'Human' no matter how much that being anatomically or physiologically resembles a human.

As Creggle said earlier, the potential for what we regard as 'Evil' co-exists with the potential for 'Good' within all of us, but genuinely 'pure' Evil is a totally different entity which does not reside in the normal human, but is nonetheless something which has a very real existence.

Prisons all over the world confine monsters who by the very nature of their purely evil crimes cannot be classified as 'human'. Some of these include child killers who carried out the most inexplicable atrocities on their little victims prior to killing them. Yet, to compound their evil, these monsters smirk into the faces of the distraught parents of the victims and refuse, when begged by them, to reveal the whereabouts of their children's bodies so that they can be 'retrieved' and given a proper burial.

Are these purely evil bastards 'Human'?

On a grander scale, World history is littered with examples of genuinely pure Evil - from the Nazis to Pol Pot.

There can be no doubt that Hitler was a purely evil demon. But what of those who served him?

In one 'Death Factory' a young Jewish mother - guessing her imminent fate - desperately attempted to hide her baby beneath a pile of clothing. A young Nazi guard spotted her attempt and bayoneted the baby countless times - in front of the distraught mother - through the discarded clothing.

Was this purely evil bastard 'Human'?

Despite the fact that there are certain apologists who would answer: "Yes" to my questions, the answer is an irrefutable 'NO'.

An Islamic Fundamentalist plot to conquer the world by force is evil. The atrocities carried out by those Islamic Fundamentalists whose 'raison d'etre' is to realise the success of that plot, is pure evil and they, therefore, cannot ever be classified as 'Human' by any sane, rational person.

There is no word other than 'evil' to describe the cold blooded, calculated beheading of terrified innocent human beings. But - as in the aforementioned case of the serial killers who delight in refusing to reveal to the grief-stricken, pleading families of their little victims the whereabouts of their children's remains - it is the complete and utter pleasure which these bastards derive from such evil acts which compounds that evil and defines these 'Jihadist' monsters as purely evil 'non-humans'.

There can be no doubts. Pure evil exists. It exists in sentient beings who - whilst resembling humans - are irrefutably inhuman, not human, alien.

They do not qualify to be classified as 'Human' nor to be afforded the same considerations as 'Humans' - they are inhuman, sub-human, not human.

I contend, therefore that we recognise this distinction, accept it, and stop all thoughts or propositions that we treat these non human demons as human, and stop affording to them the same ‘Human Rights’ afforded to genuine humans.

They are not Human they are inhuman demons.

[kirklancaster]

Because we are , we are , we are the west oi! oi! oi!

The 'West' is far from some utopia, but I just wish that those who constantly decry it and deplore it - including certain immigrants - would just feck off and live in one of the freer, more civilised, more enlightened, more liberal countries in the East - Oh wait a moment - that's where most of the poor oppressed mites fled here from.

Oh well.

[user104658]

Common sense? Logic? Take your pick.

It's hypocritical to believe otherwise. You can't pick and choose who gets their basic human rights and then say that you believe in Human Rights. It's all or nothing and that's all there is to it.
Well, John Locke (the philosopher, rather than the "Lost" character named after him...) would disagree with you there. The basics being that one's human rights are protected by "social contract" and that if that one happens to break their end of the contract (by, say, being a serial killer, active sociopath, or indeed a terrorist) then they make the choice to tear up that contract and are therefore no longer protected by its terms (in other words, they are "fair game" for more or less anything.)

Of course;

- half of these people were only suspects and their arrests dubious so that shouldn't apply

- Most Western governments and their agents could be considered guilty of breaking the contract many times over (and therefore, theoretically, be fair game for attack without breaking the attackers contract...)

- or, you might just believe that we have or should have moved on from centuries-old social philosophy.

Of course this is a massive simplification, there are whole books, and books about books, on this... HOWEVER, worth noting, is that the US declaration of independence and large parts of the written constitution are based on Lockian philosophy, which might explain their often heavy hand. Also their obsession with "property", though that's another matter. Sort of.

[arista]

Well done the Lame Duck President
he says after the worse ever Terrorist attack
we did not know what was next
so we had to use methods,
some were wrong.




But at least he accepts it

[kirklancaster]

i mean you could say about jail

Its disgusting, locking people,up for 23 hours a day, in a tiny cell, terrible food, no contact with the outside world

are we as bad as the crims?

In the US they kill crims remember. kill them stone dead.

You are correct in your sentiments LT but - and I'm going slightly off topic - are you familiar with the British Penal System as it is now since partial privatisation?

The 'Centre Right' 'Think Tank' 'Reform' will tell you different from what I am going to tell you here, but they have their own capitalist-driven covert agenda, and are speaking pure bollocks.

Prisons now are glorified holiday camps. All thoughts of 'Rehabilitation' have long since been abandoned, but so too now have all pretense of 'Punishment'.

Among other 'official' perks, 'Prisoners' are allowed to wear their own clothing, have Sky Satellite TV, Lap tops and internet access, as well as access to luxuriously equipped gym facilities. But it is the 'unofficial' perks which 'prisoners' freely enjoy,at certain privately run prisons which are incredible and mind-blowing, and more so because although known about by the prison authorities, these 'perks' are ignored in order 'to prevent trouble erupting'.

Tennis balls which have been cut in half, stuffed with heroin and crack cocaine then glued back together have been regularly thrown over the walls at certain prisons, to be later collected by inmates and the contents sold for massive profits by drug dealing convicts within the prison. Drug taking at these prisons is a massive problem.

Prison staff have been aware of this practice, but as said, turn a blind eye for the reasons stated.

Cunning prisoners at these and other privately run prisons also ensure their drug supply from the outside by using the fact that the UK Courts System is also such a huge joke now.

Convicted shoplifters are guaranteed a jail sentence in the Magistrates Court by repeatedly continuing to shoplift - albeit these sentences leniently range from a few days to a few weeks - no matter how many times the offender continues to offend or how many previous convictions for shoplifting the offender has. It's all a laughable game at the tax-payers expense.

Certain shoplifters - ideally those with no drug convictions - are recruited by certain convicted prisoners and the shoplifter -- some only just freshly released from prison for shoplifting - are supplied by third parties with suitably packaged heroin or crack cocaine 'sausages' which he then pushes well up inside his rectum or ---'plugs'. He then goes straight out and shoplifts whilst ensuring that he gets caught in the act. The inevitable happens and he is sentenced to a very short jail term by the local magistrate, and once inside, he pulls out the 'plug' hands it over to his 'employer' and once released is paid by third parties on the outside. The con now has another supply of highly prized drugs which the sale of to other prisoners will net him thousands of pounds.

The freed shoplifter repeats the process.

Another illegal perk ignored by prison authorities are smuggled mobile phones. The majority of 'power prisoners' now have their own mobiles which they use to direct their criminal empires from within prison.

To this Government's credit, they are aware of these matters and others - though they might not detail as much - and they have reversed an earlier pledge to fully privatise prisons and have begun a process of removing contracts from certain private companies for the running of certain prisons and are returning them to state control.

They are being heavily criticized for this decision by the Howard League For Penal Reform and - as stated earlier - 'Reform' -- both of which have their own agenda for doing so.

Incidentally, my knowledge on this - as with my knowledge on Islamic 'Fifth Columnists' hails from the 'horse's mouths' - in this case, two prison officer friends themselves who work at two different, privately run prisons.

It's a nice old world 'innit'? :hehe:

[user104658]

Yeah, back in the old days when prisons were horrific places, there was far less crime. ...

I feel the need to explicitly point out, if this is not already clear, that the above is sarcasm and that in the past, let's say Victorian times when prison conditions were fairly awful, crime was still rife. As it is in countries where the prison systems are highly unpleasant e.g. many South American countries, like Brazil, which has problems with crime (both petty and organised) that makes crime in the UK seem paltry.

Not saying our prison systems are ideal BUT punitive imprisonment simply does not deter crime. It breaks people and all but ensures that non-violent petty criminals, when they are released, will have a tendency towards violence. It's a mistake. But a mistake that many people want to see, because people by their very nature are vengeful creatures, rather than problem solvers.

[Northern Monkey]

Never mind human rights.Western countrys need to defend themselves against these feckers blowing us up.If that means torture then torture away.If it means shooting,Blowing up or imprisoning whatever stops these worms killing us is good for me.

[Tom4784]

Never mind human rights.Western countrys need to defend themselves against these feckers blowing us up.If that means torture then torture away.If it means shooting,Blowing up or imprisoning whatever stops these worms killing us is good for me.

Except we tried that before and it ended up with IS taking power. If we use the same tactics against IS, then we'll just have a more extreme group rise from it's ashes. Brutality is not the answer since extremists will just use every drone strike and operation as recruitment material and stories like this will only make things worse.

Ideologies matter, if we're gonna advocate human rights and freedom then we must practice those ideals because the only way to keep these extremist groups down is to show the people of the middle east we aren't the monsters we're made out to be but that's hard to do when we're torturing people freely and using Drone strikes to kill groups of innocent people in the hopes of getting at a few terrorists. Our actions have led us to the IS crisis and history will only repeat itself if we are brutal in our approach to dealing with them.

[Nedusa]

:worship: Wow Creggle - you can be my mate. That's so brilliantly put.

So well put........Creggle, I think you caught the real essence of the debate in your post (above). These worthless sacks of flesh as you put it exist now only to inflict death and torture on innocent people and as such they forfeit all claims to "human" rights.

I think however we should uphold their "subhuman" rights and give these death worshipping savages the long slow painful lingering death they so clearly crave, and let them go into martydom screaming in righteous agony.




.

[Nedusa]

I think the key to this issue is in the descriptor - 'Human'.

By all accepted definitions of what makes us human - Intellect, Emotion, Spirituality, Morality, Compassion , Sociality - there is a definitive point at which a sentient being cannot be classified as 'Human' no matter how much that being anatomically or physiologically resembles a human.

As Creggle said earlier, the potential for what we regard as 'Evil' co-exists with the potential for 'Good' within all of us, but genuinely 'pure' Evil is a totally different entity which does not reside in the normal human, but is nonetheless something which has a very real existence.

Prisons all over the world confine monsters who by the very nature of their purely evil crimes cannot be classified as 'human'. Some of these include child killers who carried out the most inexplicable atrocities on their little victims prior to killing them. Yet, to compound their evil, these monsters smirk into the faces of the distraught parents of the victims and refuse, when begged by them, to reveal the whereabouts of their children's bodies so that they can be 'retrieved' and given a proper burial.

Are these purely evil bastards 'Human'?

On a grander scale, World history is littered with examples of genuinely pure Evil - from the Nazis to Pol Pot.

There can be no doubt that Hitler was a purely evil demon. But what of those who served him?

In one 'Death Factory' a young Jewish mother - guessing her imminent fate - desperately attempted to hide her baby beneath a pile of clothing. A young Nazi guard spotted her attempt and bayoneted the baby countless times - in front of the distraught mother - through the discarded clothing.

Was this purely evil bastard 'Human'?

Despite the fact that there are certain apologists who would answer: "Yes" to my questions, the answer is an irrefutable 'NO'.

An Islamic Fundamentalist plot to conquer the world by force is evil. The atrocities carried out by those Islamic Fundamentalists whose 'raison d'etre' is to realise the success of that plot, is pure evil and they, therefore, cannot ever be classified as 'Human' by any sane, rational person.

There is no word other than 'evil' to describe the cold blooded, calculated beheading of terrified innocent human beings. But - as in the aforementioned case of the serial killers who delight in refusing to reveal to the grief-stricken, pleading families of their little victims the whereabouts of their children's remains - it is the complete and utter pleasure which these bastards derive from such evil acts which compounds that evil and defines these 'Jihadist' monsters as purely evil 'non-humans'.

There can be no doubts. Pure evil exists. It exists in sentient beings who - whilst resembling humans - are irrefutably inhuman, not human, alien.

They do not qualify to be classified as 'Human' nor to be afforded the same considerations as 'Humans' - they are inhuman, sub-human, not human.

I contend, therefore that we recognise this distinction, accept it, and stop all thoughts or propositions that we treat these non human demons as human, and stop affording to them the same ‘Human Rights’ afforded to genuine humans.

They are not Human they are inhuman demons.

Couldnt agree more Kirk, an important distinction you make. We must remove all human thoughts which in the main are front loaded to emotions of love,peace,sympathy,empathy, reconciliation, understanding and forgiveness.

These inhuman creatures need to be despatched from this existance ASAP as they represent only pain, torture, suffering and Death

I think we should dispense with the occasional killing of these creatures, rather undertake mass killings on an almost industrial scale using ALL weapons available, a bit like how you would exterminate a large colony of vermin.

Same difference.





.

[Northern Monkey]

Except we tried that before and it ended up with IS taking power. If we use the same tactics against IS, then we'll just have a more extreme group rise from it's ashes. Brutality is not the answer since extremists will just use every drone strike and operation as recruitment material and stories like this will only make things worse.

Ideologies matter, if we're gonna advocate human rights and freedom then we must practice those ideals because the only way to keep these extremist groups down is to show the people of the middle east we aren't the monsters we're made out to be but that's hard to do when we're torturing people freely and using Drone strikes to kill groups of innocent people in the hopes of getting at a few terrorists. Our actions have led us to the IS crisis and history will only repeat itself if we are brutal in our approach to dealing with them.
So,If a terror suspect who has key information has been caught and is prepared to die before he gives any information about an attack or future attacks,Then what do you do?Just let him off?Or do you extract any information possible in order to save your citizens lives.
How could any leader just sit back and let terrorists kill hundreds or thousands of their people with no response?They would lose the confidence of the people very fast.
The first job of a president/prime minister should be the protection of its own people.
Letting them get away with murder will only encourage them to attack us more.
Leaders need to prevent attacks any way they can.These people will attack us wether we fight back or roll over and take it.I'd take fighting back any day.

[lostalex]

Wow!, A government spying agency lied. ****ing hell. SPIES LIE, OMFG. thank gawd we all know the truth now. or do we? :shrug: :hehe:

[kirklancaster]

Couldnt agree more Kirk, an important distinction you make. We must remove all human thoughts which in the main are front loaded to emotions of love,peace,sympathy,empathy, reconciliation, understanding and forgiveness.

These inhuman creatures need to be despatched from this existance ASAP as they represent only pain, torture, suffering and Death

I think we should dispense with the occasional killing of these creatures, rather undertake mass killings on an almost industrial scale using ALL weapons available, a bit like how you would exterminate a large colony of vermin.

Same difference.

.

:flowers::kiss: I love you. We are soooo right about these demons.

[Tom4784]

So,If a terror suspect who has key information has been caught and is prepared to die before he gives any information about an attack or future attacks,Then what do you do?Just let him off?Or do you extract any information possible in order to save your citizens lives.
How could any leader just sit back and let terrorists kill hundreds or thousands of their people with no response?They would lose the confidence of the people very fast.
The first job of a president/prime minister should be the protection of its own people.
Letting them get away with murder will only encourage them to attack us more.
Leaders need to prevent attacks any way they can.These people will attack us wether we fight back or roll over and take it.I'd take fighting back any day.

Like it's been said earlier in the thread, torture isn't even that effective or reliable since chances are the suspects being tortured will simply tell the torturer what they want to hear whether it's true or not but that doesn't matter is torture isn't about getting information, it's about bloodlust and sadism dressed up as a warped sense of justice.

I won't engage in silly hypothetical situations since we'll just go around in circles and they are pointless. I will say this though, I do hope our leaders, iin this situation, would be smarter than to go with your overly simplistic 'KILL 'EM ALL' strategy. If problems could be solved so easily through war then we'd be going to war every other week.

You can't make make martyrs out of extremists, you torture or kill them? Their allies will use their sacrifice to recruit more soldiers. Groups like IS need to be dealt with carefully lest their fall gives rise to a group that's far worse.

[Kizzy]

The 'West' is far from some utopia, but I just wish that those who constantly decry it and deplore it - including certain immigrants - would just feck off and live in one of the freer, more civilised, more enlightened, more liberal countries in the East - Oh wait a moment - that's where most of the poor oppressed mites fled here from.

Oh well.

Name one 'Liberal' country in the east.

[kirklancaster]

Name one 'Liberal' country in the east.

Exactly one of the points I was making via my sarcastic post Kizzy.

[lostalex]

Would you lie to protect the ones you love? I would.

That's not evil, that's human.

[kirklancaster]

Would you lie to protect the ones you love? I would.

That's not evil, that's human.

I totally agree Alex. They're being slagged for the actions they took in order to try to protect the ones complaining. :shrug:

[Tom4784]

I totally agree Alex. They're being slagged for the actions they took in order to try to protect the ones complaining. :shrug:

That's just more hysterical rationalising.

[arista]

That's just more hysterical rationalising.



Yes a Tube up your rectum
forcing you to tell the CIA
something you know feck all about
is America in the Shame

[kirklancaster]

Yes a Tube up your rectum
forcing you to tell the CIA
something you know feck all about
is America in the Shame

Yep. I do kinda feel sorry for the 93 'suspects' who did turn out to be terrorists if they had to suffer that kind of torture the poor bastards.... Can you imagine how terrified they must have been every time they heard the CIA approaching..... They wouldn't have known if it was a 'friend', or an 'enema'.....:cheer2:

[MTVN]

In 2004 the CIA even managed to torture two of its informants, according to the report. It says that "after both detainees had spent approximately 24 hours shackled in the standing sleep deprivation position, CIA Headquarters confirmed that the detainees were former CIA sources". Before being detained, the two CIA spies had tried to contact the agency again and again to say what they were doing and to provide intelligence.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/torture-it-didnt-work-then-it-doesnt-work-now-9923288.html

You couldn't make it up

[GiRTh]

Yhn8xEO-GOs

[arista]

Yhn8xEO-GOs


Yes she is a Tough Nut
can you see having Sex with her?


She said that on the Outnumbered (FoxNewsHD)
12PM USA and 5PM UK time

It was a great clip on the Daily Show.

http://i2.wp.com/www.wonderslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Andrea-Tantaros.jpg
Her Family came from Greece
but she is Tough
and Sexy

[GiRTh]

Yes she is a Tough Nut
can you see having Sex with her?


What are you talking about? Andrea Tantoros is a hateful republican hack. "We are awesome" is the genuine logic for right wing nut jobs
-bhl8bT7JXg
cmuuqqHLEKo

[lostalex]

Religion is a problem on both sides.

remember that Christians believe in a God that tortures people for all of eternity if he doesn't like them. Christians are taught that it's okay for God to torture people for all of eternity. Muslims believe the same thing, and Muslims also believe that it's okay to kill themselves because they will go to heaven and their victims will go to hell to be tortured for all eternity.

Religion is the problem.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/14/356510/default/v2/mail-2-372x497.jpg

[Niamh.]

You couldn't make it up

ffs

[lostalex]

I don't hate the CIA for this. they did the wrong thing, but they did it for the right reasons. They are not assholes, they are not sadists, they are not evil. They were honestly trying to protect us. but they went about it the wrong way.

Just like if a man steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. Stealing is wrong, but i can sympathize why he did it. He did the wrong thing for the right reasons.

[Nedusa]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/14/356510/default/v2/mail-2-372x497.jpg

I would prefer it if this headline did not have the words "quizzed on" in it and had an extra "d" after torture.






.

[Scarlett.]

Torture is just a very unreliable way of interrogating someone, you push someone to the edge to tell them what you want to hear. Picard says it best

eym6adS_rfY

[GiRTh]

uAAXJMcQGRU

Dick Cheney is crazier than Hannibal Lector.

[GiRTh]

iTtevLeDQcw

Interesting that Cheney and Rove are now claiming Bush knew everything. This could get ugly if someone decides to make a name for them self and attempt prosecutions

[kirklancaster]

I would prefer it if this headline did not have the words "quizzed on" in it and had an extra "d" after torture.

.:joker: I know what you mean.

[kirklancaster]

Religion is a problem on both sides.

remember that Christians believe in a God that tortures people for all of eternity if he doesn't like them. Christians are taught that it's okay for God to torture people for all of eternity. Muslims believe the same thing, and Muslims also believe that it's okay to kill themselves because they will go to heaven and their victims will go to hell to be tortured for all eternity.

Religion is the problem.

So my Christian God is really an American and the Director of the CIA, then Alex?

And as for: "Religion is a problem on both sides". I think you need to read up on this whole Islamic Fundamentalist terror war if you think that these demons only targets are Christians.

FFS - :crazy:

[lostalex]

So my Christian God is really an American and the Director of the CIA, then Alex?

And as for: "Religion is a problem on both sides". I think you need to read up on this whole Islamic Fundamentalist terror war if you think that these demons only targets are Christians.

FFS - :crazy:

i never said their only targets are christians. obviously they hate gay people and feminists and atheists too.

[kirklancaster]

QUOTE=Dezzy;7414037]Like it's been said earlier in the thread, torture isn't even that effective or reliable since chances are the suspects being tortured will simply tell the torturer what they want to hear whether it's true or not but that doesn't matter is torture isn't about getting information, it's about bloodlust and sadism dressed up as a warped sense of justice.

Yes, sometimes mistakes are made by our Intelligence Services, and the FBI and CIA, and yes, sometimes suspects being 'intensely interrogated' (torture' is such a nasty word) will say anything to gain respite, but to say that 'intense interrogation' is that effective or reliable is untrue, because sometimes it absolutely does yield vital information:

In August 1998, al-Qaeda terrorist Mohammed Sadiq Odeh was arrested in Pakistan. Under FBI ‘interrogation’, Odeh provided details of bin Laden's international terror network, as well as detailing bin Laden's role major bombing atrocities. Completely due to this vital information, the subsequent tracking down, arrest and interrogation of other terrorist suspects have yielded more equally vital information, and as a direct result, U.S. intelligence has since foiled many al-Qaeda plots, including one designed to disrupt millennium celebrations in December 1999.

How many thousands of lives have been saved and how many millions of dollars by Odeh's information?

Oh... And how sweet it is, that the end can sometimes justify the means.

I do confess to being a little puzzled though by how terms like; "bloodlust" and "sadism" are freely used as descriptors by certain people on here, when it comes to criticising Western efforts to save lives and defeat terrorists, but the same terms are never, ever used by the same people to describe the vile actions of terrorists.

Why, some people even have a 'hissy fit' if anyone dares to refer to terrorists as 'Monsters' or 'Demons' - even when they have just beheaded yet another bowed and beaten, terrified, innocent victim, or even when they have just cold-bloodedly executed over 200 terrified and innocent schoolchildren and set ablaze an innocent teacher or two.

I wonder why that is?

"I won't engage in silly hypothetical situations since we'll just go around in circles and they are pointless. I will say this though, I do hope our leaders, iin this situation, would be smarter than to go with your overly simplistic 'KILL 'EM ALL' strategy. If problems could be solved so easily through war then we'd be going to war every other week."

I think our leaders have been 'smarter' - in using 'intense interrogation' techniques to try to elicit vital information from suspected terrorists for example - but their efforts to cut short this 'war' by these and other techniques are being foiled and hindered by certain parties within the West who are criticising them for such 'smart' techniques.

It's a good job that we still live in a free, liberal democratic country which allows such voices of dissent - despite the evil efforts of the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists to conquer us and replace that democracy with their own oppressive and barbaric regime and their repressive medieval Sharia Law.

If the unthinkable does happen and they do win this war - try openly criticising the new regime then.

"You can't make make martyrs out of extremists, you torture or kill them? Their allies will use their sacrifice to recruit more soldiers. Groups like IS need to be dealt with carefully lest their fall gives rise to a group that's far worse."

I will say it again - the idea that dead terrorist Martyrs matter to anyone outside their own organisations, is pure B.S. propaganda. There is absolutely no evidence that they lead to any boost in recruitment. Nor is there any evidence that the memory of martyrs endures. Who remembers Bobby Sands?

All your statement does is weaken the West's position and aids the terrorists cause.

And what do you actually mean, when you write: "You can't make make martyrs out of extremists, (if) you torture or kill them? Their allies will use their sacrifice to recruit more soldiers.”

So not only must we not ‘intensely interrogate’ these terrorists we also cannot kill them. So are you proposing that in a battle when these terrorists are firing at our forces, or if a nutjack suicide bomber is driving a car towards them laden with half a ton of explosives, that our troops should throw bags of marshmallows at them for fear that the terrorists will recruit more terrorists if we “fight fire with fire’ and shoot to kill?

And perhaps you would kindly explain to me just what you mean by; “Groups like IS need to be dealt with carefully”?

What does that actually mean?

Finally, what do you actually mean by “Lest their fall gives rise to a group that’s far worse”?

Are you proposing; that we don’t ‘intensely interrogate’ them to extract vital information which could aid our defeat of them, and that we don’t kill them, and we treat them ‘carefully’, so that they do not fall?

If you don’t mean that, please explain what you do mean because I am genuinely confused..

[Tom4784]

QUOTE=Dezzy;7414037]Like it's been said earlier in the thread, torture isn't even that effective or reliable since chances are the suspects being tortured will simply tell the torturer what they want to hear whether it's true or not but that doesn't matter is torture isn't about getting information, it's about bloodlust and sadism dressed up as a warped sense of justice.

Yes, sometimes mistakes are made by our Intelligence Services, and the FBI and CIA, and yes, sometimes suspects being 'intensely interrogated' (torture' is such a nasty word) will say anything to gain respite, but to say that 'intense interrogation' is that effective or reliable is untrue, because sometimes it absolutely does yield vital information:

In August 1998, al-Qaeda terrorist Mohammed Sadiq Odeh was arrested in Pakistan. Under FBI ‘interrogation’, Odeh provided details of bin Laden's international terror network, as well as detailing bin Laden's role major bombing atrocities. Completely due to this vital information, the subsequent tracking down, arrest and interrogation of other terrorist suspects have yielded more equally vital information, and as a direct result, U.S. intelligence has since foiled many al-Qaeda plots, including one designed to disrupt millennium celebrations in December 1999.

How many thousands of lives have been saved and how many millions of dollars by Odeh's information?

Oh... And how sweet it is, that the end can sometimes justify the means.

I do confess to being a little puzzled though by how terms like; "bloodlust" and "sadism" are freely used as descriptors by certain people on here, when it comes to criticising Western efforts to save lives and defeat terrorists, but the same terms are never, ever used by the same people to describe the vile actions of terrorists.

Why, some people even have a 'hissy fit' if anyone dares to refer to terrorists as 'Monsters' or 'Demons' - even when they have just beheaded yet another bowed and beaten, terrified, innocent victim, or even when they have just cold-bloodedly executed over 200 terrified and innocent schoolchildren and set ablaze an innocent teacher or two.

I wonder why that is?

"I won't engage in silly hypothetical situations since we'll just go around in circles and they are pointless. I will say this though, I do hope our leaders, iin this situation, would be smarter than to go with your overly simplistic 'KILL 'EM ALL' strategy. If problems could be solved so easily through war then we'd be going to war every other week."

I think our leaders have been 'smarter' - in using 'intense interrogation' techniques to try to elicit vital information from suspected terrorists for example - but their efforts to cut short this 'war' by these and other techniques are being foiled and hindered by certain parties within the West who are criticising them for such 'smart' techniques.

It's a good job that we still live in a free, liberal democratic country which allows such voices of dissent - despite the evil efforts of the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists to conquer us and replace that democracy with their own oppressive and barbaric regime and their repressive medieval Sharia Law.

If the unthinkable does happen and they do win this war - try openly criticising the new regime then.

"You can't make make martyrs out of extremists, you torture or kill them? Their allies will use their sacrifice to recruit more soldiers. Groups like IS need to be dealt with carefully lest their fall gives rise to a group that's far worse."

I will say it again - the idea that dead terrorist Martyrs matter to anyone outside their own organisations, is pure B.S. propaganda. There is absolutely no evidence that they lead to any boost in recruitment. Nor is there any evidence that the memory of martyrs endures. Who remembers Bobby Sands?

All your statement does is weaken the West's position and aids the terrorists cause.

And what do you actually mean, when you write: "You can't make make martyrs out of extremists, (if) you torture or kill them? Their allies will use their sacrifice to recruit more soldiers.”

So not only must we not ‘intensely interrogate’ these terrorists we also cannot kill them. So are you proposing that in a battle when these terrorists are firing at our forces, or if a nutjack suicide bomber is driving a car towards them laden with half a ton of explosives, that our troops should throw bags of marshmallows at them for fear that the terrorists will recruit more terrorists if we “fight fire with fire’ and shoot to kill?

And perhaps you would kindly explain to me just what you mean by; “Groups like IS need to be dealt with carefully”?

What does that actually mean?

Finally, what do you actually mean by “Lest their fall gives rise to a group that’s far worse”?

Are you proposing; that we don’t ‘intensely interrogate’ them to extract vital information which could aid our defeat of them, and that we don’t kill them, and we treat them ‘carefully’, so that they do not fall?

If you don’t mean that, please explain what you do mean because I am genuinely confused..

More rationalising.

[Jack_]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/14/356510/default/v2/mail-2-372x497.jpg

Wait...is the Mail's campaign that they're claiming is their 'own' the one regarding Shaker Aamer? Are they seriously taking credit for a campaign that's been going for years? :yuk:

[lostalex]

More rationalising.

heaven forbid anyone try to be rational... how dare they!

[kirklancaster]

heaven forbid anyone try to be rational... how dare they!

:clap1::clap1::clap1: You saved me posting the same kind of response Alex.

[lostalex]

:clap1::clap1::clap1: You saved me posting the same kind of response Alex.

we're only here to love.

[kirklancaster]

we're only here to love.

:joker: