Gunman takes hostages in Sydney cafe

[MTVN]

Terrorists were today holding hostages in an armed siege in a cafe in Sydney where an ISIS flag was held up in the window.

It is unclear how many people are involved in the siege in a Lindt cafe in Martin Place but people could be seen with their hands pressed against the windows.

Martin Place has been shut down and scores of police are surrounding the building after the alarm was raised about 9.45am.

The Seven Network newsroom, which is in a building opposite the cafe, has also been evacuated.

Mia Burns, a news producer for Seven, tweeted: 'Hostages against the glass of Lindt café. Some are shaking and sobbing.'

Other buildings in Martin Place, including the nearby Westpac building, have been cleared.

It was alleged that Omarjan Azari, the 22-year-old Sydney man arrested on terrorism charges in September, was planning a public beheading in Martin Place.

The alleged terror plot, mentioned in a conversation between Australian terrorism recruiter in Syria, Mohammad Ali Barylei and Azari, involved selecting a member of the public at random, beheading them and then covering their body in a flag.

The whole incident was going to be filmed, and then used as propaganda for the ISIS cause.

Federal prosecutors said the alleged terror plot was ‘clearly designed to shock, horror and terrify the community’

Police Prosecutor Michael Allnutt said that Azari had made a threat which involved a ‘random selection of persons to execute’ during a telephone conversation with Baryalei.

Azari was arrested on September 18 and charged with preparing for an act of terrorism.

He is due in court this week for a bail application.

Martin Place is one of Sydney’s busiest streets and is at the centre of the CBD. The Lindt cafe where the hostages are being held specialises in chocolate and has a number of branches across the city.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2873855/Gunman-takes-hostages-cafe-Sydney.html#ixzz3Lv1opZxv
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/14/240DDD0D00000578-2873855-image-a-14_1418599334474.jpg

Christ :/

[T*]

Oh my god D:

[MTVN]

Live coverage: http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2014/dec/15/sydney-siege-reports-of-hostage-situation-inside-martin-place-cafe-live

[Benjamin]

Jesus Christ, now they are targetting Oz?

[T*]

I hope everyone will be okay omfg this is scary

[Vicky.]

****ing hell...

[Kizzy]

That waitress looks terrified, I really hope they are released safe.

[Ninastar]

horrific... i know its not a popular opinion here but i hope they get killed

i just have NO sympathy for these ****ing bastards

this will not end well.

[T*]

horrific... i know its not a popular opinion here but i hope they get killed

i just have sympathy for these ****ing bastards

this will not end well.

I hope the scum get killed too
those poor, innocent people :bawling: I hope everyone (except the terrorists) will be okay

[Ninastar]

i haVE NO SYMPATHY for them

what a bad typo

[T*]

My colleague Oliver Milman is down at Martin Place and says a witness saw a man with a gun enter the cafe and police quickly follow. This was about 9.45am. It was initially thought to be an armed robbery.

It is not known exactly how many hostages are inside but Channel Seven is reporting police sources as telling them 13. Four have been seen in the windows where they were made to stand with their hands up.
Omfg :unsure: D:

[Benjamin]

Sounds like one of the random hostages may be beheaded from some of the news sources I have read :(

[T*]

Sounds like one of the random hostages may be beheaded from some of the news sources I have read :(

holy **** D:
I hope no kids/babies are inside, Please let there be none omfg

[T*]

It is important to emphasise, despite some media reports, that there is no confirmation the black flag with white writing hung in the window is an Isis flag. It looks to have Arabic writing and we are standing by for a translation.
.

[T*]

Buses to the Sydney CBD are being diverted and the airspace over Sydney has been shut down.
.

[Ninastar]

im shaking... i feel sick

****ing cowards

[T*]

I'm scared

[Creggle]

I hope the aussie coppers fire hollow points, nice and painful.

[Drew.]

I dont think it is the ISIS flags :think:

[T*]

What if they attack the UK?

[T*]

jesus ****ing christ this is vile

[Ninastar]

What if they attack the UK?

well look what happened last week in the west midlands

the threat is here. it will happen soon enough.

thankfully our defence seems to be better than them

who knows how long it will last though

[T*]

My colleague Michael Safi reports the flag in the cafe window appears to bear the Shahada: “There is no god but the God, Muhammad is the messenger of God”.

He reports:

The flag that hostages appear to have been forced to hold up in the window of the Lindt Cafe in Martin Place is not the Islamic State flag - but that isn’t to say that Isis is not involved in today’s incident.
The flag appears to bear the Shahada, an Islamic creed which reads: “There is no god but the God, Muhammad is the messenger of God”.
It’s a perfectly benign symbol and appears across the Islamic world, including on the Saudi Arabian flag. But it has also been embraced by jihadi groups such as Jabhat Al-Nusra, an Al-Qaeda affiliate currently fighting in Syria.
Two Queensland men were arrested in September for allegedly trying to enter Syria to fight with the group, or facilitate the entry of others. Having said that, Jabhat Al-Nusra have not been known to have the capacity or inclination to carry out terror attacks outside Syria.
.

[T*]

well look what happened last week in the west midlands

the threat is here. it will happen soon enough.

thankfully our defence seems to be better than them

who knows how long it will last though

It's scary, what if it happens close to home like in Liverpool 1 or the trafford centre, it's horrid as I could be put in one of these situations.

I know its probably not going to but the risk is there, it's vile

[Creggle]

It's scary, what if it happens close to home like in Liverpool 1 or the trafford centre, it's horrid as I could be put in one of these situations.

I know its probably not going to but the risk is there, it's vile

This is exactly what the cowards want, they want you to be terrified, don't worry about it and don't give them what they want.

[Kazanne]

It's on SKY news live now,bloody horrific situation

[T*]

My colleague Calla Wahlquist is at Martin Place, where a cafe is under siege in Sydney with a flag with Arabic writing has been hung in the window. She says a man who appears to be a priest has been escorted into the building..

[T*]

Live stream:
VYlQJbsVs48

[T*]

AAP is filing footage from Martin Place where police have been evacuating buildings and moving people away from the siege.

id9g0uKHqL0

[Ninastar]

got a ****ing job interview tomorrow and now i wont be able to sleep

FFS

[T*]

A bit of background on Martin Place in Sydney where a cafe is under siege with staff and customers taken hostage by people who hung a black flag with white writing in the window:

Martin Place is the business and banking centre of Sydney.

The Reserve Bank of Australia is on Martin Place, while the state Parliament House sits up the top of the Martin Place on Macquarie Street. Government ministers have their offices in nearby in Governor Macquarie Tower – buildings which they share with Sydney’s top law firms. Channel Seven has a recording studio in the middle of Martin Place and the high end retailers – including those housed in the historic GPO building - are clustered towards the George Street end.

At night Martin Place bars are full of bankers, lawyers, politicians, their advisers and the media. Likewise – during the day – coffee shops such as Lindt are popular meeting spots. - from Brigid Delaney.

[T*]

There are worries that the area would of been jam packed as it currently is summer holiday in Aus

[Drew.]

Can you tell me what the scene is currently like outside of the cafe Tom

[T*]

Can you tell me what the scene is currently like outside of the cafe Tom

All windows of the cafe have people looking outside of them i think
for more info click this sky news live feed
VYlQJbsVs48

[Kazanne]

Another police response at The Opera House apparently after suspicious package found

[Locke.]

It's scary, what if it happens close to home like in Liverpool 1 or the trafford centre, it's horrid as I could be put in one of these situations.

They know not to mess with us, southport is more likely

[T*]

SKY NEWS is saying the hostage takers want to talk to the prime minister, Tony Abbott, live on air on radio and has set explosive devices around the city

[T*]

They know not to mess with us, southport is more likely

Why would you even say that? D:

[GypsyGoth]

I just put in on the news :sad:

I hope they use sometype of knockout gas and save the hostages.

[Drew.]

This is going to go on for bloody ages

[King Gizzard]

They're surely going to have to pay a ransom whatever that may be, they can't have people dying on live television coverage

[GypsyGoth]

I work in a cafe, this is mental.

[T*]

y colleague, Shalailah Medhora, is at parliament house in Canberra. She reports:

Just spoke to the Speaker’s office re: Parliamentary security. They beefed up security in October, adding armed officers inside the building as well as outside. They’ll take advice from security agencies as to whether they need to increase security today - so far they’re sticking with the security they’ve already got. Speaker Bronwyn Bishop’s office reiterates: “Parliament House is safe”..

[T*]

The Deputy Prime Minister’s office has refuted reports Sydney’s airspace is closed. The airspace over Sydney CBD is not in shut down. There are police helicopters in the air so air traffic is being rerouted accordingly..

[T*]

From social media:
Unconfirmed: It appears the terrorist is wearing a backpack and vest. Speculation that he is wearing a bomb and/or a Kevlar vest

[Ninastar]

I work in a cafe, this is mental.

my god...

thats so crazy, i didnt think of that

[Cal.]

This is awful.

[GypsyGoth]

my god...

thats so crazy, i didnt think of that


I feel ill, it's so horrible. I totally agree with you, these terrorists are savages, there's no reasoning with them. I really hopes this ends well, but I fear that won't happen.

[Drew.]

Any survivors should be demanding free Lindt chocolate for life

[T*]

Any survivors should be demanding free Lindt chocolate for life

It's not Lindt's fault though.

[Ninastar]

I feel ill, it's so horrible. I totally agree with you, these terrorists are savages, there's no reasoning with them. I really hopes this ends well, but I fear that won't happen.

it makes me feel sick too

its a chocolate cafe

whats the bet that there are children there?

i cant stop shaking.

[T*]

We have some images from Martin Place where a cafe is under siege. A flag bearing Arabic writing, believed to be the Shahadah, has been hung in the window.
http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/12/15/1418603108735/34c93dad-1ffe-4270-8109-da320f4c7e2d-620x372.jpeg
TV Pics showsLindt Chocolate Cafe siege Sydney Australiabelieved IS siege holding hostages in a coffee chocolate cafe with armed police in attendancePic supplied by Pixel 8000 Ltd Photograph: pixel8000/C9 supplied by pixel 8000 ltd
http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/12/15/1418603067634/a1c0c8aa-8aad-4aa7-a4a3-d76cb29106ba-620x372.jpeg
TV Pics showsLindt Chocolate Cafe siege Sydney Australiabelieved IS siege holding hostages in a coffee chocolate cafe with armed police in attendancePic supplied by Pixel 8000 Ltd Photograph: pixel8000/C9 supplied by pixel 8000 ltd

[T*]

it makes me feel sick too

its a chocolate cafe

whats the bet that there are children there?

i cant stop shaking.

It's school holidays too

[T*]

There was just a woman describing how they are being evacuating- They have left everything behind (eg cars) and are taking them to a point where they can be away from the area

[T*]

live stream link again VYlQJbsVs48

[T*]

Prime Minister Tony Abbott issues statement

Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, has issued a statement about the siege. The National Security Committee of Cabinet has convened for briefings.

New South Wales Police and the Australian Federal Police are currently responding to a reported hostage-taking incident in Martin Place in Sydney.

I have spoken with NSW Premier Mike Baird and offered him all possible Commonwealth support and assistance.

The National Security Committee of Cabinet has also convened for briefings on the situation.

This is obviously a deeply concerning incident but all Australians should be reassured that our law enforcement and security agencies are well trained and equipped and are responding in a thorough and professional manner.

We will provide regular updates as further information becomes available..

[andybigbro]

This is really bad! :sad:

Why can some people be so evil!!!
I hope they all get out safe!

[T*]

Nathan Grivas works in the Lindt Cafe and arrived for work just after the siege started. He told my colleague Oliver Milman he saw one of his colleagues pressed up against the window.

“It was already locked [when he arrived]. I didn’t get a good look at them, as soon as I saw the gun all I wanted to do was get out,” he said.

He said he thought one of the hostages looked at him.

“Lucky i didn’t start at 9 today. Hopefully they’ll be okay.”.

[T*]

New South Wales premier, Mike Baird, has issued a statement:

All my thoughts and prayers are with those members of the public affected by the situation in Martin Place and the NSW Police who are trained to deal with these events.

I have spoken to Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione and have full confidence the NSW Police are working effectively to resolve the situation.

I will provide further information as appropriate..

[T*]

Lindt Australia CEO says that there is about 40-50 people including customers and workers- and there is more businesses on upper levels

[T*]

My colleague, Calla Wallaquist, spoke to a woman evacuated from Channel 7 studios as the siege started:

Mieke Buchan told Guardian Australia she was preparing to go on Channel 7’s Morning Show for a guest segment this morning when the broadcaster’s live feed started showing footage of the siege.

“I looked up and the live feed was coming in of hostages pushed up against the window, looking terrified,” she said.
“The first direction (from police) was that we all had to keep clear of the windows, and them we were evacuated and told to move back 100 metres, then some very concerned police made us move back 100 more.
“I have been to some fairly scary counties, but there’s something about it being (in Sydney)...
“Look at me, I’m still shaking.”.

[T*]

first pic of another person inside- may be a gunman and has a bandana with arabic text on it
http://i.imgur.com/L9umYLA.png

[Drew.]

Seeing the peoples faces who are responsible is always the strangest/scariest parts of things like this

[T*]

New South Wales police have issued a statement saying they are trying to make contact with the people inside the cafe:

There is a police operation underway at Martin Place. Police and emergency services have responded and a number of streets around the area have been closed. The Martin Place train station is also shut.

Police are dealing with an armed incident and specialist officers are attempting to make contact those inside a café.

Some nearby offices have been evacuated as a precaution. Anyone else in the area encompassing Hunter, George, Elizabeth and Macquarie streets bordering Martin Place is directed to remain indoors and away from open windows. Anyone in the vicinity but outside that area is free to leave their buildings.

Police urge members of the public to remain calm and note that an appropriate police presence is in place.

Police urge the media to be responsible in their reporting. Speculation can cause unnecessary alarm. .

[T*]

I am seeing a lot of people tweeting/asking about the supposed police raids taking place in Lakemba at the same time as the siege. Ray Hadley, a conservative presenter with 2GB, said raids of homes in Lakemba, which has a large Muslim population, were taking place now.

Sources have told my colleague, Michael Safi, there are no raids underway in that suburb. About 20 police are touring the Lakemba mosque as part of a police induction day, which may have been the source of those reports.
.

[T*]

things are apparently calming down in terms of evacuating people

[T*]

they are currently trying to make contact

[T*]

Prime minister, Tony Abbott, will address reporters in Canberra at 12.30pm..

[letmein]

It's not Lindt's fault though.

Unless they hired the bastard.

[Jords]

bloody scary

[T*]

Unless they hired the bastard.


Not funny?

[Scarlett.]

This is pretty worrying, I hope they manage to defuse the situation.

[Northern Monkey]

Lets hope those snipers take them out quickly and efficiently.Thank god we have the SAS if anything like this goes down here,They don't mess about with stuff like this.

[Scarlett.]

Lets hope those snipers take them out quickly and efficiently.Thank god we have the SAS if anything like this goes down here,They don't mess about with stuff like this.

Wouldn't be safe to do that yet, especially with the Opera House being evacuated, they could be working with others.

Reuters reports that the US has evacuated its consulate in Sydney, which is located close to the scene of the siege. The consulate has also urged US citizens to "maintain a high level of vigilance and take appropriate steps to enhance your personal security".

BBC News live updates

[letmein]

Not funny?

It wasn't meant to be.

[arista]

first pic of another person inside- may be a gunman and has a bandana with arabic text on it
http://i.imgur.com/L9umYLA.png



Yes they need to kill him
3 hours gone so far

[Ammi]

The consensus translation for the bandana is: “We sacrifice ourselves for you, O Muhammad.” Though this, too, is contested, with other suggesting “Sacrifice” could also be interpreted as “Here for you”

[Ammi]

3m ago
04:39


People seen running out of Lindt cafe


It appears three people have fled from the Lindt cafe. One staff member and what appears to be two customers were seen running from the cafe while police stood out the front with weapons drawn.

[arista]

3m ago
04:39


People seen running out of Lindt cafe


It appears three people have fled from the Lindt cafe. One staff member and what appears to be two customers were seen running from the cafe while police stood out the front with weapons drawn.


Thats good

[Ammi]

..it's reporting that 5 in total now have escaped...

[Ammi]

18m ago
06:45



Channel 10 is the third media outlet saying they have been contacted by hostages in the Lindt cafe. The hostages said the offender has two demands:

1. They want to speak with Australian prime minister, Tony Abbott.

2. They want an Isis flag brought to the cafe

[Ninastar]

what was the gunfire about? i havent read anything about someone being killed

[arista]

what was the gunfire about? i havent read anything about someone being killed


No Deaths Yet

[Ninastar]

No Deaths Yet

Wow...

How lucky

[Natalie.]

How worrying and upsetting :( hope no one gets hurt

[arista]

Wow...

How lucky


Depends if he does not care if he dies
at the moment he using a mannequin
as a shield. (does he have mental problems)


The Police would have found out a great deal after
the 5 escaped.

Has he got any bombs?



Its on Facebook - his demands
but Police are keeping it off broadcast (some woman cop down there -on SkyNewsHD)
as they know so much more

One reporter said can you confirm
he wanted to get into the the Reserve Bank , first.
the Cop said no confirm



Lorna from SkyNewsHD
is down there - what luck
could be on a break,
then SkyNews Australia
could say --- we will give you a Live truck.
extra bonus in pay
http://capitalcaptures.com/L001/LornaDcc001.jpg


http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/15/356578/default/v1/cegrab-20141215-060319-139-1-762x428.jpg


http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/15/356592/default/v2/2014-12-15t065427z-1024840182-gm1eacf14c901-rtrmadp-3-australia-security-1-762x428.jpg
Yes Love , your are safe now

[Samm]

Poor people

[kirklancaster]

Why are you all so shocked, surprised, horrified?

Do you all think that I invest precious time in putting long posts on various related threads on here because I'm some type of obsessive, anti-Muslim cretin who has 'nothing better to do'?

This will never stop.
Every country in the world is their target.
Innocent civilians, women and children are their targets.
No life is sacred to them.

We cannot reason with them.
We cannot appease them.
We cannot pacify them.

They do want money and there is no 'ransom' which we can pay because none is being sought by them, except one - the total capitulation by our democratically elected governments, a total submission to Islam by our people, and a total acceptance of a miserable existence of life under Sharia Law -- for those who are not executed first because they are deemed by these extremists as too 'offensive' to Allah and too 'infidel' to live.

This is not a 'Movie' which is 'coming to a cinema near you soon' - it's reality, but it is a reality which is definitely coming to a town or city near you soon nonetheless.

It's here. It's happening. It's real. Better get 'used' to it.

Millions of pounds spent on 'extra security', the killing of a lone Jihadist gumnan, or the capture of a few Islamic Fundamentalist plotters living right among us in our cities and suburbs, is all worthy and welcoming, but is merely alleviation of the symptoms, not addressing the evil cause of this terminal disease.

That cause is Islamic Fundamentalism.

But it is no great secret.

Their 'Hate' preachers have been screaming it from dais and rostrums within virtually every city in the UK for decades. We have ignored or tolerated it.

Their jihadists have been practising it on our city streets increasingly over the past few years - the accosting and intimidation of 'non Muslim' passers by, the slaying of off duty soldiers and innocent civilians. We are shocked by each individual incident -- but separated by space and time (like my helium balloon analogy in another thread) we do not 'join the dots', do not pay heed to the very real underlying meaning of the links, and each individual 'shocking' incident becomes yesterday's news as we return our attention to coping with life's other more mundane demands.

Their long ensconced 'fifth columnist' agents have - covertly, almost imperceptibly - been implementing parts of their 'Grand Plan' for decades in the UK - changes to our Western Democratic liberal way of life on all levels -- to policy in schools, local government, National Government, even our traditions and customs. But viewed independently and separated by space and time (like my helium balloon analogy in another thread) these changes seem so trivial that we do not 'join the dots', do not pay heed to the very real underlying meaning of the links, do not 'see the big picture' which such seemingly insignificant changes are but part of.

This isn't fantasy. It's fact.

And the really sad thing is - that we cannot win.

We cannot win while ever we continue to treat the inhuman, barbaric demons behind these atrocities as human, and while ever we continue to shackle ourselves with misguided oh so 'civilised' and noble policies in dealing with these insane murderers.

To quote Capone (Robert De Niro) in the film 'The Untouchables':

"When you got an all-out prizefight, you wait until the fight is over, one guy is left standing. 'N' that's how you know who won."

And to bastardise the words of Malone (Sean Connery) from the same film:

"Ain't that just like a Westerner - Brings a knife to a gunfight".

[arista]

[We cannot win while ever we continue to treat the inhuman, barbaric demons behind these atrocities as human, and while ever we continue to shackle ourselves with misguided oh so 'civilised' and noble policies in dealing with these insane murderers. ]


It will just be kept secret
more.
No Documents
New Secret Underground places.


Its 7:34PM there now
Lorna Live on SkyNewsHD

[T*]

I'm so glad some have escaped but I'm shocked and saddened this is still going on

[Crimson Dynamo]

What if they attack the UK?

its one guy in a cafe in sydney. population of oz is around 20,000,000

[Kizzy]

Yes let's keep some perspective or you'll have all manner of conspiracy theorists writing off a huge swathe of the world.

[arista]

I'm so glad some have escaped but I'm shocked and saddened this is still going on


But he will have to sleep

its now 10PM there

[Crimson Dynamo]

But he will have to sleep

its now 10PM there

he will probably have amphetamines

[arista]

he will probably have amphetamines


Yes they best get a far sniper to shoot him in the head

[MTVN]

The Australian authorities seem to be playing this calmly and sensibly at least, preparing now for it to go on into Tuesday morning and possibly longer

[arista]

The Australian authorities seem to be playing this calmly and sensibly at least, preparing now for it to go on into Tuesday morning and possibly longer


Yes I still say Shoot him in the Head by a Sniper
to show the world they do not want prisoners
set a Great Example

Like when we killed the wrong bloke
in the tube will multi shots (2005)
that scared future terrorists for a time

[Kizzy]

BBC2 have coverage now.

[T*]

According to France 24, there is now a hostage situation in Belgium with 4 people but there is no terror link

[T*]

Belgium siege confirmed- Four armed men take hostage in Belgian city of Ghent

[T*]

Sky News in its rolling coverage is speaking now to a Sydney Muslim community leader, Jamal Rifi, who says NSW Police are fully aware of the identity of the hostage taker. Rifi says he personally is aware of the man’s identity. The gunman has not yet been named..

[kirklancaster]

Quote: Scrooge: its one guy in a cafe in sydney. population of oz is around 20,000,000


It's one more incident of a thousand other incidents - but is trivialised, minimised, and marginalised because it is viewed in splendid isolation, separated as it is by space and time, from the other linked incidents.

QUOTE=ArchAngel;7420073]Yes let's keep some perspective or you'll have all manner of conspiracy theorists writing off a huge swathe of the world.[/QUOTE]


My 'conspiracy theory' owes more to 'objectivism' than relativism or solipsism, and though no theory can ever be 'proven' - not even scientific ones - an ever increasing preponderance of substantive evidence does 'justify' my 'theory'.

To ignore given substantive evidence in order to deny the likely probability of a given theory being correct because it does not fit in with your own view is solipsistic because you are - in essence - creating your own reality.

And as for: " you'll have all manner of conspiracy theorists writing off a huge swathe of the world." -- it is not 'conspiracy theorists' who are doing that - it is the Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists whose Master Plan this 'conspiracy theorist' is trying so honestly and passionately to raise awareness of.

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
--Aldous Huxley

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/15/240EF27A00000578-2873855-image-a-191_1418622477783.jpg

[arista]

The 49 year old is a Sex Offender and a Iranian


Live CNN America

[Crimson Dynamo]

The 49 year old is a Sex Offender and a Iranian


Live CNN America

wow

Its a wonder we did not have him over in the UK

sounds like the perfect immigrant profile

:idc:

[Cal.]

Any updates?

[arista]

Any updates?


Its on our CNN Ch now
Live from America


And SkyNewsHD.


He is a Loner
and claims he was tortured
his Name is Man Haron Manis

[Northern Monkey]

SAS would've had this guy dead and those hostages free by now.

[T*]

The 49 year old is a Sex Offender and a Iranian


Live CNN America

I saw that, He had chains around his neck and a sign
He was apparently on bail

[arista]

SAS would've had this guy dead and those hostages free by now.


Yes but they may not use them
in this case
no deaths yet
just a confused Iranian

[arista]

I saw that, He had chains around his neck and a sign
He was apparently on bail


Yes the Worst type to have
as he has so many Issues


Maybe its best he shoots his own Head

[Crimson Dynamo]

sniper needs to end this

[T*]

Haron Monis is this gunmans name

[MTVN]

Very much an unhinged individual carrying out a lone wolf attack by the sounds of it then

[arista]

Very much an unhinged individual carrying out a lone wolf attack by the sounds of it then


http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/15/356695/default/v1/sh-pic1-1-762x428.jpg
Sheikh Man Haron Monis, aged 49.

http://news.sky.com/story/1392286/sydney-cafe-siege-gunman-is-named


For Sure

[T*]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/15/356695/default/v1/sh-pic1-1-762x428.jpg
Sheikh Man Haron Monis, aged 49.

http://news.sky.com/story/1392286/sydney-cafe-siege-gunman-is-named


For Sure

That's the hat/so called bandana he was wearing in the cafe
he gonna be put away for a long time..

[T*]

5 or 6 hostages just escaped

[T*]

So glad

[billy123]

The hostages are uploading videos to you tube under the direction of the hostage taker.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ea1_1418646267

[T*]

That brings the total of Hostages escaped to about 11-ish

[T*]

One of the hostages resembles the characteristics of the person beind the gunman and has stopped him
He is not the man behind it and he is going free

[T*]

544508304223789057
544509898420015105

[T*]

Some hostages have been filmed running from the cafe with hands in the air, towards police officers.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/12/15/1418656137169/3a704c55-6c64-45ff-8b80-48b2dc832f56-620x287.png

[T*]

My colleague Helen Davidson is at the scene. She reports:

A few minutes ago there was a loud bang and a group of people ran out of the cafe, including at least one man with his hands up.

Other reporters say they saw five to seven people who looked like hostages. I can confirm at least one amid a group who might have been police.

It is not know exactly what the cause of the bang was – whether it was gunshot, or flash bangs, or an explosion.

The scene appears to be calm again now..

[T*]

Something is happening- Loud gunfire

[T*]

Alarm is going on

[T*]

They are calling for ambulance crews, there has been an injury apparently

[Ninastar]

Surely they hVe ambulances on stand by?

[T*]

544510802573541376

[billy123]

They are calling for ambulance crews, there has been an injury apparentlyWho are you talking to?

[T*]

Surely they hVe ambulances on stand by?

they do

[T*]

544510619949363202

[T*]

Who are you talking to?

Im saying what is happening

[T*]

There was an explosion and I'm sure i have heard screams

[T*]

Very dramatic turn of events

[Kazanne]

It's on Sky news and most news channels I would think

[T*]

There have been two more loud bangs and some yelling. There is a guy in a bomb disposal suit. Now gunfire.

People are coming out, they’re getting people out.

There’s a bomb disposal guy on the scene. Cops are gathering near the door. They’re going in.

A lot of yelling. The dark-suited guys have gone in, there’s a lot of smoke coming out.

We can smell the gunfire now. More gunfire. Another shot, five seconds more gunfire.

A lot of movement near Philip Street, where the entrance is. Another group of people coming out.

Channel 7 TV is saying at least one person shot and fighting for their life.

Officers throwing grenades seem to have night vision goggles on.
.

[T*]

It's on Sky news and most news channels I would think

Indeed

[T*]

These actions are because the police have deemed the hostages to be in mortal danger

[T*]

They’re bringing in three stretchers with paramedics.

There are reports that one police officer has been hurt, but we cannot verify that at this point. I will bring you more on that as we hear it..

[T*]

544512295062089728

[T*]

544513201262452736

[MTVN]

:/ will be a miracle if no innocent life is lost by the sounds of it

[T*]

At least four people thought to have been injured

[T*]

There are large groups of people emerging from the building. They all look like emergency services.

There’s one person on a stretcher, lying on their side.

At least four people have been wheeled out on trolleys, one appearing to be having CPR performed on them..

[arista]

Will they locate the Bombs in time

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/15/356708/default/v3/evs-xtaccess-15-dec-2014-cam-c-15h16m05s00-1-480x360.jpg

[T*]

544513858799280129

[T*]

bomb disposal unit (robot) entering building

[T*]

544512990213447681

[billy123]

The noise will have been flashbangs not gunfire.
The police weapons would not have made noise and flashes like that.

[T*]

Pictures are coming through now of the hostages who fled the scene around 20 minutes ago. It is not clear whether they were freed or escaped.
http://i.guim.co.uk/media/w-620/h--/q-95/97dfda5bfc4fa36f7916dbb45fcbd79705f50d52/0_0_2597_1558/1000.jpg

[T*]

The noise will have been flashbangs not gunfire.

most likely

[T*]

it is 2:30 am in Sydney right now

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/15/2411F75100000578-0-image-a-63_1418657253429.jpg

[T*]

Helen Davidson in Martin Place says a bomb disposal robot is now going into the building.,

[T*]

544515196895514625

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/15/2411ADB000000578-2873855-image-m-60_1418655053588.jpg
He has been there since 1996
a fecking trouble maker

[T*]

544515446100090881

[T*]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B46B5L3CMAEoKap.jpg:large

[Scarlett.]

I hope the got all the hostages out safely

[MTVN]

Steady on with the second by second updates Tom

[arista]

The noise will have been flashbangs not gunfire.
The police weapons would not have made noise and flashes like that.



Yes Flashbangs are good

[Scarlett.]

87-9pAaG39A

[T*]

There has been a flurry of activity in the last 25 minutes – here’s what we know:

- Several hostages – thought to number five to seven – have fled the cafe.
-Loud bangs have been heard and police confirm live ammunition has been used.
-Other people have been removed from the scene, some on stretchers, apparently needing medical attention. There are unconfirmed reports that four hostages have been injured.
-A bomb disposal robot has gone into the building.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B46BYP5CUAEIGmF.jpg

[Kazanne]

Steady on with the second by second updates Tom

It is a tad annoying.

[arista]

Steady on with the second by second updates Tom


Yes he is far worse than me

[T*]

Sky News is repeating the same things over and over again, They seem to be reluctant to update

[T*]

Australia’s 7 News is reporting seven people carried away on stretchers, of whom five were being treated by paramedics as they were being moved..

[arista]

Tom post New Photos more

[T*]

Reports that the gunman has been shot dead are emerging on BBC news

[arista]

Better Dead
the money and Harm he has cost

[T*]

It is a tad annoying.

I'm just updating so people know whats happening :shrug:

[T*]

Police forming a line in front of media
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B46BrxrCYAE5box.jpg:large

[arista]

I'm just updating so people know whats happening :shrug:


Better to Edit and add to the post before

[Scarlett.]

Police have announced the siege is over.

[T*]

Police have announced the siege is over.

thank ****

[T*]

Better to Edit and add to the post before

okay

[T*]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B46CW2ICUAAyNKJ.jpg
Sheer number of emergency workers amazing

[Ninastar]

Reports that the gunman has been shot dead are emerging on BBC news

thank god.

[Scarlett.]

Reports that 2 dead 3 injured :(

[T*]

544518337498058753

[T*]

Reports that 2 dead 3 injured :(

Oh no :(
So near christmas as well, I feel for their families :sad:

[Ninastar]

awful... hopefully they werent tortured. thats just horrific. ugh

[Cal.]

:sad:

[T*]

NSW Police say they cannot confirm breaking reports that two people have died in the Sydney siege, saying all they can confirm is that the siege is over.
There is hope

[Scarlett.]

There is hope

Aye, I'm hoping it turns out to be a false report.

[Ninastar]

lets hope so... maybe they were just unconscious

[T*]

Police have confirmed that the siege is over but there has been no update on the status of the hostage-taker(s) or the hostages.

We do know that several people were removed from the scene on stretchers..

[arista]

Reports that 2 dead 3 injured :(


The PM should have told them to go in
more early on.




Of Course Flasbangs ideal for nightime

[arista]

Sky News is repeating the same things over and over again, They seem to be reluctant to update


Stop Moaning


I had 7 Live News Ch's
all on all doing the same loop


Its Fecking normal

[Marsh.]

Stop Moaning


I had 7 Live News Ch's
all on all doing the same loop


Its Fecking normal

:unsure:

[Ninastar]

someone died from cardiac arrest apparently... fking awful.

[arista]

someone died from cardiac arrest apparently... fking awful.



Yes those Flashbangs
could set one off
The Police had Eye Gear to protect them

[T*]

Stop Moaning


I had 7 Live News Ch's
all on all doing the same loop


Its Fecking normal
I said that ages ago, bye
someone died from cardiac arrest apparently... fking awful.

Oh no :sad:

[T*]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/12/15/1418658848726/sydneysiegeends.png

[T*]

still no confirmation of injuries or deaths :sad:

[arista]

still no confirmation of injuries or deaths :sad:



There is
The Gunman is Dead

Live AustraliaNews on FoxNewsHD

[arista]

I said that ages ago, bye





Yes
but I can reply the Truth

[T*]

Confirmed:One hostage and gunman dead, poor hostage :sad:

[Ninastar]

awful

did the 20 year old human shield make it out? i hope it isnt her.

[Livia]

The best kind of terrorist: a dead one.

[Vicky.]

The best kind of terrorist: a dead one.

:thumbs:

[Nedusa]

Why are you all so shocked, surprised, horrified?

Do you all think that I invest precious time in putting long posts on various related threads on here because I'm some type of obsessive, anti-Muslim cretin who has 'nothing better to do'?

This will never stop.
Every country in the world is their target.
Innocent civilians, women and children are their targets.
No life is sacred to them.

We cannot reason with them.
We cannot appease them.
We cannot pacify them.

They do want money and there is no 'ransom' which we can pay because none is being sought by them, except one - the total capitulation by our democratically elected governments, a total submission to Islam by our people, and a total acceptance of a miserable existence of life under Sharia Law -- for those who are not executed first because they are deemed by these extremists as too 'offensive' to Allah and too 'infidel' to live.

This is not a 'Movie' which is 'coming to a cinema near you soon' - it's reality, but it is a reality which is definitely coming to a town or city near you soon nonetheless.

It's here. It's happening. It's real. Better get 'used' to it.

Millions of pounds spent on 'extra security', the killing of a lone Jihadist gumnan, or the capture of a few Islamic Fundamentalist plotters living right among us in our cities and suburbs, is all worthy and welcoming, but is merely alleviation of the symptoms, not addressing the evil cause of this terminal disease.

That cause is Islamic Fundamentalism.

But it is no great secret.

Their 'Hate' preachers have been screaming it from dais and rostrums within virtually every city in the UK for decades. We have ignored or tolerated it.

Their jihadists have been practising it on our city streets increasingly over the past few years - the accosting and intimidation of 'non Muslim' passers by, the slaying of off duty soldiers and innocent civilians. We are shocked by each individual incident -- but separated by space and time (like my helium balloon analogy in another thread) we do not 'join the dots', do not pay heed to the very real underlying meaning of the links, and each individual 'shocking' incident becomes yesterday's news as we return our attention to coping with life's other more mundane demands.

Their long ensconced 'fifth columnist' agents have - covertly, almost imperceptibly - been implementing parts of their 'Grand Plan' for decades in the UK - changes to our Western Democratic liberal way of life on all levels -- to policy in schools, local government, National Government, even our traditions and customs. But viewed independently and separated by space and time (like my helium balloon analogy in another thread) these changes seem so trivial that we do not 'join the dots', do not pay heed to the very real underlying meaning of the links, do not 'see the big picture' which such seemingly insignificant changes are but part of.

This isn't fantasy. It's fact.

And the really sad thing is - that we cannot win.

We cannot win while ever we continue to treat the inhuman, barbaric demons behind these atrocities as human, and while ever we continue to shackle ourselves with misguided oh so 'civilised' and noble policies in dealing with these insane murderers.

To quote Capone (Robert De Niro) in the film 'The Untouchables':

"When you got an all-out prizefight, you wait until the fight is over, one guy is left standing. 'N' that's how you know who won."

And to bastardise the words of Malone (Sean Connery) from the same film:

"Ain't that just like a Westerner - Brings a knife to a gunfight".

I think more and more people will start to take this whole situation more seriously as these types of attacks occur closer and closer to home. If God forbid an incident like this one were to happen on British Mainland and it resulted in the death of innocent members of the public (Non Muslims I would assume) then I think people would for the first time realise that we are ALL potential victims and that the whole Radical Muslim thing cannot be ignored by anyone any longer.

I would expect there would be a horrific backlash which as it would more than likely be targetted directly towards innocent Muslims, would result in the Muslim community also finally waking up to the evil in our midst.

Then and only then would the people of this Country all united against this evil finally have a chance to bring out the poison let it be made public in all it's insidious forms.

It would take an event like this to finally, actually wake people up from their stupor to see what is happening to their culture.




.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Oh he's dead? Did they give him a chance to give himself up first like that cinema dude?

#stopterrorism

[MTVN]

Oh he's dead? Did they give him a chance to give himself up first like that cinema dude?

#stopterrorism

What do you think they had been trying to do for upwards of 16 hours?

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

What do you think they had been trying to do for upwards of 16 hours?

I have no idea I didn't really follow this story.

[MTVN]

3 people now confirmed dead

[arista]

3 people now confirmed dead


2 hostages
34 year old man was one of them

1 gunman

[armand.kay]

How did the two hostages die does anyone know?

[Cal.]

34 year old man and 38 year old woman dead - both innocent people.

[Cherie]

I think more and more people will start to take this whole situation more seriously as these types of attacks occur closer and closer to home. If God forbid an incident like this one were to happen on British Mainland and it resulted in the death of innocent members of the public (Non Muslims I would assume) then I think people would for the first time realise that we are ALL potential victims and that the whole Radical Muslim thing cannot be ignored by anyone any longer.

I would expect there would be a horrific backlash which as it would more than likely be targetted directly towards innocent Muslims, would result in the Muslim community also finally waking up to the evil in our midst.

Then and only then would the people of this Country all united against this evil finally have a chance to bring out the poison let it be made public in all it's insidious forms.

It would take an event like this to finally, actually wake people up from their stupor to see what is happening to their culture.




.

Have people forgotten London 7/7 and Lee Rigby? We are not waiting on terrorist attacks :shrug:

[Creggle]

No terrorist survived? Shame. Would of liked to see him get exported to America and go in to CIA custody. I hope to god people wake up after this attack and realise that we need to get information about other planned attacks, and none of that weak ass waterboarding nonsense neither.

[MTVN]

No terrorist survived? Shame. Would of liked to see him get exported to America and go in to CIA custody. I hope to god people wake up after this attack and realise that we need to get information about other planned attacks, and none of that weak ass waterboarding nonsense neither.

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

[Shaun]

matthew :clap2:

[Amy Jade]

Evil bastard I hope he rots in hell

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/15/356787/default/v2/indy-1-720x960.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/15/356785/default/v2/daily-tel-1-720x960.jpg

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its such a low budget event

This week 5000 Chinese humans will die in road traffic accidents

We have no concept real human tradgedy

[Livia]

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

With respect MTVN, you don't know he was unhinged nor whether he has contact or affiliation with extremist groups. There's a pretty good chance that only the bit about him being unhinged is a fair assumption but contact and affiliation with a larger group is a distinct possibility. While he acted alone, there's more than a good chance that others were involved on the periphery. He was known to the security services, only the equality of the law was keeping him free when really, he should have been banged up long before this happened.

[MTVN]

With respect MTVN, you don't know he was unhinged nor whether he has contact or affiliation with extremist groups. There's a pretty good chance that only the bit about him being unhinged is a fair assumption but contact and affiliation with a larger group is a distinct possibility. While he acted alone, there's more than a good chance that others were involved on the periphery. He was known to the security services, only the equality of the law was keeping him free when really, he should have been banged up long before this happened.

Admittedly to some extent it's speculation. However from what we know about him:

- Self styled sheikh
- Previously a self-proclaimed spiritual healer specialising in black magic and astrology
- Used the above position to commit a string of sexual assaults
- Charged with being an accessory to the murder of his ex wife and then claimed the Iranian secret services had collaborated with the Australian security agency in a conspiracy against him
- Wrote a rambling treatise on Islam and sent it to the King of Jordan, Bashar al-Assad, the Iraqi Prime Minister, the King of Saudi Arabia, Barack Obama, David Cameron and Tony Abbott

On top of that is the fact that no organisation has claimed responsibility when usually they shout it from the rooftops, and the whole incident has not actually gained much traction among the active extremist community.

To quote the BBC profile of him:

he has no known links to jihadist groups, and commentators have suggested he is likely to be working alone.

"Certainly this appears to be the actions of a lone actor, perhaps not very well prepared, perhaps not very well planned," Anne Aly, head of the counter terrorism research programme at Australia's Curtin University, told the BBC.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

It happened so fast. I need to read up on this.

[Creggle]

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

Point 1: See Livia's post
Point 2: Anyone will tell you anything if you push them past their limits, and known terrorists deserve to suffer even if it bears no results. Though I don't think suspects should be tortured, only known affiliates/terrorists.

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/15/article-2873855-24137DCB00000578-72_964x478.jpg
[The 34-year-old manager of the Lindt cafe, Tori Johnson, and mother
of three Katrina Dawson, 38, have been named as the two hostages
killed during the Sydney siege on Tuesday morning.
Four others have been injured, including a woman
with serious gunshot wounds to the leg.
The Muslim gunman identified as self-styled Iranian Sheik Man Haron Monis,
50 (inset), was also shot dead after police burst into the Martin Place cafe at 2.11am]

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/15/241217E900000578-2874295-image-a-8_1418675496470.jpg
No need to kill 2 in the cafe

[lostalex]

Islam as a religion is more evil and worse than the KKK ever was. Of course the Guardian is already trying to say that this has nothing at all to do with Islam or terrorism.

[Ammi]

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

..a good post Matt..tbh I'm quite conflicted about the torture thing which is why I haven't joined in with the 'CIA discussion' yet..and I actually didn't think that I would be conflicted because I'm abhorred by the whole idea of torturing any human being and I know it's cliché but one you 'become them'/extremists then all values are lost...

..anyways I guess that I'll give you my thoughts and why I feel conflicted..this might not be a good analogy but it's how I'm thinking atm...you know how we often have hypothetical dilemmas..?..and sometimes these can be about what someone would do to say one person or relatively few people to potentially help the safety of many..?..often people will think about it and think that they would do something that would be totally alien to their beliefs if that actual dilemma was presented to them...whether they actually would or not, we won't know because most people don't have to face such extreme things...anyways, say if this was personal and specific to a member of someone's family/a loved one..or the whole of their family..?..if (hypothetically..)..a person were to somehow discover that their loved ones were at threat of something quite horrific..a certain death maybe..?..and they could possible do something which was to them quite inhumane but that would prevent the death of their loved ones..would they do it..?...obviously that's very personal but if you then also apply it to people who may have to make that decision collectively for their country..a threat to their country which could mean many losses of life...really, what a crappy situation for them to be in because these 'extreme dilemmas' are something that are real to them..?...hmmmm, I honestly don't know Matt..torture of any kind to any human being goes against everything I believe in but I really can't be 'black and white' about this, which also conflicts me lol...because also some people who make these decisions and who do things are good people but people who know that sometimes in this life, very awful things might be necessary..but there possibly are also a few quite sadistic people as well maybe...

..anyway yeah..I'm going to keep thinking about this because I guess it's just so much less complicated when you know that you'll never have to make the decision yourself...and I'm not even sure that my thoughts are along the right lines and that I'm looking at it the right way...

[Marc]

This is really sad :(

[Ammi]

..actually I realise that I went OT there..with the hostage situation in Australia, I do personally believe that this guy was probably mentally ill but obviously that's not based on any information ..it's just that I don't think that he would have done it if he was mentally healthy..but because he focused on his beliefs with his illness, it's kind of complicated things but I'm not sure how relevant his religion actually is ..it's more that something obviously 'tipped his balance'..but could not that have been anything like with others who do similar things....anyway as I say, it's just an initial opinion because we don't have many facts about him yet....

[arista]

You can not blame the Cops going in
as the Manager went to take his gun
but lost his life.
Its now being told

[kirklancaster]

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

With great respect MTVN, I must state that all Islamic extremists are ‘part of a highly organised and coherent command structure’ even if they act alone or are mentally unhinged (aren’t they all?) or both.

Certain parties are playing up that Monis had ‘mental health problems’ and was ‘acting alone’ for ‘unknown reasons’, and are taking great pains to assure everyone that he was ‘not part of any terror organisation’, because they are frightened of causing alarm and of being accused of ‘Racism’ and ‘Islamaphobia’ if they speak the truth.

So let’s look at the facts:
.
Mental Health
Monis was mentally stable enough to plot his ex-wife’s horrific murder and devise a very elaborate alibi which included faking a heart attack that led to a staged car accident on the day of the murder.

He was also mentally cunning enough to have himself filmed asking someone what time it was, in addition to also ensuring he was filmed with a clock in the background at the approximate time of the murder.

He was also mentally proficient enough to take out an insurance policy covering his Home Contents , specifying certain items, before ‘staging’ a robbery at his flat on the day of the murder and reporting those ‘pre-specified’ items as stolen.

Monis was also mentally capable enough to run his own website, and to write morally disgusting, highly offensive letters to the widows of 7 soldiers who were tragically killed whilst serving in Afghanistan.

He was also mentally devious enough to pose as a ‘Spritual Healer’ to enable him to sexually assault scores of women, and for which he was criminally charged with 40 offences.

Fundamentalism
Monis converted from the Shia branch of Islam to the ISIS linked Sunni branch which regards all non-Muslims and Westerners – including Australia, the UK and America - as ‘enemies’ of Allah.

Monis’s former lawyer, Manny Conditsis - while ‘downplaying’ the ‘organised terrorist’ element of his ex-clients murderous hostage taking – actually unwittingly confirmed Monis’s Islamic extremism, when he said: of Monis: “His ideology is just so strong and so powerful that it clouds his vision for common sense and objectiveness."

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott did the same, when he said of Monis:"He had a long history of violent crime, infatuation with extremism and mental instability," and: "As the siege unfolded yesterday, he sought to cloak his actions with the symbolism of the ISIL death cult. Tragically, there are people in our community ready to engage in politically motivated violence”

So as a devout Islamic Fundamentalist, Monis was not only duty bound to follow the Quran, but would have been extremely intent on following it literally:

Quran 9:5:
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As he would have been to follow the orders of his ISIS leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who just a month before Monis's murderous hostage taking, called for all jihadists to carry out “lone wolf” attacks against Muslim Shi’ites and Westerners around the world. .

Baghdadi singled out Europe, Australia, Canada and America, as targets, and told his Islamic followers to: “Dismember their limbs, snatch them as groups and individuals – erupt volcanoes of jihad everywhere”

A mentally troubled loner with no links or affiliation to organised Islamic Fundamentalist terror groups?

I don’t think so.

As a footnote, and in support of certain other statements in this ‘conspiracy theorists’ oft ignored or maligned posts, I would point out Monis was born in Iran and came to Australia as a refugee in 1996.

So Australia would not now be mourning 3 of her own innocent citizens dead, have other innocent citizens wounded and psychologically damaged, 7 innocent war widows so immorally offended, and other innocent women traumatised by being sexually molested, had they not embraced a poor Muslim ‘refugee’ and welcomed him in to her country with open arms.

I wonder how many more deeply ensconced ‘grateful’ and ‘loyal’ immigrants there are there who are just biding their time before heeding the call of Quran and Baghdadi?

[MTVN]

^ I don't think any of that disproves that he was acting alone. No doubt he buys into the belief system of IS. No doubt he has an infatuation with them and is desperate to portray himself as one of their soldier. And yes it is also true that IS leaders are inciting and encouraging these attacks, but from everything we can gather so far he has no actual tangible, real world contact with IS or any other organisation. And I don't think we should see him as part of a highly organised command structure any more than we do Tim McVeigh or David Copeland. I do accept though that the problem of extremism is obviously a lot bigger than one man/

..a good post Matt..tbh I'm quite conflicted about the torture thing which is why I haven't joined in with the 'CIA discussion' yet..and I actually didn't think that I would be conflicted because I'm abhorred by the whole idea of torturing any human being and I know it's cliché but one you 'become them'/extremists then all values are lost...

..anyways I guess that I'll give you my thoughts and why I feel conflicted..this might not be a good analogy but it's how I'm thinking atm...you know how we often have hypothetical dilemmas..?..and sometimes these can be about what someone would do to say one person or relatively few people to potentially help the safety of many..?..often people will think about it and think that they would do something that would be totally alien to their beliefs if that actual dilemma was presented to them...whether they actually would or not, we won't know because most people don't have to face such extreme things...anyways, say if this was personal and specific to a member of someone's family/a loved one..or the whole of their family..?..if (hypothetically..)..a person were to somehow discover that their loved ones were at threat of something quite horrific..a certain death maybe..?..and they could possible do something which was to them quite inhumane but that would prevent the death of their loved ones..would they do it..?...obviously that's very personal but if you then also apply it to people who may have to make that decision collectively for their country..a threat to their country which could mean many losses of life...really, what a crappy situation for them to be in because these 'extreme dilemmas' are something that are real to them..?...hmmmm, I honestly don't know Matt..torture of any kind to any human being goes against everything I believe in but I really can't be 'black and white' about this, which also conflicts me lol...because also some people who make these decisions and who do things are good people but people who know that sometimes in this life, very awful things might be necessary..but there possibly are also a few quite sadistic people as well maybe...

..anyway yeah..I'm going to keep thinking about this because I guess it's just so much less complicated when you know that you'll never have to make the decision yourself...and I'm not even sure that my thoughts are along the right lines and that I'm looking at it the right way...

I do understand your point but I don't think that sympathising with their motives is incompatible with a condemnation of torture. I've referenced John McCain a few times on this, because he's such an authority on this subject and has such remarkable integrity in being so firm a critic of torture while also staunchly believing in taking strong military action against extremists across the world, and this is part of what he had to say:

"I know, too, that bad things happen in war. I know in war good people can feel obliged for good reasons to do things they would normally object to and recoil from. I understand the reasons that governed the decision to resort to these interrogation methods, and I know that those who approved them and those who used them were dedicated to securing justice for the victims of terrorist attacks and to protecting Americans from further harm. I know their responsibilities were grave and urgent, and the strain of their duty was onerous.

But I dispute wholeheartedly that it was right for them to use these methods, which this report makes clear were neither in the best interests of justice nor our security nor the ideals we have sacrificed so much blood and treasure to defend,"

Plus for me you could also remove any ethical concerns about torture, any hang ups that it would make us compromise the principals we went to war in the first place on, and torture still wouldn't be justified. Even from a brutally practical and utilitarian view it does not work imo. Patrick Cockburn wrote a good article showing just how misplaced the faith in torture was, and always has been. The same justifications used now are the same that have been used for hundreds of years: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/torture-it-didnt-work-then-it-doesnt-work-now-9923288.html

This part of the article in particular is illuminating:

The Senate report has a revealing passage saying that the statement of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed ("KSM") "during his first day in CIA custody included an accurate description of a Pakistani/British operative, which was dismissed as having been provided during the initial 'throwaway stage' of information collection when the CIA believed detainees provided false or worthless information". KSM was later water-boarded (simulated drowning) 183 times, leading him to make frequent confessions that later turned out to be false. Another section of the report says that "KSM fabrications led the CIA to capture and detain suspected terrorists who were later found to be innocent".

[Vanessa]

Very upsetting news, especially this time of the year.

[arista]

Very upsetting news, especially this time of the year.


Yes he had been in Australia
since 1996
a Nasty Confused man
a one off.

[kirklancaster]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-30491113

Terrorists kill over 126 mainly schoolchildren in Peshwar attack.
Key Points

Officials say at least 126 people, mostly children, have been killed in a Taliban attack on an army-run school in north-west Pakistan

Pakistan's security forces are struggling to regain control of a school amid reports children are being held hostage inside

Some pupils, who escaped, said the gunmen went from classroom to classroom, shooting children indiscriminately

The Taliban say the assault is in response to army operations in North Waziristan and the Khyber area. All times GMT.

HOW CAN ANY OF YOU STILL MAINTAIN THAT THESE BASTARDS ARE HUMAN AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH??????????????????????????

[Toy Soldier]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-30491113

Terrorists kill over 126 mainly schoolchildren in Peshwar attack.
Key Points

Officials say at least 126 people, mostly children, have been killed in a Taliban attack on an army-run school in north-west Pakistan

Pakistan's security forces are struggling to regain control of a school amid reports children are being held hostage inside

Some pupils, who escaped, said the gunmen went from classroom to classroom, shooting children indiscriminately

The Taliban say the assault is in response to army operations in North Waziristan and the Khyber area. All times GMT.

HOW CAN ANY OF YOU STILL MAINTAIN THAT THESE BASTARDS ARE HUMAN AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH??????????????????????????
Surely this shouldn't matter to you Kirk? Pakistan is a Muslim country and therefore it's citizens are ticking time bombs of savagery just waiting to blow. Better that these children are killed now, surely, than they be given the chance to become monsters? It is after all, inevitable. You told me so when I asked about the case of adoption, only a day or two ago. It's in their genes, isn't it?

Of course that could have been xenophobic nonsense I suppose. Just a thought.

To answer your question: all it takes to consider these people human is to accept the truth that humans are ****ing horrible creatures. Of course they are human. Being horrendous humans doesn't somehow alter their species. Is a vicious dog who mauls a baby suddenly "not a dog"?

I have no real objection to how they're treated after carrying out these attacks or if they're caught red handed in the process of putting such a plan into action. Do What you want with them. My only problem with what you've had to say is the suggestion that all people of certain genetic backgrounds are "terrorists waiting to happen" and are somehow literally "different" to us "normal humans". And I suspect this is part of what you mean when you wonder "how can we consider them to be human".

[kirklancaster]

Quote =Toy Soldier;7421828]

"Surely this shouldn't matter to you Kirk? Pakistan is a Muslim country and therefore it's citizens are ticking time bombs of savagery just waiting to blow. Better that these children are killed now, surely, than they be given the chance to become monsters? It is after all, inevitable. You told me so when I asked about the case of adoption, only a day or two ago. It's in their genes, isn't it? "

Oh Boy, my boy. Am I so poorly versed in the English Language that you do not understand, or misinterpret what I say in my posts T.S.?

I have stated on here numerous times on various threads – should you wish to check back through all the relevant posts of mine– that I am not referring to ordinary Muslims of any Nationality, when I am referring to terrorist scum.

I have gone to great lengths to make this clear, as the four examples from just some of my posts clearly prove:.

This thread:

"With great respect MTVN, I must state that all Islamic extremists are ‘part of a highly organised and coherent command structure’ even if they act alone or are mentally unhinged (aren’t they all?) or both."

Isis in Iraq :UK to Air Bomb Iraq : Gulf War 3 :Turkey traded British

“I am a British born Christian and proud to be both, but before anyone on here lambasts me, let me stress that I am referring specifically to Muslim Fundamentalists, and not ordinary Muslims - who have as much in common with these maniacs as ordinary Irish Roman Catholics had with the I.R.A. Even ordinary Muslims are being terrorised and slaughtered by these terrorists.”

“The billions in God's 'armies' are harmless, decent, civilised human beings who can be found knelt worshipping in Churches, Chapels, Mosques and Synagogues, not killing, maiming and beheading innocent people.”

“No 'faithfull Muslims' are going to be encouraged to 'go off and fight alongside their Muslim Brothers' because they would already be enlisted if that was the case, and the demons waging this 'war' are not 'Muslim brothers', they are evil terrorists pure and simple. They are actually slaying their 'Muslim brothers' and have as much in common with genuine Muslims, as the cowardly bastard who beheaded Alan Henning”

So I am not referring to the ordinary Muslim in any of my posts, nor to any specific Middle Easter country or people.

I am referring specifically to a certain type of evil non-human who walk among us and have done for thousands of years, and if this sounds preposterous and like something akin to 'Invasion of The Body Snatchers', then so be it - it is no less true because of that, and these non-humans are no less 'alien' in the context of normal humanity as any 'non-terrestrials' because of it too.

The very real problem here is in modern man's obstinate refusal to recognise that a very real force genuinely does exist, which - for want of a better descriptor - is called evil.

This has nothing at all to do with 'religion' and does not automatically obligate a belief in God if someone does acknowledge the existence of a dark, malignant force called evil.

History is littered with individuals who carry out the most despicable acts against human beings, such as child torturers and killers Hindley and Brady, and sadistic murderer Peter Sutcliffe, and they are by all know definitions -- evil.

Then there are evil 'Individuals' who lead 'groups' of other evil people, such as Hitler and Stalin, and though these evil demons assume the power to represent their respective ‘Nations’ this does not mean that those nations actually identify with the demonic ideologies of these evil figureheads or support their twisted aims because they don't. It is just an example of how in human society passive peaceful majorities are always dominated and controlled by active, violent evil minorities.

But let's note something, which - in the context of this thread - is highly pertinent; that such evil individuals and their equally as evil little groups, only manifest themselves once or even twice, over the relevant nation's multiple thousands of years of history.

There has ever only been one Hitler and his Nazi party. Only one Stalin. One Mao Tse Tung, but the history of the Middle East, is a whole different 'bag of mashings'.

Here we have an almost unbroken succession of evil inhuman acts perpetrated throughout the 1,400 years of Islamic history dating back to Muhammed himself, and throughout this same period there has been an almost unbroken succession of the most prolific clustering of literally thousands of evil Islamics who were responsible for instigating and executing those evil acts.

In this, the Middle East is unique and no other region on Earth throughout its history can boast of this same combination.

But I will stress again - because I am tired of being misunderstood or misquoted - that for me, it is not the passive, Muslim majority who I am referring to when I advocate zero tolerance and eradication, but the inhuman, minority Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists.

"Of course that could have been xenophobic nonsense I suppose. Just a thought. "

No 'xenophobic nonsense' from me T.S., because I say what I mean and mean what I say. And here, I mean exactly what I say.

"My only problem with what you've had to say is the suggestion that all people of certain genetic backgrounds are "terrorists waiting to happen" and are somehow literally "different" to us "normal humans". And I suspect this is part of what you mean when you wonder "how can we consider them to be human".


I have answered this misquote above. It is Islamic Fundamental terrorists who I stated are "different to us" as "normal humans" because they are not human - they are inhuman.

"To answer your question: all it takes to consider these people human is to accept the truth that humans are ****ing horrible creatures. Of course they are human. Being horrendous humans doesn't somehow alter their species. Is a vicious dog who mauls a baby suddenly "not a dog"?"


Ridiculous analogy. A dog has no intrinsic Moral Code. It is a naturally feral animal not a human being. No HUMAN BEING would ever 'maul' a baby, because - like those who execute children - whoever did could not ever be categorised as HUMAN in my opinion.

Finally, I will stress again - that no HUMAN BEING could ever stroll through school rooms coldly executing poor little innocent children as these bastards just did. They are NOT human and do not deserve to be categorised as human, or treated as human once captured. They are totally evil subhumans.

[JoshBB]

I just think I need to say that we cannot use a tragedy as an excuse to fuel the flame of bigotry towards muslims. A very very tiny minority of muslims are extremists and we need to be careful in what we say.

My heart goes out to the families, and rest in peace victims.

[kirklancaster]

I just think I need to say that we cannot use a tragedy as an excuse to fuel the flame of bigotry towards muslims. A very very tiny minority of muslims are extremists and we need to be careful in what we say.

My heart goes out to the families, and rest in peace victims.

Please tell me that your post is not directed at me? Because I have just posted at length to correct one person who misunderstood what I was saying, and virtually all my post was made to point out that I am not referring to the passive, peaceful majority of ordinary Muslims - just to the minority of inhuman demonic Islamic terrorists.

[Livia]

Please tell me that your post is not directed at me? Because I have just posted at length to correct one person who misunderstood what I was saying, and virtually all my post was made to point out that I am not referring to the passive, peaceful majority of ordinary Muslims - just to the minority of inhuman demonic Islamic terrorists.

Can't see how it could be directed at you, Kirk.

[kirklancaster]

Can't see how it could be directed at you, Kirk.

Thanks for this Livia. I am genuinely beginning to doubt my sanity and my ability to write. :shrug:

[Creggle]

I just think I need to say that we cannot use a tragedy as an excuse to fuel the flame of bigotry towards muslims. A very very tiny minority of muslims are extremists and we need to be careful in what we say.

My heart goes out to the families, and rest in peace victims.

No offence Josh but you'd have to be pretty stupid to take posts like Kirks, his opinions on terrorists as bigotry towards Muslims. Not at all saying that this is what you're implying but just throwing that out there.

[Toy Soldier]

I'm not sure if you yourself are not properly remembering what you've said in other threads, or possibly not realising the implications of what you have said. Here is an illustrative quote:

Murderous inhuman savagery is in these terrorists blood, in their sub-human genes, and in their black hearts and warped minds, and has been for thousands of years.

You are saying that there is a biological, genetic profile for a terrorist and you can only possibly be implying that that genetic profile is passed down through the ancestral lines of people all across the middle east. Unless, you're implying that all Muslim extremists are the offspring of other Muslim extremists? Because, clearly, this is not the case... many young Muslims get caught up in extremism and terrorist cells despite their parents being perfectly tolerant, peaceful people.

So, whether you realise it or not, you are implying that all middle-eastern people have "sub-human" or savage natures simply because of their racial bloodline. If this is NOT what you think or what you mean, then you really need to reconsider how you phrase quotes like the ones above, or perhaps your understanding of genetics and what that would imply about an entire population, not just a direct ancestral line.

[Livia]

I think you're stretching semantics a little far there TS. Kirk's gone to great length to make it clear he's not referring to all Muslims.

[kirklancaster]

I'm not sure if you yourself are not properly remembering what you've said in other threads, or possibly not realising the implications of what you have said. Here is an illustrative quote:

You are saying that there is a biological, genetic profile for a terrorist and you can only possibly be implying that that genetic profile is passed down through the ancestral lines of people all across the middle east. Unless, you're implying that all Muslim extremists are the offspring of other Muslim extremists? Because, clearly, this is not the case... many young Muslims get caught up in extremism and terrorist cells despite their parents being perfectly tolerant, peaceful people.

So, whether you realise it or not, you are implying that all middle-eastern people have "sub-human" or savage natures simply because of their racial bloodline. If this is NOT what you think or what you mean, then you really need to reconsider how you phrase quotes like the ones above, or perhaps your understanding of genetics and what that would imply about an entire population, not just a direct ancestral line.

No, I am not confused about what I am saying, or the meaning of what I am saying. It is you who is confused about what I’m saying – either that, or you are deliberately trying to alter my argument so that you can continue to be seen to be countering it, which I am frankly finding tiresome.

Let us start with what you refer to as your “illustrative quote” of what I said:

“Murderous inhuman savagery is in these terrorists blood, in their sub-human genes, and in their black hearts and warped minds, and has been for thousands of years”

Now by this statement, if I was “implying that all middle-eastern people have "sub-human" or savage natures simply because of their racial bloodline” as you so wrongfully allege, then I would not have qualified such a statement with the word “terrorist”, I would simply have written; “Murderous inhuman savagery is in the blood of all middle eastern people etc.”

I wrote what I meant. I meant exactly what I wrote, and I most clearly identified the subject about whom I was writing, by writing ‘terrorists’ as clearly distinct from “all middle-eastern people”.

On to your next contention:

“You are saying that there is a biological, genetic profile for a terrorist and you can only possibly be implying that that genetic profile is passed down through the ancestral lines of people all across the middle east.”.

In the above statement, you are actually nearly correct, but in making it, you very conveniently ignore my earlier statement to you in this very thread, which is reproduced below:

“So I am not referring to the ordinary Muslim in any of my posts, nor to any specific Middle Easter country or people “

However, that glaring exclusion apart, because psycopathic personality traits are genetically inherited by children from parents, and hence, where one or both parents are terrorists who hail from, or reside in, the middle east, then I am definitely saying as much – yes – and below is just why I am saying it:

Because there is irrefutable evidence from years of different scientific research, that psycopathic personality traits are genetically inherited by children from parents.

Because, there are numerous other cases of scientific research – including one by psychologists at the University of Edinburgh who carried out a study of more than 800 sets of twins – where it was found that genetics were more influential in shaping key traits than a person's home environment and surroundings.

So ‘Nature’ – genetic inheritance – is the dominant factor over ‘Nurture – external environmental interaction – when it comes to determining an offspring’s character.

Or put another way: Inhuman monster terrorist mama or papa = inhuman monster terrorist ‘mini me’s’.

Further; If inhuman monster terrorist family live in the middle east, then that explains why the middle east is unique in that it has 1,400 years of almost unbroken war and evil atrocities, and over the same period has the continually greatest ‘clustering’ of perpetrators of such war and evil atrocities than any other region on Earth.

“Unless, you're implying that all Muslim extremists are the offspring of other Muslim extremists? Because, clearly, this is not the case... many young Muslims get caught up in extremism and terrorist cells despite their parents being perfectly tolerant, peaceful people.”

No – I’m not ”implying that all Muslim extremists are the offspring of other Muslim extremists” and once again you are so conveniently ignoring what I said to you earlier in this thread;

“One study (in Stockholm in 2002, I think) into the children of serial killers who were adopted as infants and raised by ‘normal’ non-sociopath parents, found that all of the children studied definitely possessed inherited psychopathic tendancies, but the report concluded that positive environmental influences early in life can prevent such tendencies from ever manifesting themselves”.

I’ve never said that all children of terrorists become terrorists, I said that all children of terrorists inherit their parents evil, psychopathic character traits, but that only in a precise set of circumstances will those traits cause some of the children to become terrorist.

And to prove as much, I said to you earlier:

“I think of it as the estranged children of psychopaths having ‘time bombs’ in their brains or psyche, and some can live normal lives, whilst others who encounter the precise set of circumstances needed to ‘detonate’ that bomb, will explode”.

Ok – these were in response to your hypothesis about ‘adopted’ children of terrorists, but the sentiment remains the same.

As for:

“many young Muslims get caught up in extremism and terrorist cells despite their parents being perfectly tolerant, peaceful people.”

Yes, they do, but this really not relevant in the context of your objection to the points I made in my two posts.

However, I have always believed that no sane, decent human being can ever be radicalised into carrying out inhuman evil acts, unless the propensity, the desire to do so is already within them – no matter how deeply buried that propensity is.

In addition, I believe strongly that such cases could be attributable to ‘Atavism’, where genes from an ancestor may have lain ‘dormant’ for generations before surfacing in certain children.

Rather like white parents giving birth to a black child.

I have actual experience of this which I related in an early thread, where I was seated at a business seminar with about 30 young Asians – mostly Pakistani and mostly British born – when the TV flashed with 911 news footage of the hijacked jets flying into the twin towers. To a man, the entire room burst into applause and loud cheering punctuated with anti-American and, inexplicably, anti-British jeering. I and an Indian friend were the only ones shocked, and we both remonstrated with the others, and almost got to blows with them.

The biggest shock was the intense anti-western hatred spewed by a British born Pakistani ‘friend’ who I had known for a fair while, and whose father was an Imam in his local Muslim community, and one of the gentlest, most decent and peace-loving men I had ever met.

I will conclude by saying, as clearly as I am capable of, that in my opinion, whenever terrorists are encountered by our forces during armed conflict, or captured by them in any situation, whether such terrorists are terrorists by genetic determination, or terrorist from peace-loving parents who have elected to voluntarily 'join the cause', then our armed forces or security services are justified in any action against them, because such terrorists by their continuous evil inhuman acts, have lost all right to be categorised as 'human' - evil human or otherwise.

If this drama just happens to be played out in a 'Theater of War' which is in the 'Middle East' - for whatever reason - then so be it.

As a footnote T.S. I really did not like your sarcastic comment asking why I should be bothered about the slaughter by these terrorist devils of the poor little innocent schoolkids. I really didn't. I have children of my own, and my grief for these poor kids and their families is matched only by my intense hatred of the demonic subhuman bastards who so coldly and calculatingly murdered these kids. As for setting a human being ablaze - what kind of sick, satanic evil is that?

[Toy Soldier]

I think we really will just have to drop it. I can accept that perhaps you aren't referring to all middle eastern people, but (for reasons I've covered) I don't think that particularly matters. The way you're stating your point could easily be misconstrued as xenophobia, whether it is in fact or not, as I said that's largely irrelevant because it's the effect of such arguments that is the problem; I.e. Alienation, and why that makes conversion easier for the true "monsters" - who as I said have almost certainly never lifted a gun or a bomb in their life much less taken a life with their own hands.

The reason we will have to drop it is that clearly your argument partially extends into some form of mysticism and that's not really on my radar for rational discussion. I do not believe in God, I do not believe in evil, I do not believe in Satan, I do not believe in demons. When I look at unfathomably sadistic and twisted humans I see just that. Humans. In all of our foul, selfish, idiotic, naive and utterly wretched glory. Just people, Kirk. I think you find that difficult to accept to the point that you never will, so I conceed. You can have your demons.

[Ammi]

^ I don't think any of that disproves that he was acting alone. No doubt he buys into the belief system of IS. No doubt he has an infatuation with them and is desperate to portray himself as one of their soldier. And yes it is also true that IS leaders are inciting and encouraging these attacks, but from everything we can gather so far he has no actual tangible, real world contact with IS or any other organisation. And I don't think we should see him as part of a highly organised command structure any more than we do Tim McVeigh or David Copeland. I do accept though that the problem of extremism is obviously a lot bigger than one man/



I do understand your point but I don't think that sympathising with their motives is incompatible with a condemnation of torture. I've referenced John McCain a few times on this, because he's such an authority on this subject and has such remarkable integrity in being so firm a critic of torture while also staunchly believing in taking strong military action against extremists across the world, and this is part of what he had to say:



Plus for me you could also remove any ethical concerns about torture, any hang ups that it would make us compromise the principals we went to war in the first place on, and torture still wouldn't be justified. Even from a brutally practical and utilitarian view it does not work imo. Patrick Cockburn wrote a good article showing just how misplaced the faith in torture was, and always has been. The same justifications used now are the same that have been used for hundreds of years: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/torture-it-didnt-work-then-it-doesnt-work-now-9923288.html

This part of the article in particular is illuminating:

..thanks for the links etc Matt, they're really interesting...I fairly much agree with you on this, I mean that's my instinct and my inclination but I think that really I'm questioning whether I'm being a bit too 'black and white' or whether that's exactly how it should be...whether it's so black and white to say no never ever is torture justified or yes, in some cases it can prove a success to achieve something...because with most things in life/virtually everything...things always have grey elements..it's only the hypothetical stuff that doesn't have that..what I mean is that I know that with some actual experience, some situations will have proved complete ineffectiveness but then others would have been the opposite and may have saved many lives so like everything else..so it's impossible to say it's not effective or it is effective... it would be trying to judge that and taking each situation individually...but I guess that's the key really and why I find it hard to agree with or not be abhorred by it...that really how could you judge something like that/know what the outcome would be....

[kirklancaster]

I think we really will just have to drop it. I can accept that perhaps you aren't referring to all middle eastern people, but (for reasons I've covered) I don't think that particularly matters. The way you're stating your point could easily be misconstrued as xenophobia, whether it is in fact or not, as I said that's largely irrelevant because it's the effect of such arguments that is the problem; I.e. Alienation, and why that makes conversion easier for the true "monsters" - who as I said have almost certainly never lifted a gun or a bomb in their life much less taken a life with their own hands.

The reason we will have to drop it is that clearly your argument partially extends into some form of mysticism and that's not really on my radar for rational discussion. I do not believe in God, I do not believe in evil, I do not believe in Satan, I do not believe in demons. When I look at unfathomably sadistic and twisted humans I see just that. Humans. In all of our foul, selfish, idiotic, naive and utterly wretched glory. Just people, Kirk. I think you find that difficult to accept to the point that you never will, so I conceed. You can have your demons.

Yes - I agree we should drop it as we will never agree, but I must address your comments about 'mysticism' and 'Demons' etc. So here is hopefully my last post on this by way of explanation and a degree of defense:

I use certain phraseology T.S. because there are no other adequate words in the English language to describe 'people' like these terrorists and their actions, but this has nothing to do with God or mysticism.

'Evil', 'Demonic' and 'Satanic' have accepted meaning outside of any Religious or Biblical connotation and I use such words purely because their synonyms are inadequate, less potent as descriptors in the context of terrorists and their acts - 'There are no words' in other words, and this has nothing to do with 'Mysticism’ - Nothing at all.

Every newspaper in the UK uses the same terminology to describe these Islamic terrorists and their atrocious acts. Do we decline to discuss the latest terrorist atrocity in Peshwan because the ‘Times’ uses the words; 'Evil', 'Demonic', or 'Satanic' in its articles on the same?

I know that 'Man' is capable of 'evil' T.S. and that we all have 'Good' and 'Evil' inside all of us. I have pointed this fact out myself in a previous post. I also know that Man's inhumanity to Man has occurred throughout history, and that such inhumanity has not been exclusive to the Middle Eastern races.

From the very start of recorded history there have been individual men, : , groups of men and whole Nations of men who have transcended all accepted boundaries of human decency:

From Pedro Alonso López a Colombian who did the most unspeakable acts to over 300 young girls before butchering them, to Andrei Chikatilo 'The Butcher of Rostov' who sexual assaulted, murdered and horrifically mutilated over 52 women and children, to more familiar names such as Fred and Rose West, Peter Sutcliffe, Hindley and Brady, and Venables and Thompson.

From the Aztec, Maya and Inca child sacrifices, to the Roman torture and Crucifixion of Christians, the Catholic torture and execution of heretics under the Spanish Inquisition, Hitler's 'Final Solution', and Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge genocide in Cambodia - the list is endless.

We learn of these acts, hear some of the details - phrases such as ‘Hung Drawn and Quartered’, Crucified, ‘Disembowelled’ etc. but do we really sit and seriously give deep thought to what such phrases really mean? Do we think about what it takes to be able to saw a living human into quarters? To rip out the ribcage, and disembowel living men?

Do we really contemplate and perceive in its entirety, the real horror of a terrified 12 year old boy sobbing for his mother in the middle of a dark, desolate moor, whilst he knows that he will never see her again because the adult who has led him there is holding a spade and is telling him in sordid detail just exactly what is going to be his fate?

But 'Man' has an intrinsic Moral Code, and an innate faculty for distinguishing 'right from 'wrong', and a 'conscience', and because of these qualities, the above are boundaries of behaviour that no normal human will even contemplate crossing, let alone actually traverse.

You simply call these monsters ‘bad humans’, whilst I just cannot perceive of them as being human at all, so I call them ‘Monsters’, Demons’, Devils’ – for want of other descriptors.

And what does it really matter T.S. what we call them ? Does what we call them lessen the gravity or incredulity of their atrocious acts of pure evil? Does it rationalise it? Make it any more acceptable?

Yes, Man has ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ inside of him, and sometimes there is a constant ‘battle’ between these two opposing forces for control of our actions, and sometimes ‘Evil’ wins, and we may act in spite of our ‘conscience’, but there is a ‘tipping point’ when a man’s actions are so consummately evil that he ceases to be human by all known descriptors other than biological and physiological ones.

You do not need to embrace ‘mysticism’ or ‘spirituality’ or ‘religion’ or ‘faith’ to use words such as ‘Demon’, ‘Evil’ and ‘Satanic’ when trying to describe the wholly inhuman acts of Hitler, Venables and Thompson, Pol Pot , or the bestial subhumans who behead cowed and bound, terrified, innocent people, or who stroll through school classrooms coldly executing hundreds of terrified, helpless and innocent children.

[Toy Soldier]

It doesn't make it more acceptable and the people who have done these things don't deserve any compassion or restraint, and yet, it DOES matter. A distinction has to be made between genuine psychopaths and people who have been deliberately indoctrinated, broken and twisted. Not for them, they are gone, they are now worthless to the world, they can't be "unbroken", they have been turned into "soulless" tools of war, but believe me when I say that it is VITAL that people accept that they were NOT born that way and that other people - people whose faces you will most likely never see, and whose names you will never know - have deliberately taken these people and warped them.

It matters more than almost anything else. Because if you ARE right... if the majority of terrorists are psychopaths who were simply "born wrong"... then all efforts to combat terrorism are utterly futile. Thankfully, I believe (no, I know) that it's not the case. It is not "in their genetic code". A perfectly healthy mind, especially a young one, can be taken, and shattered. And that is how terrorists recruit. And the people at the top of that chain are not religious and do not believe in Allah or any sort of crusade... those are simply their tools. A population with high levels of strict religious adherence and low levels of quality education. Ripe for the picking.

[Kizzy]

It doesn't make it more acceptable and the people who have done these things don't deserve any compassion or restraint, and yet, it DOES matter. A distinction has to be made between genuine psychopaths and people who have been deliberately indoctrinated, broken and twisted. Not for them, they are gone, they are now worthless to the world, they can't be "unbroken", they have been turned into "soulless" tools of war, but believe me when I say that it is VITAL that people accept that they were NOT born that way and that other people - people whose faces you will most likely never see, and whose names you will never know - have deliberately taken these people and warped them.

It matters more than almost anything else. Because if you ARE right... if the majority of terrorists are psychopaths who were simply "born wrong"... then all efforts to combat terrorism are utterly futile. Thankfully, I believe (no, I know) that it's not the case. It is not "in their genetic code". A perfectly healthy mind, especially a young one, can be taken, and shattered. And that is how terrorists recruit. And the people at the top of that chain are not religious and do not believe in Allah or any sort of crusade... those are simply their tools. A population with high levels of strict religious adherence and low levels of quality education. Ripe for the picking.


I believe this also, no race or religion is inherently bad.

[MTVN]

I largely agree although I'm not sure about the bit regarding the people at the top. If we do not see the average terrorist as inherently psychopathic then why should we see the leaders like that? What makes them so apparently calculating and manipulative with no reason for being so? It's too easy to dismiss them as just holding an unbridled lust of power and nothing more imo, I think those at the top are likely to be more zealous for their cause than anybody else

[lime]

I believe this also, no race or religion is inherently bad.

yip I agree with you kizzy.If we watch what happened in Rwanda....a christian country..every race and religion is capable of carrying out bad deeds.