Farage Defends UKIP Candidate's Chinese Slur

[arista]

On LBC today
but there is a now backlash of Chinese that are angry
with the banned word


[Nigel Farage has said he feels sorry for a UKIP candidate who was
forced to step down after being recorded using derogatory terms
about homosexuals and Chinese people.
The politician described Kerry Smith, a parliamentary hopeful in
one of UKIP's strongest constituencies, as a "rough diamond" who
fell victim to London snobbery over colloquial language.]


http://news.sky.com/story/1394788/farage-defends-ukip-candidates-chinese-slur

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/12/19/357767/default/v1/cegrab-20141219-135819-211-1-762x428.jpg

should be good on Ch4HD News at 7PM

[lostalex]

people need to stop picking on Nigel and UKIP, it's just starting to sound pedantic now.

It's defeating their purpose. they are just making him seem like a victim.

They go to such extremes of language, they want to make it seem like he goes out at night murdering black or chinese babies.

[JoshBB]

Didn't he say something like "he's a diamond in the rough, like most in the east end"? how insulting.

[joeysteele]

This is the price of being under the spotlight more in UK politics.
Nigel Farage is going to have to get used to it probably, because I think it is likely he is going to have to address some of the more unsavoury characters in his party,who are either saying only what they themselves think, or are possibly more worrying,revealing the hidden agenda and sinister thinking of the UKIP set up as a whole.

[Shaun]

I do wish the anti-UKIP stories we see an abundance of were to do with their policies rather than what some nobody councillor might've said in what he thought was private. All these "omg they're racist!" stories do - even if they are accurate - is alienate people from the left.

[Livia]

I do wish the anti-UKIP stories we see an abundance of were to do with their policies rather than what some nobody councillor might've said in what he thought was private. All these "omg they're racist!" stories do - even if they are accurate - is alienate people from the left.

Quite so.

[Kizzy]

Anyone remember when Gordon Brown called that old bigot a bigot?... He was pilloried, everyone in politics has to watch what they say, I think that's the moral here.

[kirklancaster]

Oh what a storm in a tea cup.

"I was fecking starving last night lads. I was like one of them tanks in Tiananmen Square - I could have murdered a fecking chinky"

Roy 'Chubby' Brown' to a packed audience - all who collapsed in fits of laughter.

Was this an audience of 3,000 racists? Was it feck. It was a broad cross section of British society - including a few Chinese who also creased up.

'Poofter' - Not since the grand old days of 'Are You Being Served' with its OTT mincing of John Inman have terms like '****' and 'Poofter' been used in any kind of connotation with male 'Gay' people, so what decade is this UKIP cream bun living in?

None of my 'Gay' friends would be upset by being called a 'poofter' - even directly. The truth is, they'd probably laugh in disbelief, then 'round' on the user of such a word and overwhelm him him with the wittiest, caustic and most withering of retorts which would leave him humiliated, speechless, and looking very much like the idiot ignoramus he is.

Yes - this chump is not the caliber of person we want in politics, or the police, or any other 'official' position, but let's not all rush to the typewriter to dash off 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' type letters of protest to the 'Times', because it's all a 'storm in a teacup' and it does appear that - typically - his remarks have been selectively taken out of context, and is being blown up out of all proportion by people of other political persuasions.

People of all political persuasions, all colours, creeds and 'class' do use such words in everyday conversation.

It's not necessarily 'racist' or 'homophobic' - in fact, it's more likely not to be - and Farage is correct when he intimates that most of us say; 'Do you fancy a Chinky?' when referring to a Chinese take-away.

Personally, with all the serious mind-numbing murders, bombings, be-headings and other crap going off in the world, I'm sick of trivial B.S. being blown up out of all proportion by P.C. twats.

[Nedusa]

Oh what a storm in a tea cup.

"I was fecking starving last night lads. I was like one of them tanks in Tiananmen Square - I could have murdered a fecking chinky"

Roy 'Chubby' Brown' to a packed audience - all who collapsed in fits of laughter.

Was this an audience of 3,000 racists? Was it feck. It was a broad cross section of British society - including a few Chinese who also creased up.

'Poofter' - Not since the grand old days of 'Are You Being Served' with its OTT mincing of John Inman have terms like '****' and 'Poofter' been used in any kind of connotation with male 'Gay' people, so what decade is this UKIP cream bun living in?

None of my 'Gay' friends would be upset by being called a 'poofter' - even directly. The truth is, they'd probably laugh in disbelief, then 'round' on the user of such a word and overwhelm him him with the wittiest, caustic and most withering of retorts which would leave him humiliated, speechless, and looking very much like the idiot ignoramus he is.

Yes - this chump is not the caliber of person we want in politics, or the police, or any other 'official' position, but let's not all rush to the typewriter to dash off 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' type letters of protest to the 'Times', because it's all a 'storm in a teacup' and it does appear that - typically - his remarks have been selectively taken out of context, and is being blown up out of all proportion by people of other political persuasions.

People of all political persuasions, all colours, creeds and 'class' do use such words in everyday conversation.

It's not necessarily 'racist' or 'homophobic' - in fact, it's more likely not to be - and Farage is correct when he intimates that most of us say; 'Do you fancy a Chinky?' when referring to a Chinese take-away.

Personally, with all the serious mind-numbing murders, bombings, be-headings and other crap going off in the world, I'm sick of trivial B.S. being blown up out of all proportion by P.C. twats.

Good post Kirk.... My sentiments exactly

[Northern Monkey]

Oh what a storm in a tea cup.

"I was fecking starving last night lads. I was like one of them tanks in Tiananmen Square - I could have murdered a fecking chinky"

Roy 'Chubby' Brown' to a packed audience - all who collapsed in fits of laughter.

Was this an audience of 3,000 racists? Was it feck. It was a broad cross section of British society - including a few Chinese who also creased up.

'Poofter' - Not since the grand old days of 'Are You Being Served' with its OTT mincing of John Inman have terms like '****' and 'Poofter' been used in any kind of connotation with male 'Gay' people, so what decade is this UKIP cream bun living in?

None of my 'Gay' friends would be upset by being called a 'poofter' - even directly. The truth is, they'd probably laugh in disbelief, then 'round' on the user of such a word and overwhelm him him with the wittiest, caustic and most withering of retorts which would leave him humiliated, speechless, and looking very much like the idiot ignoramus he is.

Yes - this chump is not the caliber of person we want in politics, or the police, or any other 'official' position, but let's not all rush to the typewriter to dash off 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' type letters of protest to the 'Times', because it's all a 'storm in a teacup' and it does appear that - typically - his remarks have been selectively taken out of context, and is being blown up out of all proportion by people of other political persuasions.

People of all political persuasions, all colours, creeds and 'class' do use such words in everyday conversation.

It's not necessarily 'racist' or 'homophobic' - in fact, it's more likely not to be - and Farage is correct when he intimates that most of us say; 'Do you fancy a Chinky?' when referring to a Chinese take-away.

Personally, with all the serious mind-numbing murders, bombings, be-headings and other crap going off in the world, I'm sick of trivial B.S. being blown up out of all proportion by P.C. twats.:thumbs:
The majority of people where i live say things like 'I'm off for chinky tonight' or 'Just nipping out to't p*ki shop'.That's what people have always said and the majority of people i know are definately not racist and i hear people of all back grounds saying these things regularly.

[Kizzy]

Oh what a storm in a tea cup.

"I was fecking starving last night lads. I was like one of them tanks in Tiananmen Square - I could have murdered a fecking chinky"

Roy 'Chubby' Brown' to a packed audience - all who collapsed in fits of laughter.

Was this an audience of 3,000 racists? Was it feck. It was a broad cross section of British society - including a few Chinese who also creased up.

'Poofter' - Not since the grand old days of 'Are You Being Served' with its OTT mincing of John Inman have terms like '****' and 'Poofter' been used in any kind of connotation with male 'Gay' people, so what decade is this UKIP cream bun living in?

None of my 'Gay' friends would be upset by being called a 'poofter' - even directly. The truth is, they'd probably laugh in disbelief, then 'round' on the user of such a word and overwhelm him him with the wittiest, caustic and most withering of retorts which would leave him humiliated, speechless, and looking very much like the idiot ignoramus he is.

Yes - this chump is not the caliber of person we want in politics, or the police, or any other 'official' position, but let's not all rush to the typewriter to dash off 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' type letters of protest to the 'Times', because it's all a 'storm in a teacup' and it does appear that - typically - his remarks have been selectively taken out of context, and is being blown up out of all proportion by people of other political persuasions.

People of all political persuasions, all colours, creeds and 'class' do use such words in everyday conversation.

It's not necessarily 'racist' or 'homophobic' - in fact, it's more likely not to be - and Farage is correct when he intimates that most of us say; 'Do you fancy a Chinky?' when referring to a Chinese take-away.

Personally, with all the serious mind-numbing murders, bombings, be-headings and other crap going off in the world, I'm sick of trivial B.S. being blown up out of all proportion by P.C. twats.

He actually isn't, and the 'Chubby Brown' brand of humour is dying out.... not a moment too soon.

[Vicky.]

Loads of people I know still say 'I fancy a chinkies'

I dont think they mean it to be racist or anything. Though knowing its a slur should stop most from saying it

[kirklancaster]

He actually isn't, and the 'Chubby Brown' brand of humour is dying out.... not a moment too soon.

Politically driven opinion based on 'Politically Correct' wishful thinking isn't fact. Chubby Brown is as popular now as he's ever been. His DVD's still sell in their millions, his shows still sell out nationwide, and ordinary men and women who aren't sexist, racist, ageist, misogynist, or morally corrupt, are fans of his for no other reason that he is 'funny'.

Woe the day, when a PC minority in a democracy can prevent the majority from having the freedom of choice of what to read, listen to, or watch, as well as whether to go to a church of our choosing, or watch our kids in a school Nativity' play, visit lap-dancing clubs, brothels or whack ourselves on our bare buttocks with a wet kipper in the privacy of our own bedrooms while reciting the soliloquy from Hamlet, should we choose to.

Anyway, here are just a few links disproving your statement:

Controversial comic Roy Chubby Brown ready for sold out ...
www.theboltonnews.co.uk/.../11557369.Controversial_comic_Roy_Chu...
24 Oct 2014 - Roy Chubby Brown has been making audiences laugh for 46 years ... Speaking ahead of tonight's return to Bolton, he said: “I'm quite chuffed, they just told me it's sold out. ...

www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/.../505556-foulmouthed-funnyman-roy-c...
31 Jul 2014 - CONTROVERSIAL comic Roy Chubby Brown has promised to turn the air ... 70 but is still selling out venues up and down the UK, releasing top-selling ...

Roy 'Chubby' Brown - SOLD OUT - Gloucester City Council
venues.gloucester.gov.uk/Freetime/Guildhall/.../roychubbybrown.aspx
1 Aug 2014 - He's still rude, he's still crude and this time he's turning headlines into punch lines as ... so close to the mark, even the most seasoned of fans will be left gob-smacked! ... Roy Chubby Brown returns with his meatiest show yet!

[Kizzy]

I did state the brand of humour, not him personally.. there was a swathe of 'comedians' in the 70s and 80s that relied on mother in law jokes and references to p*kis and chinkies, thank goodness they are now in the minority.
It's not a question of what's PC but what is respectful, yes some still find funny but not as many.
Not sure why you align this view with the nativity and porn issues that are in no way linked.

[kirklancaster]

I did state the brand of humour, not him personally.. there was a swathe of 'comedians' in the 70s and 80s that relied on mother in law jokes and references to p*kis and chinkies, thank goodness they are now in the minority.
It's not a question of what's PC but what is respectful, yes some still find funny but not as many.
Not sure why you align this view with the nativity and porn issues that are in no way linked.

Roy Brown's humour is not everyone's 'cup of tea' but people who do find him funny should be able to buy a ticket to see his show or buy his dvd. In the same way that in a majority western democratic Christian country we should be able to see our children in traditional Nativity plays at C of E or Catholic schools at Christmas - especially seeing as how Christmas is a festival of Christ - but cannot now in a lot of schools, because the active, aggressive PC minority have exploited the passivity and apathy of the majority, and imposed their own 'anti-nativity' wishes upon us by intimidating the school heads and governors into replacing the traditional nativity with 'secular' plays.

In the same way, the PC minority are vociferously campaigning against porn, brothels, certain films etc, and also campaigning to have innocuous words such as; 'Chairman' changed to 'Chairperson', the labeling of 'Boys' and Girls' toys abandoned by retailers, and even phrases such as 'White Christmas' changed to 'Snowy Christmas' and terms such as 'Blackout' banned.

It's all madness, but effective madness nonetheless, because such campaigning is being very successful.

It is also a steady erosion of personal freedom.

I genuinely don't watch porn films, or visit lap-dancing clubs, or pay to see Chubby Brown, but I have no desire to strip away anyone else's personal freedom to do so if he so wishes.

Isn't Sony's capitulation with 'The Interview' just yet another example of the minority forcing their will and denying the majority from having the freedom of choice of whether to see this film or not?

[Kizzy]

Roy Brown's humour is not everyone's 'cup of tea' but people who do find him funny should be able to buy a ticket to see his show or buy his dvd. In the same way that in a majority western democratic Christian country we should be able to see our children in traditional Nativity plays at C of E or Catholic schools at Christmas - especially seeing as how Christmas is a festival of Christ - but cannot now in a lot of schools, because the active, aggressive PC minority have exploited the passivity and apathy of the majority, and imposed their own 'anti-nativity' wishes upon us by intimidating the school heads and governors into replacing the traditional nativity with 'secular' plays.

In the same way, the PC minority are vociferously campaigning against porn, brothels, certain films etc, and also campaigning to have innocuous words such as; 'Chairman' changed to 'Chairperson', the labeling of 'Boys' and Girls' toys abandoned by retailers, and even phrases such as 'White Christmas' changed to 'Snowy Christmas' and terms such as 'Blackout' banned.

It's all madness, but effective madness nonetheless, because such campaigning is being very successful.

It is also a steady erosion of personal freedom.

I genuinely don't watch porn films, or visit lap-dancing clubs, or pay to see Chubby Brown, but I have no desire to strip away anyone else's personal freedom to do so if he so wishes.

Isn't Sony's capitulation with 'The Interview' just yet another example of the minority forcing their will and denying the majority from having the freedom of choice of whether to see this film or not?

No it is not in my opinion.
The issue in discussion is the UKIP members indiscretion no other sociopolitical issues, my opinion on that is that he was wrong and deserved to be expected to stand down.

[GiRTh]

I dont know anyone who says 'Off for a chinky' anymore. I think this kind of language is out of date. As are the people who talk like this

The scrutiny Ukip are under is completely justified. Their policies are virtually non-existent so we can only go by the caliber of people they want to put in office and if this is an example then they must never get any power

[Kizzy]

I dont know anyone who says 'Off for a chinky' anymore. I think this kind of language is out of date. As are the people who talk like this

The scrutiny Ukip are under is completely justified. Their policies are virtually non-existent so we can only go by the caliber of people they want to put in office and if this is an example then they must never get any power

:clap1:

[Cherie]

I dont know anyone who says 'Off for a chinky' anymore. I think this kind of language is out of date. As are the people who talk like this

The scrutiny Ukip are under is completely justified. Their policies are virtually non-existent so we can only go by the caliber of people they want to put in office and if this is an example then they must never get any power

Is it a northern thing :suspect:

[Vicky.]

Is it a northern thing :suspect:

I think it might be...I hear that more often than people calling it a chinese tbh

I used to say it myself when I was younger as thats what everyone else said and I didnt realise it was wrong :/

[Kizzy]

I live in the north and we don't say it now, we did years ago probably :shrug:

[GiRTh]

I live in the north and we don't say it now, we did years ago probably :shrug:This. I know people who used to talk like this but I dont hear that expression anymore.

[the truth]

yet more drivel from the radical liberals who took over this country under new labour and banned free speech with their mental politically correct drivel.

[Northern Monkey]

I also hear 'off for a chink' more often than 'off for a chinese' tbh.I am also in the north.

[kirklancaster]

yet more drivel from the radical liberals who took over this country under new labour and banned free speech with their mental politically correct drivel.

Well said Truth.

[user104658]

Err.. So because everyone says it that suddenly makes it all fine and dandy? Not following the logic to be honest. "Most people" do all sorts of stupid, vulgar ****. No, most people don't do it with racist intent. They don't do it because they're racist. They do it because they're simple minded and ignorant. Since when is being ignorant acceptable?

Meh. All I can say is, as a Scottish person who lived in North England for 3 years, being repeatedly referred to as "Scotch" really did my tits in. I wasn't crying myself to sleep over it or anything, but I'd honestly have happily given anyone who said it a slap in the chops for saying it if I thought I could get away with it... Especially when it came along with a good old cultural stereotype, "haw haw haw you're Scotch where's your bagpipes haw haw I bet you love haggis". How about, go and **** yourself? Is that an appropriate response?

So yeah. I get that it's just words and I don't think it should be a legal matter or anything or like that but... How about just... DON'T use words like ****, chinky or "jock"? Is it really going to be a massive inconvenience to anyone to just ****ing not?

[MTVN]

Don't think it's a northern thing tbh, seems fairly countrywide, the sort of language that was commonplace on a show like Only Fools and Horses but it is inappropriate now, even if the majority who use it don't do so with malicious intent

[Shaun]

Yeah I've heard the word used quite a lot down here (Torbay, can't get much more southern :laugh:)

The word makes me cringe. I'm not sure if that's more out of it being a pointless kind-of nickname like whenever I wince when someone refers to a postman as a postie, or if it's out of people using it derogatorily.

[kirklancaster]

No it is not in my opinion.
The issue in discussion is the UKIP members indiscretion no other sociopolitical issues, my opinion on that is that he was wrong and deserved to be expected to stand down.

Yes that is the issue in discussion, but I merely responded to your response to my post.

And, as I said in my first post that this chump is not the type of person we want in politics, the police or any 'official' body then - once again - you seem to be finding fault in one of my posts where there is none and arguing with yourself.

So, although I agreed he was wrong and deserved to be 'stood down', my main point in my original post is that this is being blown up out of all proportion considering how trivial it is weighed against all the really serious issues in this ****ty world, and how I am fecking sick of PC driven drivel eclipsing those serious issues.

In support of what I contend, consider the following:

Liverpool : PC Neil Doyle Dies After Assault - 3 posts
Cuba and America kiss and make up – 2 posts
Cairns Deaths: Eight children murdered in Australian home – 6 posts

While this ****ty load of crap has attracted 27 posts.

I rest my case.

[T*]

I do wish the anti-UKIP stories we see an abundance of were to do with their policies rather than what some nobody councillor might've said in what he thought was private. All these "omg they're racist!" stories do - even if they are accurate - is alienate people from the left.

:clap1:

[joeysteele]

I am glad he is gone as others have said, these people who even have thoughts that are probably seen as offensive and discriminatory to others have no place in politics.

This man was aspiring to be elected as a MP to Parliament, we need Parliament cleaned up not soiled even more with people like this.

I am just glad he was exposed as to his probable thoughts and possible prejudices before the voters were fooled into electing another undesirable to Parliament
So I say again, good riddance to him and all like him too.
I do still believe it will be the case that a good number of UKIP 'candidates' will probably find themselves in similar situations and that Nigel Farage will likely be spending a lot of time dealing with the 'unsavoury' comments of same.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I dont know anyone who says 'Off for a chinky' anymore. I think this kind of language is out of date. As are the people who talk like this

The scrutiny Ukip are under is completely justified. Their policies are virtually non-existent so we can only go by the caliber of people they want to put in office and if this is an example then they must never get any power

Really

Why?

[smudgie]

Going for a Chinese takeaway is still very much called going to the Chinkies in these parts.
Like all the people I know that use it, I have never thought of it as anything but a shortened nickname.
However having seen a Chinese gentleman in the news sayng how offensive he finds it, I will refrain in future.
I suppose it is ignorance in part, but really don't think most people use it to offend.

[kirklancaster]

Yeah I've heard the word used quite a lot down here (Torbay, can't get much more southern :laugh:)

The word makes me cringe. I'm not sure if that's more out of it being a pointless kind-of nickname like whenever I wince when someone refers to a postman as a postie, or if it's out of people using it derogatorily.

Can I come and stay with you? :hehe:

[Mystic Mock]

I'm from the Midlands and I know people that say that they're “off for a chinky.”

And with UKIP, MP's have said way worse than this in that party before yet it gets brushed under the carpet rather quickly by the right wing media, tbh I wouldn't be surprised if this is not mind wiped in a weeks time as if it never happened.

[GiRTh]

Really

Why?Yes

Cuz of their lack of policies.

[Niall]

I find it hilarious how more and more of these racist/homophobic/generally disgusting ****s keep getting exposed for the human scum that they are. I hope it's shocking the idiotic public into not voting such garbage in next May.

[GiRTh]

I find it hilarious how more and more of these racist/homophobic/generally disgusting ****s keep getting exposed for the human scum that they are. i hope it's shocking the idiotic public into not voting such garbage in next May.:clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

if i was going for a chinky thats what i would say but i hate that food so would never.

As for Poofter, come on its quaint but hardly offensive

What Nigel said was spot on, as per.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I find it hilarious how more and more of these racist/homophobic/generally disgusting ****s keep getting exposed for the human scum that they are. I hope it's shocking the idiotic public into not voting such garbage in next May.

I fond it hilarious that people who vent bile and anger at people who they dislike end up sounding just like them....

"idiotic public"


smh

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes

Cuz of their lack of policies.

Why would they publish all their policies so far from the election?

are you familiar with UK politics?

[GiRTh]

Why would they publish all their policies so far from the election?

are you familiar with UK politics?Some will do. We dont know any.

Quite familiar. Are you?

[Niall]

I fond it hilarious that people who vent bile and anger at people who they dislike end up sounding just like them....

"idiotic public"


smh

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks a racist, homophobic and bigoted party is the correct choice for this nation is a profound moron. I don't care how rude that is, it's the facts. And if every person had plainly exposed to them just how bigoted and disgusting this pathetic excuse for a party is then I'm sure they wouldn't be supporting it.

People only support them because of the huge sway they've had over the media, as the right tends to have. Wipe away that media campaign and reveal them for what they truly are and no decent person would dare touch them. They are absolute poison.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks a racist, homophobic and bigoted party is the correct choice for this nation is a profound moron. I don't care how rude that is, it's the facts. And if every person had plainly exposed to them just how bigoted and disgusting this pathetic excuse for a party is then I'm sure they wouldn't be supporting it.

People only support them because of the incredibly sway they have over the media, as the right tends to have. Wipe away that media campaign and reveal them for what they truly are and no decent person would dare touch them. They are absolute poison.

Yes, you are right and the millions of ukip supporters are wrong

:idc:

[Niall]

Yes, you are right and the millions of ukip supporters are wrong

:idc:

Well yes, the racist and homophobic policies of UKIP are wrong. So, by extension all of those people are too wrong in addition to being stupid for believing they aren't wrong.

Anything else you'd like me to confirm for you today? :hugesmile:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well yes, the racist and homophobic policies of UKIP are wrong. So, by extension all of those people are too wrong in addition to being stupid for believing they aren't wrong.

Anything else you'd like me to confirm for you today? :hugesmile:

yes which racist and homophobic policies?

[Niall]

yes which racist and homophobic policies?

They oppose same sex marriage? And I don't even need to start deconstructing their immigration policies because we all know it's fuelled by the xenophobic concept that immigrants 'degrade' this country.

Next!

[Crimson Dynamo]

They oppose same sex marriage? And I don't even need to start deconstructing their immigration policies because we all know it's fuelled by the xenophobic concept that immigrants 'degrade' this country.

Next!

"In a statement issued a week ago, Ukip said. "There is an ongoing debate within Ukip about how we can protect faith communities from ultimately being compelled to conduct same-sex marriages against their beliefs and their will. We note that some gay rights activists are already talking about taking legal action in Strasbourg to force this issue."

He has also called for a move towards the French marriage system, where the legal act of marriage is separated from religious ceremonies.

Farage said: "We propose an augmentation of the civil partnership, awarding it equal status to marriage and enabling it to be available to all. We would rather the legal and religious endorsements of wedlock are separate."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/gay-marriage-nigel-farage-ukip



we all know it's fuelled by the xenophobic concept that immigrants 'degrade' this country.


No we dont, that is your blinkered perception:nono:

DOnt you see that your own prejudice is just as bad as the perceived prejudice you are railing against? :shrug:

[Niall]

"In a statement issued a week ago, Ukip said. "There is an ongoing debate within Ukip about how we can protect faith communities from ultimately being compelled to conduct same-sex marriages against their beliefs and their will. We note that some gay rights activists are already talking about taking legal action in Strasbourg to force this issue."

He has also called for a move towards the French marriage system, where the legal act of marriage is separated from religious ceremonies.

Farage said: "We propose an augmentation of the civil partnership, awarding it equal status to marriage and enabling it to be available to all. We would rather the legal and religious endorsements of wedlock are separate."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/gay-marriage-nigel-farage-ukip



we all know it's fuelled by the xenophobic concept that immigrants 'degrade' this country.


No we dont, that is your blinkered perception:nono:

DOnt you see that your own prejudice is just as bad as the perceived prejudice you are railing against? :shrug:

But, note how in the entirety of that statement there's absolutely no outright support of same sex marriage. Just the mere suggestion that making marriage areligious might be a goal. Instead they'd rather give us a second rate version as was the case before. I don't care what you say, a lack of obvious support is dubious at the best of times. He instead implies religions are more important than simply affording equal rights to a disadvantaged group. You only need to read between the lines to see the homophobic attitude he's attempting to hide.

And it's not my 'blinkered' perception. If people who supported UKIP looked at the real problems of this country they'd see that its problems lie with precisely the people that manifest UKIP in the first place. Rich, right wing fools like Farage are those that drag this country down. The tories were bad enough before these more extreme idiots came along. If UKIP wasn't racist and bigoted then we wouldn't hear of another UKIP member spouting more prejudiced diatribes every other week, would we?

[Livia]

But, note how in the entirety of that statement there's absolutely no outright support of same sex marriage. Just the mere suggestion that making marriage areligious might be a goal. Instead they'd rather give us a second rate version as was the case before. I don't care what you say, a lack of obvious support is dubious at the best of times. He instead implies religions are more important than simply affording equal rights to a disadvantaged group. You only need to read between the lines to see the homophobic attitude he's attempting to hide.

And it's not my 'blinkered' perception. If people who supported UKIP looked at the real problems of this country they'd see that its problems lie with precisely the people that manifest UKIP in the first place. Rich, right wing fools like Farage are those that drag this country down. The tories were bad enough before these more extreme idiots came along. If UKIP wasn't racist and bigoted then we wouldn't hear of another UKIP member spouting more prejudiced diatribes every other week, would we?

Religions are important though. You can't expect a religion to change their entire belief system to incorporate gay marriage. Everyone should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony, whatever your sexual persuasion. However, you cannot force religions to marry people against their beliefs. I could not marry in a synagogue because my husband wasn't a Jew. I don't believe I should have a demonstration and try to make them change the rules.

Also, not being able to have a serious, grown up discussion about immigration and the overpopulation of our tiny island without being branded a racist has fuelled to the rise in support for UKIP.

[Crimson Dynamo]

But, note how in the entirety of that statement there's absolutely no outright support of same sex marriage. Just the mere suggestion that making marriage areligious might be a goal. Instead they'd rather give us a second rate version as was the case before. I don't care what you say, a lack of obvious support is dubious at the best of times.

And it's not my 'blinkered' perception. If people who supported UKIP looked at the real problems of this country they'd see that its problems lie with precisely the people that manifest UKIP in the first place. Rich, right wing fools like Farage are those that drag this country down. The tories were bad enough before these more extreme idiots came along.

Farage is not rich, he lives in a semi detached house in kent worth 540k and earns 79k a year

:joker:

[Northern Monkey]

Religions are important though. You can't expect a religion to change their entire belief system to incorporate gay marriage. Everyone should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony, whatever your sexual persuasion. However, you cannot force religions to marry people against their beliefs. I could not marry in a synagogue because my husband wasn't a Jew. I don't believe I should have a demonstration and try to make them change the rules.

Also, not being able to have a serious, grown up discussion about immigration and the overpopulation of our tiny island without being branded a racist has fuelled to the rise in support for UKIP.I agree with this.I have nothing against same sex marriage as long as the churches religious rights are also respected.I.E having 100% pressure free choice of wether they wish to conduct the marriage.If they are fine with it then no problem.But if it is against their beliefs then they should have to right to decline.Also what about Mosques?Would they be forced to conduct gay Muslim marriages.I highly doubt it,Would'nt wanna upset the Muslim community would we.In which case that leads to inequality between different religions.

[Northern Monkey]

I think the media has alot to do with painting an unsavoury image of UKIP tbh.This statement has alot of truth in it.

'what people need to wake up to is the serious media slant on this. Recently a Lib Dem councillor in Worcester Park, South West London, pleaded guilty to racially aggravated assault. If this had been a UKIP councillor, or even a far removed ex member of UKIP, it would have been splashed across the pages of all the national newspapers and covered by all the main broadcasters. Yet, because he is a Lib Dem and therefore it does not fit the media agenda, Stephen Fenwick’s unprovoked attack on a man in a bar where he called him a ‘migrant’ and told him to ‘go back to his own country’ resulting in a year-long conditional discharge and fine of £200, has been confined to only the local press. Compare this to the coverage of Henley Town Councillor David Silvester when he wrote to the local paper expressing some rather wide of the mark, yet personally held religious views attributing the Same Sex Marriage Act to the recent flooding. Although his comments were certainly eccentric, and to many unpalatable, they were his opinions, not the party’s and he had long been making them to his local paper throughout his tenure as a town councillor. It was only when he defected to UKIP from the Conservatives, that these regular letters expressing the deep religious beliefs of an actually well-liked and respected elderly man, suddenly made national newspapers as the latest let’s-mock-UKIP-media fodder. It’s hardly balanced is it?'

[Firewire]

Farage is not rich, he lives in a semi detached house in kent worth 540k and earns 79k a year

:joker:

sounds like he's rich to me...

[Crimson Dynamo]

sounds like he's rich to me...

That is hardly rich and certainly not the rich that Liam is going on about.

[kirklancaster]

I think the media has alot to do with painting an unsavoury image of UKIP tbh.This statement has alot of truth in it.

'what people need to wake up to is the serious media slant on this. Recently a Lib Dem councillor in Worcester Park, South West London, pleaded guilty to racially aggravated assault. If this had been a UKIP councillor, or even a far removed ex member of UKIP, it would have been splashed across the pages of all the national newspapers and covered by all the main broadcasters. Yet, because he is a Lib Dem and therefore it does not fit the media agenda, Stephen Fenwick’s unprovoked attack on a man in a bar where he called him a ‘migrant’ and told him to ‘go back to his own country’ resulting in a year-long conditional discharge and fine of £200, has been confined to only the local press. Compare this to the coverage of Henley Town Councillor David Silvester when he wrote to the local paper expressing some rather wide of the mark, yet personally held religious views attributing the Same Sex Marriage Act to the recent flooding. Although his comments were certainly eccentric, and to many unpalatable, they were his opinions, not the party’s and he had long been making them to his local paper throughout his tenure as a town councillor. It was only when he defected to UKIP from the Conservatives, that these regular letters expressing the deep religious beliefs of an actually well-liked and respected elderly man, suddenly made national newspapers as the latest let’s-mock-UKIP-media fodder. It’s hardly balanced is it?'

:clap1::clap1::clap1: A cracking post Paul.

[kirklancaster]

That is hardly rich and certainly not the rich that Liam is going on about.

Perfectly true - a lot of our Labour Councillors are earning more than that when their B.S. scamming 'expenses' are totted up.

[kirklancaster]

Religions are important though. You can't expect a religion to change their entire belief system to incorporate gay marriage. Everyone should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony, whatever your sexual persuasion. However, you cannot force religions to marry people against their beliefs. I could not marry in a synagogue because my husband wasn't a Jew. I don't believe I should have a demonstration and try to make them change the rules.

Also, not being able to have a serious, grown up discussion about immigration and the overpopulation of our tiny island without being branded a racist has fuelled to the rise in support for UKIP.

:worship:

I dare not post on this subject the truth of what I know because it will make me more unpopular on here than I already am.

[Mystic Mock]

They oppose same sex marriage? And I don't even need to start deconstructing their immigration policies because we all know it's fuelled by the xenophobic concept that immigrants 'degrade' this country.

Next!

Isn't UKIP the party that in their original manifesto said that they would allow shopkeepers the right to bar people due to prejudicial grounds? If so then that's a ****ed up party for anyone to want to rule the country surely? Especially considering that they'll be more against the working class than even the Tories are considering they're even further right wing.

And as I know that a lot of the UKIP voters secretly want this to be the case they won't actually get rid of the Muslims from Asia and Africa like they're hoping for because they're cheap labour, but we will lose our civilized European neighbours under a UKIP Government.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Isn't UKIP the party that in their original manifesto said that they would allow shopkeepers the right to bar people due to prejudicial grounds? If so then that's a ****ed up party for anyone to want to rule the country surely? Especially considering that they'll be more against the working class than even the Tories are considering they're even further right wing.

And as I know that a lot of the UKIP voters secretly want this to be the case they won't actually get rid of the Muslims from Asia and Africa like they're hoping for because they're cheap labour, but we will lose our civilized European neighbours under a UKIP Government.

i heard they want to use space aliens for cheap labour and bring back slavery too


bloody racists

:crazy:

[Mystic Mock]

i heard they want to use space aliens for cheap labour and bring back slavery too


bloody racists

:crazy:

There's no need to be sarcastic.

If their policy even has any defense for it then you can surely use it.

Or the fact that they want anyone hanged that believes in the EU.

And they want to cut food banks down so the poor suffer even moreso.

[Mystic Mock]

Farage is not rich, he lives in a semi detached house in kent worth 540k and earns 79k a year

:joker:

You do realize that a lot of rich people live in Kent right? Especially ex-Tory Bankers.:joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

There's no need to be sarcastic.

If their policy even has any defense for it then you can surely use it.

Or the fact that they want anyone hanged that believes in the EU.

And they want to cut food banks down so the poor suffer even moreso.

i have no idea what you are on about:shrug:

[Mystic Mock]

i have no idea what you are on about:shrug:

On which part? The sarcastic remark? Or UKIP's so called policies away from let's pull out of Europe?

[Crimson Dynamo]

On which part? The sarcastic remark? Or UKIP's so called policies away from let's pull out of Europe?

Or the fact that they want anyone hanged that believes in the EU.

[the truth]

farage is an absolute legend, the ONLY man with the guts and backbone to speak the truth....he also does it with style and humility and has brilliantly sidestepped the petty mud slinging of politicians and the nasty populist narcissist russell brand. farage has been particulalry epic in completely exposed the corrupt disgusting monsterously wasteful burocratic nightmare that is europe

[Crimson Dynamo]

farage is an absolute legend, the ONLY man with the guts and backbone to speak the truth....he also does it with style and humility and has brilliantly sidestepped the petty mud slinging of politicians and the nasty populist narcissist russell brand. farage has been particulalry epic in completely exposed the corrupt disgusting monsterously wasteful burocratic nightmare that is europe

:clap1:

The Truth has spoken

[Niall]

Religions are important though. You can't expect a religion to change their entire belief system to incorporate gay marriage. Everyone should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony, whatever your sexual persuasion. However, you cannot force religions to marry people against their beliefs. I could not marry in a synagogue because my husband wasn't a Jew. I don't believe I should have a demonstration and try to make them change the rules.

Also, not being able to have a serious, grown up discussion about immigration and the overpopulation of our tiny island without being branded a racist has fuelled to the rise in support for UKIP.

I wasn't saying religions aren't important, of course they're important! My point was more that he was using that as an excuse to not fully support the legalisation of gay marriage wholesale. Instead he used that to give conditions on its legalisation and back himself up when trying to bring up civil partnerships as an alternative. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, he won't support it fully so that indicates some degree of intolerance to me (and judging by the way UKIP members act, such feelings aren't exactly unfounded).

I guess that's true to some degree, but everyone's agreed now that immigration needs sorting. It does, and that's obvious. But I just wish people would open their eyes and see UKIP for the monstrous pile of manure that they are, and how their 'solution' for immigration is one of many things that will utterly destroy this country economically and culturally.

Farage is not rich, he lives in a semi detached house in kent worth 540k and earns 79k a year

:joker:

80k a year? A house worth over half a million in Kent? Not rich? Ok my deluded friend, ok.

[Niall]

i heard they want to use space aliens for cheap labour and bring back slavery too


bloody racists

:crazy:

Not being funny but seeing how into the free market they are it wouldn't surprise me if they supported slavery in the name of improving profits and reducing losses. :idc:

[Livia]

I wasn't saying religions aren't important, of course they're important! My point was more that he was using that as an excuse to not fully support the legalisation of gay marriage wholesale. Instead he used that to give conditions on its legalisation and back himself up when trying to bring up civil partnerships as an alternative. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, he won't support it fully so that indicates some degree of intolerance to me (and judging by the way UKIP members act, such feelings aren't exactly unfounded).

I guess that's true to some degree, but everyone's agreed now that immigration needs sorting. It does, and that's obvious. But I just wish people would open their eyes and see UKIP for the monstrous pile of manure that they are, and how their 'solution' for immigration is one of many things that will utterly destroy this country economically and culturally.


I think what he said was that civil partnerships would be available to everyone, as in heterosexual couples could also opt for a civil partnership which they can't do right now. And he doesn't have to support gay marriage wholeheartedly. Plenty of of MPs voted against it. If that's what people believe then they have a right to think that way, even though it's legal now and I personally don't agree with them.

I am not a supporter of UKIP, and they certainly don't help themselves with some of the loose canons they have shooting off their mouths without engaging their brain... but I do agree with some of the stuff they say, for instance, open borders with Europe has been a disaster. That's not to say some people shouldn't be able to come and work here if they have something to offer. Nigel Farage's wife is German, he's not saying no one should be let into the country, ever.

[kirklancaster]

Anyone who believes the official figures on immigration is living in 'La La land'. Treble them and you might be nearer the mark.

Anyone who believes that the majority of immigrants coming here are just hard-working, honest souls who just want a better life is living in 'La La land'.

Anyone who believes that our Benefits System mainly benefits those in real need are living in 'La La land'.

Anyone who believes that the majority of immigrants are not exploiting loop holes in our Benefits System to the tune of 100's of millions of pounds per year are living in 'La La land.

Anyone who doesn't believe that organised crime; from prostitution to drug trafficking, cloned credit card fraud, shoplifting gangs to Housing Benefit fraud, 'Boiler Room' and 'Long' Companies, to 'Ponzi' schemes, is run by immigrants is living in 'La La land'.

Anyone who doesn't believe that the problem is getting worse and is set to continue to get worse as unfettered immigration escalates, is living in 'La La land.

Someone needs to do something - and quickly - and I personally don't give a rat's arse if it's UKIP or not.

There - said it - now I feel better.

[the truth]

an official increase of population of 8 million in less than 20 years in a small island is mental and thats just the OFFICIAL figures, you can bet your candy ass theres millions more...and we wonder why the nurses cant run the hospital wards and the waiting lists are out of control and the hospitals are 20 times filthier than some countries who dont have totally open borders

[Niall]

I think what he said was that civil partnerships would be available to everyone, as in heterosexual couples could also opt for a civil partnership which they can't do right now. And he doesn't have to support gay marriage wholeheartedly. Plenty of of MPs voted against it. If that's what people believe then they have a right to think that way, even though it's legal now and I personally don't agree with them.

I am not a supporter of UKIP, and they certainly don't help themselves with some of the loose canons they have shooting off their mouths without engaging their brain... but I do agree with some of the stuff they say, for instance, open borders with Europe has been a disaster. That's not to say some people shouldn't be able to come and work here if they have something to offer. Nigel Farage's wife is German, he's not saying no one should be let into the country, ever.

I know that, but it's still a mildly homohobic thing to do (opposing it that is), hence my using that as a reference point for saying they're homophobic.

I suppose so. But his attitude is so ridiculously over the top I just despair at people taking him seriously. He's a moron.

Anyone who believes the official figures on immigration is living in 'La La land'. Treble them and you might be nearer the mark.

Anyone who believes that the majority of immigrants coming here are just hard-working, honest souls who just want a better life is living in 'La La land'.

Anyone who believes that our Benefits System mainly benefits those in real need are living in 'La La land'.

Anyone who believes that the majority of immigrants are not exploiting loop holes in our Benefits System to the tune of 100's of millions of pounds per year are living in 'La La land.

Anyone who doesn't believe that organised crime; from prostitution to drug trafficking, cloned credit card fraud, shoplifting gangs to Housing Benefit fraud, 'Boiler Room' and 'Long' Companies, to 'Ponzi' schemes, is run by immigrants is living in 'La La land'.

Anyone who doesn't believe that the problem is getting worse and is set to continue to get worse as unfettered immigration escalates, is living in 'La La land.

Someone needs to do something - and quickly - and I personally don't give a rat's arse if it's UKIP or not.

There - said it - now I feel better.

Anyone who thinks any of that contains a cent of truth is also clearly living in 'la la land'.

[Mystic Mock]

Saying that most of the problems in this country is caused by foreigners is living in la la land.

Especially when it comes to stuff like the recession which was Farage and his fellow Bankers fault for bankrupting not just this country but the whole world.

And crimes get committed by all sorts of people, to say that it's mostly foreigners is crazy imo.

And to Scrooge The Daily Telegraph reported about wanting people hanged for wanting to be in the EU, and we all know how right wing they are so they're not as agenda driven against UKIP like someone said about the Media earlier.

[user104658]

Anyone who believes the official figures on immigration is living in 'La La land'. Treble them and you might be nearer the mark.

Statistics are never going to be 100% accurate but... treble? Really? ... this is just nonsensical. Do you need to borrow a hyperspoon to help you dish this **** out of your hyperbole?

Anyone who believes that the majority of immigrants coming here are just hard-working, honest souls who just want a better life is living in 'La La land'.

Anyone who believes that the majority of immigrants are not exploiting loop holes in our Benefits System to the tune of 100's of millions of pounds per year are living in 'La La land.

In both cases, "the majority"? Come on! No one is trying to claim that there aren't people out to abuse the system - both immigrants and people born and raised right here at home. Of course there are. There will always be people looking to exploit things to their advantage. But the MAJORITY of immigrants are dastardly, scheming layabouts who have some sort of supernatural ability to exploit loopholes and get away with it, that aren't being exploited by people here already? More nonsense.


Anyone who believes that our Benefits System mainly benefits those in real need are living in 'La La land'.

The vast (VAST) majority of the benefits budget is spent on wage top-ups (tax credits, child benefits, etc.) for normal British families. Working families. Because full-time work on anything less than around £11 an hour is not enough to run a household at all let alone to any sort of decent standard. Even the "living wage" (£7.85) is an absolute joke, unless you believe that it's possible to run a household / support a family on < £15000 a year (hint: it isn't). So yes. Our benefits system mainly benefits those who need it: normal, working UK families with children. That is just how broken the UK wage structure vs. the cost of living is.


Anyone who doesn't believe that organised crime; from prostitution to drug trafficking, cloned credit card fraud, shoplifting gangs to Housing Benefit fraud, 'Boiler Room' and 'Long' Companies, to 'Ponzi' schemes, is run by immigrants is living in 'La La land'.


Again, all of them? If we stop immigration, all of these problems will suddenly be solved, I suppose? We'll be living in a utopia where everyone stops in the street to tip their cap and give a fine how-do-you-do? Yes, there are immigrants involved in organised crime. And white british people, too. Not to mention plenty of home-grown would be gangsters eager to step right up if indeed all of the immigrants were to be removed. The problem, then, is that we're not tackling organised crime very well, surely, rather than it being an immigration issue?


Anyone who doesn't believe that the problem is getting worse and is set to continue to get worse as unfettered immigration escalates, is living in 'La La land.

Someone needs to do something - and quickly - and I personally don't give a rat's arse if it's UKIP or not.

The terms "baby" and "bathwater" come to mind. You want better controlled immigration so let's elect people who are promising that, no matter what other prejudiced and small-minded policies they might have? Who CARES if they round up all of the gays and send them back to their homeland (la la land, is it?) so long as we also get rid of the dirty sand****ers running prostitution rings out of their ill-gotten council houses too, right? Yarrrrr and whar's me pitchfork?

[GiRTh]

Statistics are never going to be 100% accurate but... treble? Really? ... this is just nonsensical. Do you need to borrow a hyperspoon to help you dish this **** out of your hyperbole?



In both cases, "the majority"? Come on! No one is trying to claim that there aren't people out to abuse the system - both immigrants and people born and raised right here at home. Of course there are. There will always be people looking to exploit things to their advantage. But the MAJORITY of immigrants are dastardly, scheming layabouts who have some sort of supernatural ability to exploit loopholes and get away with it, that aren't being exploited by people here already? More nonsense.



The vast (VAST) majority of the benefits budget is spent on wage top-ups (tax credits, child benefits, etc.) for normal British families. Working families. Because full-time work on anything less than around £11 an hour is not enough to run a household at all let alone to any sort of decent standard. Even the "living wage" (£7.85) is an absolute joke, unless you believe that it's possible to run a household / support a family on < £15000 a year (hint: it isn't). So yes. Our benefits system mainly benefits those who need it: normal, working UK families with children. That is just how broken the UK wage structure vs. the cost of living is.




Again, all of them? If we stop immigration, all of these problems will suddenly be solved, I suppose? We'll be living in a utopia where everyone stops in the street to tip their cap and give a fine how-do-you-do? Yes, there are immigrants involved in organised crime. And white british people, too. Not to mention plenty of home-grown would be gangsters eager to step right up if indeed all of the immigrants were to be removed. The problem, then, is that we're not tackling organised crime very well, surely, rather than it being an immigration issue?




The terms "baby" and "bathwater" come to mind. You want better controlled immigration so let's elect people who are promising that, no matter what other prejudiced and small-minded policies they might have? Who CARES if they round up all of the gays and send them back to their homeland (la la land, is it?) so long as we also get rid of the dirty sand****ers running prostitution rings out of their ill-gotten council houses too, right? Yarrrrr and whar's me pitchfork?
:clap1:

[the truth]

I know that, but it's still a mildly homohobic thing to do (opposing it that is), hence my using that as a reference point for saying they're homophobic.

I suppose so. But his attitude is so ridiculously over the top I just despair at people taking him seriously. He's a moron.



Anyone who thinks any of that contains a cent of truth is also clearly living in 'la la land'.

nonsense its people over using the homophobic and racist card thats caused this massive problem in the first place

[the truth]

Saying that most of the problems in this country is caused by foreigners is living in la la land.

Especially when it comes to stuff like the recession which was Farage and his fellow Bankers fault for bankrupting not just this country but the whole world.

And crimes get committed by all sorts of people, to say that it's mostly foreigners is crazy imo.

And to Scrooge The Daily Telegraph reported about wanting people hanged for wanting to be in the EU, and we all know how right wing they are so they're not as agenda driven against UKIP like someone said about the Media earlier.
nobody said that, that kind of false exaggeration and misrepresentation of what people are saying is immoral untrue and deliberately divisive

[the truth]

the european parliament is the main problem, their unreadable 587 page constitution of endless laws is the next problem, masisve population growth is another problem partly caused by open borders, illegal immigration is another part of this farce with an estimated few million illegals in the UK too.......the system cant handle all this
in addition to the appalling european farce, we had the worst uk government ever under new labour, who passed so many stupid hardline radical liberal laws , conversation itself is virtually outlawed now in this so called land of free speech. the mental bills and welfare and general PC culture with new labour led to the break up of families and masisve welfare state dependancy and teen prgnancies hit new highs. we now have a generation with millions of young people with no work ethic instille dinto them. this has meant they wont do physically demanding jobs, or any tough jobs in many cases. theyre ambition , self rspect and work ethic destroyed by the bentness and disingenuous nature of new labours disgusting lust for power. complete and utter champagne socialist charalatans who preached about petty drivel like what words can be used to describe immigrants and called anyone with questions bigots...yet on the other side of the world they bomed the hell out these same immigrants nations.....little words were more important to new labour that big bombs and illegal wars killing millions. new labour were pure evil

[Mystic Mock]

nonsense its people over using the homophobic and racist card thats caused this massive problem in the first place

I do agree that people do overplay the race and homophobic cards quite easily, but in UKIP's case there is truth to it, have you seen the people surrounding Farage? In fact that should tell you what Farage must be like behind close doors because he must have a lot of things in common with them.

And I will try and find the article tomorrow, but one of their twatty MP's did say something along those lines of wanting people hanged for believing in the EU.

[Mystic Mock]

New Labour was awful to the Middle East that I can agree on.

But as selfish as this sounds I care about myself and this country first and foremost and these right wing parties are out to destroy the working class and disabled people, at least we had treats and benefited under New Labour which is more important than how they treat a few countries right? I know that sounds cruel but it's survival of the fittest at the end of the day.

[Kizzy]

They just can't stop can they?... Were you a bigoted conservative who has a backward middle English outlook? then UKIP want you! :/

'The UK Independence Party says it has expelled one of its councillors "for bringing the party into disrepute".

Rozanne Duncan is understood to have used highly racially offensive language during filming for a BBC documentary to be broadcast in February.

The party did not give the reasons for Ms Duncan's expulsion but said she had 28 days to appeal.

She sits on Thanet District Council in Kent, where she was UKIP group deputy leader.

Ms Duncan won the council seat, in the Cliftonville East ward, in a by-election in May 2013.

She had previously stood as a Conservative candidate.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30576857

[Crimson Dynamo]

They just can't stop can they?... Were you a bigoted conservative who has a backward middle English outlook? then UKIP want you! :/

'The UK Independence Party says it has expelled one of its councillors "for bringing the party into disrepute".

Rozanne Duncan is understood to have used highly racially offensive language during filming for a BBC documentary to be broadcast in February.

The party did not give the reasons for Ms Duncan's expulsion but said she had 28 days to appeal.

She sits on Thanet District Council in Kent, where she was UKIP group deputy leader.

Ms Duncan won the council seat, in the Cliftonville East ward, in a by-election in May 2013.

She had previously stood as a Conservative candidate.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30576857

I think it shows a party who acts quick to combat prejudice. I wish the other parties acted in this responsible manner. Well dome UKIP, again. :clap2:

[joeysteele]

New Labour was awful to the Middle East that I can agree on.

But as selfish as this sounds I care about myself and this country first and foremost and these right wing parties are out to destroy the working class and disabled people, at least we had treats and benefited under New Labour which is more important than how they treat a few countries right? I know that sounds cruel but it's survival of the fittest at the end of the day.

This is a really interesting post Mock.

I agree with the basis on the thinking of near all of it.
I agree labour made very big mistakes as to the Middle East, but there were other mistakes in that area too, which were also created by the former President Bush and our Conservative govt. led by Margaret Thatcher and then John Major at that time too.
had they gone about things better and more productively, they could have ensured a possible unlikelihood as to a return to Iraq.

As to your point as to the destruction of the working class and disabled people, sadly under this present govt, that all has a ring of truth to it.

As you pointed out,although the word treats is not what I would use, Labour did realise more needed to be done for those at the poorer end and those most vulnerable.
Pension credit was a massive boost to those aged 60 and over as a top up to income and pensions, the winter fuel allowance awarded at £200+ to help with fuel bills for those on very low incomes too was very welcome.
The increasing too for the vulnerable of cold weather payments,increased from the miserly £8+ whatever it was under the Conservatives up to £25 for every 7 day freezing or below freezing period.
I can support the thinking that some of those benefits, winter fuel allowance and cold weather payments could now be halted for those with much larger incomes and more to the point substantial savings too.

Contrast those actions with this hateful heartless govt. taking away entitlements from those on housing benefit with the bedroom 'tax'.with no other properties for them to go to, and them then having to pay the loss of the housing benefit out of benefits, which all govts. had previously separately said they had to have to live on.

There was touted about,the term 'social cleansing' as to this govts. policies,not justified in my view at tha start of this govt.as to the severity of the term and what it could really mean, however this govt. has over the years gone on to attack and hit the weakest, poorest, most vulnerable working or unemployed,disabled and sick, even the incurably and terminally ill people too.

Which either demonstrates clearly the real thinking of this truly nasty govt. or a very cowardly govt. that can only take action and crush even more the weakest in society

Good points you raised Mock,and for me the rise of UKIP has only made the Conservative party come across even worse as they seem to try to match UKIP.
Then therein lies another very sinister question and thought,if the Conservatives are by their policies trying to outdo UKIP now, then clearly UKIPs policies for the groups who are in the most need and most vulnerable must be absolutely horrific for those most vulnerable and at the lower end of the earnings scale as to their future.

A thought I hope many will hold onto in the polling booths in May 2015 and take action to ensure this rotten govt, and more to the point the sinister and worrying UKIP party with its probable 'hidden agenda', are all soundly rejected at that election and sent packing.

[Kizzy]

It's not great that the majority of the parties representatives share these views though is it? You could almost get the feeling that the party attracts these views due to their policies (policy) which is mainly xenophobia dressed as 'adult' debate.
They are the most right wing you can get without falling over, and are only just managing to maintain a veil of respectability...just.

[joeysteele]

It's not great that the majority of the parties representatives share these views though is it? You could almost get the feeling that the party attracts these views due to their policies (policy) which is mainly xenophobia dressed as 'adult' debate.
They are the most right wing you can get without falling over, and are only just managing to maintain a veil of respectability...just.

I do think and hope even moreso that the UKIP mask is slipping now and as more scrutiny is applied to them, more of these 'views' become apparant.
Which in turn also exposes what some of those in the Conservative party would like to see done too, hence 2 defections to and former Conservative voters backing UKIP.

The mask too, of blaming everything, no matter what it may be, on being in the EU and on immigration is now going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

[GiRTh]

I do think and hope even moreso that the UKIP mask is slipping now and as more scrutiny is applied to them, more of these 'views' become apparant.
Which in turn also exposes what some of those in the Conservative party would like to see done too, hence 2 defections to and former Conservative voters backing UKIP.

The mask too, of blaming everything, no matter what it may be, on being in the EU and on immigration is now going from the sublime to the ridiculous.:clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I do think and hope even moreso that the UKIP mask is slipping now and as more scrutiny is applied to them, more of these 'views' become apparant.
Which in turn also exposes what some of those in the Conservative party would like to see done too, hence 2 defections to and former Conservative voters backing UKIP.

The mask too, of blaming everything, no matter what it may be, on being in the EU and on immigration is now going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

hardly joey, lets not kid ourself about "scrutiny" etc - editors have told journos that UKIP stories are golddust and "go get them"

they are the flavour of the month and people want to use these stories to pigeon hole UKIP like people are doing in this thread

Lets ignore the fact that Farage speaks more sense than all 3 main leaders do and has been a welcome breath of fresh air to a failing political system - and just be vile about some fringe candidates etc.


It makes me think that people have forgotten about the antics of labour and the tories over the last decade?

unbelievable

Cameron and Millipede should be heaping congratulations on Farage for rescuing the reputation of the "Politician" from the toilet bowl where it was prior to his arrival.

[Niall]

They just can't stop can they?... Were you a bigoted conservative who has a backward middle English outlook? then UKIP want you! :/

'The UK Independence Party says it has expelled one of its councillors "for bringing the party into disrepute".

Rozanne Duncan is understood to have used highly racially offensive language during filming for a BBC documentary to be broadcast in February.

The party did not give the reasons for Ms Duncan's expulsion but said she had 28 days to appeal.

She sits on Thanet District Council in Kent, where she was UKIP group deputy leader.

Ms Duncan won the council seat, in the Cliftonville East ward, in a by-election in May 2013.

She had previously stood as a Conservative candidate.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30576857

And people try to sit here and say the party isn't a racist organisation :worry:

[the truth]

New Labour was awful to the Middle East that I can agree on.

But as selfish as this sounds I care about myself and this country first and foremost and these right wing parties are out to destroy the working class and disabled people, at least we had treats and benefited under New Labour which is more important than how they treat a few countries right? I know that sounds cruel but it's survival of the fittest at the end of the day.

what happened in the middle east does affect us, terrorism has grown out of all kinds of control since our illegal incursions...the fact we preach about PC words yet bomb millions illegally makes us look like the complete and utter charlatans of the world. then again we brits have always been condescending preachy hypocritical monarchy kissing twats
also you say you care about the disabled yet say its survival of the fittest? major contradiction in your values there. new labour were pure evil. theyll sell anything for a cheap vote and to hell with the long term. as for the disabled theyre not worse off now than before, its a lie. theyve simply taken off idiots and the millions of workless chavs off the benefits that new labour spoon fed. new labour actively encouraged lazy twats to milk benefits and now we reap the benefits of a workless generation

[joeysteele]

what happened in the middle east does affect us, terrorism has grown out of all kinds of control since our illegal incursions...the fact we preach about PC words yet bomb millions illegally makes us look like the complete and utter charlatans of the world. then again we brits have always been condescending preachy hypocritical monarchy kissing twats
also you say you care about the disabled yet say its survival of the fittest? major contradiction in your values there. new labour were pure evil. theyll sell anything for a cheap vote and to hell with the long term. as for the disabled theyre not worse off now than before, its a lie. theyve simply taken off idiots and the millions of workless chavs off the benefits that new labour spoon fed. new labour actively encouraged lazy twats to milk benefits and now we reap the benefits of a workless generation

With full respect to you The TRUTH, that may well be the case where you happen to be but from all I have come across in my dealings with the disabled on a legal basis since graduation, it is far from what I see.

The disabled are having to battle in courts to get benefits restored that were wrongly removed from them, there was a case where someone was on income support, were told they would have to now claim ESA, they did, they were told in their view, on a paper decision, they were fit for work and would need to claim Jobseekers, they tried but were told they were too ill to claim Jobseekers yet were told they were too fit to claim ESA.
It got settled after months of having hardly any income.

Charities, the CAB and welfare groups will happily tell you that the disabled and sick are far worse off now than they were 4 years ago due to the benefits changes.

Add to that,those who need the old DLA, now PIP. when they claim, many have had 6 to 9 months wait before even getting a decision.

The disabled and sick have been caused massive, unjust and unnecessary stress and worry as to the benefit changes.
Furthermore, it is pointed out in all analysis and on all programmes dealing with benefit issues, that only 0.8% of claimants are believed to be claiming wrongly or cheating the system.
That leaves 99.2% doing it right and claiming their just entitlements.

It is the demonisation and scapegoating of those on benefits as to being scroungers and fraudsters that is the real big lie from this rotten heartless govt.
The facts of the matter are that all those involved in the support of those disabled and sick,regularly say the disabled and sick are suffering now, losing out bigtime due to this govts. benefits changes.
Reforms which are saving very little,often if anything at all but which are costing near the earth to do.

I have to keep this carefully said but we got it sorted,not actually me myself but the law firm I am with,one case which was that someone on chemotherapy was told by the so called 'health assessors' as to ESA, that because they only got Chemotherapy every 10 days, that left days they could actually do some work.
They were really ill after chemotherapy, far weaker than they usually are but that just demonstrates what is going on all over the place.

I am glad people where you are, from what you say above, are not having that horrific nightmare to deal with but over probably most of the rest of the Country,I am afraid you would find the opposite of what you describe is more likely the real happenings of what is going on.
Sorry to disagree with you as often I think you make fair points but I know from all I have seen across the UK as to the sick and disabled, that more than are not, have been and still are, far worse off than before.
Only because of this govts. benefit reforms, nothing else.

It is why I have dedicated the greater part of my time since graduating in law to do all I can to help and advise these people, how to deal with and fight this rotten heartless govt. as to going through the courts to do so if necessary, to get their rightful benefits, that should never have been tampered with anyway, fully restored to them.

[GiRTh]

With full respect to you The TRUTH, that may well be the case where you happen to be but from all I have come across in my dealings with the disabled on a legal basis since graduation, it is far from what I see.

The disabled are having to battle in courts to get benefits restored that werwe wrongly removed them, there wa sa case where someone was on income support, was told they would have to now claim ESA, they did, theyw ere told in their view, on as paper decision, they were fit for work and would need to claim Jobseekers, they tried but were told they were too ill to claim Jobseekers yet were told theyw ere too fit to claim ESA.
It got settled after months of having hardly any income.

Charities, the CAB and welfare groups will happily tell you that the disabled and sick are far worse off now than they were 4 years ago due to the benefits changes.

Add to that,those who need the old DLA, now PIP. when they claim, many have had 6 to 9 months wait before ven getting a decision.

The disabled and sick have been caused massivem, unjust and unnecessary stress and worry as to the benefit changes.
Furthermore, it is pointed out in all analysis and on all programmes dealing with benefit issues, that only 0.85 of claimants are belived to be claiming wrongly or cheating the system.
That leaves 99.2% doing it right and claiming their just entitlements.

It is the demonisation and scapegoating of those on benefits as to being scroungers and fraudsters that is the real big lie from this rotten heartless govt.
Thee facts of the matter are that all those involved in the support of those disabled and sick,regularly say the disabled and sick are suffering now losing out bigtime due to this govts. benefits changes.
Reforms which are saving very little,often if anything at all but which are costing near the earth to do.

I have to keep this carefully said but we got it sorted,not actually me myself but the law firm I am with,one case which was that someone on chemotherapy was told by the so called 'health assessors' as to ESA, that because they only got Chemotherapy every 10 days, that left days they could actually do some work.
They were really ill after chemotherapy, far weaker than they usually are but that just demonstrates what is going on all over the place.

I am glad people where you are, from what you say above, are not having that horrific nightmare to deal with but over probably most of the rest of the Country,I am afraid you would find the opposite of what you describe is more likely the real happenings of what is going on.
Soryy to disagree with you as often I think you make fair points but I know from all I have seen across the UK as to the sick and disabled that more then are not, have been and still are, far worse off than before.
Only because of this govts. benefit reforms, nothing else.

It is why I have dedicated the greater part of my time since graduating in law to do all I can to help and advise these people how to deal with and fight this rotten heartless govt. as to going through the courts to do so if necessary, to get their rightful benefits, that should never have been tampered with anyway fully restored to them.:clap1:

[Mystic Mock]

With full respect to you The TRUTH, that may well be the case where you happen to be but from all I have come across in my dealings with the disabled on a legal basis since graduation, it is far from what I see.

The disabled are having to battle in courts to get benefits restored that werwe wrongly removed them, there wa sa case where someone was on income support, was told they would have to now claim ESA, they did, theyw ere told in their view, on as paper decision, they were fit for work and would need to claim Jobseekers, they tried but were told they were too ill to claim Jobseekers yet were told theyw ere too fit to claim ESA.
It got settled after months of having hardly any income.

Charities, the CAB and welfare groups will happily tell you that the disabled and sick are far worse off now than they were 4 years ago due to the benefits changes.

Add to that,those who need the old DLA, now PIP. when they claim, many have had 6 to 9 months wait before ven getting a decision.

The disabled and sick have been caused massivem, unjust and unnecessary stress and worry as to the benefit changes.
Furthermore, it is pointed out in all analysis and on all programmes dealing with benefit issues, that only 0.85 of claimants are belived to be claiming wrongly or cheating the system.
That leaves 99.2% doing it right and claiming their just entitlements.

It is the demonisation and scapegoating of those on benefits as to being scroungers and fraudsters that is the real big lie from this rotten heartless govt.
Thee facts of the matter are that all those involved in the support of those disabled and sick,regularly say the disabled and sick are suffering now losing out bigtime due to this govts. benefits changes.
Reforms which are saving very little,often if anything at all but which are costing near the earth to do.

I have to keep this carefully said but we got it sorted,not actually me myself but the law firm I am with,one case which was that someone on chemotherapy was told by the so called 'health assessors' as to ESA, that because they only got Chemotherapy every 10 days, that left days they could actually do some work.
They were really ill after chemotherapy, far weaker than they usually are but that just demonstrates what is going on all over the place.

I am glad people where you are, from what you say above, are not having that horrific nightmare to deal with but over probably most of the rest of the Country,I am afraid you would find the opposite of what you describe is more likely the real happenings of what is going on.
Soryy to disagree with you as often I think you make fair points but I know from all I have seen across the UK as to the sick and disabled that more then are not, have been and still are, far worse off than before.
Only because of this govts. benefit reforms, nothing else.

It is why I have dedicated the greater part of my time since graduating in law to do all I can to help and advise these people how to deal with and fight this rotten heartless govt. as to going through the courts to do so if necessary, to get their rightful benefits, that should never have been tampered with anyway fully restored to them.

A brilliant post Joey.

Also to The Truth, how am I contradicting myself that looking after the UK should be more of a priority for the UK Government than how they treat other countries? Of course our Government shouldn't alienate every country, but it's more important to have your people on side (including the disabled) and looked after so they don't hate your guts and you can't win Elections which is what keeps happening to these right wing parties because they behave like Dinosaurs, they're disgusting Human Beings that deserve all the abuse that they get.

[the truth]

With full respect to you The TRUTH, that may well be the case where you happen to be but from all I have come across in my dealings with the disabled on a legal basis since graduation, it is far from what I see.

The disabled are having to battle in courts to get benefits restored that werwe wrongly removed them, there wa sa case where someone was on income support, was told they would have to now claim ESA, they did, theyw ere told in their view, on as paper decision, they were fit for work and would need to claim Jobseekers, they tried but were told they were too ill to claim Jobseekers yet were told theyw ere too fit to claim ESA.
It got settled after months of having hardly any income.

Charities, the CAB and welfare groups will happily tell you that the disabled and sick are far worse off now than they were 4 years ago due to the benefits changes.

Add to that,those who need the old DLA, now PIP. when they claim, many have had 6 to 9 months wait before ven getting a decision.

The disabled and sick have been caused massivem, unjust and unnecessary stress and worry as to the benefit changes.
Furthermore, it is pointed out in all analysis and on all programmes dealing with benefit issues, that only 0.85 of claimants are belived to be claiming wrongly or cheating the system.
That leaves 99.2% doing it right and claiming their just entitlements.

It is the demonisation and scapegoating of those on benefits as to being scroungers and fraudsters that is the real big lie from this rotten heartless govt.
Thee facts of the matter are that all those involved in the support of those disabled and sick,regularly say the disabled and sick are suffering now losing out bigtime due to this govts. benefits changes.
Reforms which are saving very little,often if anything at all but which are costing near the earth to do.

I have to keep this carefully said but we got it sorted,not actually me myself but the law firm I am with,one case which was that someone on chemotherapy was told by the so called 'health assessors' as to ESA, that because they only got Chemotherapy every 10 days, that left days they could actually do some work.
They were really ill after chemotherapy, far weaker than they usually are but that just demonstrates what is going on all over the place.

I am glad people where you are, from what you say above, are not having that horrific nightmare to deal with but over probably most of the rest of the Country,I am afraid you would find the opposite of what you describe is more likely the real happenings of what is going on.
Soryy to disagree with you as often I think you make fair points but I know from all I have seen across the UK as to the sick and disabled that more then are not, have been and still are, far worse off than before.
Only because of this govts. benefit reforms, nothing else.

It is why I have dedicated the greater part of my time since graduating in law to do all I can to help and advise these people how to deal with and fight this rotten heartless govt. as to going through the courts to do so if necessary, to get their rightful benefits, that should never have been tampered with anyway fully restored to them.

the person with chemptherapy is an horrific story and yet another example of idiot politicians, heartless civil servants and the nightmare of big government ...........ive not read many specifics of such horror stories and would be interested to learn more, pls post links and i promise to read them all.....as for the vast majority of disabled people have you interviewed a cross section of disabled people and other people who have lost their benefits?

This government is a tory libs alliance nothing to do with ukip
secondly theyve targeted the workless millions who are able to work and do NOT have disabilities. theyve assessed millions and the vast majority of genuine cases people kept their benefits. in some cases theyve actually increased. however government always makes mistakes and theyve clearly made many. and in these cases these mistakes can be a matetr of life and death for thousands...however there is also an appeals procedure though hos taxing that is on the disabled is another question, I hope and pray the most vulnerable arent being exploited here.....

the moral issue here is disabled benefits are for the disabled not the workless demotivated people whose parents have patently failed to instill into them a work ethic and an ambition to better their lives. a line has to be drawn here , it is a moral line and career politicians have ducked moral issues for years...they tend to go with the crowd as do civil servants and even social workers simply to further their careers and keep their heads down.mavericks tend to be shooting stars who make and impact and get quietly moved aside

clearly this corrupting of the welfare state is partly as a result of broken homes and the entitlement culture. the lax drugs laws or rather the lax implementation of them has seen drug use and drug related crime go through the roof, this is also relevant to the cultural collapse in our society....the crime per head ratios in the UK are staggeringly higher than the US. under new labour the truth was buried under a super sized state. big government is one of the scariest things on mother earth. it measures what is spent, it measures what it achieves to promote itself, but it never measures the true damage done socially and economically through its wasteful ill conceived unaccountable spending.

why dont politicians speak of council waste, small government waste all over the UK? why are roads endless dug up by the gas board, then weeks later, the electricity board, then weeks later, the sewerage, weeks later, the water, then the tarmackers fill in the pot holes weeks later...then the gas board are back again? why dont these departments ever merge and simply try and unite and dig the roads up the same time whenever possible? does anyone ever measure how many billions this hurts our economy? the waste is endless and it hurts every other part of society


this goes for the utterly disastrous european constitution and the euro itself too............the US constitution is 15 pages, the EU one is 587 pages and no one has ever read it in full. chucking in 30 odd ancient nations with a mass of different cultures , climates, economies, wealth, natural resources, laws , etc etc all into one massive pile with one size fits all currency and laws for all, is insane enmasse.....if you want an analogy consider the EU is titanic, the iceberg is only 5 minutes away, but it will take the EU about 5 years to decide what to do and how to do it.....the ship has too many captains, no real leadership. no dorection, it has to go to a committee vote and some nations have the veto, some want to jump ship but dont have fishing or swimming rights etc etc guess what happens next.........its too big too burocratic too wasteful too unaccountable....frankly its horrifying

[Kizzy]

Joey raises excellent points as always and I would ask the UKIP supporters where they are on welfare and workers rights, the onus is on immigration so much what else do they propose will improve England?

[JoshBB]

Statistics are never going to be 100% accurate but... treble? Really? ... this is just nonsensical. Do you need to borrow a hyperspoon to help you dish this **** out of your hyperbole?



In both cases, "the majority"? Come on! No one is trying to claim that there aren't people out to abuse the system - both immigrants and people born and raised right here at home. Of course there are. There will always be people looking to exploit things to their advantage. But the MAJORITY of immigrants are dastardly, scheming layabouts who have some sort of supernatural ability to exploit loopholes and get away with it, that aren't being exploited by people here already? More nonsense.



The vast (VAST) majority of the benefits budget is spent on wage top-ups (tax credits, child benefits, etc.) for normal British families. Working families. Because full-time work on anything less than around £11 an hour is not enough to run a household at all let alone to any sort of decent standard. Even the "living wage" (£7.85) is an absolute joke, unless you believe that it's possible to run a household / support a family on < £15000 a year (hint: it isn't). So yes. Our benefits system mainly benefits those who need it: normal, working UK families with children. That is just how broken the UK wage structure vs. the cost of living is.




Again, all of them? If we stop immigration, all of these problems will suddenly be solved, I suppose? We'll be living in a utopia where everyone stops in the street to tip their cap and give a fine how-do-you-do? Yes, there are immigrants involved in organised crime. And white british people, too. Not to mention plenty of home-grown would be gangsters eager to step right up if indeed all of the immigrants were to be removed. The problem, then, is that we're not tackling organised crime very well, surely, rather than it being an immigration issue?




The terms "baby" and "bathwater" come to mind. You want better controlled immigration so let's elect people who are promising that, no matter what other prejudiced and small-minded policies they might have? Who CARES if they round up all of the gays and send them back to their homeland (la la land, is it?) so long as we also get rid of the dirty sand****ers running prostitution rings out of their ill-gotten council houses too, right? Yarrrrr and whar's me pitchfork?

Agree with this. Especially the last part.

[the truth]

Joey raises excellent points as always and I would ask the UKIP supporters where they are on welfare and workers rights, the onus is on immigration so much what else do they propose will improve England?

where are you on those topics? 8 million in 15 years, how do you propose we cope with another 8 million

[Nedusa]

hardly joey, lets not kid ourself about "scrutiny" etc - editors have told journos that UKIP stories are golddust and "go get them"

they are the flavour of the month and people want to use these stories to pigeon hole UKIP like people are doing in this thread

Lets ignore the fact that Farage speaks more sense than all 3 main leaders do and has been a welcome breath of fresh air to a failing political system - and just be vile about some fringe candidates etc.


It makes me think that people have forgotten about the antics of labour and the tories over the last decade?

unbelievable

Cameron and Millipede should be heaping congratulations on Farage for rescuing the reputation of the "Politician" from the toilet bowl where it was prior to his arrival.

Exactly.... They seemed to have forgotten that they work for us the voting public, at least Farage seems to have remembered that.




.

[Kizzy]

Exactly.... They seemed to have forgotten that they work for us the voting public, at least Farage seems to have remembered that.




.

Yes they do, therefore you would have thought that the UKIP candidates wouldn't do so much to alienate huge swathes of the electorate.....

[kirklancaster]

Statistics are never going to be 100% accurate but... treble? Really? ... this is just nonsensical. Do you need to borrow a hyperspoon to help you dish this **** out of your hyperbole?



Your quite hysterical opening gambit sets the style of this discussion but I will not reciprocate and will, instead, remain cool, rational, and factual - as always;

I would rather be accused of ‘hyperbole’ than actually be guilty of not only ‘making molehills out of mountains’, but also of being in a state of denial that the mountains even exist in the first place as you, and others on here sadly are.

I cannot answer your response in one post because its length would be prohibitive, so I will deal with each one separately, but before I do, I would like to state certain facts;

When it comes to formulating opinion – on any subject - we are all reliant on the same factors; intuition, inherent prejudices, and preferences shaped from our environment whilst growing up, direct personal knowledge gleaned through our own life experiences, and indirect knowledge learnt from reading, watching and listening.

There is nothing else. None of us are privy to the absolute truth.

Yet there is a vast difference between a biased opinion which is blinkered by political zealousness, and one that is detached from any political affiliation and which is purely objective as a result.

I’m afraid that you, and others like you belong to the first category, whilst I - for the following reasons - irrefutably belong to the latter.

'Inherent prejudices, and preferences shaped from our environment whilst growing up':

I was born and raised in poverty. My father – like his father and grandfather – was a coal miner and a life-long Labour supporter, so I grew up steeped in left wing politics, and was an active and avid Labour voter since before I was old enough to vote.

As I grew older and went into business and became moderately successful, my political stance did not change. I went on various marches, picket lines, and even wrote articles for certain Left-Wing publications.

During the 1984 – 85 ‘Miners Strike’, I owned a small ‘mini market’ in a suburb, and every week for almost a year, I allowed the wives of striking miners to fill boxes with provisions from my shelves for their strike fund in addition to personally donating as much cash as I could afford.

I stayed loyal to Labour until I became totally disenchanted with ‘New Labour’ under Tony Blair, after which, my votes wavered between Green, to no voting at all, then Tory.

'Direct personal knowledge gleaned through our own life experiences':
A sure-fire recipe for disaster in business is when a ‘Capitalist’ head is ruled by a ‘Socialist’ heart, and it takes a very special business person to successfully correlate the two. Unfortunately, I am not one.

I have been self employed for many years and some years ago directly employed 11 Polish ‘Tradesmen’ through a firm called 'Baltic Recruitment', paying considerable fees in the process.

I don’t care a fig if you believe me or not, but it transpired that of the 11 - 4 had faked their qualification documents and references, and were not tradesmen, 6 were thieves who were regularly stealing my stock on a grand scale and selling it, and 9 out the 11 were devious bastards who took on jobs on the side, using my vehicles and my tools, my equipment, and materials, and carried such jobs out during working hours when they should have been doing my work which I was paying them for.

As none of this came to light in a matter of days, it nearly ruined me financially, and they acted as they did despite the fact that I had provided good quality housing for them (not the shared squats they had all been living in under other employers) and spent thousands of pounds kitting them out with leisure clothing, work clothing and other personal effects, and treat them like 'friends' in every respect.

I have also been a landlord for many years and about 9 or 10 years ago – in line with ‘Market Forces’ – my properties had been let increasingly to immigrants.

With one exception – a Lithuanian family - these lets have been unmitigated disasters and also ended up virtually bankrupting me.

I personally let one 4 bedroom, fully refurbished property in Doncaster, to a Polish couple with 2 small children at a ‘Below Market’ value rent because I had a degree of sympathy for them because he worked but was on a low wage. After just 2 months of receiving the rent, it stopped, and they ended up owing me thousands of pounds over a year.

To cut a long story short, when I did eventually regain possession of my property, I discovered that they had been illegally sub-letting ‘shared’ rooms in the house to 13 other Poles at £50.00 per week each – yes that’s nearly £32,000 per year, yet they did not even pay their £4,800 per year rent to me. In addition, I had to pay for a locksmith to gain entry as they had illegally changed the locks and the property was virtually a wreck which cost me well over £12,000 to remedy before I could re-let the property.

I also had the same problem with some other properties, and as I was to learn, this problem of 'immigrant' tenants sub-letting properties was a nationwide problem.

Another modernised detached in Kent which was let to another Polish working ‘family’ had £28,000 of damage done to it as result of it being used as a ‘Farm’ to grow Cannabis.

Ditto a 3 bed terrace in Sheffield let to Latvians and £8,000 worth of damage.

Ditto a 3 bed flat in Birmingham let to Albanians with £15,000 of damage and hundreds in unpaid rent.

Ditto a 3 bed Detached in Nottingham let to Poles with £20,000 of damage and thousands in unpaid rent.

Need I list more?

Many other landlords have suffered the same experiences - they are very, very common.

In addition, and as previously stated on other threads, my business (and ensuing leisure) activities, have brought me into regular direct personal contact with Asians and ‘Foreign born’ Eastern Europeans over a number of years, and involved travelling abroad as well as travel within the UK, and as a result, let’s just say, that I have not only become familiar with their attitudes and their morals, but also covertly become ‘aware’ of certain of their practices.

'Indirect knowledge learnt from reading, watching and listening':

Though it should be remembered that all 'official' immigration statistics are 'manipulated' downwards for 'damage limitation' purposes, here are a few facts gleaned by the above - 'pick 'n mix' them as you want;

"90 per cent of all immigrants to the UK head to England."

"Since the UK opened its borders to Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants, it has become themost densely populated country in the EU, and the most overcrowded major country in Europe".

"Population growth is so rapid that four times as many people are crammed into just England as France and nearly twice as many as Germany.

Number of people living per square kilometre in 2015 - by country
• England - 419
• Holland - 408
• Wales - 258
• Germany - 226
• Italy - 205
• N. Ireland - 130
• Poland - 123
• Portugal - 116
• France - 105
• Romania - 89
• Bulgaria - 66
• Scotland – 40

" By 2046, an astonishing 494 people will be living in each square kilometre (in England), compared to 115 for France, 204 for Germany, and 120 for Poland – where an estimated one million of the arrivals under Labour ‘s ‘Open Door Policy’ originated from."

(This figure is ridiculously understated - there are millions more Polish living in in the UK , as those indigenous British whose communities they live in full well know.)

"Net migration nearly quadrupled from 48,000 in 1997 to 185,000 in 2003. Once the East Europeans had been granted free movement in 2004 it peaked at 320,000 in the year ending June 2005."

('Peaked' at 320,000 in June 2005 - almost 10 years ago - what is the real figure now?)

"The latest ONS provisional estimates of Long Term International Migration (LTIM) show that net migration stood at 260,000 in the year ending June 2014. This is up from 182,000 in the year ending June 2013. This was a statistically significant increase."

(Significant increase? Even allowing for the fact that all .’official’ figures are ‘massaged’ downwards for ‘damage limitation’ purposes, this figure is a joke – more than 260,000 immigrants flooded into just Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Lincolnshire last year, never mind the rest of the country.)

"The UK population is projected to grow by over 9 million (9.4m) in just 25 years’ time, increasing from 64 million in 2013 to 73 million by 2039. Of this increase, about two thirds is projected to be due to future migrants and their children - the equivalent of the current populations of Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Manchester, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Bristol, Cardiff, Newcastle, Belfast and Aberdeen".

(Again, these figures are understated.)

"Government figures show 3.8million people came to Britain from abroad between 1997 and 2010 - more than the 3.7million who came during the previous 50 years."

(More immigrants flooded into Britain in three years than the total for the previous 50 years! Think about that. )

"The breakdown comes from an analysis of the ten-yearly census carried out in March 2011. The figures have already revealed that at the time there were almost half a million more people living in the country than previously suspected".

"More than half of those arrived over the ten years since 2001, according to analysis of the 2011 census."

(These figures do not take into account the 4 years since that 2011 Census, nor the fact that no census is comprehensive because tens of thousands of residents do not participate in such information giving. Then there are the million or so illegal immigrants who certainly do not.)

"Britain’s total illegal population is by its nature very difficult to measure but a report by the London School of Economics in 2009 gave an upper estimate of 863,000."

(In 2009 a figure of 863,000 was low, but taking into account the influx from Easter Europe in the 6 years since, it is not now even the tip of the iceberg.)

"UK's Roma population is much higher than previously thought. New research estimates that there are 200,000 Roma living in the UK, despite government claims that "relatively few" had settled in the country."

(Again, a very low estimate.)

"In 2013 over half a million migrants arrived in Britain, more than the total population of Bradford."

"Net migration into the UK increased by more than 38% to 243,000 in 2013-14, government statisticians have said. The ONS said the increase in overall net migration was "statistically significant", meaning it is "very likely to reflect real changes in migration patterns".

"The number of migrants from Romania and Bulgaria increased from 12,000 to 28,000 over the period. Employment restrictions on citizens of the two countries were lifted in January"

(A 38% increase is certainly "statistically significant", so how much more "statistically significant" would the real, much higher figures be?)

"EU citizens - including an increased number from Romania and Bulgaria - accounted for two-thirds of the growth from the previous figure of 175,000.
Separate figures showed over 25% of births in England and Wales last year were to mothers themselves born abroad."

"There was also a rise in the proportion of people in the UK who were born overseas."

"According to the migration figures from the Office for National Statistics, a total of 560,000 immigrants arrived in the UK over the 12-month period to March - An increasing number came to the UK to join family members."

"For the first time in nearly three years, the number of people migrating to the UK from outside the EU increased, to 265,000. All the figures are for the 12-month period up to March."

(So on top of astronomical numbers of immigrants from within the EU, we are also witnessing huge increases in non-EU immigration into the UK.)

"Every year for the past 20, more people have been arriving in the UK than leaving. The reasons for those movements are complex and have regularly changed."

"As the British economy grows faster than other parts of Europe, workers will continue to arrive - and the net migration target moves further and further out of reach."

(This is highly significant; because it means that we suffer an increasing influx of ‘worker’ immigrants during a booming economy, or suffer an increasing influx of ‘shirker’ immigrants if our economy is faltering. Either way we are dammed.)
.................................................. .................

So; far from being ‘Hyperbole’, my post is closer to the truth than the deliberately ‘doctored’ low figures on immigration from official and pro-left sources - as the overwhelming documentary statistical evidence proves – if one approaches such evidence with a completely open mind, and one is willing to also ‘read between the lines’ of official statistics and statements.

I have lived longer than you, so have greater life experience. I have been poor, comparatively wealthy, then poor again. I have been both employed and an employer. I have a great wealth of direct experience with immigrants – both on a personal and business level – and an insight into their attitudes, affiliations and morality. I have no rigid political stance – preferring to vote because of specific elements in given manifestos rather than blind support for any party irrespective of its policies or lack of them, or because of any irrational detestation of other parties due to ill-founded preconceptions about their ideologies.

The above being true, my views on unfettered immigration and its catastrophic effects on this country, are not shaped by racism or fascism, but borne of patriotism for this great democratic country and a genuine love of its indigenous people – a people who are not only endangered but doomed if the minority left wing extremists have their way and immigration continues unfettered.

And ‘minority’ in this democratic country is what such ‘left wing extremists’ are – as the excerpt below attests:

“The public have, for many years now, expressed their concern about levels of immigration and the impact that this had on housing, public services, and the labour market. 94% of Britons think that Britain is ‘full up’ and 79% of people in England think that England is ‘overcrowded’. While the public are sufficiently nuanced to welcome highly skilled workers and students to our best universities, they are aware of the impacts of high levels of immigration on public services with 76% believing that immigration has placed too much pressure on health, transport and education and 69% believing that immigration has had a negative impact on the availability of housing. We must build a new home every seven minutes for new migrants for the next 20 years or so.”

The above being so, the ‘left wing extremist’ view on immigration is just one more example of an ‘active’ vociferous minority trying to impose their will upon the passive majority – a la the hackers with the Sony ‘The Interview’ incident, and every terrorist organisation in human history.

Just as with the above examples, God help the UK if the ‘left wing extremists’ succeed in stifling the views of the majority and in intimidating politicians and the media into not addressing immigration, or telling the truth about it, for fear of being labelled 'racist' by hysterical loonies or sinister organisations with covert agendas.

[Kizzy]

Ditto with 'right wing loonies, your experiences are unfortunate but it comes from,and this is harsh but your own desire to exploit from what I can see.
Employing low paid workers using a recruitment firm with no way of exploring quals and references adequately when in the north tradesmen and ex miners are crying out for jobs.
Renting your properties to similar low paid workers and then blackening the whole of eastern Europe when said handful are found to be unsuitable.
Cutting corners, paying dodgy firms set up for profit are a recipe for disaster and you were stung, it's a life lesson perhaps that the toryboy life comes with it's own pitfalls?

[kirklancaster]

Quote: ArchAngel;7436025]"Ditto with 'right wing loonies, your experiences are unfortunate but it comes from,and this is harsh but your own desire to exploit from what I can see."


What? :shrug:

Is it some type of sickness with you lefties? How do you conclude what you have written from what I actually posted?

How do you justify that it was my "own desire to exploit from what I can see." from what I wrote?

I had no desire to "exploit" anyone and never intimated as much nor stated as much and it is either dishonesty or arrogance to presume otherwise. The fact is that I paid all the Polish workers the same rate as my English ones - above industry pay rates.

"Employing low paid workers using a recruitment firm with no way of exploring quals and references adequately when in the north tradesmen and ex miners are crying out for jobs."


"Employing low paid workers" is yet more pure blinkered left wing political arrogance and unjustified assumption and I have dealt with this above.

I used a recruitment firm because at the time I am referring to there was an economic boom and the property market had soared to record levels, which meant that new building and construction was also at record breaking levels, which meant that there was a dearth of qualified and skilled English construction and building workers. As my business was also booming, and in accordance with other companies, I had no real choice but to use 'foreign' construction tradesmen. Ex miner's hardly fitted the bill. Would you have been happy to pay me if I had used ex miners to refurbish your house and the standard of workmanship was botched because they weren't tradesmen?

Maybe you would have stayed true to your 'lefty at all costs mentality' and thought; "Oh well, it's OK because they're ex-miners", but somehow, I think not. .

As for "using a recruitment firm with no way of exploring quals and references" how do you know any of the facts to be able to state this?

You don't. But then, when do left wing extremists ever let the truth and facts get in the way of their ideology?

The facts are that it was a British company, was British based, and had great reviews from other builders who had used it. Nowhere in my post do I attribute any blame to this company - only to the Poles who furnished the fake but expertly faked - CV documents, references and qualifications, which I did check and which the recruitment agency checked. .

It transpired that a company in Poland was creating just such documents for Poles to help them land jobs here and the same company had operatives answering mail, e mail and telephone enquiries from British employers carrying out 'Due Diligence' and following up references.

"Renting your properties to similar low paid workers and then blackening the whole of eastern Europe when said handful are found to be unsuitable.
Cutting corners, paying dodgy firms set up for profit are a recipe for disaster and you were stung, it's a life lesson perhaps that the toryboy life comes with it's own pitfalls?"

LMAO :joker: -- If your posts are typical of Labour supporters now, then there's no wonder that no one in this country takes Labour seriously anymore, and no wonder that the 'Left' are disproportionately worried by UKIP and the fact that the majority of the 'Great British Public' now identify more with some of its policies than those of Labour or the Tories, because you continue to misread what is written, rewrite what you misread, and jump to conclusions about an article - the analysis of which, clearly shows no justification for such conclusions. :shrug:

I wrote of one example where I rented one property to one low-paid worker, and I lowered the rent considerably from the going Market Rent, because he was low-paid. But typically for a blinkered lefty who cares nothing for the truth, instead of applauding me for an act which should be close to your socialist heart, you choose to try to cynically distort the truth of what I wrote, to make it appear that I am actually exploiting the low paid in order to make it fit your anti-capitalist dogmatic viewpoint.

Shame on you. :nono:

As for: "blackening the whole of eastern Europe when said handful are found to be unsuitable."

Firstly; I have never referred to 'just a handful' anywhere in my post. I made it perfectly clear that I was not even listing the full extent of my repeated experiences with immigrant tenants by my use of the question; "Need I list more". In addition, I repeatedly stated that the problems which I encountered were not exclusive to me, but were "Nationwide" and that; "Many other landlords have suffered the same experiences - they are very, very common."

Where does this suggest "a handful"? - which even to a left winger must mean the number 5 (5 digits?).

Secondly; I never referred to "the whole of Eastern Europe" - you 'lefties' really must stop cynically misconstruing facts to suit your agenda - I was referring specifically to 'immigrant Eastern Europeans'.

Immigrants.

You know - those fit, strong, healthy, and able, 18 to 30 something males which first 'fled' to this country in their tens of thousands as 'asylum seekers', having passed several other 'safe' haven countries to do so, and having left women and children behind and at the mercy of those 'persecuting' them back in their own countries. Or not.

Immigrants.
You know. The opportunists who have flocked here in their millions - as opposed to those other less mercenary, less opportunist Eastern Europeans who have remained in their own countries, whom I am not referring to and haven't.

As for: "Cutting corners, paying dodgy firms set up for profit are a recipe for disaster and you were stung, it's a life lesson perhaps that the toryboy life comes with it's own pitfalls?"

I have never "cut corners" on anything which I do - the length and comprehensiveness of my posts are an indication of that - and I pride myself on my very hard work initiative (I regularly worked up to 16 hours per day and still do) and the fact that I am meticulous in everything which I do.

Nor did I "pay dodgy firms" - I paid the going fees for a service to a reputable firm which did nothing wrong but were misled by organised foreign fraudsters - as are all British Banks - but that's another post.

As for; "and you were stung, it's a life lesson perhaps that the toryboy life comes with it's own pitfalls?" Oh boy - a lot of you 'Lefties' cannot conceal your bitterness - it permeates everything which you spout and do. (I mean 'lefties by the way and not all 'Labour' supporters because there is a difference).

I am not, and have never been a 'Toryboy'. Yes - I have voted Tory, as I have voted 'Green' and as I have mostly voted Labour, because, as I have stressed, I am not some rigid extremist who slavishly - and irrationally - follows any party blindly just because that is what I have always done.

I have very little regard for any politician, and never have had - apart from Enoch Powell and Tony Benn, whose integrity and sincerity was beyond question, and who both talked a lot of sense but who were pilloried and ostracised and marginalised by less sincere and lesser politicians for their 'lack of moderation'.

Anyway; before I leave you to carry on looking at life's reality with your vision severely restricted by your 'blinkers' , and your ability to actually read posts, then recognise what is actually being stated before misconstruing, misquoting and mis-presuming, in serious question, I will point out to you; that you are so blinded by your own skewed dogma, that you actually miss the point of what I, LeatherTrumpet, The Truth , and others are saying - that we are not advocating a total ban on all immigration, just tighter controls in order to halt the flood.

We are not blaming all the problems which beset this country on immigrants - we are saying that unfettered immigration adds to those problems.

We cannot afford unfettered immigration.

Our services are underfunded now and at breaking point.

We are a comparatively tiny island and have not the space which unfettered immigration dictates. We have only the land we have - they are not making anymore.

Now I have work to do. Bye. :wavey:

[Kizzy]

I'm sorry it just seems so contradictory to suggest in one breath that you sought out men to work and live in the UK, and in the next breath be moaning that Mr Foreigner is taking all the work and space... :conf:

[the truth]

reverse racism is a massive problem in the uk and does as much damage as racism itself...most of the this reverese racism just like reverse sexism comes from the labour party

[the truth]

its hilarious how the far left lunatics running this assylum preach about business and raising wages and their exaggerations about employing illegal immigrants cheap, theyve never run businesses never had the balls to employ people which is why they know absolutely nothing about business...they exist in the fantasy world of the public secotr where the figures never add up, the accounts are always late, the debts are always bigger and never paid off....and of course they all close at 4.30pm and get drunk for a fortnight every Christmas..........if the whole country was run like local government wed all be 6 foot under. thank God for the free market

[Kizzy]

reverse racism is a massive problem in the uk and does as much damage as racism itself...most of the this reverese racism just like reverse sexism comes from the labour party

I though we were discussing the reverse tolerance of UKIP?

[the truth]

I though we were discussing the reverse constipation that is UKIP?

reverse constipation is good, you should try it

[Kizzy]

reverse constipation is good, you should try it

It's bad enough listening to it on here :laugh:

[joeysteele]

Hi Kirklancaster, I just want to say although I don't always agree with you I did really enjoy your post,a lot of info there and I was pleased to hear of your role during the Miners strike times too.

I think to be fair on a couple of things.
Labour will find it hard to win over great numbers after the problems at the end of the last Labour govt.
In fact it is hard for any party after going out of office to be voted back after only one term in opposition because that trust again is withheld,even though the mood has softened.
I too would have had no time for Tony Blair,which is why I am pleased with the direction Ed Miliband is taking labour now overall, not totally.

However, I do not think it is only the left who push forward their agenda as to the EU and immigration, I think in fact, the right, from this govt. those with power and influence and then the media particularly give a totally distorted presentation of the EU and immigration with their prejudiced agenda.
So much so,that I believe for the ordinary voter, there will be no chance at all of a straightforward informative and fair debate possible as to the EU and immigration.

I also think this present disaster of a PM with his procrastination as to the EU and immigration and indeed failure as to all his targets for immigration are dangerous for the UK.
This man has talked for the last 2+ years as to the EU and settling the issue.
He has let it ride for that time and then would take a further 2+ years to do some re-negotiations,(if we ever hear what they are),or even if he himself even knows what he will re-negotiate anyway.
Then he talks of a referendum sometime by the end of his next 3rd year of govt.

He talks a lot but does nothing in the main and the uncertainty of all that time as to our future in the EU and as to immigration,all that probably brings to the UK is really big confusion and instability in my view.

I am not a leftie by the way,I hate the term.
I was a strong Conservative from a Conservative voting background but whereas you turned to the Conservatives from your experiences of the past.
I have from all I have seen over these last few years,as to the persecution and heartlessness showed to the weakest,poorest and most vulnerable in the UK by this govt;I have turned,heavily too,from the Conservatives.

I do not think anyone vulnerable in the 21st century in a so called decent society should be brought down the way this govt. has done so as to them over the last near 5 years now.
There is nothing at all for those who are vulnerable in the present Conservative party led by David Cameron,a man who is now obsessed almost in following the agenda laid out by UKIP to win votes.

Since this thread is about UKIP really,therein lies another question and answer for me.
Those most vulnerable in the UK have no hope of anything better, or indeed anything at all from UKIP, so despite the smiles and joviality from Nigel Farage,he is someone I would likely trust less than David Cameron and that really isn't saying anything from me as to either of them.

I do love your posts however and respect your views.

[the truth]

Hi Kirklancaster, I just want to say although I don't always agree with you I did really enjoy your post,a lot of info there and I was pleased to hear of your role during the Miners strike times too.

I think to be fair on a couple of things.
Labour will find it hard to win over great numbers after the problems at the end of the last Labour govt.
In fact it is hard for any party after going out of office to be voted back after only one term in opposition because that trust again is withheld,even though the mood has softened.
I too would have had no time for Tony Blair,which is why I am pleased with the direction Ed Miliband is taking labour now overall, not totally.

However, I do not think it is only the left who push forward their agenda as to the EU and immigration, I think in fact, the right, from this govt. those with power and influence and then the media particularly give a totally distorted presentation of the EU and immigration with their prejudiced agenda.
So much so,that I believe for the ordinary voter, there will be no chance at all of a straightforward informative and fair debate possible as to the EU and immigration.

I also think this present disaster of a PM with his procrastination as to the EU and immigration and indeed failure as to all his targets for immigration are dangerous for the UK.
This man has talked for the last 2+ years as to the EU and settling the issue.
He has let it ride for that time and then would take a further 2+ years to do some re-negotiations,(if we ever hear what they are),or even if he himself even knows what he will re-negotiate anyway.
Then he talks of a referendum sometime by the end of his next 3rd year of govt.

He talks a lot but does nothing in the main and the uncertainty of all that time as to our future in the EU and as to immigration,all that probably brings to the UK is really big confusion and instability in my view.

I am not a leftie by the way,I hate the term.
I was a strong Conservative from a Conservative voting background but whereas you turned to the Conservatives from your experiences of the past.
I have from all I have seen over these last few years,as to the persecution and heartlessness showed to the weakest,poorest and most vulnerable in the UK by this govt;I have turned,heavily too,from the Conservatives.

I do not think anyone vulnerable in the 21st century in a so called decent society should be brought down the way this govt. has done so as to them over the last near 5 years now.
There is nothing at all for those who are vulnerable in the present Conservative party led by David Cameron,a man who is now obsessed almost in following the agenda laid out by UKIP to win votes.

Since this thread is about UKIP really,therein lies another question and answer for me.
Those most vulnerable in the UK have no hope of anything better, or indeed anything at all from UKIP, so despite the smiles and joviality from Nigel Farage,he is someone I would likely trust less than David Cameron and that really isn't saying anything from me as to either of them.

I do love your posts however and respect your views.

I 100% disagree with your last paragraph. the nhs is better under this tory government, despite the disastrous economy labour left. labour are still obsessed with unions , quangos and cover ups. thats exactly what happened to the nhs and the disgraceful events of stafford hospital must NEVER EVER be forgotten. labour would never truly investigate their own unions and expose them. too many votes. so you end up with russian style cover ups. minus the plutonium, but the end results are just as deadly. its interesting to note under new labour as the government jobs/state grew out of control yet again and the waste did too....yet fewer people were sacked and fewer people were employed in investigating mistakes or with the ombudsman which fell apart

the disabled people will have a far better chance under this government. why? because the disabled keep their benefits and have them increased, the lazy workshy fops who scrounge off the state and refuse to work are being weeded out thankfully. there are millions of them , healthy often young people. the economy is miles stronger under the tories which in turn has put an extra million into work and brought the unemployment rate down to its lowest level in 6 years and growth at a record high. yes the figures are always doctored but measured on the same basis as under new labout, the tories have done infinitely better on the economy already.

however.....manufacturing industrial jobs should be top priority....better paid jobs should be a top priority. increasing minimum wage would be a big mistake as it will raise unemployment and inflation. the working tax credits system shouldbe simplified to encourage more to work and it should also be simplified with regards to housing benefits so people dont feel the fear of losing their rented homes

new labour created division, they festered the poltics of envy....they created the fakest shallowest society weve ever seen, with endless petty new laws invading every civil liberty...to such an extent that free speech no longer exists, conversation is bannned...anyone who even questions the prevailing thinking is cast out as a racist a sexist or bigot...whata dreadfully unhealthy state of mind...whilst all this politically correct drivel carried on unabataed by substandard politicians and journalists too scared to dare question it all......... we were preaching endlessly on minute petty political cirrect matters on race and religion..meanwhile we were bombing the hell out of these very same cultures and religions overseas? .a society was created purely about image and spin and buzzwords...as long as you were agood person on paper and no liability fell on your lap then all is fine...

actually being a good person was irrelevant, in fact it became frowned upon as strange, maverick and most such people got marginalized or ostracized, such as tony benn for example...mocked by new labour and their spin doctors as a dinasaur ...dinosaur my ass? he was a genuine and greta man who dared speak from the heart eloquently, decently and intelligently...beneath the expensive waste and gimmicks, vanity projects and illegal wars. I believe the last government was the worst in british history. the rich poor divide became wider than since the days of charles dickens. society became far far more broken up than even under thatcherism and whatever was left was broken up and handed to europe and the fragmented farce of devolution abnd endless more layers of burocracy, waste, civil service.... new labour totally corrupted britain from within

[Vicky.]

the disabled people will have a far better chance under this government. why? because the disabled keep their benefits and have them increased, the lazy workshy fops who scrounge off the state and refuse to work are being weeded out thankfully. there are millions of them , healthy often young people.

This is completely untrue and I have no idea where you are getting this from tbh. It has been proved 100x over that the work capability assessment are unfit for purpose and are not weeding out the fraud, instead they are punishing genuine disabled people. They were unfit under labour (who I believe, incidentally brought in ATOS to begin with) and the current government made it even harder to pass the ridiculous test. Doctors are against it.

When people die days after being pronounced 'fit for work', when people in constant pain recieve '0 points' and are forced to go on JSA, people with the mental age of children are apparently fine top work...come on. You know this isnt right. There are literally thousands of stories about people who are disabled being told they are not by ATOS.

Disabled people are being royally screwed over. Also, the majority have had benefits decreased, not increased, with the introduction of PIP instead of DLA...

[kirklancaster]

Hi Kirklancaster, I just want to say although I don't always agree with you I did really enjoy your post,a lot of info there and I was pleased to hear of your role during the Miners strike times too.

I do love your posts however and respect your views.

Thanks Joey, and sincerely - the feeling is mutual. I truly respect your political knowledge, admire your passion and integrity, and love reading your posts.

I don't really feel that we're much apart on political thinking, not really considering all elements.

I just feel that it's a tragedy for the UK that we can't just select the best, most proficient, most passionate, most sincere politicians from all parties to form one Government, and take the best, most sensible policies from all parties manifestos to form one.

[joeysteele]

I 100% disagree with your last paragraph. the nhs is better under this tory government, despite the disastrous economy labour left. labour are still obsessed with unions , quangos and cover ups. thats exactly what happened to the nhs and the disgraceful events of stafford hospital must NEVER EVER be forgotten. labour would never truly investigate their own unions and expose them. too many votes. so you end up with russian style cover ups. minus the plutonium, but the end results are just as deadly. its interesting to note under new labour as the government jobs/state grew out of control yet again and the waste did too....yet fewer people were sacked and fewer people were employed in investigating mistakes or with the ombudsman which fell apart

the disabled people will have a far better chance under this government. why? because the disabled keep their benefits and have them increased, the lazy workshy fops who scrounge off the state and refuse to work are being weeded out thankfully. there are millions of them , healthy often young people. the economy is miles stronger under the tories which in turn has put an extra million into work and brought the unemployment rate down to its lowest level in 6 years and growth at a record high. yes the figures are always doctored but measured on the same basis as under new labout, the tories have done infinitely better on the economy already.

however.....manufacturing industrial jobs should be top priority....better paid jobs should be a top priority. increasing minimum wage would be a big mistake as it will raise unemployment and inflation. the working tax credits system shouldbe simplified to encourage more to work and it should also be simplified with regards to housing benefits so people dont feel the fear of losing their rented homes

new labour created division, they festered the poltics of envy....they created the fakest shallowest society weve ever seen, with endless petty new laws invading every civil liberty...to such an extent that free speech no longer exists, conversation is bannned...anyone who even questions the prevailing thinking is cast out as a racist a sexist or bigot...whata dreadfully unhealthy state of mind...whilst all this politically correct drivel carried on unabataed by substandard politicians and journalists too scared to dare question it all......... we were preaching endlessly on minute petty political cirrect matters on race and religion..meanwhile we were bombing the hell out of these very same cultures and religions overseas? .a society was created purely about image and spin and buzzwords...as long as you were agood person on paper and no liability fell on your lap then all is fine...

actually being a good person was irrelevant, in fact it became frowned upon as strange, maverick and most such people got marginalized or ostracized, such as tony benn for example...mocked by new labour and their spin doctors as a dinasaur ...dinosaur my ass? he was a genuine and greta man who dared speak from the heart eloquently, decently and intelligently...beneath the expensive waste and gimmicks, vanity projects and illegal wars. I believe the last government was the worst in british history. the rich poor divide became wider than since the days of charles dickens. society became far far more broken up than even under thatcherism and whatever was left was broken up and handed to europe and the fragmented farce of devolution abnd endless more layers of burocracy, waste, civil service.... new labour totally corrupted britain from within


Well it will come as no surprise to say I disagree with most of that, after all we had terrible times and recessions under the previous 18 years of Conservative govt.
All our asssets were sold off to help cover that a little but the disastrous ERM joining fiasco and chaos that followed that were more signs of incompetence from the then Govt too.

I have to however and I am never likely going to change your mind but I need to say this.
The NHS was on its knees in 1997 at the end of the 18 years of Conservative govt.
I have an Uncle who is a Consultant, another who is a GP and 2 cousins who are Doctors in the NHS.I also have cousins employed as Nursing staff and in other care areas of the NHS.

They all say the NHS is in danger under this govt, they hated the reforms that were done without the public support and the clear thing is that the NHS needs regular and good investement and this gov. has no desire to go anywhere near enough to ensure that takes place.

Stafford was a disgrace, as were the deaths of people on trollies alongside wards under the Conservative govt of 1979 to 1997, where wards were closed to save on heating and not having enough Nurses to man them.
There will always be,to be fair, problems across the NHS in some places.

In something as large as the NHS and nationwide, it would be impossible for any govt. to not have some disasters and problems at times.
However, the NHS is in a lot of trouble again now, only 4+ years from these taking power,they carried out costly reforms no one wanted or voted for and that also were not in their manifesto either.
This has caused massive delays, confusion and disillusionment among NHS staff from Consultants to the nursing staff too.

I also take issue with you as to Labour and the Unions. why is it we get Labour and the Unions argument all the time while really big business and the Conservatives are let off unscathed.
Funding has to come from somewhere, the voters and taxpayers would not want to supply the funding for politicial parties so they need it from somewhere,and I see nothing wrong at all with the Unions supporting Labour, there would have never been a Labour party likely without the trade union movement.
Neither do I see anything wrong,with no other means in place, for big business to support and fund the Conservative party.
However, I don't think Labour is obsessed with the Unions at all, from the grumblings of the Union leaders,it is clear that Ed Miliband is not giving them what they want in any shape or form really at present.

In govt. it is rare to see big business turn against a Conservative PM and govt; that is not the case with Labour however from the late 70s.
It was in fact Unions that helped bring down the Labour govt in 1978/9 becasue that Labour Govt. was not doing what they hoped for in the end.
The Unions got next to nothing from Tony Blair's governments so I do refute your claim as to Labour and the Unions now at this time.

Not that I think all that Unions say and want are wrong either,however if Labour was obsessed as you say with the Unions, then Labour would be going much further as to policy and setting out to re-nationalise the energy industry, the water industry and the rail networks too, just to name 3.

Oddly enough, maybe the Unions are more in touch with a large public opinion because I actually believe were labour to at least be looking at taking back into state ownership the energy companies,that would,I think, have votes flying in to support that policy.

As I say I respect your views but I am not what could or should be termed a leftie,I don't call people righties.
I have moved across the political divide myself to be a now Labour supporter, in the hope of social justice, compassion and sensitivity in dealing with the most vulnerable.
I also believe strongly in a supported and nurtured NHS, I have seen no evidence at all of that from this govt. as to the NHS so that's another reason I crossed the political divide.
Not to be a leftie or a rightie or a centrist,just to see some decency come back to govt. policy and I see little in the way of understanding,caring and compassion on the things and people I have come to care about from this heartless govt.

I would like to see too, the unemployment figures with those on zero hours or 16 hour contracts a week added to it,what are the real unemployment figures for those 'not' in full time work,that don't include the zero hours so called employed and the small 16 hour contracts now in operation,especially in supermarkets.
All govts are clever at making statistics say what they want them to say.

As for the disabled getting increases, that is not so,I agree with Vicky above,who makes the points far stronger and better that I could.

Disabled benefits have increased in part but nothing like what they need to to have kept pace with the cost of living rises we have had under this govt for almost 3 tears in a row.
In fact the disabled are worse off now in real terms, as are in fact those workers in part time or zero hours contract work who are having to rely in part on 'further' benefits to help them just keep going.

The figures of unemployment and the employed are all well and good but the realities are, that those at the lowest end of the scale of things, those sick and disabled and unemployed are greatly worse off now than in 2010,even just after that global recession and banking crisis.

A banking crisis by the way that would have still hit everwhere anyway, especially in the UK no matter what govt. was in power, since the Conservatives actually strongly believed the Banking industry should have been 'less regulated' before that crash came.

[Kizzy]

That's so very true, all you and Vicky have said Joey and less regulation means less scrutiny into banking practices, no unions mean less workers rights... we are being dragged backwards at an alarming rate.
For as much progress society had made with productivity and industry in the UK it's all gone, there's nothing left but a hand to mouth existance for huge swathes of the country as it was circa 1900s.

[joeysteele]

That's so very true, all you and Vicky have said Joey and less regulation means less scrutiny into banking practices, no unions mean less workers rights... we are being dragged backwards at an alarming rate.
For as much progress society had made with productivity and industry in the UK it's all gone, there's nothing left but a hand to mouth existance for huge swathes of the country as it was circa 1900s.

I think that is seen by most of the electorate Kizzy, it is just the opposition to the likes of UKIP and the Conservatives are not banding under one party to ensure they are out.
However,I am not that fearful of the 2015 election, the Conservatives have never passed 37% in a general election since 1992,nearly a quarter of a century ago.

They are nowhere near that even now and I also believe that it is down to just over a third of voters who now have that more hardline thinking as to govt. policy.
So for me the Conservatives are never going to likely hit more than 35/6% in the future for possibly even more decades to come.
That will mean for sure, they will never likely get an overall majority,possibly even ever again.

All they have done in this Parliament is alienate most of the other parties.
There will, I think, be the strongest anti Conservative vote in the next house of commons that there has likely been from the other parties, save from UKIP and the DUP.

[Kizzy]

I think there has for a long time been a collaboration between the tories and UKIP, they are looking to be the next coalition that's why their MPs are interchangable.

[the truth]

That's so very true, all you and Vicky have said Joey and less regulation means less scrutiny into banking practices, no unions mean less workers rights... we are being dragged backwards at an alarming rate.
For as much progress society had made with productivity and industry in the UK it's all gone, there's nothing left but a hand to mouth existance for huge swathes of the country as it was circa 1900s.

you need more regulation and more scrutiny of nhs boards and the hospitals...you also need to seriously strengthen the powers of the ombudsmen and recruit more staff. the regulations themselves need to focus on the patients 100% and not the staff. the patients are what matters most. this message has been lost, hence why thousands have died from neglect at the hands of disgusting sub standard staff at our supposedly great british hospitals. this ALL happened under new labour. they should never ever be trusted again

there have never ever been diasters as big as that under any other government. worse still though labour actively sought to cover it all up. new labour didnt care about the lives lost, the stinking corruption, all they did was cover it up ignore it because they darent upset the nhs or nursing unions....votes and power meant more to them than lives. the uber liberal bbc barely even touched on these disgusting state of british hospitals and these monstrous scandals until years later and thousands more were dead. thousands actually died of thirst in our hopsitals, 25000 a year died from blood clots they picked up in british hospitals that were left undiagnosed, our hospitals were 70 times dirtier than scandinavian hospitals and mrsa was rife. new labour fiddled while the hospitals burned. im more than aware what maggie thatcher did to the uk and destroying manbufacturing. however new labour had ample time to overturn any of her policies and bring back the industrial strength and guess what they did nothing.

in 13 years they did what? destroyed our culture, sold us out to europe, created 1000s of new stupid laws, ruined our civil liberties, destroyed freedom of speech, destroyed families, created an entire generation of 10 million on welfare dependancy (attracting more easy long term voters for new labour) , deregulation of the banks and taking power from the bank of england, world record public and private debts, complete collapse of the housing market, failure to build social housing, illegal wars which saw over 1 million innocents killed, endless vanity projects costing tax payers 100s of millions like the dome, employing crooks in government, in bed with the tabloids , up to their eyeballs in spin bribes and backhanders, spindoctors running the cabinet, increased population of 8 million in less than 20 years due mainly to open door immigration policy with virtually no points system, unlike almost every other western country?....the list goes on and on..........end result....highest drug rates in europe, some of the highest violent crime per head in europe, virtual bankruptcy, teen pregnancies at all time high, enormous debts, 3 recessions, housing collapse etc etc the list of disasters goes on and on.........they achieved NOTHING

[the truth]

I think there has for a long time been a collaboration between the tories and UKIP, they are looking to be the next coalition that's why their MPs are interchangable.

that is 100% wrong. the tories are scared to death of ukip fearing they will steal their far right voters. thats partly why ukip formed because cameron is seen as too liberal by the hardliners.

[joeysteele]

Thanks Joey, and sincerely - the feeling is mutual. I truly respect your political knowledge, admire your passion and integrity, and love reading your posts.

I don't really feel that we're much apart on political thinking, not really considering all elements.

I just feel that it's a tragedy for the UK that we can't just select the best, most proficient, most passionate, most sincere politicians from all parties to form one Government, and take the best, most sensible policies from all parties manifestos to form one.



I agree completely,there are plenty of them in all parties and if they had the courage to speak out against the party machinery and say what they feel and the real changes they would love to bring about,what a truly great day that would be for the whole of the UK.

I also believe that many policies should not be aprty political football,things like the EU and immigration, the NHS and Education even too,should be an across the board policy brought about in rational way that all parties endorse and ensure stays in place, no matter what party wins power.

For me, it is the hacking away at the previous govts. policies and the endless reforms and changes,often more often than not unnecessary,that causes the problems and so continuity of policy and conditions never gets the chance to flourish.

If I ever do go into politics,I would spend most of my time, trying to persuade more and more MPs and candidates to help bring about a better politics.
To try in some small way to create a concensus as to politics.
Clearing out hopefully the false, and in fact often unnecessarily created, divisions and work on the things that unite rather than divide.

[joeysteele]

you need more regulation and more scrutiny of nhs boards and the hospitals...you also need to seriously strengthen the powers of the ombudsmen and recruit more staff. the regulations themselves need to focus on the patients 100% and not the staff. the patients are what matters most. this message has been lost, hence why thousands have died from neglect at the hands of disgusting sub standard staff at our supposedly great british hospitals. this ALL happened under new labour. they should never ever be trusted again

there have never ever been diasters as big as that under any other government. worse still though labour actively sought to cover it all up. new labour didnt care about the lives lost, the stinking corruption, all they did was cover it up ignore it because they darent upset the nhs or nursing unions....votes and power meant more to them than lives. the uber liberal bbc barely even touched on these disgusting state of british hospitals and these monstrous scandals until years later and thousands more were dead. thousands actually died of thirst in our hopsitals, 25000 a year died from blood clots they picked up in british hospitals that were left undiagnosed, our hospitals were 70 times dirtier than scandinavian hospitals and mrsa was rife. new labour fiddled while the hospitals burned. im more than aware what maggie thatcher did to the uk and destroying manbufacturing. however new labour had ample time to overturn any of her policies and bring back the industrial strength and guess what they did nothing.

in 13 years they did what? destroyed our culture, sold us out to europe, created 1000s of new stupid laws, ruined our civil liberties, destroyed freedom of speech, destroyed families, created an entire generation of 10 million on welfare dependancy (attracting more easy long term voters for new labour) , deregulation of the banks and taking power from the bank of england, world record public and private debts, complete collapse of the housing market, failure to build social housing, illegal wars which saw over 1 million innocents killed, endless vanity projects costing tax payers 100s of millions like the dome, employing crooks in government, in bed with the tabloids , up to their eyeballs in spin bribes and backhanders, spindoctors running the cabinet, increased population of 8 million in less than 20 years due mainly to open door immigration policy with virtually no points system, unlike almost every other western country?....the list goes on and on..........end result....highest drug rates in europe, some of the highest violent crime per head in europe, virtual bankruptcy, teen pregnancies at all time high, enormous debts, 3 recessions, housing collapse etc etc the list of disasters goes on and on.........they achieved NOTHING

I have dealt with your NHS issues in a previous post however, I accept and understand and sympathise too that you have had very bad experiences with the NHS and the staff in it too,which you have outlined in posts in the past.
That should not be the case and so I understand your anger when things go wrong and are covered up or not dealt with.

However it is also a fact that for every one thing that goes wrong or is done wrong in the NHS, hundreds of things are done right are are right.

What I have to take you up on is the selling us out to Europe by Labour.
Not so.
The Conservative party,without any referendum, in 1973 took us into the Common Market of Europe.
They then ensured we moved closer and closer into Europe as it evolved especially in the early 80s when Tony Benn was considered a madman for opposing Europe and closer ties with same.

The biggest sell out to the EU was the Maastricht treaty,signed by John Major in the 90s and also had the ERM been a success rather than a massive failure when we went into that under same Conservative govt. then we would have had the Euro now too more than probably.

Despite the warnings from the Conservative opposition,of William Hague in 2001 and Michael Howard in 2005 as to us joining the Euro under Labour.
While Tony Blair would have possibly relished doing so, the then Chancellor Gordon Brown refused to support going into the Euro at all and no way were we then going to under Labour.

So if any party overall and in the main has sold the UK out to the EU and also never ever holding a referendum on any of its decisions as to the EU, well that is the Conservative party, not the Labour party.
Also had Labour won the 1983 election,then we likely would not still be in the EU now,it was the Conservative party that moved with the evolving of the EU right up to it leaving power in 1997.

[the truth]

I have dealt with your NHS issues in a previous post however, I accept and understand and sympathise too that you have had very bad experiences with the NHS and the staff in it too,which you have outlined in posts in the past.
That should not be the case and so I understand your anger when things go wrong and are covered up or not dealt with.

However it is also a fact that for every one thing that goes wrong or is done wrong in the NHS, hundreds of things are done right are are right.

What I have to take you up on is the selling us out to Europe by Labour.
Not so.
The Conservative party,without any referendum, in 1973 took us into the Common Market of Europe.
They then ensured we moved closer and closer into Europe as it evolved especially in the early 80s when Tony Benn was considered a madman for opposing Europe and closer ties with same.

The biggest sell out to the EU was the Maastricht treaty,signed by John Major in the 90s and also had the ERM been a success rather than a massive failure when we went into that under same Conservative govt. then we would have had the Euro now too more than probably.

Despite the warnings from the Conservative opposition,of William Hague in 2001 and Michael Howard in 2005 as to us joining the Euro under Labour.
While Tony Blair would have possibly relished doing so, the then Chancellor Gordon Brown refused to support going into the Euro at all and no way were we then going to under Labour.

So if any party overall and in the main has sold the UK out to the EU and also never ever holding a referendum on any of its decisions as to the EU, well that is the Conservative party, not the Labour party.
Also had Labour won the 1983 election,then we likely would not still be in the EU now,it was the Conservative party that moved with the evolving of the EU right up to it leaving power in 1997.

major was a poor and weak pm
blair however was a devious runt and brown proved no better. the signing of the 587 page EU constitution was the end of britain in all but name. a total disaster that must be torn up and will be but it will take 20 years and yet more countries going bankrupt first. this constituion was light years away from the maastricht treaty which of course was also a poor move and never debated properly and fully explained to jo public. thatchers govt was the devil , whereas blairs was the devil in sheeps clothing, at least we could see thatcher coming

as for the nhs. this is nothing to do with my own personalise experiences. this is the country as a whole. though my own experiences have on the whole been poor and the lies ive been told are endless. this is NOt a minority issue as you paint it, the majority of nhs staff are forced to be duplicitous and conceal truths and lie on an hourly basis. its not about care or saving lives anymore its about covering ones own back. id also go so far as to have breathalyser tests for staff. the number of workers who turn up at hospitals still drunk from the night before is staggering. again this wont make the bbc news for a decade. when we will have a public enquiry into it donkeys years too late , just like everything else in broken britain. not fit for purpose.

[kirklancaster]

This is completely untrue and I have no idea where you are getting this from tbh. It has been proved 100x over that the work capability assessment are unfit for purpose and are not weeding out the fraud, instead they are punishing genuine disabled people. They were unfit under labour (who I believe, incidentally brought in ATOS to begin with) and the current government made it even harder to pass the ridiculous test. Doctors are against it.

When people die days after being pronounced 'fit for work', when people in constant pain recieve '0 points' and are forced to go on JSA, people with the mental age of children are apparently fine top work...come on. You know this isnt right. There are literally thousands of stories about people who are disabled being told they are not by ATOS.

Disabled people are being royally screwed over. Also, the majority have had benefits decreased, not increased, with the introduction of PIP instead of DLA...

:clap1: I actually have to agree with you here Vicky.

Based upon my own personal knowledge, I will be controversial and state that around 50% of people claiming benefits are doing so fraudently, and that these scavengers need their benefits stopping as soon as possible and made to repay those that they have received (or imprisoned).

Unfortunately for the tax-payer, every government initiative to catch out these fraudsters and strip away their benefits is – as you so rightly say – hitting the wrong targets, and genuine people who need financial help are unjustly having their benefits stopped, whilst the fraudsters breeze through the process with benefits intact.

This WCA test is actually a reincarnation of ‘The All Work’ test introduced in 1994 by John Major’s Conservative Government, and then - just as now – this test proved farcical and impotent, failed to strip fraudsters of benefits, but succeeded in stopping the benefits of genuine claimants.

Genuine claimants are – for the most part – law abiding and passive, and usually confused by, and intimidated by ’officialdom’, whilst fraudulent claimants are usually ‘street-wide’, ‘active’, very, very, devious, and ‘know the ropes’ when dealing with officialdom. It follows, therefore, that ‘soft’ targets are always the easiest targets.

At the time, I personally helped 8 people I knew to appeal when they had their benefits stopped after being wrongly found capable of work as a result of this test. I filled in their forms for them and even wrote what amounted to lengthy and scathing critiques of the ‘All Work Test’, and I am pleased to say that all 8 had their appeals allowed and their benefits reinstated as a result.

Below is an actual excerpt from one such appeal:

Somewhere in the UK, lying in bed is a man who has been paralysed for 20 years. Only able to move his eyes, this man was once was the recipient of national sympathy, but is now the object of universal hatred and scorn.

Why? Because under the rulings of the government’s recently introduced ‘All Work Test', the man has now been exposed as a work-shy malingerer and scrounger who has been in receipt of two decades of benefits when he could have been working.

A government spokesman yesterday confirmed that 47 year old Arthur Scrimsdyke had his entitlement to benefits removed because there was a job available to him which he had refused. When pressed for further details, the spokesman said;

“Well, ’The Society of Ugly Neglected Fishwives’ in Grimsby is advertising for a man – any man - to wink at them for 40 hours a week. Damn good pay at £1.20 per hour and a bonus if both eyes are used to wink with.”

The spokesman added that the controversial new WCA test has seen other scroungers lose their benefits nationwide: “The government is very proud that the new test is working. Thousands of epileptics have been found work; some have accepted jobs in Chinese laundries – a jolly well cushy number as well, if you ask me – standing by huge vats of dirty clothes all day and only being thrown in once a seizure starts. All that bally threshing and flailing of limbs soon has the clothes clean.”

Sometimes sarcasm and ridicule are powerful weapons.

[Kizzy]

:clap1: I actually have to agree with you here Vicky.

Based upon my own personal knowledge, I will be controversial and state that around 50% of people claiming benefits are doing so fraudently


:laugh: Are you joking?

[Niall]

Based upon my own personal knowledge, I will be controversial and state that around 50% of people claiming benefits are doing so fraudently

I'm side-eyeing so hard I think my eyes are about to fall out the sides of my head

But yes go ahead lets blame the poor for the faults of this country. Such a spurious claim obviously ignores other places where money is lost but y'know, poor people. They're the real ****ers sending this country to the dogs aren't they? Not the rich bankers and corporate executives pillaging this nation for all its worth, huh?

[joeysteele]

Oh I have to disagree with the 50% figure, I could maybe stretch to,from my own experience of helping people on disabled benefits and my own gathering of knowledge as to the issue,4% to 5% as a maximum.

The problems are lying with the testing and assessing of the sick and disabled and the silly questions like can you out a pen in your top pocket, can you move a pint of milk from one place to another.
Ridiculously stupid questions like that,I child of just under 3 could do those things but certainly couldn't work.

I through the law firm I am with at present,and also my interests with certain welfare groups too, have been involved in part with appeals against losses of benefits,which the DWP said were wrongly being claimed.

The number of those appeals is rising ever upward and I have come across from my experience and others experiences too,hundreds of such appeals being made.
Hundreds being too the likely tip of the iceberg.

I also have yet to see an appeal not upheld by the court once it gets that far and the so called wrong payment of benefits, being fully restored.

It is this demonisation and wrong representation of the facts as to the disabled and sick that is adding to the massive stress they are already under with this govts.shocking welfare changes.
I guess it comes easy to demonise and attack the weakest in a society.
For me however, instead of attacking them, I'd prefer we were nurturing them and helping make sure they are being built up not brought down even more by joining in the pack attack on them.

[the truth]

Oh I have to disagree with the 50% figure, I could maybe stretch to,from my own experience of helping people on disabled benefits and my own gathering of knowledge as to the issue,4% to 5% as a maximum.

The problems are lying with the testing and assessing of the sick and disabled and the silly questions like can you out a pen in your top pocket, can you move a pint of milk from one place to another.
Ridiculously stupid questions like that,I child of just under 3 could do those things but certainly couldn't work.

I through the law firm I am with at present,and also my interests with certain welfare groups too, have been involved in part with appeals against losses of benefits,which the DWP said were wrongly being claimed.

The number of those appeals is rising ever upward and I have come across from my experience and others experiences too,hundreds of such appeals being made.
Hundreds being too the likely tip of the iceberg.

I also have yet to see an appeal not upheld by the court once it gets that far and the so called wrong payment of benefits, being fully restored.

It is this demonisation and wrong representation of the facts as to the disabled and sick that is adding to the massive stress they are already under with this govts.shocking welfare changes.
I guess it comes easy to demonise and attack the weakest in a society.
For me however, instead of attacking them, I'd prefer we were nurturing them and helping make sure they are being built up not brought down even more by joining in the pack attack on them.
rubbish. its the false claimants , the lazy , workless, demotivated fops who milk the benefits who are effectively stelaing money from the disabled, the sick and elderly and from the tax payers. these lazy bums have always got some pitiful excuse, well to hell with their excuses get the money off them and send them to work. then use the saved welfare benefits to pay the disabled and elderly more

[joeysteele]

rubbish. its the false claimants , the lazy , workless, demotivated fops who milk the benefits who are effectively stelaing money from the disabled, the sick and elderly and from the tax payers. these lazy bums have always got some pitiful excuse, well to hell with their excuses get the money off them and send them to work. then use the saved welfare benefits to pay the disabled and elderly more

I totally disagree,this is the rhetoric that is used to try to justify the persecution of those who are the weakest,allowing the demonisation of those on benefits to be totally exaggerrated as to how many are wrongly claiming them.

I said earlier, the only facts presented in TV programmes on these issues always say that the benefits believed to be being wrongly or fraudulently claimed amount to 0.8% of the total claimants.
Where is your evidence that is wrong, what figures have you got that say different.

You actually do the sick and disabled and most vulnerable a massive injustice in overstating the problem.
As to the welfare/benfit issues,the truth is little can or should be done as to cutting them becasue really the bulk of the spending on benefits is on pensions, that cannot be touched really.

I don't normally go into saying someone is talking rubbish as I try to take on board what others say even if I disagree with them, however from all I have got involved with these last few years as to the sick and disabled,I have been appalled at their treatment by this govt. as to their benefits.

One of us is likely talking rubbish certainly but it for sure I feel is not me and I am sorry to take that line.
However I will always look at supporting the sick and disabled,not follow like a sheep the media demonisation of them and add to the exaggerration of using them as scapegoats for the UKs ills.

[Kizzy]

I totally disagree,this is the rhetoric that is used to try to justify the persecution of those who are the weakest,allowing the demonisation of those on benefits to be totally exaggerrated as to how many are wrongly claiming them.

I said earlier, the only facts presented in TV programmes on these issues always say that the benefits believed to be being wrongly or fraudulently claimed amount ot 0.8% of the total claimants.
Where is your evidence that is wrong, what figures have you got that say different?

You actually do the sick and disabled and most vulnerable a massive injustice in overstating the problem.
As to the welfare/benfit issues,the truth is little can or should be done as to cutting them becasue really the bulk of the spending on benefits is on pensions, that cannot be touched really.

I don't normally go into saying someone is talking rubbish as I try to take on board what others say even if I disagree with them, however from all I have got involved with these last few years as to the sick and disabled,I have been appalled at their treatment by this govt. as to their benefits.

One of us is likely talking rubbish certainly but it for sure I feel is not me and I am sorry to take that line.
However I will always look at supporting the sick and disabled,not follow like a sheep the media demonisation of them and add to the exaggerration of using them as scapegoats for the UKs ills.

Yes I'd like to see these stats too.

[kirklancaster]

I'm side-eyeing so hard I think my eyes are about to fall out the sides of my head

But yes go ahead lets blame the poor for the faults of this country. Such a spurious claim obviously ignores other places where money is lost but y'know, poor people. They're the real ****ers sending this country to the dogs aren't they? Not the rich bankers and corporate executives pillaging this nation for all its worth, huh?

:shrug::shrug::shrug::joker:

Well, when you attend the doctor's to have your eyes put back into their orbits Niall, ask him to check your vision, your sensory perception, and your cognitive processes, because if you can read my post then misconstrue what I wrote to the extent that you conclude that my 'claim; ' is 'spurious' and that I am 'blaming the poor' in any way at all, there is something seriously wrong with you.

I am defending the poor and the needy, and condemning the fraudulent and greedy. And what is more; I know that my command of the English language is sufficient that only the prejudiced, politically blinkered can fail to understand what I am writing.

Your response is so, so, typical of Left Wing socialists, who are so very bitter and angry at the world because of their own personal issues – often subconscious and deeply buried – that they are in a perpetually defensive mode, coiled, tense, waiting to pounce aggressively and irrationally, on any one who they feel threatened by, or whose views they perceive, or wrongly perceive as not identically fitting in with their own skewed ideologies.

There is no fault in what I write, only in your perception, and you really need to stand back and try to approach matters with more rational detachment.

Passion is a worthy characteristic but without control it can become the blind hatred of extremism.

Irrationally destroying the whole of something because parts of the whole may be imperfect, without any insight of what to replace it with, is just anarchy.

And yet, this is exactly the Left Wing mentality; ‘Bosses are rich, Bosses are greedy, employees are poor. Business is just exploitation of the poor downtrodden workers – destroy Capitalism.

When I was an employer – albeit it a very modest one – I took out huge loans, re-mortgaged my home and worked 16 hour days for 7 days a week every week for years. I sacrificed time with my family and only took one holiday in 15 years. I never exploited anyone, and in total, 87 people – my family, and my employees and their families – were wholly reliant on me.

I was not unique – hundreds of thousands of SME’s are exactly the same, then there are the Alan Sugars, the Richard Bransons.

We need bosses. We need Capitalism.

Capitalism is an apple tree – everyone relies on its crop. If the way in which the apples are distributed is unfair, unjust, then chopping the tree down through blind anger and hatred is not the answer.

When I was a single but engaged young man and saving for a deposit and mortgage on my first home, I was employed at a large Rubber Manufacturing company, and I used to work all the overtime I could get including Saturdays and Sundays and regular ‘double shifts’. I worked on a red hot injection moulding press which made hundreds of rubber rings in each ‘pressing’. We were on a bonus scheme and I worked that hard that I actually regularly doubled my gross weekly wage.

When it came to net pay however, I actually took home far less than a really lazy quite obese guy on the next press who never even achieved his basic output targets, and never ever worked even one hour of overtime.

Why? He had six children and was married, whereas I was single.

Was it fair that I should ‘subsidise’ his children? No, it wasn't. Was it my fault that he did not exercise a degree of planning before breeding offspring he could not afford to sustain? No, it wasn't.

Did I want to ‘tear down the system? No, I didn't. Did I stop working in angry disgust and throw on the dole? No, I didn't.

Left Wing Extremist’s once again missed the point when they spewed irrational bile in protests against private healthcare schemes like B.U.P.A.

If people in a democracy choose to use their own money – whether rich or relatively poor – to invest in such healthcare, then why is it wrong?

There are no disadvantages to society or the State, only massive benefits.

It relieves the untenable pressure on our underfunded overloaded NHS, thereby enabling what Spartan budget it does have, to be better utilised, and does not cost the tax payer one penny.

It provides employment for Doctors and Nurses and thousands of auxiliary and administration staff who would still not be employed in the NHS even if no private healthcare schemes existed, because the gifted and highly qualified among them would migrate taking their skills with them, and the others would – in all probability – be on benefits, thereby costing the tax payer yet more money.

On immigration, Left Wingers allow their irrational extremism to cloud their judgement. The current ‘Open Border’ policy is an unmitigated disaster for this country.

Left Wingers are the most vociferous in their cries that our Benefits system; our schools, our NHS, Police, Ambulance, Fire services, and our highways are crumbling through lack of funding, in addition to the fact that we have a growing housing crisis.

Yet: whenever anyone even mentions the word ‘immigration’ – an irrefutable contributory factor to the overloading of the above services - Left Wing Extremists pounce on them and aggressively and unjustly denounce them as ‘Racist’.

The truth is that Left Wing Extremists are not only bigoted, but also seemingly unversed in even the most rudimentary of mathematics:

The more mouths there are to feed from a pie, then the more slices that pie has to be cut up into. The more slices a pie is cut up into, then the tinier each slice becomes. When the number of mouths keeps increasing and the pie dimensions remain static, then not every mouth can be fed because there is no pie left.

Yet; the less mouths that there are to feed from a pie – the larger a slice of pie there is for those who do feed from it. Simple really isn't it?

So can we then also understand; that the more people which flood into a tiny island of static area, then the more overcrowded that tiny island becomes?

Communism is great theoretically; “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” but history has taught us that it does not work.

So what happens when the ‘Public Purse’ is empty because expenditure continues to outweigh income despite the ever increasing burden on the poor British taxpayer via increased direct taxation and ever more devious indirect stealth taxes?

What happens when we cannot borrow any more money to bail out the cost of the governments continued ineptitude, seeing as how our National Debt already stands at over £1.5 trillion?

I have seen Left Wingers on here point out that; “The UK is not overcrowded, there are plenty of open spaces where people could live” – or some other equally as stupid comment.

What about the billions of pounds worth of infrastructure which is needed to urbanise those ‘open spaces’?

And where are these ‘open spaces’? – The Lake District? The Yorkshire Moors? The New Forest? Snowdonia?

There are economic and geographical reasons why towns and cities have evolved, and even if we had the funds to urbanise certain open space areas – which we don’t – sustaining communities there would be economically impossible.

I have also seen Left Wingers on here state how immigrants work and pay taxes as well as the indigenous British. Well yes – some of them do, and a lot of them don’t, and when the fiscal books are honestly balanced, the cost to this country of unfettered immigration is far, far, greater than any benefits.

And so far we have not covered the other negative impact of immigration – those irreversible changes to our own culture, religions, and traditions. It is also no trivial fact that the great majority of immigrants to this country are Muslim.

One final example of how Left Wing Extremist thinking is skewed and dangerous, is Grammar Schools.

The 11 plus examination was hard, and those pupils who passed it went on to Grammar Schools. This included kids from the most deprived and poorest of backgrounds - I know, because I was one.

The standards of discipline, and teaching in Grammar Schools was of the highest order, and the success rates of pupils gaining GCE’s were extremely high. Most pupils went onto university and graduated to become leaders in their fields.

Grammar schools had badges on uniforms, satchels, different ‘Houses’ to which the pupils were allocated to, and whose individual colours were reflected in the stripes of the school tie. The teachers and headmasters wore ‘caps and gowns’, and the school rugby fields and certain other areas were ‘out of bounds’ at break and dinner times.

Method and Order were the keywords. ‘Hard work breeds success’ was the sentiment.

Of course, the Left Wing Extremists at the time soon saw the 11 plus as ‘demeaning’ to less intelligent or clever kids and Grammar schools as ‘unacceptable examples of selective education’ and ‘entrenched educational elitism’.

Tony Crosland – an arrogant, moron of a lefty, and the Education Secretary in the 1964 Labour Government – vowed that; “If it’s the last thing I do, I’m going to destroy every fecking grammar school in England and Wales and Northern Ireland.”

And he did, because, although over a hundred did survive, their dynamics were forever adversely changed.

So let’s look at the facts; In accordance with Lefty Labour wishes, Grammar schools became Comprehensive Schools.

Out went uniforms which were deemed by the loonie Left to be elitist and unfair to poorer families who would struggle to fund such clothing.

Well, again from direct experience, let me tell you the truth.

My mother did struggle to buy my Grammar school uniform, but she did manage it by making sacrifices elsewhere, and once I had my uniform on - cap, satchel and all – this poverty stricken kid from the crumbling brick terrace streets was exactly the same as his posh schoolmates who were Doctor’s or Teacher’s sons from private semi’s and detached houses.

Just as a thick blanket of snow covers the most untidy gravel pit of a garden as equally as the most manicured of flower bordered striped lawns, uniforms were the great equaliser.

In place of uniforms came a ‘free dress’ code – the latest in ice blue jeans, leather jackets, winkle-picker shoes or Cuban heel boots. You name it the new kids who hadn’t passed the 11 plus, and the posh kids who had, wore them. But not the really poor kids like me. My mum couldn’t afford such ‘modern’ clothing, so I was truly shamed and embarrassed going to school in my shabby ‘civvies’ when most of the other kids were so ‘coolly’ attired.

So much for ‘elitist’ and ‘unfair to poorer kids’ – the effect of misconstrued Loonie Left thinking was the diametric opposite of their intent.

So what of educational standards?

Loonie Left ideology of ‘one school for all irrespective of academic ability’ was based on a presumption that the ‘brighter kids would pull the dimmer kids up – elevate them.

Of course, the opposite is true, because it is akin to throwing a few rotten apples into a barrel of healthy fruit in the belief that the good fruit will restore the bad. (FFS please let’s make it absolutely clear – even to blinkered Lefties – that I am not calling non-academic school kids ‘bad apples’, it is an analogy.)

And yes; general standards plummeted and as they did, so did educational standards.

My own Grammar school was always in the top 6 schools in the country, but as a Comprehensive it continued to plummet until – long after I had left – it was consistently in the bottom 5.

All a crying shame.

[joeysteele]

Yes I'd like to see these stats too.

In an official sense they don't exist Kizzy, the 0.8% was arrived at by an independent source who could only estimate that 0.8% of claims were either fraudulent or wrongly claimed.
This govt. knows that to be the case too but is happy to let the media fuel discord between citizen against citizen.
I am reminded of something a lady of near 80 told me last year, she said she had lived through loads of govts. but this one was the worst and most cruel she had ever come across.
For me it is a dangerous one too,as to its divide and conquor attitude as to the working classes and those who are most vulnerable too,trying to set one against the other

If fraud and wrong claiming of benefit was as high as some of the exaggerrated incredible figures have been stated on here, the vile Sun and Daily Mail would have their whole papers full of them, instead of having to near desperately scratch around for the odd one or two cases of same.

[Kizzy]

:shrug::shrug::shrug::joker:

Well, when you attend the doctor's to have your eyes put back into their orbits Niall, ask him to check your vision, your sensory perception, and your cognitive processes, because if you can read my post then misconstrue what I wrote to the extent that you conclude that my 'claim; ' is 'spurious' and that I am 'blaming the poor' in any way at all, there is something seriously wrong with you.

I am defending the poor and the needy, and condemning the fraudulent and greedy. And what is more; I know that my command of the English language is sufficient that only the prejudiced, politically blinkered can fail to understand what I am writing.

Your response is so, so, typical of Left Wing socialists, who are so very bitter and angry at the world because of their own personal issues – often subconscious and deeply buried – that they are in a perpetually defensive mode, coiled, tense, waiting to pounce aggressively and irrationally, on any one who they feel threatened by, or whose views they perceive, or wrongly perceive as not identically fitting in with their own skewed ideologies.

There is no fault in what I write, only in your perception, and you really need to stand back and try to approach matters with more rational detachment.

Passion is a worthy characteristic but without control it can become the blind hatred of extremism.

Irrationally destroying the whole of something because parts of the whole may be imperfect, without any insight of what to replace it with, is just anarchy.

And yet, this is exactly the Left Wing mentality; ‘Bosses are rich, Bosses are greedy, employees are poor. Business is just exploitation of the poor downtrodden workers – destroy Capitalism.

When I was an employer – albeit it a very modest one – I took out huge loans, re-mortgaged my home and worked 16 hour days for 7 days a week every week for years. I sacrificed time with my family and only took one holiday in 15 years. I never exploited anyone, and in total, 87 people – my family, and my employees and their families – were wholly reliant on me.

I was not unique – hundreds of thousands of SME’s are exactly the same, then there are the Alan Sugars, the Richard Bransons.

We need bosses. We need Capitalism.

Capitalism is an apple tree – everyone relies on its crop. If the way in which the apples are distributed is unfair, unjust, then chopping the tree down through blind anger and hatred is not the answer.

When I was a single but engaged young man and saving for a deposit and mortgage on my first home, I was employed at a large Rubber Manufacturing company, and I used to work all the overtime I could get including Saturdays and Sundays and regular ‘double shifts’. I worked on a red hot injection moulding press which made hundreds of rubber rings in each ‘pressing’. We were on a bonus scheme and I worked that hard that I actually regularly doubled my gross weekly wage.

When it came to net pay however, I actually took home far less than a really lazy quite obese guy on the next press who never even achieved his basic output targets, and never ever worked even one hour of overtime.

Why? He had six children and was married, whereas I was single.

Was it fair that I should ‘subsidise’ his children? No, it wasn't. Was it my fault that he did not exercise a degree of planning before breeding offspring he could not afford to sustain? No, it wasn't.

Did I want to ‘tear down the system? No, I didn't. Did I stop working in angry disgust and throw on the dole? No, I didn't.

Left Wing Extremist’s once again missed the point when they spewed irrational bile in protests against private healthcare schemes like B.U.P.A.

If people in a democracy choose to use their own money – whether rich or relatively poor – to invest in such healthcare, then why is it wrong?

There are no disadvantages to society or the State, only massive benefits.

It relieves the untenable pressure on our underfunded overloaded NHS, thereby enabling what Spartan budget it does have, to be better utilised, and does not cost the tax payer one penny.

It provides employment for Doctors and Nurses and thousands of auxiliary and administration staff who would still not be employed in the NHS even if no private healthcare schemes existed, because the gifted and highly qualified among them would migrate taking their skills with them, and the others would – in all probability – be on benefits, thereby costing the tax payer yet more money.

On immigration, Left Wingers allow their irrational extremism to cloud their judgement. The current ‘Open Border’ policy is an unmitigated disaster for this country.

Left Wingers are the most vociferous in their cries that our Benefits system; our schools, our NHS, Police, Ambulance, Fire services, and our highways are crumbling through lack of funding, in addition to the fact that we have a growing housing crisis.

Yet: whenever anyone even mentions the word ‘immigration’ – an irrefutable contributory factor to the overloading of the above services - Left Wing Extremists pounce on them and aggressively and unjustly denounce them as ‘Racist’.

The truth is that Left Wing Extremists are not only bigoted, but also seemingly unversed in even the most rudimentary of mathematics:

The more mouths there are to feed from a pie, then the more slices that pie has to be cut up into. The more slices a pie is cut up into, then the tinier each slice becomes. When the number of mouths keeps increasing and the pie dimensions remain static, then not every mouth can be fed because there is no pie left.

Yet; the less mouths that there are to feed from a pie – the larger a slice of pie there is for those who do feed from it. Simple really isn't it?

So can we then also understand; that the more people which flood into a tiny island of static area, then the more overcrowded that tiny island becomes?

Communism is great theoretically; “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” but history has taught us that it does not work.

So what happens when the ‘Public Purse’ is empty because expenditure continues to outweigh income despite the ever increasing burden on the poor British taxpayer via increased direct taxation and ever more devious indirect stealth taxes?

What happens when we cannot borrow any more money to bail out the cost of the governments continued ineptitude, seeing as how our National Debt already stands at over £1.5 trillion?

I have seen Left Wingers on here point out that; “The UK is not overcrowded, there are plenty of open spaces where people could live” – or some other equally as stupid comment.

What about the billions of pounds worth of infrastructure which is needed to urbanise those ‘open spaces’?

And where are these ‘open spaces’? – The Lake District? The Yorkshire Moors? The New Forest? Snowdonia?

There are economic and geographical reasons why towns and cities have evolved, and even if we had the funds to urbanise certain open space areas – which we don’t – sustaining communities there would be economically impossible.

I have also seen Left Wingers on here state how immigrants work and pay taxes as well as the indigenous British. Well yes – some of them do, and a lot of them don’t, and when the fiscal books are honestly balanced, the cost to this country of unfettered immigration is far, far, greater than any benefits.

And so far we have not covered the other negative impact of immigration – those irreversible changes to our own culture, religions, and traditions. It is also no trivial fact that the great majority of immigrants to this country are Muslim.

One final example of how Left Wing Extremist thinking is skewed and dangerous, is Grammar Schools.

The 11 plus examination was hard, and those pupils who passed it went on to Grammar Schools. This included kids from the most deprived and poorest of backgrounds - I know, because I was one.

The standards of discipline, and teaching in Grammar Schools was of the highest order, and the success rates of pupils gaining GCE’s were extremely high. Most pupils went onto university and graduated to become leaders in their fields.

Grammar schools had badges on uniforms, satchels, different ‘Houses’ to which the pupils were allocated to, and whose individual colours were reflected in the stripes of the school tie. The teachers and headmasters wore ‘caps and gowns’, and the school rugby fields and certain other areas were ‘out of bounds’ at break and dinner times.

Method and Order were the keywords. ‘Hard work breeds success’ was the sentiment.

Of course, the Left Wing Extremists at the time soon saw the 11 plus as ‘demeaning’ to less intelligent or clever kids and Grammar schools as ‘unacceptable examples of selective education’ and ‘entrenched educational elitism’.

Tony Crosland – an arrogant, moron of a lefty, and the Education Secretary in the 1964 Labour Government – vowed that; “If it’s the last thing I do, I’m going to destroy every fecking grammar school in England and Wales and Northern Ireland.”

And he did, because, although over a hundred did survive, their dynamics were forever adversely changed.

So let’s look at the facts; In accordance with Lefty Labour wishes, Grammar schools became Comprehensive Schools.

Out went uniforms which were deemed by the loonie Left to be elitist and unfair to poorer families who would struggle to fund such clothing.

Well, again from direct experience, let me tell you the truth.

My mother did struggle to buy my Grammar school uniform, but she did manage it by making sacrifices elsewhere, and once I had my uniform on - cap, satchel and all – this poverty stricken kid from the crumbling brick terrace streets was exactly the same as his posh schoolmates who were Doctor’s or Teacher’s sons from private semi’s and detached houses.

Just as a thick blanket of snow covers the most untidy gravel pit of a gardens as equally as the most manicured of flower bordered striped lawns, uniforms were the great equaliser.

In place of uniforms came a ‘free dress’ code – the latest in ice blue jeans, leather jackets, winkle-picker shoes or Cuban heel boots. You name it the new kids who hadn’t passed the 11 plus, and the posh kids who had, wore them. But not the really poor kids like me. My mum couldn’t afford such ‘modern’ clothing, so I was truly shamed and embarrassed going to school in my shabby ‘civvies’ when most of the other kids were so ‘coolly’ attired.

So much for ‘elitist’ and ‘unfair to poorer kids’ – the effect of misconstrued Loonie Left thinking was the diametric opposite of their intent.

So what of educational standards?

Loonie Left ideology of ‘one school for all irrespective of academic ability’ was based on a presumption that the ‘brighter kids would pull the dimmer kids up – elevate them.

Of course, the opposite is true, because it is akin to throwing a few rotten apples into a barrel of healthy fruit in the belief that the good fruit will restore the bad. (FFS please let’s make it absolutely clear – even to blinkered Lefties – that I am not calling non-academic school kids ‘bad apples’, it is an analogy.)

And yes; general standards plummeted and as they did, so did educational standards.

My own Grammar school was always in the top 6 schools in the country, but as a Comprehensive it continued to plummet until – long after I had left – it was consistently in the bottom 5.

All a crying shame.

Why is anyone with an opinion that challenges yours a loonie?

[kirklancaster]

Why is anyone with an opinion that challenges yours a loonie?

For the same reason that anyone who posts opinions which are contrary to yours are immediately challenged by you as wrong. No matter if those opinions are factually based and yours is mere opinion.

[Kizzy]

For the same reason that anyone who posts opinions which are contrary to yours are immediately challenged by you as wrong. No matter if those opinions are factually based and yours is mere opinion.

yours is all personal view, it's not based on stats just your experiences though isn't it?
We all have different experiences to draw on to form an opinion.

Of course that's going to create counter debate on most topics.

[joeysteele]

Why is anyone with an opinion that challenges yours a loonie?

Tony Benn was branded a loony leftie too for wanting to split from the EU,this is actually now the thinking of what is termed the 'right' of those in the political spectrum, re the Conservative party and UKIP.
Well what does that make them now then.

Loonie left and other terms are all that is left when a decent argument is lost and it is only time for insults left to be flung around at those with differing views.

It is the dafter and more sad thing about politics in the UK,that anyone should be branded by anyone or organisation as to being a 'loony' of any sort just for their opinions.
I find the term loony left grossly offensive,I get it sometimes from those I know who disagree with my change of political leanings.
Off here, they get told and are left in no uncertain terms what I think of them too.

However, Kizzy, if it is that caring for a well supported NHS, that wanting to help,support and see in place protection and security for the most vulnerable, sick and disabled.
To see real jobs, not artificial low paid ones and people earning a living wage.
If that is to be deemed as being a loony from the left, well hey,I am happy to be standing up and be counted with that lot.
Far,far better,in my view, than supporting persecution, discrimination, heartlessness and injustice against such people and issues.

[Kizzy]

Tony Benn was branded a loony leftie too for wanting to split from the EU,this is actually now the thinking of what is termed the 'right' of those in the political spectrum, re the Conservative party and UKIP.
Well what does that make them now then.

Loonie left and other terms are all that is left when a decent argument is lost and it is only time for insults to left to be flung around at those with differing views.

It is the dafter and more sad thing about politics in the UK,that anyone should be branded by anyone or organisation as to being a 'loony' of any sort just for their opinions.
I find the term loony left grossly offensive,I get it sometimes from those I know who disagree with my change of political leanings.
Off here, they get told and are left in no uncertain terms what I think of them too.

However, Kizzy, if it is that caring for a well supported NHS, that wanting to help,support and see in place protection and security for the most vulnerable, sick and disabled.
To see real jobs, not artificial low paid ones and people earning a living wage.
If that is to be deemed as being a loony from the left, well hey,I am happy to be standing up and be counted with that lot.
Far,far better,in my view, than supporting persecution, discrimination, heartlessness and injustice against such people and issues.

You're correct as ever Joey, I wish everyone had your clarity of vision.
I'm proud too, why the 'I'm alright jack' UKIP attitude is accepted I don't know... is the destruction of society, community and the infrastructure of the UK as it stands workable?
I don't think so, I also don't believe that those who support UKIP understand just how dangerous the policies proposed could become if they were to gain power n the future.

[kirklancaster]

Tony Benn was branded a loony leftie too for wanting to split from the EU,this is actually now the thinking of what is termed the 'right' of those in the political spectrum, re the Conservative party and UKIP.
Well what does that make them now then.

Loonie left and other terms are all that is left when a decent argument is lost and it is only time for insults left to be flung around at those with differing views.

It is the dafter and more sad thing about politics in the UK,that anyone should be branded by anyone or organisation as to being a 'loony' of any sort just for their opinions.
I find the term loony left grossly offensive,I get it sometimes from those I know who disagree with my change of political leanings.
Off here, they get told and are left in no uncertain terms what I think of them too.

However, Kizzy, if it is that caring for a well supported NHS, that wanting to help,support and see in place protection and security for the most vulnerable, sick and disabled.
To see real jobs, not artificial low paid ones and people earning a living wage.
If that is to be deemed as being a loony from the left, well hey,I am happy to be standing up and be counted with that lot.
Far,far better,in my view, than supporting persecution, discrimination, heartlessness and injustice against such people and issues.

To me Joey - you are a socialist not a Left Wing Extremist or 'Loonie Lefty'.

You are passionate in your political beliefs without ever losing your moderation. You do not 'pounce' unjustly on any post which mentions any point contrary to yours, and you do not denounce such posts in their entirety - merely counter the points you do not agree with.

Nor were you around during the periods my posts referred to when there was a definite and powerful element within the the then Labour party, whose ideologies and policies were indeed 'Looney' and damaging to this country.

Tony Benn is one of my political heroes because of his honesty, his passion, and his integrity - all rare qualities in any politician, and yes, he may have been referred to as 'looney left' by some, but not by me, who always believed his anti-Europe stance was correct - and so it has proved to be.

As for insults and offensiveness Joey - no one on here has been subjected to as much, and this is compounded by the fact that most Left Wing socialists on here repeatedly do not read or understand my posts and consequently end up misquoting those posts, and criticising 'imagined' text in those posts which simply is not there.

I will answer the question of percentages in another post, but for now, perhaps you can explain how condemning fraudulent claimants - in any number - is picking on the poor, blaming the poor or 'caning' the sick and disabled?

Fraudulent claimants exist - irrespective of percentages. Fraudulent claimants are not sick so can work and do not qualify or deserve sickness or incapacity benefits. The fraudulent claimants I am referring to are not poor because their benefits are additional to their covert incomes and they claim through greed not need.

The more fraudulent claims there are which are stopped, then the more money there is to support the genuinely ill and needy.

How is such a sentiment misconstrued by so many socialists on here? How am I attacking the poor by condemning such fraudsters?

Why am I constantly having to defend myself against non-existent 'crimes' which only exist in the bigoted minds of those who either cannot read properly or who have not the mental capacity to understand what they have read?

It is very tiring and tedious, and it is the same with the NHS.

The socialists on here seem to arrogantly presume that they - and only they - are guardians of the NHS, the only one's who want to see a better, more efficient NHS, where funding is not a problem, patient care is excelled and beds can be found for everyone in need of them.

Well I have news for them - they are not the only ones.

Nowhere in any of my posts have I suggested, hinted, or stated any desire to see the end of the NHS, and it is utterly dishonest for anyone to state otherwise.

If I perceive unfettered immigration and fraudulent claimants to be real factors in the sociopolitical decline in this country, then I have a right to say so without what I say being dishonestly misconstrued as racism or as attacks on the poor and vulnerable of this country.

I am neither Extreme Right or Extreme Left in my politics, but I am as patriotic to this country and care about its people as much - if not more - than those so wrongfully attacking me for my views.

Perhaps those on here who are Labour supporters and less moderate than you in their conduct, should cease being offensive to others by constantly accusing them without foundation, if they do not want to be offended by being labelled 'Loonie Lefties' by return, because factually; by their self-proclaimed politics they are 'Left', and as their continual trait of misquoting and criticising what is not there to be criticised is not the actions of any sane, rational person, then the term 'Loonie Lefty' is perhaps apt.

[Kizzy]

To me Joey - you are a socialist not a Left Wing Extremist or 'Loonie Lefty'.

You are passionate in your political beliefs without ever losing your moderation. You do not 'pounce' unjustly on any post which mentions any point contrary to yours, and you do not denounce such posts in their entirety - merely counter the points you do not agree with.

Nor were you around during the periods my posts referred to when there was a definite and powerful element within the the then Labour party, whose ideologies and policies were indeed 'Looney' and damaging to this country.

Tony Benn is one of my political heroes because of his honesty, his passion, and his integrity - all rare qualities in any politician, and yes, he may have been referred to as 'looney left' by some, but not by me, who always believed his anti-Europe stance was correct - and so it has proved to be.

As for insults and offensiveness Joey - no one on here has been subjected to as much, and this is compounded by the fact that most Left Wing socialists on here repeatedly do not read or understand my posts and consequently end up misquoting those posts, and criticising 'imagined' text in those posts which simply is not there.

I will answer the question of percentages in another post, but for now, perhaps you can explain how condemning fraudulent claimants - in any number - is picking on the poor, blaming the poor or 'caning' the sick and disabled?

Fraudulent claimants exist - irrespective of percentages. Fraudulent claimants are not sick so can work and do not qualify or deserve sickness or incapacity benefits. The fraudulent claimants I am referring to are not poor because their benefits are additional to their covert incomes and they claim through greed not need.

The more fraudulent claims there are which are stopped, then the more money there is to support the genuinely ill and needy.

How is such a sentiment misconstrued by so many socialists on here? How am I attacking the poor by condemning such fraudsters?

Why am I constantly having to defend myself against non-existent 'crimes' which only exist in the bigoted minds of those who either cannot read properly or who have not the mental capacity to understand what they have read?

It is very tiring and tedious, and it is the same with the NHS.

The socialists on here seem to arrogantly presume that they - and only they - are guardians of the NHS, the only one's who want to see a better, more efficient NHS, where funding is not a problem, patient care is excelled and beds can be found for everyone in need of them.

Well I have news for them - they are not the only ones.

Nowhere in any of my posts have I suggested, hinted, or stated any desire to see the end of the NHS, and it is utterly dishonest for anyone to state otherwise.

If I perceive unfettered immigration and fraudulent claimants to be real factors in the sociopolitical decline in this country, then I have a right to say so without what I say being dishonestly misconstrued as racism or as attacks on the poor and vulnerable of this country.

I am neither Extreme Right or Extreme Left in my politics, but I am as patriotic to this country and care about its people as much - if not more - than those so wrongfully attacking me for my views.

Perhaps those on here who are Labour supporters and less moderate than you in their conduct, should cease being offensive to others by constantly accusing them without foundation, if they do not want to be offended by being labelled 'Loonie Lefties' by return, because factually; by their self-proclaimed politics they are 'Left', and as their continual trait of misquoting and criticising what is not there to be criticised is not the actions of any sane, rational person, then the term 'Loonie Lefty' is perhaps apt.

Neither is anyone who has contributed to this thread which is why your comments were so unnecessary.

Basically you stand by your insults seemingly and anyone who dare challenge you on any issue deserve them.

[kirklancaster]

You're correct as ever Joey, I wish everyone had your clarity of vision.
I'm proud too, why the 'I'm alright jack' UKIP attitude is accepted I don't know... is the destruction of society, community and the infrastructure of the UK as it stands workable?
I don't think so, I also don't believe that those who support UKIP understand just how dangerous the policies proposed could become if they were to gain power n the future.

We understand only too well how society, community and infrastructure in this country is already being tangibly destroyed by unfettered immigration because of the existing suicidal 'Open Door' policy.

We understand the possible risk that UKIP may turn into a nightmare with dangerous policies, but we also understand the reality - not risk, but reality - of just how dangerous the policies of the existing government already are, as we understand the non-policies of the opposition party, who cannot be trusted anyway due to historical fact.

If Farage ever did come to power, then his tenure of No.10 would be confined to just 4 years if he did not deliver, and that period is not long enough to ruin this country any more than the other parties have ruined it over the past 50 years or so. Neither is it long enough to see the fruition of any positive policy implementations either.

[joeysteele]

To me Joey - you are a socialist not a Left Wing Extremist or 'Loonie Lefty'.

You are passionate in your political beliefs without ever losing your moderation. You do not 'pounce' unjustly on any post which mentions any point contrary to yours, and you do not denounce such posts in their entirety - merely counter the points you do not agree with.

Nor were you around during the periods my posts referred to when there was a definite and powerful element within the the then Labour party, whose ideologies and policies were indeed 'Looney' and damaging to this country.

Tony Benn is one of my political heroes because of his honesty, his passion, and his integrity - all rare qualities in any politician, and yes, he may have been referred to as 'looney left' by some, but not by me, who always believed his anti-Europe stance was correct - and so it has proved to be.

As for insults and offensiveness Joey - no one on here has been subjected to as much, and this is compounded by the fact that most Left Wing socialists on here repeatedly do not read or understand my posts and consequently end up misquoting those posts, and criticising 'imagined' text in those posts which simply is not there.

I will answer the question of percentages in another post, but for now, perhaps you can explain how condemning fraudulent claimants - in any number - is picking on the poor, blaming the poor or 'caning' the sick and disabled?

Fraudulent claimants exist - irrespective of percentages. Fraudulent claimants are not sick so can work and do not qualify or deserve sickness or incapacity benefits. The fraudulent claimants I am referring to are not poor because their benefits are additional to their covert incomes and they claim through greed not need.

The more fraudulent claims there are which are stopped, then the more money there is to support the genuinely ill and needy.

How is such a sentiment misconstrued by so many socialists on here? How am I attacking the poor by condemning such fraudsters?

Why am I constantly having to defend myself against non-existent 'crimes' which only exist in the bigoted minds of those who either cannot read properly or who have not the mental capacity to understand what they have read?

It is very tiring and tedious, and it is the same with the NHS.

The socialists on here seem to arrogantly presume that they - and only they - are guardians of the NHS, the only one's who want to see a better, more efficient NHS, where funding is not a problem, patient care is excelled and beds can be found for everyone in need of them.

Well I have news for them - they are not the only ones.

Nowhere in any of my posts have I suggested, hinted, or stated any desire to see the end of the NHS, and it is utterly dishonest for anyone to state otherwise.

If I perceive unfettered immigration and fraudulent claimants to be real factors in the sociopolitical decline in this country, then I have a right to say so without what I say being dishonestly misconstrued as racism or as attacks on the poor and vulnerable of this country.

I am neither Extreme Right or Extreme Left in my politics, but I am as patriotic to this country and care about its people as much - if not more - than those so wrongfully attacking me for my views.

Perhaps those on here who are Labour supporters and less moderate than you in their conduct, should cease being offensive to others by constantly accusing them without foundation, if they do not want to be offended by being labelled 'Loonie Lefties' by return, because factually; by their self-proclaimed politics they are 'Left', and as their continual trait of misquoting and criticising what is not there to be criticised is not the actions of any sane, rational person, then the term 'Loonie Lefty' is perhaps apt.

Well I dislike intensely the right, left and centre nonsense of politics, so I would never even loosely use a term of loony right or daft centrists so object to people like me being branded loony lefties because we now support the Labour party.

I see no reason for that as part of reasoned debate and can say that because I don't do it.

I think this right,left and centre nonsense is a blight on sensisble politics, all it is really are different views and different means to reach the same destination of all being good for the UK as a whole.

Capitalism was mentioned above as in that we need it, we have had a capitalist society for ages.
Between 1979 and 1997 we had a whole record 18 years unbroken of a capitalist orientated govt.
Things were always going wrong and big problems were left at the end of that time in 1997, particularly as to the NHS which I have said repeatedly was on its knees in 1997 after 18 years of capitalist govt.

If they couldn't get it right in that time with the majorities they had, then they never will.

I actually feel now that capitalism has failed and stiifled the UKs strengths and success so I prefer the mix,although I would admit, I now would love to see far more of socialist policies of state running of some industries,such as energy and water and rail,despite the problems of the past with that.

Furthermore, I have no problem at all with the condemnation of people claiming benefits wrongly and/or fraudulently,I support any measures that are reasonable to catch them that do not have a knock on effect to cause greater stress to those doing things correctly.

What I do have an issue with is the massively over inflated and exaggerated figures as to percentages that people throw out as a fact, without knowing so beyond all doubt,of how many are claiming wrongly or fraudulently.

The figure revealed on a recent Channel 4 programme devoted to benefits last year,stated that independent investigation found that only 0.8% of benefit claims were by fraud or claimed wrongly.
That leaves 99.2% seemingly claiming correctly, so where do half the claimants or therefore 50% or these other inflated endless numbers, who it is said are claiming fraudulently come from, and from what official source.
That is what I object to, this following of the biased media on this subject,who find one case and present it as the norm of benefit claimants.

Then people start to believe that is the case but I have dived in there to help those struggling, with endless new forms, the new changes,the alterations to payment dates and times,the appeals against the unjustified loss of some benefits for a time, and therefore, seeing firsthand,have found that in fact, the real case is more people are actually unlikely to be getting all the benefits they are really entitled to,rather than most claiming fraudulently.

Funny how few who go on about benefit fraud,rarely or never say those not getting the benefits they should be, (and the govt. knows they should be because some funds in the benefits pot are left unclaimed),should be looked for and made sure they do get them.
All the emphasis is,in my view wrongly, on those in the projected 0.8% who are deemed to be claiming wrongly.

[joeysteele]

You're correct as ever Joey, I wish everyone had your clarity of vision.
I'm proud too, why the 'I'm alright jack' UKIP attitude is accepted I don't know... is the destruction of society, community and the infrastructure of the UK as it stands workable?
I don't think so, I also don't believe that those who support UKIP understand just how dangerous the policies proposed could become if they were to gain power n the future.

I have enough faith in the electorate of this Country and particularly the young that UKIP will never be a force of govt.
I also really believe a govt. Conservative led that involved in any way UKIP could destrioy the Conservative party totally.

I really believe no matter the result of the 2015 election, the aim by all prties will be to ensure UKIP are sidelined and have not the slightest of influence.

I agree with you, UKIP's policies are dangerous,because they wrap their policies in pretty wrapping paper but never really reveal what is inside the package in full detail.

[GiRTh]

I have enough faith in the electorate of this Country and particularly the young that UKIP will never be a force of govt.
I also really believe a govt. Conservative led that involved in any way UKIP could destrioy the Conservative party totally.

I really believe no matter the result of the 2015 election, the aim by all prties will be to ensure UKIP are sidelined and have not the slightest of influence.

I agree with you, UKIP's policies are dangerous,because they wrap their policies in pretty wrapping paper but never really reveal what is inside the package in full detail.:clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I have enough faith in the electorate of this Country and particularly the young that UKIP will never be a force of govt.
I also really believe a govt. Conservative led that involved in any way UKIP could destrioy the Conservative party totally.

I really believe no matter the result of the 2015 election, the aim by all prties will be to ensure UKIP are sidelined and have not the slightest of influence.

I agree with you, UKIP's policies are dangerous,because they wrap their policies in pretty wrapping paper but never really reveal what is inside the package in full detail.

then you have no idea of the DM generation

idealism is essentially bankrupt

[Kizzy]

then you have no idea of the DM generation

idealism is essentially bankrupt

I'm hoping the youth of today aren't as led by the nose by the DM as the middle aged middle English seem to be.

[the truth]

I'm hoping the youth of today aren't as led by the nose by the DM as the middle aged middle English seem to be.

better than that lead by dangerous populist narcisistic idiots like your hero russell lets not bother voing brand. pathetic spineless fool

[the truth]

then you have no idea of the DM generation

idealism is essentially bankrupt

at least the daily mail prints the truth, the socialists just cover everything up

[Kizzy]

better than that lead by dangerous populist narcisistic idiots like your hero russell lets not bother voing brand. pathetic spineless fool

'My' hero?...
Is he my hero?

[Kizzy]

at least the daily mail prints the truth, the socialists just cover everything up

Such as... what are the right wing honest Johns at the mail uncovering that the left leaning media is hiding?

[joeysteele]

Such as... what are the right wing honest Johns at the mail uncovering that the left leaning media is hiding?

Gosh Kizzy :joker:,I have heard some odd things in my only 22 years of life but the Daily Mail telling the truth at any time, really is astounding.

It is only very marginally better than the vile Sun for printing pure invention as news.

I have heard it all now.:conf:

[the truth]

yours is all personal view, it's not based on stats just your experiences though isn't it?
We all have different experiences to draw on to form an opinion.

Of course that's going to create counter debate on most topics.

no its based on stats, 3600 new european laws, 8 million population increase, etc etc your opinions arent based on anything other an irrational hatred of nigel farage which you cant explain or justify especially as youve been exposed on here as a poster who has done no research.

[the truth]

'My' hero?...
Is he my hero?

as always you dont even know your own mind lol

[joeysteele]

'My' hero?...
Is he my hero?

I cannot recall you ever saying or indicating he was Kizzy.
I really,really admire your patience but once insults fly, take on board that those throwing the insults are losing the argument really.

[Kizzy]

I think there has for a long time been a collaboration between the tories and UKIP, they are looking to be the next coalition that's why their MPs are interchangable.

Called it.....

'The Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, has declared that he will try to work with David Cameron if possible to block a Labour government supported by the Scottish National party. These are Farage’s strongest comments yet signalling that he wants to prop up a Conservative administration in exchange for an immediate vote on the EU and higher defence spending.

With just 23 days to go before voters go to the polls, the minor parties are now being more explicit about which others they might work with and what their conditions might be.'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/15/farage-ukip-cameron-conservatives-block-labour-snp-coalition

[Crimson Dynamo]

cameron and farage coalition

:flutter:

[MTVN]

No more a collaboration than Labour and the SNP/Plaid/Greens really though

[Kizzy]

I don't get what you mean MTVN sorry.

[MTVN]

I don't get what you mean MTVN sorry.

Well you said there will have been a collaboration between the Tories and Ukip for a long time but this doesn't prove that, no more than the comments of the SNP/Plaid/Green prove that Labour have been in a collaboration with those three for a long time

The Conservatives best chance of being back in government remains in renewing the Lib Dem coalition and hoping they both do better than expected with enough seats to form a majority. The better Ukip do the less chance there will be of that happening and I can't see a Tory-Lib Dem-Ukip deal working really

[Vicky.]

Well you said there will have been a collaboration between the Tories and Ukip for a long time but this doesn't prove that, no more than the comments of the SNP/Plaid/Green prove that Labour have been in a collaboration with those three for a long time

The Conservatives best chance of being back in government remains in renewing the Lib Dem coalition and hoping they both do better than expected with enough seats to form a majority. The better Ukip do the less chance there will be of that happening and I can't see a Tory-Lib Dem-Ukip deal working really

Jesus, hasnt clegg already screwed the lib dems enough, if he sticks for a second term his party will be completely dead in the water D:

[the truth]

farage is going to win millions of votes....trust me

[joeysteele]

I don't think anyone has ever had much doubt that UKIP would do a deal with the Conservatives.

Nigel Farage I think genuinely expected Ed Miliband to also promise a referendum,which would have opened other doors for UKIP with Labour, Ed Miliband however has stayed true to his stance on the EU and doesn't want uncertainty for a number of years as to a referendum,which could affect businesses and investment.

So really, Nigel Farage only has Cameron,who I do also really believe that Farage actually trusts less than Miliband,to get any chance of a referendum.
So of course UKIP would do a deal with the Conservatives,however were Cameron to do a deal with UKIP,then he could find he splits the Conservative party even more.
There are Conservative MPs who want nothing whatsoever to do with UKIP and I feel sure some would not support any arrangement with UKIP and Nigel Farage.

Farage is entitled to his view on Labour and the SNP,by the same token I hope the SNP can by supporting Labour in a hung parliament bring about the exclusion of a Conservative govt; let alone one supported by UKIP.

I still don't think it will arise however,I still see the Lib Dems winning at least 17 seats,I don't see UKIP getting more than 5 really.
The Lib Dems for sure could never support a govt; that had the support too of UKIP, so it's a hard one for Nigel Farage.

Also with the prediction still at this time that Labour and the Conservatives could have around 280 seats each and the SNP something like 47 to 50,then in all fact, neither the Conservatives or Labour in that scenario could govern without the SNP on board in some way.

[Kizzy]

Well you said there will have been a collaboration between the Tories and Ukip for a long time but this doesn't prove that, no more than the comments of the SNP/Plaid/Green prove that Labour have been in a collaboration with those three for a long time

The Conservatives best chance of being back in government remains in renewing the Lib Dem coalition and hoping they both do better than expected with enough seats to form a majority. The better Ukip do the less chance there will be of that happening and I can't see a Tory-Lib Dem-Ukip deal working really

It doesn't prove anything no but as UKIP policies on many things as well as their MPs are eerily similar if not a little further right than the conservatives I feel this whole issue has been orchestrated to lead perfectly to this moment...
Over the last year or so the media have thrust Farage and UKIP into our morning paper and evening news at every given opportunity, every faux pas was excused, glossed over or laughed off, he was given accolades he didn't deserve (man of the year).
I find it impossible to believe that this is a coincidence, and I believe right from the get go UKIP was only ever the conservatives MK2.

[Vicky.]

Maybe they should all just go into a coalition. I can see it now...

Cons: Ed I will allow your 90% tax on millionaires (MPs excluded) if you allow me to boil the unemployed and disabled in boiling lager with fag ends in it.
UKIP: Best Add in those foreigners, only way I will agree
SNP: Will make quite handy compost, I'm on board aslong as we can send the goods to Scotland instead of wasting it on these English and Welsh bastards
Greens: As long as the trees are unharmed
Lib Dem: Whatever you all want...I'm just going along with it all for a slight bit of power.

[smudgie]

Maybe they should all just go into a coalition. I can see it now...

Cons: Ed I will allow your 90% tax on millionaires (MPs excluded) if you allow me to boil the unemployed and disabled in boiling lager with fag ends in it.
UKIP: Best Add in those foreigners, only way I will agree
SNP: Will make quite handy compost, I'm on board aslong as we can send the goods to Scotland instead of wasting it on these English and Welsh bastards
Greens: As long as the trees are unharmed
Lib Dem: Whatever you all want...I'm just going along with it all for a slight bit of power.

:laugh::laugh: Yep, I can see it all now.

[Kizzy]

:joker: that sound scarily doable!

[the truth]

Maybe they should all just go into a coalition. I can see it now...

Cons: Ed I will allow your 90% tax on millionaires (MPs excluded) if you allow me to boil the unemployed and disabled in boiling lager with fag ends in it.
UKIP: Best Add in those foreigners, only way I will agree
SNP: Will make quite handy compost, I'm on board aslong as we can send the goods to Scotland instead of wasting it on these English and Welsh bastards
Greens: As long as the trees are unharmed
Lib Dem: Whatever you all want...I'm just going along with it all for a slight bit of power.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry :laugh::bawling:

[user104658]

Not sure it's really a surprise. UKIP simply = Tories that were too outwardly racist to be in a mainstream party... no?

[the truth]

Not sure it's really a surprise. UKIP simply = Tories that were too outwardly racist to be in a mainstream party... no?

farage is not racist

[Kizzy]

Who said he was?

[the truth]

Who said he was?

I just said he isn't

[user104658]

farage is not racist

Ok.

[empire]

do we have to live in a society, that controls are opinion of words, there's one word for that is,mind control programming, people are afraid to say what they think, and we are suppose to be a free country, I mean katie hopkins tweets what she says,and people want the police to put her in a cell, people in this country think the word chink is far worse that the sickest crimes that happen in are country.

[Crimson Dynamo]

the years of one party winning are over. welcome to euro politics

[user104658]

do we have to live in a society, that controls are opinion of words, there's one word for that is,mind control programming, people are afraid to say what they think, and we are suppose to be a free country, I mean katie hopkins tweets what she says,and people want the police to put her in a cell, people in this country think the word chink is far worse that the sickest crimes that happen in are country.
I don't think it's worse than the sickest crimes, I don't think anyone does, that's somewhat ridiculous hyperbole.

I do however think that using words like "chink" is casually racist, or I suppose, more accurately, I think that people who casually use words like "chink" as if it's any normal throwaway term are utter arseholes. Satire / comedy is different and has its place.

I don't believe in censorship so I wouldn't censor them or make it a legal issue, but I do fully support anyone who wants nothing to do with that sort of person, and I certainly don't think they belong anywhere near any sort of political power or influence. They are bigots. Pure and simple. Maybe not the biggest or worst in the world, but bigots nonetheless.

[Nedusa]

farage is going to win millions of votes....trust me

Amen to that...........

[joeysteele]

Well that is expected that UKIP will win millions of votes,what quantity of millions is the real issue.

With just 10% of the vote,if the same numbers vote that voted in 2010, he would have something like 3,000,000 votes but no seats.

Even with 20% of the votes and around 6,000,000 votes cast,he would be hard pressed to win 7/8 seats.

The mountain he has to climb is that he needs Labour and the Conservatives way down in the lower 30s and himself on around 24% to be likely of any breakthrough as to just double figures of seats won.

That is the challenge of this electoral 'first past the post system', grossly unfair that it can be most of the time.

[user104658]

Exactly. He could get a few million votes and still have no seats at all, if those votes are spread out across the whole country.

[user104658]

I just noticed that I said "he" and not "they" and several other people have too... Which just sums up UKIP support for me. People are voting for Farage - no doubt a proficient orator - because he blares a convincing trumpet. The majority of the party's potential MPs are oozing pustule covered troglodytes.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I just noticed that I said "he" and not "they" and several other people have too... Which just sums up UKIP support for me. People are voting for Farage - no doubt a proficient orator - because he blares a convincing trumpet. The majority of the party's potential MPs are oozing pustule covered troglodytes.

hows the weather up in your ivory tower today?

[user104658]

hows the weather up in your ivory tower today?
I'm actually sat on my own in a lovely little cafe in a sleepy and affluent little Scottish village, having a home baked fruit scone and a large coffee, safe in the knowledge that there's absolutely zero chance of my next MP being a UKIP member, pondering politics and suicide (not my own, to be clear).

The skies are blue, I can't see a cloud at all actually, and it's warm in the sun yet there's a fresh breeze.

I'm not going to lie LT, on balance the weather is pretty ****ing spectacular.

[MTVN]

Isn't that a lovely little image

[Livia]

Isn't that a lovely little image

Except for... a) it's Scotland, and... b) TS is in the picture.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm actually sat on my own in a lovely little cafe in a sleepy and affluent little Scottish village, having a home baked fruit scone and a large coffee, safe in the knowledge that there's absolutely zero chance of my next MP being a UKIP member, pondering politics and suicide (not my own, to be clear).

The skies are blue, I can't see a cloud at all actually, and it's warm in the sun yet there's a fresh breeze.

I'm not going to lie LT, on balance the weather is pretty ****ing spectacular.

That is one of the big problems with open prisons...too much time in the local village when you should be breaking rocks

:fist:

[user104658]

Except for... a) it's Scotland, and... b) TS is in the picture.
Infraction! Personal insults to Scotland.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Infraction! Personal insults to Scotland.

i agree

ban ha


(again) :fan:

[kirklancaster]

Except for... a) it's Scotland, and... b) TS is in the picture.

joker: Ouch.

[user104658]

joker: Ouch.
It's OK Kirk, Livia has no idea what I look like, if she did she wouldnt be able to come on the forum any more. She would get too excited with hunks* like you and me around.

*Hunks: words not heard since the 90's, brought to you by TS.

[Livia]

Infraction! Personal insults to Scotland.

I'm just ****ing with ya, you know this...

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's OK Kirk, Livia has no idea what I look like, if she did she wouldnt be able to come on the forum any more. She would get too excited with hunks* like you and me around.

*Hunks: words not heard since the 90's, brought to you by TS.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1349/1271943323_730f59c28a.jpg


:hehe:

[Livia]

It's OK Kirk, Livia has no idea what I look like, if she did she wouldnt be able to come on the forum any more. She would get too excited with hunks* like you and me around.

*Hunks: words not heard since the 90's, brought to you by TS.

I'm sure this is true. If only in your own head x

[Livia]

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1349/1271943323_730f59c28a.jpg


:hehe:

Corrrrr....

[smudgie]

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1349/1271943323_730f59c28a.jpg


:hehe:

:lovedup:
Not gonna lie..I am sat drooling here.






:joker:

[user104658]

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1349/1271943323_730f59c28a.jpg


:hehe:
How did you get that picture?? Oh Jesus... You don't have any of the pictures from later in the evening do you? Please say no. I don't want to be the next Jennifer Lawrence :(.

(In all seriousness, the guy on the left looks so much like a guy I used to work with that I'm actually wondering if it is him.)

[Livia]

How did you get that picture?? Oh Jesus... You don't have any of the pictures from later in the evening do you? Please say no. I don't want to be the next Jennifer Lawrence :(.

(In all seriousness, the guy on the left looks so much like a guy I used to work with that I'm actually wondering if it is him.)

Will you pass on my phone number?

[user104658]

Will you pass on my phone number?
This is clearly just a convoluted excuse to send me your phone number...