Disestablishment of the Church - What are your opinions?

[JoshBB]

My personal opinion is that no religion should be given priority and that the spiritual lords should not have places based purely on religion. Thoughts? Discuss below and there's a poll too.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes its a natural progression

Also get it right out of schools. Pupils should be taught that no gods exist and that religion flourishes with ignorance and dies with education.

[JoshBB]

Yes its a natural progression

Also get it right out of schools. Pupils should be taught that no gods exist and that religion flourishes with ignorance and dies with education.

I don't think we can disprove/prove a God, so surely it would be better to simply teach that some believe that a God exists and some believe there is no God.

[kirklancaster]

Yes its a natural progression

Also get it right out of schools. Pupils should be taught that no gods exist and that religion flourishes with ignorance and dies with education.

OK. I'll agree, if we start right out with err.... Let me ponder.... Oh, yeah, I've got it.... Islam!

Yeah. Let's ban that from being taught in UK schools, and let's close all Mosques first before we start on Christianity and Judaism and the other religions.

So who's going to be first then in starting a public campaign to achieve this? Josh or LT?

Somehow, I think if anything remotely similar to this stupid neo-Nazi proposition is ever tried, the first and only targets would be Christianity and Judaism, because they are perceived as having moderate followers so represent soft targets. That would be a HUGE error of judgement.

[Livia]

Everyone has a right to follow their own faith. However, I believe the way forward is to have a more secular society. I believe that religion should be taught in schools, but it should be a broad overview of religions. If you want to study your own religion you should do it in your own time.

[JoshBB]

OK. I'll agree, if we start right out with err.... Let me ponder.... Oh, yeah, I've got it.... Islam!

Yeah. Let's ban that from being taught in UK schools, and let's close all Mosques first before we start on Christianity and Judaism and the other religions.

So who's going to be first then in starting a public campaign to achieve this? Josh or LT?

Somehow, I think if anything remotely similar to this stupid neo-Nazi proposition is ever tried, the first and only targets would be Christianity and Judaism, because they are perceived as having moderate followers so represent soft targets. That would be a HUGE error of judgement.

I am not in favour of banning religion being taught in schools, as long as they state that there is actually no proper evidence for the religion (none can be proven). If there was an islamic established church I would want that disestablished the same way.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't think we can disprove/prove a God, so surely it would be better to simply teach that some believe that a God exists and some believe there is no God.

By the same argument you may as well include the loch ness monster, the giant galaxy turtle and betty the spotted goat god from Venus.

All cant be proved or disproved

I am afraid that is not a valid argument

[Crimson Dynamo]

No children should be allowed in mosques or churches. If you want to go and learn or follow a religion it should be adults only. Let a kid get to 18 and make his or her own mind up.

If this happened religion would rapidly die out, especially Islam

[JoshBB]

By the same argument you may as well include the loch ness monster, the giant galaxy turtle and betty the spotted goat god from Venus.

All cant be proved or disproved

I am afraid that is not a valid argument

I agree that it is not a valid argument if you are using it to try and suggest a God exists, but since we cannot outright disprove these things exist I think it would be unfair to suggest as such. I would be outraged in that situation. When we have 100% evidence that no gods exist, I am then in favour of removing religion from schools altogether. Teaching a known lie seems utterly pointless to me.

[Livia]

By the same argument you may as well include the loch ness monster, the giant galaxy turtle and betty the spotted goat god from Venus.

All cant be proved or disproved

I am afraid that is not a valid argument

You can't stop people believing in something because you don't believe in it, Trumpet. There are lots of things that can't be proven by science, the existence of God is just one of them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I agree that it is not a valid argument if you are using it to try and suggest a God exists, but since we cannot outright disprove these things exist I think it would be unfair to suggest as such. I would be outraged in that situation. When we have 100% evidence that no gods exist, I am then in favour of removing religion from schools altogether. Teaching a known lie seems utterly pointless to me.

Like all fables it should be taught as such. Do gods exist? - no they do not. Are faeries real? No. Do mediums speak to the dead? No. What happens when we die? We rot away. Is there life after death? No. Astrology? Bollocks. Ghosts? Bollocks. Is Kirk too fond of betting? Yes.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You can't stop people believing in something because you don't believe in it, Trumpet. There are lots of things that can't be proven by science, the existence of God is just one of them.

We teach children the best knowledge we have available today and not hearsay from a book 2000 years old from a part of the world that if they told us tomorrow was Wednesday we would check the calendar.

If they wish to believe it when they are adults fine, like star trek, but children should be shielded from religion at all costs.

[kirklancaster]

I am not in favour of banning religion being taught in schools, as long as they state that there is actually no proper evidence for the religion (none can be proven). If there was an islamic established church I would want that disestablished the same way.

We cannot prove or disprove a host of other theories which are taught in schools as fact including Evolution.

Heinrich Schliemann did not discover Troy or Agamemnon's treasure - he actually excavated way below the ruins of Troy and planted the treasure, but such fallacies are still being taught in schools and even universities.

And Islamic 'churches' Josh are Mosques and there are thousands of them in the UK.

I personally do not care if Christianity is not taught in schools as part of the curriculum, but I am quite certain that millions of other Christians do care.

What I do care about - very deeply - is that Christianity is not removed from school curriculum exclusively and for the wrong B.S. P.C. reasons.

[Livia]

We teach children the best knowledge we have available today and not hearsay from a book 2000 years old from a part of the world that if they told us tomorrow was Wednesday we would check the calendar.

If they wish to believe it when they are adults fine, like star trek, but children should be shielded from religion at all costs.

How can you know that you don't believe in something unless you know about it? I'm not saying give kids a religious education, I'm saying educate them about religion.

And my book's 5000 years old, incidentally.

[kirklancaster]

How can you know that you don't believe in something unless you know about it? I'm not saying give kids a religious education, I'm saying educate them about religion.

And my book's 5000 years old, incidentally.

And my book.

[Livia]

And my book.

Aren't you a Christian, Kirk? Or are you alluding to the fact that Jesus said he supports the laws of Moses?

[kirklancaster]

Like all fables it should be taught as such. Do gods exist? - no they do not. Are faeries real? No. Do mediums speak to the dead? No. What happens when we die? We rot away. Is there life after death? No. Astrology? Bollocks. Ghosts? Bollocks. Is Kirk too fond of betting? Yes.

:joker:

[MTVN]

If all mention of religion in schools was abolished then kids are going to grow up with massive gaps in their knowledge when it comes to history, society, current affairs etc. I don't think it's something you can completely separate from education

On topic I have no issue with the current relationship between Church and state

[Crimson Dynamo]

If all mention of religion in schools was abolished then kids are going to grow up with massive gaps in their knowledge when it comes to history, society, current affairs etc. I don't think it's something you can completely separate from education

On topic I have no issue with the current relationship between Church and state

Its quite easy to cover religion in a couple of lessons just as we cover all sorts of things. If we did keep it out of schools perhaps in a few generations we would not need to cover it and more time could be spent on science and cosmology.

[Dollface]

If all mention of religion in schools was abolished then kids are going to grow up with massive gaps in their knowledge when it comes to history, society, current affairs etc. I don't think it's something you can completely separate from education

On topic I have no issue with the current relationship between Church and state

:worship:

[Crimson Dynamo]

How can you know that you don't believe in something unless you know about it? I'm not saying give kids a religious education, I'm saying educate them about religion.

And my book's 5000 years old, incidentally.

Yes, it can be taught in history no problem and if the pupil says "sir is god real?" he can say "which one and NO"

[Dollface]

Its quite easy to cover religion in a couple of lessons just as we cover all sorts of things. If we did keep it out of schools perhaps in a few generations we would not need to cover it and more time could be spent on science and cosmology.

A couple of lessons? :shocked: I think it'd take way longer than that to cover religion

[Crimson Dynamo]

Religion is very dangerous

Just look at the latest crap to come from the boss of the catholics (you know the pope that everyone is falling over themselves to say is a good pope)

http://time.com/3674155/pope-francis-contraception-catholic-rabbits-comment/

6 millions turned up to hear his bronze age views in the Philippines

"The Philippine’s Catholic hierarchy has fought long and hard to restrict access to prophylactics. Over the last few decades as most countries embraced family planning, the Philippines has moved in the opposite direction, discouraging the use of contraception and prohibiting abortion under any circumstance. They cast condom use as anti-Catholic and anti-Filipino, insisting that couples ought to use “natural methods.”


sickening

[Dollface]

Yes, it can be taught in history no problem and if the pupil says "sir is god real?" he can say "which one and NO"

But religion is on-going
And how could he say no when there is no proof? He would simply have to say "It's up to you if God is real or not" because it is up to the individual and what they believe

[Crimson Dynamo]

A couple of lessons? :shocked: I think it'd take way longer than that to cover religion

why?

You cover why people believe and set it in historical context and then cover the main cults.

[Marsh.]

Which schools are these that are apparently teaching children to believe in God?

I went to a Catholic school and even they did nothing of the sort.

[Crimson Dynamo]

But religion is on-going
And how could he say no when there is no proof? He would simply have to say "It's up to you if God is real or not" because it is up to the individual and what they believe


There is no burden of proof on not believing so you dont have to.


Otherwise we go back to betty the goat god of venus (who is every bit as valid as Allah)

[Crimson Dynamo]

Which schools are these that are apparently teaching children to believe in God?

I went to a Catholic school and even they did nothing of the sort.

My friend stephen went to a catholic school and they taught him that every time he "sinned" a black mark was put on his heart, too many and he would die and only by confessing his sins would "god" remove them

he was also abused by priests


way to go religious school

[DemolitionRed]

Like all fables it should be taught as such. Do gods exist? - no they do not. Are faeries real? No. Do mediums speak to the dead? No. What happens when we die? We rot away. Is there life after death? No. Astrology? Bollocks. Ghosts? Bollocks. Is Kirk too fond of betting? Yes.

Depends how you look at it. The process of decomposition and all the components that made us are recycled to become something new, so there is a continuation of sorts.

I was brought up as a Catholic in France and had the fear of God put in me as a child. I really feared death because I believed I was a sinner. I'm much happier away from that or any faith now and am more than happy to know I may one day come back as a doorknob. Death is a bit of a pandoras box really and I no longer fear it.

[Dollface]

There is no burden of proof on not believing so you dont have to.


Otherwise we go back to betty the goat god of venus (who is every bit as valid as Allah)

I wish there were classes for learning about ghosts, faeries (and yes betty the goat god of venus :joker:) etc. because those things are real to me :lovedup: would much prefer an hour of supernatural talk than an hour of science crap

Going off topic now, i tend to do this :unsure:

[Ninastar]

If all mention of religion in schools was abolished then kids are going to grow up with massive gaps in their knowledge when it comes to history, society, current affairs etc. I don't think it's something you can completely separate from education

On topic I have no issue with the current relationship between Church and state

this tbh

[Dollface]

My friend stephen went to a catholic school and they taught him that every time he "sinned" a black mark was put on his heart, too many and he would die and only by confessing his sins would "god" remove them

he was also abused by priests


way to go religious school

His experience was probably in the minority..

I went to a Christian school and like Marsh, they never tried to teach to believe in God. There was 1 girl who wouldn't come to church with us and the school was completely accepting of that.

[Kizzy]

All hail betty!! :worship:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Depends how you look at it. The process of decomposition and all the components that made us are recycled to become something new, so there is a continuation of sorts.

I was brought up as a Catholic in France and had the fear of God put in me as a child. I really feared death because I believed I was a sinner. I'm much happier away from that or any faith now and am more than happy to know I may one day come back as a doorknob. Death is a bit of a pandoras box really and I no longer fear it.

well yes we continue for a long time after death (if not cremated) decomposing and being eaten by various bacteria and indeed our atoms then become bacteria atoms and so forth

[Crimson Dynamo]

All hail betty!! :worship:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/277/d/e/Goat_god_by_DarkMask.jpg


she, who shall not be named

[Crimson Dynamo]

His experience was probably in the minority..

I went to a Christian school and like Marsh, they never tried to teach to believe in God. There was 1 girl who wouldn't come to church with us and the school was completely accepting of that.

what do you think the raison d'etre of faith schools is ?

[Marsh.]

My friend stephen went to a catholic school and they taught him that every time he "sinned" a black mark was put on his heart, too many and he would die and only by confessing his sins would "god" remove them

he was also abused by priests


way to go religious school

When was this? Sounds like a very extreme situation and not one representative of everything.

[Dollface]

what do you think the raison d'etre of faith schools is ?

the what of the what?

ohhh --googled

& to be honest, i don't know :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

the what of the what?

what is the point of a faith school?

[kirklancaster]

Aren't you a Christian, Kirk? Or are you alluding to the fact that Jesus said he supports the laws of Moses?

I have already told everyone on here Liv, that I would be a 'Jew for Jesus' if I was Jewish. I am a very unorthodox Christian who believes in both books of the bible, in YAHWEH as the one true God, and in Jesus as The Christ.

In fact I really believe that it is only on whether Jesus was the Messiah, where I really differ in my beliefs (not my practices) from Jews.

People forget that there was no such thing as a 'Christian' in Christ's time. Jesus and his parent's were Jews, as were all his disciples, and they all believed in the laws of Moses and Old Testament scripture.

I have a huge affinity with Jews and Judaism - in fact, more than I have for some followers of certain branches of Christianity.

[DemolitionRed]

well yes we continue for a long time after death (if not cremated) decomposing and being eaten by various bacteria and indeed our atoms then become bacteria atoms and so forth

Even if we are cremated we become carbon (1 neutron 1 electron). Carbon is energy which goes on to become something else, which in turn goes on to fuel the creation of something else. Its a constant cycle of recycling because energy never dies.

Sorry, just being pedantic here ;)

[kirklancaster]

When was this? Sounds like a very extreme situation and not one representative of everything.

Only an individual teacher who was doo-lally :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Even if we are cremated we become carbon (1 neutron 1 electron). Carbon is energy which goes on to become something else, which in turn goes on to fuel the creation of something else. Its a constant cycle of recycling because energy never dies.

Sorry, just being pedantic here ;)

yes we are all stardust

:flutter:

[kirklancaster]

If all mention of religion in schools was abolished then kids are going to grow up with massive gaps in their knowledge when it comes to history, society, current affairs etc. I don't think it's something you can completely separate from education

On topic I have no issue with the current relationship between Church and state

Brilliant post MT.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Brilliant post MT.

why

when has not knowing about religion ever caused anyone an issue?

"you mean you dont know about Ganesh the Elephant headed Hindu god, well you cannot work at Starbucks"

"what, you have never heard of allah the prophet, well i am sorry a career in horticulture is not for you"

"do you mean to say that Jesus being magic and walking on water has escaped you, in tat case i am revoking your brain surgeon license"



give me a break

[Marsh.]

why

when has not knowing about religion ever caused anyone an issue?

"you mean you dont know about Ganesh the Elephant headed Hindu god, well you cannot work at Starbucks"

"what, you have never heard of allah the prophet, well i am sorry a career in horticulture is not for you"

"do you mean to say that Jesus being magic and walking on water has escaped you, in tat case i am revoking your brain surgeon license"



give me a break

If those little snippets are all you think religious education amounts to then there are some huge gaps in your own education.

[Ramsay]

Yes, kill it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes, kill it.

:clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

If those little snippets are all you think religious education amounts to then there are some huge gaps in your own education.

let me sum it up for you morsh

"be nice to people"


there endeth the fecking lesson




(and if you are not then we kill you)

[jennyjuniper]

Like all fables it should be taught as such. Do gods exist? - no they do not. Are faeries real? No. Do mediums speak to the dead? No. What happens when we die? We rot away. Is there life after death? No. Astrology? Bollocks. Ghosts? Bollocks. Is Kirk too fond of betting? Yes.

How can you be sure. Take the life after death issue. You can't say a definate no unless youv'e been there etc., Best surely to say you don't know or don't believe so.

[kirklancaster]

why

when has not knowing about religion ever caused anyone an issue?

Give me a break

Let's pose the question another way; What about all the thousands of conflicts and wars which have been fought by man which had no religious cause or element at all?

WW 1
WW 2
Vietnam.

In fact, I'll leave it to the experts:

According to the 'Encyclopedia of Wars':

"Of the 1,763 major conflicts in recorded history, only 123 of them can be classified as having been fought over religious differences. That’s less than 7 percent.

The encyclopedia also explains that the number of people killed in these conflicts amounts to only two percent. This means that even when wars have been fought over religious disputes, they tend to be less bloody than when they are fought for other reasons."

More on this from Rabbi Alan Lurie:

"History simply does not support the hypothesis that religion is the major cause of conflict. The wars of the ancient world were rarely, if ever, based on religion. These wars were for territorial conquest, to control borders, secure trade routes, or respond to an internal challenge to political authority. In fact, the ancient conquerors, whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, or Roman, openly welcomed the religious beliefs of those they conquered, and often added the new gods to their own pantheon.

Medieval and Renaissance wars were also typically about control and wealth as city-states vied for power, often with the support, but rarely instigation, of the Church. And the Mongol Asian rampage, which is thought to have killed nearly 30 million people, had no religious component whatsoever."

More:

What about all the millions of annual cases worldwide of murders, street crimes, domestic abuse, beatings, robberies, rapes, child abuse etc. etc. --
-- none of which are caused by religion, and all of which are carried out by humans who are not religious?

What about all this?

[smudgie]

Pretty simple really.
If people don't want religion then the places of worship will shut down due to not getting used, so people vote with their feet and bums on seats.

The school my kids went to taught them that their were different religions but did not preach any of them.

[kirklancaster]

How can you be sure. Take the life after death issue. You can't say a definate no unless youv'e been there etc., Best surely to say you don't know or don't believe so.

More sense from Jenny.

[kirklancaster]

Pretty simple really.
If people don't want religion then the places of worship will shut down due to not getting used, so people vote with their feet and bums on seats.

The school my kids went to taught them that their were different religions but did not preach any of them.

Superb point Smudgie.

[AnnieK]

There will always be religion....it needs to be taught in schools in the hope that kids listen and learn the more tolerant to those of different faiths surely. If it is taken out of schools kids will only learn their parents faiths and beliefs and believe that anything else is wrong?

[Marsh.]

let me sum it up for you morsh

"be nice to people"


there endeth the fecking lesson




(and if you are not then we kill you)

Again completely missing the point of religious education.

It's like saying Hitler's reign was a bad point in history so don't inform future generations about it. Education is crucial.

[Marsh.]

Let's pose the question another way; What about all the thousands of conflicts and wars which have been fought by man which had no religious cause or element at all?

WW 1
WW 2
Vietnam.

In fact, I'll leave it to the experts:

According to the 'Encyclopedia of Wars':

"Of the 1,763 major conflicts in recorded history, only 123 of them can be classified as having been fought over religious differences. That’s less than 7 percent.

The encyclopedia also explains that the number of people killed in these conflicts amounts to only two percent. This means that even when wars have been fought over religious disputes, they tend to be less bloody than when they are fought for other reasons."

More on this from Rabbi Alan Lurie:

"History simply does not support the hypothesis that religion is the major cause of conflict. The wars of the ancient world were rarely, if ever, based on religion. These wars were for territorial conquest, to control borders, secure trade routes, or respond to an internal challenge to political authority. In fact, the ancient conquerors, whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, or Roman, openly welcomed the religious beliefs of those they conquered, and often added the new gods to their own pantheon.

Medieval and Renaissance wars were also typically about control and wealth as city-states vied for power, often with the support, but rarely instigation, of the Church. And the Mongol Asian rampage, which is thought to have killed nearly 30 million people, had no religious component whatsoever."

More:

What about all the millions of annual cases worldwide of murders, street crimes, domestic abuse, beatings, robberies, rapes, child abuse etc. etc. --
-- none of which are caused by religion, and all of which are carried out by humans who are not religious?

What about all this?

:clap1:

[Josy]

If there ever comes a time when there is no religion there will be something else to take it's place and attempt to control the masses.

That said I'm of the opinion that if people want to have a faith then that's fair enough, if people don't then that's fair enough too it's when people start wanting a say about the other persons choices that's when the trouble starts.

[kirklancaster]

If there ever comes a time when there is no religion there will be something else to take it's place and attempt to control the masses.

That said I'm of the opinion that if people want to have a faith then that's fair enough, if people don't then that's fair enough too it's when people start wanting a say about the other persons choices that's when the trouble starts.

A well written post Josy, and the section which I have emboldened is exactly what is being proposed by some on here.

Livia absolutely nails it when she advocates teaching children about all religions without ramming any particular one down their throats. It is only warped adults who warp children's minds and in that perverse practice, ignorance is a far more more lethal weapon than any education.

[smudgie]

If there ever comes a time when there is no religion there will be something else to take it's place and attempt to control the masses.

That said I'm of the opinion that if people want to have a faith then that's fair enough, if people don't then that's fair enough too it's when people start wanting a say about the other persons choices that's when the trouble starts.

:clap2:

I agree Josy.
Down to personal choice, we should all have the choice to believe or not.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If there ever comes a time when there is no religion there will be something else to take it's place and attempt to control the masses.

That said I'm of the opinion that if people want to have a faith then that's fair enough, if people don't then that's fair enough too it's when people start wanting a say about the other persons choices that's when the trouble starts.

or teaching kids that it is real and factual

yes. I agree

[user104658]

People should be free to believe in literally anything they want to believe in, but yes - as I said on another thread today - keep it out of government. Not everyone believes the same and not everyone believes at all, and frankly, for those of us who don't follow any organised religion, having our world leaders bleat on about what are (to us) fictional characters and fairytales becomes very quickly ridiculous. Even people who are religious must appreciate that, surely? Imagine DC stood up tomorrow and in all seriousness announced that we must follow the charge of Ares and defeat our enemies in the name of the king of the gods - Zeus. What would you be thinking?

[InOne]

Kids need to be taught about Religion so they just don't swallow what their parents and family tell them. If none of it was taught in school and they went home and only got their families view they'd grow up very narrow minded indeed.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Kids need to be taught about Religion so they just don't swallow what their parents and family tell them. If none of it was taught in school and they went home and only got their families view they'd grow up very narrow minded indeed.

Indeed it needs to be taught that it was a product of an age when many of the answers we have today were not around, that it is fictitious and that we do not need it.

[kirklancaster]

Kids need to be taught about Religion so they just don't swallow what their parents and family tell them. If none of it was taught in school and they went home and only got their families view they'd grow up very narrow minded indeed.

Well said and very true.

[InOne]

Indeed it needs to be taught that it was a product of an age when many of the answers we have today were not around, that it is fictitious and that we do not need it.

Yep. Get 'em questioning young.