Halal slaughter: Large increase reported in number of animals not being stunned

[InOne]

There has been a large increase in the proportion of animals killed through religious slaughter, a survey for the Food Standards Agency has found.



The number of cattle killed according to the principles of Islamic halal slaughter, in which animals are killed without first being stunned, rose by nearly a third between 2011 and 2013, while the number of sheep not being stunned increased by half.

The only progress on animal welfare was with halal-slaughtered poultry, where slightly more (1.7 per cent) were stunned than previously.

The number of animals killed without being first stunned for Jewish kosher slaughter decreased across the board in the same period, however.

The overwhelming majority of animals killed using halal methods are stunned before killing; around 80 per cent, according to the British Veterinary Association.

This proportion appears to be falling, however. Awal Fuseini, certification manager of the Halal Food Authority, which stuns its animals, told The Times newspaper that the increase was due to “stronger campaigning” by some Muslim groups who believed stunning killed animals.

He said a trial to show that animals recovered would help convince campaigners that stunning was in accordance with Islamic law.

“If we are given the backing to do the trial then we can prove to people that whatever information they have that stunning kills animals is not true,” he told the newspaper.

One in 50 cattle killed in Britain is not stunned; roughly one in 30 chickens suffer the same fate. The figure rises to one in seven for sheep and goats.

The figures were obtained by visits from FSA officials to a representative sample of 232 slaughterhouses and was conducted in September 2013.

Working with the RSPCA, the British Veterinary Association has gathered 100,000 signatures on a petition calling for the end of the practice.

“The success of the e-petition reaching 100,000 signatures two months before the deadline shows the strength of public opinion and support for the aims of our campaign,” BVA president John Blackwell said. “Slaughter without stunning unnecessarily compromises animal welfare at the time of death and as such we call for an end to its practice.”

David Bowles, RSPCA Head of Public Affairs said there should be no exemption for religious groups.

“There is growing public concern about the welfare of farm animals and people believe animals should be treated as humanely as possible throughout their lives, including at the time of slaughter,” he argued.

“Animal welfare science and practical experience indicate that cutting animals’ throats while they are fully conscious can cause significant pain and distress. There should be no exemption under the law to allow non-stun slaughter and we urge politicians to take action on this important issue.”

Some religious groups reacted angrily. Shimon Cohen, the director of Shechita UK, a Jewish organisation which campaigns on matters relating to the protection of the provision of kosher meat, said:

“The BVA has been obsessed with removing the right of religious communities to carry out religious slaughter, without conclusive evidence that it is less humane than conventional, industrialised mechanical slaughter. That they continue to campaign on this issue, despite the Government’s repeated assurances that it will not be swayed, is a dereliction of their responsibility to focus on far more severe welfare issues such as mis-stunning and animal cruelty.”

A spokesperson for the Department for the Environment, Food, and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) said: “The government has no intention of banning religious slaughter. The government would prefer animals to be stunned before slaughter, but we respect the rights of Jewish and Muslim communities to eat meat in accordance with their beliefs.”

Link: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/increase-in-animals-not-being-stunned-before-they-are-halal-slaughtered-10012559.html

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

barbaric :bored:

[Brother Leon]

Halal and Kosher Meat >>>

Especially Kosher tbh.

[arista]

barbaric :bored:


But thats their way

[Dollface]

But thats their way

Doesn't make it any less barbaric

[JoshBB]

If you were really concerned then you'd be vegetarian, that is the truth. Halal or not it is still barbaric in ways and putting all the blame on halal is closet islamophobia.

[Dollface]

If you were really concerned then you'd be vegetarian, that is the truth. Halal or not it is still barbaric in ways and putting all the blame on halal is closet islamophobia.

Oh Josh, please get out of Islams arse. They make it as painful as possible for the animal, they are tied up by their legs/feet which breaks their legs first, then their throat is slit. It's a lot more traumatic than when the animal is stunned first.

[JoshBB]

Oh Josh, please get out of Islams arse. They make it as painful as possible for the animal, they are tied up by their legs/feet which breaks their legs first, then their throat is slit. It's a lot more traumatic than when the animal is stunned first.

I'm defending a religion constantly attacked by the media and society at every opportunity, islamaphobia is rampant. Also you missed my point which is that people don't care about the animals just muslim bashing again

[Crimson Dynamo]

:facepalm:

2000 years ago you could kill and animal with your hands. but now we have moved on a bit and there is a better way

but no, lets just stick with the barbaric old way whilst we drive to the shops in our BMW X5s, texting on our iphones

just ridiculous

[armand.kay]

If you were really concerned then you'd be vegetarian, that is the truth. Halal or not it is still barbaric in ways and putting all the blame on halal is closet islamophobia.

This!
Bye at people pretending to care for animals when they are happy to munch on a Big Mac :laugh:
But I guess knowing it's been stunned makes them feel better about themselves.

[Cal.]

I am vegetarian and any kind of slaughter is horrible - however Halal is especially cruel and vile and I refuse to be persuaded otherwise. However, if people not of this religion truly believe that all slaughterhouses are lovely pleasurable places for animals to pass away peacefully, then they are seriously deluded. Behind closed doors and all that,

[T*]

vile, absolutely vile

[Kazanne]

I am vegetarian and any kind of slaughter is horrible - however Halal is especially cruel and vile and I refuse to be persuaded otherwise. However, if people not of this religion truly believe that all slaughterhouses are lovely pleasurable places for animals to pass away peacefully, then they are seriously deluded. Behind closed doors and all that,

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Well done you.

[T*]

If you were really concerned then you'd be vegetarian, that is the truth. Halal or not it is still barbaric in ways and putting all the blame on halal is closet islamophobia.
:rolleyes:
Oh Josh, please get out of Islams arse. They make it as painful as possible for the animal, they are tied up by their legs/feet which breaks their legs first, then their throat is slit. It's a lot more traumatic than when the animal is stunned first.

:clap1:

[armand.kay]

Oh Josh, please get out of Islams arse. They make it as painful as possible for the animal, they are tied up by their legs/feet which breaks their legs first, then their throat is slit. It's a lot more traumatic than when the animal is stunned first.

Lol this is a lie.

[Dollface]

Lol this is a lie.

Prove it

[Kizzy]

I am vegetarian and any kind of slaughter is horrible - however Halal is especially cruel and vile and I refuse to be persuaded otherwise. However, if people not of this religion truly believe that all slaughterhouses are lovely pleasurable places for animals to pass away peacefully, then they are seriously deluded. Behind closed doors and all that,


Well said! I suggest people read up on 'stunning' to decide how ethical it is.

[armand.kay]

Prove it

Video showing the process of halal killing.
dU3O5rykwe4

If this isn't enough proof then you can post proof of your own :hehe:

[Brother Leon]

Lol this is a lie.

[2]


Killing the animal is "barbaric" either way. Lol at thinking Stunnig and killing it is "Oh Ok". I'm no vegetarian and I eat meat and unless you are a vegetarian then you aren't in any place to deem how ethical killing animals for meat is really.

[Dollface]

Video showing the process of halal killing.
dU3O5rykwe4

If this isn't enough proof then you can post proof of your own :hehe:

I wont be watching any videos on halal killings.

[Kazanne]

Well said! I suggest people read up on 'stunning' to decide how ethical it is.

:cheer2::clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Dollface]

[2]


Killing the animal is "barbaric" either way. Lol at thinking Stunnig and killing it is "Oh Ok". I'm no vegetarian and I eat meat and unless you are a vegetarian then you aren't in any place to deem how ethical killing animals for meat is really.

Vegetarians are just hypocrites. They still eat milk, eggs, etc. which are products of animals, animals most likely kept in cages.
The only people i have respect for are vegans.

[Cal.]

Vegetarians are just hypocrites. They still eat milk, eggs, etc. which are products of animals, animals most likely kept in cages.
The only people i have respect for are vegans.

No hun, cows live on fields and are milked via painless machinery, and that's what free range eggs are for.

[Dollface]

No hun, cows live on fields and are milked via painless machinery, and that's what free range eggs are for.

How do you know it's painless?

My brother went to a milking farm for a school trip and he came home quite upset because of how the animals were treated. There were lots of them in tiny pens and a lot of their water bowls were empty.

I still stand by what i say, the only people i have respect for are vegans, i wish i had it in me to become one.

[Firewire]

I love beef

[Cal.]

How do you know it's painless?

My brother went to a milking farm for a school trip and he came home quite upset because of how the animals were treated. There were lots of them in tiny pens and a lot of their water bowls were empty.

I still stand by what i say, the only people i have respect for are vegans, i wish i had it in me to become one.

If it hurt cows would show signs of distress - not the behaviour they actually portray such as lining up to be milked. They are there for a few hours each day if that.

[Kazanne]

Vegetarians are just hypocrites. They still eat milk, eggs, etc. which are products of animals, animals most likely kept in cages.
The only people i have respect for are vegans.

Well we 'veggies' are trying, I am veggie,and try my very best just to eat free range eggs etc,but it is hard I have the upmost respect for anyone who at least tries to give it up,but people are already told what they can say or not say,we shouldn't be told what to eat,we all know what happens and it's peoples choice to choose.

[Dollface]

If it hurt cows would show signs of distress - not the behaviour they actually portray such as lining up to be milked. They are there for a few hours each day if that.

Well i hope you're right

[Kazanne]

If it hurt cows would show signs of distress - not the behaviour they actually portray such as lining up to be milked. They are there for a few hours each day if that.

I would think it's quite a relief :hehe:

[Tom4784]

One form of slaughter is hardly better than any other. The whole stunning aspect of execution is more for our conscience than the animals, if we cared that much about their welfare then we wouldn't eat them in the first place.

[Cal.]

One form of slaughter is hardly better than any other. The whole stunning aspect of execution is more for our conscience than the animals, if we cared that much about their welfare then we wouldn't eat them in the first place.

This is true - and the sad part is sometimes the stunning isn't even effective. In class we watched a video of the full slaughter process for turkeys and they are stunned and are checked twice to make sure they aren't concious - some even slip through and are then boiled alive/beheaded.

[Dollface]

Well we 'veggies' are trying, I am veggie,and try my very best just to eat free range eggs etc,but it is hard I have the upmost respect for anyone who at least tries to give it up,but people are already told what they can say or not say,we shouldn't be told what to eat,we all know what happens and it's peoples choice to choose.

I agree but i bloody hate it when people say only vegetarians should get to have a say about the meat industry.

[Vicky.]

I eat meat and enjoy it, and I don't plan to stop anytime soon. I don't think this means I can't find the act of making damn sure the animal feels the pain as its being killed disgusting :shrug:

[Cal.]

I agree but i bloody hate it when people say only vegetarians should get to have a say about the meat industry.

One side doesn't have more of a right to an opinion on the matter, there's pros and cons for everything.

[armand.kay]

I agree but i bloody hate it when people say only vegetarians should get to have a say about the meat industry.

I think it's hypercritical but that's just my opinion.

[Kazanne]

I eat meat and enjoy it, and I don't plan to stop anytime soon. I don't think this means I can't find the act of making damn sure the animal feels the pain as its being killed disgusting :shrug:

:clap1::clap1:Well said , all my family eat meat,I cant not give it them because I don't eat it,I just wish that humans could be trusted to make sure the animals feel the least amount of pain and stress , unfortunately some degenerates seem to get a buzz from hurting and teasing them before they are slaughtered,those people are scum.

[joeysteele]

:clap1::clap1:Well said , all my family eat meat,I cant not give it them because I don't eat it,I just wish that humans could be trusted to make sure the animals feel the least amount of pain and stress , unfortunately some degenerates seem to get a buzz from hurting and teasing them before they are slaughtered,those people are scum.

They are indeed Kazanne.

[user104658]

Fastest, most painless and most efficient way to kill is to cut the carotid artery. Pure and simple. No stunning, no fancy pants arsing around, one cut, done.

Cutting the carotid artery causes an instantaneous drop in blood pressure to the brain. This knocks an animal out cold, instantly, we're talking a fraction of a second. The animal then bleeds out and the heart stops in under a minute. They never feel a thing or even see it coming if it's done right.

Stunning before a kill is actually more likely to cause distress as there is more likely to be some retained consciousness, or multiple attempts might be required if it's not done properly.

Let's take religion totally out of the equation. Forget that it's about kosher / halal, whatever. A properly executed slit throat is simply the correct way to painlessly slaughter any animal.

[lime]

[2]


Killing the animal is "barbaric" either way. Lol at thinking Stunnig and killing it is "Oh Ok". I'm no vegetarian and I eat meat and unless you are a vegetarian then you aren't in any place to deem how ethical killing animals for meat is really.

:thumbs:

[Ninastar]

we should just kill humans instead tbh

[Kizzy]

If it hurt cows would show signs of distress - not the behaviour they actually portray such as lining up to be milked. They are there for a few hours each day if that.

They are given antibiotics to counter the infections they endure due to the excessive milking the hormones given cause them.
It's one reasons we are becoming resistant to antibiotics too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2012050/The-cocktail-20-chemicals-glass-milk.html

[DemolitionRed]

If you were really concerned then you'd be vegetarian, that is the truth. Halal or not it is still barbaric in ways and putting all the blame on halal is closet islamophobia.

I'm anything but islamophobic but I'm up for joining any campaign that will help put an end to religious slaughter without previously stunning the animal.

I do know that both Halal and Kosher chickens have to be stunned but religious chicken abattoirs have been known to turn down the voltage, which means the poor bird often comes round before having its throat cut.

[T*]

Vegetarians are just hypocrites. They still eat milk, eggs, etc. which are products of animals, animals most likely kept in cages.
The only people i have respect for are vegans.

my mums a vegetarian
we only eat free range stuff

[InOne]

If you were really concerned then you'd be vegetarian, that is the truth. Halal or not it is still barbaric in ways and putting all the blame on halal is closet islamophobia.

You're not making any sense and completely deflecting from any sort of point. Try less buzz words next time.

[Crimson Dynamo]

we should just kill humans instead tbh

:clap1:

[DemolitionRed]

I know an organic butcher who raises his own cattle. He told me, if beef is very red in colour, it means the animal was very fearful just before it died. Beef should be pink not red but unfortunately consumers prefer red beef.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I know an organic butcher who raises his own cattle. He told me, if beef is very red in colour, it means the animal was very fearful just before it died. Beef should be pink not red but unfortunately consumers prefer red beef.

and what is the science behind that claim?

[user104658]

we should just kill humans instead tbh
Yeah! Livia was just telling us all about "long pig" a few days ago.

Apparently human meat is so full of toxins that eating much of it will make you really ill, though.

[Kizzy]

Yeah! Livia was just telling us all about "long pig" a few days ago.

Apparently human meat is so full of toxins that eating much of it will make you really ill, though.

Who was saying that humans are the closest to pork?.... hmmmmm? :hmph:

[user104658]

and what is the science behind that claim?
Because if alarmed they will be in "fight or flight" mode resulting in more blood being in the muscle tissue that gets sliced n diced to make yummy yummy steak... One would assume.

[Vicky.]

I dont think I have ever seen pink beef :S

[user104658]

Who was saying that humans are the closest to pork?.... hmmmmm? :hmph:
It was Livia, she said she sometimes eats teenagers because she loves bacon but pigs aren't kosher. Something like that. That's basically what I remember from that thread anyway.

[user104658]

I dont think I have ever seen pink beef :S
A lot of butchers beef is quite pinky, supermarket beef tends to be bright red. However, I'm lead to believe that supermarkets actually often add extra red colouring to cheap meat cuts to make it look juicier / more appealing. Not sure how accurate that is though. Can't be bovered googling. (Get it? Bothered? Bovered? Bovine...? :hehe:)

[Kizzy]

It was Livia, she said she sometimes eats teenagers because she loves bacon but pigs aren't kosher. Something like that. That's basically what I remember from that thread anyway.

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7518745&highlight=pork#post7518745


Ahem... awaits apology

[kirklancaster]

Because if alarmed they will be in "fight or flight" mode resulting in more blood being in the muscle tissue that gets sliced n diced to make yummy yummy steak... One would assume.

Yes, you assume right - that is exactly the reason. A lot of butchers actually dye red meat products with cochineal or similar red colouring to make it more appealing to shoppers.

[DemolitionRed]

Its something to do with low levels of glycogen. That healthy unstressed animals have a naturally high glycogen content and glycogen levels are evident in the colour of the meat after slaughter, but if the animal is stressed prior or during slaughter the glycogen levels deplete making the meat a deep red in colour.

Any biologists in the house?

[user104658]

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7518745&highlight=pork#post7518745


Ahem... awaits apology
I stand corrected Kizzy! Though it was Livia who used the term long pork. And I think something about how she'll cook youngsters for house guests but doesn't eat them herself because they're too cute.

[DemolitionRed]

Supermarkets put carbon monoxide in their meat so it keeps its colour.

[user104658]

Supermarkets put carbon monoxide in their meat so it keeps its colour.
Sounds delicious...

I tried googling all about beef and stumbled across a guy comparing a massive, juicy grass fed steak to supermarket steak. He makes it sound so delicious. But I have flu and I literally can't taste anything at all... This is just depressing. What I wouldn't give to taste anything at all! This description of mouth watering organic beef is like torture.

[user104658]

Just realised I've come into a thread about unethical animal slaughter, and ended up craving steak. :joker:

[Northern Monkey]

Well.....I'm stunned:shocked:

[DemolitionRed]

Sounds delicious...

I tried googling all about beef and stumbled across a guy comparing a massive, juicy grass fed steak to supermarket steak. He makes it sound so delicious. But I have flu and I literally can't taste anything at all... This is just depressing. What I wouldn't give to taste anything at all! This description of mouth watering organic beef is like torture.

Hope you're feeling better soon.

[Livia]

I stand corrected Kizzy! Though it was Livia who used the term long pork. And I think something about how she'll cook youngsters for house guests but doesn't eat them herself because they're too cute.

That's an outrageous slur.

I will eat teenagers, but only Jewish ones... so long as they're not cute. Like lambs.

[smudgie]

I eat meat and enjoy it, and I don't plan to stop anytime soon. I don't think this means I can't find the act of making damn sure the animal feels the pain as its being killed disgusting :shrug:

:clap2:

My sentiments exactly.
I also like to think my meal has had a decent life as well.free range and outdoor bred all the way if possible.



If we were all vegetarians then most of these animals would not be born, they are bred to feed us all.

[Crimson Dynamo]

there are plenty on here that dream of a large piece of meat sliding down their throats


and that is before they have dinner


:dog:

[jennyjuniper]

I'm a vegetarian, but I don't try to stop others eating meat. It's a personal choice. However I would ask that whenever possible buy eggs and meat raised on ecological farms. They still have to die, I realise that, but at least until then their lives are kinder and more enjoyable.

[user104658]

I'm a vegetarian, but I don't try to stop others eating meat. It's a personal choice. However I would ask that whenever possible buy eggs and meat raised on ecological farms. They still have to die, I realise that, but at least until then their lives are kinder and more enjoyable.
See I think people should go with the taste angle more. The ethics angle will persuade a few to put their hands deeper into their pockets... But for most, "cheapness" wins out.

However, it is also true that organic beef raised in fields eating grass instead of eating grain in a barn tastes SO much better. Free range eggs taste a lot better than caged hen eggs too. People will pay more for better tasting food...

Unfortunately, I find free range chicken meat to be a bit scrawny / tough compared to its artificially bloated mass farmed counterpart. I prefer a nice blank miserable chook for something like a curry. Sorry chickens. Then again, my empathy for animals (which isn't huge to begin with) pretty much ends with mammals. I couldn't really give a stuff about "bird welfare"... A chicken has more DNA in common with a lettuce or a '03 Vauxhall Astra than it does with a human. That is a fact.

Although what really gets my goat, is when people start going into "insect rights". I mean come onnn...

[Kazanne]

there are plenty on here that dream of a large piece of meat sliding down their throats


and that is before they have dinner


:dog:

:shocked::laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

:shocked::laugh:

it wasnt just you i thought of

:hehe:

[kirklancaster]

it wasnt just you i thought of

:hehe:

Spill then LT. Who? :grin2:

[farhad]

Trying to ban halal meat is what exactly Hitler did to the jewish community, where he banned kosher. I can see the the exact similarities. Its been scientifically proven that the halal slaughter causes leastest pain to the animal, and imo its the most humane method. the guidline states that the knife should be very sharp and should be done away from the presences of other animals so it doesn't scare them.

[farhad]

Being stunned causes animals to suffer longer painful death and its not humane at all, if you want to attack the muslims then have the balls to attack the jewish kosher, both exactly the same principle. do your research done by german dietry institutions, in comparison to stunning and halal slaughter, hala slaughter the graph showed 0 pain signals, and in the slaughter we don't cut the whole head of, we cut the vessels of the windwipe,neck etc is cut and the pain signal responsible for pain is terminated. Animal does not die of pain, it dies of painless death.

[Dave600]

"Being stunned causes animals to suffer longer painful death and its not humane at all"

What nonsense, please provide evidence to back that up. Below is the CSIRO's findings which are the exact opposite to your claim. Essentially their findings found stunning removed all pain yet slaughter without stunning resulted in pain for periods between 10 and 30 seconds.

"However, EEG measurements indicated that animals in the unstunned slaughter group were likely to have experienced conscious pain up to 30 seconds post slaughter."

http://www.mla.com.au/Research-and-development/Search-RD-reports/RD-report-details/Animal-Welfare/Effects-of-Stunning-and-Thoracic-Sticking-on-Welfare-and-Meat-Quality-of-Halal-Slaughtered-Beef-Cattle/935

[Kazanne]

it wasnt just you i thought of

:hehe:

:laugh:

[Johnnyuk123]

A spokesperson for the Department for the Environment, Food, and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) said: “The government has no intention of banning religious slaughter. The government would prefer animals to be stunned before slaughter, but we respect the rights of Jewish and Muslim communities to eat meat in accordance with their beliefs.”

I would agree with this but ONLY if my rights to purchase none halal meat were respected by both communities which sadly it is not.

[Kizzy]

Supermarkets provide both so where's the beef?... ( see what I did there?)

[kirklancaster]

Being stunned causes animals to suffer longer painful death and its not humane at all, if you want to attack the muslims then have the balls to attack the jewish kosher, both exactly the same principle. do your research done by german dietry institutions, in comparison to stunning and halal slaughter, hala slaughter the graph showed 0 pain signals, and in the slaughter we don't cut the whole head of, we cut the vessels of the windwipe,neck etc is cut and the pain signal responsible for pain is terminated. Animal does not die of pain, it dies of painless death.

I was responding to your specific post. No Jewish person has posted on here on this specific subject and made the claims you have regarding how 'painless' and 'humane' Halal killing of animals is. If they had stated similar claims in respect of Kosher slaughter I would have responded to their post in exactly the same manner as I did to your post.

I have qualifications in Anatomy and Physiology and understand the central and peripheral nervous systems, which is why I totally refute your claims. There is also a wealth of scientific evidence which rebutts your claims, including the excellent link pasted by Dave 600 - reproduced below:

http://www.mla.com.au/Research-and-d...eef-Cattle/935

In addition, I reproduce below the results of another scientific research project into Religious Slaughter:

"Animals feel the pain of religious slaughter"

"Brain signals have shown that calves do appear to feel pain when slaughtered according to Jewish and Muslim religious law, strengthening the case for adapting the practices to make them more humane.

"I think our work is the best evidence yet that it's painful," says Craig Johnson, who led the study at Massey University in Palmerston North, New Zealand.

Johnson summarised his results last week in London when receiving an award from the UK Humane Slaughter Association. His team also showed that if the animal is concussed through stunning, signals corresponding to pain disappear.

The findings increase pressure on religious groups that practice slaughter without stunning to reconsider. "It provides further evidence, if it was needed, that slaughtering an animal without stunning it first is painful," says Christopher Wathes of the UK Farm Animal Welfare Council, which has long argued for the practice to end."

Finally, Farhad, I have the courage of my convictions and always have had, so you do not need to counsel me to "have" "balls" or question my bravery in any way.

I respond every single time to those who challenge me or who try to ridicule me - no matter if I stand alone and am outnumbered, because I wholly believe in what I say, and try to ensure - by painstaking research - that what what I say is supported by facts.

[Kizzy]

No method is foolproof.


'Animals may suffer when stunning procedures fail. This
Regulation should therefore provide for appropriate
back-up stunning equipment to be available to
minimise pain, distress or suffering to the animals.'

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/325000/regulation_1099_2009_en.pdf

[kirklancaster]

No method is foolproof.


'Animals may suffer when stunning procedures fail. This
Regulation should therefore provide for appropriate
back-up stunning equipment to be available to
minimise pain, distress or suffering to the animals.'

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/325000/regulation_1099_2009_en.pdf


I know the real reason why you have posted the above, but what is your point? Are you claiming that because 'stunning' sometimes fails, that it justifies animals being slaughtered without stunning them?

A bit like saying that anesthesia has been known to sometimes fail so because it is not 'foolproof' , then any backstreet operations where rogue surgeons remove limbs from patients without any type of pain killers are justified.

It is better to support a well-intentioned system that seeks to protect animals about to be slaughtered from pain, than to try to use the occasional failure of such a system to defend systems without any protection at all. In my opinion.

[Kizzy]

I know the real reason why you have posted the above, but what is your point? Are you claiming that because 'stunning' sometimes fails, that it justifies animals being slaughtered without stunning them?

A bit like saying that anesthesia has been known to sometimes fail so because it is not 'foolproof' , then any backstreet operations where rogue surgeons remove limbs from patients without any type of pain killers are justified.

It is better to support a well-intentioned system that seeks to protect animals about to be slaughtered from pain, than to try to use the occasional failure of such a system to defend systems without any protection at all. In my opinion.

I'll tell you the real reason... I posted on page one that I felt it was unethical, I have been looking for some up to date relevant information relating specifically to the UK that specifies governmental guidelines to back up my view.
I found it and posted it, there is no such thing as a backstreet abattoir as that would be illegal there already are protections in place for all methods of slaughter.
But as seen the stunning method has as many if not more issues attached, even considering there are laws to protect animal welfare.

[farhad]

I was responding to your specific post. No Jewish person has posted on here on this specific subject and made the claims you have regarding how 'painless' and 'humane' Halal killing of animals is. If they had stated similar claims in respect of Kosher slaughter I would have responded to their post in exactly the same manner as I did to your post.

I have qualifications in Anatomy and Physiology and understand the central and peripheral nervous systems, which is why I totally refute your claims. There is also a wealth of scientific evidence which rebutts your claims, including the excellent link pasted by Dave 600 - reproduced below:

http://www.mla.com.au/Research-and-d...eef-Cattle/935

In addition, I reproduce below the results of another scientific research project into Religious Slaughter:

"Animals feel the pain of religious slaughter"

"Brain signals have shown that calves do appear to feel pain when slaughtered according to Jewish and Muslim religious law, strengthening the case for adapting the practices to make them more humane.

"I think our work is the best evidence yet that it's painful," says Craig Johnson, who led the study at Massey University in Palmerston North, New Zealand.

Johnson summarised his results last week in London when receiving an award from the UK Humane Slaughter Association. His team also showed that if the animal is concussed through stunning, signals corresponding to pain disappear.

The findings increase pressure on religious groups that practice slaughter without stunning to reconsider. "It provides further evidence, if it was needed, that slaughtering an animal without stunning it first is painful," says Christopher Wathes of the UK Farm Animal Welfare Council, which has long argued for the practice to end."

Finally, Farhad, I have the courage of my convictions and always have had, so you do not need to counsel me to "have" "balls" or question my bravery in any way.

I respond every single time to those who challenge me or who try to ridicule me - no matter if I stand alone and am outnumbered, because I wholly believe in what I say, and try to ensure - by painstaking research - that what what I say is supported by facts.

The link does not exist, and even if they did research which doesn't provide its study method, if ofcourse carried out the wrong way, it will feel pain, hence it should be done by the professional butchers and done in accordance with the appropriate steps and guideline. The study that was carried out was done with the measurement of a machinal graph, and with appropriate action, it gave a sound result. Before posting your reference, need to know the background of these personals. Also they did not provide how they came to that conclusion, how did they detect that animals felts pain, nothing conclusive to show how it detected pain. Also why use anaesthetic?

At long last??!!....Umpteen studies prove that ritual slaughter is the most humane way vs 1.. ONE.. that says otherwise??!! Way to stand up for science Manny Goldstein

[kirklancaster]

I'll tell you the real reason... I posted on page one that I felt it was unethical, I have been looking for some up to date relevant information relating specifically to the UK that specifies governmental guidelines to back up my view.
I found it and posted it, there is no such thing as a backstreet abattoir as that would be illegal there already are protections in place for all methods of slaughter.
But as seen the stunning method has as many if not more issues attached, even considering there are laws to protect animal welfare.


I was too busy yesterday to respond to your post, and I was preparing to do so this morning, when on the news came a report of undercover filming inside an Halal Slaughterhouse in Thirsk. I'll let a related article about it expound:

"Inside the halal house of horrors:


Sickening footage shows 'evil' abattoir staff 'taunting sheep before hacking them to pieces'

Slaughtermen caught on camera 'hacking and sawing' at animals' throats

Sheep filmed being kicked, with one worker standing on an animal's neck

Staff laughed as a sheep bled to death with spectacles painted on its face

'Horrifying abuse' captured by animal rights campaigners at halal abattoir

One worker has been sacked and another three have been suspended

The Food Standards Agency has launched an urgent investigation

RSCPA and British Veterinary Association condemn 'shocking' footage

100,000-strong BVA petition means slaughter will be debated in Commons

A worker at a halal abattoir has been sacked and three others suspended after being filmed breaking strict rules on slaughtering sheep.

The men could face prosecution for the ‘horrifying yet routine abuse’ captured by animal rights campaigners using hidden cameras.

Slaughtermen at the Bowood Lamb abattoir in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, are seen ‘hacking and sawing’ at animals’ throats in apparent contravention of Islamic practice.

The RSPCA slammed the 'absolutely shocking' footage amid renewed calls to ban halal slaughter, which is opposed by the British Veterinary Association and 100,000 people in an online petition".

When I was at school, as part of our English studies, we had 'Comprehension', where we had to read diverse types of literature - both fact and fiction - and then, in an 'exam' type setting, we had to write essays on what we had read, without the benefit of the source material. This was to prove that not only had we actually read what we were supposed to have read, but also that we fully understood what we had read.

I recommend such a practice to save 'egg on face'.

[Kizzy]

I was too busy yesterday to respond to your post, and I was preparing to do so this morning, when on the news came a report of undercover filming inside an Halal Slaughterhouse in Thirsk. I'll let a related article about it expound:

"Inside the halal house of horrors:


Sickening footage shows 'evil' abattoir staff 'taunting sheep before hacking them to pieces'

Slaughtermen caught on camera 'hacking and sawing' at animals' throats

Sheep filmed being kicked, with one worker standing on an animal's neck

Staff laughed as a sheep bled to death with spectacles painted on its face

'Horrifying abuse' captured by animal rights campaigners at halal abattoir

One worker has been sacked and another three have been suspended

The Food Standards Agency has launched an urgent investigation

RSCPA and British Veterinary Association condemn 'shocking' footage

100,000-strong BVA petition means slaughter will be debated in Commons

A worker at a halal abattoir has been sacked and three others suspended after being filmed breaking strict rules on slaughtering sheep.

The men could face prosecution for the ‘horrifying yet routine abuse’ captured by animal rights campaigners using hidden cameras.

Slaughtermen at the Bowood Lamb abattoir in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, are seen ‘hacking and sawing’ at animals’ throats in apparent contravention of Islamic practice.

The RSPCA slammed the 'absolutely shocking' footage amid renewed calls to ban halal slaughter, which is opposed by the British Veterinary Association and 100,000 people in an online petition".

When I was at school, as part of our English studies, we had 'Comprehension', where we had to read diverse types of literature - both fact and fiction - and then, in an 'exam' type setting, we had to write essays on what we had read, without the benefit of the source material. This was to prove that not only had we actually read what we were supposed to have read, but also that we fully understood what we had read.

I recommend such a practice to save 'egg on face'.



The information you provided in your post was to some obscure Australian study and another a broken link.
I provided actual governmental UK guidelines... I fail to see how you could take issue with those.

I have seen the news item on the Thirsk abattoir, it is shocking and it shows that there is indeed a need to closely monitor who, how and where animals are slaughtered, however the method is not the issue here but the manner in which it was carried out which is quite rightly considered gross abuse of animals.

When I was at school, as part of our English studies, we had 'Comprehension', where we had to read diverse types of literature - both fact and fiction - and then, in an 'exam' type setting, we had to write essays on what we had read, without the benefit of the source material. This was to prove that not only had we actually read what we were supposed to have read, but also that we fully understood what we had read.

I recommend such a practice to save 'egg on face'.

What exactly are you trying to say here?... I'm a little confused as to the relevance.
I have English Language and Literature at GCSE level, I hope this qualifies me to reply to your posts.

[kirklancaster]

The link does not exist, and even if they did research which doesn't provide its study method, if ofcourse carried out the wrong way, it will feel pain, hence it should be done by the professional butchers and done in accordance with the appropriate steps and guideline. The study that was carried out was done with the measurement of a machinal graph, and with appropriate action, it gave a sound result. Before posting your reference, need to know the background of these personals. Also they did not provide how they came to that conclusion, how did they detect that animals felts pain, nothing conclusive to show how it detected pain. Also why use anaesthetic?

At long last??!!....Umpteen studies prove that ritual slaughter is the most humane way vs 1.. ONE.. that says otherwise??!! Way to stand up for science Manny Goldstein

This is the whole problem with your perception of 'Truth' and 'Fact' Farhad; you are extremely selective.

Truth is truth and Fact is fact, but where a Truth or a Fact dovetails into your beliefs you accept them, and where they oppose your beliefs, you dismiss and reject them.

There is more scientific evidence that stunning animals prior to slaughtering them is a far more reliable pain-free method than non-stunning ritualistic methods, but you vehemently refuse to even examine such evidence because it 'flies in the face' of what you have been taught is the truth.

I fear that your stance is through blinkered obstinacy, whereas mine is the 'result' of genuine research and deep contemplation on a mind which was absolutely 'open' to begin with.

Although I rely on extensive research and my own intelligence when forming my opinion Farhad, I am always prepared to change that opinion if new information surfaces, and I have done so a few times,though not often.

Anyone who is so rigid in their opinion that they refuse to modify it - even in in the face of overwhelming evidence which proves such an opinion to be wrong - do not make ideal parties to any type of compromise -- in any area.

As for: "the link does not work" - just copy and paste it into Google.

To close, I will reproduce an article on this very subject relating to a news report of undercover filming inside an Halal Slaughterhouse in Thirsk:

"Inside the halal house of horrors:


Sickening footage shows 'evil' abattoir staff 'taunting sheep before hacking them to pieces'

Slaughtermen caught on camera 'hacking and sawing' at animals' throats

Sheep filmed being kicked, with one worker standing on an animal's neck

Staff laughed as a sheep bled to death with spectacles painted on its face

'Horrifying abuse' captured by animal rights campaigners at halal abattoir

One worker has been sacked and another three have been suspended

The Food Standards Agency has launched an urgent investigation

RSCPA and British Veterinary Association condemn 'shocking' footage

100,000-strong BVA petition means slaughter will be debated in Commons

A worker at a halal abattoir has been sacked and three others suspended after being filmed breaking strict rules on slaughtering sheep.

The men could face prosecution for the ‘horrifying yet routine abuse’ captured by animal rights campaigners using hidden cameras.

Slaughtermen at the Bowood Lamb abattoir in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, are seen ‘hacking and sawing’ at animals’ throats in apparent contravention of Islamic practice.

The RSPCA slammed the 'absolutely shocking' footage amid renewed calls to ban halal slaughter, which is opposed by the British Veterinary Association and 100,000 people in an online petition".

[JoshBB]

kirklancaster,

The simple truth is that a huge majority of the people who oppose halal are not thinking in a way to 'care for animals', but to bash muslims yet again. If it was any other religion the outrage would not be there.

[smudgie]

The coverage on the news of the atrocity at Thirsk had me in tears this lunchtime.
I love Thirsk, I love the sheep in the fields around Thirsk, poor James Herriot wil be turning in his grave.
Such cruelty, those responsible should be jailed, never mnd them losing their licenses.

[kirklancaster]

kirklancaster,

The simple truth is that a huge majority of the people who oppose halal are not thinking in a way to 'care for animals', but to bash muslims yet again. If it was any other religion the outrage would not be there.

Animal lovers are animal lovers and mostly apolitical Josh, so really this issue is about unnecessary, and even deliberate, cruelty to defenseless animals and not about "Muslim' bashing". The protest is against all ritualistic slaughtering of animals - Halhal or Kosher, and the demands of the protesters are for the stunning of animals prior to slaughtering to be made legally compulsorily not for the banning of ritualistic slaughter per se.

The reason that Halhal - and not Kosher - is predominant in posts on here regarding this issue, is because Farhad stated the Muslim point of view in defense of Halhal, whereas no Jewish member has brought the Judaic point of view into the thread.

There is a vast difference between legitimate comment and 'Muslim bashing' and you must learn to appreciate that difference.

[DemolitionRed]

I believe any one of us with an ounce of compassion will feel distressed by the recent news about the abattoir in Thirsk, not because its about Halal slaughter but because they employ bored psychopaths in the killing rooms.

There is enough good documentation which proves, stunning an animal before death deems it unconscious and therefore unaware of the events that follow. If not stunned, then a dead bolt through the head is instant and painless. I've stood with a few horses that had to be shot and although its distressing for us because it appears to be such a violent end, its quick, its clean and the horse was totally unaware of what was coming.

The slitting of a throat is painful, slow and terrifying and for that reason we wouldn't allow a vet to do this to our pet dogs, cats or horses. Whilst I have to accept that both halal and kosher slaughter will go on, I would rather it was done here in Britain under strict guidelines than shipped out on the hoof for slaughter in third world countries.

[arista]

The coverage on the news of the atrocity at Thirsk had me in tears this lunchtime.
I love Thirsk, I love the sheep in the fields around Thirsk, poor James Herriot wil be turning in his grave.
Such cruelty, those responsible should be jailed, never mind them losing their licenses.


Yes at least they were Sacked

[kirklancaster]

I believe any one of us with an ounce of compassion will feel distressed by the recent news about the abattoir in Thirsk, not because its about Halal slaughter but because they employ bored psychopaths in the killing rooms.

There is enough good documentation which proves, stunning an animal before death deems it unconscious and therefore unaware of the events that follow. If not stunned, then a dead bolt through the head is instant and painless. I've stood with a few horses that had to be shot and although its distressing for us because it appears to be such a violent end, its quick, its clean and the horse was totally unaware of what was coming.

The slitting of a throat is painful, slow and terrifying and for that reason we wouldn't allow a vet to do this to our pet dogs, cats or horses. Whilst I have to accept that both halal and kosher slaughter will go on, I would rather it was done here in Britain under strict guidelines than shipped out on the hoof for slaughter in third world countries.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: What a superbly written post.

[DemolitionRed]

:clap1::clap1::clap1: What a superbly written post.

Thanks Kirk, I think you and I think very much alike.

[kirklancaster]

Thanks Kirk, I think you and I think very much alike.

I recognised as much myself Dem. I'm glad we do.

[Kizzy]

I believe any one of us with an ounce of compassion will feel distressed by the recent news about the abattoir in Thirsk, not because its about Halal slaughter but because they employ bored psychopaths in the killing rooms.

There is enough good documentation which proves, stunning an animal before death deems it unconscious and therefore unaware of the events that follow. If not stunned, then a dead bolt through the head is instant and painless. I've stood with a few horses that had to be shot and although its distressing for us because it appears to be such a violent end, its quick, its clean and the horse was totally unaware of what was coming.

The slitting of a throat is painful, slow and terrifying and for that reason we wouldn't allow a vet to do this to our pet dogs, cats or horses. Whilst I have to accept that both halal and kosher slaughter will go on, I would rather it was done here in Britain under strict guidelines than shipped out on the hoof for slaughter in third world countries.

That may be true, but in practice is this what happens? There is also good evidence that this is not always the case and that the voltage and the time in between the stun and the slaughter are important contributory factors, it would exacerbate suffering if the animal regained consciousness during the process.
As you say there are strict guidelines and what the expose in Thirsk shows is there is a risk in deregulating this industry and that is what is the big issue here not halal slaughter.

[Nedusa]

I think however we may try to sanitise and underplay the death of animals for food the simple fact remains that we eat animals (and enjoy the taste) so we should not get too high and mighty about how the animal is slaughtered.

If we really did not want to see any animal suffering then we should all be vegetarians and stop rearing animals only to kill them later and eat their flesh.

Double standards, hypocrisy..?? maybe but bottom line if we cared enough, actually really cared for these animals then we wouldn't eat them.




.

[Northern Monkey]

I was too busy yesterday to respond to your post, and I was preparing to do so this morning, when on the news came a report of undercover filming inside an Halal Slaughterhouse in Thirsk. I'll let a related article about it expound:

"Inside the halal house of horrors:


Sickening footage shows 'evil' abattoir staff 'taunting sheep before hacking them to pieces'

Slaughtermen caught on camera 'hacking and sawing' at animals' throats

Sheep filmed being kicked, with one worker standing on an animal's neck

Staff laughed as a sheep bled to death with spectacles painted on its face

'Horrifying abuse' captured by animal rights campaigners at halal abattoir

One worker has been sacked and another three have been suspended

The Food Standards Agency has launched an urgent investigation

RSCPA and British Veterinary Association condemn 'shocking' footage

100,000-strong BVA petition means slaughter will be debated in Commons

A worker at a halal abattoir has been sacked and three others suspended after being filmed breaking strict rules on slaughtering sheep.

The men could face prosecution for the ‘horrifying yet routine abuse’ captured by animal rights campaigners using hidden cameras.

Slaughtermen at the Bowood Lamb abattoir in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, are seen ‘hacking and sawing’ at animals’ throats in apparent contravention of Islamic practice.

The RSPCA slammed the 'absolutely shocking' footage amid renewed calls to ban halal slaughter, which is opposed by the British Veterinary Association and 100,000 people in an online petition".

When I was at school, as part of our English studies, we had 'Comprehension', where we had to read diverse types of literature - both fact and fiction - and then, in an 'exam' type setting, we had to write essays on what we had read, without the benefit of the source material. This was to prove that not only had we actually read what we were supposed to have read, but also that we fully understood what we had read.

I recommend such a practice to save 'egg on face'.Put me right off my Kebab.

[farhad]

This is the whole problem with your perception of 'Truth' and 'Fact' Farhad; you are extremely selective.

Truth is truth and Fact is fact, but where a Truth or a Fact dovetails into your beliefs you accept them, and where they oppose your beliefs, you dismiss and reject them.

There is more scientific evidence that stunning animals prior to slaughtering them is a far more reliable pain-free method than non-stunning ritualistic methods, but you vehemently refuse to even examine such evidence because it 'flies in the face' of what you have been taught is the truth.

I fear that your stance is through blinkered obstinacy, whereas mine is the 'result' of genuine research and deep contemplation on a mind which was absolutely 'open' to begin with.

Although I rely on extensive research and my own intelligence when forming my opinion Farhad, I am always prepared to change that opinion if new information surfaces, and I have done so a few times,though not often.

Anyone who is so rigid in their opinion that they refuse to modify it - even in in the face of overwhelming evidence which proves such an opinion to be wrong - do not make ideal parties to any type of compromise -- in any area.

As for: "the link does not work" - just copy and paste it into Google.

To close, I will reproduce an article on this very subject relating to a news report of undercover filming inside an Halal Slaughterhouse in Thirsk:

"Inside the halal house of horrors:


Sickening footage shows 'evil' abattoir staff 'taunting sheep before hacking them to pieces'

Slaughtermen caught on camera 'hacking and sawing' at animals' throats

Sheep filmed being kicked, with one worker standing on an animal's neck

Staff laughed as a sheep bled to death with spectacles painted on its face

'Horrifying abuse' captured by animal rights campaigners at halal abattoir

One worker has been sacked and another three have been suspended

The Food Standards Agency has launched an urgent investigation

RSCPA and British Veterinary Association condemn 'shocking' footage

100,000-strong BVA petition means slaughter will be debated in Commons

A worker at a halal abattoir has been sacked and three others suspended after being filmed breaking strict rules on slaughtering sheep.

The men could face prosecution for the ‘horrifying yet routine abuse’ captured by animal rights campaigners using hidden cameras.

Slaughtermen at the Bowood Lamb abattoir in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, are seen ‘hacking and sawing’ at animals’ throats in apparent contravention of Islamic practice.

The RSPCA slammed the 'absolutely shocking' footage amid renewed calls to ban halal slaughter, which is opposed by the British Veterinary Association and 100,000 people in an online petition".

As pointed out to you and another poster that the supposed conclusive research carried out is rather obscure, and it doesn't the method of their study and how they detected the pain. The research previously I mentioned was done by a leading scientists in that field, using electroencephalogram to observe how the brain functions after the slaughter. Many of notable scientist since 1927 have done their investigation into this topic and all of them seem to agree with one another, and suddenly this obscure Australian research says otherwise.

[Kazanne]

Yes just last week there was footage (Sunday Mirror)of a slaughterhouse being cruel in their treatment of animals,utterly barbaric,needless cruelty,people need to stand up to such things,otherwise it will go on,while vile humans inhabit the planet.

[user104658]

Yes just last week there was footage (Sunday Mirror)of a shaughterhouse being cruel in their treatment of animals,utterly barbaric,needless cruelty,people need to stand up to such things,otherwise it will go on,while vile humans inhabit the planet.
I think unfortunately it has always gone one and will always go on I think, people in general can be horrendously cruel. Not that that's an excuse - obviously when it is uncovered the people involved should be arrested and prosecuted (and properly, usually animal cruelty charges are very light).

I remember seeing g a video a few years ago that was really quite traumatic. People in a slaughterhouse picking up piglets by the ankles and slamming them repeatedly into a concrete floor. Really horrible stuff. And, I guess, shows that it goes on in "normal" slaughterhouses too, as halal / kosher slaughter obviously doesn't include pigs.