WW3 on the way : America wants to Arm Ukraine

[arista]

So Russia Vs America
while in Ukraine


Germany is well against that very dangerous move.
How Very Wise of them.

http://news.sky.com/story/1424352/obama-russia-cannot-act-behind-barrel-of-gun


Today the Germans had talks in Washington DC


http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/12/02/p19865fkfmvut8nmrjo1fj61q134/big.jpg
John Kerry in his visit to Nato

[Nedusa]

Stupid, stupid , stupid stupid US.... They are turning Ukraine into a war zone and they won't stop until they engage Russia... The most heavily nuclear armed country in the world.

Unbelievable really ... It's like a staring contest , see who blinks first




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[DemolitionRed]

Arista, your link doesn't work.


There are fundamentally two ways this can go; you could side with the Germans and not offer any assistance to the Ukrainians, therefore allowing the Russians to take over the Ukraine and hope they stop at that or you can arm the Ukrainian army so that they have a fighting chance against the Russians, where you will end up with all out war in the Ukraine. The Russians may step down but then again it may flare up into world war III.

What you do need to remember, or perhaps remind yourself of is Chamberlain who flew off to visit Hitler in 1939 to obtain his promise that he would not invade the rest of Europe. Now we have Angela Merkel meeting Putin on Wednesday in Russia to obtain his promise that he won't invade the rest of Europe if we let him have Ukraine.

The west are hoping that Russia will lose its nerve and back down from the Ukraine. I think its a very risky game to play and this could very easily escalate into world war. I suppose in the game of odds, this game of chicken might prompt the Russians to back down. Then again, the Russians might just call our bluff. The last time we were this close to World War III was in 1962 with the Cuban crisis.

Over the last week world interest has really peeked but this crisis has been brewing for over a year.

[DemolitionRed]

Stupid, stupid , stupid stupid US.... They are turning Ukraine into a war zone and they won't stop until they engage Russia... The most heavily nuclear armed country in the world.

Unbelievable really ... It's like a staring contest , see who blinks first




.

The Ukraine has been a war zone for a year. Fatalities are around 6,000. Eastern Ukraine is a bombed out war zone with most people trying to get out and head to Kiev.

The Russians are hoping that, rather than arming the Ukrainians and guaranteeing a war, we will step back, out of fear and let them do what they want to do. We have spent a year trying to placate them with ceasefire agreements, financial deals and punitive measures against some of their diplomats. During that time many thousands of people have been killed.

Putin is like a parasite who preys on the weak. Today, whilst the west were meeting to discuss their measures against Russia, Putin flew to Egypt to meet with the Egyptian PM and discuss Russian aid to the Egyptians. He's looking at vulnerable countries around Europe and how he can get in their to extend his power.

[Livia]

The home of Russia's Black Sea Fleet is at Sevastopol in Crimea. Even though it's part of Ukraine, Russians have patrolled the streets of Sevastopol for over 200 years. It's strategically important for Russia both defensively and offensively. Russian presence in Crimea makes Ukraine hard to defend because Russia hold them on three fronts and I can't see Russia giving up its grip on it easily.

[user104658]

Arista, your link doesn't work.


There are fundamentally two ways this can go; you could side with the Germans and not offer any assistance to the Ukrainians, therefore allowing the Russians to take over the Ukraine and hope they stop at that or you can arm the Ukrainian army so that they have a fighting chance against the Russians, where you will end up with all out war in the Ukraine. The Russians may step down but then again it may flare up into world war III.

What you do need to remember, or perhaps remind yourself of is Chamberlain who flew off to visit Hitler in 1939 to obtain his promise that he would not invade the rest of Europe. Now we have Angela Merkel meeting Putin on Wednesday in Russia to obtain his promise that he won't invade the rest of Europe if we let him have Ukraine.

The west are hoping that Russia will lose its nerve and back down from the Ukraine. I think its a very risky game to play and this could very easily escalate into world war. I suppose in the game of odds, this game of chicken might prompt the Russians to back down. Then again, the Russians might just call our bluff. The last time we were this close to World War III was in 1962 with the Cuban crisis.

Over the last week world interest has really peeked but this crisis has been brewing for over a year.

And yet ask the average man in the street who is not politically engaged, and he has NO IDEA that any of this has been going on. Probably still doesn't have any idea that there are any Cold War tensions at all. Why? Because he's had his gaze firmly (and deliberately) fixed on the Middle East / terrorist attacks. A huge and deliberate political and media game of distraction that has people ranting and raving about Islam and isolated terrorism incidents with low casualty levels, all the while ignorant to the superpowers that are clashing under their very noses. It's terrifying.

[Livia]

And yet ask the average man in the street who is not politically engaged, and he has NO IDEA that any of this has been going on. Probably still doesn't have any idea that there are any Cold War tensions at all. Why? Because he's had his gaze firmly (and deliberately) fixed on the Middle East / terrorist attacks. A huge and deliberate political and media game of distraction that has people ranting and raving about Islam and isolated terrorism incidents with low casualty levels, all the while ignorant to the superpowers that are clashing under their very noses. It's terrifying.

I think the average man in the street is far more aware than you think and more than capable of absorbing what's going on in the world.

[DemolitionRed]

And yet ask the average man in the street who is not politically engaged, and he has NO IDEA that any of this has been going on. Probably still doesn't have any idea that there are any Cold War tensions at all. Why? Because he's had his gaze firmly (and deliberately) fixed on the Middle East / terrorist attacks. A huge and deliberate political and media game of distraction that has people ranting and raving about Islam and isolated terrorism incidents with low casualty levels, all the while ignorant to the superpowers that are clashing under their very noses. It's terrifying.

In the last ten days my husbands blog, which has been a running comentary on the conflicts in the UKraine over the last twelve months, typically had around 500 viewers a day. A week ago that number went up to 5000 viewers a day.

I agree, the government has been waving shiny objects in our peripheral vision to take our eye away from the goings on in the Ukraine.

[user104658]

I think the average man in the street is far more aware than you think and more than capable of absorbing what's going on in the world.

I genuinely don't think they are. I work in a fairly "social" setting full of Average Joes and I hear multiple discussions about immigration / terrorism / the middle east every single day. I have yet to hear one person mention Ukraine or Russia. Literally, not one. Ever.

Likewise, endless FB status updates about every terrorist incident. Unusual to see any at all mention these other massive world issues.

I suspect, Livia, that you are simply lucky enough to mainly be around people who are fairly intelligent and world-aware. This is not the average man on the street. The average man on the street is almost entirely ignorant to anything that wasn't on the front page of "The Sun".

[Livia]

I genuinely don't think they are. I work in a fairly "social" setting full of Average Joes and I hear multiple discussions about immigration / terrorism / the middle east every single day. I have yet to hear one person mention Ukraine or Russia. Literally, not one. Ever.

Likewise, endless FB status updates about every terrorist incident. Unusual to see any at all mention these other massive world issues.

I suspect, Livia, that you are simply lucky enough to mainly be around people who are fairly intelligent and world-aware. This is not the average man on the street. The average man on the street is almost entirely ignorant to anything that wasn't on the front page of "The Sun".

I don't entirely agree with you, but it's your opinion and I respect that.

[Iceman]

Without knowing too much on the subject I always feel quite tense knowing these two countries have stocks of smallpox. It's not as relevant to this thread just something I think about from time to time.

[DemolitionRed]

Without knowing too much on the subject I always feel quite tense knowing these two countries have stocks of smallpox. It's not as relevant to this thread just something I think about from time to time.

One thing for sure; if this turns into an East/West war, we won't need to turn on our TV to see it.

[arista]

Arista, your link doesn't work.


There are fundamentally two ways this can go; you could side with the Germans and not offer any assistance to the Ukrainians, therefore allowing the Russians to take over the Ukraine and hope they stop at that or you can arm the Ukrainian army so that they have a fighting chance against the Russians, where you will end up with all out war in the Ukraine. The Russians may step down but then again it may flare up into world war III.

What you do need to remember, or perhaps remind yourself of is Chamberlain who flew off to visit Hitler in 1939 to obtain his promise that he would not invade the rest of Europe. Now we have Angela Merkel meeting Putin on Wednesday in Russia to obtain his promise that he won't invade the rest of Europe if we let him have Ukraine.

The west are hoping that Russia will lose its nerve and back down from the Ukraine. I think its a very risky game to play and this could very easily escalate into world war. I suppose in the game of odds, this game of chicken might prompt the Russians to back down. Then again, the Russians might just call our bluff. The last time we were this close to World War III was in 1962 with the Cuban crisis.

Over the last week world interest has really peeked but this crisis has been brewing for over a year.


http://news.sky.com/story/1424352/obama-russia-cannot-act-behind-barrel-of-gun

Sorry about the other link

[MTVN]

The Ukraine crisis has been heavily reported on overall and I think people are well aware of it, it was all over the news when Yanukovych was first ousted, when Crimea was annexed and when East Ukraine descended into civil war particularly with the shooting down of MH17. It's slipped out of the public eye somewhat in recent months because the conflict reached a bit of a stalemate, neither side making any major advances and with several peace proposals attempted but never lasting. And in those months of stalemate its fair to say it has been overshadowed by the rise of IS and attacks in the Western world. As recent events have shown though the Ukraine crisis was never lurking too far in the background.

I don't agree with DemolitionRed I'm afraid. Putin is belligerent, he is a proud man, he will not be dictated to, but he does not want a war and I don't believe he wants to take over the whole of Ukraine. Russia is weak right now, they could ill afford it and I really don't buy the notion of Russia as this red menace still desperate to swallow up Eastern Europe. If Putin preys on vulnerable nations then what has the West done ever since the Cold War with NATO taking more and more ex-Soviet countries under its wing while maintaining a hostile position against Russia? This is what Paddy Ashdown wrote on the situation today, I actually disagree with much of his article but do agree with this:

The West lost the greatest strategic opportunity of recent times when we reacted to the collapse of the Soviet Union, not with a long term plan to bring Russia in from the cold, but by treating Russia to a blast of Washington triumphalism and superiority. Instead of opening the doors to a strategic partnership to Moscow, we sent young men still wet behind the ears from Harvard business school to privatize their industries, and teach them the Western way of doing things. The result was a bonanza of corruption, the humiliation of the Yeltsin years and a clumsy attempt to enlarge our “Cold war victory” by seeking to expand NATO and Europe right up to the Russian border. There was always going to be a consequence of this folly and its name is Vladimir Putin.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/russias-growing-threat-the-west-faces-a-very-dangerous-crisis--and-its-in-part-of-our-own-making-10032388.html

Truth is that Ukraine has always been pretty fertile for tensions like these and both the West and Russia have played a part in their explosion. Making out that Russia's involvement is the cause of all ill in the country ignores the legitimate grievances of a lot of eastern Ukraine, it ignores the questionable way in which Yanukovych was first toppled, and it ignores that the Ukraine government has thought nothing of shelling civilian areas without even a peep of condemnation from the West. In basically every other country in the world governments in power are urged to enter into dialogue with opposition groups, in Ukraine its just been a case of crush them by any means possible, and we'll even give you the weapons to do it.

[Nedusa]

The Ukraine has been a war zone for a year. Fatalities are around 6,000. Eastern Ukraine is a bombed out war zone with most people trying to get out and head to Kiev.

The Russians are hoping that, rather than arming the Ukrainians and guaranteeing a war, we will step back, out of fear and let them do what they want to do. We have spent a year trying to placate them with ceasefire agreements, financial deals and punitive measures against some of their diplomats. During that time many thousands of people have been killed.

Putin is like a parasite who preys on the weak. Today, whilst the west were meeting to discuss their measures against Russia, Putin flew to Egypt to meet with the Egyptian PM and discuss Russian aid to the Egyptians. He's looking at vulnerable countries around Europe and how he can get in their to extend his power.

Interesting post......you say Eastern Ukraine is a bombed out place and that over 5,000 Ukranians have died. So who do you think has killed all these Ukranians...? Russian troops ? But surely they are there to protect the Russian speaking Ukranians who have been systematically bombed to smithereens by their fellow countrymen because they won't cow down and surrender to the new western manipulated fascist government put into power after the scandalous so called revolution last year where the democratically elected leader of Ukraine was ran out of town by nothing short of a western planned coup d'état.

Russia saw this coming as it was always about getting the new Ukranian govt to force Russia to give up its strategically important naval bases in the Crimea.

Putin the parasite as you call him had the foresight to see his only option was to try and find a way to change the govt in the Crimea and this is what happened. Unfortunately the East of the Ukraine is now burning , certain factions in the US are beyond pissed and will actually consider trying to provoke all out war in the east of Ukraine.

Putin of course is playing Europe against the U.S. on this and is trying to sue for peace in the area, he knows if left to their own devices the Ukraine will always eventually stay a natural ally to Russia .

This whole contrived event in which thousands of innocent Ukrainians have perished is one big geopolitical gamble by the U.S. to try and further NATO 's ambitions in Eastern Europe .

Shame on the U.S for playing political games that cost innocent people their lives.

I suppose it's par for the course now with U.S they start wars with impunity only this time I think a serious escalation could easily ensue as Russia is no Libya or Iraq...

I hope cooler heads prevail in the coming months.





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[DemolitionRed]

Ukraine was politically none aligned. That is to say, like Switzerland it was neutral. It didn't have an army; it had a small home defence force and basically it sort to become a trading partner to other countries around the world and to prosper. However, to do this, it needed investment, which was offered by Europe and also Russia. The Ukrainian people wanted to accept Europes offer of support; the Ukrainian government went against those wishes and accepted the Russians offer. This was so unpopular it led to the collapse of the Ukrainian government in 2014.

At the same moment that the Ukrainian government collapsed, Russia invaded Crimea. The already destabilized Ukrainian leadership chose to capitulate and gave up Crimea to the Russians. When, soon after, a new government was in place and Russia started to threaten the Eastern borders of the Ukraine. The Ukrainian government gave up its none aligned status and asked Nato for support. Nato has so far not provided that support.

Nedusa, I can't argue with your opinion but its not an opinion that has been neutrally reported. You are supporting the Russian argument, I'm not and so I can't negotiate a resolution with you because our views are so divergent. This discussion reflects what is happening in the real world and we both know that thousands of people are dying because they aren't arguing via keyboards but with machine guns and tanks. If we can't reach an agreement, how can we expect world leaders to reach an agreement.

The horrifying truth is, they may not be able to reach an agreement and this may descend into an all out war.

[Nedusa]

Ukraine was politically none aligned. That is to say, like Switzerland it was neutral. It didn't have an army; it had a small home defence force and basically it sort to become a trading partner to other countries around the world and to prosper. However, to do this, it needed investment, which was offered by Europe and also Russia. The Ukrainian people wanted to accept Europes offer of support; the Ukrainian government went against those wishes and accepted the Russians offer. This was so unpopular it led to the collapse of the Ukrainian government in 2014.

At the same moment that the Ukrainian government collapsed, Russia invaded Crimea. The already destabilized Ukrainian leadership chose to capitulate and gave up Crimea to the Russians. When, soon after, a new government was in place and Russia started to threaten the Eastern borders of the Ukraine. The Ukrainian government gave up its none aligned status and asked Nato for support. Nato has so far not provided that support.

Nedusa, I can't argue with your opinion but its not an opinion that has been neutrally reported. You are supporting the Russian argument, I'm not and so I can't negotiate a resolution with you because our views are so divergent. This discussion reflects what is happening in the real world and we both know that thousands of people are dying because they aren't arguing via keyboards but with machine guns and tanks. If we can't reach an agreement, how can we expect world leaders to reach an agreement.

The horrifying truth is, they may not be able to reach an agreement and this may descend into an all out war.

I'm not anti west per se but do think the West need to shoulder more of the blame than Russia for this mess.

Go back 18 months and look closely at the sequence of events that played out , take your news from a variety of sources and a picture does start to appear in which certain elements in the US have deliberately inflamed this whole situation in Ukraine with I think control of Crimea as the real goal.

The west have failed in this bid and they are mad as hell and are trying to win the propaganda war having failed to actually win in Ukraine itself.

Now they are looking to escalate again to the next level by supplying lethal arms so even more innocent Ukrainians can now be killed.

Utterly disgraceful behaviour, the UK and Europe need to tell the U.S. in plain speak to back off and mind their own business.

In my opinion the U.S. is politically out of control and will eventually sooner rather than later force other world powers into military confrontation.

Why are they doing this ? Well all declining superpowers eventually try and play all the cards in their hand.

But the U.S. is rapidly becoming a busted flush...!!!





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[Northern Monkey]

Certainly a very scary situation.

I can see why Russia wants to protect its assets in Crimea but to send its troops out of its bases in Crimea and annex the area was an aggressive move,They could have just took a defensive position at their bases not take over airports,Ukrainian military bases,Government buildings and force Crimea into an illegal election in which there was only one choice as to who to vote.Pure bully tactics.

Then menacingley amassing 40,000 Russian troops onto the Eastern border and instigating an uprising and civil war in Eastern Ukraine whilst sending advanced anti aircraft launchers,guns and other military hardware to the 'rebels' and Putin blatently lying about it.

Making so called peace deals with the Ukrainian government while at the very same time arming the oposition and covertly sending Russian troops in to fight.

The problem is that Putin will not listen and something will eventually have to be done about it.If the west leave Russia to do what it wants in Ukraine then who knows where he will stop.Poland?Latvia?

Russia need to be stopped somehow,Hopefully with sanctions and talks but Putin is as stubborn as a mule and i can't see him backing down.

[bots]

As someone else stated Crimea is strategically important to Russia. The gesturing by Putin is to secure that area for Russia. Ukraine has been used as a toy by both the East and the West, the USA has been trying to subvert politics there for years.

The unfortunates in this are the Ukrainian people, they are ****ed whatever the outcome.

[Nedusa]

Certainly a very scary situation.

I can see why Russia wants to protect its assets in Crimea but to send its troops out of its bases in Crimea and annex the area was an aggressive move,They could have just took a defensive position at their bases not take over airports,Ukrainian military bases,Government buildings and force Crimea into an illegal election in which there was only one choice as to who to vote.Pure bully tactics.

Then menacingley amassing 40,000 Russian troops onto the Eastern border and instigating an uprising and civil war in Eastern Ukraine whilst sending advanced anti aircraft launchers,guns and other military hardware to the 'rebels' and Putin blatently lying about it.

Making so called peace deals with the Ukrainian government while at the very same time arming the oposition and covertly sending Russian troops in to fight.

The problem is that Putin will not listen and something will eventually have to be done about it.If the west leave Russia to do what it wants in Ukraine then who knows where he will stop.Poland?Latvia?

Russia need to be stopped somehow,Hopefully with sanctions and talks but Putin is as stubborn as a mule and i can't see him backing down.

It actually amazes me how people can make posts which include the phrase "Russia needs to be stopped".....???

Stopped from what, protecting their borders against a relentless aggressive eastwards moving NATO perhaps .

Russia has been forced to respond to the events of the past 18 months whilst being painted as the aggressor.

It is not , it is actually quite a peaceful Country, a wartime longstanding ally without who's help would have resulted in Britain losing both first and second world wars.

No the only aggressive, warmongering country I can see at the moment is the one that allegedly purports to stand for freedom and democracy.

Freedom and democracy as long as you do what we say and use our currency.

This is the country that is only 200 years old and has been involved in 10 major wars. The country that spends billions attacking and bombing countries in order to save them. This is the pariah state not Russia.

People need to wake up and take their blinkers off and insist their govt stop giving unconditional support to this playground bully.




.

[user104658]

It actually amazes me how people can make posts which include the phrase "Russia needs to be stopped".....???

Stopped from what, protecting their borders against a relentless aggressive eastwards moving NATO perhaps .

Russia has been forced to respond to the events of the past 18 months whilst being painted as the aggressor.

It is not , it is actually quite a peaceful Country, a wartime longstanding ally without who's help would have resulted in Britain losing both first and second world wars.

No the only aggressive, warmongering country I can see at the moment is the one that allegedly purports to stand for freedom and democracy.

Freedom and democracy as long as you do what we say and use our currency.

This is the country that is only 200 years old and has been involved in 10 major wars. The country that spends billions attacking and bombing countries in order to save them. This is the pariah state not Russia.

People need to wake up and take their blinkers off and insist their govt stop giving unconditional support to this playground bully.




.

I have a genuine question Nedusa - not intended to be inflammatory... but, if you can see and are aware of all of this re: the US of A (and I'm not saying you're wrong) then I find it difficult to understand your stance when it comes to extremism / terrorism. It is ALL tied into exactly this warmongering that you're talking about here. Not just as a distraction technique, but the Gulf has always involved US / Russian tensions somewhere in the mix, these two juggernauts going at it with the Middle East sandwiched in the middle played a HUGE role in destabilizing the region and in allowing terrorist organizations to grow (not to mention, arming them). It's also a huge contributing factor in the angry "anti-west" sentiment that is used to twist young minds and create terrorists. But you never mention any of these issues - the huge, global issues that have been caused or at least hugely aggravated by a power-hungry United States - when posting in the various ISIS / terrorism threads. I'm just wondering why that is? Do you just genuinely keep the two issues separate?

[Nedusa]

I have a genuine question Nedusa - not intended to be inflammatory... but, if you can see and are aware of all of this re: the US of A (and I'm not saying you're wrong) then I find it difficult to understand your stance when it comes to extremism / terrorism. It is ALL tied into exactly this warmongering that you're talking about here. Not just as a distraction technique, but the Gulf has always involved US / Russian tensions somewhere in the mix, these two juggernauts going at it with the Middle East sandwiched in the middle played a HUGE role in destabilizing the region and in allowing terrorist organizations to grow (not to mention, arming them). It's also a huge contributing factor in the angry "anti-west" sentiment that is used to twist young minds and create terrorists. But you never mention any of these issues - the huge, global issues that have been caused or at least hugely aggravated by a power-hungry United States - when posting in the various ISIS / terrorism threads. I'm just wondering why that is? Do you just genuinely keep the two issues separate?

I actually do T.S because to try and intertwine these would produce so many grey areas that trying to debate them in forums like these would become virtually impossible.

I appreciate geopolitics and terrorism are connected but we are not really privy to what really goes on behind the scenes.

But coming back to this situation with Ukraine I honestly believe the US and Russia should stand together when fighting this extremist Muslim terrorist threat, not one trying desperately to start a new Cold War with the other.

Really hope the US backs off and Russia removes all it's troops/weapons from Ukraine also.


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[MTVN]

IMO the obvious solution is to allow eastern Ukraine a sizeable degree of autonomy in a federalised Ukraine but Kiev always rejected this, unwilling to lose any centralised control and only happy to have the rebels and their aims crushed. This is not a Ukrainian people vs Russia conflict, it is not USA vs Russia, and neither should be using Ukraine as a scene for their proxy war. It is fundamentally a civil conflict between two different outlooks in Ukraine that are becoming ever harder to reconcile the more that people remain entrenched in a cold war mindset.

[Northern Monkey]

IMO the obvious solution is to allow eastern Ukraine a sizeable degree of autonomy in a federalised Ukraine but Kiev always rejected this, unwilling to lose any centralised control and only happy to have the rebels and their aims crushed. This is not a Ukrainian people vs Russia conflict, it is not USA vs Russia, and neither should be using Ukraine as a scene for their proxy war. It is fundamentally a civil conflict between two different outlooks in Ukraine that are becoming ever harder to reconcile the more that people remain entrenched in a cold war mindset.

I totally agree.

[Northern Monkey]

It actually amazes me how people can make posts which include the phrase "Russia needs to be stopped".....???

Stopped from what, protecting their borders against a relentless aggressive eastwards moving NATO perhaps .

Russia has been forced to respond to the events of the past 18 months whilst being painted as the aggressor.

It is not , it is actually quite a peaceful Country, a wartime longstanding ally without who's help would have resulted in Britain losing both first and second world wars.

No the only aggressive, warmongering country I can see at the moment is the one that allegedly purports to stand for freedom and democracy.

Freedom and democracy as long as you do what we say and use our currency.

This is the country that is only 200 years old and has been involved in 10 major wars. The country that spends billions attacking and bombing countries in order to save them. This is the pariah state not Russia.

People need to wake up and take their blinkers off and insist their govt stop giving unconditional support to this playground bully.




.Now i'm not really a follower of the YouTube conspiracy theories and RT propaganda of the west orchestrating the Ukraine revolution,Although i don't discount the fact that it is possible.
Also yes i agree that the US was wrong in its Middle East involvement regarding Iraq.
The US are not the paragon of moral high ground in the world and have done alot of shady stuff in world.
However the US are not the ones invading a European country on our back door.Saying the US is bad does'nt automatically make Russia good.Russia has used alot of underhand tactics and blatently lied about them.However bad America is,They are'nt the immediate threat in Europe at the moment,More so the Middle East which yes does have a knock on effect in the world and i am not a USA!USA! flag waver.I believe America are dangerous but not as dangerous to us as Russia at this time.

[Livia]

The Ukraine crisis has been heavily reported on overall and I think people are well aware of it, it was all over the news when Yanukovych was first ousted, when Crimea was annexed and when East Ukraine descended into civil war particularly with the shooting down of MH17. It's slipped out of the public eye somewhat in recent months because the conflict reached a bit of a stalemate, neither side making any major advances and with several peace proposals attempted but never lasting. And in those months of stalemate its fair to say it has been overshadowed by the rise of IS and attacks in the Western world. As recent events have shown though the Ukraine crisis was never lurking too far in the background.

I don't agree with DemolitionRed I'm afraid. Putin is belligerent, he is a proud man, he will not be dictated to, but he does not want a war and I don't believe he wants to take over the whole of Ukraine. Russia is weak right now, they could ill afford it and I really don't buy the notion of Russia as this red menace still desperate to swallow up Eastern Europe. If Putin preys on vulnerable nations then what has the West done ever since the Cold War with NATO taking more and more ex-Soviet countries under its wing while maintaining a hostile position against Russia? This is what Paddy Ashdown wrote on the situation today, I actually disagree with much of his article but do agree with this:



Truth is that Ukraine has always been pretty fertile for tensions like these and both the West and Russia have played a part in their explosion. Making out that Russia's involvement is the cause of all ill in the country ignores the legitimate grievances of a lot of eastern Ukraine, it ignores the questionable way in which Yanukovych was first toppled, and it ignores that the Ukraine government has thought nothing of shelling civilian areas without even a peep of condemnation from the West. In basically every other country in the world governments in power are urged to enter into dialogue with opposition groups, in Ukraine its just been a case of crush them by any means possible, and we'll even give you the weapons to do it.

Post of the week for me.

[Nedusa]

Now i'm not really a follower of the YouTube conspiracy theories and RT propaganda of the west orchestrating the Ukraine revolution,Although i don't discount the fact that it is possible.
Also yes i agree that the US was wrong in its Middle East involvement regarding Iraq.
The US are not the paragon of moral high ground in the world and have done alot of shady stuff in world.
However the US are not the ones invading a European country on our back door.Saying the US is bad does'nt automatically make Russia good.Russia has used alot of underhand tactics and blatently lied about them.However bad America is,They are'nt the immediate threat in Europe at the moment,More so the Middle East which yes does have a knock on effect in the world and i am not a USA!USA! flag waver.I believe America are dangerous but not as dangerous to us as Russia at this time.

Please please tell me how Russia is a threat to you... ...??

How many times have they invaded Britain , exactly ... They are no threat , they just want to be left to develop their country and utilise their resources.

They are only a threat when they are constantly prodded and probed by our friends across the water who think they have a God given right to rule the whole flipping planet.

They are also a threat when they decide to sell oil and gas in currencies other than US dollars, a bit like the other countries who tried to do this eg Iraq,Libya, Afghanistan, Syria they all seem to have found themselves bombed invaded and their leaders overthrown.

Anyone see a pattern emerging.... Probably half the reason Iran is under such scrutiny because it wants to set up an oil bourse that doesn't trade exclusively in USD .

Once China depegs it's currency from the USD it too will be a target for aggressive US sanctions / actions.

Bottom line is that the U.S. are only surviving by virtue of the fact that the rest of the world buys their debt by using the USD as the world's reserve currency. Once that goes the US will implode so trust me when I say that they will do absolutely anything and everything they can to maintain the status quo.

Question- in times of global tension where does all the money go where is it stored ?
Ans - in US Dollars






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[Northern Monkey]

Please please tell me how Russia is a threat to you... ...??

How many times have they invaded Britain , exactly ... They are no threat , they just want to be left to develop their country and utilise their resources.

They are only a threat when they are constantly prodded and probed by our friends across the water who think they have a God given right to rule the whole flipping planet.

They are also a threat when they decide to sell oil and gas in currencies other than US dollars, a bit like the other countries who tried to do this eg Iraq,Libya, Afghanistan, Syria they all seem to have found themselves bombed invaded and their leaders overthrown.

Anyone see a pattern emerging.... Probably half the reason Iran is under such scrutiny because it wants to set up an oil bourse that doesn't trade exclusively in USD .

Once China depegs it's currency from the USD it too will be a target for aggressive US sanctions / actions.

Bottom line is that the U.S. are only surviving by virtue of the fact that the rest of the world buys their debt by using the USD as the world's reserve currency. Once that goes the US will implode so trust me when I say that they will do absolutely anything and everything they can to maintain the status quo.

Question- in times of global tension where does all the money go where is it stored ?
Ans - in US Dollars






.
I do agree with majority of your post regarding oil currency and have seen many programmes on this.But as i said none of this makes Russias arrogant invasion of a European country any better.It is too bold of a card to play and has ramped up East/West tensions beyond anything seen since the Cold War.Putin can't just go and Annex a European country by force and yes he does have influence over the rebels and alot of them are Russian special forces along with advanced AA weaponary which the Eastern Ukrainians would not have access to.

So far the West has'nt retaliated but Putin did'nt stop at Crimea,He is expanding his aggression further and further into Ukraine and if is left unhindered who knows where he will stop.

If he pushes further and further west and heads for Kiev which is not that far fetched as his momentum grows then the fighting will be fierce and America and very likely Britain,Poland,Germany etc will send troops in and it will be the start of a world disaster which could very easily escalate into a serious conflict bigger than any seen so far.So yes Russia is a threat to all of us.It played to strong a hand and was uncalled for.If the Ukrainian people want to be part of the EU or even Nato then that is up to them.Russias bully tactics should not be tolerated.I do believe that if the Eastern Ukraine wants to become autonamous then they should have a right to vote on that WITHOUT Russia influencing the vote with troops as they did in Crimea but if Russia gets greedy and pushes toward Kiev then we are all in trouble.

[Nedusa]

I do agree with majority of your post regarding oil currency and have seen many programmes on this.But as i said none of this makes Russias arrogant invasion of a European country any better.It is too bold of a card to play and has ramped up East/West tensions beyond anything seen since the Cold War.Putin can't just go and Annex a European country by force and yes he does have influence over the rebels and alot of them are Russian special forces along with advanced AA weaponary which the Eastern Ukrainians would not have access to.

So far the West has'nt retaliated but Putin did'nt stop at Crimea,He is expanding his aggression further and further into Ukraine and if is left unhindered who knows where he will stop.

If he pushes further and further west and heads for Kiev which is not that far fetched as his momentum grows then the fighting will be fierce and America and very likely Britain,Poland,Germany etc will send troops in and it will be the start of a world disaster which could very easily escalate into a serious conflict bigger than any seen so far.So yes Russia is a threat to all of us.It played to strong a hand and was uncalled for.If the Ukrainian people want to be part of the EU or even Nato then that is up to them.Russias bully tactics should not be tolerated.I do believe that if the Eastern Ukraine wants to become autonamous then they should have a right to vote on that WITHOUT Russia influencing the vote with troops as they did in Crimea but if Russia gets greedy and pushes toward Kiev then we are all in trouble.

First of all.... Why oh why would Russia want to invade Ukraine and go marching on to Kiev, even Putin isn't that stupid.

Besides Ukraine is a bankrupt country and is heading towards failed state status, no Russia doesn't need to invade the Ukraine it will always be a major partner to ukraine , a protector and a bank ready to give ukraine the money it needs with less strings attached than the IMF or world bank.

Do some research into what US companies have set up in Ukraine, massive agri industries like Monsanto ready to grow even more GM crops at the expense of Ukraine's already established agricultural industries.

By setting up this current puppet govt with its masters in Washington the Ukrainian people East and west have been sold a lie and their country is now a battlefield in proxy Cold War.

Such a shame that the rest of the world did not condemn the illegal revolution in Ukraine in 2013.

Look at where we are now, all totally unnecessary.

I hope the European peace initiative works and the fighting and killing stops but I doubt it as the US is furious Putin took Crimea to protect its naval bases in Sevastopol when really the big payback for the US was supposed to be the new Ukrainian govt terminating the leases for these bases and forcing Russia into a corner.

But as usual President Putin out manoeuvred the US as he thinks two or three moves ahead.

As someone once said the US president plays draughts while the Russian president plays chess.

Don't be fooled the US has created this whole crisis for its own geopolitical agenda , I just wish more innocent people didn't have to die in the crossfire.





.

[DemolitionRed]

The Crimea has been part of the Ukraine since 1954 but like the rest of the Ukraine and all the countries bordering Russian territory, it strongly depends on Russia for gas (amongst other things), Russia is known as a petro-state and the Ukraine is its lapdog.

In more recent years the Ukraine has been trying to break away from that dependency by building their own gas terminals for both themselves and with the intention of selling that gas to a viable market. Russia was, for obvious reasons, not prepared to lend money on this project but the US and the EU were. The Ukraine is a big country and its stability does affect the stability of Euope as a whole. Free trade agreement insured that countries stability and up until early last year the Ukraine believed they were heading towards that much needed signature.

Why do we want to get into a proxy war with Russia? the answer is, we don't, we really don't. This isn't about triumphalism and that's why we only started to implement sanctions after endless diplomatic talks with Moscow. The west very much stood back because they wanted the Ukraine to determine their own destiny; we wanted a peaceful resolution. We only started to up our game after the ceasefire in September wasn't honoured. I'll add to that... there is so much information from both Washington and Moscow about this ceasefire; nobody really knows who threw the first stone.

What we do know is, Russia started to cross borders into the Ukraine with tanks and heavy rocket launchers. We also know that Russian artillery has been fired across the borders and that Russian backed rebels are being armed with rifles and anti-tank weapons. This is a fratricide war but only one side are armed. Why shound the west not back those who need to fight the Russian separatists? We were already involved in Negotiations with the Ukraine before this upheaval. So far, the west has only sent emergency aid for the 1.5 million displaced Ukrainians. Its shown and still shows no eagerness to to pour gasoline onto an open fire like the Russians appear to be doing.

[Nedusa]

Perhaps dividing the Country is the only real solution, or having a loose collecton of autonomous states like a Federal Republic.

Clearly the majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians in the East do not want to be ruled by this new Govt in the West (whose first law was to ban the use of Russian language) and I would guess the vast majority of the western Ukrainian population would prefer to look to Europe and not have any connections with Russia.

Clearly these two views are incompatible so perhaps the answer is some sort of split like Czechoslovakia or like the breakup of the former Yugoslavia.




.

[Z]

Perhaps dividing the Country is the only real solution, or having a loose collecton of autonomous states like a Federal Republic.

Clearly the majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians in the East do not want to be ruled by this new Govt in the West (whose first law was to ban the use of Russian language) and I would guess the vast majority of the western Ukrainian population would prefer to look to Europe and not have any connections with Russia.

Clearly these two views are incompatible so perhaps the answer is some sort of split like Czechoslovakia or like the breakup of the former Yugoslavia.




.

I'd characterise a break up of Ukraine along the lines of Yugoslavia, it'll be messy and it won't keep many people happy. The problem is that the Soviet Union upon its dissolution left millions of people displaced, without a nationality and living in foreign countries where they'd once been at home. I even have a friend whose mother could never come visit her here in the UK because she doesn't have a passport, due to being a Russian Tatar living in Estonia who never renounced her nationality and took up Estonian nationality. Ukraine's East-West tug of war is certainly a major flashpoint in what could be World War III, but I'd reckon the destabilising effect of ISIS is far more of a threat. That juggernaut could reach the Caucasus, spread through the Middle East and North Africa and cause a total meltdown and redefinition of the world's borders as we know them, worst comes to worst.

[arista]

Prof Z

if the Americans Arm Ukraine
will it lead to WW3?


My Bunker is fully stocked.

[empire]

ukraine is no match for russia, putin is going to pump 600 billion into russian military modernization program that will last up to 2050, they aren't going to start another arms race, america can't afford to start one either, ukraine is a failed state, before the maiden, moscow had to pay billions every month, to kiev, the eu does not want ukraine membership, just a trade deal, this is america's doing, all this fighting for one thing, syria,putin stopped us-nato bombing of the syrian arab goverment, so they will bring the fight to his borders, to think that if assads goverment fell to nato bombing, the isis would of taken all of iraq and syria, and jordania and egypt would be next on the list,

[Z]

Prof Z

if the Americans Arm Ukraine
will it lead to WW3?


My Bunker is fully stocked.

Nah, it's another proxy war like those we saw in the Cold War (Afghanistan, Vietnam...) where as long as there's a thinly veiled sense of "it's not happening in our territory, so it's not really happening", nothing will come of it. Tensions will remain high and frosty but neither Russia nor the USA wants a war, both would rather remain expansionist (NATO expansion vs Russian annexations) and indirectly confrontational than at war. The more likely cause for World War III, if there was to be one, would be the fearless, terrifying rebels in the Middle East. That whole region is one big melting pot of religious, political and class based tensions that no one solution can accommodate. You have Shias vs Sunnis, Christians vs Muslims vs Jews, nepotism in various emirates and kingdoms, downtrodden men and women (especially women), highly Westernised city states vs nomadic desert tribes... the legacy of colonial times is finally coming to bite the west in the ass, in my opinion we should get the **** out of where we don't belong and leave them all to sort it out themselves. People will die, but they're dying anyway. At least if we retreat and let the various factions fight it out and work things out amongst themselves, we can deal with whatever rises out of the ashes instead of the plate spinning exercise that we've got going on at the moment. We can't fight Islamic State effectively because it's not confined to traditional borders, it's not a war that can be fought in traditional terms, in one region we refuse to cooperate with the government and in the other we've got what's essentially a Western-installed puppet government that has absolutely no power or respect among the people it presides over. Tony Blair and George W Bush have a lot to answer for, I think they should be tried as war criminals, personally, and it is a complete ****ing laugh that Tony Blair is now lording it up in the Middle East claiming to be a peace envoy of some sort. Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi and Osama bin Laden may have done some terrible things, but they were all once allies to the West. We've ****ed up.

World War III could well be on its way; we've got the rise of extremist parties all over Europe, total anarchy in the Middle East, North Africa (and parts of Western Africa) and the Caucasus; a great deal of hatred towards Muslims and a very poor understanding amongst every day people about what's actually going on around the world; this is all too familiar and echoes the political climate that led to World War II, except this time it's Muslims who are the subjects of scorn and misunderstanding instead of Jews and it's an undefined Islamic State that's acting belligerently in Asia instead of Nazi Germany in Central Europe. I do worry about it because we all assumed that we'd never go to war again, having learned our lessons... but the people in the Middle East didn't learn a lesson from World War II, the only lesson they learned is that the West felt like they could just flippantly draw borders, insert a large population of refugees and take all the oil from the Gulf. There's a lot of resentment towards the West and I'm not sure people really understand why.

[lostalex]

Russia supplies lots of military equipment to south american countries that are hostile to america.

Why does Russia supply weapons to Venezuela which constantly calls America the devil and the empire???

[empire]

venezuela has huge pools of oil, chavez was right about the coup in 2002, cia was behind it, venezuela is buying military hardware from russia for defense purpose only, after the iraq war, venezuela bought also the S-300 missile defense system, for some strange reason, america did not feel upset about that, but when assad had bought it, the west went up in arms about that, so putin made a deal that he would not supply the air defense system to syria, for no nato bombing,

[lostalex]

venezuela has huge pools of oil, chavez was right about the coup in 2002, cia was behind it, venezuela is buying military hardware from russia for defense purpose only, after the iraq war, venezuela bought also the S-300 missile defense system, for some strange reason, america did not feel upset about that, but when assad had bought it, the west went up in arms about that, so putin made a deal that he would not supply the air defense system to syria, for no nato bombing,

and you don't think Ukraine has the same reason to want military equiptment from the US? after all of the hostilities against them from Russia?

and just for the record, the US has never kicked up a stink about Russia supplying arms to latin countries. (because we know the technology is inferior, and mostly useless against the US military)

[arista]

Putin agrees to a ceasefire

[MTVN]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31359021

Quite surprised the BBC have ran this, just shows how murky it was the way in which Yanukovych was toppled

[Nedusa]

Nah, it's another proxy war like those we saw in the Cold War (Afghanistan, Vietnam...) where as long as there's a thinly veiled sense of "it's not happening in our territory, so it's not really happening", nothing will come of it. Tensions will remain high and frosty but neither Russia nor the USA wants a war, both would rather remain expansionist (NATO expansion vs Russian annexations) and indirectly confrontational than at war. The more likely cause for World War III, if there was to be one, would be the fearless, terrifying rebels in the Middle East. That whole region is one big melting pot of religious, political and class based tensions that no one solution can accommodate. You have Shias vs Sunnis, Christians vs Muslims vs Jews, nepotism in various emirates and kingdoms, downtrodden men and women (especially women), highly Westernised city states vs nomadic desert tribes... the legacy of colonial times is finally coming to bite the west in the ass, in my opinion we should get the **** out of where we don't belong and leave them all to sort it out themselves. People will die, but they're dying anyway. At least if we retreat and let the various factions fight it out and work things out amongst themselves, we can deal with whatever rises out of the ashes instead of the plate spinning exercise that we've got going on at the moment. We can't fight Islamic State effectively because it's not confined to traditional borders, it's not a war that can be fought in traditional terms, in one region we refuse to cooperate with the government and in the other we've got what's essentially a Western-installed puppet government that has absolutely no power or respect among the people it presides over. Tony Blair and George W Bush have a lot to answer for, I think they should be tried as war criminals, personally, and it is a complete ****ing laugh that Tony Blair is now lording it up in the Middle East claiming to be a peace envoy of some sort. Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi and Osama bin Laden may have done some terrible things, but they were all once allies to the West. We've ****ed up.

World War III could well be on its way; we've got the rise of extremist parties all over Europe, total anarchy in the Middle East, North Africa (and parts of Western Africa) and the Caucasus; a great deal of hatred towards Muslims and a very poor understanding amongst every day people about what's actually going on around the world; this is all too familiar and echoes the political climate that led to World War II, except this time it's Muslims who are the subjects of scorn and misunderstanding instead of Jews and it's an undefined Islamic State that's acting belligerently in Asia instead of Nazi Germany in Central Europe. I do worry about it because we all assumed that we'd never go to war again, having learned our lessons... but the people in the Middle East didn't learn a lesson from World War II, the only lesson they learned is that the West felt like they could just flippantly draw borders, insert a large population of refugees and take all the oil from the Gulf. There's a lot of resentment towards the West and I'm not sure people really understand why.

Excellent Post.........says it all really.







.

[DemolitionRed]

Its a combination of many things that could lead us into WWIII I think Andrew Handley has it spot on...http://listverse.com/2014/03/06/10-signs-we-are-headed-into-world-war-iii/

[DemolitionRed]

Prof Z

if the Americans Arm Ukraine
will it lead to WW3?


My Bunker is fully stocked.

They effectively just have because the international monetary fund have just handed them 17.5 billion dollars. That's seen as a financial transaction and not arming the Ukrainians so we can put our hands up and still say we didn't arm them but that's going to be open to question.

If we get involved then China will come in on Russia's side.

As the ceasefire agreement was being singed this morning, Russia's television broadcasts were saying that they now had enough man power on western borders to take all of Europe and that they could take Germany and Poland in a day.

[Nedusa]

Its a combination of many things that could lead us into WWIII I think Andrew Handley has it spot on...http://listverse.com/2014/03/06/10-signs-we-are-headed-into-world-war-iii/

I have to say that article is the worst anti Russian drivel I have read in a long long time. My God what planet is this guy on, such narrow minded pro western nonsense, totally biased, does not look at the bigger picture, just read some of my earlier posts and you will see who the real villian is.

It really frustates me to read propaganda like this as many people will believe this rubbish and take it for fact, when it isn't, it's a distorted version of events spun to cast Russia as the evil empire.

Utter tosh..................






.

[Kizzy]

Thank god, I hope it holds.


An agreement aimed at ending the fighting in Ukraine has been reached, following marathon talks in Belarus.

The leaders of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France announced that a ceasefire would begin on 15 February.

The deal also includes weapon withdrawals and prisoner exchanges, but key issues remain to be settled.

The pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine have signed the agreement. Thousands of people died in almost a year of fighting in the region.

The BBC's Richard Galpin in Minsk says the deal is very similar to a ceasefire agreed last September, which unravelled very quickly.

The latest agreement includes:

Ceasefire to begin at 00:01 local time on 15 February
Heavy weapons to be pulled out from conflict zones, beginning on 17 February and completed in two weeks
All prisoners to be released; amnesty for those involved in fighting
Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, weapons and mercenaries from Ukrainian territory. Disarmament of all illegal groups
Ukraine to allow resumption of normal life in rebel areas, by lifting restrictions
Constitutional reform to enable decentralisation for rebel regions by the end of 2015
Ukraine to control border with Russia if conditions met by the end of 2015


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31435812

[Northern Monkey]

Cease fire won't last.

[DemolitionRed]

I have to say that article is the worst anti Russian drivel I have read in a long long time. My God what planet is this guy on, such narrow minded pro western nonsense, totally biased, does not look at the bigger picture, just read some of my earlier posts and you will see who the real villian is.

It really frustates me to read propaganda like this as many people will believe this rubbish and take it for fact, when it isn't, it's a distorted version of events spun to cast Russia as the evil empire.

Utter tosh..................

.

And of course, I could call your posts utter tosh!! Please point out what is tosh in this article?

I said before, we are diametrically opposed and so we have to agree to disagree. I believe we all need to take a share of the responsibility regarding what is presently going on in the Ukraine, regardless of weather you're east or west of that country; the issue is, the people in the Ukraine have become collateral between the east and the west.

[arista]

Cease fire won't last.

Yes so many are saying that

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/12/259C7BB900000578-2951074-image-a-3_1423760391915.jpg
Fisty Cuffs in Ukraine Politics

[Vadim Ivchenko, from the Fatherland party, then throws an almighty right hand on to the jaw of Mr Sobolev]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2951074/So-peace-Ukraine-Rival-MPs-trade-blows-vicious-punch-falling-corruption-bill.html#ixzz3RYq5RizJ

[DemolitionRed]

Cease fire won't last.

Will it even start?

This ceasefire has been brokered by Germany and France,(the primary movers behind negotiating the ceasefire). Its been called an unconditional ceasefire, however, the Ukrainian PM left the negotiations at one point claiming he couldn't work with these political conditions such as the decentralization of power within the Ukraine and referendums and democratic reforms (that's a joke that has been insisted on by Russia!). The Ukrainians have accepted a massive IMF loan in return for their capitulation. While all this has been going on, the state control Russian media has been reporting from their current front line that the Russian army could march to Poland or Germany. These statements just don't concur with the story that is being told in the discussions over the ceasefire.

This is the second time a ceasefire has been agreed on and as we all know, the first one never happened.

[Northern Monkey]

Will it even start?

This ceasefire has been brokered by Germany and France,(the primary movers behind negotiating the ceasefire). Its been called an unconditional ceasefire, however, the Ukrainian PM left the negotiations at one point claiming he couldn't work with these political conditions such as the decentralization of power within the Ukraine and referendums and democratic reforms (that's a joke that has been insisted on by Russia!). The Ukrainians have accepted a massive IMF loan in return for their capitulation. While all this has been going on, the state control Russian media has been reporting from their current front line that the Russian army could march to Poland or Germany. These statements just don't concur with the story that is being told in the discussions over the ceasefire.

This is the second time a ceasefire has been agreed on and as we all know, the first one never happened.I agree.Putin continually makes statements or promises and continually lies.

[Z]

I have to say that article is the worst anti Russian drivel I have read in a long long time. My God what planet is this guy on, such narrow minded pro western nonsense, totally biased, does not look at the bigger picture, just read some of my earlier posts and you will see who the real villian is.

It really frustates me to read propaganda like this as many people will believe this rubbish and take it for fact, when it isn't, it's a distorted version of events spun to cast Russia as the evil empire.

Utter tosh..................






.

I agree with you, it's a stupid cliche to cast Russia as the bad guy, that's the narrative that the US has promoted for the last century and everything it does is in opposition to the Russian Federation. They don't trust each other, yes, they swagger and posture politically to try and intimidate each other, yes, but they're not about to start bombing each other. The stakes are too high. The real threat will come from countries with enough bite to cause a stir (North Korea, Iran, groups like ISIS, the Al-Qaeda, the Taliban...) but nothing to lose. Russia and the USA have a lot to lose, which is why they'll never go to war with one another again (unless something drastic occurs) - that article is pure anti-Russian fear mongering drivel. It's not nonsense per se, the guy makes good points, but they're totally misguided and come from a very biased, perhaps uneducated, Americanised point of view.

I remember my mum saying 9/11 would lead to World War III. At the time I thought she was wrong because while it was deeply shocking, it wasn't an act of war from an enemy state. The events of the last 14 years, however, have led us to a point where we really are dangerously close to falling into World War III. I really wish Scotland had become independent, I do not want to be sucked into World War III by any of those pillocks down in Westminster. I've still never forgiven what Tony Blair did to this country, dragging us into Iraq. I could honestly go on for days and days about this subject but I'll shut up now... I have a lot of thoughts and no one cares to listen to me :laugh:

[Z]

As for Russia's interference in Ukraine - it's nowhere near as unpredictable as people make it out to be. Russia was provoked. Many people might not recognise it, but it's no different than if Russia formed a defence organisation to protect itself and its allies from the threat of the United States and invited Canada to be a member, just to pull Canada out of the USA's sphere of influence. I mean just take a moment to actually consider what the EU was doing; it was trying to incorporate Ukraine into its organisation, a country that is hugely in debt, fully corrupt and barely able to function and millions of citizens who would doubtless seek to move west for a better life, at a time when many Europeans are turning their backs on Schengen, immigration and there's a lot of hatred towards Slavs, Roma and foreigners in general. What could the EU possibly have gained from a formal relationship with Ukraine? Nothing much, other than making sure Russia doesn't have control over it.

Russia's involvement in Ukraine is little more than political posturing, sending a message that it will not be bullied by sanctions and trade agreements and pencil pushers trying to isolate it. Russia knows if it acts decisively with precise force, it will go unchallenged. Georgia 2008 showed as much. Russia chose Ukraine next because of its military connections to Sevastopol and the Crimean peninsula, its lack of membership in European organisations and its heavy dependence on Russian help. It could have just as easily been Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, any of the Central Asian -stan republics...

I wish I had a practical use for my degree, this is what I studied and I love talking about it :laugh:

[Nedusa]

As for Russia's interference in Ukraine - it's nowhere near as unpredictable as people make it out to be. Russia was provoked. Many people might not recognise it, but it's no different than if Russia formed a defence organisation to protect itself and its allies from the threat of the United States and invited Canada to be a member, just to pull Canada out of the USA's sphere of influence. I mean just take a moment to actually consider what the EU was doing; it was trying to incorporate Ukraine into its organisation, a country that is hugely in debt, fully corrupt and barely able to function and millions of citizens who would doubtless seek to move west for a better life, at a time when many Europeans are turning their backs on Schengen, immigration and there's a lot of hatred towards Slavs, Roma and foreigners in general. What could the EU possibly have gained from a formal relationship with Ukraine? Nothing much, other than making sure Russia doesn't have control over it.

Russia's involvement in Ukraine is little more than political posturing, sending a message that it will not be bullied by sanctions and trade agreements and pencil pushers trying to isolate it. Russia knows if it acts decisively with precise force, it will go unchallenged. Georgia 2008 showed as much. Russia chose Ukraine next because of its military connections to Sevastopol and the Crimean peninsula, its lack of membership in European organisations and its heavy dependence on Russian help. It could have just as easily been Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, any of the Central Asian -stan republics...

I wish I had a practical use for my degree, this is what I studied and I love talking about it :laugh:

Great Post....... You have expanded on some of the reasons why Russia has been forced down this road and has to take the actions it has.

:clap1:





.

[DemolitionRed]

I agree with you, it's a stupid cliche to cast Russia as the bad guy, that's the narrative that the US has promoted for the last century and everything it does is in opposition to the Russian Federation. They don't trust each other, yes, they swagger and posture politically to try and intimidate each other, yes, but they're not about to start bombing each other. The stakes are too high. The real threat will come from countries with enough bite to cause a stir (North Korea, Iran, groups like ISIS, the Al-Qaeda, the Taliban...) but nothing to lose. Russia and the USA have a lot to lose, which is why they'll never go to war with one another again (unless something drastic occurs) - that article is pure anti-Russian fear mongering drivel. It's not nonsense per se, the guy makes good points, but they're totally misguided and come from a very biased, perhaps uneducated, Americanised point of view.



Its strange that you think his article is uneducated drivel because from what you have just said here, you agree with him about North Korea and Iran. Are you saying the snippet he wrote about Russia is drivel or the entire article? You need to be more specific when you clearly agree with some of what he's said.

[Nedusa]

This (below) is a current BBC News report of the current situation in Ukraine.

New shelling has been reported around the rebel-held east Ukrainian cities of Donetsk and Luhansk, a day after a peace deal was reached in Minsk.

There are no confirmed reports of casualties. Both cities are near the front line where the pro-Russian rebels face government forces.

The ceasefire agreed in the Belarusian capital is to begin in eastern Ukraine after midnight (22:00 GMT) on Saturday.

The EU has warned Russia of additional sanctions if the deal is not respected.
BBC journalists in Donetsk heard new shelling on Friday morning, though they said it sounded less intense than in recent days.

Luhansk also came under bombardment overnight - with Russian TV reporting some of the heaviest fighting in months.

On Friday morning, a military spokesman in Kiev said eight members of Ukraine's military had been killed in fighting against separatists in the past 24 hours.

Meanwhile, rebels said seven civilians had been killed, reported AFP news agency. Two people were also killed on Friday morning when rebels shelled a cafe in Shchastya, near Luhansk, said the head of the Kiev-controlled regional administration.

"So this is how a comprehensive ceasefire is prepared for," said Hennadiy Moskal in a statement.

He was echoing wider doubts about the peace deal agreed following marathon negotiations between Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France.

Women embrace as they wait for a bus, carrying evacuees to Russia, to leave Donetsk
German Chancellor Angela Merkel - whose tireless shuttle diplomacy on Ukraine many credit with the deal - has warned that it presents only a "glimmer of hope"
Pro-Russian rebels have signed the agreement, which also includes weapon withdrawals and prisoner exchanges, but key issues remain to be settled.







If you read the article it is clear the areas being shelled and the people being killed are pro Russian Ukrainians living in or near Donetsk or Luhansk, it is clear the current Ukrainian Govt are happy to keep on attacking and killing their fellow Ukrainians right up to the ceasefire deadline.

I must also point out that this article like most articles from Western media sources is again biased towards the Pro Western side , if you see the comment in bold above you have to ask what relevance that line has given the current context of the article.

clearly the Pro russian cities are being shelled by pro western forces so why mention the EU has warned Russia of further sanctions if the deal is not respected. this clearly infers Russia is involved in this continuing shelling when clearly it is not.

More biased reporting along with inserting the line about Ukrainian soldiers dying fighting separatists, which has been inserted for balance when no balance was necessary given the main news being reported in this article.

I could summarise this whole article in two or three lines.

Unelected Ukrainian govt continues killing its own people using weapons supplied by US before the ceasefire deadline comes into effect. This is being done at the behest of the west and reported by Western media sources to look like this fighting is continuing on both sides.





.

[MTVN]

I thought the same Nedusa, all this talk about how Russia must respect the ceasefire or face consequences, what about Kiev? It's impressive how that article is able to report on the shelling of civilian areas without laying any blame at the door of the Ukrainian government for doing so.

[DemolitionRed]

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/12/at-minsk-putin-got-everything-he-wanted-took-no-responsibility-for-the-future/

[Kizzy]

Due to the size of the chemical plant explosion I'm surprised there's anyone left in east Ukraine to evacuate.

[MTVN]

That site says "terrorists and bandits", UK media says "rebels", RT says "self defence forces", funny how different tags can instil such different connotations. Also funny how the BBC say "The EU has warned Russia of additional sanctions if the deal is not respected" while that site says "The possibility of new economic sanctions has been eliminated". Two reports whose sympathies lie more with Kiev than Moscow yet they still relay things entirely differently. Reality is that either side could wheel out a couple of 'analysts' to argue that they are being treated unfairly.

I always find Mary Dejevsky's articles on Ukraine pretty good and a decent attempt to draw a bridge between the two opposing narratives. Excerpt from her article today:

The agreement differs somewhat in detail from its predecessors but little in spirit. It is the obvious compromise solution, waiting to happen. It provides for Ukraine to remain a single state within its current borders, which has been a central demand of Kiev. It enshrines a measure of constitutional autonomy for the territory held by the anti-Kiev rebels in the east, which has been a central demand of theirs – not independence, not secession to Russia, but devolved government within Ukraine.

This has always been the outcome that Moscow has insisted it would accept. But each time the ceasefire has broken down, largely because the rebels rejected the most basic practical arrangements on the ground. The last ceasefire collapsed in the first instance because some groups of rebels refused to give up certain villages – their home villages – which had been the price for the rebels’ retaining Donetsk airport. This was a turn of events that Russia had neither envisaged nor approved. Yet it could not have enforced compliance without sending in much heavier forces of its own. Moscow’s capacity to control the rebel forces has always been exaggerated.

If the rebels were undisciplined and rejected part of the deal negotiated on their behalf, the Kiev government was not entirely blameless either. President Poroshenko has been adamant that Ukraine should remain a unitary state, fearing that moves towards a more federal system could precipitate its break-up. If Kiev had been able to get its political writ to run in the east, or – failing that – to conquer the territory by force, then a unitary state would have been the unambiguous result.

But the conflict of the past year has shown that it is unable to do either, at least not without outside military help that most European governments, at least, are not prepared to give. Decentralisation is the only way that Ukraine can now remain one state. If Poroshenko has now been persuaded to accept this, then that offers the latest peace plan a chance.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ukraine-crisis-a-deal-that-does-not-remove-distrust-but-on-which-a-political-settlement-depends-10042692.html

[DemolitionRed]

This is a Russian translation of an article in the news site Fort Russ that appeared before the agreement.

[I]Kolomoysky is creating his own General Staff (Clarification of situation)

The next moment of honesty from Yarosh:

“The new HQ will be joined by about 17 various volunteer battalions, subordinated to the MVD and the MOD, and of course the Right Sector Volunteer Corps.

We have already created a unique operational staff. It will be located in Dnepropetrovsk. It will perform intelligence data exchange, mutual assistance, military-technical cooperation, and so on. We may also form certain operational formations at the front, after all we often have the best operational information about what is happening on this or that sector of the front simply because our battalions are there. We can make recommendations to the General Staff in order to carry out operational and tactical missions,” added Yarosh.

As we can see, the creation of a new command entity for part of the UAF and MVD is proceeding at full pace, and it will be based in Dnepropetrovsk. The formation will in practical terms means the formation of a Dnepropetrovsk khanate, and an increase in Kolomoysky’s influence in intra-Ukrainian power struggles, which will violate the current balance of power.

Even if there is an agreement reached in Minsk today, which I don’t believe will happen (if anything is signed, it will not be done seriously or for long, unfortunately), the break-down of the UAF and MVD into two components will be de-facto concluded. Then UAF formations will have to choose a side, either with Poroshenko or not with Poroshenko.

It won’t happen today or tomorrow, but very soon everyone who is fighting against LPR/DPR will have to make that choice, and then the Ukrainian civil war will spread with new force to new territories. Because according to the Washington central, it’s not enough to plunge the Donbass into chaos; all of Ukraine must be affected. And unfortunately the people of Ukraine are following that path.

US plans do not foresee the war in Ukraine ever ending. If it ends, it will be a defeat for Washington. They will never agree to that. I am certain of it.

[DemolitionRed]

Translated text of report by Lithuanian news website Delfi from 16 January 2015.

Russian analyst Illarionov discusses Putin’s plans for Ukraine. (For those who suggest Russia wouldn't want to take the Ukraine)

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/22/russian-analyst-illarionov-discusses-putins-plans-for-ukraine/

[DemolitionRed]

Can you imagine if Scotland had become independent and England had gone on to pull out of the EU. Somewhere down the line Scotland pushes to join the EU and just as that signature gets close to being signed, we put massive military forces on the borders into Scotland. What would happen if we, the English decided to arm those still living in Scotland who were opposed to the change, with the intention of causing havoc whilst weakening and perhaps overthrowing the Scottish government?

Would Scotland expect military assistance from other EU countries? after all, they were so close to signing the EU agreement or should the EU ignore Scotland and let it fall back into British hands?

[MTVN]

Can you imagine if Scotland had become independent and England had gone on to pull out of the EU. Somewhere down the line Scotland pushes to join the EU and just as that signature gets close to being signed, we put massive military forces on the borders into Scotland. What would happen if we, the English decided to arm those still living in Scotland who were opposed to the change, with the intention of causing havoc whilst weakening and perhaps overthrowing the Scottish government?

Would Scotland expect military assistance from other EU countries? after all, they were so close to signing the EU agreement or should the EU ignore Scotland and let it fall back into British hands?

Perhaps we could alter this scenario. Scotland, like eastern Ukraine has its own distinctive culture and outlook within the UK. Those for independence argue that London is distant to them, it does not represent or care for them and has no interest for Scottish needs. That is how the rebels feel about Kiev. How about instead of devolving powers to Scotland as Westminster has, and instead of promising further powers to keep them within the Union, the Tory government instead said: nah, we're the government and you have to accept it, you are not allowed any autonomy or control over your own issues, all power resides with us. Would the Scots accept that the way the eastern Ukrainian rebels are supposed to? We could even take this further and imagine that there was a Prime Minister who was sympathetic to Scottish devolutionists and sought to promote their interests, he was democratically elected and yet suddenly violent protests erupt in London, the Prime Minister has to flee, in comes a government completely opposed to Scottish interests and suddenly starts clamping down on their autonomy. Would that be accepted?

My issue with your argument is that you don't seem to have any recognition for the genuine grievances and aims of eastern Ukrainians. Most of them don't want the country to break up but they are very unhappy and disillusioned with the conduct of the Kiev regime which exercises so much centralised power. That article you linked says it all where it dismisses the rebels as "bandits and terrorists". That is the same tactic used by every government in history to try and de-legitimise opposition movements. This is not simply Ukraine vs Russia, the rebels are not merely Russians in disguise, all anti-Kiev government is not controlled from the barrel of a gun. Simplify the conflict into binaries and there never will be a satisfactory agreement. The more it is seen as Russia vs Ukraine, or Russia vs the West, and the more it is seen as a new 'cold war' the worse the situation is going to get.

[empire]

when the ussr went broke, the oligarch moved in and nearly wrecked russia under western puppet boris yeltsin, then putin came in and kicked out the oligarch from the top to the bottom, putin is a smart cookie, aswell because he could for see that the EU state is going to collapse, eu state can't afford ukraine membership, because they need 50 billion a month, no country in the eu state will pay up to 15 billion a month, ukraine is nothing without russia, if they stand alone, they are a failed state, there army is in near defeat, and their gold reserves are gone, the maidan government will be overthrown pretty much soon, the us goverment is desperate to keep the maidan in, they will waste taxpayers money for it, and hard working americans will suffer for it,

[Z]

Its strange that you think his article is uneducated drivel because from what you have just said here, you agree with him about North Korea and Iran. Are you saying the snippet he wrote about Russia is drivel or the entire article? You need to be more specific when you clearly agree with some of what he's said.

The Russian part.

[kirklancaster]

Perhaps we could alter this scenario. Scotland, like eastern Ukraine has its own distinctive culture and outlook within the UK. Those for independence argue that London is distant to them, it does not represent or care for them and has no interest for Scottish needs. That is how the rebels feel about Kiev. How about instead of devolving powers to Scotland as Westminster has, and instead of promising further powers to keep them within the Union, the Tory government instead said: nah, we're the government and you have to accept it, you are not allowed any autonomy or control over your own issues, all power resides with us. Would the Scots accept that the way the eastern Ukrainian rebels are supposed to? We could even take this further and imagine that there was a Prime Minister who was sympathetic to Scottish devolutionists and sought to promote their interests, he was democratically elected and yet suddenly violent protests erupt in London, the Prime Minister has to flee, in comes a government completely opposed to Scottish interests and suddenly starts clamping down on their autonomy. Would that be accepted?

My issue with your argument is that you don't seem to have any recognition for the genuine grievances and aims of eastern Ukrainians. Most of them don't want the country to break up but they are very unhappy and disillusioned with the conduct of the Kiev regime which exercises so much centralised power. That article you linked says it all where it dismisses the rebels as "bandits and terrorists". That is the same tactic used by every government in history to try and de-legitimise opposition movements. This is not simply Ukraine vs Russia, the rebels are not merely Russians in disguise, all anti-Kiev government is not controlled from the barrel of a gun. Simplify the conflict into binaries and there never will be a satisfactory agreement. The more it is seen as Russia vs Ukraine, or Russia vs the West, and the more it is seen as a new 'cold war' the worse the situation is going to get.

:worship: We have been known to disagree, but I cannot fault one point made in this. And brilliantly written.

[empire]

people here think the russian army are poorly under funded, well if you look at the russian army of the 90s vs the russian army of the 2015, then you will be shocked, nato knows that thay are taking on a army that is not under funded or poorly trained, there military hardware is not downgraded export stuff either, russia is not iraq remember,

[DemolitionRed]

Where did the pro Russian separatists get their heavy armoury from? The local corner shop? If Russia hadn’t got involved this would not be happening now.

East Ukraine has a lot of pro Russian residents but that’s their choice. They don’t live in Russia and they don’t live in the Crimea; through choice they live in the Ukraine…a self-governing…none aligned country. (and btw I have never seen Crimea as part of the Ukraine).

When the Ukrainian government was toppled, it was toppled by its people…just like the storming of the Bastille it was a popular uprising. The large populous want more independence that what they currently have; the pro Russians want Russian law in a country that isn't Russia.

ED to say: Russia and pro Russians have no claim on the rest of the Ukraine (that includes the eastern border)

My thoughts on Crimea:
The Crimea hasn’t flourished under Ukrainian rule; in fact it’s a neglected and forgotten part of the Ukraine that isn’t allowed many of the same benefits. The Ukraine should of allowed a legitimate referendum (they had wanted this for years) and if the vote swung in favour of the Crimea reuniting with Russia, then that choice should have been given. Crimea is a country within a country, its an Autonomous Republic where the majority of Crimean’s are not Ukrainian and as such, have or at least should have the right to choose their future. Unfortunately, because less than 20% of Crimea is Tartar, these people will have to accept their loss.

[DemolitionRed]

................double post

[Livia]

........My thoughts on Crimea:
The Crimea hasn’t flourished under Ukrainian rule; in fact it’s a neglected and forgotten part of the Ukraine that isn’t allowed many of the same benefits. The Ukraine should of allowed a legitimate referendum (they had wanted this for years) and if the vote swung in favour of the Crimea reuniting with Russia, then that choice should have been given. Crimea is a country within a country, its an Autonomous Republic where the majority of Crimean’s are not Ukrainian and as such, have or at least should have the right to choose their future. Unfortunately, because less than 20% of Crimea is Tartar, these people will have to accept their loss.


The home of Russia's Black Sea Fleet is at Sevastopol in Crimea. Even though it's part of Ukraine, Russians have patrolled the streets of Sevastopol for over 200 years. It's strategically important for Russia both defensively and offensively. Russian presence in Crimea makes Ukraine hard to defend because Russia hold them on three fronts and I can't see Russia giving up its grip on it easily.

Thought it was worth repeating my original post. My view is that Russia will never give up its hold on Crimea generally, and Sevastopol in particular.

[DemolitionRed]

Livia, up until my last post I haven't been discussing the Crimea; I've been discussing the Ukraine and like I previously said, I don't look towards the Crimea and see it as part of the Ukraine and neither would most Ukrainians. The Crimean’s don't think of themselves as Ukrainian, they think of themselves as Russians (except for the Tatars) because historically and politically Crimea has been a part of the Russian empire since the 18th century.

My argument has never been about the taking of Crimea but the taking of east Ukraine.

[Northern Monkey]

Well they're still fighting heavily and the ceasefire's close.BBC News said the rebels went for a last minute land grab and both sides are not looking like stopping.Also Russia apparently resupplying the rebels and Russian artillery spotted firing on the Ukrainians.

[lostalex]

As for Russia's interference in Ukraine - it's nowhere near as unpredictable as people make it out to be. Russia was provoked. Many people might not recognise it, but it's no different than if Russia formed a defence organisation to protect itself and its allies from the threat of the United States and invited Canada to be a member, just to pull Canada out of the USA's sphere of influence. I mean just take a moment to actually consider what the EU was doing; it was trying to incorporate Ukraine into its organisation, a country that is hugely in debt, fully corrupt and barely able to function and millions of citizens who would doubtless seek to move west for a better life, at a time when many Europeans are turning their backs on Schengen, immigration and there's a lot of hatred towards Slavs, Roma and foreigners in general. What could the EU possibly have gained from a formal relationship with Ukraine? Nothing much, other than making sure Russia doesn't have control over it.

Russia's involvement in Ukraine is little more than political posturing, sending a message that it will not be bullied by sanctions and trade agreements and pencil pushers trying to isolate it. Russia knows if it acts decisively with precise force, it will go unchallenged. Georgia 2008 showed as much. Russia chose Ukraine next because of its military connections to Sevastopol and the Crimean peninsula, its lack of membership in European organisations and its heavy dependence on Russian help. It could have just as easily been Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, any of the Central Asian -stan republics...

I wish I had a practical use for my degree, this is what I studied and I love talking about it :laugh:

if America wanted to invade and own Russia, it would already be done, and Russia would have no power to stop it.

The idea that America has plans to conquer and own Russia is ****ing RETARDED.

Russia is pathetic failed state that happens to have some natural resources. Russia is trying to bully all of Europe politically just because they have a large supply of natural gas. The US is helping Europe stand up to the Russian bullying.

America doesn't need Russian gas, Europeans do. And Putin was trying to bully Europe with that leverage, America is just trying to even the playing field for the other European countries that need that gas. Russia has no right to be a bully just because they have a specific natural resource.

[DemolitionRed]

Russian state media at fever pitch

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11412878/Putin-Will-he-go-nuclear.html

[MTVN]

Where did the pro Russian separatists get their heavy armoury from? The local corner shop? If Russia hadn’t got involved this would not be happening now.

East Ukraine has a lot of pro Russian residents but that’s their choice. They don’t live in Russia and they don’t live in the Crimea; through choice they live in the Ukraine…a self-governing…none aligned country. (and btw I have never seen Crimea as part of the Ukraine).

When the Ukrainian government was toppled, it was toppled by its people…just like the storming of the Bastille it was a popular uprising. The large populous want more independence that what they currently have; the pro Russians want Russian law in a country that isn't Russia.

ED to say: Russia and pro Russians have no claim on the rest of the Ukraine (that includes the eastern border)

My thoughts on Crimea:
The Crimea hasn’t flourished under Ukrainian rule; in fact it’s a neglected and forgotten part of the Ukraine that isn’t allowed many of the same benefits. The Ukraine should of allowed a legitimate referendum (they had wanted this for years) and if the vote swung in favour of the Crimea reuniting with Russia, then that choice should have been given. Crimea is a country within a country, its an Autonomous Republic where the majority of Crimean’s are not Ukrainian and as such, have or at least should have the right to choose their future. Unfortunately, because less than 20% of Crimea is Tartar, these people will have to accept their loss.

A lot of armament factories from the Soviet era are based in eastern Ukraine, it was already a region littered with weapons. If the Ukrainian government was toppled by the 'people', it was the people of Kiev who don't represent the whole of the country, and it can't be denied either way that the toppling was done in quite shady circumstances.

[MTVN]

if America wanted to invade and own Russia, it would already be done, and Russia would have no power to stop it.

The idea that America has plans to conquer and own Russia is ****ing RETARDED.

Russia is pathetic failed state that happens to have some natural resources. Russia is trying to bully all of Europe politically just because they have a large supply of natural gas. The US is helping Europe stand up to the Russian bullying.

America doesn't need Russian gas, Europeans do. And Putin was trying to bully Europe with that leverage, America is just trying to even the playing field for the other European countries that need that gas. Russia has no right to be a bully just because they have a specific natural resource.

"if Russia wanted to invade and own Ukraine, it would already be done, and Ukraine would have no power to stop it."

[DemolitionRed]

"if Russia wanted to invade and own Ukraine, it would already be done, and Ukraine would have no power to stop it."

I disagree. Russia is fully aware that a full on invasion would undoubtedly bring about a world war. Both Russia and the west are being guarded and rightly so.

[MTVN]

I disagree. Russia is fully aware that a full on invasion would undoubtedly bring about a world war. Both Russia and the west are being guarded and rightly so.

I agree, my point more was replying to the 'USA could conquer Russia if they wanted to' argument, as though the fact they haven't means they are not responsible for any provocation of inflaming of tensions

[empire]

ukraine's army stuff, is top of the range, but is old and many of the tanks and other armour lay rotten after they had no money to keep them running, last time those tanks in ukraine had an upgrade, was back in the 80s,

[Z]

if America wanted to invade and own Russia, it would already be done, and Russia would have no power to stop it.

The idea that America has plans to conquer and own Russia is ****ing RETARDED.

Russia is pathetic failed state that happens to have some natural resources. Russia is trying to bully all of Europe politically just because they have a large supply of natural gas. The US is helping Europe stand up to the Russian bullying.

America doesn't need Russian gas, Europeans do. And Putin was trying to bully Europe with that leverage, America is just trying to even the playing field for the other European countries that need that gas. Russia has no right to be a bully just because they have a specific natural resource.

Why are you quoting me and implying that I've suggested America wants to conquer Russia? It doesn't, it just wants to neuter it and block it from having as much influence as America has in global affairs, seeing as Russia and China can gang up and veto American led decision making in UN affairs. Russia was on the verge of being a failed state in the 90s; but under Putin has restored much of its former glory because he's an A+ statesman who knows how to manoeuvre politically to get what he wants. I wrote my dissertation about Russia's use of natural resources in the political arena; the US really isn't helping Europe to stand up to Russia, the sheer level of neglect in Poland and the Baltic States alone is enough proof of that.

[MTVN]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/81020000/jpg/_81020786_81020415.jpg

[empire]

russia has the largest amounts of rare and earth materials, on the planet, even huge mines of jem stones to gold and sliver, putin knows about the energy war, america want's to start ww3, for the oil and gas, and yes they are after the jems and gold, aswell, like all empires, they rise and fall, america is no different,

[Nedusa]

russia has the largest amounts of rare and earth materials, on the planet, even huge mines of jem stones to gold and sliver, putin knows about the energy war, america want's to start ww3, for the oil and gas, and yes they are after the jems and gold, aswell, like all empires, they rise and fall, america is no different,

I agree...............it makes me shudder to think the US actually wants to ultimately provoke Russia into all out War !!

I mean wtf.......a country who have been invaded so many times in their history, who lost over 20 million of its citizens in two World Wars, a Country who ultimately became the major part of a Superpower and as a consequence has thousands upon thousands of Nuclear Misslies capable of striking pretty much anywhere in the World.

With the latest in Supersonic Cruise Missles and ALBM,SLBM this really is not a Country you would want to willingly provoke...

Yet the US/Nato seems intent on pushing Ukraine to try and take back areas of Eastern Ukraine by force , force that equates to shelling and killing many innocent russian speaking Ukrainians. Clearly Russia will not stand idly by and allow this to happen. These people are terrified and just want to be protected.

They know if Russia deserted them the so called "Govt" in Kiev would run riot across that whole area , you would see blood letting on a massive scale with thousands upon thousands of Ukrainians dispossessed with huge numbers of refugees, basically a humanitarian disaster.

So No. Russia won't turn its back on its fellow Countrymen and Putin will try and provide help covertly, yes everyone knows this, BUT Putin does not want a conflict with the West for obvious reasons.

So why the Hell does the West want a conflict with Putin (Russia)

That is a question many intelligent people are desparately trying to answer, maybe they think Putin will back down.

Well ....he won't not when pushed around in his own backyard like this, I'm afraid he will have no choice but to stand and fight, and we all know where that will lead..






.

[lostalex]

The level of Putin sympathy around here is truly astounding. JOB WELL DONE RUSSIA TODAY! you deserve a raise!

I wonder how much sympathy the same people defending him on this forum would have for him if he was THEIR leader.

If tomorrow Putin was the leader of the UK, I think a lot of people here would be singing a different tune.

It's just like the people that defend Cuba's Castro, they love to sing his praises, but if any leader of the UK ever behaved that way or made the same decisions, they'd be screaming bloody murder.

[Mystic Mock]

The level of Putin sympathy around here is truly astounding. JOB WELL DONE RUSSIA TODAY! you deserve a raise!

I wonder how much sympathy the same people defending him on this forum would have for him if he was THEIR leader.

Who's sympathizing with him on here? You would have to be a pretty sick ****er to do that.

But I do agree with people on the fact that both America and Russia do tend to antagonize each other throughout their recent history.

[Northern Monkey]

The level of Putin sympathy around here is truly astounding. JOB WELL DONE RUSSIA TODAY! you deserve a raise!

I wonder how much sympathy the same people defending him on this forum would have for him if he was THEIR leader.

If tomorrow Putin was the leader of the UK, I think a lot of people here would be singing a different tune.

It's just like the people that defend Cuba's Castro, they love to sing his praises, but if any leader of the UK ever behaved that way or made the same decisions, they'd be screaming bloody murder.:thumbs:
Russian soldiers have no business being in Ukraine and so called 'rebels' are still pushing to take more towns even though there's supposed to be a ceasefire.
It's not NATO soldiers on the ground there it's Russian troops and weaponary.Putin will listen to nobody and carry on lying and keep pushing further into Ukraine trying to take more towns.As is happening right this minute.

[Nedusa]

:thumbs:
Russian soldiers have no business being in Ukraine and so called 'rebels' are still pushing to take more towns even though there's supposed to be a ceasefire.
It's not NATO soldiers on the ground there it's Russian troops and weaponary.Putin will listen to nobody and carry on lying and keep pushing further into Ukraine trying to take more towns.As is happening right this minute.

You may well be right, but they would never admit to being Russian Soldiers, maybe a Novorussian or Pro Russian brigade formed to try and push back the fascist murdering Non Russian, Russia hating Ukrainians who with the help of the west and an illegal coup here and some covert arms there think they can commit ethnic cleansing in Eastern Ukraine.

Well they cannot, and the US and it's lackeys are realising this now. They didn't force Russia out of the Crimea and they won't force Eastern UIkrainians out of their homelands either.

The West has already lost this war or proxy war, it cannot push Russia back without major escalation and a massive influx of heavy weaponry. this would frighten the crap out of most Western European Countries and they would fear for all out War fought in Europe (sounds familiar ??).

So no I think even the US will know it needs Russia's support on a wide range of other Global geopolitical issues so I don't think even they will push too far.

They might consider trying to split the Country as I'm sure Russia would prefer to keep it intact.

Either way it could soon be squeaky bum time soon....





:shocked:

[empire]

Remember a country called Georgia, with a pro puppet of the west called, Mikheil saakashvili, he attacked Russian peace keepers, in south Ossetia, he was caught on tv, eating his tie, when he thought the west would help him, America want's a puppet leader in Moscow, there is no way the people of Russia want to go back to the days of a boris yeltsin regime, the leaders in kiev, are nothing but a bunch of thugs who will bully the people of Ukraine, giving them a false dream,

[Nedusa]

Remember a country called Georgia, with a pro puppet of the west called, Mikheil saakashvili, he attacked Russian peace keepers, in south Ossetia, he was caught on tv, eating his tie, when he thought the west would help him, America want's a puppet leader in Moscow, there is no way the people of Russia want to go back to the days of a boris yeltsin regime, the leaders in kiev, are nothing but a bunch of thugs who will bully the people of Ukraine, giving them a false dream,

That is exactly what they are, an unelected fascist junta who are taking their orders from their paymasters who live nowhere near Ukraine.

These thugs are happy to attack their own countrymen in the East using all means at their disposal. They have lied to the masses in the west of Ukraine but Russia is well aware of the situation and will never allow them free reign in the East of Ukraine .

Fact is they are losing the war now and their time is almost up , in fact last night it was reported that president poroschenko and his family have left Ukraine because of fears for their safety.

Game over I think.