ISIS marches 21 Coptic Christians along Libyan beach and cut their heads off

[arista]

Simply because they did not follow Allah


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/16/25B83DC500000578-2955249-Film_The_men_were_marched_along_a_beach_before_bei ng_forced_to_k-a-16_1424094014576.jpg
The men were marched along a beach before being forced to kneel and beheaded simultaneously

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2955249/Egypt-launches-air-strikes-Islamic-State-terror-group-releases-video-showing-beheading-21-Egyptian-Christians-Libya.html#ixzz3RvDIwq00

[Egyptian warplanes struck
at least Islamic State targets
near the Islamist-held city of
Derna in eastern Libya today
Strikes come after ISIS-affiliated
militants beheaded 21
Egyptians Coptic Christians
in a sickening filmed massacre]



America is now considering to put Boots on the ground
they need to hurry up.

[Nedusa]

Another day, another sickening ISIS massacre . I think this must be of a concerted PR Campaign to build up public revulsion to the point where we support a new offensive in the ME.

Not sure what Country is left to invade though.....







.

[Samm]

Sad :(

If I was them I would just run off, I'm going to die anyway

[arista]

Sad :(

If I was them I would just run off, I'm going to die anyway



Yes I would Run into the sea
and out swim those Evil Isis

[Josy]

This is sickening. It needs to stop now.

[arista]

Another day, another sickening ISIS massacre . I think this must be of a concerted PR Campaign to build up public revulsion to the point where we support a new offensive in the ME.

Not sure what Country is left to invade though.....







.


Well it will not be Saudi Arabia
as they are into Allah and nothing else

[Nedusa]

Well it will not be Saudi Arabia
as they are into Allah and nothing else

Actually. ironic as it sounds Saudi Arabia would in fact be the best Country to invade then we would own all the oilfields and wouldn't need their Arms contracts.

Plus SA is the home of the 911 attackers and home to the most extreme form of Islam, so it's a win-win-win....!!!






.

[arista]

This is sickening. It needs to stop now.



Yes their Crime was not following their Allah
nothing else at all.


It will never stop.

And America's
President is taking it easy
as he ends in a year or so

[Kazanne]

OMG,I cannot imagine the horror of being the last one to be killed.disgusting,I think the Ocean would be a better way.

[Josy]

Yes their Crime was not following their Allah
nothing else at all.

It will never stop.

And America's
President is taking it easy
as he ends in a year or so

No it wasn't really, this goes wayyyy beyond religion. They are just a bunch of sadistic murdering bastards using religion as an excuse to commit these horrific crimes.

There needs to be a coordinated attack to put a stop to them for good.

[Northern Monkey]

Man if i was gonna go down like that i'd be sure to take atleast one of them feckers down with me.They need rounding up and their bollocks cutting off and burning infront of them.

[kirklancaster]

No it wasn't really, this goes wayyyy beyond religion. They are just a bunch of sadistic murdering bastards using religion as an excuse to commit these horrific crimes.

There needs to be a coordinated attack to put a stop to them for good.

:clap1: There are honestly, genuinely, sincerely NO OTHER WORDS to describe this evil.

I weep for the poor terrified victims families.

[Vicky.]

This is just ****ing disgusting. Like the rest of the things this evil group do. Tbh I don't care if this makes me as bad as them, but I would love to see that lot have the things they are doing to others done to them.

[arista]

No it wasn't really, this goes wayyyy beyond religion. They are just a bunch of sadistic murdering bastards using religion as an excuse to commit these horrific crimes.

There needs to be a coordinated attack to put a stop to them for good.


Yes but of course they use it
you must join Isis or Die in a Evil way etc



Credit to Egypt who did Send Bombers over them to try to
Kill them.

[arista]

This is just ****ing disgusting. Like the rest of the things this evil group do. Tbh I don't care if this makes me as bad as them, but I would love to see that lot have the things they are doing to others done to them.



Yes I would use Snipers
Blowing every Isis's mans head off.

[Nedusa]

Yes I would use Snipers
Blowing every Isis's mans head off.

Arista........I think you have been on the Play Station too long...:joker::joker:







.

[kirklancaster]

This is just ****ing disgusting. Like the rest of the things this evil group do. Tbh I don't care if this makes me as bad as them, but I would love to see that lot have the things they are doing to others done to them.

It doesn't make you as bad as them Vicky, it makes you human. This evil is beyond comprehension and the only thing as violent as their barbarism should be our condemnation of it.

[arista]

Arista........I think you have been on the Play Station too long...:joker::joker:







.



No I Know PS4 GTA5
is a great game in 1080P


Isis are the worst killers on earth
in a World War

[Nedusa]

No I Know PS4 GTA5
is a great game in 1080P


Isis are the worst killers on earth
in a World War

I can see the next PS or X-Box game will be called ISIS Killers - Call to Duty lol.....:laugh::laugh:




.

[arista]

I can see the next PS or X-Box game will be called ISIS Killers - Call to Duty lol.....:laugh::laugh:




.


No Isis are not worthy

[Vicky.]

It doesn't make you as bad as them Vicky, it makes you human. This evil is beyond comprehension and the only thing as violent as their barbarism should be our condemnation of it.

Well yeah, thats how I see it. But normally when anyone says something like that on here they get the response of 'well if we did that we would be just as bad' etc etc.

[Northern Monkey]

Well yeah, thats how I see it. But normally when anyone says something like that on here they get the response of 'well if we did that we would be just as bad' etc etc.See my post above:laugh:

[kirklancaster]

I will ask anyone on here a simple question;

You are standing on that beach with a sharpened sword in your hands. Kneeling trembling on the sand beneath you is a terrified innocent ordinary man - a non-combatant who has a mother and father, and probably a wife and young children. He has done nothing wrong to you or anyone else - he is not a criminal or a soldier - he is a stranger, a migrant worker trying to earn money to support his family.

Could you as a human being sever this living, breathing, terrified human's head?

No - because it is one step beyond what any human would voluntarily do to another.

Which is why I will say again, that these monsters are NOT human. They are evil subhumans pure and simple. They deserve no sympathy - that should be reserved in its entirety for the thousands of innocent humans who are their victims and the hundreds of thousands more who will become their victims if these bastards are not stopped.

There are no 'historical crimes' committed by Christians or Jews three thousand years ago or 500 years ago which can be dredged up in a feeble attempt to mitigate or excuse what these demons are doing now.

There are no economic, political, geographic, or religious reasons which mitigate or excuse the continued deliberate, cold-blooded slaughter of innocent men, woman and children by these murderers, and no words in any language to describe the horror of their barbaric, inhuman methods of killing; from shooting innocent schoolchildren, burning alive terrified humans, and beheading innocent people - none of which can ever be termed 'Military Action', and none of which can ever be justified by a claim of 'being at war'.

Soldiers are ordinary humans who conquer their fears to engage in battle in a given theater of war against other soldiers. Soldiers do not abduct and savagely murder innocent defenseless non-combatants, and nor do they wage war on terrified women and children. Soldiers do not grin and delight in such evil acts and these terrorists are cowardly evil subhumans NOT brave and valiant soldiers.

[Nedusa]

I will ask anyone on here a simple question;

You are standing on that beach with a sharpened sword in your hands. Kneeling trembling on the sand beneath you is a terrified innocent ordinary man - a non-combatant who has a mother and father, and probably a wife and young children. He has done nothing wrong to you or anyone else - he is not a criminal or a soldier - he is a stranger, a migrant worker trying to earn money to support his family.

Could you as a human being sever this living, breathing, terrified human's head?

No - because it is one step beyond what any human would voluntarily do to another.

Which is why I will say again, that these monsters are NOT human. They are evil subhumans pure and simple. They deserve no sympathy - that should be reserved in its entirety for the thousands of innocent humans who are their victims and the hundreds of thousands more who will become their victims if these bastards are not stopped.

There are no 'historical crimes' committed by Christians or Jews three thousand years ago or 500 years ago which can be dredged up in a feeble attempt to mitigate or excuse what these demons are doing now.

There are no economic, political, geographic, or religious reasons which mitigate or excuse the continued deliberate, cold-blooded slaughter of innocent men, woman and children by these murderers, and no words in any language to describe the horror of their barbaric, inhuman methods of killing; from shooting innocent schoolchildren, burning alive terrified humans, and beheading innocent people - none of which can ever be termed 'Military Action', and none of which can ever be justified by a claim of 'being at war'.

Soldiers are ordinary humans who conquer their fears to engage in battle in a given theater of war against other soldiers. Soldiers do not abduct and savagely murder innocent defenseless non-combatants, and nor do they wage war on terrified women and children. Soldiers do not grin and delight in such evil acts and these terrorists are cowardly evil subhumans NOT brave and valiant soldiers.

There are no reasons..........






.

[DemolitionRed]

Yet another shocking and barbaric act by this bunch of psychopaths.

The really odd thing about all the pictures released is, the size of the ISIS men compared to the size of the Egyptian men. Something is up with these pictures. For some reason they have been heavily photo-shopped.

Saudi is funding ISIS but its coming from wealthy private fundraisers and not the Saudi royals. ISIS has vowed to conquer Saudi Arabia after it has vanquished the regimes in Damascus and Baghdad. The problem is, Saudis are leaving their country in droves, tearing up their passports and joining ISIS. The House of Saud must be bricking themselves.

[kirklancaster]

Well yeah, thats how I see it. But normally when anyone says something like that on here they get the response of 'well if we did that we would be just as bad' etc etc.

Which is just meaningless cliched rubbish Vicky - in my opinion. Your reaction to this atrocity is perfectly understandable and in line with the rest of us.

[Nedusa]

Which is just meaningless cliched rubbish Vicky - in my opinion. Your reaction to this atrocity is perfectly understandable and in line with the rest of us.

You cannot stop these people without using force, they do not understand reason, you cannot play on their sympathies or their compassion (as they have none). you cannot plead with them or coerce them, they have no humanity and they WILL NOT stop until they hold your severed head in their hands.

So I'm afraid this is one time where our Christian values will fall on deaf ears and we must suspend our normal mindset and see these "people" for the threat they are and accept we must fight fire with fire.

If any of these "people" are located they must be vanquished without delay...no discourse, no questioning, no trials, no imprisonment...just eradication pure and simple.

Some things do not deserve to share this planet with us, and they most certainly fall into that category.........






.

[Kazanne]

Has this been on the main news today? cant say I've seen it

[arista]

Has this been on the main news today? cant say I've seen it


Yes in brief
Ch5HD 5PM News covered it well
and ITV1HD Lunchtime news


Of course on USA News
its on all of them in a bigger way

[Ninastar]

Absolutely, ****ing horrific. It still seems that a large amount of people in the UK don't give a damn about this. Barely seen this on the news. So sad.

[arista]

Ch4HD News now has a great report

[Kazanne]

Ch4HD News now has a great report

Thanks Arista

[MTVN]

It infuriates me that everyone with any sense warned of the chaos and catastrophe that would follow Western intervention in Libya. The triumphalism that followed Gaddafi's death was sickening. Remember this:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2011/10/21/1319185676584/The-Sun---21-October-2011-001.jpg

And this (Cameron and Sarkozy with Rebel leader):

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110915-sarkozy-cameron-libya-jw.photoblog900.jpg

We wanted Gaddafi gone, we gave military and financial support to the rebels, we celebrated his gruesome death, bombed cities to hell and our world leaders smugly congratulated themselves on a job well done. A great success for liberal interventionism. Yet ever since there's been chaos, civil conflict, and now Libya is another haven to murderous extremists and terrorists. Thank god we were prevented from bombing the Assad regime when we were. Everything about this is just sickening and depressing.

[Vicky.]

Jesus christ..I actually dont remember that, is that a photo of a corpse on our front page news D:

[MTVN]

Jesus christ..I actually dont remember that, is that a photo of a corpse on our front page news D:

Basically, or at least very nearly dead. The Sun weren't even the only ones

https://counterpsy.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/gaddafi.jpg

[Vicky.]

****s sake..I vaguely remember a kickoff about something like this, but I'm not sure if it was this. Was something similar though because I remember commenting about kids seeing newspapers in shops and that

[Z]

The political environment we have in the world right now is venomous on all sides, it's worryingly familiar, like the Holocaust some 70 years ago... The Saudis aren't too concerned, they're pretty good at suppressing rebellions and they have Western backing even though they don't always see eye to eye.

[arista]

The political environment we have in the world right now is venomous on all sides, it's worryingly familiar, like the Holocaust some 70 years ago... The Saudis aren't too concerned, they're pretty good at suppressing rebellions and they have Western backing even though they don't always see eye to eye.


Of Course not
they make deals

[kirklancaster]

It infuriates me that everyone with any sense warned of the chaos and catastrophe that would follow Western intervention in Libya. The triumphalism that followed Gaddafi's death was sickening. Remember this:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2011/10/21/1319185676584/The-Sun---21-October-2011-001.jpg

And this (Cameron and Sarkozy with Rebel leader):

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110915-sarkozy-cameron-libya-jw.photoblog900.jpg

We wanted Gaddafi gone, we gave military and financial support to the rebels, we celebrated his gruesome death, bombed cities to hell and our world leaders smugly congratulated themselves on a job well done. A great success for liberal interventionism. Yet ever since there's been chaos, civil conflict, and now Libya is another haven to murderous extremists and terrorists. Thank god we were prevented from bombing the Assad regime when we were. Everything about this is just sickening and depressing.

Again - I cannot fault anything you're saying MTVN. I wish we hadn't interfered in Libya, or Iraq for that matter, and I know it's the classic 'Frankenstein complex; 'Man creates Monster, Monster turns on Man', but the very painful truth is that we did interfere, and we did create Monsters, and now the bestial rampage of those monsters has to be stopped.

We have to now deal with the effects of our mistakes, because it is too late to correct those mistakes, so no amount of self-flagellation through historic guilt will do any good.

I would say, that the West's leaders would do well to heed an old adage of mine, that; "a mistake we learn from is just an experience, a mistake we don't learn from becomes a bad habit". Or in this case, a very fatal one for many innocent people.

[Helen 28]

Apparently loads of those refugees being picked up by the Italians at sea are ISIS in disguise.
Sky reckon there are between 4-6,000 trained ISIS already smuggled into Europe waiting for the call.

So not only do we have many ISIS sympathisers already here they're also being reinforced.

[arista]

Basically, or at least very nearly dead. The Sun weren't even the only ones

https://counterpsy.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/gaddafi.jpg

On Ch4HDNews tonight
a Libyan minister
said we should arm them.

No Way
look what went down in Iraq
all that Expensive USA Army Guns
and Trucks all was taken by Isis


The Only way is Boots on the ground
house by house

[user104658]

Again - I cannot fault anything you're saying MTVN. I wish we hadn't interfered in Libya, or Iraq for that matter, and I know it's the classic 'Frankenstein complex; 'Man creates Monster, Monster turns on Man', but the very painful truth is that we did interfere, and we did create Monsters, and now the bestial rampage of those monsters has to be stopped.

We have to now deal with the effects of our mistakes, because it is too late to correct those mistakes.

I 100% agree with you there Kirk, although I find it infuriating that the men and women who are sent in to give / risk their lives to correct those "mistakes" are not the men and women who made them. They seem to sleep soundly in their beds, with wine in their bellies and grins on their faces, no real care in the world, and often twice as rich for each conflict, while middle eastern civilians and US / European soldiers (and yes some civilians too) die for those "mistakes".

I put "mistakes" in inverted commas, because much like Frankenstein's, I don't believe for a second that the monster was created by mistake. Their mistake was in not realising how strong it would become and how quickly, and that they would lose control of it.

[user104658]

Absolutely, ****ing horrific. It still seems that a large amount of people in the UK don't give a damn about this. Barely seen this on the news. So sad.
Of course not. These are funny brown Christians, not normal British ones.

I don't say this to be racist or flippant. It's dispicable - but it's also the truth of why people care less.

[Helen 28]

Of course not. These are funny brown Christians, not normal British ones.

I don't say this to be racist or flippant. It's dispicable - but it's also the truth of why people care less.

Well you do sound racist and flippant.

[the truth]

I will ask anyone on here a simple question;

You are standing on that beach with a sharpened sword in your hands. Kneeling trembling on the sand beneath you is a terrified innocent ordinary man - a non-combatant who has a mother and father, and probably a wife and young children. He has done nothing wrong to you or anyone else - he is not a criminal or a soldier - he is a stranger, a migrant worker trying to earn money to support his family.

Could you as a human being sever this living, breathing, terrified human's head?

No - because it is one step beyond what any human would voluntarily do to another.

Which is why I will say again, that these monsters are NOT human. They are evil subhumans pure and simple. They deserve no sympathy - that should be reserved in its entirety for the thousands of innocent humans who are their victims and the hundreds of thousands more who will become their victims if these bastards are not stopped.

There are no 'historical crimes' committed by Christians or Jews three thousand years ago or 500 years ago which can be dredged up in a feeble attempt to mitigate or excuse what these demons are doing now.

There are no economic, political, geographic, or religious reasons which mitigate or excuse the continued deliberate, cold-blooded slaughter of innocent men, woman and children by these murderers, and no words in any language to describe the horror of their barbaric, inhuman methods of killing; from shooting innocent schoolchildren, burning alive terrified humans, and beheading innocent people - none of which can ever be termed 'Military Action', and none of which can ever be justified by a claim of 'being at war'.

Soldiers are ordinary humans who conquer their fears to engage in battle in a given theater of war against other soldiers. Soldiers do not abduct and savagely murder innocent defenseless non-combatants, and nor do they wage war on terrified women and children. Soldiers do not grin and delight in such evil acts and these terrorists are cowardly evil subhumans NOT brave and valiant soldiers.

time for action

[user104658]

Well you do sound racist and flippant.
I personally find it just as horrific no matter where these things happen or to whom so I challenge you to demonstrate how I am racist. It has been demonstrated time and time again that the British public en masse without question cares less about "different people" in "foreign places" than they do about people they feel they can relate to: i.e. Other brits, fellow Europeans, and US Americans.

Not everyone thinks like that. Obviously. But public outcry / outrage is far more muted when things happen "over there". It's indisputable.

[Kizzy]

Of course not. These are funny brown Christians, not normal British ones.

I don't say this to be racist or flippant. It's dispicable - but it's also the truth of why people care less.

I have to say I feel this way too.

[MTVN]

Again - I cannot fault anything you're saying MTVN. I wish we hadn't interfered in Libya, or Iraq for that matter, and I know it's the classic 'Frankenstein complex; 'Man creates Monster, Monster turns on Man', but the very painful truth is that we did interfere, and we did create Monsters, and now the bestial rampage of those monsters has to be stopped.

We have to now deal with the effects of our mistakes, because it is too late to correct those mistakes, so no amount of self-flagellation through historic guilt will do any good.

I would say, that the West's leaders would do well to heed an old adage of mine, that; "a mistake we learn from is just an experience, a mistake we don't learn from becomes a bad habit". Or in this case, a very fatal one for many innocent people.

You're right it is too late to correct them but unless we acknowledge them we risk repeating them. The West seems notoriously slow to learn from its mistakes, and very prone to repeating them thinking that 'this time will be different', 'we'll do it right this time'. IMO the West is long overdue a critical re-evaluation of its foreign policy and not just in the Middle East, but I'm worried it won't happen. For clarity: that obviously does not mean that this or anything else done by IS in their reign of terror can be excused. It is a dark time for the world.

[Ninastar]

Of course not. These are funny brown Christians, not normal British ones.

I don't say this to be racist or flippant. It's dispicable - but it's also the truth of why people care less.

I think its more to do with the fact they are Christian, than anything else. If it happened to Muslims, social media and news channels would go mental. JMO, of course.

[user104658]

I think its more to do with the fact they are Christian, than anything else. If it happened to Muslims, social media and news channels would go mental. JMO, of course.
U avvin a larf? ISIS are butchering scores of mostly Muslims constantly and it's barely reported at all! Certainly not in the tabloids. This only got a nod because it's Christians. But just a nod. Because like I said, foreign Johnny Christians not proper ones.

[Ninastar]

U avvin a larf? ISIS are butchering scores of mostly Muslims constantly and it's barely reported at all! Certainly not in the tabloids. This only got a nod because it's Christians. But just a nod. Because like I said, foreign Johnny Christians not proper ones.

Yeah, they kill literally anyone and it's disgusting. But only the bigger things are reported and I'd say it's more or less equal what gets reported. It's just people on the interwebs have different priorities.

[the truth]

time for the whole damned world to unite and go after them

[kirklancaster]

time for the whole damned world to unite and go after them

I totally agree.

[Nedusa]

time for the whole damned world to unite and go after them

They'll get theirs........live by the sword, die by the sword

Payback normally is a Bitch............:spin:






.

[billy123]

They'll get theirs........live by the sword, die by the sword

Payback normally is a Bitch............:spin:
Most of the predominantly muslim nations on earth are out for their blood now but you wouldnt think it by some of the moronic posts by people on here that claim that the muslims have failed to condemn acts by these nutters.

[the truth]

Most of the predominantly muslim nations on earth are out for their blood now but you wouldnt think it by some of the moronic posts by people on here that claim that the muslims have failed to condemn acts by these nutters.

they unelected muslim council for Britain need to do far more as do other muslim leaders across the UK and the world. the quran does NOT say all non muslims are infidels who should be killed and these muslim leaders need to loudly and boldly pronounce this and denounce these psychotic misinterpretations of their book

[Nedusa]

they unelected muslim council for Britain need to do far more as do other muslim leaders across the UK and the world. the quran does NOT say all non muslims are infidels who should be killed and these muslim leaders need to loudly and boldly pronounce this and denounce these psychotic misinterpretations of their book

I 100% wholeheartedly agree.......and have been saying this for ages. These leaders need to stand up and publicly declare that the Quran does not say in any interpretation that Non Muslims should be killed.

By not declaring this it is adding suspicion and fear to millions of non Muslim people who witness the terrible events carried out by these extremist fanatics.

In fact it should be the first thing these Muslim leaders actually do...but they don't........nothing.........only silence...:shrug::shrug:





.

[Kizzy]

I 100% wholeheartedly agree.......and have been saying this for ages. These leaders need to stand up and publicly declare that the Quran does not say in any interpretation that Non Muslims should be killed.

By not declaring this it is adding suspicion and fear to millions of non Muslim people who witness the terrible events carried out by these extremist fanatics.

In fact it should be the first thing these Muslim leaders actually do...but they don't........nothing.........only silence...:shrug::shrug:


Really?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/06/muslim-clerics-denounce-jordanian-pilot-execution-kasasbeh

Why is this '.' always in your posts? it make's it very awkward to reply to you.

[Nedusa]

Really?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/06/muslim-clerics-denounce-jordanian-pilot-execution-kasasbeh

Why is this '.' always in your posts? it make's it very awkward to reply to you.

Oh....do you mean the "." I put at the bottom of my posts ?

I normally put that in to put some space between my post narrative and my signature avatar (cat)

I didn't realise it was affecting the way you post replies to me ?

[MTVN]

Muslim Council of Britain Express Solidarity With Jewish Community After Paris Kosher Supermarket Deaths (http://www.mcb.org.uk/mcb-paris-kosher-supermarket-090115/)

Paris Murders are a Greater Insult to Islam: Muslim Council of Britain Statement on Charlie Hebdo Massacre (http://www.mcb.org.uk/paris-murders-jan-08-15/)

Terrorists Can Not Divide Us: Muslim Council of Britain Organises Inter-Faith Solidarity Meeting After Paris Attacks

Alan Henning’s Murder a Despicable Act, Offensive to Muslims (http://www.mcb.org.uk/alan-hennings-murder-despicable-act-offensive-muslims/)

Not in our Name: British Muslims Condemn the Barbarity of ISIS (http://www.mcb.org.uk/not-in-our-name-british-muslims-condemn-the-barbarity-of-isis/)

Muslim Council of Britain Condemns Yet Another Murder in Iraq (http://www.mcb.org.uk/mcb-condemns-murder-of-stephen-sotloff/)

:shrug:

Took me literally 5 minutes to find these and many Muslims groups are repeatedly denouncing extremism and at the forefront of attempts to combat radicalisation in the UK. The reality is also though that Islam is not a homogeneous entity whose nature is preprogrammed, it can manifest itself in literally hundreds of different ways, it's silly to try and group all Muslims together as if they bear some sort of collective responsibility

[Nedusa]

Really?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/06/muslim-clerics-denounce-jordanian-pilot-execution-kasasbeh

Why is this '.' always in your posts? it make's it very awkward to reply to you.


Also......no point posting a link to the guardian which may show some Muslim Cleric confirming what I referred to earlier.

We need massive, media wide Publicity on ALL major news channels plus TV debates primetime so everybody , everybody in the Country is in no doubt what the official Muslim position on this issue is.

[Nedusa]

Muslim Council of Britain Express Solidarity With Jewish Community After Paris Kosher Supermarket Deaths (http://www.mcb.org.uk/mcb-paris-kosher-supermarket-090115/)

Paris Murders are a Greater Insult to Islam: Muslim Council of Britain Statement on Charlie Hebdo Massacre (http://www.mcb.org.uk/paris-murders-jan-08-15/)

Terrorists Can Not Divide Us: Muslim Council of Britain Organises Inter-Faith Solidarity Meeting After Paris Attacks

Alan Henning’s Murder a Despicable Act, Offensive to Muslims (http://www.mcb.org.uk/alan-hennings-murder-despicable-act-offensive-muslims/)

Not in our Name: British Muslims Condemn the Barbarity of ISIS (http://www.mcb.org.uk/not-in-our-name-british-muslims-condemn-the-barbarity-of-isis/)

Muslim Council of Britain Condemns Yet Another Murder in Iraq (http://www.mcb.org.uk/mcb-condemns-murder-of-stephen-sotloff/)

:shrug:

Took me literally 5 minutes to find these and many Muslims groups are repeatedly denouncing extremism and at the forefront of attempts to combat radicalisation in the UK. The reality is also though that Islam is not a homogeneous entity whose nature is preprogrammed, it can manifest itself in literally hundreds of different ways, it's silly to try and group all Muslims together as if they bear some sort of collective responsibility

Sorry, but denouncing extremism is NOT good enough, these leaders are only denouncing the methods these extremists use NOT their ideals.

This is the core of the problem, the critical issue, they must proclaim their faith , their Holy Book does NOT in any interpretation allow the killing of Non Muslims/Infidels.

This is where they must start, they have to reform their faith, explain to ALL concerned that it does not advocate murdering innocent people.

By not embarking on a Nationwide media offensive to show Islam as a peaceful religion that can coexist with all other religions, they speak volumes to Non Muslims who are left fearful and mistrustful of the real aims and ambitions of this sinister faith.




.

[Kizzy]

Also......no point posting a link to the guardian which may show some Muslim Cleric confirming what I referred to earlier.

We need massive, media wide Publicity on ALL major news channels plus TV debates primetime so everybody , everybody in the Country is in no doubt what the official Muslim position on this issue is.

What?... because it's reported on in the Guardian the Muslims demonstrating are not good enough?

What about these Women, you do realise that by speaking out that is a huge risk to all that do an their families here in the west?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11116854/Young-Muslim-women-are-speaking-out-against-the-Islamic-State-in-on-streets-of-London.html

[user104658]

Oh....do you mean the "." I put at the bottom of my posts ?

I normally put that in to put some space between my post narrative and my signature avatar (cat)

I didn't realise it was affecting the way you post replies to me ?

I 100% genuinely thought it was you saying, "Full Stop". Like, "that's the bottom line!" :hehe:

(I'm now sort of wondering... would it not make more sense to put the dividing space IN the signature itself? It would shave like 0.2 seconds of effort off of every post... just a thought...)

[MTVN]

Sorry, but denouncing extremism is NOT good enough, these leaders are only denouncing the methods these extremists use NOT their ideals.

This is the core of the problem, the critical issue, they must proclaim their faith , their Holy Book does NOT in any interpretation allow the killing of Non Muslims/Infidels.

This is where they must start, they have to reform their faith, explain to ALL concerned that it does not advocate murdering innocent people.

By not embarking on a Nationwide media offensive to show Islam as a peaceful religion that can coexist with all other religions, they speak volumes to Non Muslims who are left fearful and mistrustful of the real aims and ambitions of this sinister faith.




.

There is plenty of theological and scriptural opposition to extremism as well but of course the Quran has been used in different ways, by different people, in different countries, in different time periods, to justify different things. I can't admit to ever having read it but I'm sure if you wanted to you could trawl through it to find evidence of Islam being peaceful or evidence of Islam being violent.

[Nedusa]

I 100% genuinely thought it was you saying, "Full Stop". Like, "that's the bottom line!" :hehe:

(I'm now sort of wondering... would it not make more sense to put the dividing space IN the signature itself? It would shave like 0.2 seconds of effort off of every post... just a thought...)

Ye maybe you are right, or perhaps I could put my emoticons at the bottom instead of the "."





:wavey::wavey:

[DemolitionRed]

I would of thought that the present teachings in western Mosques are preaching about their ideals regarding Islam. Apart from very specific Islamic newspapers that only Muslims read, there isn't a newspaper in this country that would be interested in publishing a Muslim clerics article on the truisms of Islam and even if they did, I doubt it would be read by the masses.

I don't know if anyone has noticed but our main media channels have calmed down about what its publishing. Its refusing to give ISIS the publicity it needs which is fantastic. Unfortunately, social media sites are still giving a huge amount of publicity to this barbaric group and in doing so we are indiscriminately helping their case.

[Niamh.]

Ye maybe you are right, or perhaps I could put my emoticons at the bottom instead of the "."





:wavey::wavey:

why do you need to have a gap at all? There is a line there indicating it your sig :laugh:

[Nedusa]

why do you need to have a gap at all? There is a line there indicating it your sig :laugh:

Yes, you're right don't know why I thought I needed to do that. In future will just put in the text then post.

[kirklancaster]

why do you need to have a gap at all? There is a line there indicating it your sig :laugh:

:laugh: And Nedusa is so really intelligent too.

[letmein]

Yes their Crime was not following their Allah
nothing else at all.


It will never stop.

And America's
President is taking it easy
as he ends in a year or so

Arista, you're not American. You don't understand the US. You get all your garbage from Right-wing media. Stick to what you know -- the UK.

[MTVN]

Never thought I'd agree with Farage so strongly: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/when-will-the-west-own-up-to-the-role-its-played-in-the-implosion-of-libya-10057749.html

Excerpt:

A further irony of the earlier part of the bombing campaign was that the Royal Air Force was making 3,500-mile round trips from Norfolk because Britain had no active aircraft carriers. We were told that the mission was a necessity to stop a potential massacre in Benghazi. We had decided to take sides with the “rebels” against Colonel Gaddafi. As an opponent of the bombings, one of my principle concerns, which I raised at the time, was: did we know who the rebels were, and was it not a fact that the British Army in Iraq had found that many of the most extreme militants had indeed come from Eastern Libya?

These comments and the objections of a dozen MPs were simply brushed aside by a media consensus that our political class must be right. I am in no doubt that Libya after our intervention is in a far worse state than it was under Gaddafi. I know that when I say these things, I will be portrayed as being a Gaddafi supporter. But not only is that untrue, it is also not the point.

Libya is one of an endless series of military interventions in which we have left things worse than before we intervened. And you only need to look as far as how Christians are targeted across the Middle East and North Africa region to see what kind of road we have paved for the terrorists of Isis. In Iraq, in Syria, in Libya and beyond, Christians have not only been thrown to the lions as a result of our hasty, shoestring interventions, but what are we doing to assist them now that our government has created the conditions in which they can be so easily rounded on? I would say whatever it is, it is nowhere near enough given our complicity in their slaughter.

[kirklancaster]

Never thought I'd agree with Farage so strongly: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/when-will-the-west-own-up-to-the-role-its-played-in-the-implosion-of-libya-10057749.html

Excerpt:

He is absolutely correct in what he says, and I have found myself agreeing with other comments he has made. The TRUTH is the truth - no matter from who it issues. Personal political persuasion should never prevent any of us from ignoring the truth just because it is said by someone whose politics we don't subscribe to, because the truth is such a rare commodity in today's politics.

[Kizzy]

We have Illustrious, Cameron got rid of Invincible and Ark Royal.

[Tom4784]

There's plenty of resentment and denouncement towards Isis from the Muslim community and it's no wonder, Muslims have suffered at IS' hands more than anyone.

It annoys me when people say that Muslims aren't vocal enough against Isis, they are it's just that the media, by large, are not interested in making muslims look sympathetic. The sad thing is, if the mainstream media isn't covering a story than a large part of the public will simply believe it's not happening.

I do actually agree with Farage, Gadaffi and Saddam were evil but by removing them (and not setting up stable replacements) we've created a power vacuum in the Middle East which has given rise to Isis. There's very little point in blaming Islam as a whole when we're largely to blame for Isis' current position of power in the world. Isis would still exist without Islam but they wouldn't exist as they are today if it weren't for our help.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Perhaps the way forward is to realise that any religion based on a fictitious and expansive book will always be open to any interpretation you care to apply and that because of that we shut down churches and mosques and start educating children that gods do not exist?

just a thought

[AnnieK]

Perhaps the way forward is to realise that any religion based on a fictitious and expansive book will always be open to any interpretation you care to apply and that because of that we shut down churches and mosques and start educating children that gods do not exist?

just a thought

Because the minute you drive religion underground more and more of these religious extremist groups will appear...

[coffee]

I have to change what I said out of fear lol

[DemolitionRed]

There's plenty of resentment and denouncement towards Isis from the Muslim community and it's no wonder, Muslims have suffered at IS' hands more than anyone.

It annoys me when people say that Muslims aren't vocal enough against Isis, they are it's just that the media, by large, are not interested in making muslims look sympathetic. The sad thing is, if the mainstream media isn't covering a story than a large part of the public will simply believe it's not happening.

I do actually agree with Farage, Gadaffi and Saddam were evil but by removing them (and not setting up stable replacements) we've created a power vacuum in the Middle East which has given rise to Isis. There's very little point in blaming Islam as a whole when we're largely to blame for Isis' current position of power in the world. Isis would still exist without Islam but they wouldn't exist as they are today if it weren't for our help.

Good post Dezzy, its time we stopped trying to pass the buck. Most people with more than a couple of brain cells fully understand that Islam does not = ISIS and those that don't wouldn't bother reading what British Muslim Clerics have to say. Muslim people over here are no more accountable for what is going on in Syria than the rest of us and they certainly don't need to justify their faith to us.

My sister lives in Leeds and tells me that many Muslim women are abandoning the head scarf because they fear being treated like a pox on this country.

[kirklancaster]

There's plenty of resentment and denouncement towards Isis from the Muslim community and it's no wonder, Muslims have suffered at IS' hands more than anyone.

It annoys me when people say that Muslims aren't vocal enough against Isis, they are it's just that the media, by large, are not interested in making muslims look sympathetic. The sad thing is, if the mainstream media isn't covering a story than a large part of the public will simply believe it's not happening.

I do actually agree with Farage, Gadaffi and Saddam were evil but by removing them (and not setting up stable replacements) we've created a **** Iraq and Syria. wer vacuum in the Middle East which has given rise to Isis. There's very little point in blaming Islam as a whole when we're largely to blame for Isis' current position of power in the world. Isis would still exist without Islam but they wouldn't exist as they are today if it weren't for our help.

Two points:

No one on this forum has ever blamed Islam as a whole for ISIS or terrorism.

There is no way that ISIS could exist without Islam. It actually means; Islamic State of Iraq and Syria.

[Tom4784]

Two points:

No one on this forum has ever blamed Islam as a whole for ISIS or terrorism.

There is no way that ISIS could exist without Islam. It actually means; Islamic State of Iraq and Syria.

Quite a pedantic point, they would still be the same group but with a different name. The Islamic angle is just for control and recruitment, if Islam wasn't a thing they would just pick another religion to use to justify their actions and radicalise people into joining them.

[kirklancaster]

Good post Dezzy, its time we stopped trying to pass the buck. Most people with more than a couple of brain cells fully understand that Islam does not = ISIS and those that don't wouldn't bother reading what British Muslim Clerics have to say. Muslim people over here are no more accountable for what is going on in Syria than the rest of us and they certainly don't need to justify their faith to us.

My sister lives in Leeds and tells me that many Muslim women are abandoning the head scarf because they fear being treated like a pox on this country.

Ordinary Muslims all over the world, are not culpable in the inhuman atrocities being carried out in the name of Islam by IS, ISIS, or ISIL, or Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, or any other terrorist group, so it is immensely regrettable that some Muslim women in Leeds are abandoning the head scarf because they fear being treated like a pox on this country Demo.

To put this fact into perspective though, I feel that they are fortunate to be living in a democracy where their only fear is the imagined derision or rebuke by the odd mindless moron who may perceive all Muslims to be to blame for terrorism, and thus far, there is no evidence that any such feared rebuke has occurred.

Unlike the Christians in Syria and Iraq and Nigeria, who are being beheaded and crucified in their thousands by Islamic extremists simply for being Christians. They do not have the freedom to simply remove a piece of clothing in the hope that it will render identification of their faith more difficult, and the penalty for being identified as Christian is not mere rebuke or insult, but torture and death.

These Christians are living, breathing, human beings with families, who have done no wrong to anyone, but who are having their heads severed and being crucified by terrorist demons who are, after all, Muslims.

The Muslim women in Leeds - and elsewhere in the UK - can at least move around freely and live their lives without fear of being abducted and sold as sex slaves by Muslim terrorists as in Nigeria, or raped and slaughtered by their Muslim brothers simply for belonging to the wrong branch of Islam as in Syria and Iraq.

And what of Jews?

Whilst I see repeated condemnation on this forum for anyone who is even (wrongly) perceived to be tarring "all Muslims with the extremist brush", I do not witness the same principle being applied to the poor innocent Jewish people throughout the world who are now suffering verbal and physical violence at the hands of anti-Semitic thugs and cretins, who are blaming them for the actions of Israel.

Yet, non Israeli domiciled Jews are no more to blame for what is occurring between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah in Israel/Palestine, than ordinary Muslims are for the acts of ISIS.

Another very relevant fact is, that Israeli military actions - no matter whether one views them as offensive or defensive - fall within the parameters of recognised and accepted orthodox 'warfare' and is strictly confined to that tiny area of the Middle East which is Israel/Palestine, whereas the actions of all Islamic terrorist groups exceed even the hitherto accepted definition of the word 'terrorism', and its malignancy spreads all over the world like a cancer.

Further, of course, the barbaric slaughter by Islamic Jihadists of innocents is not merely confined to Christians or Jews, but other Muslims, other religious groups and even atheists, or indeed any other humans who do not fit in with their ideologies.

So the imagined fears of some Muslim women living in Leeds, is regrettable, but let's keep it in perspective.

[InOne]

So are people tying to say this is absolutely nothing to do with Islam?

[kirklancaster]

Perhaps the way forward is to realise that any religion based on a fictitious and expansive book will always be open to any interpretation you care to apply and that because of that we shut down churches and mosques and start educating children that gods do not exist?

just a thought

Are you seriously suggesting LT, that the Judeo Christian bible is on a par with the Quran? Or that its text can be wrongfully interpreted today to cause Jews or Christians to become extremist and embark on a catalogue of terrorist inhuman atrocities similar to IS, ISIL, ISIS, Boko Haram or Al Qaeda?

Do you really think that if Christianity and Judaism disappeared overnight along with all Synagogues and Churches, and Jews and Christians, that IS, ISIL, ISIS, Boko Haram or Al Qaeda terrorists would just as suddenly down weapons and cease their mission to Islamify the entire world?

And I have posted lengthy and factual posts which prove that wars fought because of religion account for less than 12% of all recorded wars, and half of this figure is made up of Islamic wars, so only 6% is attributable to other religions. Obviously, this means that 88% of all recorded wars have secular causes. So where would the eradication of all religion lead to a more peaceful or even rational world?

Why mention Christianity in the same breath as Islam anyway? And why close churches?

It is not Christians who are shooting hundreds of innocent little schoolchildren, setting innocent schoolteachers ablaze, beheading thousands of terrified innocent non-combatants, crucifying Christians, and abducting and raping hundreds of schoolgirls then selling them off as sex slaves.

[Tom4784]

Are you seriously suggesting LT, that the Judeo Christian bible is on a par with the Quran? Or that its text can be wrongfully interpreted today to cause Jews or Christians to become extremist and embark on a catalogue of terrorist inhuman atrocities similar to IS, ISIL, ISIS, Boko Haram or Al Qaeda?

Do you really think that if Christianity and Judaism disappeared overnight along with all Synagogues and Churches, and Jews and Christians, that IS, ISIL, ISIS, Boko Haram or Al Qaeda terrorists would just as suddenly down weapons and cease their mission to Islamify the entire world?

And I have posted lengthy and factual posts which prove that wars fought because of religion account for less than 12% of all recorded wars, and half of this figure is made up of Islamic wars, so only 6% is attributable to other religions. Obviously, this means that 88% of all recorded wars have secular causes. So where would the eradication of all religion lead to a more peaceful or even rational world?

Why mention Christianity in the same breath as Islam anyway? And why close churches?

It is not Christians who are shooting hundreds of innocent little schoolchildren, setting innocent schoolteachers ablaze, beheading thousands of terrified innocent non-combatants, crucifying Christians, and abducting and raping hundreds of schoolgirls then selling them off as sex slaves.

Yes, if you don't think that the Bible isn't as brutal as the Qu'ran then you must not have read it very well. Any religion has the potential to be used to justify radical and terrorist actions. For all we know the next big terrorist threat in the future could be from an extremist Christian or Jewish group. Any and all the religions have the potential to be misused to create the next Isis, religious terrorism is not a new thing and it did not begin with Islam and it won't end with it either.

You are purposely misrepresenting his point to suit your own argument. LT said ALL religion, not just Christianity and Judaism so it's downright silly just to focus on those two to discredit him. You would still get groups like Isis because even now, they only use Islam to radicalise the jaded and because it benefits them. Isis weren't created by Islam, they were created by our actions in Iraq and Syria. Aside from that though, a world without organised religion would largely be a better place to live.

It's not just about war, Religion is a big reason why homophobia exists and why not everyone in this world is equal and all religions have been used to justify crimes at some point. Organised Religion is the root of most of the evil in this world.

It's not the Muslims either, just an extreme minority of them so why are you trying to tar them all with the same brush? Do you think all Catholics should be held accountable for the actions of a few priests? Should all Christians have to answer to terrorist attacks by White Supremacist groups who often use the slavery related passages in the bible to justify their cruelty? I'm guessing you don't so I don't know why you think it's okay to pick and choose. All religions are ultimately the same, just worded differently, so you can't pick or choose which ones are 'evil' and which ones are 'good'. It's all or nothing.

[Livia]

This isn't about religion. ISIS are not Muslims, they're fascist Islamic terrorists... religion has very little to do with it.

[Kizzy]

'It is not Christians who are shooting hundreds of innocent little schoolchildren, setting innocent schoolteachers ablaze, beheading thousands of terrified innocent non-combatants, crucifying Christians, and abducting and raping hundreds of schoolgirls then selling them off as sex slaves.'

It's not like it's never happened though is it?... All throughout history it'd peppered with atrocities committed in the name of Christianity from Tudor times to the Victorian colonialists.

[Josy]

This isn't about religion. ISIS are not Muslims, they're fascist Islamic terrorists... religion has very little to do with it.

Yep, I said pretty much the same thing on the first page of this debate.

[DemolitionRed]

Whilst I see repeated condemnation on this forum for anyone who is even (wrongly) perceived to be tarring "all Muslims with the extremist brush", I do not witness the same principle being applied to the poor innocent Jewish people throughout the world who are now suffering verbal and physical violence at the hands of anti-Semitic thugs and cretins, who are blaming them for the actions of Israel.



As the far right grows across Europe, unfortunately we are going to see more and more of this. Jews, Muslims, blacks and Asians will all be targeted. I was talking about Muslims here because this is what this thread is about.

what I was referring to in my last post was about British Muslims taking more responsibility for what is happening in Syria. Muslims have spoken out but for some here its not enough, they want to see more. My initial argument was and still is; no main stream media will give these people prime time tv spots or tabloid space. When I recently mentioned a Muslim cleric at Speakers Corner, it was scrutinized and condemned as irrelevant. If the media won't give these people the space for expression, what are they to do?

Lets not name deaths by a persons religious following but by the word "human" many thousands of humans have been killed at the hands of ISIS and Boko Harem rebels. Both ISIS and BH are evil terrorists who need to be stopped. Religion doesn't put more value on a life; murder is murder...life is life.

All of us who live in a democracy are fortunate but some of us are more fortunate than others during this conflict in Africa and the Middle East. As unrest in the west escalates we will undoubtedly witness more anti-Islam attitudes. As a none Muslim I don't wake up in the morning worrying if my family are safe back in Syria or Nigeria; nor do I wonder if I can ever go back to the country I or my mother was born in. I would have to accept an amount of hatred towards me if I was a Muslim or a Jew living in Europe.

If you google papers written on the sudden growth of far right Britain, there is plenty of documentation regarding fear of Muslims and fear from Muslims living here.

[kirklancaster]

Yes, if you don't think that the Bible isn't as brutal as the Qu'ran then you must not have read it very well. Any religion has the potential to be used to justify radical and terrorist actions. For all we know the next big terrorist threat in the future could be from an extremist Christian or Jewish group. Any and all the religions have the potential to be misused to create the next Isis, religious terrorism is not a new thing and it did not begin with Islam and it won't end with it either.





[COLOR="purple"]It's not the Muslims either, just an extreme minority of them so why are you trying to tar them all with the same brush? Do you think all Catholics should be held accountable for the actions of a few priests? Should all Christians have to answer to terrorist attacks by White Supremacist groups who often use the slavery related passages in the bible to justify their cruelty? I'm guessing you don't so I don't know why you think it's okay to pick and choose. All religions are ultimately the same, just worded differently, so you can't pick or choose which ones are 'evil' and which ones are 'good'. It's all or nothing.

:laugh: What are you talking about? This post is yet an other example of hysterical over reaction, which barely suppresses an irrational anger, and is littered with fallacies and misrepresentation. For example:

FALLACY No. 1) "You are purposely misrepresenting his point to suit your own argument. LT said ALL religion, not just Christianity and Judaism so it's downright silly just to focus on those two to discredit him."

FACTS: I am quite certain that LT is intelligent enough to answer for himself, and to know that I have made no attempt to "discredit" him. I responded civilly and intelligently to his post with valid points based strictly upon what he said.

His "we shut down churches and mosques" can mean nothing other than Christianity and Islam because ONLY Christianity has churches and ONLY Islam has Mosques. Therefore, by including these two in the same sentence, LT was "mentioning them in the same breath". THEREFORE, WHEN I WROTE:

"Why mention Christianity in the same breath as Islam anyway? And why close churches?"

My response and the question in it, are perfectly reasonable and not "silly" as you falsely claim.

So, NEXT: :laugh:

FALLACY No.2: "LT said ALL religion, not just Christianity and Judaism".

FACTS: LT most certainly did NOT say ALL religion; he actually said;

" Perhaps the way forward is to realise that any religion based on a fictitious and expansive book will always be open to any interpretation you care to apply"

And 'ALL RELIGION', and "ANY RELIGION BASED ON A FICTITIOUS" book are completely different in intent, meaning and implication, because the former means ALL religion, whilst the latter specifically means ONLY religion based upon a Holy Book, which, given the FACT that LT includes only CHURCHES and MOSQUES in the latter part of his statement, can ONLY MEAN that "ANY religion based on a fictitious book" is CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM, and CAN ONLY MEAN that the Holy Books referred to are The Judeo Christian HOLY BIBLE, and the Islamic QURAN.

So, NEXT: :laugh:

FALLACY No. 3: "It's not just about war",

FACTS:

In the context of this thread IT IS ALL ABOUT WAR. In their own words and by their own declaration, a war started against the rest of humanity by Islamic Fundamentalist demons inspired by both their religion and the un-corrupted words of Allah directly received by their Holy Prophet Muhammad from the Arch Angel Gabriel.

So we can hypothesise all we want, but it is redundant and ridiculous to do so when we have the Jihadist's own repeated testimony that is that this is indeed a war.

So, NEXT: :laugh:

FALLACY No.4: "Organised Religion is the root of most of the evil in this world."

FACTS: There are no facts to corroborate your statement but plenty which refute it:

From R. J. Rummel’s work ‘Lethal Politics and Death by Government’:.

Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost
• Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
• Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
• Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
• Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
• Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
• Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
• Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Rummel says: “Almost 170 million men, women and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any other of a myriad of ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not germs.”

What of Non-State murders?

Abul Djabar killed 65 men and boys in Afghanistan by strangling them with turbans while raping them and was suspected of over 300 murders.

Javad Iqbal Mughal killed 100 boys Lahore, Pakistan.

Luis Garavo killed 172 children in Colombia but suspected of over 400 murders.

The historical list totals many thousands and include many more familiar names, from Americans such as Gary Ridgeway (90 victims) and Jeffrey Dahmer, to home-grown monsters such as Harold Shipman (up to 297 victims) and Peter Sutcliffe and Fred and Rose West, and all with not a religious motive in sight.

But hey, let’s not stop here; perhaps our streets and homes would be safer if we rid the world of all religion?

Let’s just look at a couple of statistics from The Office of National Statistics for 2014:

• Latest figures from the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) show that, for the offences it covers, there were an estimated 7.0 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over) in England and Wales
• The numbers of rapes (24,043) and other sexual offences (48,934) are the highest recorded by the police since 2002/03.

7 Million Incidents of crime in one year, and this is just ‘reported’ crime AND NOT ONE RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED CRIME IN SIGHT.

So, NEXT: :laugh:

FALLACY No. 5: "Isis weren't created by Islam, they were created by our actions in Iraq and Syria".

FACTS: As I - and others - have already stated many times; the West's interference in Libya, Syria and Iraq, did create a 'power vacuum' which aided ISIS's growth, but it is totally ridiculous and dangerous, to claim that WE CREATED ISIS. Islam did not even create ISIS - rather that ISIS claimed Islam to excuse its barbaric and demonic war on the rest of humanity - including Muslims.

So, NEXT:

FALLACY No. 6: "It's not the Muslims either, just an extreme minority of them."

FACTS: Extreme or not, ISIS ARE MUSLIM.

So NEXT:

FALLACY No. 7: "so why are you trying to tar them all with the same brush?"

FACTS: Please stop accusing me of this ridiculous CLICHED crap that I am "tarring all Muslims with the same brush" It is thoroughly dishonest and unfair and - once again - I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME AND OTHER READERS OF THIS THREAD JUST WHERE I HAVE EVER SAID THIS OR DONE THIS, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT. THEREFORE IT IS DISGRACEFUL TO KEEP REPEATING THIS SAME LIE.

So NEXT:

FALLACY No. 8: "Yes, if you don't think that the Bible isn't as brutal as the Qu'ran then you must not have read it very well. Any religion has the potential to be used to justify radical and terrorist actions."

FACTS: I have read the BIBLE and the QURAN, own my own copies of both, and still read both almost daily.

The Old Testament of The Judeo Christian Bible does contain violence, but I have posted very detail FACTUAL posts on this subject on other threads which you have subscribed to, so why do you persist in trotting out this same fallacy? Ah well; an excerpt:

"NOWHERE in the New Testament is there any incitement for followers to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers and I defy anyone on here to provide evidence to the contrary.

Even the violence within the Old Testament is solely bound by historical context and specific only to the era in which the text was written, as distinct from the open-ended commands throughout the Quran which compel faithful Muslims to to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers. These commands are not era specific, and have no predetermined time limit, so are as relevant and applicable for faithful Muslims today as they were to faithful Muslims in Muhammad's time. Which explains the demonic atrocities still being perpetrated in Allah's name after 1500 years."

Big difference uh?

[Tom4784]

Yeah, not gonna read all that noise.

[kirklancaster]

Yeah, not gonna read all that noise.

Why not I was forced to read through all the 'noise' and fallacy which prompted my 'noise' in response. Debate and discussion is impossible without a thorough knowledge of all the relevant facts, so your response above is typical, and confirms my suspicions that you do not know what you are talking about because you do not actually read and understand the posts which you continually criticise, and have not even read the Quran or Bible.

Nuff said.

[Kizzy]

:laugh: What are you talking about? This post is yet an other example of hysterical over reaction, which barely suppresses an irrational anger, and is littered with fallacies and misrepresentation. For example:

FALLACY No. 1) "You are purposely misrepresenting his point to suit your own argument.[/COLOR] LT said ALL religion, not just Christianity and Judaism so it's downright silly just to focus on those two to discredit him."

FACTS: I am quite certain that LT is intelligent enough to answer for himself, and to know that I have made no attempt to "discredit" him. I responded civilly and intelligently to his post with valid points based strictly upon what he said.

His "we shut down churches and mosques" can mean nothing other than Christianity and Islam because ONLY Christianity has churches and ONLY Islam has Mosques. Therefore, by including these two in the same sentence, LT was "mentioning them in the same breath". THEREFORE, WHEN I WROTE:

"Why mention Christianity in the same breath as Islam anyway? And why close churches?"

My response and the question in it, are perfectly reasonable and not "silly" as you falsely claim.

So, NEXT: :laugh:

FALLACY No.2: "LT said ALL religion, not just Christianity and Judaism".

FACTS: LT most certainly did NOT say ALL religion; he actually said;

" Perhaps the way forward is to realise that any religion based on a fictitious and expansive book will always be open to any interpretation you care to apply"

And 'ALL RELIGION', and "ANY RELIGION BASED ON A FICTITIOUS" book are completely different in intent, meaning and implication, because the former means ALL religion, whilst the latter specifically means ONLY religion based upon a Holy Book, which, given the FACT that LT includes only CHURCHES and MOSQUES in the latter part of his statement, can ONLY MEAN that "ANY religion based on a fictitious book" is CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM, and CAN ONLY MEAN that the Holy Books referred to are The Judeo Christian HOLY BIBLE, and the Islamic QURAN.

So, NEXT: :laugh:

FALLACY No. 3: "It's not just about war",

FACTS:

In the context of this thread IT IS ALL ABOUT WAR. In their own words and by their own declaration, a war started against the rest of humanity by Islamic Fundamentalist demons inspired by both their religion and the un-corrupted words of Allah directly received by their Holy Prophet Muhammad from the Arch Angel Gabriel.

So we can hypothesise all we want, but it is redundant and ridiculous to do so when we have the Jihadist's own repeated testimony that is that this is indeed a war.

So, NEXT: :laugh:

FALLACY No.4: "Organised Religion is the root of most of the evil in this world."

FACTS: There are no facts to corroborate your statement but plenty which refute it:

From R. J. Rummel’s work ‘Lethal Politics and Death by Government’:.

Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost
• Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
• Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
• Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
• Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
• Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
• Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
• Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Rummel says: “Almost 170 million men, women and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any other of a myriad of ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not germs.”

What of Non-State murders?

Abul Djabar killed 65 men and boys in Afghanistan by strangling them with turbans while raping them and was suspected of over 300 murders.

Javad Iqbal Mughal killed 100 boys Lahore, Pakistan.

Luis Garavo killed 172 children in Colombia but suspected of over 400 murders.

The historical list totals many thousands and include many more familiar names, from Americans such as Gary Ridgeway (90 victims) and Jeffrey Dahmer, to home-grown monsters such as Harold Shipman (up to 297 victims) and Peter Sutcliffe and Fred and Rose West, and all with not a religious motive in sight.

But hey, let’s not stop here; perhaps our streets and homes would be safer if we rid the world of all religion?

Let’s just look at a couple of statistics from The Office of National Statistics for 2014:

• Latest figures from the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) show that, for the offences it covers, there were an estimated 7.0 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over) in England and Wales
• The numbers of rapes (24,043) and other sexual offences (48,934) are the highest recorded by the police since 2002/03.

7 Million Incidents of crime in one year, and this is just ‘reported’ crime AND NOT ONE RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED CRIME IN SIGHT.

So, NEXT: :laugh:

FALLACY No. 5: "Isis weren't created by Islam, they were created by our actions in Iraq and Syria".

FACTS: As I - and others - have already stated many times; the West's interference in Libya, Syria and Iraq, did create a 'power vacuum' which aided ISIS's growth, but it is totally ridiculous and dangerous, to claim that WE CREATED ISIS. Islam did not even create ISIS - rather that ISIS claimed Islam to excuse its barbaric and demonic war on the rest of humanity - including Muslims.

So, NEXT:

FALLACY No. 6: "It's not the Muslims either, just an extreme minority of them."

FACTS: Extreme or not, ISIS ARE MUSLIM.

So NEXT:

FALLACY No. 7: "so why are you trying to tar them all with the same brush?"

FACTS: Please stop accusing me of this ridiculous CLICHED crap that I am "tarring all Muslims with the same brush" It is thoroughly dishonest and unfair and - once again - I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME AND OTHER READERS OF THIS THREAD JUST WHERE I HAVE EVER SAID THIS OR DONE THIS, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT. THEREFORE IT IS DISGRACEFUL TO KEEP REPEATING THIS SAME LIE.

So NEXT:

FALLACY No. 8: "Yes, if you don't think that the Bible isn't as brutal as the Qu'ran then you must not have read it very well. Any religion has the potential to be used to justify radical and terrorist actions."

FACTS: I have read the BIBLE and the QURAN, own my own copies of both, and still read both almost daily.

The Old Testament of The Judeo Christian Bible does contain violence, but I have posted very detail FACTUAL posts on this subject on other threads which you have subscribed to, so why do you persist in trotting out this same fallacy? Ah well; an excerpt:

"NOWHERE in the New Testament is there any incitement for followers to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers and I defy anyone on here to provide evidence to the contrary.

Even the violence within the Old Testament is solely bound by historical context and specific only to the era in which the text was written, as distinct from the open-ended commands throughout the Quran which compel faithful Muslims to to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers. These commands are not era specific, and have no predetermined time limit, so are as relevant and applicable for faithful Muslims today as they were to faithful Muslims in Muhammad's time. Which explains the demonic atrocities still being perpetrated in Allah's name after 1500 years."

Big difference uh?

He didn't care for the Pharisees and Sadducees much.

[kirklancaster]

He didn't care for the Pharisees and Sadducees much.

Not caring for and slaughtering and beheading are poles apart.

[Kizzy]

Not caring for and slaughtering and beheading are poles apart.

Who's to say this wasn't the precursor to anti-semetism?

[DemolitionRed]

The right and wrong be the bitches that conspire to bring about BLAME. What an ugly thing, that.

[kirklancaster]

Who's to say this wasn't the precursor to anti-semetism?

You are confusing the facts though;

Jesus was a Jew - his followers were initially Jews, then as Christianity spread, his followers included non-Jews who still followed a Jew, and his pacifist teachings, and his Judaic beliefs, and the New Testament - which is specifically all about Christ - contains no violence nor any incitement to hatred or violence to others, so how can Christ's teachings logically be the precursor to Antisemitism?

I mean; why would a Jew be Antisemitic ie; against himself?

[Tom4784]

Why not I was forced to read through all the 'noise' and fallacy which prompted my 'noise' in response. Debate and discussion is impossible without a thorough knowledge of all the relevant facts, so your response above is typical, and confirms my suspicions that you do not know what you are talking about because you do not actually read and understand the posts which you continually criticise, and have not even read the Quran or Bible.

Nuff said.

You weren't forced to do jack ****.

I didn't read through your post because it was overly long and self indulgent. If you really cared about having a debate you'd present your argument in a concise and direct manner. Nobody has time for a ****ing thesis on the subject.

You've accused me of bullying for less than what's been bolded. Don't be a hypocrite now, Kirky.

Also, I've got more knowledge of the Bible than you at least as you don't think it's as violent as any other religious text. Have you not heard of the Old Testament?

[kirklancaster]

You weren't forced to do jack ****.

I didn't read through your post because it was overly long and self indulgent. If you really cared about having a debate you'd present your argument in a concise and direct manner. Nobody has time for a ****ing thesis on the subject.

You've accused me of bullying for less than what's been bolded. Don't be a hypocrite now, Kirky.

Also, I've got more knowledge of the Bible than you at least as you don't think it's as violent as any other religious text. Have you not heard of the Old Testament?

:joker::joker::joker: There is no "Self-Indulgent Thesis" just a comprehensive destruction of a critical response which is riddled with fallacy and misrepresentation.

So you say what you want, because this forum - like all forums - is a microcosm of the real world -- a world where the aggressive minorities who are active such as your good self, spew propaganda at the cost of truth, believing, that because the passive majority largely remain silent, that they are succeeding in convincing with such propaganda.

The truth is, however, that no one is being fooled - out there or on here - people can read and follow argument, and people have the intelligence to see where an uncorroborated lie or misrepresentation has been exposed as such by corroborated logical response. They may not rush to their keyboards to state as much - probably because they realise the futility of doing so - but pm's are another matter.

So carry on.

For myself, I will debate and discuss with those whose posts are reasoned and intelligent and civil, and whose views are built upon integrity.

[Tom4784]

:joker::joker::joker: There is no "Self-Indulgent Thesis" just a comprehensive destruction of a critical response which is riddled with fallacy and misrepresentation.

So you say what you want, because this forum - like all forums - is a microcosm of the real world -- a world where the aggressive minorities who are active such as your good self, spew propaganda at the cost of truth, believing, that because the passive majority largely remain silent, that they are succeeding in convincing with such propaganda.

The truth is, however, that no one is being fooled - out there or on here - people can read and follow argument, and people have the intelligence to see where an uncorroborated lie or misrepresentation has been exposed as such by corroborated logical response. They may not rush to their keyboards to state as much - probably because they realise the futility of doing so - but pm's are another matter.

So carry on.

For myself, I will debate and discuss with those whose posts are reasoned and intelligent and civil, and whose views are built upon integrity.

So basically what you're saying if you cut out all the bull**** posturing which let's be honest, forms of 99% of this post, is that anyone that disagrees with you or DARES not indulge you in one of your endless thesis posts is an unintelligent ranting moron.

The truth is that you aren't interested in having a discussion, you just want people to faun over your opinion which is why you can't handle it if it gets challenged. That's why you keep trying to come for me in topics because you can't stand that I'm not giving you the approval you crave, that's why you've been posting little snipe-y comments about me about you being 'warned if you share your opinion' (complete and utter bull****) and why you've been filling your sig with painfully unsubtle digs at me. You can't get my approval so you're gonna make me out to be a bad mod so you can try to get rid of me. News flash, I never mod topics that I'm personally involved in. I'd never warn or infract you for anything we've discussed and if you have been punished then it's been by another mod.

Since we're going off topic I'm gonna be the mature adult and put you on ignore since you'll do nothing but snipe at me otherwise. Don't bother replying to this because i'm not gonna read it and it'll be seen as posturing for these imaginary PM buddies of yours.

[Kizzy]

You are confusing the facts though;

Jesus was a Jew - his followers were initially Jews, then as Christianity spread, his followers included non-Jews who still followed a Jew, and his pacifist teachings, and his Judaic beliefs, and the New Testament - which is specifically all about Christ - contains no violence nor any incitement to hatred or violence to others, so how can Christ's teachings logically be the precursor to Antisemitism?

I mean; why would a Jew be Antisemitic ie; against himself?

Who's confusing the facts?
All I said was according to the new testament teachings of Matthew he didn't care for Pharisees and Sadducees, that's a fact.

[kirklancaster]

Who's confusing the facts?
All I said was according to the new testament teachings of Matthew he didn't care for Pharisees and Sadducees, that's a fact.

:laugh: What a roundabout!!!!

Yes, it may be a fact but now we're back where we started:

YOU SAID: "He didn't care for the Pharisees and Sadducees much."

TO WHICH I REPLIED: "Not caring for and slaughtering and beheading are poles apart."

:TO WHICH YOU SAID "Who's to say this wasn't the precursor to anti-semetism?

TO WHICH I REPLIED: "You are confusing the facts though; Jesus was a Jew - his followers were initially Jews, then as Christianity spread, his followers included non-Jews who still followed a Jew, and his pacifist teachings, and his Judaic beliefs, and the New Testament - which is specifically all about Christ - contains no violence nor any incitement to hatred or violence to others, so how can Christ's teachings logically be the precursor to Antisemitism? I mean; why would a Jew be Antisemitic ie; against himself?"

TO WHICH YOU REPLIED: "Who's confusing the facts? All I said was according to the new testament teachings of Matthew he didn't care for Pharisees and Sadducees, that's a fact",


So from saying that Jesus's alleged dislike of Pharisees and Saducees could be a precursor to Antisemitism, we are now claiming that you only said he disliked Pharisees and Saducees .

It's simply not true though, is it?

[Kizzy]

:laugh: What a roundabout!!!!

Yes, it may be a fact but now we're back where we started:

YOU SAID: "He didn't care for the Pharisees and Sadducees much."

TO WHICH I REPLIED: "Not caring for and slaughtering and beheading are poles apart."

:TO WHICH YOU SAID "Who's to say this wasn't the precursor to anti-semetism?

TO WHICH I REPLIED: "You are confusing the facts though; Jesus was a Jew - his followers were initially Jews, then as Christianity spread, his followers included non-Jews who still followed a Jew, and his pacifist teachings, and his Judaic beliefs, and the New Testament - which is specifically all about Christ - contains no violence nor any incitement to hatred or violence to others, so how can Christ's teachings logically be the precursor to Antisemitism? I mean; why would a Jew be Antisemitic ie; against himself?"

TO WHICH YOU REPLIED: "Who's confusing the facts? All I said was according to the new testament teachings of Matthew he didn't care for Pharisees and Sadducees, that's a fact",


So from saying that Jesus's alleged dislike of Pharisees and Saducees could be a precursor to Antisemitism, we are now claiming that you only said he disliked Pharisees and Saducees .

It's simply not true though, is it?

Without the histrionics can you explain why not?

[InOne]

Good old Pat :pipe:

N46mIHEGHN0

[Kizzy]

What a joker... there have been Muslims living in the UK for years and all of a sudden they are all an immediate threat?

So if every one of them takes their holy book so literally then by this logic everyone who follows the old testament must too?

[kirklancaster]

Without the histrionics can you explain why not?

No - It's been fully explained with a chronological record of "why not" - which as usual - you are choosing to ignore so you can state the same old question which just takes around in another circle. Anyone reading these posts can immediately see the truth of what I say.

[InOne]

What a joker... there have been Muslims living in the UK for years and all of a sudden they are all an immediate threat?

So if every one of them takes their holy book so literally then by this logic everyone who follows the old testament must too?

I'm sure Pat would be happy to answer all your questions Kizzy

[Kizzy]

Pudsey is full of 'pats' Joe :joker:

[kirklancaster]

Good old Pat :pipe:

N46mIHEGHN0

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Good Old Pat - AND Good Old InOne.

[kirklancaster]

What a joker... there have been Muslims living in the UK for years and all of a sudden they are all an immediate threat?

So if every one of them takes their holy book so literally then by this logic everyone who follows the old testament must too?


:laugh: More circular argument and repeated fallacy - even though I myself have answered this factually and at great length. I mean for God's sake - yes God - there's even an excerpt a few posts up on this very thread which answers it.

[InOne]

Pudsey is full of 'pats' Joe :joker:

Well hopefully you find the right one!

[Tom4784]

Good old Pat :pipe:

N46mIHEGHN0

I watched for about 30 seconds before my constant eye rolling started to cause me pain.

[InOne]

I watched for about 30 seconds before my constant eye rolling started to cause me pain.

Erm.... Good for you?

[Kizzy]

[/B]

:laugh: More circular argument and repeated fallacy - even though I myself have answered this factually and at great length. I mean for God's sake - yes God - there's even an excerpt a few posts up on this very thread which answers it.

Repeated fallacy, what has been said by myself that is false?

Where were the facts you posted... all I saw was your interpretation,
this 'truth' and 'fact' is nothing but your opinion.

[Livia]

I have to say... the theory about Jesus being the root of anti-Semitism is quite the silliest, most far-fetched theory I've read on Serious Debates for a long, looong time.

Anyway, wasn't this thread about ISIL beheading Christians?

[kirklancaster]

Repeated fallacy, what has been said by myself that is false?

Where were the facts you posted... all I saw was your interpretation,
this 'truth' and 'fact' is nothing but your opinion.

Try reading through this thread.

I state facts otherwise I put "In my opinion" :sleep::sleep::wavey: Bye.

[Kizzy]

I have to say... the theory about Jesus being the root of anti-Semitism is quite the silliest, most far-fetched theory I've read on Serious Debates for a long, looong time.

Anyway, wasn't this thread about ISIL beheading Christians?

That is NOT what I said Livia please don't start misquoting me.

[kirklancaster]

I have to say... the theory about Jesus being the root of anti-Semitism is quite the silliest, most far-fetched theory I've read on Serious Debates for a long, looong time.

Anyway, wasn't this thread about ISIL beheading Christians?

Yes, until it got diverted as usual into the usual Christianity is no better than Islam crap.

[Kizzy]

Try reading through this thread.

I state facts otherwise I put "In my opinion" :sleep::sleep::wavey: Bye.

You never link to anything reputable and 99% of your opinion is subjective.
I do find your smileys funny though, definitely keep those.

[Kizzy]

Yes, until it got diverted as usual into the usual Christianity is no better than Islam crap.

Who said this?...

[kirklancaster]

That is NOT what I said Livia please don't start misquoting me.

Yes it is what you said. And here - again - is the chronological proof that you did:

What a roundabout!!!!

Yes, it may be a fact but now we're back where we started:

YOU SAID: "He didn't care for the Pharisees and Sadducees much."

TO WHICH I REPLIED: "Not caring for and slaughtering and beheading are poles apart."

:TO WHICH YOU SAID "Who's to say this wasn't the precursor to anti-semetism?

TO WHICH I REPLIED: "You are confusing the facts though; Jesus was a Jew - his followers were initially Jews, then as Christianity spread, his followers included non-Jews who still followed a Jew, and his pacifist teachings, and his Judaic beliefs, and the New Testament - which is specifically all about Christ - contains no violence nor any incitement to hatred or violence to others, so how can Christ's teachings logically be the precursor to Antisemitism? I mean; why would a Jew be Antisemitic ie; against himself?"

TO WHICH YOU REPLIED: "Who's confusing the facts? All I said was according to the new testament teachings of Matthew he didn't care for Pharisees and Sadducees, that's a fact",

So from saying that Jesus's alleged dislike of Pharisees and Saducees could be a precursor to Antisemitism, we are now claiming that you only said he disliked Pharisees and Saducees .

It's simply not true though, is it?

See - You did say it.

[Livia]

Who's to say this wasn't the precursor to anti-semetism?

the theory about Jesus being the root of anti-Semitism is quite the silliest, most far-fetched theory I've read on Serious Debates for a long, looong time.



That is NOT what I said Livia please don't start misquoting me.

No?

[Kizzy]

No?

No...

You said 'the root' I said 'the precursor'

It's very different.

[Kizzy]

Yes it is what you said. And here - again - is the chronological proof that you did:

What a roundabout!!!!

Yes, it may be a fact but now we're back where we started:

YOU SAID: "He didn't care for the Pharisees and Sadducees much."

TO WHICH I REPLIED: "Not caring for and slaughtering and beheading are poles apart."

:TO WHICH YOU SAID "Who's to say this wasn't the precursor to anti-semetism?

TO WHICH I REPLIED: "You are confusing the facts though; Jesus was a Jew - his followers were initially Jews, then as Christianity spread, his followers included non-Jews who still followed a Jew, and his pacifist teachings, and his Judaic beliefs, and the New Testament - which is specifically all about Christ - contains no violence nor any incitement to hatred or violence to others, so how can Christ's teachings logically be the precursor to Antisemitism? I mean; why would a Jew be Antisemitic ie; against himself?"

TO WHICH YOU REPLIED: "Who's confusing the facts? All I said was according to the new testament teachings of Matthew he didn't care for Pharisees and Sadducees, that's a fact",

So from saying that Jesus's alleged dislike of Pharisees and Saducees could be a precursor to Antisemitism, we are now claiming that you only said he disliked Pharisees and Saducees .

It's simply not true though, is it?

See - You did say it.

I don't see anything but smileys here....

[Livia]

No...

You said 'the root' I said 'the precursor'

It's very different.

LOL... right.

Still the silliest comment I've read for a long time.

[Kizzy]

LOL... right.

Still the silliest comment I've read for a long time.

I sometimes find your comments silly too, but I'm far to polite to say usually.

[Livia]

I sometimes find your comments silly too, but I'm far to polite to say usually.

What's that got to do with this thread, exactly?

[Kizzy]

What's that got to do with this thread, exactly?

What has your finding my view silly got to do with the thread?

If you don't agree fine you don't have to attempt to belittle my opinion, that's very hurtful you know.

[InOne]

Well that's a new one :pipe:

[kirklancaster]

Well that's a new one :pipe:

:laugh:

[Kizzy]

Well that's a new one :pipe:

Lasted almost a full minute too :joker:

[InOne]

Lasted almost a full minute too :joker:

And I'm sure you loved that eh :pipe:

[Kizzy]

And I'm sure you loved that eh :pipe:

Are you being crude?.... in serious debates? hang your head :)

[DemolitionRed]

This didnt make many right wing sites, so I will share for those people who are whinging about muslims not standing up against the radicals...



REUTERS - More than 1,000 Muslims formed a human shield around Oslo's synagogue on Saturday, offering symbolic protection for the city's Jewish community and condemning an attack on a synagogue in neighboring Denmark last weekend.

Chanting "No to anti-Semitism, no to Islamophobia," Norway's Muslims formed what they called a ring of peace a week after Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein, a Danish-born son of Palestinian immigrants, killed two people at a synagogue and an event promoting free speech in Copenhagen last weekend.

"Humanity is one and we are here to demonstrate that," Zeeshan Abdullah, one of the protest's organizers told a crowd of Muslim immigrants and ethnic Norwegians who filled the small street around Oslo's only functioning synagogue.

"There are many more peace mongers than warmongers," Abdullah said as organizers and Jewish community leaders stood side by side. "There's still hope for humanity, for peace and love, across religious differences and backgrounds."

Norway's Jewish community is one of Europe's smallest, numbering around 1000, and the Muslim population, which has been growing steadily through immigration, is 150,000 to 200,000. Norway has a population of about 5.2 million.

The debate over immigration in the country came to the forefront in 2011 when Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people and accused the government and the then-ruling Labour party of facilitating Muslim immigration and adulterating pure Norwegian blood.

Support for immigration has been rising steadily since those attacks, however, and an opinion poll late last year found that 77 percent of people thought immigrants made an important contribution to Norwegian society.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.643521

[arista]

Its good the Parents have spoken on the TV news yesterday
and typical that they had no idea of the Romantic Syria Isis Killers

[kirklancaster]

This didnt make many right wing sites, so I will share for those people who are whinging about muslims not standing up against the radicals...

REUTERS - More than 1,000 Muslims formed a human shield around Oslo's synagogue on Saturday, offering symbolic protection for the city's Jewish community and condemning an attack on a synagogue in neighboring Denmark last weekend.

Chanting "No to anti-Semitism, no to Islamophobia," Norway's Muslims formed what they called a ring of peace a week after Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein, a Danish-born son of Palestinian immigrants, killed two people at a synagogue and an event promoting free speech in Copenhagen last weekend.

"Humanity is one and we are here to demonstrate that," Zeeshan Abdullah, one of the protest's organizers told a crowd of Muslim immigrants and ethnic Norwegians who filled the small street around Oslo's only functioning synagogue.

"There are many more peace mongers than warmongers," Abdullah said as organizers and Jewish community leaders stood side by side. "There's still hope for humanity, for peace and love, across religious differences and backgrounds."

Norway's Jewish community is one of Europe's smallest, numbering around 1000, and the Muslim population, which has been growing steadily through immigration, is 150,000 to 200,000. Norway has a population of about 5.2 million.

The debate over immigration in the country came to the forefront in 2011 when Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people and accused the government and the then-ruling Labour party of facilitating Muslim immigration and adulterating pure Norwegian blood.

Support for immigration has been rising steadily since those attacks, however, and an opinion poll late last year found that 77 percent of people thought immigrants made an important contribution to Norwegian society.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.643521

Yes, Muslims worldwide are starting to protest against terrorism, Antisemitism, and even in support of free speech, and this is truly welcoming news, but to be fair, I think that any calls on here for moderate Muslims to 'stand up and be counted' against the terrorists bastards slaughtering other humans in the name of their prophet, their God, and their religion, were referring more to British Muslims.

I believe the 'rationale' is that with over 3 million Muslims in the UK, the protests against IS have been proportionally tiny, or individual, and irregular, whereas concerted rallies en-masse (poll tax style) would be more news-worthy and have far more impact. There has not been - to my knowledge anyway - any such organised protests in the UK.

No one on here believes that the great majority of ordinary Muslims have terrorist sympathies, but in the same vein, only apologists or the self-deluded would deny that some terrorist sympathisers, and even activists, are secreted within our Muslim communities.

Further; this issue is beyond individual politics, or personal belief - or should be - it is all about 'Man's Inhumanity To Man' and a plague which is threatening the entire world. We all react differently to the daily atrocities perpetrated by these terrorists, and those of us who are most vociferous in our condemnation of it are no more Islamaphobic and xenophobic or racist, than those whose condemnation is more feeble, muted, or non forthcoming, are terrorist apologists, and yet, our attacks on Islamic terrorists are repeatedly misconstrued on here as attacks on all Muslims, when this is simply not true.

[Kizzy]

It is easy to confuse where the intolerance lies when the Quran has been the onus in so many threads, imo the feeling was muslims were compelled to violence due to what was written?

[Livia]

This didnt make many right wing sites, so I will share for those people who are whinging about muslims not standing up against the radicals...



REUTERS - More than 1,000 Muslims formed a human shield around Oslo's synagogue on Saturday, offering symbolic protection for the city's Jewish community and condemning an attack on a synagogue in neighboring Denmark last weekend.

Chanting "No to anti-Semitism, no to Islamophobia," Norway's Muslims formed what they called a ring of peace a week after Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein, a Danish-born son of Palestinian immigrants, killed two people at a synagogue and an event promoting free speech in Copenhagen last weekend.

"Humanity is one and we are here to demonstrate that," Zeeshan Abdullah, one of the protest's organizers told a crowd of Muslim immigrants and ethnic Norwegians who filled the small street around Oslo's only functioning synagogue.

"There are many more peace mongers than warmongers," Abdullah said as organizers and Jewish community leaders stood side by side. "There's still hope for humanity, for peace and love, across religious differences and backgrounds."

Norway's Jewish community is one of Europe's smallest, numbering around 1000, and the Muslim population, which has been growing steadily through immigration, is 150,000 to 200,000. Norway has a population of about 5.2 million.

The debate over immigration in the country came to the forefront in 2011 when Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people and accused the government and the then-ruling Labour party of facilitating Muslim immigration and adulterating pure Norwegian blood.

Support for immigration has been rising steadily since those attacks, however, and an opinion poll late last year found that 77 percent of people thought immigrants made an important contribution to Norwegian society.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.643521


Norway's a very different proposition to the UK.

When Muslims do stand up against terrorism it makes the news internationally. It happened in Paris, it's happened in Norway... I can't see it happening here.

[Kizzy]

There are #makingastand events being held across the UK

http://asianlite.com/news/uk-news/british-muslim-women-unite-to-make-a-stand-against-isis/

[Livia]

yeah... can't see them shutting down the centre of London like they shut down the centre of Paris. And anyway, the Paris and Oslo actions were spontaneous, not organised by a promotions company complete with a statement photograph for the campaign.

[DemolitionRed]

There are #makingastand events being held across the UK

http://asianlite.com/news/uk-news/british-muslim-women-unite-to-make-a-stand-against-isis/

Thanks for the link Kizzy. It would be nice to go and cheer them along.
I love the way the Muslim lady is using a union jack as a headscarf!

[Kizzy]

II42IpzskRI

It will happen, it's happening all over Europe why wouldn't it happen here?
makingastand might be a jumping off point is all.

[MTVN]

yeah... can't see them shutting down the centre of London like they shut down the centre of Paris. And anyway, the Paris and Oslo actions were spontaneous, not organised by a promotions company complete with a statement photograph for the campaign.

Do you not think there would be such a demonstration in London if we witnessed the couple of days that Paris did though? I know we've had terror attacks before as well (which in Lee Rigby's case at least did prompt some demonstrations from the Muslim community against the killers: http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/the-woolwich-killers-were-doing-islam-wrong) but I think the way that most the world is now uniting against Islamic extremism has meant that opposition to it is now mobilising in greater numbers. It could be that there's a greater appreciation of the problem now, a lot of the backlash to increased extremism originally manifested itself in some uncomfortable ways in this country with the rise of the EDL which made it difficult to rally widespread public opposition. In fairess the founder of the EDL did realise that hence his splitting from the movement and now works with the Quilliam foundation alongside Muslims.

I don't think that Muslims in the UK are less opposed to extremism than they are in France. If anything France has a greater problem with there being a large gulf between a lot of the Muslim community and the rest of France, a lot of them feeling marginalised and disillusioned by French society.

[Livia]

Do you not think there would be such a demonstration in London if we witnessed the couple of days that Paris did though? I know we've had terror attacks before as well (which in Lee Rigby's case at least did prompt some demonstrations from the Muslim community against the killers: http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/the-woolwich-killers-were-doing-islam-wrong) but I think the way that most the world is now uniting against Islamic extremism has meant that opposition to it is now mobilising in greater numbers. It could be that there's a greater appreciation of the problem now, a lot of the backlash to increased extremism originally manifested itself in some uncomfortable ways in this country with the rise of the EDL which made it difficult to rally widespread public opposition. In fairess the founder of the EDL did realise that hence his splitting from the movement and now works with the Quilliam foundation alongside Muslims.

I don't think that Muslims in the UK are less opposed to extremism than they are in France. If anything France has a greater problem with there being a large gulf between a lot of the Muslim community and the rest of France, a lot of them feeling marginalised and disillusioned by French society.

I don't think for one minute that Muslims in the UK are less opposed to extremism, I just think the mind-set here is different. I don't think they feel the need to be vociferous because people in this country don't require the Muslim community to stand up. The reaction on this forum endorses that for me. When the kosher deli was attacked in Paris, some of the first comments up here were 'I hope the Muslim community isn't caught in a backlash', followed by comments that it was probably a coincidence it was a kosher deli and nothing to do with any kind of anti-Semitism. We have endless comments about Muslims and terrorists being two quite different things, which they are. Yet I have been questioned quite aggressively by more than one person about Israel's stance on Palestine simply because I'm Jewish, indeed, one poster said on the thread about the Jewish man being spat at in Paris, that we have to stop arming Israel.

I think that 7/7 was at least on a par with the Paris incident, don't you? What we're having here now is an orchestrated campaign with professional photographs to encourage people to take part, not a spontaneous outpouring of public solidarity.

[Kizzy]

I don't think for one minute that Muslims in the UK are less opposed to extremism, I just think the mind-set here is different. I don't think they feel the need to be vociferous because people in this country don't require the Muslim community to stand up. The reaction on this forum endorses that for me. When the kosher deli was attacked in Paris, some of the first comments up here were 'I hope the Muslim community isn't caught in a backlash', followed by comments that it was probably a coincidence it was a kosher deli and nothing to do with any kind of anti-Semitism. We have endless comments about Muslims and terrorists being two quite different things, which they are. Yet I have been questioned quite aggressively by more than one person about Israel's stance on Palestine simply because I'm Jewish, indeed, one poster said on the thread about the Jewish man being spat at in Paris, that we have to stop arming Israel.

I think that 7/7 was at least on a par with the Paris incident, don't you? What we're having here now is an orchestrated campaign with professional photographs to encourage people to take part, not a spontaneous outpouring of public solidarity.

It's a bit of a reach to suggest the views of a handful on this forum reflect the feeling in the UK on any given topic let alone this one.
The Muslim community are standing up, I don't understand your point that they're not 'required' to.
As stated the public displays were a reaction to incidents, I hope that along with counter terrorism measures and the orchestrated campaign we can avoid any reactions to British attacks.

[kirklancaster]

I don't think for one minute that Muslims in the UK are less opposed to extremism, I just think the mind-set here is different. I don't think they feel the need to be vociferous because people in this country don't require the Muslim community to stand up. The reaction on this forum endorses that for me. When the kosher deli was attacked in Paris, some of the first comments up here were 'I hope the Muslim community isn't caught in a backlash', followed by comments that it was probably a coincidence it was a kosher deli and nothing to do with any kind of anti-Semitism. We have endless comments about Muslims and terrorists being two quite different things, which they are. Yet I have been questioned quite aggressively by more than one person about Israel's stance on Palestine simply because I'm Jewish, indeed, one poster said on the thread about the Jewish man being spat at in Paris, that we have to stop arming Israel.

I think that 7/7 was at least on a par with the Paris incident, don't you? What we're having here now is an orchestrated campaign with professional photographs to encourage people to take part, not a spontaneous outpouring of public solidarity.

Another sterling post Liv and every point valid.

[Livia]

It's a bit of a reach to suggest the views of a handful on this forum reflect the feeling in the UK on any given topic let alone this one.
The Muslim community are standing up, I don't understand your point that they're not 'required' to.
As stated the public displays were a reaction to incidents, I hope that along with counter terrorism measures and the orchestrated campaign we can avoid any reactions to British attacks.

I never said that. Go back and read my post again. I said the feeling on this forum ENDORSES the feeling in the country.

I would explain the rest of my post but it would end up going round in a HUGE circle and end up with you arguing semantics. So no.

[Kizzy]

I never said that. Go back and read my post again. I said the feeling on this forum ENDORSES the feeling in the country.

I would explain the rest of my post but it would end up going round in a HUGE circle and end up with you arguing semantics. So no.

Me misquoting you that's novel, In my opinion it neither reflects the feeling in the country nor endorses it.

[Livia]

Me misquoting you that's novel, In my opinion it neither reflects the feeling in the country nor endorses it.

I have never misquoted you. You've accused me of it and in response I've posted your own words back to you...

Well. it doesn't matter to me whether you agree or not because I was actually answering a post from MTVN. I quoted him...

So... are you going to answer every one of my posts today? Are you bored and looking for an argument? Because I'm not interested.

[Livia]

It's going to be a wasted post, Kizzy. I'm done talking to you today.

[Kizzy]

I have never misquoted you. You've accused me of it and in response I've posted your own words back to you...

Well. it doesn't matter to me whether you agree or not because I was actually answering a post from MTVN. I quoted him...

So... are you going to answer every one of my posts today? Are you bored and looking for an argument? Because I'm not interested.

You misquoted me yesterday livia..

I corrected you then remember? When you start involving 'the forum' in your posts know that 'the forum' has the right to reply.
I have been involved in this discussion from the off I don't intend to be railroaded off.
If you don't want to respond to me that's fine.

[kirklancaster]

You misquoted me yesterday livia..

I corrected you then remember? When you start involving 'the forum' in your posts know that 'the forum' has the right to reply.
I have been involved in this discussion from the off I don't intend to be railroaded off.
If you don't want to respond to me that's fine.

With respect - 'Circular argument' is futile and wearing. To 'Question' then be replied to with a valid 'Answer' , only to 'Ignore' the answer and pose the same 'Question'.

To 'Contradict', then be replied to with a valid 'Response' which rebuts the contradiction with clear 'Evidence', only to 'Ignore' then make the same 'Contradiction'

To 'Misrepresent', then be replied to with a valid response which 'Exposes' the 'Misrepresentation' by the use of clear 'Evidence', only to 'Ignore' then persist with the same 'Misrepresentation'

is very wearing, and is not conducive to proper discussion or debate, but does, instead, always result in futility and bad feeling.

Just putting that out there.

[user104658]

The question remains, though. If all tibbers are circular arguers and most circular arguers are tibbers, how many angry tibby rants does it take to bring down a multinational terrorist organisation?

I can't claim to know the answer but I will for damned sure be here to find out!!

[Livia]

The question remains, though. If all tibbers are circular arguers and most circular arguers are tibbers, how many angry tibby rants does it take to bring down a multinational terrorist organisation?

I can't claim to know the answer but I will for damned sure be here to find out!!

42.

[user104658]

42.
So what you're saying is... That 42 rants against Islamic extremism would cancel out Islamic extremism? And if 42 is the meaning of life, then "anti 42" is the inverse of the meaning of life. So, it then follows, that Islamic extremism is the meaning of life??

*suspicious*

Is that really jew, Livia? Or some sort of Islamic imposter?

[Livia]

So what you're saying is... That 42 rants against Islamic extremism would cancel out Islamic extremism? And if 42 is the meaning of life, then "anti 42" is the inverse of the meaning of life. So, it then follows, that Islamic extremism is the meaning of life??

*suspicious*

Is that really jew, Livia? Or some sort of Islamic imposter?

LOL... your train of thought is unique, TS.

I won't mention to my father you think I am Islamic imposter for fear he will burst into flames.

[kirklancaster]

The question remains, though. If all tibbers are circular arguers and most circular arguers are tibbers, how many angry tibby rants does it take to bring down a multinational terrorist organisation?

I can't claim to know the answer but I will for damned sure be here to find out!!

:laugh: You got me T.S.

[MTVN]

I don't think for one minute that Muslims in the UK are less opposed to extremism, I just think the mind-set here is different. I don't think they feel the need to be vociferous because people in this country don't require the Muslim community to stand up. The reaction on this forum endorses that for me. When the kosher deli was attacked in Paris, some of the first comments up here were 'I hope the Muslim community isn't caught in a backlash', followed by comments that it was probably a coincidence it was a kosher deli and nothing to do with any kind of anti-Semitism. We have endless comments about Muslims and terrorists being two quite different things, which they are. Yet I have been questioned quite aggressively by more than one person about Israel's stance on Palestine simply because I'm Jewish, indeed, one poster said on the thread about the Jewish man being spat at in Paris, that we have to stop arming Israel.

I think that 7/7 was at least on a par with the Paris incident, don't you? What we're having here now is an orchestrated campaign with professional photographs to encourage people to take part, not a spontaneous outpouring of public solidarity.

Ok that's an interesting point which you might be right about. I wouldn't necessarily consider that a bad thing though, if you are right then doesn't it speak positively of how the Muslim community has largely integrated into our society that people do worry about a potential backlash, and that people are concerned to distinguish between ordinary Muslims and extremists? I would also like to think that Jewish people wouldn't feel out of place here in their own country, maybe that's not as true now as it was maybe ten years ago which is sad if so.

[Kizzy]

With respect - 'Circular argument' is futile and wearing. To 'Question' then be replied to with a valid 'Answer' , only to 'Ignore' the answer and pose the same 'Question'.

To 'Contradict', then be replied to with a valid 'Response' which rebuts the contradiction with clear 'Evidence', only to 'Ignore' then make the same 'Contradiction'

To 'Misrepresent', then be replied to with a valid response which 'Exposes' the 'Misrepresentation' by the use of clear 'Evidence', only to 'Ignore' then persist with the same 'Misrepresentation'

is very wearing, and is not conducive to proper discussion or debate, but does, instead, always result in futility and bad feeling.

Just putting that out there.

With respect I'm not interested in your opinion on my interactions with other members, stick to the topic please.

[kirklancaster]

With respect I'm not interested in your opinion on my interactions with other members, stick to the topic please.

:laugh: Oh my dear Kizzy :shrug:; the last 154 posts on this thread have not been 'on' topic, of which a great majority are your posts. In fact, it was you who brought the 'topic' to where it was in the very final post - post no 151 - to which I immediately responded with post no. 152; my 'Circular Argument' post, the post you now quote. So to be exact, I am being 'on topic'.

As for your statement; "I'm not interested in your opinion on my interaction with other members", then this is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION of your statement to Livia in your post no. 151, in which you state: "When you start involving 'the forum' in your posts know that 'the forum' has the right to reply". So it is alright for you to claim democratic process when it suits you, but you deny other forum members the same democratic right when it doesn't suit you?

Further, and to be exact; I was not just voicing my opinion on your "interaction with other members", because you are guilty of the very same 'Circular Argument (and other 'Strawman' techniques) in your discussions with me on this thread, and with me on virtually every other thread on this forum, and therefore, my concern for "other members" suffering from your circular argument tactics was in reality, just secondary to my primary concern of your use of such tactics in discussions with me.

Finally, this is not a personal attack; it is FAIR COMMENT - A STATEMENT OF FACTS, made in the honest hope that, once highlighted for you, you will desist from using such tactics, thereby ensuring more honest, reasoned debate, because all Strawman tactics merely impoverish a debate/discussion by causing such members who they are employed against, to resist joining in discussions - deterred by an inescapable sense of futility.

It is, after all, a democratic discussion forum, where 'right to reply' is afforded to every member.

[Kizzy]

It is coming across as tag teaming kirk.

Anyone has the right to post yes, but I'd appreciate it if you discussed the topic and not me, this is serious debates and this is a sensitive subject.

[Vanessa]

Some people have been posting these videos on facebook. I don't want to see that on my timeline. :nono:

[kirklancaster]

It is coming across as tag teaming kirk.

Anyone has the right to post yes, but I'd appreciate it if you discussed the topic and not me, this is serious debates and this is a sensitive subject.

No one on here knows better than I do Kizzy about being single-handed against multiple antagonists who are 'teamed up' - and you have been part of such 'teams' against me on many occasions, so I assure you that I am not participating in such tactics, merely responding to your posts and to your responses to my posts. If other members are similarly engaged with you in a parallel manner, then it is not incidental but coincidental.

I agree with you that this should be a serious debate on a sensitive nature, and my posts are always serious in nature and the passion I write with very sincere, but I admit that - just like your good self - I do become frivolous in reaction to frivolity, and I do tend to 'follow suit' when a thread deviates from the original topic.

Anyway, I suggest we leave it there. We have not fallen out or lapsed into personal insult (something I am genuinely pleased about) and I look forward to further debate/discussion with you.

[Kizzy]

No one on here knows better than I do Kizzy about being single-handed against multiple antagonists who are 'teamed up' - and you have been part of such 'teams' against me on many occasions, so I assure you that I am not participating in such tactics, merely responding to your posts and to your responses to my posts. If other members are similarly engaged with you in a parallel manner, then it is not incidental but coincidental.

I agree with you that this should be a serious debate on a sensitive nature, and my posts are always serious in nature and the passion I write with very sincere, but I admit that - just like your good self - I do become frivolous in reaction to frivolity, and I do tend to 'follow suit' when a thread deviates from the original topic.

Anyway, I suggest we leave it there. We have not fallen out or lapsed into personal insult (something I am genuinely pleased about) and I look forward to further debate/discussion with you.

I have never done that, I have my opinion on a topic and mine alone.