get yourself a job 18 to 21 or no benefits - discrimination ? discuss

[waterhog]

get yourself a job ( david C aka mr credibility) 17.02.15

don't think this is a George (osbourne)
this is the organ grinder
Dave you are so fake its forge
its a ultimate low act not from your minder.
our job's are not on your pile
to you this is no shame
unlike a MP's job and shiny white smile
we are not all privileged to be over paid and still claim.
3 years we are targeting
the importance i will argue
like the "con party" and dress up and clever marketing
when you look its a empty menu.
no consideration about travel
or the job suitability
none of us have a second home and drive way gravel
or protection from a criminal corrupt facility. (Parliament)
why don't you target the fit and healthy
that think work is vile
instead of going for the young and least wealthy
i will tip you off, they will be watching Jeremy Vile.
the "welfare" is not a luxury budget
it is a pure squeeze
MP's spend a weeks unemployment on breakfast so begrudge it
this policy should bring all down to the knees.
sorry David Cameron to slam
but your government is a disgrace
now i present you with a "Wham"
take with you all your cronies and get out of this place.

( on the news i see this government is targeting the 18 to 21 age group and wants to stop them getting benefits. not sure about anyone else but my experience of living on benefits was hardship. so to say they are getting free money is ridiculous. yes they should be looking for work and applying and going to interviews but all this cost money and with no help i think this policy is wrong. or am i being to soft and this is exactly what needs to happen. i would take this to Davids house but i have no bus fare and as for George - well i am not looking for a wham so i am staying clear. )

[JoshBB]

A lot of 18-21yr olds need benefits because it's really hard to get a job. It would be better to invest in many smaller businesses that could employ them.

[Kizzy]

I think that's the plan to go back to apprenticeships, mind you they need to be better paid than the one's running currently for then to live and work.

[the truth]

help them with car insurance for a start.......what is it 4 grand for 18 year olds?

[Mystic Mock]

The Tories can just **** off.

[jennyjuniper]

A lot of 18-21yr olds need benefits because it's really hard to get a job. It would be better to invest in many smaller businesses that could employ them.

I agree, especially apprenticeships. But to be honest I would prefer young people to be given help, especially if they are genuinely looking for work) than pay out to people who pop a baby out every year, just so they can sit on their bums.

[Kazanne]

The Tories can just **** off.

What's wrong with wanting people to work if they can?

[Kizzy]

It's wrong because it's work... if it's work call it work and pay them a fair wage for doing it.

[Jamesy]

Thing is what is being reported in the news is already happening now, in a way.

I've been on jobseekers for 7 months, I've tried my hardest to find a job. I'm not a 'bum' and try very hard daily to get back into work. Although the treatment of others and myself has been disgusting. I get spoken to like a two year old with no brain cells, I've been threatened multiple times of having my benefits taken if I don't go on this course or that, I have a degree and the courses I have been forced (they say it's a choice but go on to threaten you will get no benefits) that have helped me in no way, they habe been easy and it's clear the jobcentre is only of use to those who didn't do well with their GCSEs and need to learn basic skills.

Now I am being forced to work 30 hours a week filing paperwork in an office. I'm happy enough to do it, but I don't like the manner in which I've been pushed to do it and threatened with no money. The thing that irks me most is that I'll be working 30 hours a week for £55 jobseekers, I'm grateful I'm getting something but honestly it feels like I'm being used as free labour for 2 months, which I probably am.

[waterhog]

Thing is what is being reported in the news is already happening now, in a way.

I've been on jobseekers for 7 months, I've tried my hardest to find a job. I'm not a 'bum' and try very hard daily to get back into work. Although the treatment of others and myself has been disgusting. I get spoken to like a two year old with no brain cells, I've been threatened multiple times of having my benefits taken if I don't go on this course or that, I have a degree and the courses I have been forced (they say it's a choice but go on to threaten you will get no benefits) that have helped me in no way, they habe been easy and it's clear the jobcentre is only of use to those who didn't do well with their GCSEs and need to learn basic skills.

Now I am being forced to work 30 hours a week filing paperwork in an office. I'm happy enough to do it, but I don't like the manner in which I've been pushed to do it and threatened with no money. The thing that irks me most is that I'll be working 30 hours a week for £55 jobseekers, I'm grateful I'm getting something but honestly it feels like I'm being used as free labour for 2 months, which I probably am.


jamesy - that broke my heart and this was one of my points. its totally disgraceful what they are doing and you are right - if you are working 30 hours a week for your benefits why don't they just give you this job and pay the minimum wage then you will be better off - less people will be unemployed and all is good - but i have a feeling its all to do with money and as they can get you to do it for free they will.

i am on your-side and i feel for you. chin up mate because it does seem like this world is :spin2:

[Kizzy]

Thing is what is being reported in the news is already happening now, in a way.

I've been on jobseekers for 7 months, I've tried my hardest to find a job. I'm not a 'bum' and try very hard daily to get back into work. Although the treatment of others and myself has been disgusting. I get spoken to like a two year old with no brain cells, I've been threatened multiple times of having my benefits taken if I don't go on this course or that, I have a degree and the courses I have been forced (they say it's a choice but go on to threaten you will get no benefits) that have helped me in no way, they habe been easy and it's clear the jobcentre is only of use to those who didn't do well with their GCSEs and need to learn basic skills.

Now I am being forced to work 30 hours a week filing paperwork in an office. I'm happy enough to do it, but I don't like the manner in which I've been pushed to do it and threatened with no money. The thing that irks me most is that I'll be working 30 hours a week for £55 jobseekers, I'm grateful I'm getting something but honestly it feels like I'm being used as free labour for 2 months, which I probably am.

This is an excellent example of my issue, this man is working for a company... he's doing a job.. why then is this not a position that he could legitimately fill if he wished?
He is still on welfare plus he's taking employment from someone who could really benefit from part time work, it's lose lose as I see it.

[Toy Soldier]

I think they have this idea in their head that all 18 to 21 year old have parents who can support them if it comes down to it. Which, obviously, is just not true for everyone. Everyone gets lumped into one category with no scope for other personal circumstances.

[joeysteele]

The Tories can just **** off.

You expressed my sentiments perfectly there Mock, I am ashamed at present that I ever would have supported them.

What is wrong with this is that if someone is unemployed between 18 to 21,for over 6 months they have to do work for their benefits.

What is wrong is that if the govt; of the day, no matter who it is,has not got the vacancies to accommodate the unemployed then no sanction should be put in place at all.

Talking to 18 to 21 year olds as if they were kids is just another example of this govts; arrogance and obsessed irrational vendetta as to those on benefits.
Of course create an environment where some work experience of a sort can be in place but this PM idiotically said, they could help prepeare meals for the elderly, things like community work.
I can tell you, the elderly will not want people thrust on them to make their meals or go into their homes to help care for them and do other chores.

To link this to, if they didn't, then they get no benefits is pathetic, okay, he did say or go into further education, well as long as they are helped to, then fine but even then, they should get an increased benefit if they do, not have threats to have benefits removed.

Force rarely ever works for the good when dealing with people,this govt; acts like a dicatatorship and almost describes 18 to 21 year olds as near inferior citizens.
To be forced and dictated to do the govts; bidding,'only' however if those 18 to 21 year olds are in the unfortunate postion of being unemployed.

Every time this PM opens his mouth it is to bring down and want to introduce another forced range of things on people who are down at the lowest end.
You never hear him say, any company that is not paying its full or any tax will be stopped from operating in the UK.

You never hear him say with the same gusto, any company not paying the minimum wage or a decent wage will get sanctions taken against them.
All he can do is bash the unemployed, sick, disabled and most vulnerable.

You know,I was thinking,you and I Mock, in 2010 when I first joined here, I recall both of us were Conservative sympathisers and saw a lot of right in their ideas at the time.
Whatever your political leanings are now is your affair, mine are well known, I think :joker:,on here now and around all my circle off here too.

You have,like me, come to see the actual way this govt; has gone about dealing with welfare reform and its policies as to how it treats the sick, disabled and most vulnerable are unjust, wrong and more often than not totally heartless.

How I hope more and more come to feel that way and then choose to send this absolute heartless rabble off into the political wilderness for a fair time until they realise the wrongs, the discrimination, the victimisation, the demonisation and scapegoating they have allowed to form and grow as to the weakest and most vulnerable in the UK's society.

This PM,for me is the worst ever I'd say the UK has ever had,his heartless, extreme and often cruel Ministers are even worse.
He and they need to be got rid of and sharpish in my view.

New welfare reform plans need to be planned but ones that have fairness, understanding,'respect',(yes respect for the dignity of the individuals who are the weakest and most vulnerable), and 'compassion' at the heart of them, not this prejudicial,dictatorial and unjust rolling out of heartlessness that has been evident for the last 5 years almost now, and which will be disastrously carried on with even more force were the Conservatives ever to get an overall majority.

I hope that day never comes for this PM and this make up of this Conservative party.
Well said Mock in your one sentence above.

[joeysteele]

It's wrong because it's work... if it's work call it work and pay them a fair wage for doing it.

You said it far quicker than me Kizzy.:joker:Well said.

[joeysteele]

Thing is what is being reported in the news is already happening now, in a way.

I've been on jobseekers for 7 months, I've tried my hardest to find a job. I'm not a 'bum' and try very hard daily to get back into work. Although the treatment of others and myself has been disgusting. I get spoken to like a two year old with no brain cells, I've been threatened multiple times of having my benefits taken if I don't go on this course or that, I have a degree and the courses I have been forced (they say it's a choice but go on to threaten you will get no benefits) that have helped me in no way, they habe been easy and it's clear the jobcentre is only of use to those who didn't do well with their GCSEs and need to learn basic skills.

Now I am being forced to work 30 hours a week filing paperwork in an office. I'm happy enough to do it, but I don't like the manner in which I've been pushed to do it and threatened with no money. The thing that irks me most is that I'll be working 30 hours a week for £55 jobseekers, I'm grateful I'm getting something but honestly it feels like I'm being used as free labour for 2 months, which I probably am.



You have evry right to feel that way because that is exactly what it is.
Good luck for the future Jamesy.

[Vanessa]

Thing is what is being reported in the news is already happening now, in a way.

I've been on jobseekers for 7 months, I've tried my hardest to find a job. I'm not a 'bum' and try very hard daily to get back into work. Although the treatment of others and myself has been disgusting. I get spoken to like a two year old with no brain cells, I've been threatened multiple times of having my benefits taken if I don't go on this course or that, I have a degree and the courses I have been forced (they say it's a choice but go on to threaten you will get no benefits) that have helped me in no way, they habe been easy and it's clear the jobcentre is only of use to those who didn't do well with their GCSEs and need to learn basic skills.

Now I am being forced to work 30 hours a week filing paperwork in an office. I'm happy enough to do it, but I don't like the manner in which I've been pushed to do it and threatened with no money. The thing that irks me most is that I'll be working 30 hours a week for £55 jobseekers, I'm grateful I'm getting something but honestly it feels like I'm being used as free labour for 2 months, which I probably am.

I agree. I have been off work for a while a few years ago and honestly it was hell. Not only you feel worthless and depressed, but the Jobcentre make you feel worse by always threatening to cut your benefit. I was so happy when i got my old job back. :(

[Scarlett.]

What's wrong with wanting people to work if they can?

Because the Tories are making it next to impossible for people to get jobs, thanks to their stupid Workfare schemes, the daylight robbery the call "Apprenticeships" and now they're planning on forcing people with jobs and benefits to look for a second job, or have them taken away.

All to artificially inflate the employment figures.

[Livia]

The thing I hear most often from young people leaving school/college/uni is that they can't get a job because they're told they have no experience, so how do they get experience if no one will give them a chance? Well, here's a chance to get some experience, maybe look at it like that. I know people who work in TV and did their internships for nothing in order to get experience, same in Parliament and I'm sure lots of other professions.

Apprenticeships are low paid. They have always been low paid, but you're learning a saleable skill. Of course, you could be at college or uni paying them for the privilege of getting a qualification.

Regarding Job Centres... I would vote for any party who shook up these places and made them work. They're terrible, soulless places full of people who would struggle to get employment outside the public sector because they have no people skills and flaunt the little power they have.

[Vanessa]

The thing I hear most often from young people leaving school/college/uni is that they can't get a job because they're told they have no experience, so how do they get experience if no one will give them a chance? Well, here's a chance to get some experience, maybe look at it like that. I know people who work in TV and did their internships for nothing in order to get experience, same in Parliament and I'm sure lots of other professions.

Apprenticeships are low paid. They have always been low paid, but you're learning a saleable skill. Of course, you could be at college or uni paying them for the privilege of getting a qualification.

Regarding Job Centres... I would vote for any party who shook up these places and made them work. They're terrible, soulless places full of people who would struggle to get employment outside the public sector because they have no people skills and flaunt the little power they have.

That is so true. Of course i have met some people who genuinely tried to help me at the Jobcentre, but most of them are on a power trip.

[Livia]

That is so true. Of course i have met some people who genuinely tried to help me at the Jobcentre, but most of them are on a power trip.

I suppose it's like everything, the few good ones get overshadowed by the scores of useless ones.

[Vanessa]

I suppose it's like everything, the few good ones get overshadowed by the scores of useless ones.

Yes. It's wrong to take advantage of someone in a vulnerable position. They know you won't complain, so they can do what they want.

[Scarlett.]

The thing I hear most often from young people leaving school/college/uni is that they can't get a job because they're told they have no experience, so how do they get experience if no one will give them a chance? Well, here's a chance to get some experience, maybe look at it like that. I know people who work in TV and did their internships for nothing in order to get experience, same in Parliament and I'm sure lots of other professions.

Apprenticeships are low paid. They have always been low paid, but you're learning a saleable skill. Of course, you could be at college or uni paying them for the privilege of getting a qualification.

Regarding Job Centres... I would vote for any party who shook up these places and made them work. They're terrible, soulless places full of people who would struggle to get employment outside the public sector because they have no people skills and flaunt the little power they have.
Old style apprenticeships were fine, they taught you decent skills that you wouldn't have had chance to learn otherwise. The ones I dislike are the ones like apprenticeships in Morrisons, all it is is a way to get people to do the same amount of work for less money.

[Kizzy]

Yes unpaid internships, they are only for the privileged that have the bank of mum and dad to fall back on, or get saddled with more debt on top of the £30,000.

Under 25s need work, they have the same expenditure as the rest of us, these 'apprenticeships' are a joke.

[Livia]

Old style apprenticeships were fine, they taught you decent skills that you wouldn't have had chance to learn otherwise. The ones I dislike are the ones like apprenticeships in Morrisons, all it is is a way to get people to do the same amount of work for less money.

Got to agree. Using the term 'apprenticeship' for jobs like that just diminishes the word to be honest.

[Vanessa]

get yourself a job ( david C aka mr credibility) 17.02.15

don't think this is a George (osbourne)
this is the organ grinder
Dave you are so fake its forge
its a ultimate low act not from your minder.
our job's are not on your pile
to you this is no shame
unlike a MP's job and shiny white smile
we are not all privileged to be over paid and still claim.
3 years we are targeting
the importance i will argue
like the "con party" and dress up and clever marketing
when you look its a empty menu.
no consideration about travel
or the job suitability
none of us have a second home and drive way gravel
or protection from a criminal corrupt facility. (Parliament)
why don't you target the fit and healthy
that think work is vile
instead of going for the young and least wealthy
i will tip you off, they will be watching Jeremy Vile.
the "welfare" is not a luxury budget
it is a pure squeeze
MP's spend a weeks unemployment on breakfast so begrudge it
this policy should bring all down to the knees.
sorry David Cameron to slam
but your government is a disgrace
now i present you with a "Wham"
take with you all your cronies and get out of this place.

( on the news i see this government is targeting the 18 to 21 age group and wants to stop them getting benefits. not sure about anyone else but my experience of living on benefits was hardship. so to say they are getting free money is ridiculous. yes they should be looking for work and applying and going to interviews but all this cost money and with no help i think this policy is wrong. or am i being to soft and this is exactly what needs to happen. i would take this to Davids house but i have no bus fare and as for George - well i am not looking for a wham so i am staying clear. )

I agree and it's harder to find work when you have no experience.

[Livia]

Yes unpaid internships, they are only for the privileged that have the bank of mum and dad to fall back on, or get saddled with more debt on top of the £30,000.

Under 25s need work, they have the same expenditure as the rest of us, these 'apprenticeships' are a joke.

That's what a lot of people think about unpaid internships, that's it's just for rich kids. Fact is that they're done by people with ambition and a will to work in a certain area. I know people who've done unpaid internships and held down a couple of part time jobs to pay the bills. Credit to them... if you need experience there's only one way to get it, and sitting on your backside moaning about other people being privileged isn't the way to go.

[Kizzy]

That's what a lot of people think about unpaid internships, that's it's just for rich kids. Fact is that they're done by people with ambition and a will to work in a certain area. I know people who've done unpaid internships and held down a couple of part time jobs to pay the bills. Credit to them... if you need experience there's only one way to get it, and sitting on your backside moaning about other people being privileged isn't the way to go.

It's not just my opinion you understand.

'Taking an unpaid internship can cost an individual £926 a month in London or £804 in Manchester, suggests research for an education charity.

The Sutton Trust says the cost of working for nothing rules out all but the wealthy and wants most interns to be paid at least minimum wage.

A third (31%) of graduate interns are unpaid, according to the charity's analysis of official data.

The CBI warned that banning unpaid internships could reduce opportunities.

The report uses government figures to suggest that some 22,000 interns may be working for nothing.

It analyses the costs of living in London and Manchester for interns on sixth-month work placements.

Taking into account rental for a room in a shared property, household bills, council tax, food and miscellaneous spending on items such as broadband, cleaning products and clothing, a Londoner would pay, £5,556 for the period and a Mancunian £4,827, amounting to £926 and £804 each month.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29996607

[Jamesy]

jamesy - that broke my heart and this was one of my points. its totally disgraceful what they are doing and you are right - if you are working 30 hours a week for your benefits why don't they just give you this job and pay the minimum wage then you will be better off - less people will be unemployed and all is good - but i have a feeling its all to do with money and as they can get you to do it for free they will.

i am on your-side and i feel for you. chin up mate because it does seem like this world is :spin2:

I agree entirely, and thank you :)

This is an excellent example of my issue, this man is working for a company... he's doing a job.. why then is this not a position that he could legitimately fill if he wished?
He is still on welfare plus he's taking employment from someone who could really benefit from part time work, it's lose lose as I see it.

Yes that's a big problem. I've heard some voluntary opportunities they get people on do lead to long term employment although these are very few and far between. A better system would be to place the unemployed on placements like that, then the 8 weeks works as some kind of work trial that could lead to a long term job if they perform well. There are always job around and I've thought that would be a good way to allow the employed to get back into work quicker.

[/B]
You have evry right to feel that way because that is exactly what it is.
Good luck for the future Jamesy.

Thank you :)

I agree. I have been off work for a while a few years ago and honestly it was hell. Not only you feel worthless and depressed, but the Jobcentre make you feel worse by always threatening to cut your benefit. I was so happy when i got my old job back. :(

That is so true. Of course i have met some people who genuinely tried to help me at the Jobcentre, but most of them are on a power trip.

Not nice is it :( I'm only powering through it because I have family/friends on my side I can vent to and get support from. Hopefully I will get off it soon though!

I agree there are some nice people at the jobcentre, I spoke to a lovely Employment Advisor last week and she did try to help me with some things. Agree with the power trip thing, I've heard some horror stories of treatments people have had. Some staff seem to think they can do what they want.

I think they have this idea in their head that all 18 to 21 year old have parents who can support them if it comes down to it. Which, obviously, is just not true for everyone. Everyone gets lumped into one category with no scope for other personal circumstances.

That's very true! Sadly it will never change either. As much as they could tailor support for each individual the government is not willing to invest in that, or push up the number of staff required to do that.

[Vanessa]

I agree entirely, and thank you :)



Yes that's a big problem. I've heard some voluntary opportunities they get people on do lead to long term employment although these are very few and far between. A better system would be to place the unemployed on placements like that, then the 8 weeks works as some kind of work trial that could lead to a long term job if they perform well. There are always job around and I've thought that would be a good way to allow the employed to get back into work quicker.



Thank you :)





Not nice is it :( I'm only powering through it because I have family/friends on my side I can vent to and get support from. Hopefully I will get off it soon though!

I agree there are some nice people at the jobcentre, I spoke to a lovely Employment Advisor last week and she did try to help me with some things. Agree with the power trip thing, I've heard some horror stories of treatments people have had. Some staff seem to think they can do what they want.



That's very true! Sadly it will never change either. As much as they could tailor support for each individual the government is not willing to invest in that, or push up the number of staff required to do that.

I'm sure you will find a job soon. Just try to stay positive. :hug:

[DemolitionRed]

The Tories can just **** off.

^This :)

Rise like lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number-------
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you--------
Ye are many…they are few.
Ercy Bysshe Shelly The Call to Freedom.

[DemolitionRed]

I haven’t read a great deal about this new/old apprenticeship scheme or how its going to work but I won’t hold my breath because the conservative government campaign are desperate to pull in votes from the poor and will stoop to any false promise to get that vote.

Before anyone votes we should all keep in mind that the conservative government does not give the poor people of Britain a voice and whilst huge sums of money are being shovelled into the bank accounts of the wealthy, hardworking British people on low incomes are not being represented.

I was recently reading an article that claimed 1 in 3 children in the UK are being raised in poverty. Their parents may be doing their best, but have to deal with the constant stress of lacking enough money to get by, either working in a monotonous low paid job or having no job to go to. Its these parents who will have to subsidize their 18 to 21 year old children when they can’t get work or benefits.

Misery, frustration and hopelessness comes to mind.

[kirklancaster]

That's what a lot of people think about unpaid internships, that's it's just for rich kids. Fact is that they're done by people with ambition and a will to work in a certain area. I know people who've done unpaid internships and held down a couple of part time jobs to pay the bills. Credit to them... if you need experience there's only one way to get it, and sitting on your backside moaning about other people being privileged isn't the way to go.

:worship: My wife works 60+ hours per week on minimum wage. I have worked all my life (sometimes for as little as £10 per day in real terms) and we have genuinely struggled at times - adverse times - bringing up three children. We made sacrifices; very real sacrifices; like only having one real holiday in 21 years, and even selling our home and possessions when times went really bad (the property crash) but the results of all this is evident every time I see what brilliant decent, educated, hard-working kids we have.

One of my sons has held part time jobs all the way through school from being 12 and has continued to do so through University where he has incurred loans of £30,000 in gaining his Law degree. The other is the same and took a below minimum wage B.S. job which first entailed him carrying out the most mind-numbingly menial drudgery, but he is now on £25,000 + company car with another firm - solely because of the experience he gained with the other firm.

I know everyone is different, but sometimes people seem comparatively 'well off' when the truth is - as you say - that they worked damned hard, made great sacrifices, and budgeted and planned.

[Toy Soldier]

:worship: My wife works 60+ hours per week on minimum wage. I have worked all my life (sometimes for as little as £10 per day in real terms) and we have genuinely struggled at times - adverse times - bringing up three children. We made sacrifices; very real sacrifices; like only having one real holiday in 21 years, and even selling our home and possessions when times went really bad (the property crash) but the results of all this is evident every time I see what brilliant decent, educated, hard-working kids we have.

One of my sons has held part time jobs all the way through school from being 12 and has continued to do so through University where he has incurred loans of £30,000 in gaining his Law degree. The other is the same and took a below minimum wage B.S. job which first entailed him carrying out the most mind-numbingly menial drudgery, but he is now on £25,000 + company car with another firm - solely because of the experience he gained with the other firm.

I know everyone is different, but sometimes people seem comparatively 'well off' when the truth is - as you say - that they worked damned hard, made great sacrifices, and budgeted and planned.

Kirk - I genuinely don't mean this to be offensive to your age - but I do think it's important to realise that the world today for young people trying to make it is entirely different to the world as it was even just a few decades ago. My wife's parents (who are in their 40's) have tried to sympathise with us at times when we have been struggling for cash in the past, as they "struggled" too, but the differences really are enormous. Her dad talks of how he worked many hours, and of jumping from job to job frequently. Which is all well and good but - put simply - in most medium-sized-or-smaller towns today working huge numbers of hours is unrealistic (there are not the hours available for everyone) and jumping straight from job to job is very rare, too (there are not the jobs available, either). They also bought their first home in their 20's (in the 1980s) for £12,000. Taking inflation into account that's a current price of £30,000. Now, we can't realistically buy a two bedroomed property in the area we live in for much under £100,000.

Also, I've mentioned my rental costs to older people at work (most of whom snapped up council houses for peanuts a few decades ago) - £525 per month for a two-bedroom semi detached house - and their jaws have almost hit the floor. We're looking to up-size to three bedrooms and there's nothing in the area for under £600pcm. Getting a first-time-buyer mortgage for anything more than a small flat is almost impossible, even though the outgoings on a mortgage for a similar house would probably be less than £600 a month. Lenders are just unwilling to commit.

Gas prices have soared, electricity prices have soared, public transport is utterly extortionate. If you have more than one person to transport, it's ALWAYS cheaper to drive, which is utterly stupid. And that includes factoring in road tax / car upkeep / insurance. And yet - running a car costs a lot more than it used to, as well.


These aren't excuses or designed to play down the achievements or the hard work of previous generations. I'm just saying that it's impossible to directly compare the problems faced by young people and young working families today to how things have been in the past. If I was the age I am now 30 years ago and in a comparable financial position to where I am right now... I would almost certainly have owned my own home for several years, and I would probably be seriously considering self-employment. Today, both of those are unrealistic for at least another 5+ years, even though our financial position is (I would guess) a fair bit better than a lot of parents in their 20's with two young children. In just over 5 years, I'll be 35. 30+ years ago that was really old for a first-time buyer. Today? I only personally know 3 people my age who own their own home. It's a very different world.

[kirklancaster]

Kirk - I genuinely don't mean this to be offensive to your age - but I do think it's important to realise that the world today for young people trying to make it is entirely different to the world as it was even just a few decades ago. My wife's parents (who are in their 40's) have tried to sympathise with us at times when we have been struggling for cash in the past, as they "struggled" too, but the differences really are enormous. Her dad talks of how he worked many hours, and of jumping from job to job frequently. Which is all well and good but - put simply - in most medium-sized-or-smaller towns today working huge numbers of hours is unrealistic (there are not the hours available for everyone) and jumping straight from job to job is very rare, too (there are not the jobs available, either). They also bought their first home in their 20's (in the 1980s) for £12,000. Taking inflation into account that's a current price of £30,000. Now, we can't realistically buy a two bedroomed property in the area we live in for much under £100,000.

Also, I've mentioned my rental costs to older people at work (most of whom snapped up council houses for peanuts a few decades ago) - £525 per month for a two-bedroom semi detached house - and their jaws have almost hit the floor. We're looking to up-size to three bedrooms and there's nothing in the area for under £600pcm. Getting a first-time-buyer mortgage for anything more than a small flat is almost impossible, even though the outgoings on a mortgage for a similar house would probably be less than £600 a month. Lenders are just unwilling to commit.

Gas prices have soared, electricity prices have soared, public transport is utterly extortionate. If you have more than one person to transport, it's ALWAYS cheaper to drive, which is utterly stupid. And that includes factoring in road tax / car upkeep / insurance. And yet - running a car costs a lot more than it used to, as well.


These aren't excuses or designed to play down the achievements or the hard work of previous generations. I'm just saying that it's impossible to directly compare the problems faced by young people and young working families today to how things have been in the past. If I was the age I am now 30 years ago and in a comparable financial position to where I am right now... I would almost certainly have owned my own home for several years, and I would probably be seriously considering self-employment. Today, both of those are unrealistic for at least another 5+ years, even though our financial position is (I would guess) a fair bit better than a lot of parents in their 20's with two young children. In just over 5 years, I'll be 35. 30+ years ago that was really old for a first-time buyer. Today? I only personally know 3 people my age who own their own home. It's a very different world.

I wasn't doing T.S. I was extending Livia's point that sometimes not all people who are regarded as 'well off' really are, and that sometimes even people who are (and it's all relative) have got their by forgoing a lot of the luxuries which some others indulge in.

I know from having kids just how hard it is to get jobs and buy a property and the 'Help to Buy Scheme' is only really benefiting truly wealthy parent's kids because of the caveats attached which actually preclude most working class kids from qualifying.

Anyway, I think you've misunderstood me T.S.

[DemolitionRed]

Also, I've mentioned my rental costs to older people at work (most of whom snapped up council houses for peanuts a few decades ago) - £525 per month for a two-bedroom semi detached house - and their jaws have almost hit the floor. We're looking to up-size to three bedrooms and there's nothing in the area for under £600pcm. Getting a first-time-buyer mortgage for anything more than a small flat is almost impossible, even though the outgoings on a mortgage for a similar house would probably be less than £600 a month. Lenders are just unwilling to commit.

.
I agree with everything you have said TS but wanted to add to the bit I’ve quoted.

If you live in many parts of London, you will only get a studio or flat share for that sort of money and if you wanted to buy, 100k would get you a 1 bed flat in a high rise in a really ****ty end of London.

My parent’s first 3 bed house in a fairly nice area of west London cost them 17k. That same house would now sell for around 500k. Half a million for a frigging terrace that is little more than a starter home!!

[Vanessa]

yes, renting in London is expensive. my one bedroom flat is £ 800 per month.

[waterhog]

just in from work and it is a pleasure to read all the comments on this thread. i think every point is valid and i can see nearly all opinions and i am glad the majority feel this government are going about things the wrong way.

i just hope i have not played into there hands in them kicking up a fuss about this to distract us from other stuff they are doing.

to prevent me falling in this trap everything a conservative says i reverse it to get my view.

thanks again everyone for your storys and views on this.

[Toy Soldier]

I agree with everything you have said TS but wanted to add to the bit I’ve quoted.

If you live in many parts of London, you will only get a studio or flat share for that sort of money and if you wanted to buy, 100k would get you a 1 bed flat in a high rise in a really ****ty end of London.

My parent’s first 3 bed house in a fairly nice area of west London cost them 17k. That same house would now sell for around 500k. Half a million for a frigging terrace that is little more than a starter home!!

At this point London is just off the charts. My company actually pays a "London Premium" of something like an extra 20% to London-based employees, and apparently that doesn't even come close to covering the difference in cost of living.

I'm in Scotland where, historically, property has been "cheap" but there have been large increases in recent years. £100k would get you a pretty decent house in some towns still, but I live in a rather affluent little village where property prices are generally pretty inflated. Still, I'd rather live in a crappy house in a nice place than a palace in a dump :joker:.

[the truth]

as much as I think the tories are pretty much obsessed with protecting the elite, I still think theyre doing a better job than the stinking spin doctors of tony bliars disgusting sub human perversion of socialism

[Kizzy]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11001894_10152554877370806_4435790958339284236_n.j pg?oh=296fcf504184512a5b9944b9bbbf0dd6&oe=558C63CA&__gda__=1432048167_7d3a18a87122b1b0df43f583f7812de c

[Vicky.]

Fine, if the jobs are there. It is a big issue the level of youth unemployment, no doubt about it, BUT again...taking away their only form of income is not going to help anything, not everyone has parents who can afford or are willing to keep them. Apprenticeships are great, if you are still living at home and have no responsibilities...but the wages are nowhere near enough if for some reason you can't do that. I would have been ****ed when I left school without the benefits system (and my grandma) as my mum kicked me out and my dad had just remarried this complete bitch who hates me...and I was literally on the street with nothing. Luckily I was able to claim something called hardship benefit...and my grandma supported me also, but she couldn't have afforded to keep me completely. I managed to find work in a taxi local office, £2.50 per hour cash in hand as the boss didn't want to pay NI and such but it was better than being on the dole. That jobs also lead to my criminal conviction for 'obtaining money by deception' funnily enough (long story but basically, boss who was vile, tried it on with me, then sacked me when I told him to piss off and said I wasnt getting my wages that were owed to me and that I couldn't prove he owed anything as the job wasn't legit, so I stole one of his presigned cheques and cashed it. Only for what was owed to me though...)

So anyway..I seem to have gone a bit offtopic..its all well and good if the positions are there for them and circumstances allow. But I do think a days work should equal a days pay tbh. I understand apprenticeships being training so not quite a job, and for stuff like plumbing and such I have no problem with the 'wage' being low. But the apprenticeships these days are literally just 'apprentice cleaner' 'apprentice sandwich artist' (aka, working in subway) and the employers just stick the word apprentice infront to get away with paying crap.

What seems the norm to some people is not for others. I think MPs would do well to remember that from time to time.

[Kizzy]

That was a great example of the people I think will be the victims in this reform vicky, those who rely on nobody but themselves and don't have the luxury of a supportive family.
I totally agree with you about modern apprenticeships, ' sandwich artist' :joker:

[Vicky.]

Sounds like a pisstake but its not unfortunately

http://www.notgoingtouni.co.uk/opportunity/apprentice-sandwich-artist-26446

All the jobs in the subways within about 10 miles of here were apprentice jobs...yeah apparently you do get some form of qualification for it.but seriously...it takes the piss. You do not need a qualification to make a sandwich, nor should a chain that makes so much cash use things like this to get out of paying a proper wage.

Also these sandwich artists still don't seem to know what 'NO CHEESE' means :bored:

[Vicky.]

Actually that link shows how much employers take the piss with apprenticeships...apprentice kitchen assistant, coffee shop apprentice, apprentice waiter. Etc.

[Kizzy]

disgusting isn't it? Those are the sort of jobs you did at 14-15 on a weekend, walk in and say got any jobs? ... 10 mins later you were working. :/