Britains Benefit Crackdown

[Josy]

This program is on Channel 4 at the moment.

In October 2012, the coalition introduced a new stricter sanctions regime. Benefits can now be suspended for up to three years– or reduced indefinitely for people claiming Employment and Support Allowance.
Channel 4 Dispatches has investigated how the stricter sanctions regime affects some vulnerable claimants and has interviewed former Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) staff who claim that there are targets for sanctions despite the government’s constant assurances that there are no targets.
New exclusive figures:
•Latest figures show 93,000 children were affected by sanctions over 12 months.[1](opens in a new window) The DWP told us they do not recognise these figures.
•Of DWP ‘peer reviews’ of 49 deaths following sanctions or when claimants had their benefit cut, 40 were carried out following a suicide or apparent suicide.


They were talking to Jobcentre workers who actually got suspended from work for not sanctioning enough jobseeker claimants, they have a target of sanctioning 80% of people claiming..

The DWP have also been ordering jobcentre employees to give out unrealistic targets to claimants knowing there is no way they can do what's being asked.

Opinions


My opinion is that it's completely disgraceful.

I know they are trying to get as much people into employment as possible but these actions are just another case of making the most vulnerable suffer.

And also these have been proven so I want to know what's going to be done about it.

[Ninastar]

Good. Far too many people live off of the government when they could easily get a job and work for themselves. Makes a real mockery of the people who do genuinely need help.

[Josy]

Good. Far too many people live off of the government when they could easily get a job and work for themselves. Makes a real mockery of the people who do genuinely need help.

Umm most of these people are the ones that genuinely need help.

It's not about people not wanting to work, the show is about bully tactics of the DWP, handing out unrealistic targets to people with prior knowledge that they can't carry them out therefore the DWP can then sanction their money.

This is affecting people that already struggle to live day to day with the pittance they receive on benefits.

[smudgie]

Targets..how the hell can you have targets like that.
Different areas have higher levels of unemployment to start with.
I am all for sorting the scroungers out, but this goes way beyond stupidity.

[Josy]

Targets..how the hell can you have targets like that.
Different areas have higher levels of unemployment to start with.
I am all for sorting the scroungers out, but this goes way beyond stupidity.

Totally agree smudge.

[Ninastar]

Umm most of these people are the ones that genuinely need help.

It's not about people not wanting to work, the show is about bully tactics of the DWP, handing out unrealistic targets to people with prior knowledge that they can't carry them out therefore the DWP can then sanction their money.

This is affecting people that already struggle to live day to day with the pittance they receive on benefits.

pardon me for not reading the thread... I thought it meant the general crackdown on benefits (which is needed), but yeah, I basically meant what Smudgie said without using the term scroungers.

[JoshBB]

living standards have really gone down since the coalition took power, we better hope that it's not the tories next time.

[Vicky.]

Targets..how the hell can you have targets like that.
Different areas have higher levels of unemployment to start with.
I am all for sorting the scroungers out, but this goes way beyond stupidity.

Its never been about sorting the scroungers out, its been about punishing the poor for being poor and finding a headline grabber to keep people from talking about the real problems in this country. Its a ****ing disgrace. I remember posting on here once about a friend (not sure if I posted on here or DS) who was sanctioned for taking her kid to hospital and missing a jobcentre appointment, even though she rang them as soon as was possible to let them know what had happened.

Sanction targets are a disgrace. How can you set a target when the sanction is supposed to only apply to people who are taking the piss?

[Kizzy]

It's looking to me less and less like reform and more like a cull.
It would be interesting to see how these changes have impacted on infant mortality rates.

[joeysteele]

Good post Josy and sadly this goes on all the time.
The whole set up is a disgrace and needs a massive change as to attitude.

This all stems from the totally vindictive and heartless aims of one Ian Duncan Smith, that man cannot be believed as to anything he says.
Whenever he gets interviewed, it is like an old pals act with the interviewer, he is never pressed on the dismissive line he takes as to all criticism of sanctions, wrongful removal or rejection of claims for legitimate benefits.

Aided in his aim of pure spite by this useless PM and the whole of this coalitiong govt;.it is only now a few months before the election that the Lib Dems are moaning at things they supported in parliament.

Of course. root out scroungers, and wrongful claims, however in doing so if the people that get hit the worst are those doing right and with genuine need as is happening accroding to that article and under direction to happen too,then that policy,plans and targets are totally 100% wrong.
It is totally indefensible and the sooner change comes as to the issue the better.

[Firewire]

too many lazy bastards in this country

[Firewire]

that was half a joke

[Jamesy]

I've known about these targets for a while. I've actually spotted paperwork in the Jobcentre a few times that mentions Workcoach (the advisors/people who deal with claimants) targets... I think it's disgusting really. They used to have a three strikes and you're sanctioned system too, for people who turn up late or do other minor things, recently I've heard they just skip that and sanction you outright.

I'm on Jobseekers at the moment. It's funny at times when I sit in there waiting to be seen and listen to all the conversations around. It's constant threats here, threats there, threats everywhere . I've had it done to myself, I was going to be put on a 4 week classroom based course about hospitality (no qualifications or certificates gained out of it), it's not an industry I'm particularly interested in and even so I worked in hospitality a few years ago so I have experience.. so I said I'm not interested in doing it and all I got back was "if you don't do this you're not doing what I recommend you to get back into work therefore you will be sanctioned as you must do what I recommend". I was going to say well if it's a recommendation then I don't have to do it at all and you're threatening me, although I didn't bother saying anything back. Just a simple yes put me on it, it sounds great and an amazing opportunity (don't think they can sanction me for sarcasm). I'm out of that course now as instead they've put me on 8 week slave labour, oops, "voluntary work".

I assume, like many others, you just nod and say yes to everything and never argue because when unemployed and struggling to live that £57 a week is desperately needed.

I've spoken to a few people who are starting to get their phones out at appointments and recording the conversations they have. I'm considering it myself, as I am actually worried with how the more I'm there the ruder I am spoken to.

The Jobcentre needs a massive revamp. All I've had and see other people have is threats, I'm not a lazy person and have genuinely struggled to find work since graduating from uni, although I am treated like scum and honestly I feel worse and worse each time I go there.

I agree with crackdowns on the people who do nothing and do live off the state, although new systems need to be placed to sift through these people. Generally you can spot these people a mile off. I guess when the government cannot be arsed to created an organised system they just move to the cheap alternative, threaten and bully.

[joeysteele]

I've known about these targets for a while. I've actually spotted paperwork in the Jobcentre a few times that mentions Workcoach (the advisors/people who deal with claimants) targets... I think it's disgusting really. They used to have a three strikes and you're sanctioned system too, for people who turn up late or do other minor things, recently I've heard they just skip that and sanction you outright.

I'm on Jobseekers at the moment. It's funny at times when I sit in there waiting to be seen and listen to all the conversations around. It's constant threats here, threats there, threats everywhere . I've had it done to myself, I was going to be put on a 4 week classroom based course about hospitality (no qualifications or certificates gained out of it), it's not an industry I'm particularly interested in and even so I worked in hospitality a few years ago so I have experience.. so I said I'm not interested in doing it and all I got back was "if you don't do this you're not doing what I recommend you to get back into work therefore you will be sanctioned as you must do what I recommend". I was going to say well if it's a recommendation then I don't have to do it at all and you're threatening me, although I didn't bother saying anything back. Just a simple yes put me on it, it sounds great and an amazing opportunity (don't think they can sanction me for sarcasm). I'm out of that course now as instead they've put me on 8 week slave labour, oops, "voluntary work".

I assume, like many others, you just nod and say yes to everything and never argue because when unemployed and struggling to live that £57 a week is desperately needed.

I've spoken to a few people who are starting to get their phones out at appointments and recording the conversations they have. I'm considering it myself, as I am actually worried with how the more I'm there the ruder I am spoken to.

The Jobcentre needs a massive revamp. All I've had and see other people have is threats, I'm not a lazy person and have genuinely struggled to find work since graduating from uni, although I am treated like scum and honestly I feel worse and worse each time I go there.

I agree with crackdowns on the people who do nothing and do live off the state, although new systems need to be placed to sift through these people. Generally you can spot these people a mile off. I guess when the government cannot be arsed to created an organised system they just move to the cheap alternative, threaten and bully.

This reads like a horror story but it is what I have come across helping others who have had sanctions, 'wrongly I may add', placed on them.

Really sorry you are having such a hard time,I hope things look up for you soon.

Shocking this even goes on in the UK at all,even worse that it is allowed to.

[Northern Monkey]

Its never been about sorting the scroungers out, its been about punishing the poor for being poor and finding a headline grabber to keep people from talking about the real problems in this country. Its a ****ing disgrace. I remember posting on here once about a friend (not sure if I posted on here or DS) who was sanctioned for taking her kid to hospital and missing a jobcentre appointment, even though she rang them as soon as was possible to let them know what had happened.

Sanction targets are a disgrace. How can you set a target when the sanction is supposed to only apply to people who are taking the piss?

Agree.Tarring everybody with the same brush is wrong.Many people are genuine jobseekers and don't want to live off the state and already feel bad enough for claiming.I felt like crap when i claimed for a few months a few years ago and those jc staff look at you like some kind of scumbag.Targets should not be involved when trying to help people into work,Specially when there are so few jobs around for us Brits anyway.

[the truth]

Umm most of these people are the ones that genuinely need help.

It's not about people not wanting to work, the show is about bully tactics of the DWP, handing out unrealistic targets to people with prior knowledge that they can't carry them out therefore the DWP can then sanction their money.

This is affecting people that already struggle to live day to day with the pittance they receive on benefits.

pls give us 1 or 2 examples without giving names of disbled or truly sick people who have had their benefits taken or cut....Id genuinely like to know if this is happenning

[the truth]

Targets..how the hell can you have targets like that.
Different areas have higher levels of unemployment to start with.
I am all for sorting the scroungers out, but this goes way beyond stupidity.

Good point

[joeysteele]

pls give us 1 or 2 examples without giving names of disbled or truly sick people who have had their benefits taken or cut....Id genuinely like to know if this is happenning

There have been numerous issues raised on political programmes as to this,people with cancer having their benefits reduced and being considered for some work as they only get chemotherapy every 10 days.

What do you think all the appeals are that have been through the courts as to the sick and disabled having benefits cut or taken away, not being put in the support group of ESA but instead being placed in the work related activity group,(wrag), on a lesser benefit rate.

Charities and welfare groups and even social workers have had to help the sick and disabled even as far as court, to get the DWPs decisions overturned.
9 times out of 10 those appeals are won by the claimant too.

I got involved in many cases,not dealing with them myself but with the law firm I was with, this govt; has made the appeals process harder.
They have allowed to close, many of the welfare organisations that help these people, even the CAB has has to trim down and they are swamped with the loss of benefits problems as well as the obscene bedroom tax among all the other issues people go to them with.

If more people got out there and saw the massive stress caused to genuinely sick and disabled claimants,stress they should not be having at all.
Then it would soon become apparant how heartless and rotten this govts; reforms as to welfare have been and how they have hit the wrong claimants all the time.

Also,I am currently helping with a claim for PIP, the replacement for DLA, the claimant who has dementia, had a claim put in 6 months ago, they are still waiting to even hear if they are going to get it,as there is a backlog having to be dealt with.
That is disgusting to have to wait so long just for a decision.

Of course you won't find this prominant,if at all, in the press,they can only,if they do report it, put in in tiny sections somewhere in the middle pages, however if they find one scrounger then that will be all over the front pages.
Then people actually take on board that must be the norm as to benefit claimants,rather than find out the real facts.

I can tell you of another instance, someone told they couldn't claim ESA because they were too fit,then told they should claim jobseekers, they claimed jobseekers and were told they weren't fit enough to claim jobseekers and need to claim ESA, this went on for months before they finaly got something other than an emergency payment to tide them over.

This govt; has been told time and time again by charities,welfare groups and the CAB, as to the problems and distress caused to the sick and disabled by the changes to benefits.
It is dismissed, just like all things by this govt:
A rotten cruel govt; that has developed such a heartless arrogance, it doesn't even likely even look at what's going on.

It has lost appeal after appeal for years as to the loss of benefits to claimants.
Try to talk to some charities and welfare groups, they should be able to outline the problems the sick and disabled are having as to benefits problems.

That is what I did,and I was stunned at what I learned.
Then through my work,I was able to, in part,help and advise the sick and disabled to get their benefits fully restored again after being wrongly taken away from them.
Leaving me appalled that any genuine and sick person had to end up in court,with all the anxiety and distress that can cause, to fight to get their due entitlements under the law.

As Josy's excellent point and opening post to this thread states,this has been ongoing under new policy guidelines since 2012, under this rotten shower, no one else for these points.

It is another reason why for me anyway, this arrogant, smug,ignorant heartless shower get turfed out in May.
They dismiss everything and listen to no one, not about the weakest and most vulnerable.

Look at their attitude on food banks.
They always just argue use of food banks went up by over 10 times under Labour in 13 years.
It did from around 4,000 using them to over 40,000.
They then argue again,up to a year ago, that it had risen by again 10 times under the coalition, as if that is a justification.

Rising from 4,000 to over 40,000 is nothing like rising from 40,000 to over 400,000 and I understand it is estimated that the figure is more like half a million now.
More evidence of this govts; arrogance and dismissiveness to all things concerning the most vulnerable.

[Vanessa]

When i was on benefits i had mine cut for a week for missing an appointment. Granted that was my fault. I messed up the dates. :laugh:

[joeysteele]

When i was on benefits i had mine cut for a week for missing an appointment. Granted that was my fault. I messed up the dates. :laugh:

Vanessa,it is easy to get dates mixed up, they will pounce in an instant as to that but I come across people who have been told to attend an interview at the jobcentre,when they have got there then being told no appointment is recorded for them that day and told to go home.

Also I know someone who was sanctioned for not going to a job interview the jobcentre had arranged for them at 11.30am on a particular day.
A day they had an interview themselves at 10am and another at 1.30pm some distance apart.
They told the jobcentre this but they said they must go to that interview too.

The first interview took until after 11 am, no way could they get to the 11.30am jobcentre arranged one.
They were then told they would be being sanctioned for not going to it.

As it turned out, they got the 1.30pm job they went for and were able to tell the jobcentre where to go.
It doesn't always end up with that good result however and as you point out, people can get sanctioned ridiculously.

[Vanessa]

Vanessa,it is easy to get dates mixed up, they will pounce in an instant as to that but I come across people who have been told to attend an interview at the jobcentre,when they have got there then being told no appointment is recorded for them that day and told to go home.

Also I know someone who was sanctioned for not going to a job interview the jobcentre had arranged for them at 11.30am on a particular day.
A day they had an interview themselves at 10am and another at 1.30pm some distance apart.
They told the jobcentre this but they said they must go to that interview too.

The first interview took until after 11 am, no way could they get to the 11.30am jobcentre arranged one.
They were then told they would be being sanctioned for not going to it.

As it turned out, they got the 1.30pm job they went for and were able to tell the jobcentre where to go.
It doesn't always end up with that good result however and as you point out, people can get sanctioned ridiculously.

OMG They were so lucky they got the job. :shocked:

[joeysteele]

OMG They were so lucky they got the job. :shocked:

Very much so Vanessa.
It is shocking the way people are being treated,also the way the jobcentre staff, well some of them, speak to people too as was pointed by a poster above, is an absolute disgrace too.

[Vanessa]

Very much so Vanessa.
It is shocking the way people are being treated,also the way the jobcentre staff, well some of them, speak to people too as was pointed by a poster above, is an absolute disgrace too.

Yes, i agree. it's rare to find anyone helpful at the jobcentre. I was glad when i got my old job back.

[Glenn.]

When I signed on a few years ago I recieved a letter through the door informing me of an interview I had to attend. The date of the interview was that day's date at 2pm. It came through my letterbox at quarter to 2. Luckily enough I was able to phone and let them know what had happened to get it sorted but if I hadn't have opened it I would have missed the appointment and been sanctioned for it.

The hilarious part is when I went down after they rescheduled it, I was told I didn't have an appointment.

[Nedusa]

Its never been about sorting the scroungers out, its been about punishing the poor for being poor and finding a headline grabber to keep people from talking about the real problems in this country. Its a ****ing disgrace. I remember posting on here once about a friend (not sure if I posted on here or DS) who was sanctioned for taking her kid to hospital and missing a jobcentre appointment, even though she rang them as soon as was possible to let them know what had happened.

Sanction targets are a disgrace. How can you set a target when the sanction is supposed to only apply to people who are taking the piss?

Totally agree........ it looks like the Govt is simply inventing more and more ways to punish people who are unemployed. It really is disgraceful expecting these people to jump through hoops to claim benefit that they are fully entitled to.

It's as if the Govt doesn't want to pay anything out to anybody...

Well if you don't want to have a Welfare system........then don't have one, scrap the whole thing. Because to constantly make the system more and more onerous so people will either stop claiming completely or spend 40 hrs a week filling in the dam forms to claim a small pittance is just shameful.

Every week we hear about these new initiatives to try and ensure people are working really hard to find a job.. but to be honest people have paid taxes that fund these benefits and so in most cases especially with unemployment benefit are only getting back what they paid in so why are these people being virtually humiliated when trying to claim these benefits.

[Kizzy]

nzf0DrbQJrQ

[rubymoo]

nzf0DrbQJrQ

Absolutely brilliant Kizzy and sadly very true.

[rubymoo]

My husband was made redundant a few years ago, he'd worked fulltime for over 20 years paying his tax and NI, we'd never made a claim, so when he was sanctioned for not filling his form in properly (he put ticks in boxes rather than to keep writing out the same sentence) he got no warnings, no one put him right, just immediate sanction:shocked:

That left us with no income, a mortgage and 2 children to look after, he'd been claiming for a month, and he got sanctioned, safe to say his signing on was one of the most stressful times of our married life.

Thankfully he got a job a month after his sanction, but that left us with no money for 2 months.

Everytime i see that unemployment has gone down i think .....no...there's been a lot of sanctions, ridiculous to put pressure on job centre staff to sanction.

[Kizzy]

'A Tory MP stunned fellow parliamentarians after defending the benefits system that left a jobseeker with learning difficulties without food or electricity after he was four minutes late for a Jobcentre appointment.'


The article links to the debate and written in Hansard is this exchange that highlights the blinkered perception the conservatives have and the myth they perpetuate...

'Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I have great sympathy for some of the individual cases that the hon. Lady has talked about, but I want to introduce a note of perspective based on my own constituency experience. The last time I checked with my jobcentre, just before Christmas, fewer than 5% of all the people seen there had been sanctioned over the previous 12 months. We are talking about a minority, and she is talking about a very tiny minority of an already small minority. I also want to put in a word for the sanctions regime, because from the experience of what I have seen, the threat of sanctions has been of assistance in galvanising people to maintain their appointments and genuinely to seek work.

Lisa Nandy: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for trying to bring statistics to the debate, but they do not reflect the reality. Glasgow university has found that across the country, one in five have been sanctioned, and 6,000 families in my borough alone. In the past few
4 Feb 2015 : Column 106WH

weeks, research from Oxford university shows that the majority of people who have been kicked off benefits due to sanctions have not gone into work. So it is simply not true to say that we are talking only about a minority.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/05/tory-mp-mark-spencer-starve-dark_n_6622468.html

[joeysteele]

Excellent video that Kizzy, only line wrong in it was, not that 'to bring the country to its knees' but 'the most vulnerable to their knees'.

Really just about all the assistance still for pensioners and the most vulnerable are what Labour had put in place.

[the truth]

the real crooks are those lazy barstewards who are fit to work yet milk the benefits/........I don't care if they knock out 30 babies , its not for you me and society to pay for their babies. they should be forced to work or else social services should be brought in to take their children. these lazy twats who breed just to milk benefits and live like pigs sicken me to the very core of my existence. its a form of child abuse in many cases. 10 kids dog dog breeding smoking drinking sometimes drugs too.....worklessness and entitelement breeds a greedy lazy attitude which teaches their kids all the wrong values.....before we go to the evil right wing argument, theyre twats too......theres 2 massive problems labour keep the poor poor and on benefist so they always have to vote labour..........tories take the taxes off the elite and whack the poor with 20% vat.....under both the gap between rich and poor grows....tories are wolves , labour are wolves in sheeps clothing........I could never vote for either.

[Glenn.]

the real crooks are those lazy barstewards who are fit to work yet milk the benefits/........I don't care if they knock out 30 babies , its not for you me and society to pay for their babies. they should be forced to work or else social services should be brought in to take their children. these lazy twats who breed just to milk benefits and live like pigs sicken me to the very core of my existence. its a form of child abuse in many cases. 10 kids dog dog breeding smoking drinking sometimes drugs too.....worklessness and entitelement breeds a greedy lazy attitude which teaches their kids all the wrong values.....before we go to the evil right wing argument, theyre twats too......theres 2 massive problems labour keep the poor poor and on benefist so they always have to vote labour..........tories take the taxes off the elite and whack the poor with 20% vat.....under both the gap between rich and poor grows....tories are wolves , labour are wolves in sheeps clothing........I could never vote for either.

Some great generalisation there

[Tom4784]

People on benefits are easy targets, they've been demonised by tabloids and politicians so much that no one will bat an eyelid when they're mistreated and abused. Some of the schemes that have come to fruition in recent years are damn close to being human rights abuse.

I've got a friend who's on a program which basically forces her to go to the job centre for 37 hours a week and just job search. She's told me that she's not allowed to stretch her legs and she pretty much has to beg to go to the toilet without being sanctioned. Forcing people to sit in front of computers all day without regular breaks is breaking so many of the governments own health and safety regulations, why are jobseekers treated like lesser human beings? why are the government allowed to break their own laws when it comes to the unemployed?

I've got another friend who's on this thing called Daily Sign On which basically forces him to come sign on every day and it costs him a ton of money since they refuse to pay travel expenses. Worst of all is that he was about to start a construction course and had some voluntary work lined up. These schemes aren't helping people and I'm willing to bet that in a lot of cases they are actively detrimental to jobseeker's prospects.

The Coalition and the job centre are not interested in getting people jobs, they just want them off benefits through any underhand method they can get away with.

[the truth]

Some great generalisation there

sarcasm is still the lowest for of wit............these are real life experiences

[Tom4784]

sarcasm is still the lowest for of wit............these are real life experiences

Watching Shameless doesn't qualify as real life experiences.

[the truth]

People on benefits are easy targets, they've been demonised by tabloids and politicians so much that no one will bat an eyelid when they're mistreated and abused. Some of the schemes that have come to fruition in recent years are damn close to being human rights abuse.

I've got a friend who's on a program which basically forces her to go to the job centre for 37 hours a week and just job search. She's told me that she's not allowed to stretch her legs and she pretty much has to beg to go to the toilet without being sanctioned. Forcing people to sit in front of computers all day without regular breaks is breaking so many of the governments own health and safety regulations, why are jobseekers treated like lesser human beings? why are the government allowed to break their own laws when it comes to the unemployed?

I've got another friend who's on this thing called Daily Sign On which basically forces him to come sign on every day and it costs him a ton of money since they refuse to pay travel expenses. Worst of all is that he was about to start a construction course and had some voluntary work lined up. These schemes aren't helping people and I'm willing to bet that in a lot of cases they are actively detrimental to jobseeker's prospects.

The Coalition and the job centre are not interested in getting people jobs, they just want them off benefits through any underhand method they can get away with.

if they don't like it why don't they got off their subsidised backsides, drop the self pity and feeling sorry for yourselves and get a job. I did so did 35 million other job. there are ALWAYS jobs available. unless a person is disabled or sick they should work, end of

[the truth]

Watching Shameless doesn't qualify as real life experiences.

never even heard of the show it seems you know more about it

[Glenn.]

if they don't like it why don't they got off their subsidised backsides, drop the self pity and feeling sorry for yourselves and get a job. I did so did 35 million other job. there are ALWAYS jobs available. unless a person is disabled or sick they should work, end of

This is the most ignorant thing I have read on here for a while. Congratulations.

[Tom4784]

if they don't like it why don't they got off their subsidised backsides, drop the self pity and feeling sorry for yourselves and get a job. I did so did 35 million other job. there are ALWAYS jobs available. unless a person is disabled or sick they should work, end of

As malicious as it sounds I do wish that one day you'll find yourself unemployed and at the mercy of the Job Centre. It's very easy to judge others from your ignorant high horse but I don't think you would cope with the pressure placed on jobseekers, you would not cope at all.

The system is designed to break jobseekers, not help them and people like you allow it to happen by swallowing all of the tabloid bull**** willingly.

[Vanessa]

As malicious as it sounds I do wish that one day you'll find yourself unemployed and at the mercy of the Job Centre. It's very easy to judge others from your ignorant high horse but I don't think you would cope with the pressure placed on jobseekers, you would not cope at all.

The system is designed to break jobseekers, not help them and people like you allow it to happen by swallowing all of the tabloid bull**** willingly.

I agree. If you haven't been in that situation you just can't understand. I have claimed only for a few months and it was so stressful. Thank god i started work again. Even in my job we are allowed breaks and we work 10 hours a day. :shocked:

[the truth]

This is the most ignorant thing I have read on here for a while. Congratulations.

No its not youre lying

[Glenn.]

I'm not

[the truth]

As malicious as it sounds I do wish that one day you'll find yourself unemployed and at the mercy of the Job Centre. It's very easy to judge others from your ignorant high horse but I don't think you would cope with the pressure placed on jobseekers, you would not cope at all.

The system is designed to break jobseekers, not help them and people like you allow it to happen by swallowing all of the tabloid bull**** willingly.

Ive never bought a tabloid paper in my life nor do I ever read them so youre 100% wrong yet again. my opinions, unlike yours are based on extensive personal experiences. I can back up every single comment with endless anecdotes, you clearly cant youre brainwashed by left wing liberal drivel

How do you know Ive never been unemployed or sick? you jump to the wrong conclusions as always. You judge others from your ignorant high horse , including me. How do you know what Id cope with you know nothing. youre the ignorant one here. The system is whatever you want it to be. if you want to work you will work if you want to bitch and moan and have a chip on both shoulders you will never work. ONLY disabled and sick people should be allowed these benefits long term. everyone else should have to work for their handouts or get a job like everyone else. I have extensive experience Ive employed 100s of people, have you? Those who are lucky enough to enjoy decent health , that are honest and hard working ALWAYS succeed, they ALWAYS earn a decent living and ALWAYS improve their careers as time goes on. The rest piss and moan. yet the reality is many healthy lazypeople who choose to live off benefits have more disposable income than many in work. they people I know who do not work all smoke and drink. they have more time and money to do so.

Ive also been at deaths door, on skid row and unemployed. You know nothing.youve been reading and listening to do much liberal drivel. the trouble with the far left it always wastes other peoples money. why is a person who choses to have 6 to 10 kids entitled to have their lifestyle paid for by other peoples hard work? its immoral and it shows those kids all the wrong morals. These people are responsible for these children not other people.

[the truth]

I'm not

back up your claims then (lies) you clearly cannot. why feel entitled to other peoples money? people who work for a living to give to those healthy people who CHOOSE to decline all jobs and sit on their backsides living off the state?

[Glenn.]

back up your claims then (lies) you clearly cannot. why feel entitled to other peoples money? people who work for a living to give to those healthy people who CHOOSE to decline all jobs and sit on their backsides living off the state?

Yes, I'm clearly lying. Great detective work there.

You seem to be lumping everybody who claim benefits into one stereotypical group and I'm afraid to ruin your pretty misguided picture but that simply isn't the case. At all. Sure there are a few 'scroungers' that simply don't want to work, that's fine but the for the majority, it isn't the case.

You sit there and spout ignorant crap about how people should just get on with it and get a job and the harsh reality is that it isn't that simple and I'm speaking from personal experience. My work ethnic is absolute and when I came out of work a few years ago, I had to sign on, because if I didn't I would have gone into extreme debt. Having to sign on was the most degrading part of my life but it had to be done. I don't appreciate being told by someone like you, that I should have got on with and got a job like they are just handing them out like sweets. It isn't simple and I am so grateful to be working right now because I know how hard it can be for people that are made to feel like the scum of earth by people like you who have no idea.
And as for being entitled to other peoples money, that is the most ignorant of all your ignorant and down right insulting 'facts'. I paid a hell of a lot into the system and continue to do so today. It's actually what helped me through that ****ty time in my life, because of people like you, I actaully felt ashamed to be signing until I realised the money I was getting was what I had paid in.

[Josy]

back up your claims then (lies) you clearly cannot. why feel entitled to other peoples money? people who work for a living to give to those healthy people who CHOOSE to decline all jobs and sit on their backsides living off the state?

These posts are so misguided it's actually quite astonishing. You are generalising every single person receiving benefits and branding them all into one category.

Thousands of benefits claimants are people that have worked all their days and now have the bad luck of losing their jobs, they have paid into the system all their lives and have a right to claim the help they need until they get back on their feet, to say they feel entitled to other peoples money is completely ridiculous.

Of course there are people who abuse the system and don't want to work, and it's up to the DWP to find out who those people are and deal with them so maybe they should put some effort into that rather than giving jobcentre staff targets for sanctioning people? The thread was made about the way the DWP are handing out unrealistic targets to claimants (people that are desperate to find work) for the sole purpose of sanctioning their benefits when they fail to meet the targets.

So do you have an actual opinion on that or are you just here to insult jobseekers?

[arista]

Absolutely brilliant Kizzy and sadly very true.

Yes also under New Labour
the very old were freezing

[Kizzy]

Nothing at all to back up that nonsensical statement Arista?....didn't think so.

[Kizzy]

'Benefit sanctions can plunge families into financial crisis, hunger, and dependency on food banks for up to half a year, far longer than the period for which they have had payments stopped, according to a new study.

The study, Cheshire Hunger looked in detail at the reasons why people had been given food bank vouchers and estimated the length of time they would be dependent on food aid.

It adds to a growing body of evidence directly linking welfare reforms with food bank use, and comes as a coalition of major churches call for an overhaul of the “inhumane” sanctions system.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/patrick-butler-cuts-blog/2015/mar/02/food-banks-benefit-sanctions-leave-clients-hungry-for-months


'More than 93,000 of Britain's poorest children went hungry last year due to cruel benefit cuts, a damning new report shows.

David Cameron has hugely increased the use of cash-saving punishments such as stopping payments for a month or more for welfare claimants who fail to meet strict Job Centre demands.

But the Coalition’s welfare cuts and brutal penalties hit society’s most vulnerable hardest and in effect punish kids for their parents’ failings, the report claims.'

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/100000-children-left-starving-result-5255846

[joeysteele]

if they don't like it why don't they got off their subsidised backsides, drop the self pity and feeling sorry for yourselves and get a job. I did so did 35 million other job. there are ALWAYS jobs available. unless a person is disabled or sick they should work, end of

That's a sweeping generalisation as to all people out of work the truth, sometimes you make good points in my view but that post is way off the mark for me.

If the scroungers were all caught, if those all claiming benefits wrongly were stopped from doing so,the welfare bill would drop very marginally indeed.
the numbers would stay almost the same apart for an odd 1% max.

There are not 'real' jobs a plenty out there, a great number of benefit claimants are in fact people in work as you call it but it is in part time jobs where they need to, and have the right to, claim benefits to subsidise income.

I also have to applaud Dezzy's post that you responded to, he is spot on in my view, as to the changes to benefits,the clawing back of benefits and the demonisation of claimants is extremely close to being, if not so already,abuse of human rights.
I will also say, had this been a Labour govt; doing this change to benefits and demonising claimants, they would be being pilloried day after day in the rotten press we have too.

I have no time at all for people in power that use that power to demonise and bring down the most vulnerable.

Your comment as to there being plenty of jobs to get is astounding, if you really believe that and if it is the case where you are maybe well that is great to know for sure, perhaps everyone out of work should move there,it sounds like a wonderland.

[Livia]

So, the people who are living high on the hog... the people who don't work, haven't worked for ages and still manage to live a fairly good life... how do they do it? I am aware that they are not the majority, but there is a large minority of people who choose not to work, who maybe think certain jobs are beneath them who live well, holiday abroad, have a social life... Is there some secret formula that says, if you want to sit on your arse forever, we'll fund it. But it you've worked, and you're looking for another job, we'll whack you with sanctions? It makes no sense to me.

[Kizzy]

They don't... it's a fallacy, unless you're a criminal there is no way that jobseekers allows that.
How can you sign on daily and holiday abroad?

[Livia]

Obviously those people aren't on Jobseekers Allowance so I'd really like to know how they fund their lifestyle. I know several people who live like this... I'm sure we all do. Sadly everyone on benefits will be tarred with the same brush.

[joeysteele]

Yes also under New Labour
the very old were freezing

Really, Labour brought in pension credit that gave all over 60 an additional income.
Labour brought in the winter fuel allowance of £200+ for pensioners and also increased for the most vulnerable, the cold weather payments from the Conservatives paltry £8 to £9 for every 7day below freezing period,up to £25.
None of which have had increases made to them under this coalition.

The very old had less need to freeze under Labour than under this lot, who have also presided over some of the highest ever increases of energy prices as to gas and electricity seen since 2010.
That's before we even start on water fees too.

[Kizzy]

Obviously those people aren't on Jobseekers Allowance so I'd really like to know how they fund their lifestyle. I know several people who live like this... I'm sure we all do. Sadly everyone on benefits will be tarred with the same brush.

The thread is about the sanctions to jobseekers and whether they are right or fair, if someone you know has another source of income that's not the issue is it?
Tarred with what brush... how has the discussion flipped to claimants?

[AnnieK]

I honestly don't know anyone personally on job seekers but I have heard some horror stories about people being sanctioned unfairly but equally I'm sure a lot of sanctions are fair...if people don't keep to the rules there has to be consequences.

[user104658]

Obviously those people aren't on Jobseekers Allowance so I'd really like to know how they fund their lifestyle. I know several people who live like this... I'm sure we all do. Sadly everyone on benefits will be tarred with the same brush.

For most there will be a disability claim involved - some will have a genuine reason that they can't work, others will be full on fraudulent but I think it's going a bit far to call it a "large" minority. However - yes - there does appear to be a "secret formula" that allows fraudulent claims to be made but the answer to that is NOT subjecting everyone to more tests, more scrutiny and more sanctions. Because the people who are doing it have been doing it for years and are experts at getting around these sorts of things, so the ONLY people who are being impacted by this regime of "shaming" and punitive measures, are genuine claimants. The people scamming the system will just find new ways to scam the system.

[joeysteele]

For most there will be a disability claim involved - some will have a genuine reason that they can't work, others will be full on fraudulent but I think it's going a bit far to call it a "large" minority. However - yes - there does appear to be a "secret formula" that allows fraudulent claims to be made but the answer to that is NOT subjecting everyone to more tests, more scrutiny and more sanctions. Because the people who are doing it have been doing it for years and are experts at getting around these sorts of things, so the ONLY people who are being impacted by this regime of "shaming" and punitive measures, are genuine claimants. The people scamming the system will just find new ways to scam the system.

Absolutely spot on, and in the end massive stress and anxiety and even worse ill health can be,and often is, the result of demonising,attacking and penalising the vast majority of innocents to get at the tiny minority of,to use your description,scammers.

[user104658]

I honestly don't know anyone personally on job seekers but I have heard some horror stories about people being sanctioned unfairly but equally I'm sure a lot of sanctions are fair...if people don't keep to the rules there has to be consequences.

I was briefly on Jobseekers 6 years ago and they tried to sanction me for giving up the job I had when I was a student... 400 miles from where I had moved to after graduation to be with my pregnant fiancée. You can't get jobseekers if you have "quit" a job without good reason.

It was overturned on appeal when I explained, repeatedly, that as I had been living in a Student house I didn't even have anywhere to live in the town I had been a student in :shrug:. Took a fair bit of form-filling to have them accept that as a good reason though, I think I was supposed to just sleep in a bag outside the place I was working.

At the time we had nothing - literally nothing - and a fair whack of student credit card debt to boot... we would have been homeless and starving. That's a major problem with these sanctions. The politicians dreaming them up seem to have no concept of what actual poverty is. Most of them were born into families who had the means to support them through private schools and set them up for life... they don't get that people "sanctioned for a couple of months" don't have savings to tide them over, or family who can bail them out.

I can even almost get on board with it if it's just single claimants, or just JSA. Most people can find a couch to sleep on, if it really comes down to it. When it comes down to the bare bones, one healthy individual without responsibilities can fend for themself.

But sanctioning families, with children, is completely and utterly immoral and is happening far too often.

[edit] Just thought I'd add to this one, that being on Jobseeker's and attending that wretched center was easily the most horrific and demeaning experience of my entire life. It was genuinely awful, and I was only on it for 4 months. And that was before most of these crushing reforms. I genuinely feel for anyone in that situation - the VAST majority want nothing more than to work, and most of them have the ability and the experience to take up jobs without the ridiculous courses and "work experience" that is forced on them.

[user104658]

Absolutely spot on, and in the end massive stress and anxiety and even worse ill health can be,and often is, the result of demonising,attacking and penalising the vast majority of innocents to get at the tiny minority of,to use your description,scammers.

Another often overlooked part of it is people who shouldn't be working plugging on because they are so scared of the system... the very people who DO absolutely need it. My first day at work when I moved up to Scotland from England, I was working alongside a lovely lady in her late 50's. The first thing she said to me was "If I start wheezing and struggling for breath don't worry, I sometimes just need to take a wee minute!". She has a degenerative lung condition and was "wheezing and struggling for breath" next to me for 18 months - refusing to leave the job even though every colleague, company supervisors, the HR department, and even at one point the director for the whole of Scotland, was telling her that she was killing herself. Basically, attacks or intense stress can cause degeneration of her lung capacity and once that has happened it can never be recovered... she was getting worse almost on a monthly basis - the job can often be fast-paced and stressful.

She did eventually conceed defeat and left, and was immediately awarded highest level disability without question. And that's under the current regime. I'm unsurprised as you only have to talk to her for 5 minutes to know that she is not fit to be working (although I would also have been unsurprised if they'd told her to crawl back to work and die...). Anyway, the point is, she was VERY clearly unfit to work but she was so scared by the stories that she was willing to work herself to death rather than try to claim. That was about 3 years ago that she left... she still comes in to say hello and isn't much worse than when she left. If she had stayed at work I am pretty much sure that she would be dead or bedridden by now.

[joeysteele]

Another often overlooked part of it is people who shouldn't be working plugging on because they are so scared of the system... the very people who DO absolutely need it. My first day at work when I moved up to Scotland from England, I was working alongside a lovely lady in her late 50's. The first thing she said to me was "If I start wheezing and struggling for breath don't worry, I sometimes just need to take a wee minute!". She has a degenerative lung condition and was "wheezing and struggling for breath" next to me for 18 months - refusing to leave the job even though every colleague, company supervisors, the HR department, and even at one point the director for the whole of Scotland, was telling her that she was killing herself. Basically, attacks or intense stress can cause degeneration of her lung capacity and once that has happened it can never be recovered... she was getting worse almost on a monthly basis - the job can often be fast-paced and stressful.

She did eventually conceed defeat and left, and was immediately awarded highest level disability without question. And that's under the current regime. I'm unsurprised as you only have to talk to her for 5 minutes to know that she is not fit to be working (although I would also have been unsurprised if they'd told her to crawl back to work and die...). Anyway, the point is, she was VERY clearly unfit to work but she was so scared by the stories that she was willing to work herself to death rather than try to claim. That was about 3 years ago that she left... she still comes in to say hello and isn't much worse than when she left. If she had stayed at work I am pretty much sure that she would be dead or bedridden by now.


That is both a good example and bad in the other aspect,(thank you for sahring that on here Toy Soldier), that she felt so worried about the system that she likely would have gone on and on.

Really good news to hear she got the due benefit entitlements with little problem,that is how it should be however and no one should be made to feel they have no dignity becasue they are in genuine need of help and benefits.

Despite my moaning, I have found instances, where the DWP have placed a claimant in the wrag group of ESA, then when they have been taken to theri first meeting with the appointed person at the jobcentre,for their work related activity group programme, the interviewer at the jobcentre has said they shouldn't be in the wrag section of ESA but should be in the support group.
Very often, all that jobcentre person does is take it to telephone appointments with them until it is sorted out as to being in the support group.

However,then it still has to go through the lengthy appeals process and if the DWP don't change their mind, then on and on it goes until a good number of times it takes a court to decide who is right.

Trying to be fair a little to jobcentre staff, they are told they have to do this and are literally swamped with people that really should not even be having to go to them at all.
People who are taking time away from them helping someone into work that really needs the help to and wants the help too to do so.

[user104658]

Trying to be fair a little to jobcentre staff, they are told they have to do this and are literally swamped with people that really should not even be having to go to them at all.
People who are taking time away from them helping someone into work that really needs the help to and wants the help too to do so.

You can't really blame Jobcenter staff at all in my opinion - they are handed the "rules" and what can they do but go with it? They know better than anyone else what will happen to them if they lose the job, must be terrifying. They could be back there a week later on the other side of the desk. I also find it's easy to say that they "should at least be nicer about it" but if you have to work in that environment every day... I can see it being easy to lose your "soul" pretty quickly. (Not that I believe in such things literally).

[joeysteele]

You can't really blame Jobcenter staff at all in my opinion - they are handed the "rules" and what can they do but go with it? They know better than anyone else what will happen to them if they lose the job, must be terrifying. They could be back there a week later on the other side of the desk. I also find it's easy to say that they "should at least be nicer about it" but if you have to work in that environment every day... I can see it being easy to lose your "soul" pretty quickly. (Not that I believe in such things literally).

I don't blame them for the job they are 'forced' to do but the way some of them do it and the way some of them talk really down to claimants at times is way out of order from what I have witnessed.

Often too, the talking down to is done rather loudly and it is possible for others to hear what is said too.

[Kizzy]

And now it's flipped to fraudulent claims for disability, again that's not what was intended with the OP from what I can see, the issue being addressed isn't the fair sanctions either... it's the unfair sanctions.
How genuine jobseeker claimants and their children are impacted by impractical, irrational and unjust demands from the job centre.
Skirting around the issue and diverting the discussions isn't helpful for me.

[the truth]

there is also a problem with useless employees at the job centres and the burocratic fiascos misunderstandings and endless delays.....in the end my advice to everyone in reasonable health is go to work. frankly any work is better than none. though I draw the line at selling my lithe body as a gigolo or rent boy

[user104658]

there is also a problem with useless employees at the job centres and the burocratic fiascos misunderstandings and endless delays.....in the end my advice to everyone in reasonable health is go to work. frankly any work is better than none. though I draw the line at selling my lithe body as a gigolo or rent boy

You say it like it's that simple. When I was on JSA I was not fussy in the slightest, I was applying for anything and everything, it still took nearly 5 months. And that's as a young, fit, able bodied, well spoken, well dressed young person, straight-A school grades, a degree and with a decent work history to boot. If I could just have clicked my fingers and "gone to work" then I certainly would have. Even the job I eventually got was, at entry level, part-time and about 50p above minimum wage... in an industry that I actively despise. I'm in a much better financial position now and whilst I'm not "unhappy at work" - it's still an industry that I despise on principle - and I'm constantly on the lookout for alternative employment if it pays the same or better... in five years I can count on my fingers the number of vacancies that have even been worth sniffing at. I don't live in or near a major city... the jobs simply are not available.

[joeysteele]

You say it like it's that simple. When I was on JSA I was not fussy in the slightest, I was applying for anything and everything, it still took nearly 5 months. And that's as a young, fit, able bodied, well spoken, well dressed young person, straight-A school grades, a degree and with a decent work history to boot. If I could just have clicked my fingers and "gone to work" then I certainly would have. Even the job I eventually got was, at entry level, part-time and about 50p above minimum wage... in an industry that I actively despise. I'm in a much better financial position now and whilst I'm not "unhappy at work" - it's still an industry that I despise on principle - and I'm constantly on the lookout for alternative employment if it pays the same or better... in five years I can count on my fingers the number of vacancies that have even been worth sniffing at. I don't live in or near a major city... the jobs simply are not available.

Another strong and insightful post from your experiences Toy Soldier, you are right jobs are not available for all that need and want them.
It must be annoying for people in the position of really wanting and needing work to hear it said they should get out there and get a job.

I have to say, your posts on this have been fascinating to read and are likely some of the best and fairest on the thread,in my view.

[the truth]

You say it like it's that simple. When I was on JSA I was not fussy in the slightest, I was applying for anything and everything, it still took nearly 5 months. And that's as a young, fit, able bodied, well spoken, well dressed young person, straight-A school grades, a degree and with a decent work history to boot. If I could just have clicked my fingers and "gone to work" then I certainly would have. Even the job I eventually got was, at entry level, part-time and about 50p above minimum wage... in an industry that I actively despise. I'm in a much better financial position now and whilst I'm not "unhappy at work" - it's still an industry that I despise on principle - and I'm constantly on the lookout for alternative employment if it pays the same or better... in five years I can count on my fingers the number of vacancies that have even been worth sniffing at. I don't live in or near a major city... the jobs simply are not available.

if have decent health it IS simple, go to work....so its not your dream job? big deal ....earn your way in life, study whilst working, apply for other jobs whilst working, being in work will always impress potential future employers more too....be productive, utilise yourself, make it happen, go to work

[user104658]

if have decent health it IS simple, go to work....so its not your dream job? big deal ....earn your way in life, study whilst working, apply for other jobs whilst working, being in work will always impress potential future employers more too....be productive, utilise yourself, make it happen, go to work
Yes, but did you miss the bit where I said "it took nearly 5 months"? That was to find ANY job. I'm pointing out that I wasn't being unrealistic or looking for my dream job. I *do* go out every day to a job that I dislike, even though I'm now in a position where the pay is " alright ". I took the first job that I was offered and worked up. I was not even slightly fussy, I didn't turn anything down.

It took five months jobseeking to be offered that job.

So no. You do not just decide to "go to work".

[Glenn.]

Yes, but did you miss the bit where I said "it took nearly 5 months"? That was to find ANY job. I'm pointing out that I wasn't being unrealistic or looking for my dream job. I *do* go out every day to a job that I dislike, even though I'm now in a position where the pay is " alright ". I took the first job that I was offered and worked up. I was not even slightly fussy, I didn't turn anything down.

It took five months jobseeking to be offered that job.

So no. You do not just decide to "go to work".

Amen :clap1:

[user104658]

Another strong and insightful post from your experiences Toy Soldier, you are right jobs are not available for all that need and want them.
It must be annoying for people in the position of really wanting and needing work to hear it said they should get out there and get a job.

I have to say, your posts on this have been fascinating to read and are likely some of the best and fairest on the thread,in my view.
Thanks Joey, it's one of those topics where my opinions 6 or 7 years ago would probably have been quite different to what they are. But having been "poor" for a couple of years (even in work) completely changed my perception when it comes to work and the benefits system. It can't possibly be what anyone would choose. Signing on is humiliating, scrabbling together 5p coins for a loaf of bread (and then having to dump them on the counter to pay) is worse, and walking in the rain, getting squashed worms stuck in shoes that have holes in them because you'd rather spend the money you have left after rent and bills on your child... That's pretty much rock bottom. And for the last one I was actually working. It's really only the last three or so years that I've been fine money wise and only the last year that I've been in the position of having "spending money" sat in my wallet.

It sounds like a proper sob story! :joker:... But seriously, I grew up in a middle income family never really thinking about out cash flow, and those few years after University as a young parent changed my entire outlook. For that reason, I wouldn't take them back.

Even if I do occasionally get panics about something "going wrong" and ending up back there...

[the truth]

Yes, but did you miss the bit where I said "it took nearly 5 months"? That was to find ANY job. I'm pointing out that I wasn't being unrealistic or looking for my dream job. I *do* go out every day to a job that I dislike, even though I'm now in a position where the pay is " alright ". I took the first job that I was offered and worked up. I was not even slightly fussy, I didn't turn anything down.

It took five months jobseeking to be offered that job.

So no. You do not just decide to "go to work".

lol open your eyes....that's nonsense and I don't believe a word of it. youre in danger of believing your own nonsense...there are always 100s of job even if it means bending down and getting ones hands dirty

[the truth]

Thanks Joey, it's one of those topics where my opinions 6 or 7 years ago would probably have been quite different to what they are. But having been "poor" for a couple of years (even in work) completely changed my perception when it comes to work and the benefits system. It can't possibly be what anyone would choose. Signing on is humiliating, scrabbling together 5p coins for a loaf of bread (and then having to dump them on the counter to pay) is worse, and walking in the rain, getting squashed worms stuck in shoes that have holes in them because you'd rather spend the money you have left after rent and bills on your child... That's pretty much rock bottom. And for the last one I was actually working. It's really only the last three or so years that I've been fine money wise and only the last year that I've been in the position of having "spending money" sat in my wallet.

It sounds like a proper sob story! :joker:... But seriously, I grew up in a middle income family never really thinking about out cash flow, and those few years after University as a young parent changed my entire outlook. For that reason, I wouldn't take them back.

Even if I do occasionally get panics about something "going wrong" and ending up back there...

and the solution was........drumroll..........going to work

[user104658]

lol open your eyes....that's nonsense and I don't believe a word of it. youre in danger of believing your own nonsense...there are always 100s of job even if it means bending down and getting ones hands dirty
You are simply incorrect. I'm going to assume that you live in, or near, a large city if you believe that to be the case.

Away from those areas it doesn't matter if you're happy to lick up **** with your tongue... There will be plenty of other people competing to lick faster. I applied for a 16 hour shelf stacking job at Morrisons and was informed that there had been 316 other applicants - in a town of under 20,000.

[the truth]

You are simply incorrect. I'm going to assume that you live in, or near, a large city if you believe that to be the case.

Away from those areas it doesn't matter if you're happy to lick up **** with your tongue... There will be plenty of other people competing to lick faster. I applied for a 16 hour shelf stacking job at Morrisons and was informed that there had been 316 other applicants - in a town of under 20,000.

I dont believe you. why didn't you clean something, care for someone, drive for someone, security jobs are everywhere too....even cold calling jobs, café jobs, bar jobs, endless customer services jobs, even selling door to door is something I earned a living from years ago. you clealry didn't look far and wide enough. but youre just going to repeat yourself now in a desperate attempt to convince yourself you couldn't have done any more to find work.

[user104658]

and the solution was........drumroll..........going to work
You're not even reading though, are you. It took 5 months to find any work to go to at all. You don't "believe" that but that's not really my problem. It is the case. I applied absolutely everywhere and attended every interview offered. I worked for some scumbag restaurant owner for free for three days as an "audition" only to find out that he had been "auditioning" a succession of people as free labour for several years. I almost got a job working for a call centre that was, as far as I can tell, basically scamming old people into having wills drawn up for them - but it was shut down. For scamming old people. I would still have done it, though.

[user104658]

I dont believe you. why didn't you clean something, care for someone, drive for someone, security jobs are everywhere too....even cold calling jobs, café jobs, bar jobs, endless customer services jobs, even selling door to door is something I earned a living from years ago. you clealry didn't look far and wide enough. but youre just going to repeat yourself now in a desperate attempt to convince yourself you couldn't have done any more to find work.
Again you're only proving that you must live in or near a major population center. The town I was stuck in at the time had about 5 bars and 3 cafes, none of which needed staff, and "endless" customer service roles? The last time I was back in that **** hole most of the shops had completely shut down. They were really not seeking staff. I'm obviously not saying that finding a job is impossible because I did find one. I'm saying it can take time. Might be weeks, might be months, but it's basically unheard of to go out to "find a job" and be working the very next day. If you think it's not the case, then you either haven't experienced it first hand, or you are lying.

In fact, even the job I did get, for the company I still work for, it was three months from application to starting work. Four months from application to pay in the bank. It took them 3 weeks to offer an interview, another 3 weeks from the interview to get a call offering the job, and 6 weeks from that call until the start date.

Once again - I am not condoning long term benefits for people who have no intention of working. I'm saying that benefits are ESSENTIAL because of how long the process of finding work can be.

[the truth]

Again you're only proving that you must live in or near a major population center. The town I was stuck in at the time had about 5 bars and 3 cafes, none of which needed staff, and "endless" customer service roles? The last time I was back in that **** hole most of the shops had completely shut down. They were really not seeking staff. I'm obviously not saying that finding a job is impossible because I did find one. I'm saying it can take time. Might be weeks, might be months, but it's basically unheard of to go out to "find a job" and be working the very next day. If you think it's not the case, then you either haven't experienced it first hand, or you are lying.

In fact, even the job I did get, for the company I still work for, it was three months from application to starting work. Four months from application to pay in the bank. It took them 3 weeks to offer an interview, another 3 weeks from the interview to get a call offering the job, and 6 weeks from that call until the start date.

Once again - I am not condoning long term benefits for people who have no intention of working. I'm saying that benefits are ESSENTIAL because of how long the process of finding work can be.

highly populated ? I live in mid wales lol theres more sheep than people...ive never been out of work other than when im sick. theres no excuse for ANYONE to be out of work if theyre fit enough to work.

[joeysteele]

highly populated ? I live in mid wales lol theres more sheep than people...ive never been out of work other than when im sick. theres no excuse for ANYONE to be out of work if theyre fit enough to work.

You are then a very lucky individual,if that is all the case for you and where you are then,as I said earlier everyone should maybe try to move there, it sounds like stepping through a looking glass into a near dream world.
It is not somewhere I have found in all the areas I have found people needing help.
So well done to all the authorities and the people where you are.

I have to say and was surprised to hear you say you don't believe him, that the experiences from Toy Soldier are more what I have found to be the case.
From the angle of researching the real situation, by not just believing the grubby press accounts,then getting involved in helping some really desperate people who cannot find work but who would love to work.

As Toy Soldier says, signing on is almost humiliating and in fact,very little help is there for them too.
When we are alright and things going well for us, it is easy to judge and say all people should do this and do that,however that is too generalised and is an unfair direction and judgement,that is just my view.

Also after being out of work for any length of time things can appear a lot worse, confidence is shattered from endless knockbacks at interviews,that is before you get the further pressures from the jobcentres and threats of sanctions too.

I'd rather, any day, go down the non judgemental route and show some understanding and compassion.
How things are where you live seem ideal,almost an oasis set in the nightmare of the rest of the UK.
It is a pity the politicians don't know of the massive success and lack of problems there,since even they have no clue how to deal fairly with the situation of the jobless.
As Toy Soldier was pointing out very strongly from his own personal experiences too.

[DemolitionRed]

if they don't like it why don't they got off their subsidised backsides, drop the self pity and feeling sorry for yourselves and get a job. I did so did 35 million other job. there are ALWAYS jobs available. unless a person is disabled or sick they should work, end of

Our neighbor has just lost his job after the company folded. He's been with that company for over 20 years and now finds himself signing on. He was telling us yesterday that he's been granted (for a couple) just over £400 a month. Because he's had a reasonably well paid long term job he's been able to afford a mortgage and has all the usually affordable debt that most working British households have. He's very specialized in his field of work which means getting work with a similar company is really his only option.

So okay, lets give him a job and if he refuses that job lets sanction his benefits even though the job we offer him as a road sweeper isn't going to give him anything more than a minimum wage, which in turn will ensure he loses his house and will have to claim personal bankruptcy because his meager salary will put him on the poverty line.

Losing a job can be life destroying and that's why we have so many male suicides in this country. Finding the right job that won't throw you into deep financial difficulty could take a little time. To suggest such people are lazy ****ers is ridiculous and cruel. Its not only the people who have been missed out on education or continually scrounged off the system that find themselves unemployed and having to claim.

[Kizzy]

Wouldn't he lose his house on benefits anyway? Taking anything while he looks for something in his field might be the only way :(

[user104658]

A very good point there DemolitionRed, The Truth is constantly referring to the high rates of suicide amoung males and how awful it is. Which it is. But then it's attitudes like his - essentially calling people lazy, scrounging wastes of space if they don't find themselves just walking out of their house and into a job at the drop of a hat - that are a massive contributing factor in the feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness that result in high suicide rates.

Congratulations on being part of the problem, Truth.

[Glenn.]

Wouldn't he lose his house on benefits anyway? Taking anything while he looks for something in his field might be the only way :(

When my brother came out of work for a short time, they paid his mortgage. Or some of it, idk.

[AnnieK]

Wouldn't he lose his house on benefits anyway? Taking anything while he looks for something in his field might be the only way :(

I would imagine (only surmising) that he will have mortgage insurance protection (and possibly other credit insurance) and therefore whilst out of work his mortgage (and other) payments will be covered. If he finds gainful employment the insurance will stop and his payments will be reinstated and if he is only earning minimum wage its will not cover his outgoings.

[Kizzy]

My neighbour had the interest on the morgage paid is all I think, she kept the house but it was touch and go, she got rid of every other outgoing except the house.

[Tom4784]

I dont believe you. why didn't you clean something, care for someone, drive for someone, security jobs are everywhere too....even cold calling jobs, café jobs, bar jobs, endless customer services jobs, even selling door to door is something I earned a living from years ago. you clealry didn't look far and wide enough. but youre just going to repeat yourself now in a desperate attempt to convince yourself you couldn't have done any more to find work.

The ignorance is suffocating.

Most Care jobs require qualifications and/or experience, if you've never done Care before then it isn't an easy field to get into. Cleaning is a busy sector, it's like telling people to get into retail, it's hard because it's a go to sector for a lot of unskilled workers. Most Securty jobs require a Security qualification and those cards that aren't CSCS cards but are similar. 99% of cold calling jobs are scams that are purely commission based and offer little to no actual money. Bar and Cafe work are highly in demand and competitive and Door to Door sales have the same issues as cold calling jobs.

You really have no clue what you are on about. You've just been completely whipped by the Daily Mail into swallowing whatever bull**** headline they spit out.

[Glenn.]

I can confirm to even get a basic security guard license is about £275 for the actual license. The training needed to even get the license is £180.

For someone out of work and barely making ends meat its not really something hat can be done so easily.

[Kizzy]

The ignorance is suffocating.

Most Care jobs require qualifications and/or experience, if you've never done Care before then it isn't an easy field to get into. Cleaning is a busy sector, it's like telling people to get into retail, it's hard because it's a go to sector for a lot of unskilled workers. Most Securty jobs require a Security qualification and those cards that aren't CSCS cards but are similar. 99% of cold calling jobs are scams that are purely commission based and offer little to no actual money. Bar and Cafe work are highly in demand and competitive and Door to Door sales have the same issues as cold calling jobs.

You really have no clue what you are on about. You've just been completely whipped by the Daily Mail into swallowing whatever bull**** headline they spit out.

SIA badges that are £100 and the security training beforehand costs loads too, I was going to put this earlier but it would've been a waste of energy.

[Glenn.]

When I got my security license it was £245 not £100. That was for a basic static license.

[JoshBB]

I can confirm to even get a basic security guard license is about £275 for the actual license. The training needed to even get the license is £180.

For someone out of work and barely making ends meat its not really something hat can be done so easily.

Exactly. I hate when people try to make judgements and form opinions on things when they don't consider the people actually affected by doing so.

[Kizzy]

When I got my security license it was £245 not £100. That was for a basic static license.

Ah yes the first badge is a lot more yes, after that their still £100 to renew though :/

[Glenn.]

Ah yes the first badge is a lot more yes, after that their still £100 to renew though :/

I've just looked and for a renewal its £220. It's the same as the cost of a new license.

[Kizzy]

I've just looked and for a renewal its £220. It's the same as the cost of a new license.

'If this is your first license then the fee is set at £220. However if you already have an SIA license with at least 6 months remaining on your current badge then your subsequents licenses will cost £110.00. With the only exemption being Vehicle Immobilisation license which is exempt from this discount.'

[Glenn.]

'If this is your first license then the fee is set at £220. However if you already have an SIA license with at least 6 months remaining on your current badge then your subsequents licenses will cost £110.00. With the only exemption being Vehicle Immobilisation license which is exempt from this discount.'


'A licence renewal costs the same as a new application (£220). No additional training or qualification is required for a licence renewal unless you are renewing a door supervisor licence and you have not attained one of the current licence-linked qualifications (the ones introduced in Summer 2010).'

From the official site

http://www.sia.homeoffice.gov.uk/Pages/licensing-renewals.aspx

[Kizzy]

Right...thanks for that, glad you cleared that up.

Fact remains it's not a job you can just mooch on into.

[Glenn.]

Precisely

Edit: kizzy we just agreed on something :omgno:

[the truth]

Our neighbor has just lost his job after the company folded. He's been with that company for over 20 years and now finds himself signing on. He was telling us yesterday that he's been granted (for a couple) just over £400 a month. Because he's had a reasonably well paid long term job he's been able to afford a mortgage and has all the usually affordable debt that most working British households have. He's very specialized in his field of work which means getting work with a similar company is really his only option.

So okay, lets give him a job and if he refuses that job lets sanction his benefits even though the job we offer him as a road sweeper isn't going to give him anything more than a minimum wage, which in turn will ensure he loses his house and will have to claim personal bankruptcy because his meager salary will put him on the poverty line.

Losing a job can be life destroying and that's why we have so many male suicides in this country. Finding the right job that won't throw you into deep financial difficulty could take a little time. To suggest such people are lazy ****ers is ridiculous and cruel. Its not only the people who have been missed out on education or continually scrounged off the system that find themselves unemployed and having to claim.

he has my sympathy. Maggie thatcher destroyed 1.5 million industrial jobs forever. she was a sadist. its much harder for a guy like this , a specialist in his field suddenly out of work like the miners....male suicides are a massive issue I always bring up. theyyre worse because women get 95% of the funding for support and charities as well as enormous more being spent on their welfare and health. men should be more priotised and their mental health should see more money spent on it...men kill themselves at 4 times the rate fo women and in post industrial wales male suicides are up 23% and this didn't even make the 10 oclock news , theyre busy talking about lineswomen getting heckled by idiots. typical feminazi liberal biased bbc bulls*it.....heckling is a bigger news than mass suicides? insane and profoundly sexist

now my advice to a man like that is that if he can find the spirit in himself to climb off the canvas to find work, albeit lesser work and lesser paid, anything is better than benefits.....whilst hes in work he will be meeting people and socializing more....he may refind a zest for life..who knows whilst in work he may find a person or an opportunity better suited to his needs...this surely wont happen at home with the curtains drawn on benefits.....men in this country are far more discriminated against than women, far far far more. there is less support, theres far more economic pressure on men too....men MUST work. if they don't they risk losing everything and having their wives throw them out and losing their home their kids wife and career all at the same time. this is exactly why male suicised are at record highs across the entire western society.....oh and they say men should talk about it...I AM talking about it and I get shouted down as being sexist for doing so. proving men cant win, no wonder so many kill themselves

[the truth]

I can confirm to even get a basic security guard license is about £275 for the actual license. The training needed to even get the license is £180.

For someone out of work and barely making ends meat its not really something hat can be done so easily.

funding can be provided at the job centres....its also worth noting these many people on benefits and hobbling a but should cutback on booze and cigarettes too to save for this

[DemolitionRed]

I would imagine (only surmising) that he will have mortgage insurance protection (and possibly other credit insurance) and therefore whilst out of work his mortgage (and other) payments will be covered. If he finds gainful employment the insurance will stop and his payments will be reinstated and if he is only earning minimum wage its will not cover his outgoings.

Spot on.

Benefits used to cover interest on a mortgage but apparently haven't done so now for a number of years.

[Glenn.]

funding can be provided at the job centres....its also worth noting these many people on benefits and hobbling a but should cutback on booze and cigarettes too to save for this

Another ignorant generalisation

[the truth]

Another ignorant generalisation

no your being ignorant as always....Many people on benefits waste their benefits and the kids benefits on booze and cigarettes, fact. You choose to lie and ignore it in your liberal wonderland that's your choice to be ignorant to the truth

[Tom4784]

funding can be provided at the job centres....its also worth noting these many people on benefits and hobbling a but should cutback on booze and cigarettes too to save for this

Not really, they MAY refer you to a training provider to get your Maths and English up to scratch but any specialised courses are typically only paid for if you can prove you'll have a job ready by the end of it which is mostly useless since few companies will wait for you to get qualified.

The next thing you said was typical ignorant rubbish.

[the truth]

Not really, they MAY refer you to a training provider to get your Maths and English up to scratch but any specialised courses are typically only paid for if you can prove you'll have a job ready by the end of it which is mostly useless since few companies will wait for you to get qualified.

The next thing you said was typical ignorant rubbish.

youre LYING again the job centre DO pay for much of this training. youre 100% wrong and you are the ignorant one. having you considered working?

[Glenn.]

no your being ignorant as always....Many people on benefits waste their benefits and the kids benefits on booze and cigarettes, fact. You choose to lie and ignore it in your liberal wonderland that's your choice to be ignorant to the truth

Where is this fact? Can you provide a link that backs your claim up?

It's not fact at all.

[Tom4784]

youre LYING again the job centre DO pay for much of this training. youre 100% wrong and you are the ignorant one. having you considered working?

No, they don't. English and Maths is free to them so they'll refer you to that no problem but they don't make specialist training readily available unless you've been offered a job already and even then you have to fight tooth and nail for it.

Yeah I do work, I'd say the same to you but I guess being the mayor of Imaginationland is a full time role.

[joeysteele]

no your being ignorant as always....Many people on benefits waste their benefits and the kids benefits on booze and cigarettes, fact. You choose to lie and ignore it in your liberal wonderland that's your choice to be ignorant to the truth

I think you are wrong and many is not all anyway, as your original generalisation inferred.

There are no facts to print what claimants spend their money on so you cannot substantiate that comment really.

However, were you even right in any way and I don't think you are as to that.
Then you should be pleased they do,since they would be paying heavier taxes than most as to duty so a great proportion of their benefits will be returning to the treasury.

Thankfully I never believe the Sun's or Daily Mail's over exaggerrated headlines on these issues, and it isn't what I have found either to be the case with the people I have helped as to ensuring they are getting the right and full benefits.

[DemolitionRed]

now my advice to a man like that is that if he can find the spirit in himself to climb off the canvas to find work, albeit lesser work and lesser paid, anything is better than benefits.....whilst hes in work he will be meeting people and socializing more....he may refind a zest for life..who knows whilst in work he may find a person or an opportunity better suited to his needs...this surely wont happen at home with the curtains drawn on benefits.....men in this country are far more discriminated against than women, far far far more. there is less support, theres far more economic pressure on men too....men MUST work. if they don't they risk losing everything and having their wives throw them out and losing their home their kids wife and career all at the same time. this is exactly why male suicised are at record highs across the entire western society.....oh and they say men should talk about it...I AM talking about it and I get shouted down as being sexist for doing so. proving men cant win, no wonder so many kill themselves

The problem is, low paid work, for more than a month or two would ensure a repossession order on the mortgage he can no longer afford. Its a case of being damned if you do and damned if you don't.

You can spend huge amounts of time refining CV's for job applications and going for interviews. My husband used to be a stock broker and that's a real rag to riches kind of job but its a job that is so insecure because of dirty dealings that go on within the industry that you never know if your going to have work the following week. I can think of six times when he was looking for employment but fortunately he'd put enough by to see him through those rough times. The diligence he had put into his employment was equally used to find new employment but he needed lots of time and a huge amount of effort to get their. If he had claimed benefits would they of insisted on some mundane course or made him go for pointless interviews as a road sweeper? If so, then they would of been restraining his potential and delaying his attempts to find the sort of work he needed.

As far as men being more vulnerable than women, there are plenty of exceptions but I do tend to agree with you, especially regarding family units where the woman is a stay at home mum or only works part time. The responsibility on the man to provide the bread and butter can be huge and the guilt he must go through when he loses his job has to be devastating. Yes, in general, married men with children are more vulnerable and must suffer from a huge fear of loss when they find themselves on the unemployment ladder.

[Glenn.]

No, they don't. English and Maths is free to them so they'll refer you to that no problem but they don't make specialist training readily available unless you've been offered a job already and even then you have to fight tooth and nail for it.

Yeah I do work, I'd say the same to you but I guess being the mayor of Imaginationland is a full time role.

You're right. If you have a job offer they do pay for the relevant training to take that job. But rarely.

[the truth]

No, they don't. English and Maths is free to them so they'll refer you to that no problem but they don't make specialist training readily available unless you've been offered a job already and even then you have to fight tooth and nail for it.

Yeah I do work, I'd say the same to you but I guess being the mayor of Imaginationland is a full time role.

yes they do youre lying again. they fund all sorts of things free forklift driving minibus licenses bus license taxi licenses the list goes on and on.

[the truth]

The problem is, low paid work, for more than a month or two would ensure a repossession order on the mortgage he can no longer afford. Its a case of being damned if you do and damned if you don't.

You can spend huge amounts of time refining CV's for job applications and going for interviews. My husband used to be a stock broker and that's a real rag to riches kind of job but its a job that is so insecure because of dirty dealings that go on within the industry that you never know if your going to have work the following week. I can think of six times when he was looking for employment but fortunately he'd put enough by to see him through those rough times. The diligence he had put into his employment was equally used to find new employment but he needed lots of time and a huge amount of effort to get their. If he had claimed benefits would they of insisted on some mundane course or made him go for pointless interviews as a road sweeper? If so, then they would of been restraining his potential and delaying his attempts to find the sort of work he needed.

As far as men being more vulnerable than women, there are plenty of exceptions but I do tend to agree with you, especially regarding family units where the woman is a stay at home mum or only works part time. The responsibility on the man to provide the bread and butter can be huge and the guilt he must go through when he loses his job has to be devastating. Yes, in general, married men with children are more vulnerable and must suffer from a huge fear of loss when they find themselves on the unemployment ladder.

good post, glad weve found some middle ground

[the truth]

You're right. If you have a job offer they do pay for the relevant training to take that job. But rarely.

its t rarely at all, its more the case that not

[the truth]

I think you are wrong and many is not all anyway, as your original generalisation inferred.

There are no facts to print what claimants spend their money on so you cannot substantiate that comment really.

However, were you even right in any way and I don't think you are as to that.
Then you should be pleased they do,since they would be paying heavier taxes than most as to duty so a great proportion of their benefits will be returning to the treasury.

Thankfully I never believe the Sun's or Daily Mail's over exaggerrated headlines on these issues, and it isn't what I have found either to be the case with the people I have helped as to ensuring they are getting the right and full benefits.

you read the daily mail as much as you like, I get ALL my knowledge from real life experience ive employed 100s of people I know what im talking about from extensive first hand experience, you clearly do not

[Josy]

The jobcentre very rarely provide the training that people need to get employment that's including security badges, forklift licenses and so on even if you need a disclosure certificate you have to arrange and pay for it by yourself.

And as others have said you have to fight very hard for them to finally put you through what you need even if you've had a job offer.

[the truth]

The jobcentre very rarely provide the training that people need to get employment that's including security badges, forklift licenses and so on even if you need a disclosure certificate you have to arrange and pay for it by yourself.

And as others have said you have to fight very hard for them to finally put you through what you need even if you've had a job offer.

youre 100% wrong. the job centre get in touch with the training centres and they supply the training for free, they also pay for licenses

[Tom4784]

yes they do youre lying again. they fund all sorts of things free forklift driving minibus licenses bus license taxi licenses the list goes on and on.

Maybe the Job Centres do that in Imaginationland but in the real world they won't lift a finger unless you fit very specific criteria and even then chances are they won't fund it.

[Glenn.]

I think instead of calling people liars when they are conveying facts to you, the truth, you should go away and do some proper research.

[Josy]

youre 100% wrong. the job centre get in touch with the training centres and they supply the training for free, they also pay for licenses

No I'm not 100% wrong, do some research into it before claiming that you know more than others do.

[the truth]

Maybe the Job Centres do that in Imaginationland but in the real world they won't lift a finger unless you fit very specific criteria and even then chances are they won't fund it.

stop fudging it and stop feeding lies to job seekers , the job centre do fund it youre 100% wrong as are your kronies

[the truth]

No I'm not 100% wrong, do some research into it before claiming that you know more than others do.

I have and youre still 100% wrong. you haven't got a clue what youre talking about.

[Tom4784]

There's no point in talking to him. He's like a Little Britain Sketch, he's repetitive and offers diminishing returns.

[the truth]

There's no point in talking to him. He's like a Little Britain Sketch, he's repetitive and offers diminishing returns.

go get help off your kronies..youre 100% wrong I am 100% right..stop spreading lies and false propaganda about the help that's available to the jobless...youre giving them misinformation and that's frankly disgusting and proves how sincere you are and that clearly you don't really care about the jobless. The job centre WILL fund these licenses to get them back to work, you should try it for yourself

[Josy]

stop fudging it and stop feeding lies to job seekers , the job centre do fund it youre 100% wrong as are your kronies

You are extremely rude and seem to be incapable of taking part in a discussion like an adult.

I really didn't want to post personal info like this but **** it.

One of my sister's currently works for the DWP, the jobcentre WILL NOT FUND the biggest majority of training courses that jobseekers need to take, even IF they have been given an offer of employment at the end of the training, the jobcentre will even go as far as to STOP CLAIMANTS BENEFITS, if they take part in any training courses that are over 15 and 3 quarter hours per week.

Jobseeker Advisors have something called the Advisor Discretionary Fund which they need to use for paying out travel expenses and clothing expenses for jobseekers to attend and travel to interviews etc, it's not a big fund and they even have to apply for the money from that fund for the things I stated above.

The Jobcentre will not even pay for any CRB checks or similar any more.

What the jobcentres here can do (In Scotland I don't know if they have this elsewhere) is sign you up for an ILA account which provid people on a low income with up to £200 to take a training course BUT the course has to be on the list that the jobcentre provides, this fund is also how they pay for things like sending jobseekers to a course to write up a CV.

[joeysteele]

you read the daily mail as much as you like, I get ALL my knowledge from real life experience ive employed 100s of people I know what im talking about from extensive first hand experience, you clearly do not

I would never ever read the Daily Mail,it is bad enough catching glances at its over exaggerrated front pages,never mind ever bothering to read inside it.

You may have employed 100s of people, well I have seen 100s of people too from my research and experience at Uni and also over the last 18 months looking out for those most vulnerable after getting involved through things arising at the law firm I joined after Uni.

You really are very insulting at times, you have fiorst hand experience but you never come across the things others are saying on here as to the unemployed.
Your experience is in employment it seems, you paint a picture of where you live and what goes on there making it sound like it is from another planet rather than in the UK.
Where a great number of posters on this thread alone, find situations far removed from your generalisations of those out of work in their areas and across the UK too as a whole.

I always talk from real life experiences and I have sat there in court with people supporting them having to fight to get benefits restored,benefits that should never have been removed or reduced in the first place.
In your world that doesn't happen it seems.

Furthermore, I have gone out my way supporting 'vulnerable' people, sick,disabled or healthy in attending jobcentres, where they get spoken to as if they are the lowest of the low at times.

For every success story you present as the norm, there are many others involved everyday picking up the pieces of others lives, who cannot get a break, cannot get the help this govt; says is on offer but generally is more likely found not to be.

I mentioned the Daily Mail because very sadly, (and I do try at times to see your point of view), a great deal of what you say in your posts could have come direct from their front pages or the Sun's as to those out of work or in a vulnerable state.

That may be your harder line view personally, however while I and others on here would concede some people work the system, some people even fraudulently claim benefits too and also some may genuinely never want to work.
They are the minority in all likelihood, not just about everyone as you would say they are.

Then you choose to resort to almost telling people they are lying and insult their intelligence as in that only your view can possibly be the correct one.
Don't tell me I do not present real life experience situations from where I have spent endless hours dealing with and supporting those who cannot get help, who have to then hear people, as you are doing, judge,condemn and generalise as to them that they are all probably wastes of space.

Maybe other than just looking at the successful and fortunate side of the situation of those unemployed finding work that you claim to know so much about, you could think about getting out there and seeing the devastation there is to others not so fortunate as the examples you throw out.
You may even find, as most do who actually get out there and do that, that the less fortunate are in fact the vast majority and that the fortunate ones you keep mentioning are in fact the minority.

[Vicky.]

youre LYING again the job centre DO pay for much of this training. youre 100% wrong and you are the ignorant one. having you considered working?

They paid for my partners SIA training and badge, but only after he got a letter from a company saying they would employ him once he had it. Unfortunately this company then stuck him on a 0 hour contract which is not much good when trying to run a house..0 hour contracts are brilliant for those still living with mummy and daddy, or people working just for a top up to their partners wage, but not to people in the real world. Unfortunately most security jobs require experience along with a sia license...so hes still there getting ridiculously erratic hours at the original company, whilst we have to claim top up benefits some weeks and not others...which in itself is a nightmare given that the dwp take forever to sort payments out. Its mental. Luckily we have a council house at the moment so having to wait a month for a working tax credit/housing benefit payment doesn't matter so much as its quite hard for councils to kick you out for small arrears and they do tend to understand that the dwp take ages to do things. Unfortunately (but fortunately at the same time..depending on how you look at it) we are going to have to move to private accommodation as he needs to be closer for work as they claim they are offering more hours soon. Fulltime infact..and the wage is good. If they keep up their promise, alls good as we wont need any top up benefits. But if they dont..and we are having to get benefits some weeks due to no work at all or 4 hours per week...its going to be a MASSIVE problem with a private landlord. I'm actually quite scared about it all :umm2:

Went off on one a bit there but yeah the jobcentre do pay for stuff like that, but its rare to find a company to agree to take you on before you are qualified really.

Also, its really not as easy as you think to get a job. Unless you are willing to do commission only work...which is a nightmare tbh, I did that when I left school D: Was ok for me at the time as I was still at home, but it would be no good now. Honestly your wage varies from 0 to a few hundred, to thousands a month. Its utterly bonkers and would be impossible to budget with...plus most of the jobs are scamming other people. Whilst its good that the jobs are there, its really for the benefit of most (especially older people who we were advised to push harder to sell timeshares to) that they disappear.

[Kizzy]

'Duncan Smith announces pilot scheme that could reduce number of benefit claimants being sanctioned

Iain Duncan Smith, the work and pensions secretary, has just told MPs that the government will start piloting a system to give people who face being sanctioned (losing benefits temporarily, because they have failed to comply with a condition) 14 days in which to provide information that will excuse their conduct and stop them having to lose money.'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/mar/14/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-criticised-after-accusing-obama-of-hypocrisy-over-brexit-politics-live

[Tom4784]

'Duncan Smith announces pilot scheme that could reduce number of benefit claimants being sanctioned

Iain Duncan Smith, the work and pensions secretary, has just told MPs that the government will start piloting a system to give people who face being sanctioned (losing benefits temporarily, because they have failed to comply with a condition) 14 days in which to provide information that will excuse their conduct and stop them having to lose money.'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/mar/14/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-criticised-after-accusing-obama-of-hypocrisy-over-brexit-politics-live

That's good news, I've known a lot of people that could have benefitted with this.

[Kizzy]

It was neatly slotted in there in among the 'did Gove make stories up about the queen' chatter :)

[user104658]

'Duncan Smith announces pilot scheme that could reduce number of benefit claimants being sanctioned

Iain Duncan Smith, the work and pensions secretary, has just told MPs that the government will start piloting a system to give people who face being sanctioned (losing benefits temporarily, because they have failed to comply with a condition) 14 days in which to provide information that will excuse their conduct and stop them having to lose money.'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/mar/14/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-criticised-after-accusing-obama-of-hypocrisy-over-brexit-politics-live
It's about time they introduced something like that... The number of sanctions reversed on appeal (I.e. As soon as someone actually properly looks at the circumstances with proof!) is absolutely huge. It makes much more sense to give people the opportunity to provide that information BEFORE the sanctions occur.

All too often people are sanctioned, have it reversed and fully back dated a few months later, but by that time they've already gotten into a total mess with unpaid bills / bank charges / payday loans etc.

[Kizzy]

The Commons could be forced into an emergency debate on disability benefit cuts after almost 100,000 people signed a petition condemning moves which will result in claimants losing £1,500 a year.

Conservative MPs are facing a backlash in their constituencies over plans to reduce payments under the employment and support allowance (ESA) to disabled people judged fit for “work-related activity”. The measure, which will save £1.4bn over four years and which has been condemned by charities, will mean weekly payments for new claimants being cut from £102.15 to £73.10 in April 2017.

A petition calling for a reversal of the cuts has been signed by 96,000. When it attracts 100,000 signatures, the issue has to be considered for a Commons debate.

The petition claims the reductions will “cripple those in receipt of these benefits, leaving many in poverty”. It claims: “Lives are at risk.”

Rossanna Trudgian, head of campaigns at Mencap, said: “The Government is clearly at odds with the public when it comes to cutting ESA. They have been told time and time again by experts and disabled people that the cut will push them further away from the job market.”


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/disability-benefit-cuts-commons-could-be-forced-into-emergency-debate-after-100000-people-sign-a6933266.html

[user104658]

Forced into an emergency debate :joker:

Tories: "OK so we have to have a debate about this disability thing. Should we still do it?"

Other tories: "Obvz."

Everyone else: "NO!"

Tories: "Yeah OK so we're going to do it anyway. Debate over :hee:"

[Vicky.]

Its never been about sorting the scroungers out, its been about punishing the poor for being poor and finding a headline grabber to keep people from talking about the real problems in this country. Its a ****ing disgrace. I remember posting on here once about a friend (not sure if I posted on here or DS) who was sanctioned for taking her kid to hospital and missing a jobcentre appointment, even though she rang them as soon as was possible to let them know what had happened.

Sanction targets are a disgrace. How can you set a target when the sanction is supposed to only apply to people who are taking the piss?

Heh, heres a new sanction story. One of our best friends was sanctioned around xmas time for not seeking work. Fair enough some will shout. But...he wasn't looking for work because he had a huge fire and lost everything, literally everything.


When the DWP sanctioned my benefit for not actively seeking work after I lost all my computer equipment and my usb stick with all my cvs on in the house fire and all library's and the job centre was closed as it was Christmas holidays I appealed the decision and had the tribunal today and I won hands down go **** ya selfs DWP I hope it brings tears to ur eyes wen ur printing that giro bunch of wank splats.

His status about it^

Yes he comes across bitter and angry...can't blame him :joker:

He is employed again now and only just has his appeal tribunal. Which he won, obviously.

But seriously, this is ridiculous that these kinds of sanctions happen in the first place. I wonder how much the sanction 'targets' are rising each year. Still don't understand how you can have a target for something like this :S

[Kizzy]

Stories like that just make me so happy :)

[Vicky.]

'Duncan Smith announces pilot scheme that could reduce number of benefit claimants being sanctioned

Iain Duncan Smith, the work and pensions secretary, has just told MPs that the government will start piloting a system to give people who face being sanctioned (losing benefits temporarily, because they have failed to comply with a condition) 14 days in which to provide information that will excuse their conduct and stop them having to lose money.'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/mar/14/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-criticised-after-accusing-obama-of-hypocrisy-over-brexit-politics-live

Ahh just realized this was what bumped this thread as I have been reading through it since posting

Finally that twat does something right.

Should help a lot of people...mind in some sanction cases all thats needed is a bit of common sense. Even having another person look at a proposed sanction (not rubber stamping like what usually happens, actually look) would overturn a bunch of them

[joeysteele]

Heh, heres a new sanction story. One of our best friends was sanctioned around xmas time for not seeking work. Fair enough some will shout. But...he wasn't looking for work because he had a huge fire and lost everything, literally everything.




His status about it^

Yes he comes across bitter and angry...can't blame him :joker:

He is employed again now and only just has his appeal tribunal. Which he won, obviously.

But seriously, this is ridiculous that these kinds of sanctions happen in the first place. I wonder how much the sanction 'targets' are rising each year. Still don't understand how you can have a target for something like this :S

Good one in the end but obscene and wrong at the time the sanctioning took place.
You are right, there should be no setting of targets as to sanctions.

[Kizzy]

Chris Ship ✔ ‎@chrisshipitv
Democracy in action? We are being told we are not allowed to film the #PIPcuts protest which is currently going on in Central Lobby


BBC told to stop filming disability protest in the Commons

Broadcasters are normally allowed to film in parliament’s central lobby but the BBC’s Norman Smith was told to stop when the disability campaigners started their protests because the Commons authorities do not allow events like this to be filmed.

(One of the reasons for this it is felt that, if protests like this do get filmed, that only encourages campaigners to stage stunts of this kind.)

No, ministers trying to legislate to effectively further marginalise people encourages campaigners :/

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/mar/23/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-pmqs-treasury-committee-about-eu-referendum-politics-live

[smudgie]

Chris Ship ✔ ‎@chrisshipitv
Democracy in action? We are being told we are not allowed to film the #PIPcuts protest which is currently going on in Central Lobby


BBC told to stop filming disability protest in the Commons

Broadcasters are normally allowed to film in parliament’s central lobby but the BBC’s Norman Smith was told to stop when the disability campaigners started their protests because the Commons authorities do not allow events like this to be filmed.

(One of the reasons for this it is felt that, if protests like this do get filmed, that only encourages campaigners to stage stunts of this kind.)





No, ministers trying to legislate to effectively further marginalise people encourages campaigners :/

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/mar/23/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-pmqs-treasury-committee-about-eu-referendum-politics-live

So, they are demonstrating àgainst something that has already been thrown out.:shrug:
The PIP cuts are dead in the water"..methinks a rethink is on the cards.:joker:

[Livia]

Protests held inside the Commons are never allowed to be filmed. I don't see why this one should simply because the protesters are disabled.

[waterhog]

Good. Far too many people live off of the government when they could easily get a job and work for themselves. Makes a real mockery of the people who do genuinely need help.

if you are going by statistics - the people unemployed out of the population is minute.


but I agree - keep bashing the ones that don't work the few you can find that give the ones looking a bad name.

ps close your eyes at tax avoidance and all the rich hiding there money will is topple ling the amount you would save going after the unemployed.

[user104658]

Protests held inside the Commons are never allowed to be filmed. I don't see why this one should simply because the protesters are disabled.

I agree that they shouldn't get preferential treatment on the grounds of being disabled, but in my opinion, it's nonsensical and undemocratic that ANY protest "isn't allowed" to be filmed. No matter which way I look at it, it's selective reporting and misleading to "ignore" such events that are very much in the public interest. It's allowing people, in a supposed democracy, to cast their votes with only access to what "they" want us to see. To me, that's manipulation.

All that said, though, I too am slightly confused as to why they're protesting against the PIP cuts that it seems have already been scrapped. I can only think that this was planned beforehand, and they've decided to just go ahead with it anyway? :shrug: