Israel has said he will take on Iran alone

[arista]

The Israel PM
yesterday said In the USA Congress
he will take on Iran on his own.


Thats Very Noble of you
but make sure you know
when You Fire a Nuke
at Iran
you know what the feck you are doing fella.

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/3/3/374493/default/v1/rtr4rwhx-1-762x428.jpg

http://news.sky.com/story/1437832/netanyahu-iran-nuclear-plan-threatens-world

Note: Its good to have a Bunker

[Nedusa]

Yeah..... That ain't gonna happen anytime soon

[arista]

Yeah..... That ain't gonna happen anytime soon


I am glad you are out there checking on Each Nation.

[Nedusa]

They would need the help of the US to do this and the US is trying to make political progress with Iran not help Israel bomb them back to the Stone Age .

[arista]

They would need the help of the US to do this and the US is trying to make political progress with Iran not help Israel bomb them back to the Stone Age .


I watched his speech Live
he knows that out going President
is not on his side,


He said because of that he will take on Iran
Alone,

He has his own Nuke Missiles
America has No control over him firing one

[arista]

Nedusa
in both WW1 and WW2
things happened Fast at the start.

The fact he has said he will Nuke them
tells me he will get Nuked

Its very Complex out there

[Nedusa]

First of all nobody's nuking anybody.

Israel have not got any real reason to attack Iran, Pre-emptive strikes on a Country that may attack you in the future is no excuse. you are the attacker pure and simple.

Israel does not have the Military capability to successfully fight a war against Iran and would need America's help.

After humiliating President Obama by going straight to Congress, Netanyahu has made a strategic blunder. Embarrassing the office of the President of the United States is not a wise move and will have serious Political ramifications.

Many Democratic Congressmen and women boycotted the speech and this action has divided Politicians across party lines.

President Obama is justifiably furious and will push for talks with Iran regardless of this ill advised stunt.

Iran will be emboldened and so negotiating with them will be even more difficult.

This pompous fool has done nothing to help anyone, he has not helped the Israeli public with this action as the strategic relationship with the US is fracturing (irrespective of what he spouts).

So all in all an ill judged, stupid Political stunt that has backfired badly on him and will have far reaching Geopolitical consequences.

[user104658]

If other countries can REALLY REALLY REALLY keep out of it (would never happen), then I say... yeah why not. Could be good for a giggle. Give them both a few nukes. Might make the superpowers less likely to ever escalate to nuclear war if Israel and Iran turn into a couple of radioactive craters...

[Northern Monkey]

Israel have an advanced military with excellent US trained pilots but i think they are either over confident or just talking big because defeating Iran would not be as easy as he's making out.It would be a very long and bloody conflict.

[Nedusa]

If other countries can REALLY REALLY REALLY keep out of it (would never happen), then I say... yeah why not. Could be good for a giggle. Give them both a few nukes. Might make the superpowers less likely to ever escalate to nuclear war if Israel and Iran turn into a couple of radioactive craters...

:omgno::omgno::omgno:

[Northern Monkey]

If other countries can REALLY REALLY REALLY keep out of it (would never happen), then I say... yeah why not. Could be good for a giggle. Give them both a few nukes. Might make the superpowers less likely to ever escalate to nuclear war if Israel and Iran turn into a couple of radioactive craters...:joker:

[user104658]

:omgno::omgno::omgno:

Well is no one else sick of all the posturing and war-talk?? It's like at school,

"Jimmy's going to fight Bob! He is! After school at the park! Really! I bet Bob could kick Jimmy's arse! Nah, maybe Jimmy will win, Jimmy does karate!!! After school! At the park, guys! At the park! A fight! Srsly really!"

Then everyone troops to the park after school and there is never a fight. Or there's a bit of pushing and shoving and everyone goes home. And then the next day it's all talk again, Jimmy threatening to beat up Bob, Bob saying he'll get his "mental" big brother involved... and again... nothing.

If Jimmy and Bob would just get down to business and knock seven shades of **** out of each other, then maybe everyone would stop talking about it...

[Nedusa]

Well is no one else sick of all the posturing and war-talk?? It's like at school,

"Jimmy's going to fight Bob! He is! After school at the park! Really! I bet Bob could kick Jimmy's arse! Nah, maybe Jimmy will win, Jimmy does karate!!! After school! At the park, guys! At the park! A fight! Srsly really!"

Then everyone troops to the park after school and there is never a fight. Or there's a bit of pushing and shoving and everyone goes home. And then the next day it's all talk again, Jimmy threatening to beat up Bob, Bob saying he'll get his "mental" big brother involved... and again... nothing.

If Jimmy and Bob would just get down to business and knock seven shades of **** out of each other, then maybe everyone would stop talking about it...

Unfortunately this is not the playground, this is real life, with real people and innocent on both sides would perish if War actually started.

I would always prefer they just "talked" a good fight than actually engaging in one.

Actually a lot of this rhetoric is for domestic Political consumption back home, I cannot believe Israel really thinks a. Iran has a Nuclear Weapon b. A means of safely delivering it and hitting a target in Israel and c. Iran would be so stupid to think it would be a good idea bearing in mind Israel would turn Iran into a sea of glass before even Iran's bomb had even hit its target.

So no I don't think there will be a War with Iran.

I think Israel needs to start thinking about "Peace" with its neighbours, a difficult concept I know but it cannot continue for much longer on its present course.

The tide is turning, In April the Palestinian Authority will be allowed to join the ICC and its first action will be to seek arrest warrants for most of the current Israeli Cabinet and heads of their Military for War crimes and crimes against humanity due to their horrendous attacks in Gaza where they used chemical weapons on a civilian population.

Warrants will be issued no matter how much the Israel and the US protest, this will make Israel a pariah state in the eyes of the World and sanctions against them will follow.

The house of cards that is Israel will start to collapse, it cannot exist for much longer in its present form, it has to seek a permanent, meaningful peace.

So starting a War with Iran is clearly out of the question.

Or is it the last gasp action from a regime that knows it's days are well and truly numbered.

[user104658]

Unfortunately this is not the playground, this is real life, with real people and innocent on both sides would perish if War actually started.

Exactly why I'm sick of hearing about world leaders bickering like toddlers.

[Livia]

I work partly in Israel and a lot of my work is Israel-centric. From my position I have to say that I think you're all underestimating Israel's capabilities.

[joeysteele]

It has to be understood that Israel is in an area where its very existence is always under some threat or begrudged tolerance.

The Israeli leader has made a speech saying if they had to take on Iran alone then so be it.
He is getting condemnation for that.

It was not long ago that Iran said that Israel should be completely destroyed and be out of existence altogether.

I agree with Livia, don't underestimate Israel and I also have no belief at all that Israel would even risk any nuclear action either.
Israel does have the right to exist however, without all the threats constantly thrown its way from those countries surrounding it.

[Nedusa]

It has to be understood that Israel is in an area where its very existence is always under some threat or begrudged tolerance.

The Israeli leader has made a speech saying if they had to take on Iran alone then so be it.
He is getting condemnation for that.

It was not long ago that Iran said that Israel should be completely destroyed and be out of existence altogether.

I agree with Livia, don't underestimate Israel and I also have no belief at all that Israel would even risk any nuclear action either.
Israel does have the right to exist however, without all the threats constantly thrown its way from those countries surrounding it.

Actually Joey whilst I agree the last Iranian President Ahmadinejad was aggressive and confrontational towards Israel, his words were taken out of context. He actually said that the Zionist state would disappear into the pages of history.

slightly different to saying I am going to drop a nuclear bomb on you.

and if I am honest a vast number of people around the world Jews and Non Jews alike would love to see this Zionist state consigned to the History books.

I wish people would stop cherry picking or spinning these words to suit there own agendas.

And as a footnote - Why does the current regime in Israel have so many enemies (the list grows by the day) ...go and have a look and check out some of the many atrocities committed by israel in recent years.

maybe start with them invading Gaza and deploying chemical weapons on mainly women and Children and shelling Hospitals.

Yes...that would be a good place to start.

[MTVN]

Israel has elections coming up, Netanyahu's grip on power is already a tentative one so it's in his interests to magnify the Iranian threat and portray himself as the only one capable - or willing - to forcefully counter it. Unfortunately I think Israel will always be able to rely on near uncritical support from the US. Obama isn't happy about his posturing but it's unlikely that there will be very much he can do to oppose it, the pro-Israel sentiment being so powerful in the States. And anyway, it's not long now till Obama is finished. Netanyahu does not need to be too concerned about who replaces him: Hilary has been getting increasingly close to him, and no Republican will stand a chance of winning the primary's without a strongly pro-Israel - possibly even a pro-Netanyahu - stance.

[Nedusa]

Israel has elections coming up, Netanyahu's grip on power is already a tentative one so it's in his interests to magnify the Iranian threat and portray himself as the only one capable - or willing - to forcefully counter it. Unfortunately I think Israel will always be able to rely on near uncritical support from the US. Obama isn't happy about his posturing but it's unlikely that there will be very much he can do to oppose it, the pro-Israel sentiment being so powerful in the States. And anyway, it's not long now till Obama is finished. Netanyahu does not need to be too concerned about who replaces him: Hilary has been getting increasingly close to him, and no Republican will stand a chance of winning the primary's without a strongly pro-Israel - possibly even a pro-Netanyahu - stance.

I agree with every word of your Post........

But it makes me sick to the bottom of my stomach and I wonder how such hypocrisy and double standards by the U.S be allowed to go on year after year, decade after decade.

Makes me wonder who actually controls America and defines America's foreign policy.

[Livia]

How many times has Iran, Iraq, Syria... a myriad of Arab countries - but especially Iran - said they they will wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Why no thread when that happens? Only a reaction when Israel says the same thing the Arabs have been saying for... well actually, for centuries.

[MTVN]

How many times has Iran, Iraq, Syria... a myriad of Arab countries - but especially Iran - said they they will wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Why no thread when that happens? Only a reaction when Israel says the same thing the Arabs have been saying for... well actually, for centuries.

You could always make one :shrug: though I'm not aware of pledges to wipe Israel off the map coming from any of those countries apart from Iran, and if we accept they did say that it was years ago so there wouldn't be a recent thread about it. The Ahmadinejad era is over in Iran. This is a very current story which is making the news and being discussed worldwide, I don't see the fault in arista starting the thread or any of us posting in it

[arista]

This is USA News today on all the channels

[arista]

Israel have an advanced military with excellent US trained pilots but i think they are either over confident or just talking big because defeating Iran would not be as easy as he's making out.It would be a very long and bloody conflict.


Yes and could start WW3


Note: Its good to have a Bunker

[arista]

"Military capability to successfully fight a war against Iran and would need America's help."


Not any more Nedusa

[joeysteele]

How many times has Iran, Iraq, Syria... a myriad of Arab countries - but especially Iran - said they they will wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Why no thread when that happens? Only a reaction when Israel says the same thing the Arabs have been saying for... well actually, for centuries.

That is my point too, it is said Iran said this a good while ago, however I saw no condemnation from inside Iran when it was said.

Hey, faced with trusting Israel or Iran, then I would take Israel any day of the week.

While I can also agree in part with Nedusa,(and by the way I don't cherry pick what I say either),that Israel has committed wrongs as to the Palestinian people, it is easy to condemn Israel for that while then choosing to turn a blind eye to the more extreme elements as to the Palestinians inflicting,even at times unprovoked, attacks on ordinary citizens of Israel too.

Maybe more needs to be done as to the Palestinian issue with Israel,meanwhile in addition to that,Israel still has so many hostile nations around it.
Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too.

[arista]

Joey on the Fence again

[Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too. ]

[Livia]

You could always make one :shrug: though I'm not aware of pledges to wipe Israel off the map coming from any of those countries apart from Iran, and if we accept they did say that it was years ago so there wouldn't be a recent thread about it. The Ahmadinejad era is over in Iran. This is a very current story which is making the news and being discussed worldwide, I don't see the fault in arista starting the thread or any of us posting in it

I'm not a thread-maker, you might have noticed. And there's very little chance I'd make a thread about Israel knowing what the usual reaction is.

You know where Israel is situated. They have no real friends, a couple of acquaintances they're on nodding terms with, but mostly they have enemies. Hatred and attacks against Jews across the world has increased... and likewise hatred of Israel. And sooner or later we'll get around to blaming the UK for being instrumental in creating the state of Israel in the 40s... when in actual fact, regardless of whether the state had been created or not, nothing would have stopped the Jews returning to Israel.

Aaaanyhoo.... I suppose I see this from a very different angle so I will probably step out at this point.

[joeysteele]

Joey on the Fence again

[Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too. ]

Where pray,is saying clearly that a nation has the right to stand up for itself and not be walked over, and to then identify that nation too,sitting on the fence.

[arista]

Its Great to have Livia's view
and MTVN 's view

And Nedusa
the other Early morning poster like me.

[arista]

Where pray,is saying clearly that a nation has the right to stand up for itself and not be walked over, and to then identify that nation too,sitting on the fence.


But the rest of you post is on the Fence
its joey wishy washy style


"While I can also agree in part with Nedusa"



I say Israel Go ahead
Feck USA


Joey you are on the Fence

[joeysteele]

But the rest of you post is on the Fence
its joey wishy washy style


"While I can also agree in part with Nedusa"



I say Israel Go ahead
Feck USA


Joey you are on the Fence

I rarely sit on the fence unless I have no strong feelings either way.

It is not sitting on the fence to make a choice and state where your support lies as I did as to the conclusions of my original post.

Sitting on the fence means making no choice.Which I rarely do,the only thing I do often do, is be swayed by arguments stronger than mine and from where I can see I maybe made the wrong choice.
That is no way at allt he case on this issue.

People also,(as I said I agreed with nedusa in part), can in fact agree and see where the other person is coming from,however I did not fully agree with nedusa and came down on the side of Israel, although respecting their position too.

Again that is not sitting on the fence, it is a reasoned debate position and with a respectful,reasoned exchange of opinion.

[Nedusa]

That is my point too, it is said Iran said this a good while ago, however I saw no condemnation from inside Iran when it was said.

Hey, faced with trusting Israel or Iran, then I would take Israel any day of the week.

While I can also agree in part with Nedusa,(and by the way I don't cherry pick what I say either),that Israel has committed wrongs as to the Palestinian people, it is easy to condemn Israel for that while then choosing to turn a blind eye to the more extreme elements as to the Palestinians inflicting,even at times unprovoked, attacks on ordinary citizens of Israel too.

Maybe more needs to be done as to the Palestinian issue with Israel,meanwhile in addition to that,Israel still has so many hostile nations around it.
Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too.

Make no mistake nobody.......and I repeat Nobody walks over Israel, 6 Billion Dollars a year from the US all the advanced weaponry that the US has and over 200 thermonuclear warheads makes sure that Israel is never walked all over.

That really isn't the problem tbh.... the problem is that Israel uses this victim mentality to ensure they can pretty much do what they want to the Palestinians, I could spend hours here listing atrocity after atrocity that has been bestowed on the Palestinian people. Their tragedy is of Biblical proportions yet no one in the West seems to give a fig about their plight.

It is sickening and disgraceful and the US must take a large portion of the blame as it gives massive financial aid , advanced weaponry, intelligence, logistics and has allowed Israel to amass the 6th largest Nuclear weapons stockpile in the world (Allegedly).

The US uses its position to support Israel at all levels, it vetos UN resolution after UN resolution allowing Israel to commit mass murder and Genocide whenever it feels "threatened"

The state of Israel is a blight on this planet and there will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel accepts it must make reparations to the Palestinians for the initial land grab and decades of murderous enslavement that has followed.

Israel must stop this war mentality and make a lasting peace and reach a settlement with the Palestinians and its Arab neighbours.

The US could push this process along if it wished but it does nothing but continue the Status quo. It is a truly shocking spectacle to witness.

[arista]

I rarely sit on the fence unless I have no strong feelings either way.

It is not sitting on the fence to make a choice and state where your support lies as I di as to the conlsions of my original post.

Sitting on the fence means making no choice.Which I rarely do,the only thing I do often do, is be swayed by arguments stronger than mine and from where I can see I maybe made the wrong choice.
That is no way at allt he case on this issue.

People also,(as I said I agreed with nedusa in part), can in fact agree and see where the other person is coming from,however I did not fully agree with nedusa and came down on the side of Israel, although respecting their position too.

Again that is not sitting on the fence, it is a reasoned debate position and with a respectful,reasoned exchange of opinion.


OK so are you with me on them Nuking Iran

or are you with the USA President of do nothing

[Brother Leon]

They just about managed to handle Hezbollah didn't they(if that)? I imagine this could be very messy for both parties should it happen

[arista]

They just about managed to handle Hezbollah didn't they(if that)? I imagine this could be very messy for both parties should it happen


Yes it can start WW3


I am ready
are You?

[Nedusa]

Yes it can start WW3


I am ready
are You?

What..?? You are ready for WW3 really. Do you have your own deep nuclear bunker Arista ? with plenty of food and water to wait out the Nuclear Winter.

[JoshBB]

They would need the help of the US to do this and the US is trying to make political progress with Iran not help Israel bomb them back to the Stone Age .

He really is a vile man. Bombing iran is literally just going to turn more people to extremism, it's not helping

[joeysteele]

Make no mistake nobody.......and I repeat Nobody walks over Israel, 6 Billion Dollars a year from the US all the advanced weaponry that the US has and over 200 thermonuclear warheads makes sure that Israel is never walked all over.

That really isn't the problem tbh.... the problem is that Israel uses this victim mentality to ensure they can pretty much do what they want to the Palestinians, I could spend hours here listing atrocity after atrocity that has been bestowed on the Palestinian people. Their tragedy is of Biblical proportions yet no one in the West seems to give a fig about their plight.

It is sickening and disgraceful and the US must take a large portion of the blame as it gives massive financial aid , advanced weaponry, intelligence, logistics and has allowed Israel to amass the 6th largest Nuclear weapons stockpile in the world (Allegedly).

The US uses its position to support Israel at all levels, it vetos UN resolution after UN resolution allowing Israel to commit mass murder and Genocide whenever it feels "threatened"

The state of Israel is a blight on this planet and there will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel accepts it must make reparations to the Palestinians for the initial land grab and decades of murderous enslavement that has followed.

Israel must stop this war mentality and make a lasting peace and reach a settlement with the Palestinians and its Arab neighbours.

The US could push this process along if it wished but it does nothing but continue the Status quo. It is a truly shocking spectacle to witness.

I think that,to be fair, is a rather inflammatory statement.
Furthermore, no one should be able to walk over Israel,no way.

I can agree it could help to get a solution to the Palestinian issue but I actually feel the USA and to a degree the UK too have failed to really come up with a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations as to that.

I could never agree that Israel is a blight on the planet,There are likely a majority of Israeli's in Israel who would love to be able to exist in peace and not have threats of war going on all the time as to it.

With respect too, even with a Palestinian solution between Israel and the Palestinians,I very much doubt that will stop the tensions in the main in the Middle East as to countries like Iran,who are against Israel even being there at all.

[arista]

What..?? You are ready for WW3 really. Do you have your own deep nuclear bunker Arista ? with plenty of food and water to wait out the Nuclear Winter.


Yes plenty of food long life

and Alkaline Batterys from Bankrupt Kodak Stock
8 for a pound use by 2024
at poundland.


Same Duracell Long Life 8
would cost £9 or more

[Nedusa]

I think that,to be fair, is a rather inflammatory statement.
Furthermore, no one should be able to walk over Israel,no way.

I can agree it could help to get a solution to the Palestinian issue but I actually feel the USA and to a degree the UK too have failed to really come up with a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations as to that.

I could never agree that Israel is a blight on the planet,There are likely a majority of Israeli's in Israel who would love to be able to exist in peace and not have threats of war going on all the time as to it.

With respect too, even with a Palestinian solution between Israel and the Palestinians,I very much doubt that will stop the tensions in the main in the Middle East as to countries like Iran,who are against Israel even being there at all.

The way Israel is governed is tantamount to an apartheid state like pre Mandela South africa. The Palestinian Israelis are treated like 2nd class citizens and the Palestinians are treated worse than animals.

And funnily enough they are all semites so have no grounds for being racist.

Fact is Israel are not willing to allow Muslims to share any power in "their" land even if it was stolen from the Palestinians in the first place.

Ordinary Israelis are apologists for their Govt's they know deep down they are living on stolen land and know they have to support their Govt and it's armies to keep the status quo.

America knows it must support Israel financially and politically to keep Israel as the only Hegemon in the area so the US has an ally on the ground so to speak. It's all politics really but tell that to the innocent Palestinians who are brutalised daily and for decades. not much fun for them.

This is why Israel is hated by most if not all Arab Countries and Countries with Shiite populations like Iran.

This is why the US is hated in equal measure because they prop up this illegal state.

When people condone Israel and lay the blame at Hamas or Hezbollah they are showing extreme ignorance and don't want to see the truth that is right in front of their faces.

so yes the "tensions" as you put it will take years if not decades to subside because the damage done to generations of Palestinian families will take that long to be repaired.

[Livia]

With respect, Nedusa, many Palestinians live and work quite happily alongside the Jews in Israel. What's more, I'm at a loss to know why being a semite means you have no grounds for being a racist. Anyone of any colour and any creed can be racist.

I quite take exception to the suggestion that people who condone Israel are showing show extreme ignorance. In my eyes, people who've never been to Israel and experienced it first hand and who never even consider there may be another page in the book, and yet make massive, sweeping generalisations are maybe the ones showing ignorance.

[Nedusa]

With respect, Nedusa, many Palestinians live and work quite happily alongside the Jews in Israel. What's more, I'm at a loss to know why being a semite means you have no grounds for being a racist. Anyone of any colour and any creed can be racist.

I quite take exception to the suggestion that people who condone Israel are showing show extreme ignorance. In my eyes, people who've never been to Israel and experienced it first hand and who never even consider there may be another page in the book, and yet make massive, sweeping generalisations are maybe the ones showing ignorance.

Sorry Livia , with respect please do even try and defend the indefensible....

[joeysteele]

With respect, Nedusa, many Palestinians live and work quite happily alongside the Jews in Israel. What's more, I'm at a loss to know why being a semite means you have no grounds for being a racist. Anyone of any colour and any creed can be racist.

I quite take exception to the suggestion that people who condone Israel are showing show extreme ignorance. In my eyes, people who've never been to Israel and experienced it first hand and who never even consider there may be another page in the book, and yet make massive, sweeping generalisations are maybe the ones showing ignorance.

I fully agree, I am stunned at some of the comments posted on this thread actually.

You are of course right too in that Palestinians and Jews do work fine together in that area.
I don't think you are even trying to defend the indefensible,you would never need to, you are only stating truth and truth you have experienced and know 100% about too.

[Livia]

Sorry Livia , with respect please do even try and defend the indefensible....

This is supposed to be a debate. I'm not defending all the actions of the Israeli government, but I should be able to say my piece as I see it without being asked not to.

And if you have been to Israel and have seen it close up, then shame on you for not being honest enough to condemn the regime without reservation.

Shame on me? For speaking about another side to the argument? Because there IS another side. But a discussion about Israel is not possible, sadly.

[Livia]

I fully agree, I am stunned at some of the comments posted on this thread actually.

You are of course right too in that Palestinians and Jews do work fine together in that area.
I don't think you are even trying to defend the indefensible,you would never need to, you are only stating truth and truth you have experienced and know 100% about too.

Thank you, Joey. And of course, no right-minded person could agree with everything Israel does. Sadly this is not a black and white discussion... and as I don't feel free to contribute as with all threads concerning Israel, I'm stepping out.

[joeysteele]

Thank you, Joey. And of course, no right-minded person could agree with everything Israel does. Sadly this is not a black and white discussion... and as I don't feel free to contribute as with all threads concerning Israel, I'm stepping out.

You shouldn't feel like that Livia, you can tell us with much more balance and knowledge of fact, what the real situation is other than the biased ones one way or the other.

You have always said in posts past and present that Israel does not do all things right or even well at times but as you point out, there is more to the situation than what is just on the surface.

I myself have taken on board and learned loads as to this issue from your posts and your presentation of the issues.
I really thank you and respect you for all that enlightenment too.

[Livia]

You shouldn't feel like that Livia, you can tell us with much more balance and knowledge of fact, what the real situation is other than the biased ones one way or the other.

You have always said in posts past and present that Israel does not do all things right or even well at times but as you point out, there is more to the situation than what is just on the surface.

I myself have taken on board and learned loads as to this issue from your posts and your presentation of the issues.
I really thank you and respect you for all that enlightenment too.

You're a gent, Joeysteele. x

[MTVN]

I'm not a thread-maker, you might have noticed. And there's very little chance I'd make a thread about Israel knowing what the usual reaction is.

You know where Israel is situated. They have no real friends, a couple of acquaintances they're on nodding terms with, but mostly they have enemies. Hatred and attacks against Jews across the world has increased... and likewise hatred of Israel. And sooner or later we'll get around to blaming the UK for being instrumental in creating the state of Israel in the 40s... when in actual fact, regardless of whether the state had been created or not, nothing would have stopped the Jews returning to Israel.

Aaaanyhoo.... I suppose I see this from a very different angle so I will probably step out at this point.

I don't agree with some of the sentiments in this thread and I have nothing against Israel's right to exist - I appreciate that their whole modern existence has been marred by threats to that. I don't, though, think that it needs to be a straight choice between Israel and Iran, Israel and Palestine, Israel and the Arab world. IMO both sides have put up barriers to conciliation and the hardliners on each side have fed and enabled each other. Both sides should appreciate that it can't be sustainable for regional neighbours to constantly be holding hostile positions against each other. Iran could have their grievances as well. While Israel may feel surrounded they are a nuclear armed state with the backing of (arguably) the most powerful country on the planet. Iran on the other hand has been cut off from the international community and met with constant sanctions and threats. It could of course be said that their actions have deserved that but I'm not sure if it does anything other than exacerbate the divide and encourage the hardliners to a position of strength on the back of a wave of anti-Israel/America sentiment. And in turn the attitude of Ahmedinejad and the actions of Hamas etc have enabled a belligerent figure like Netanyahu rise to a position of strength and allowed him to justify things like the settlement program, the iron hand on Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing campaigns. And that in turns feeds the anti-Israel hardliners. And so on. It's a maddening cycle of violence, surely at some point or the other one side has to relent on the hostility and sabre rattling. Maybe that's not possible with Iran and others because they're so opposed to Israel's very existence. But it's got to be worth a try and would be in everyone's interests.

[Livia]

I'm not going to continue a discussion, as I said... but I just had to say, great post MTVN.

[MTVN]

Ah I completely understand why you wouldn't want to post in this thread Livia but just to echo what Joey said I do really appreciate your view - even if we don't always agree - and the knowledge you bring to this subject. I think the worst thing anyone can do is to try and make out that they alone completely understand the situation when its as complex as it is

[Nedusa]

Having read the last few Posts this morning I think this is a difficult subject to debate and a complicated one at that.

Passions can be aroused on both sides of the debate which can quickly turn into personal jibes (my apologies if any of my posts yesterday fell into this category).

I think threads on this particular topic do nobody any favours if I'm honest.

[empire]

A word of warning, if the little state dare tried, Russia will fire a couple of nukes at them, and it is bye bye to the world,

[arista]

A word of warning, if the little state dare tried, Russia will fire a couple of nukes at them, and it is bye bye to the world,


Bang On Right empire

[the truth]

How many times has Iran, Iraq, Syria... a myriad of Arab countries - but especially Iran - said they they will wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Why no thread when that happens? Only a reaction when Israel says the same thing the Arabs have been saying for... well actually, for centuries.

I don't think they've ever said it....do you have the direct quote or the direst misquote from the Israeli propaganda channel/fox news......they long to see an end to Zionism etc but I don't recall the exact words that fox and you have just regurgitated...lets face it Israel has zero right to steal land and steal country 2000 years after allegedly passing through there. its as dumb as an Italian laying claim to my house in mid wales because it was own by the romans 2000 years ago. Israel is an insane project that should never have happened and sadly will never work.

[the truth]

Having read the last few Posts this morning I think this is a difficult subject to debate and a complicated one at that.

Passions can be aroused on both sides of the debate which can quickly turn into personal jibes (my apologies if any of my posts yesterday fell into this category).

I think threads on this particular topic do nobody any favours if I'm honest.

trouble is no one is allowed to really debate it in mainstream media. theyre simply too scared of being labelled anti semitic

[GypsyGoth]

I don't think they've ever said it....do you have the direct quote or the direst misquote from the Israeli propaganda channel/fox news......they long to see an end to Zionism etc but I don't recall the exact words that fox and you have just regurgitated...lets face it Israel has zero right to steal land and steal country 2000 years after allegedly passing through there. its as dumb as an Italian laying claim to my house in mid wales because it was own by the romans 2000 years ago. Israel is an insane project that should never have happened and sadly will never work.

"Vanish from the page of time," according to wiki, that is the direct translation, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_ma p.22_controversy). That's as bad as threatening to wipe a country off the map, if not worse.

As far as taking land, that is done all the time by companies and countries, and a lot of the time they write their own laws and answer to no one. And my point is, ownership of land can always be questioned. And what is right and wrong is very subjective.

And Israel is a modern country, it's surrounded by countries that are hostile to it. It's not an insane project. It's home to a lot of people who only want to live in peace.

Iran and the US seem to have gotten somewhat closer because of the war in Syria. I think the Israeli leader was just taking an opportunity to remind the US that Iran is not a real friend.

[the truth]

"Vanish from the page of time," according to wiki, that is the direct translation, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_ma p.22_controversy). That's as bad as threatening to wipe a country off the map, if not worse.

As far as taking land, that is done all the time by companies and countries, and a lot of the time they write their own laws and answer to no one. And my point is, ownership of land can always be questioned. And what is right and wrong is very subjective.

And Israel is a modern country, it's surrounded by countries that are hostile to it. It's not an insane project. It's home to a lot of people who only want to live in peace.

Iran and the US seem to have gotten somewhat closer because of the war in Syria. I think the Israeli leader was just taking an opportunity to remind the US that Iran is not a real friend. dishonest editing as always....Zionism to disappear from the page...NOT Israel. ...but at least you've accidentally admitted the term wipe Israel off the map wasnever said and should never be used to justify world war 3 and the mass killing of 100s of thousands of innocents.
to Palestinians who have had their country stolen tens of thousands killed and bombed out of existence and most human rights taken away, isn't it natural for them to wish for an end to the Zionist movement that has seen them suffer so much? to the Palestinians the Zionist movement is as evil as the Nazis were to the rest fo the world

[GypsyGoth]

dishonest editing as always....Zionism to disappear from the page...NOT Israel.
to Palestinians who have had their country stolen tens of thousands killed and bombed out of existence and most human rights taken away, isn't it natural for them to wish for an end to the Zionist movement that has seen them suffer so much? to the Palestinians the Zionist movement is as evil as the Nazis were to the rest fo the world

But isn't Zionism one of the reasons Israel is there? (I've just looked up the word, so forgive me if I'm a bit off). So without Zionism there would be no Israel as we know it. I don't see any dishonesty.

Do you really believe that the Iranian Government wants the best for the people of Israel?

And the Islamic side of this debate is the one who is beheading people and wiping out villages, the extremists in Judaism seem to only grow ringlets and quote scripture.

[the truth]

But isn't Zionism one of the reasons Israel is there? (I've just looked up the word, so forgive me if I'm a bit off). So without Zionism there would be no Israel as we know it. I don't see any dishonesty.

Do you really believe that the Iranian Government wants the best for the people of Israel?

And the Islamic side of this debate is the one who is beheading people and wiping out villages, the extremists in Judaism seem to only grow ringlets and quote scripture.

pls don't be so absurd , the israels stole a country and bombed the Palestinians into smitherseens every day ever since we help found this horrific country 60 odd years ago....they didn't say Israel in your misquote they say Zionism..the Zionism movement has been an evil one, that's butchered tens of thousands....the victims have every right to wish to see such a movement end

[GypsyGoth]

pls don't be so absurd , the israels stole a country and bombed the Palestinians into smitherseens every day ever since we help found this horrific country 60 odd years ago....they didn't say Israel in your misquote they say Zionism..the Zionism movement has been an evil one, that's butchered tens of thousands....the victims have every right to wish to see such a movement end

I don't see how your point of view will help make the world more peaceful. It seems to me if you had your way there would be no Israel.

And there are lots of conflicts in the world that are ongoing, ones that way more people are being killed in, so why chose this one. There have been half a million deaths in the Somalian civil war, land is being stolen. In the Israel Palestine war, about 25 thousand have died, land is being stolen.

I leave it up to you to figure out if you're antisemetic.

And you seem to be one hung up on that quote and you're totally mistaken, it was said by someone from Iran, not Palestine.

[the truth]

I don't see how your point of view will help make the world more peaceful. It seems to me if you had your way there would be no Israel.

And there are lots of conflicts in the world that are ongoing, ones that way more people are being killed in, so why chose this one. There have been half a million deaths in the Somalian civil war, land is being stolen. In the Israel Palestine war, about 25 thousand have died, land is being stolen.

I leave it up to you to figure out if you're antisemetic.

And you seem to be one hung up on that quote and you're totally mistaken, it was said by someone from Iran, not Palestine.

im glad you admit you were wrong now. the quote was a lie and its being used to justify the deaths fo thousands....of course you now predictable try to change the subject........pathetically transparent. the disgraceful country of Israel should never have been set up. everything ever since has been a disaster and will continue to be so..ill leave it to you to work out if youre anti Islamic....if this threatens world war 3....don't you think all humans have a right to speak about it??

[GypsyGoth]

im glad you admit you were wrong now. the quote was a lie and its being used to justify the deaths fo thousands....of course you now predictable try to change the subject........pathetically transparent. the disgraceful country of Israel should never have been set up. everything ever since has been a disaster and will continue to be so....if it threatens world war 3....don't you think all humans have a right to speak about it??

I don't mind that you have an opinion, and it doesn't really bother me that you've taken a side. But according to the media the next world war is always imminent, it changes from north korea, to russia, to iran, to someone else next. After one story runs it's course, another starts up.

As far as the Israel and Palestine thing, we kinda have an expert on the situation here, someone who spends a lot of time there and I'm inclined to trust her when it comes to this. She mentioned before that people on both sides do wrong to each other. So the solution would be to have people who want peace governing both sides, unfortunately that seems like a long way off.

[the truth]

I don't mind that you have an opinion, and it doesn't really bother me that you've taken a side. But according to the media the next world war is always imminent, it changes from north korea, to russia, to iran, to someone else next. After one story runs it's course, another starts up.

As far as the Israel and Palestine thing, we kinda have an expert on the situation here, someone who spends a lot of time there and I'm inclined to trust her when it comes to this. She mentioned before that people on both sides do wrong to each other. So the solution would be to have people who want peace governing both sides, unfortunately that seems like a long way off.

other than the fact all healthy debate over Israel is banned across the western world, which is wholly unhealthy and dangerous, what worries me most and should worry the whole world is netenyahu has a plethora of missiles...and has already proved himself to be warmonger

[Nedusa]

other than the fact all healthy debate over Israel is banned across the western world, which is wholly unhealthy and dangerous, what worries me most and should worry the whole world is netenyahu has a plethora of missiles...and has already proved himself to be warmonger

I see debate on this subject is banned on this forum also.

As my earlier post has mysteriously vanished I ask the question to whoever runs this website...

What is the point of having a serious debate forum if you delete posts that speak the uncomfortable truth about a subject.

Freedom of speech on this forum is now clearly impossible.

Perhaps at the start of each thread we should be told what we can and cannot say.

Makes this site a bit rubbish if I'm honest and total waste of time.

Been posting on here for years but this is just blatant censorship.

[user104658]

And the Islamic side of this debate is the one who is beheading people and wiping out villages, the extremists in Judaism seem to only grow ringlets and quote scripture.

I would suggest that you look up Meir Kahane and the "Jewish Defense League", or the "unofficial" militant groups of Jewish young men and boys who patrol Gaza. Whilst we're not talking about the level of "wiping out villages", this idea that there is no such thing as Jewish or Christian extremism is, as always, nonsense.

[arista]

"As my earlier post has mysteriously vanished I ask the question to whoever runs this website..."

Do not go there


Mark owns this Forum
James and the Team run it.

You can ask admin if they know
why your post got Deleted
Or maybe later they will tell you
but be polite about it
I know you have that quality
and I sometimes Lack that.

Life In The City

[Nedusa]

"As my earlier post has mysteriously vanished I ask the question to whoever runs this website..."

Do not go there


Mark owns this Forum
James and the Team run it.

You can ask admin if they know
why your post got Deleted
Or maybe later they will tell you
but be polite about it
I know you have that quality
and I sometimes Lack that.

Life In The City

But Arista, I try and ensure all posts stay the right side of the rules, I do not set out to incite hatred and would avoid "hate speech" at all costs.

But if a subject is worthy of extreme criticism and my viewpoint is quite extreme then surely I should be allowed to express my feelings.

also my views are well shared and borne out by facts so again I ask the question why is this view not allowed to stand on a forum that purports to encourage "Serious Debate and News".......

Looks like censorship to me............

[Livia]

But Arista, I try and ensure all posts stay the right side of the rules, I do not set out to incite hatred and would avoid "hate speech" at all costs.

But if a subject is worthy of extreme criticism and my viewpoint is quite extreme then surely I should be allowed to express my feelings.

also my views are well shared and borne out by facts so again I ask the question why is this view not allowed to stand on a forum that purports to encourage "Serious Debate and News".......

Looks like censorship to me............

I reported your post, Nedusa. I reported it because it was highly insulting and inflammatory. Several of your posts have been insulting but I took particular exception to that post, especially since I'd stepped out of the thread because of your reaction to my posts and yet you continued to insult me indirectly. You will deny it, no doubt. But we both know. And frankly, I'm surprised you haven't been warned over your comments.

The only censorship going on here is the hysterical stance of the strongly pro-Palestine posters. I understand you're passionate about the subject but this has seemingly rendered you incapable to having a discussion about this subject. I feel I have been shut down, insulted and silenced, even though I've never once said that the Israelis are right in all aspects of what they do, I've simply tried to talk about the bigger picture. You've told me twice not to defend the indefensible and some of your posts are insulting and offensive.

I would be more than happy to have a non-hysterical discussion about this, but am unable to. That looks like censorship to me.

[user104658]

MPMmC0UAnj0

[arista]

MPMmC0UAnj0


Yes a great Clip.



Israel has Full Rights to protect itself

[Niamh.]

Back on topic please. Nedusa you should be able to discuss a topic and your point of view without calling people who disagree with your stance ignorant and stupid

[arista]

"Looks like censorship to me............"


No you are wrong
other sites are Far Far Worse
making this site one of the best in the World

[Nedusa]

Back on topic please. Nedusa you should be able to discuss a topic and your point of view without calling people who disagree with your stance ignorant and stupid

OK.......Sorry , My Apologies

I will refrain from posting on this topic as I find it difficult to remain dispassionate.

[user104658]

"Looks like censorship to me............"


No you are wrong
other sites are Far Far Worse
making this site one of the best in the World

This is actually true, Tibby censorship is low as forums go. I can only think of two that I've been on that had less, and I owned one of them. The other was a little secret haven of COMPLETE freedom of speech with a very select membership and zero censorship. Sadly, all of the members have moved on now. I miss it... it was Darwinian.

Anyway, yes, I agree - this forum is really quite flexible when it comes to what you can and can't say. I've only had a handful of infractions... I've been banned on other forums for less.

[arista]

"I've been banned on other forums for less. "


You Devil

[GypsyGoth]

Thanks for posting that kirk, I found it informative.

[kirklancaster]

Thanks for posting that kirk, I found it informative.

Thanks Goth - I'm glad it was of some use to you.

[Kizzy]

The answer to genocide is....genocide?

Ethnic cleansing is that right, or am I missing something?

[Northern Monkey]

It is impossible in one post to examine in any great detail this very complex issue, but I am nonetheless compelled to address what I regard as certain anti-Israeli pro-Palestinian fallacies, even if such an undertaking results in several individual posts – notwithstanding the inevitable counter responses which I welcome.

I feel the best place to start is in clearing up some of the untruths regarding the Israeli's legitimate rights to be living in the State of Israel and the fallacies concerning the ‘State of Palestine’ and the actual ‘Palestinians’ themselves.

Leaving aside ‘Biblical’ evidence – for obvious reasons – there is real, if not conclusive evidence, that Jews have existed on the land which is now the State of Israel for over 3000 years, whilst at the same time it is beyond argument that ‘Palestinians’ per se have never truly historically existed and NOWHERE in pre 1960’s history has there ever been a State of Palestine.

The Merneptah Victory Stele bears an inscription by Egyptian King Meneptah who reigned from 1213 to 1203 BC and was discovered by Petrie in 1896 at Thebes. The inscription largely records Merneptah's victory over the Libyans, but also mentions another military campaign in Canaan (then part of Egypt's conquests and where modern day Israel is now situated),in which Merneptah says he defeated Ashkalon, Gezer, Yanoam and Israel.

Another ‘stele’ discovered in 1868 was inscribed by King Mesha of Moab (now Jordan) and dates to 840 BC. The inscriptions on this stele mentions how the Moabites were “subjugated’ to Israel”, and also mentions the Israelite God YAHWEH and makes the first non-Biblical reference to King David and The House of David.

Yet another ancient stele - the Tel Dan Stele – which dates to around 900 BC - was discovered in 1993–94 during a dig at Tel Dan in Northern Israel, and,its inscription in Aramaic makes reference to victories by an unknown King (but attributed to a Damascan King Hazael) over “the king of Israel and his ally the king of the "House of David".

There is other non-Biblical archaeological evidence - inscriptions on broken pottery etc - which not only places Israelis (Jews) living in Israel (Canaan) for 500 years between 3200 to 2700 years ago, but also confirms the Judaic God YAHWEH and the Biblical King David.

But what of the Palestinian case?

In stark contrast to the evidence for the Jews living in and ruling over Israel going back over 3000 years, there has never been a country called Palestine, nor was there ever a nation of people called ‘Palestinians’ until after 1964, and until this time, ‘Palestinians’ were merely ‘Arabs’, and even referred to themselves as ‘Arabs’.

In the year 135 AD, the Roman emperor Hadrian, crushed yet another Jewish rebellion and banished many of the Jews, enslaved others, and allowed only a minority of Jews to remain .in Judea (where their descendants remained right up to present times).

As an insult to these defeated Jews and in an attempt to eradicate Jewish identity, Hadrian mockingly renamed Judea as ‘Syria-Palestinia’ (‘Palestinia’ being the Latin word for ‘Philistine’, a once arch-enemy of the Jews who were by now extinct.)

So; over 3000 years after the existence of the Jews in Israel has been repeatedly historically proved, we have the first mention of the word ‘Palestine’, but it was little more than a Roman ‘nick-name used to cause offense to the subjugated Jews, and the people we now – wrongly – refer to as ‘Palestinians’ were simply ‘Arabs’ who referred to themselves as Arabs for hundreds of years until they were titled “Palestinians” for propaganda purposes by the terrorist founder of the PLO, Yassir Arafat in 1964.

Arafat himself never used the term “Palestinian” until after 1964,and far from Arabs historically using the term ’Palestinian’, they rejected and denounced it:

As far back as 1937, Arab leader Abdul-Hadi in his address to the Peel Commission said:

"There is no such country [as Palestine]. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented."

40 years later, in 1977, the same sentiment was expressed in an interview by Zahir Muhsein, a member of the PLO Executive Committee who stated;

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak about the existence of the Palestinian people."

The historical evidence also suggests that Arabs were not populous in the Holy Land until the 7th century when Muhammad initiated the spread of Islam by force and conquest.

In addition, it is telling that in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, 99% of places still have their original Hebrew names; including Bethlehem, Nazareth and Hebron.

So whilst I respect the rights of anyone on here to post their opinions on this admittedly emotional and complex issue, I cannot agree with any of the anti-Israeli comments – least of all the claim that the Israelis ‘stole’ a country from the ‘Palestinians’ because in my opinion, for over 3000 years, the ‘country’ was never anyone’s but the Israelis’ anyway, and they have merely resettled in it.

If the Lakota Sioux Indians were to be given back the state of Dakota by the US Government to resettle in, it would be ludicrous for anyone knowing the historical facts to protest that the Lakota were 'stealing' a state from the 'Americans', so therefore, for anyone to deny the rights of the Israelis to reclaim and resettle in Israel in the face of the historical evidence, is just as ridiculous - in my opinion.

The historical truth of Britain's duplicity in causing the current state-of-affairs in Israel, and the addressing of certain anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish, pro-Palestinian, comments on here, are other posts, but while I agree with Livia that Israel as a nation is not perfect nor totally innocent, I would state in their defense, that the USA and Britain are neither perfect nor totally innocent, and they have had hundreds of years and thousands of years respectively to 'get it right',so is it not grossly hypocritical and arrogant to expect Israel to achieve perfection in less than 70 years?Brilliant post!
I love all things historical.Very interesting!:clap1:

[Kizzy]

Please identify just whom you are addressing and which specific post states that "Genocide is the answer to genocide", or which specific post even mentions "ethic cleansing", and just 'who' is trying to 'ethnic cleanse' who.

Not you, It's a general comment on the topic in general.