Do you think democracy works?

[Z]

I've been reading this wonderful book about China by Martin Jacques and, among many other things, he raises a point that I've long agreed with - that democracy is just yet another value imposed on the rest of the world by white men. It's the new form of slavery, of Christian missionaries, of colonisation. A large chunk of the world has arbitrary borders drawn by people who had no understanding of the land they were carving up, who had only money in mind when they made those decisions. I think that democracy and the idea of the nation state is not a universally accepted value, nor will it ever be, because the vast majority of the world is not anywhere near developed enough to sustain it.

I think it would be for the best if Africa and the Middle East just dropped the pretense and reverted to tribal kingdoms in many areas; I think it would calm the campaigns of ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and the various other notorious groups that use extreme violence to prove a point: they don't want Western values. I think we really are on the cusp of World War III; a world war that will be centred around the Middle East and I think that the West will idly watch and do little to intervene until things get much, much worse. You could even argue that it already began a couple of years ago when the situation in Syria started to deteriorate massively - the world is a complete mess right now and the West is too busy taking part in dick measuring competitions with Vladimir Putin to notice. Not that I think that it's even our place to say or do anything - offer humanitarian aid, absolutely, but we as a collective have done a great deal of damage to the world, perhaps we should step back and wait until we're asked to help instead of sticking our noses where they're not wanted once again.

What do you think?

[Kizzy]

I agree, democracy is an illusion, money is worthless, power, land, oil and gold are the only thing heads of states want. Everything is geared towards social control formal and informal, nothing and nobody is free.

[Marsh.]

I agree, democracy is an illusion, money is worthless, power, land, oil and gold are the only thing heads of states want. Everything is geared towards social control formal and informal, nothing and nobody is free.

*slits wrists*

[Kizzy]

*slits wrists*

Hey if it's too deep here go paddle in the shallows in the lounge my fwend.

[Smithy]

Not on TiBB

[Kizzy]

:umm2:

[Marsh.]

Hey if it's too deep here go paddle in the shallows in the lounge my fwend.

:shocked:

[Kizzy]

:shocked:

Are you still here?....



Oh... I think I hear a convo about some generic American comedy, quick! :fan:

[the truth]

I've been reading this wonderful book about China by Martin Jacques and, among many other things, he raises a point that I've long agreed with - that democracy is just yet another value imposed on the rest of the world by white men. It's the new form of slavery, of Christian missionaries, of colonisation. A large chunk of the world has arbitrary borders drawn by people who had no understanding of the land they were carving up, who had only money in mind when they made those decisions. I think that democracy and the idea of the nation state is not a universally accepted value, nor will it ever be, because the vast majority of the world is not anywhere near developed enough to sustain it.

I think it would be for the best if Africa and the Middle East just dropped the pretense and reverted to tribal kingdoms in many areas; I think it would calm the campaigns of ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and the various other notorious groups that use extreme violence to prove a point: they don't want Western values. I think we really are on the cusp of World War III; a world war that will be centred around the Middle East and I think that the West will idly watch and do little to intervene until things get much, much worse. You could even argue that it already began a couple of years ago when the situation in Syria started to deteriorate massively - the world is a complete mess right now and the West is too busy taking part in dick measuring competitions with Vladimir Putin to notice. Not that I think that it's even our place to say or do anything - offer humanitarian aid, absolutely, but we as a collective have done a great deal of damage to the world, perhaps we should step back and wait until we're asked to help instead of sticking our noses where they're not wanted once again.

What do you think?

does anything work? its nothing to do with the words white or men either, nor is it really to do with any religions........its rich v poor, its a fight for land power wealth and control. That is ultimately what drives the ambition and the progress and the regress.

tribal kingdoms I don't know enough about, I presume that's the ancient power structure. clearly democracy has more holes than swiss cheese and it works far better for some richer countries than others. western nations can hide behind the so called fight for democracy and then impose 100s of their own leaders and governments, it really is a joke.

whether its tribal kingdoms, republics or constitutional monarchies ...when you have greed and corruption at the top how o you stop the carnage.

In all societies you need someone to be watching someone......take casinos as an analogy...you have the punters, the dealers, the pit bosses watching the dealers and customers, the floor manager watching the pitbulls, the bosses watching the floor managers and te eye in the sky watching them all

in the city, in the billionaires clubs, in the senate, in the war room, who has the power to decide? average joe? who are these people accountable too? to serve the elite. who watches them? who is their eye in the sky? As long as they create an elite to make themselves untouchable theyre pretty much untouchable. and now they haven't even got God to make them feel guilty about it

fight the real power

[Marsh.]

Someone's been on the bitch pills. :unsure:

[JoshBB]

If we didn't have democracy it would ultimately result in workers' being trampled by corporations and minorities being persecuted. So, no.

[Kizzy]

Religion is the ultimate tool of social control, and if you don't subscribe to it you are seen as undemocratic as democracy is said to have christian values at it's core.
This is unfair.

[Nedusa]

No of course it doesn't work. I mean how can 51% tell 49% what to do even though it is democratic . It's not really is it...?

[Nedusa]

How about a Meritocracy ...

[Kizzy]

What we have is an unofficial oligarchy.

[DemolitionRed]

Sounds right up my street Z, in fact I've just ordered it on Amazon :)


What do I think about 'democracy'? I believe its an illusion of a clean safe world we want our children to grow up in. Its a place where we believe we have the power to choose; a place where consumerism reigns and debt imprisons us. Our democracy isn't about the freedom of its citizens in the truest sense; its about giving individuals the right to imprison themselves in their own shiny bubbles.

Many of those who speak proudly about living in a democracy will be hitting the shopping malls rather than going to vote!!

[Kizzy]

I posted this yesterday in another thread but it has relevance here too, don't be put off by the title and the fact it's 2hrs long :laugh:

Skip to the last half hourish.

LUFv4rbBkhg

[the truth]

Religion is the ultimate tool of social control, and if you don't subscribe to it you are seen as undemocratic as democracy is said to have christian values at it's core.
This is unfair. complete and utter nonsense. The elite the ambition for power and control, human greed is the ultimate tool of control. This is what drives wars even before religion and after religion. Christianity is about the opposite of what you claimed. Christ preached against the elite , against the lust for greed and power, he fought for the weak the lame and the blind. Mathew preached against greed, they preached against trading in the temples..Christ fought the kings he fought the power. So youre completely wrong.

[GypsyGoth]

I posted this yesterday in another thread but it has relevance here too, don't be put off by the title and the fact it's 2hrs long :laugh:

Skip to the last half hourish.

LUFv4rbBkhg

I did skip to the last 30mins, it was very interesting.

I don't believe his ubuntu society will work for a country, it's fine for a small community, but on a large scale it will fall apart. Also I feel that it's main flaw is that it presumed that all people are good but in reality they're not.

[Kizzy]

Then as a true Christian you must rebel against these people who have taken the word of the lord and manipulated it to subjugate the masses.

[Kizzy]

I did skip to the last 30mins, it was very interesting.

I don't believe his ubuntu society will work for a country, it's fine for a small community, but on a large scale it will fall apart. Also I feel that it's main flaw is that it presumed that all people are good but in reality they're not.

Remember the bank of Dave? That worked, in fact it worked that well they put a stop to it.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-2541195/Bank-Dave-founder-Dave-Fishwick-new-Loan-Ranger.html

Ps... now watch the first hour and a half :laugh:

[GypsyGoth]

Remember the bank of Dave? That worked, in fact it worked that well they put a stop to it.

That's the thing also, the people who want this happier fairer world, well they are up against banks and corporations who have governments, police forces and armies on their side.

[GypsyGoth]

Ps... now watch the first hour and a half :laugh:

:laugh: I will another time, when I'm not so tired.

[Kizzy]

That's the thing also, the people who want this happier fairer world, well they are up against banks and corporations who have governments, police forces and armies on their side.

It's an oppressive business this democracy :)

[MTVN]

Democracy is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Like Capitalism. It should not be treated as the most virtuous system or as the end game of civilisation like it often is. It is however a good foundation which befits our country and most of the world. Of course you will ever truly get total democracy where all of society decides on every single decision because that would be ridiculous, but we have utilised the idea of democracy as best we can and integrated it into an effective and efficient way to govern. As much as we like to beat on our own democracy it is the envy of much of the world and is very successful.

Not all countries will agree of course that the Western model is best for them. IMO it's a failure of Western policy that we took the attitude that every other country in the world wants to be like us, even if they don't know it yet. Surely deep down everyone wants a Western style democracy right? But of course they don't. And it's why I'm always wary of global intervention because it carries a certain arrogance that we know best and should impose that on everyone else. Maybe democracy is just not tenable in some countries. In a lot of the Middle East, where nations are melting pots of ethnic and religious tension, it's hard to see how a secular and democratic government can emerge from all that while also trying to keep a lid on it. 'Democracy' carries such saintly connotations in this day that its a hard thing to argue against, but it is not the ultimate and infallible ideal that it can often be made out to be

[Kizzy]

Democracy is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Like Capitalism. It should not be treated as the most virtuous system or as the end game of civilisation like it often is. It is however a good foundation which befits our country and most of the world. Of course you will ever truly get total democracy where all of society decides on every single decision because that would be ridiculous, but we have utilised the idea of democracy as best we can and integrated it into an effective and efficient way to govern. As much as we like to beat on our own democracy it is the envy of much of the world and is very successful.

Not all countries will agree of course that the Western model is best for them. IMO it's a failure of Western policy that we took the attitude that every other country in the world wants to be like us, even if they don't know it yet. Surely deep down everyone wants a Western style democracy right? But of course they don't. And it's why I'm always wary of global intervention because it carries a certain arrogance that we know best and should impose that on everyone else. Maybe democracy is just not tenable in some countries. In a lot of the Middle East, where nations are melting pots of ethnic and religious tension, it's hard to see how a secular and democratic government can emerge from all that while also trying to keep a lid on it. 'Democracy' carries such saintly connotations in this day that its a hard thing to argue against, but it is not the ultimate and infallible ideal that it can often be made out to be

In the west I believe we have the illusion of democracy, we 'think' we're making at least some of the important decisions regarding our democracy...but we're not it's all a charade.
It's only when you see how we operate in a pincer formation for what we want that you realise we're far removed from the image projected.
Democracy has it's darkside like capitalism right enough, but when you see that rights are being eroded it's not good enough to say 'well it could be worse we could be China'.....but then, we could be China.
And we could have all the issues of the middle east, things could be better but they could also be a lot worse.
Governments the world over have laid claim to every bit of land and all the earths resources, that's not conducive to a happy population as they have nowhere to live and nothing to live off.

[the truth]

Then as a true Christian you must rebel against these people who have taken the word of the lord and manipulated it to subjugate the masses.

I try. Its the nature of evil they use anything and pervert anything to justify their evil deeds. our society is mostly built on Christian principles, however weve allowed so many appalling laws and seemlingly endless petty rules and regulations behind which the rich can hide. the more stupid laws ultimately the more corruption by the elite. and you can see how much they care by their sub human behaviour in parliament.

[MTVN]

In the west I believe we have the illusion of democracy, we 'think' we're making at least some of the important decisions regarding our democracy...but we're not it's all a charade.
It's only when you see how we operate in a pincer formation for what we want that you realise we're far removed from the image projected.
Democracy has it's darkside like capitalism right enough, but when you see that rights are being eroded it's not good enough to say 'well it could be worse we could be China'.....but then, we could be China.
And we could have all the issues of the middle east, things could be better but they could also be a lot worse.
Governments the world over have laid claim to every bit of land and all the earths resources, that's not conducive to a happy population as they have nowhere to live and nothing to live off.

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that

[the truth]

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that sadly voting in absurdly strong seats is a waste of space. engaging in arguments on issues is probably more effective. you can write, speak march etc but local government is what directly affects lives more than parliament and you can influence that far more. the wastefulness is astonishing. our entire system is a joke

[lostalex]

yes.

[Kizzy]

No, you can't march... or protest, that would be an act of civil disobedience :nono:

We've had the vote ...well men for longer as it took a while to realise women can be democratic too, for around 100yrs democratic rights were added to via legislation.
However, there have been changes these rights are ever so sneakily, blink and you miss them flying through westminster changes that chip away at civil liberties.
Rights that took years and years to achieve are removed without consultation, how democratic is this?

[kirklancaster]

But we do actually make a difference. We decide the biggest issue of all in who governs us, not only that but we extend that right to every British citizen and also to a lot of people who are not here on a permanent basis like international students. We have regular elections at all levels, we have systems of accountability, we have means for the public to get much more involved in politics than they have been before. You could say its not a real democracy because there's only really two parties capable of governing, because we don't get a say on every issue, because politicians lie, they spin things, they go back on promises etc. etc. but those things can never be completely eradicated and it is all about trying to apply the best of democratic ideals in a practical and functional sense. And in general we make a very good job of that. I'm not saying we have no right to ever complain or that our system is perfect because that would be silly. But in general the UK is a decent conciliation of numerous different ideas and interests and we should be glad of that

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Thank GOD for a voice of intellectual reason.

[kirklancaster]

Britain is still a CHRISTIAN DEMOCRACY despite the best efforts of Secular Lefties and others, and of course Democracy is imperfect, and of course Christianity is flawed, and the reason they are so, is that MAN has corrupted the purity of both.

This being so, I for one, will always still elect to live in this Christian democracy any day, than in any of the countries where Communism, Islam, or Dictatorship, is the 'political system'.

Despite the hysterical claims of anti-Christians to the contrary, Christianity is not 'forced' upon any of our citizens – either by the state or by the church, and neither is it forced upon our children in any of our State schools or other centres of learning , and perhaps these anti-Christians are confusing Christian preachers and teachers with their hate-filled Islamic counterparts.

So then, what reason is there to wish to 'destroy' the historical link between Christianity and the State in this country, when the role of the church increasingly has no longer any input into our Constitution?

The answer to the above is that there are NO reasons, and because of this, Christianity-haters remind me of those Islamic Fundamentalist cretins who destroyed the priceless ancient artefacts; the 'Nineveh Winged Bull' and the 'God of Rozhan' in Mosul, Iraq, for no other reason that 'they were there and did not fit in with their own ideology', because Christianity-haters have the same mentality.

As for Democracy, Mario Puzo wrote in 'The Godfather', that; “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

Perfect or not, I for one, do not desire to live anywhere else in the world. However, in the knowledge that I have always had that there is; “something rotten in the state of Denmark”, I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system, rather than to try and change the system itself.

For the whingers and whiners who do not feel the same, then my personal message is CLEAR;

Do not DARE to try to change this Western Democratic Christian country which the rest of us love – if you do not like living here, then you are FREE to board the next plane to Syria or some other Middle Eastern country, and use what intelligence and talents you have acquired by complete accident and chance via Evolution, to reason with and try to change the 'men with guns' who rule there.

And 'Good Luck' with that.

[Kizzy]

I think it's well established that here is better than other places in the world, nobody is disputing that.
Nobody is suggesting Christianity is done away with, personally I can't see any christian values in the current government... therefore I can only conclude they are using the cover of the KJV which has been advocated by both the PM and the queen as a moral authority.
And in many respects it is, and yet they don't abide by it, it's a case of 'do as I say not as I do'.

The democracy we have at the moment is in a state of flux, as legislation is changed to ensure maximum compliance to the state and if you question the powers that be, demonstrate, protest, then you risk falling foul of the law when doing so.
This democracy is therefore becoming less and less 'perfect'.
“a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns”
They can, and a politician with a banker can steal much more, perfectly legally...
And the public bail out the banks, and institutions fail in their duty of care aided by the government as in historic abuse cases, and the public are the ones to pay making many a victim twice over.

Some governments are corrupt all the time,
all governments are corrupt some of the time,
But let's just not kid ourselves that ours at the moment couldn't be better, or that they exhibit the virtues they demand because they very much do not.

[Nedusa]

No, you can't march... or protest, that would be an act of civil disobedience :nono:

We've had the vote ...well men for longer as it took a while to realise women can be democratic too, for around 100yrs democratic rights were added to via legislation.
However, there have been changes these rights are ever so sneakily, blink and you miss them flying through westminster changes that chip away at civil liberties.
Rights that took years and years to achieve are removed without consultation, how democratic is this?

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[kirklancaster]

I think it's well established that here is better than other places in the world, nobody is disputing that.
Nobody is suggesting Christianity is done away with, personally I can't see any christian values in the current government... therefore I can only conclude they are using the cover of the KJV which has been advocated by both the PM and the queen as a moral authority.
And in many respects it is, and yet they don't abide by it, it's a case of 'do as I say not as I do'.

The democracy we have at the moment is in a state of flux, as legislation is changed to ensure maximum compliance to the state and if you question the powers that be, demonstrate, protest, then you risk falling foul of the law when doing so.
This democracy is therefore becoming less and less 'perfect'.
“a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns”
They can, and a politician with a banker can steal much more, perfectly legally...
And the public bail out the banks, and institutions fail in their duty of care aided by the government as in historic abuse cases, and the public are the ones to pay making many a victim twice over.

Some governments are corrupt all the time,
all governments are corrupt some of the time,
But let's just not kid ourselves that ours at the moment couldn't be better, or that they exhibit the virtues they demand because they very much do not.

Whilst I agree with some of the points you raise in this response, I do find other of your points totally redundant.

For example, considering Whitehall is the centre of Government and that Threadneedle Street is the location of The Bank of England, then I think that when I wrote:

1) "that neither Christianity or our Democracy is perfect."

2) "I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system"

3) “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

renders totally redundant your statements:

1) ...a politician with a banker can steal much more, perfectly legally... "

2) "But let's just not kid ourselves that ours (government) at the moment couldn't be better.."

Further; believe me, that I am not 'kidding' myself (and never have) about any of the corruption which has always been rife in both the Local Governments and Governments of this country in addition to the institutional and historic corruption in our Banking Systems, Judicial System, Benefits and Welfare Systems and Taxation systems, and just about every other system and institution we have.

But I still maintain that the way forward is not to try to replace Christianity as our 'State' Religion, nor to seek to dismantle our Democracy - as some people wish - but to change the people who hold office and have the authority in all our institutions, and to fight the corruption 'en masse until we have men of integrity in such positions.

I genuinely understand the points you make about the stripping away of our historic liberties and rights by stealth, but there is a way to combat and defeat those who are responsible - we did it with the 'Poll Tax' and we can all do it again.

[DemolitionRed]

Nobody has yet mentioned the City of London which is a huge pocket of resistance to democracy. Its an institution that dates back many hundreds of years and its still entrenched in its practices and privileges. It has its own lobbyist who sits next to the Speaker in the House of Commons. Surely if we have a city/corporation which has its own internal vote and carries such huge influence over parliamentary financial decisions, we can't live in a democracy? When it comes to diversifying the British economy towards things like manufacturing and global warming, the City of London digs its heels in.

Chatham House rule over many of the decisions and new policy that is presently made in Parliament and Chatham House btw is all off the record. Its a place where statements, agreements and promises made on behalf of the British people are kept hidden from us.

The last time I looked, there were 134 Tory MPs employed within the financial section of the City and some of those MPs are leading financiers within the City. Lord Brittan, former Conservative home secretary is vice chairman for UBS investment bank and still advises government on trade. Tim Luke, once senior advisor to Cameron is now one of the big guys in Barclays Capital and Ivon Rogers was another senior in Barclays Capital and Citigroup before becoming Cameron's Advisor

The question is, do we really want people like this to have huge political influence? because whilst representing the nation of Britain, their only real interest is protecting their casino operation and their indulgent financial independence.

Until the City of London surrender their economic power over Britain they will remain a stain on British democracy.

[Kizzy]

Whilst I agree with some of the points you raise in this response, I do find other of your points totally redundant.

For example, considering Whitehall is the centre of Government and that Threadneedle Street is the location of The Bank of England, then I think that when I wrote:

1) "that neither Christianity or our Democracy is perfect."

2) "I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system"

3) “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

renders totally redundant your statements:

1) ...a politician with a banker can steal much more, perfectly legally... "

2) "But let's just not kid ourselves that ours (government) at the moment couldn't be better.."

Further; believe me, that I am not 'kidding' myself (and never have) about any of the corruption which has always been rife in both the Local Governments and Governments of this country in addition to the institutional and historic corruption in our Banking Systems, Judicial System, Benefits and Welfare Systems and Taxation systems, and just about every other system and institution we have.

But I still maintain that the way forward is not to try to replace Christianity as our 'State' Religion, nor to seek to dismantle our Democracy - as some people wish - but to change the people who hold office and have the authority in all our institutions, and to fight the corruption 'en masse until we have men of integrity in such positions.

I genuinely understand the points you make about the stripping away of our historic liberties and rights by stealth, but there is a way to combat and defeat those who are responsible - we did it with the 'Poll Tax' and we can all do it again.

Whilst you labour to attempt to define my opinion as redundant may I remind you that it is simply my opinion and you are under no obligation to agree to it.

[Kizzy]

Nobody has yet mentioned the City of London which is a huge pocket of resistance to democracy. Its an institution that dates back many hundreds of years and its still entrenched in its practices and privileges. It has its own lobbyist who sits next to the Speaker in the House of Commons. Surely if we have a city/corporation which has its own internal vote and carries such huge influence over parliamentary financial decisions, we can't live in a democracy? When it comes to diversifying the British economy towards things like manufacturing and global warming, the City of London digs its heels in.

Chatham House rule over many of the decisions and new policy that is presently made in Parliament and Chatham House btw is all off the record. Its a place where statements, agreements and promises made on behalf of the British people are kept hidden from us.

The last time I looked, there were 134 Tory MPs employed within the financial section of the City and some of those MPs are leading financiers within the City. Lord Brittan, former Conservative home secretary is vice chairman for UBS investment bank and still advises government on trade. Tim Luke, once senior advisor to Cameron is now one of the big guys in Barclays Capital and Ivon Rogers was another senior in Barclays Capital and Citigroup before becoming Cameron's Advisor

The question is, do we really want people like this to have huge political influence? because whilst representing the nation of Britain, their only real interest is protecting their casino operation and their indulgent financial independence.

Until the City of London surrender their economic power over Britain they will remain a stain on British democracy.

Well well, never a chance of any democratic vote if a significant percentage the MPs and the lords are stool pigeons for the banks. They'll block any legislation due to a conflict of interest how ethical is that in a democracy?

[DemolitionRed]

Well well, never a chance of any democratic vote if a significant percentage the MPs and the lords are stool pigeons for the banks. They'll block any legislation due to a conflict of interest how ethical is that in a democracy?

Exactly. The saying, "better the devil you know than the devil you don't" is just not true when it comes to democracy!

[Niamh.]

What would the alternative be though for this side of the world?

[kirklancaster]

Whilst you labour to attempt to define my opinion as redundant may I remind you that it is simply my opinion and you are under no obligation to agree to it.

No, you obviously labour to understand my posts - despite the lucidity with which I write.

I clearly did not attempt to define your post or your opinion as redundant - merely the relevant parts of it which clearly were, and which I clearly defined. The rest of your post I actually said that I "agreed with" and "genuinely understood" and I even underscored the word genuinely.

I only took you off my ignore list because despite us agreeing to ignore each other's posts you breached that agreement by responding to one of my posts and obviously addressing that response to me, even though you did not use my name. What's more, my post which you responded to was neither directly addressed to, or directed at you - and still I answered your response very civilly and with clarity as I always do, but already you are starting again with the misrepresentation and the thinly veiled edge in your response so I see that taking you off my ignore list was a great mistake.

Now before you report this innocuous and reasoned response and have it removed - I will ask you again not to respond to my posts and quote them and to please put me on your ignore list and I will immediately put you back on mine.

Thank you.

[kirklancaster]

What would the alternative be though for this side of the world?

You saved me asking the identical question Niamh. I am eager to read the answer.

[Niamh.]

No, you obviously labour to understand my posts - despite the lucidity with which I write.

I clearly did not attempt to define your post or your opinion as redundant - merely the relevant parts of it which clearly were, and which I clearly defined. The rest of your post I actually said that I "agreed with" and "genuinely understood" and I even underscored the word genuinely.

I only took you off my ignore list because despite us agreeing to ignore each other's posts you breached that agreement by responding to one of my posts and obviously addressing that response to me, even though you did not use my name. What's more, my post which you responded to was neither directly addressed to, or directed at you - and still I answered your response very civilly and with clarity as I always do, but already you are starting again with the misrepresentation and the thinly veiled edge in your response so I see that taking you off my ignore list was a great mistake.

Now before you report this innocuous and reasoned response and have it removed - I will ask you again not to respond to my posts and quote them and to please put me on your ignore list and I will immediately put you back on mine.

Thank you.

Kirk, Kizzy didn't quote your post (so i don't know how you saw her post if you had her on ignore?) But even if she had, this is the serious debate section, everyone is perfectly entitled to quote anyone they wish, if they want to make a point. You of course, are under no obligation to respond to that post.

[bots]

Democracy is just a vision that counties aspire to. There is not a single country in the world that truely practices democracy. Among the worst offenders are the USA and UK who maintain they have wonderful democracies when they are nothing of the sort.

Democracy is a matter of degree. Each country practices democracy as it best fits their needs and objectives. It truely angers me when the USA and UK set themselves up as the standard bearers of democracy when their corruption is hidden from view. At least with the likes of Russia, there is no pretence, everyone knows what they are dealing with.

[kirklancaster]

Kirk, Kizzy didn't quote your post (so i don't know how you saw her post if you had her on ignore?) But even if she had, this is the serious debate section, everyone is perfectly entitled to quote anyone they wish, if they want to make a point. You of course, are under no obligation to respond to that post.

Thank you Niamh.

I often browse Tibb without logging in and that's when I saw Kizzy's post which clearly - because of what she writes and comments upon - was a response to my post. She did actually quote directly from my post with "Lawyers with briefcases etc", and the fact that I posted at 8.43 am and then Kizzy posted directly after my post at 9.16 am is also telling.

But the above is not the problem Niamh. What is the problem is that although I responded to Kizzy's response, civilly and reasonably, her reply was nothing more than a deliberate misrepresentation of my response and that very thing is what caused most of the trouble between us before - something I do not wish to undergo again.

Anyone checking what I wrote against what Kizzy alleges what I wrote will clearly see just what I am talking about.

I realise that this is the Serious Debate section Niamh and that everyone is perfectly entitled to quote anyone they wish, if they want to make a point, but continual misrepresentation of what one has said in a post is not debate at all, and neither is it fair.

As for me being under no obligation to respond to that post, I am compelled to respond to any post which misrepresents what I have said, if only to redress the misrepresentation, because no one likes to be falsely quoted - especially on a Serious Debate section.

Anyway, I am not falling out with anyone, merely politely and reasonably requesting someone who seems incapable of understanding what I write and who therefore continually misrepresents me, to please put me on her ignore list and refrain from quoting my posts in the interests of forum harmony and I will reciprocate.

I do not believe that I am asking too much or that I am wrong to ask.

[Kizzy]

I used 1 sentence from your post as a point of reference, if you don't like it that's your issue.
As said if it is used in context with the subject there should be no problem with me doing this, if you want to ignore me that's fine.
I will continue to comment on the topic as I see fit.

[DemolitionRed]

What would the alternative be though for this side of the world?

Good question! Its wise to take notice of history because nothing is ever permanent. Change doesn't happen through good will and generosity but through struggle and sacrifice, but as far as our illusionary democracy where hundreds and thousands of people have to queue to eat food from food banks or live under the shame of not having work and being on benefits, they are not yet ready for the fight.

Its shameful to think that over a thousand individuals worth over £500 billion have such huge influence on how British society is structured. The biggest fear for ruling class Britain is a revolution and this is why political marches are so heavily constrained. A democratic revolution is long overdue.

Britain should be a country run by the people who keep it ticking and not by those with the wealthiest backers. A true democracy is possible but only if a broad enough section of our society become confident enough and inspired enough about its realization.

[Niamh.]

Kirk, your post is still there so it really doesn't matter whether or not you feel like someone has misrepresented what you wrote or not, everyone can read your post for themselves, they don't need to just take Kizzys (or whoevers) word for it. Again if you don't want to interact with a forum member, don't reply to their posts, if you feel their posts are baiting or breaking forum rules, then report it. Simple.

[Niamh.]

Good question! Its wise to take notice of history because nothing is ever permanent. Change doesn't happen through good will and generosity but through struggle and sacrifice, but as far as our illusionary democracy where hundreds and thousands of people have to queue to eat food from food banks or live under the shame of not having work and being on benefits, they are not yet ready for the fight.

Its shameful to think that over a thousand individuals worth over £500 billion have such huge influence on how British society is structured. The biggest fear for ruling class Britain is a revolution and this is why political marches are so heavily constrained. A democratic revolution is long overdue.

Britain should be a country run by the people who keep it ticking and not by those with the wealthiest backers. A true democracy is possible but only if a broad enough section of our society become confident enough and inspired enough about its realization.

mmhhmm I totally agree with all that DR. Could Russell Brand be the man to inspire and lead this revolution? I love the Trews :laugh:

[Kizzy]

That could suggest there was something worthy of reporting and there wasn't, I objected to my thoughts being referred to as redundant is all.
I make no apology for that.

[Niamh.]

That could suggest there was something worthy of reporting and there wasn't, I objected to my thoughts being referred to as redundant is all.
I make no apology for that.

No. I was just telling him if he felt a post was breaking rules report it and we'll deal with it if it is.

[Livia]

Democracy is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Like Capitalism. It should not be treated as the most virtuous system or as the end game of civilisation like it often is. It is however a good foundation which befits our country and most of the world. Of course you will ever truly get total democracy where all of society decides on every single decision because that would be ridiculous, but we have utilised the idea of democracy as best we can and integrated it into an effective and efficient way to govern. As much as we like to beat on our own democracy it is the envy of much of the world and is very successful.

Not all countries will agree of course that the Western model is best for them. IMO it's a failure of Western policy that we took the attitude that every other country in the world wants to be like us, even if they don't know it yet. Surely deep down everyone wants a Western style democracy right? But of course they don't. And it's why I'm always wary of global intervention because it carries a certain arrogance that we know best and should impose that on everyone else. Maybe democracy is just not tenable in some countries. In a lot of the Middle East, where nations are melting pots of ethnic and religious tension, it's hard to see how a secular and democratic government can emerge from all that while also trying to keep a lid on it. 'Democracy' carries such saintly connotations in this day that its a hard thing to argue against, but it is not the ultimate and infallible ideal that it can often be made out to be

Excellent post MTVN. I have nothing to add.

[kirklancaster]

That could suggest there was something worthy of reporting and there wasn't, I objected to my thoughts being referred to as redundant is all.
I make no apology for that.

As everyone on here has a right to respond, I will respond:

I object to you continually misrepresenting what I write "is all".

[DemolitionRed]

mmhhmm I totally agree with all that DR. Could Russell Brand be the man to inspire and lead this revolution? I love the Trews :laugh:

Me too, but I love his nuttiness. :)

[Kizzy]

mmhhmm I totally agree with all that DR. Could Russell Brand be the man to inspire and lead this revolution? I love the Trews :laugh:

I totally agree with DR, and Russel is great thank god for his trews :D
I think there are factors in place to reduce the possibility of a revolt, keeping the electorate subdued and submissive via a mix of poor education, legislation and debt.

[kirklancaster]

*slits wrists*

:joker::joker::joker:

[Niamh.]

I totally agree with DR, and Russel is great thank god for his trews :D
I think there are factors in place to reduce the possibility of a revolt, keeping the electorate subdued and submissive via a mix of poor education, legislation and debt.

Yeah, same over here too

[MessiahCarey]

Communism >>> Democracy/Capitalism

[MessiahCarey]

Britain is still a CHRISTIAN DEMOCRACY despite the best efforts of Secular Lefties and others, and of course Democracy is imperfect, and of course Christianity is flawed, and the reason they are so, is that MAN has corrupted the purity of both.

This being so, I for one, will always still elect to live in this Christian democracy any day, than in any of the countries where Communism, Islam, or Dictatorship, is the 'political system'.

Despite the hysterical claims of anti-Christians to the contrary, Christianity is not 'forced' upon any of our citizens – either by the state or by the church, and neither is it forced upon our children in any of our State schools or other centres of learning , and perhaps these anti-Christians are confusing Christian preachers and teachers with their hate-filled Islamic counterparts.

So then, what reason is there to wish to 'destroy' the historical link between Christianity and the State in this country, when the role of the church increasingly has no longer any input into our Constitution?

The answer to the above is that there are NO reasons, and because of this, Christianity-haters remind me of those Islamic Fundamentalist cretins who destroyed the priceless ancient artefacts; the 'Nineveh Winged Bull' and the 'God of Rozhan' in Mosul, Iraq, for no other reason that 'they were there and did not fit in with their own ideology', because Christianity-haters have the same mentality.

As for Democracy, Mario Puzo wrote in 'The Godfather', that; “a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more money than a hundred men with guns” and from politicians to heads of corporations, this is true of all men in authority not just lawyers. Which is exactly why our Democracy has never been, and still isn't, 'perfect'.

Perfect or not, I for one, do not desire to live anywhere else in the world. However, in the knowledge that I have always had that there is; “something rotten in the state of Denmark”, I will continue to use any intelligence and talents that GOD has blessed me with, and utilise any of the many freedoms which this great country has afforded me - including my vote - to try to CHANGE the 'men with briefcases' in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street who corrupt the system, rather than to try and change the system itself.

For the whingers and whiners who do not feel the same, then my personal message is CLEAR;

Do not DARE to try to change this Western Democratic Christian country which the rest of us love – if you do not like living here, then you are FREE to board the next plane to Syria or some other Middle Eastern country, and use what intelligence and talents you have acquired by complete accident and chance via Evolution, to reason with and try to change the 'men with guns' who rule there.

And 'Good Luck' with that.

You are a supporter and believer in democracy yet want people who don't agree with it to leave the western world and go to the Middle East?

:joker:

Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians

There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Bsa-religion-question.svg/325px-Bsa-religion-question.svg.png

[kirklancaster]

I used 1 sentence from your post as a point of reference, if you don't like it that's your issue.
As said if it is used in context with the subject there should be no problem with me doing this, if you want to ignore me that's fine.
I will continue to comment on the topic as I see fit.

:facepalm: I have no issue with anyone using any parts of any of my posts "as a point of reference", and nowhere have I said that I did. So why do you falsely infer that I have?

You continue to comment on what you want and I will do the same.

I will also remonstrate with you when you continue to deceitfully misrepresent what I have written -- as I see fit.

[Kizzy]

I've lost patience, keep derailing the thread if you wish, I won't be responding again.

[Kizzy]

You are a supporter and believer in democracy yet want people who don't agree with it to leave the western world and go to the Middle East?

:joker:

Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians

There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Bsa-religion-question.svg/325px-Bsa-religion-question.svg.png

That's a very interesting statistic.

[kirklancaster]

You are a supporter and believer in democracy yet want people who don't agree with it to leave the western world and go to the Middle East?

:joker:

Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians

There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Bsa-religion-question.svg/325px-Bsa-religion-question.svg.png

Can you read correctly?

I did not state that I wanted anyone who didn't agree with our democracy to leave the western world and go to the Middle East - I actually said that those who wish to try to change this Western Democratic Christian country which the rest of us love, and those who do not like living here are FREE to board the next plane to Syria or some other Middle Eastern country.

There is a vast difference in meaning between what you state that I said and what I actually did say, but hey - don't let not being factual when quoting my posts stop you, welcome to the forum you will do well on here.

As for "Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians" and "There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties" - it all depends upon which internet source you care to refer to for your statistics.

However, once again, I never said that this was a 'Christian Nation', I said that this was a Christian Democracy, and because Christianity is still the largest religion in the UK, and as Christianity is still officially the State Religion, then I am correct in my statement.

[MessiahCarey]

Can you read correctly?

I did not state that I wanted anyone who didn't agree with our democracy to leave the western world and go to the Middle East - I actually said that those who wish to try to change this Western Democratic Christian country which the rest of us love, and those who do not like living here are FREE to board the next plane to Syria or some other Middle Eastern country.

There is a vast difference in meaning between what you state that I said and what I actually did say, but hey - don't let not being factual when quoting my posts stop you, welcome to the forum you will do well on here.

As for "Also the UK is no longer a Christian nation since there are more non religious people here than Christians" and "There have been more non religious people than Christians since the early noughties" - it all depends upon which internet source you care to refer to for your statistics.

However, once again, I never said that this was a 'Christian Nation', I said that this was a Christian Democracy, and because Christianity is still the largest religion in the UK, and as Christianity is still officially the State Religion, then I am correct in my statement.

Why do you keep acting like you the voice of the GP? You have no idea how many people "love" or do not "love" this "christian democracy"

The facts are that this "christian democracy" is failing people who aren't wealthy or do not have power, so clearly it isn't working and NEEDS to be changed

How can we be a christian democracy when the MAJORITY of people in the UK aren't christian?

:joker:

[Kizzy]

What is immediately clear is that Anglicanism is still a significant part of British society. About one third of the population identify as "C of E" or "Anglican", when asked what their religion is.'

http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2014/31-january/features/features/time-to-get-serious
Firstly we see that only 1 third of the whole of the UK subscribes to the church as advocated by our Anglican democracy, and added to that the Anglican church in modern time I feel is ashamed of the links it has with the current politics in the UK.
As I said earlier I wouldn't say that the government exhibit Christian values and it would seem the Anglican church feel the same.

C of E letter urging people to vote on 7 May laments ‘growing appetite to exploit grievances, find scapegoats and create barriers between people and nations’
The Church of England has launched a strongly worded attack on Britain’s political culture, criticising politicians of all parties for offering only “sterile arguments” that are likely to make voters more apathetic and cynical in the runup to the general election.

In an unprecedented intervention, the church’s bishops have published a joint open letter warning that “our democracy is failing” and attacking the “growing appetite to exploit grievances” and “find scapegoats” in society. They call for “a fresh moral vision of the kind of country we want to be”.

It is the first time the bishops have intervened in this way before a general election, but one said the church had felt the need to counter the “sex appeal” of people such as Russell Brand, who have argued that people should disengage from Westminster politics.

While the bishops insist the letter is not targeted at any party in particular and criticise successive administrations for political failings, the 52-page document can be read as an indirect criticism of the government’s welfare policies.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/17/church-of-england-calls-for-fresh-moral-vision-in-british-politics

[kirklancaster]

Why do you keep acting like you the voice of the GP? You have no idea how many people "love" or do not "love" this "christian democracy"

The facts are that this "christian democracy" is failing people who aren't wealthy or do not have power, so clearly it isn't working and NEEDS to be changed

How can we be a christian democracy when the MAJORITY of people in the UK aren't christian?

:joker:

I don't act like I'm anyone's voice but my own. But are you seriously suggesting that the majority of the General Population of the UK do not love this country as it is? And I do not mean that they do not wish to see changes but that they do not wish to see either Christianity or Democracy go like some do.

You say that this 'Christian Democracy' is failing people and needs to be changed, but it is not 'Christianity' who is failing people, nor 'Democracy' - just the politicians who are inept, incapable, corrupt and insensitive.

Can I ask what do you personally propose that we do to 'change' it?

I have already correctly illustrated why we are a 'Christian Democracy' even if your figures are correct - which is not guaranteed given that different internet sources give conflicting information.

Incidentally, it is an impossibility for everyone in the 'GP' to have 'wealth and power'. In fact, if all the wealth in the UK was taken - communist style - and shared out equally between all the UK's population - I would bet you every penny I have that within a relatively short period, most of that money would end up back in the pockets of the rich and powerful.

Similarly, if 90% of the 'GP' were given 'power' most would not know what the hell to do with it, while others would become more greedy and selfish and uncaring than those who have power now.