'Paedophilic interest is natural and normal for human males'

[Josy]

The article from the telegraph is from last year I think but I have only just read it


"Paedophilic interest is natural and normal for human males,” said the presentation. “At least a sizeable minority of normal males would like to have sex with children … Normal males are aroused by children.”

Some yellowing tract from the Seventies or early Eighties, era of abusive celebrities and the infamous PIE, the Paedophile Information Exchange? No. Anonymous commenters on some underground website? No again.

The statement that paedophilia is “natural and normal” was made not three decades ago but last July. It was made not in private but as one of the central claims of an academic presentation delivered, at the invitation of the organisers, to many of the key experts in the field at a conference held by the University of Cambridge.

Other presentations included “Liberating the paedophile: a discursive analysis,” and “Danger and difference: the stakes of hebephilia.”

Hebephilia is the sexual preference for children in early puberty, typically 11 to 14-year-olds.

Another attendee, and enthusiastic participant from the floor, was one Tom O’Carroll, a multiple child sex offender, long-time campaigner for the legalisation of sex with children and former head of the Paedophile Information Exchange. “Wonderful!” he wrote on his blog afterwards. “It was a rare few days when I could feel relatively popular!”

Last week, after the conviction of Rolf Harris, the report into Jimmy Savile and claims of an establishment cover-up to protect a sex-offending minister in Margaret Thatcher’s Cabinet, Britain went into a convulsion of anxiety about child abuse in the Eighties. But unnoticed amid the furore is a much more current threat: attempts, right now, in parts of the academic establishment to push the boundaries on the acceptability of child sex.



There is more at the link here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10948796/Paedophilia-is-natural-and-normal-for-males.html

I find articles like this or more so the studies/presentations they discuss are trying to spoon feed the public and desensitize them into believing that this appalling disgusting behaviour that's rife amongst people in power is natural and ok to do. They can **** right off with this **** tbh.

[Niamh.]

Natural and normal? And what about the victims? Do they not count?

[Glenn.]

I'm not even going to bother reading the link. I see enough from the excerpt.

It's pretty disgusting that this was allowed to see the light of day let alone there being a presentation on it.

[smudgie]

Normal....what is this world coming to.

It's normal to protect our kids, surely.

[Ninastar]

Pretty much agree with all thats been said really. I normally just roll my eyes at these articles and don't bother.

[Northern Monkey]

NO!It is NOT normal.As far as this article goes,I think if we are a country of free speech then yes we should be able to discuss things like this and it may help us understand what goes on in these 'peoples' minds.I don't understand how any 'legitimate' study could come up with that conclusion though.If it was normal then most men would think like that,Which they most certainly don't.

[Kizzy]

We were discussing this in a thread last year I think, I posted some info on this that seemed to suggest the rules were being relaxed... Are we surprised now knowing that there were predatory peadophile rings active within westminter?

[Kyle]

We were discussing this in a thread last year I think, I posted some info on this that seemed to suggest the rules were being relaxed... Are we surprised now knowing that there were predatory peadophile rings active within westminter?

I'm actually a little worried about 'if' it was all of a sudden legal how many people would actually partake in buggery with children. I thought this kind of thing was rare but it seems wherever people think they can reasonably get away with it's endemic. :shrug:

[Vicky.]

Normal or not (normal..really? :umm2: ), the penalty should be having their dick chopped off without anesthetic tbh. Would have FAR fewer re-offenders

[Calderyon]

Disgusting and disturbing.

But what´s equally wrong is that one of the biggest newspapers in the UK is even publishing and giving light to this story, which is incredibly irresponsible and just plain wrong.

They are basically almost endorsing this kind of thing to happen more.

[Kazanne]

Paedophiles,making excuses for paedophiles,most normal people know it's wrong and will have nothing to do with condoning this article,disgusting really that a newspaper even printed it.

[kirklancaster]

I'm not diverting this thread but this madness comes on top of Muslim Hate Clerics being invited to address audiences in our universities, and it's time now that the government took a hard look at some of our academics and the seats of learning where they are employed.

This bile is offensive and dangerous and - like Islamic Hate speeches - is outside the parameters of 'Free Speech'.

WTF is this country coming to, when some of our most learned are openly trying to insert the thin edge of a wedge into our moral perception to gradually crack it open and sanitize this sick evil and make it acceptable? Has society degenerated so much that these paedophiles now actually feel SECURE coming out of their filthy closets to spew such sick opinions with impunity?

[Samuel.]

Being solely attracted to children makes someone a monster? Absolutely not.

Acting upon those attractions is the vital difference and the two shouldn't be lumped together in any circumstance.

The attitude people have towards paedophiles is frightening, emotive and in a lot of cases harmful. If someone has paedophilic thoughts, why on earth would they reach out for help. It'd result in being shamed, villified and their life potentially ruined because of the completely unhelpful attitude of mob-like anger this country shows at every opportunity.

I really hope ten, twenty years down the line we can start approaching the topic sensibly without throwing around the word "monster".

[Samuel.]

"Finally, of course, academic inquiry is supposed to question conventional wisdom and to deal rigorously with the evidence, whether or not the conclusions it leads you to are popular."

Important to remember.

[jennyjuniper]

I'll bet they didn't accept comments from children and young people who have been abused at this 'forum'. It's disgusting that any acedemic body could give even a glimmer of 'respectibility' and endorsement to these vile individuals.
It's not normal and never will be in a sane world.

[DemolitionRed]

I think its a dangerously misleading article. No, lets not ever allow paedophilia to have an excuse.

[Livia]

What a damning indictment of all men. Outrageous...

[Northern Monkey]

What a damning indictment of all men. Outrageous...

I know.I'm not one to be easily offended at all but this offends me as a man.

[lily.]

I'm not diverting this thread but this madness comes on top of Muslim Hate Clerics being invited to address audiences in our universities, and it's time now that the government took a hard look at some of our academics and the seats of learning where they are employed.

This bile is offensive and dangerous and - like Islamic Hate speeches - is outside the parameters of 'Free Speech'.

WTF is this country coming to, when some of our most learned are openly trying to insert the thin edge of a wedge into our moral perception to gradually crack it open and sanitize this sick evil and make it acceptable? Has society degenerated so much that these paedophiles now actually feel SECURE coming out of their filthy closets to spew such sick opinions with impunity?

I agree with this tbh.

[Kizzy]

The article from the telegraph is from last year I think but I have only just read it



There is more at the link here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10948796/Paedophilia-is-natural-and-normal-for-males.html

I find articles like this or more so the studies/presentations they discuss are trying to spoon feed the public and desensitize them into believing that this appalling disgusting behaviour that's rife amongst people in power is natural and ok to do. They can **** right off with this **** tbh.

I agree with this it's being drip fed to us ever so subtly that men who target under aged girls are not odd.. the girls are increasingly being blamed for men assauting them, the most recent being a teacher iirc! :/

[Mystic Mock]

Being solely attracted to children makes someone a monster? Absolutely not.

Acting upon those attractions is the vital difference and the two shouldn't be lumped together in any circumstance.

The attitude people have towards paedophiles is frightening, emotive and in a lot of cases harmful. If someone has paedophilic thoughts, why on earth would they reach out for help. It'd result in being shamed, villified and their life potentially ruined because of the completely unhelpful attitude of mob-like anger this country shows at every opportunity.

I really hope ten, twenty years down the line we can start approaching the topic sensibly without throwing around the word "monster".

I know some will call you an looney left for this post, or they'll think it at least, but I agree with you.

Not everybody with paedophile thoughts actually acts out on it, but how can they get help when everybody looks down on them all as the same? Imo there should be clinics available to the ones that haven't acted on it and they get all the help that they can get.

The ones that have acted on it should be either killed, or throw away the key as they're never gonna stop re-offending.

[Nedusa]

Is it April 1st today.....????

[Smithy]

Being solely attracted to children makes someone a monster? Absolutely not.

Acting upon those attractions is the vital difference and the two shouldn't be lumped together in any circumstance.

The attitude people have towards paedophiles is frightening, emotive and in a lot of cases harmful. If someone has paedophilic thoughts, why on earth would they reach out for help. It'd result in being shamed, villified and their life potentially ruined because of the completely unhelpful attitude of mob-like anger this country shows at every opportunity.

I really hope ten, twenty years down the line we can start approaching the topic sensibly without throwing around the word "monster".

I agree with this tbh, I remember watching a doc on channel 4 last year about a guy who was attracted to children (he couldn't help it) but he said he would never act upon it, that doesn't make him a monster imo

[Kizzy]

That's not really the reason for the topic though, the article suggests all men who feel this way are normal and that's just not true :/
It's against the law, it's far from normal as the two parties can never be consensual.

[JoshBB]

that absolutely is not normal.

an 11-14 year old is not mature enough to consent to sex with an adult, take that from someone who just about fits into that bracket.

[joeysteele]

Paedophiles,making excuses for paedophiles,most normal people know it's wrong and will have nothing to do with condoning this article,disgusting really that a newspaper even printed it.

Absolutely, well said Kazanne.

[Mystic Mock]

Why did a Newspaper actually print this story? Are they that desperate to get sales that they had to stoop to a new low?

[Northern Monkey]

Why did a Newspaper actually print this story? Are they that desperate to get sales that they had to stoop to a new low?
Seems like it.Thinking about it.This story is not only idiotic but even though most people won't believe it at all.Some people might.This could colour their view and trust in male teachers,child minders,kids doctors etc....
It is quite an irresponsible thing to print.

[MTVN]

A newspapers duty is to report. They haven't made these people and this presentation up, and its not a view that they have fabricated for shock value. This conference really happened, there really was a coming together of people to discuss this and there really are people who hold these views. That won't get wished away by newspapers refusing to print anything about it.

[Nedusa]

Wow......shocking to say the least

Have we taken the torch of Liberalism to new heights ?

It's not the fact that we are discussing this subject but more the standpoint from which the debate is being held.

the default position in my opinion is set in stone, it is unmovable an arguable , the normal human position is not to engage in sex with pre pubescent children , end off...

This type of "debate" is dangerous as it lends the smallest veneer of credibility to something that has no moral defence under any circumstances......

[Niamh.]

Wow......shocking to say the least

Have we taken the torch of Liberalism to new heights ?

It's not the fact that we are discussing this subject but more the standpoint from which the debate is being held.

the default position in my opinion is set in stone, it is unmovable an arguable , the normal human position is not to engage in sex with pre pubescent children , end off...

This type of "debate" is dangerous as it lends the smallest veneer of credibility to something that has no moral defence under any circumstances......

Indeed. Anything that has an innocent victim is not "normal" . I mean it's like saying stealing is normal because lots of people want stuff they can't afford so it's normal for them to steal it........no it's a crime, it's not OK and it's not normal

[Kyle]

Wow......shocking to say the least

Have we taken the torch of Liberalism to new heights ?

I hardly think liberalism is in any danger of attempting to legalise pedophilia and animal buggery Nedusa. :laugh:

[Nedusa]

I hardly think liberalism is in any danger of attempting to legalise pedophilia and animal buggery Nedusa. :laugh:

Maybe Not..........but you get the point I was trying to make.:laugh:

[Kyle]

Maybe Not..........but you get the point I was trying to make.:laugh:

Loud and clear Chiana :wink:

[Nedusa]

Loud and clear Chiana :wink:

Ugh....oh

Another Farscape Fan..................:wavey::wavey:

[JoshBB]

Liberals do not condone pedophilia Nedusa, more the opposite, since a child cannot consent to sex with an adult given that they are not old enough to make a mature decision. That would infringe their sexual rights given that it is essentially rape if you cannot give consent.

[Marsh.]

Tom O’Carroll, a multiple child sex offender, long-time campaigner for the legalisation of sex with children

:umm2:

[Niamh.]

^ How can you legislate for sex with children? How can you make it legal to abuse or rape someone? That's crazy

[Marsh.]

Exactly, it's the same as asking for the legalisation of rape. :umm2:

Stop the world I want to get off.

[Z]

I think "naturally occurring" would be less inflammatory than "natural" or "normal" - some people develop into adulthood with an attraction to children. We can be as offended as we like about it, it doesn't mean it's not true. Paedophilia is one of the last taboos in our society that people are just not willing to have the conversation about for many reasons, but I think it's important to not immediately grab the pitchforks when there are paedophiles brave enough to speak out publicly. Yes, brave. Terrible though it may be that there are people who are attracted to children, it takes a lot of bravery to admit that to anyone and I'd argue that paedophilia is in the same arena as alcoholism, depression and other forms of addictive behaviour - if you identify with a destructive behaviour, you can only do your best to spend your life not succumbing to that behaviour. You could argue that the ripple effect from any of those behaviours is as savage as the next one - but the difference is that paedophilia is something we legislate against. No one puts alcoholics in jail for ruining their lives and the lives of those around them; but we arrest paedophiles for raping children. Quite rightly too - I think a significant part of the psychology behind paedophilia must stem from childhood abuse, it's a cycle of abuse after all.

However, paedophiles are people too. They have jobs and families and friends and hobbies and it's kind of awful that someone can be branded a paedophile and be stripped of their humanity in the process - if we can better understand why paedophiles come to be and why they offend, we can better understand how to protect children in the future. Paedophilia is naturally occurring because it's in some peoples' nature to be paedophilic. That's just who they are. It must be a horrible kind of torment to know that you'd be despised if anyone ever knew about your attractions. You might never have a family because you're terrified that you'd offend against your own child; you might never hold down a normal relationship because you're scared of having kids or you're not sexually satisfied or you're terrified that if you get close to anyone, they'll find out. I just think there needs to be some understanding in the other corner of this debate. It's hard to know how to feel about proud paedophiles but I suppose I commend them in some way, it can't be easy to live with yourself.

[lily.]

paedophiles are people too

http://i.qkme.me/2rke.jpg

[Samuel.]

I think "naturally occurring" would be less inflammatory than "natural" or "normal" - some people develop into adulthood with an attraction to children. We can be as offended as we like about it, it doesn't mean it's not true. Paedophilia is one of the last taboos in our society that people are just not willing to have the conversation about for many reasons, but I think it's important to not immediately grab the pitchforks when there are paedophiles brave enough to speak out publicly. Yes, brave. Terrible though it may be that there are people who are attracted to children, it takes a lot of bravery to admit that to anyone and I'd argue that paedophilia is in the same arena as alcoholism, depression and other forms of addictive behaviour - if you identify with a destructive behaviour, you can only do your best to spend your life not succumbing to that behaviour. You could argue that the ripple effect from any of those behaviours is as savage as the next one - but the difference is that paedophilia is something we legislate against. No one puts alcoholics in jail for ruining their lives and the lives of those around them; but we arrest paedophiles for raping children. Quite rightly too - I think a significant part of the psychology behind paedophilia must stem from childhood abuse, it's a cycle of abuse after all.

However, paedophiles are people too. They have jobs and families and friends and hobbies and it's kind of awful that someone can be branded a paedophile and be stripped of their humanity in the process - if we can better understand why paedophiles come to be and why they offend, we can better understand how to protect children in the future. Paedophilia is naturally occurring because it's in some peoples' nature to be paedophilic. That's just who they are. It must be a horrible kind of torment to know that you'd be despised if anyone ever knew about your attractions. You might never have a family because you're terrified that you'd offend against your own child; you might never hold down a normal relationship because you're scared of having kids or you're not sexually satisfied or you're terrified that if you get close to anyone, they'll find out. I just think there needs to be some understanding in the other corner of this debate. It's hard to know how to feel about proud paedophiles but I suppose I commend them in some way, it can't be easy to live with yourself.

Fantastic post. Essentially what I was getting at, put a lot more eloquently.

[Shaun]

Greg :clap2: and Samuel :clap2:

[Kizzy]

I think "naturally occurring" would be less inflammatory than "natural" or "normal" - some people develop into adulthood with an attraction to children. We can be as offended as we like about it, it doesn't mean it's not true. Paedophilia is one of the last taboos in our society that people are just not willing to have the conversation about for many reasons, but I think it's important to not immediately grab the pitchforks when there are paedophiles brave enough to speak out publicly. Yes, brave. Terrible though it may be that there are people who are attracted to children, it takes a lot of bravery to admit that to anyone and I'd argue that paedophilia is in the same arena as alcoholism, depression and other forms of addictive behaviour - if you identify with a destructive behaviour, you can only do your best to spend your life not succumbing to that behaviour. You could argue that the ripple effect from any of those behaviours is as savage as the next one - but the difference is that paedophilia is something we legislate against. No one puts alcoholics in jail for ruining their lives and the lives of those around them; but we arrest paedophiles for raping children. Quite rightly too - I think a significant part of the psychology behind paedophilia must stem from childhood abuse, it's a cycle of abuse after all.

However, paedophiles are people too. They have jobs and families and friends and hobbies and it's kind of awful that someone can be branded a paedophile and be stripped of their humanity in the process - if we can better understand why paedophiles come to be and why they offend, we can better understand how to protect children in the future. Paedophilia is naturally occurring because it's in some peoples' nature to be paedophilic. That's just who they are. It must be a horrible kind of torment to know that you'd be despised if anyone ever knew about your attractions. You might never have a family because you're terrified that you'd offend against your own child; you might never hold down a normal relationship because you're scared of having kids or you're not sexually satisfied or you're terrified that if you get close to anyone, they'll find out. I just think there needs to be some understanding in the other corner of this debate. It's hard to know how to feel about proud paedophiles but I suppose I commend them in some way, it can't be easy to live with yourself.

I disagree with this, it's not addictive imo, however I do agree that it is a sexual orientation. Any sexual orientation that can never be described as 'consensual' peadophilia, beastiality can be in someones nature that doesn't necessarily make it natural and/or normal in any way for me.
By that logic psychopathy is 'normal' as it has naturally manifested itself in a percentage of people.
Yes, if they are seeking help then kudos to them for that, But the 'naturally occurring' description is right, normal it's not.

[Josy]

Wait, why is this thread turning into a sympathy for peados thread?

Fair enough if you feel the way you do about the ones that don't act on their feelings but that's not the thread topic at all...

The people from these conferences, people btw that campaign to make sex with children legal, are making the claim that every male adult has sexual feelings towards children, that is bull****, and it's a deeply insulting thing to claim because normal adults do not have feelings like that.

I also don't see the similarities between alcoholism, depression etc if I'm honest, isnt it claimed by some that peadophilia is a sexual orientation? in that case then it's nothing to do with it being an addiction is it? there is one major difference in that the other things don't endanger anyone else as such well accept in extreme circumstances but in general the only people alcoholics are a danger to in the main are themselves, they don't prey on the helpless victims that society are supposed to be protecting.

Definitely seems to me after reading the past page that the spoonfeeding by these conferences is already taking it's toll.

[Northern Monkey]

Wait, why is this thread turning into a sympathy for peados thread?

Fair enough if you feel the way you do about the ones that don't act on their feelings but that's not the thread topic at all...

The people from these conferences, people btw that campaign to make sex with children legal, are making the claim that every male adult has sexual feelings towards children, that is bull****, and it's a deeply insulting thing to claim because normal adults do not have feelings like that.

I also don't see the similarities between alcoholism, depression etc if I'm honest, isnt it claimed by some that peadophilia is a sexual orientation? in that case then it's nothing to do with it being an addiction is it? there is one major difference in that the other things don't endanger anyone else as such well accept in extreme circumstances but in general the only people alcoholics are a danger to in the main are themselves, they don't prey on the helpless victims that society are supposed to be protecting.

Definitely seems to me after reading the past page that the spoonfeeding by these conferences is already taking it's toll.

:clap1:

[Niamh.]

Wait, why is this thread turning into a sympathy for peados thread?

Fair enough if you feel the way you do about the ones that don't act on their feelings but that's not the thread topic at all...

The people from these conferences, people btw that campaign to make sex with children legal, are making the claim that every male adult has sexual feelings towards children, that is bull****, and it's a deeply insulting thing to claim because normal adults do not have feelings like that.

I also don't see the similarities between alcoholism, depression etc if I'm honest, isnt it claimed by some that peadophilia is a sexual orientation? in that case then it's nothing to do with it being an addiction is it? there is one major difference in that the other things don't endanger anyone else as such well accept in extreme circumstances but in general the only people alcoholics are a danger to in the main are themselves, they don't prey on the helpless victims that society are supposed to be protecting.

Definitely seems to me after reading the past page that the spoonfeeding by these conferences is already taking it's toll.

:clap2:

[Nedusa]

I think "naturally occurring" would be less inflammatory than "natural" or "normal" - some people develop into adulthood with an attraction to children. We can be as offended as we like about it, it doesn't mean it's not true. Paedophilia is one of the last taboos in our society that people are just not willing to have the conversation about for many reasons, but I think it's important to not immediately grab the pitchforks when there are paedophiles brave enough to speak out publicly. Yes, brave. Terrible though it may be that there are people who are attracted to children, it takes a lot of bravery to admit that to anyone and I'd argue that paedophilia is in the same arena as alcoholism, depression and other forms of addictive behaviour - if you identify with a destructive behaviour, you can only do your best to spend your life not succumbing to that behaviour. You could argue that the ripple effect from any of those behaviours is as savage as the next one - but the difference is that paedophilia is something we legislate against. No one puts alcoholics in jail for ruining their lives and the lives of those around them; but we arrest paedophiles for raping children. Quite rightly too - I think a significant part of the psychology behind paedophilia must stem from childhood abuse, it's a cycle of abuse after all.

However, paedophiles are people too. They have jobs and families and friends and hobbies and it's kind of awful that someone can be branded a paedophile and be stripped of their humanity in the process - if we can better understand why paedophiles come to be and why they offend, we can better understand how to protect children in the future. Paedophilia is naturally occurring because it's in some peoples' nature to be paedophilic. That's just who they are. It must be a horrible kind of torment to know that you'd be despised if anyone ever knew about your attractions. You might never have a family because you're terrified that you'd offend against your own child; you might never hold down a normal relationship because you're scared of having kids or you're not sexually satisfied or you're terrified that if you get close to anyone, they'll find out. I just think there needs to be some understanding in the other corner of this debate. It's hard to know how to feel about proud paedophiles but I suppose I commend them in some way, it can't be easy to live with yourself.

All the more reason to drown them at birth or as soon as their paedo nature comes to light....

[Samuel.]

Wait, why is this thread turning into a sympathy for peados thread?

Fair enough if you feel the way you do about the ones that don't act on their feelings but that's not the thread topic at all...

The people from these conferences, people btw that campaign to make sex with children legal, are making the claim that every male adult has sexual feelings towards children, that is bull****, and it's a deeply insulting thing to claim because normal adults do not have feelings like that.

I also don't see the similarities between alcoholism, depression etc if I'm honest, isnt it claimed by some that peadophilia is a sexual orientation? in that case then it's nothing to do with it being an addiction is it? there is one major difference in that the other things don't endanger anyone else as such well accept in extreme circumstances but in general the only people alcoholics are a danger to in the main are themselves, they don't prey on the helpless victims that society are supposed to be protecting.

Definitely seems to me after reading the past page that the spoonfeeding by these conferences is already taking it's toll.

There's been plenty of research done previously that supports at least the idea that it's a lot more common than percieved to be.

Ultimately even the concept of children is a social contruction and they've only been seen as vulnerable and innocent in comparison to adults in the last 200-300 years, sex between adult and child wasn't even studied or differentiated until much later. Naturally-occuring attraction to children unfortunately doesn't stop existing simply because our societal values change, they'll continue to be present in some.

Of course, none of this excuses those who rape children. I'd imagine, however, those with attraction to children are no more likely to act upon it than anybody else would act upon raping an adult. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

Your last comment is simply pathetic.

[Jack_]

Samuel and Greg :clap1: thank God there's some people who share similar views on here

This article is absolutely ridiculous, and not because of the content, but because of the way it's been totally misconstrued to stir up outrage. The comment that sexual attraction to children is prevalent in most males was made by one professor and supported by very little others. The rest of the article raises arguments from sociologists which, quite honestly, make a lot of sense. Let's go through them:

The public, wrote Dr Taylor, “generally thinks of paedophiles as sick or evil men who lurk around school playgrounds in the hope of attempting unspecified beastliness with unsuspecting innocent children”. That, he reassured readers, was merely a “stereotype”, both “inaccurate and unhelpful”, which flew in the face of the “empirical realities of paedophile behaviour”. Why, most adult-child sexual relationships occurred in the family!

True.

“The isolation, secrecy, guilt and anguish of many paedophiles,” he wrote in Perspectives on Paedophilia, “are not intrinsic to the phenomen[on] but are derived from the extreme social repression placed on minorities …

“Paedophiles are told they are the seducers and rapists of children; they know their experiences are often loving and tender ones.

Also true, if there wasn't a social stigma attached to it (and at one point in history there wasn't) then there would be nothing to feel guilty about.

The only part I don't really agree with is this:

They are told that children are pure and innocent, devoid of sexuality; they know both from their own experiences of childhood and from the children they meet that this is not the case.”

But then it's important to remember that, as Samuel pointed out, childhood is a social construction and is one that fluctuates across different cultures and time.

The book sounds like quite an interesting read to be honest. At the end of the day all it is is sociological research and academic enquiry, it doesn't have to be taken seriously. It is just the opinions put forward by some academics in much the same way that every other aspect of the social world is theorised. After all, humans have created the rules, they aren't inherent or natural. And yes, that includes paedophilia. That doesn't mean having sex with children is acceptable before someone jumps down my throat, but childhood is a socially constructed categorisation and some people are unfortunately sexually attracted to children.

[Niamh.]

“Paedophiles are told they are the seducers and rapists of children; they know their experiences are often loving and tender ones.

Seriously Jack? Their abuse of children is loving and tender?

[Jack_]

I think that implies that their experiences of being attracted to children are those of loving, tender and emotional connections rather than strictly sexual ones. At least that's how I interpreted that statement anyway. Indeed from interviews I've read with paedophiles a lot of them expressed how they feel a sense of protection towards those they are attracted to, amplified by the guilt of their situation, more than any sexual attraction.

[Marsh.]

But surely feelings outside of sexual attraction are a separate issue and not related to this "pedophilia is a sexual orientation" stuff?

We all feel protective and a certain "love" for people we are not sexually attracted or involved with, adults and children.

[Kizzy]

“Paedophiles are told they are the seducers and rapists of children; they know their experiences are often loving and tender ones.
Also true, if there wasn't a social stigma attached to it (and at one point in history there wasn't) then there would be nothing to feel guilty about.


How are they able to judge what is a genuine loving tender relationship is coming from the perspective of a deviant?
They know it is not a social or a societal norm, they may have only the indoctrination of an abuser to have any childhood references to draw on which would explain why the abused go on to become the abuser.
However it cannot be denied that they know what they feel is wrong and attempting to suggest feelings are reciprocated by a minor is a way of deflecting the blame so they don't face the realisation that what they are doing or fantasise about doing has nothing to do with love and/or or emotion and everything to do with control.

[Z]

I see the reactionary police are out in force in this thread. Fair enough that most of them are parents themselves, it's hard to imagine a parent reacting in any other way, but I still think the point remains that we will never know how many people are out there with paedophilic tendencies until we as a society learn to be more accepting of the fact that it exists, it has always existed and will always exist.

Extreme points of view like to draw comparisons between homosexuality and paedophilia or lump them together because they're "perverse" and "not the norm" - perhaps controversially I'd argue that they're probably in the same sphere of understanding of the human psyche (why do some people feel attractions towards things that aren't going to help them reproduce?) - but the difference of course is that two homosexual people can consent to sexual intercourse; a child doesn't know any better. Even though kids are being sexualised from a shockingly early age, that doesn't mean they are sexual beings. I didn't disagree with the statement that paedophilia isn't normal - it should never be allowed to become normal - because normal is what we accept as normality. It is a natural phenomenon though, it's in some peoples' natures to be attracted to children. Perhaps it's shaped by an early experience or perhaps it's just how they were born; perhaps we'll never know or perhaps it'll be explained by science in the way that homosexuality is being researched.

The simple fact of the matter is that the way things are, we only know who's a paedophile if they 1) offend and 2) get caught. The bad minority does not represent the good majority; as is always the case in life - so that's why I believe that there are far more people with paedophilic tendencies out there than we'd like to believe.

[kirklancaster]

Despite the increasing apologist psychobabble' from certain psychiatrists and academics, Paedophiles themselves KNOW the difference between being drawn to children by affection and 'loving, tender and emotional connections' - which is NOT paedophilia but just natural instinctive feelings found in all normal men and women - and sexual attraction to children which IS paedophilia.

If they did not know this difference, then they would hardly go to the lengths which they do to HIDE their predilections and sordid activities.

All this B.S. is just yet another facet of the increasing trend over the past 30 years to marginalise or even BLAME the victim by MITIGATING or even EXCUSING the perpetrator.

Such a trend is wholly and emphatically supported - usually covertly - by people in lofty positions because among their number can be found the greatest clusters of deviants.

I will repeat; that those unfortunates who REALISE that they have this sickness and who fight their urges and seek help, do not deserve castigating and should be treated in strictest confidence.

In my opinion.

[Kizzy]

I see the reactionary police are out in force in this thread. Fair enough that most of them are parents themselves, it's hard to imagine a parent reacting in any other way, but I still think the point remains that we will never know how many people are out there with paedophilic tendencies until we as a society learn to be more accepting of the fact that it exists, it has always existed and will always exist.

Extreme points of view like to draw comparisons between homosexuality and paedophilia or lump them together because they're "perverse" and "not the norm" - perhaps controversially I'd argue that they're probably in the same sphere of understanding of the human psyche (why do some people feel attractions towards things that aren't going to help them reproduce?) - but the difference of course is that two homosexual people can consent to sexual intercourse; a child doesn't know any better. Even though kids are being sexualised from a shockingly early age, that doesn't mean they are sexual beings. I didn't disagree with the statement that paedophilia isn't normal - it should never be allowed to become normal - because normal is what we accept as normality. It is a natural phenomenon though, it's in some peoples' natures to be attracted to children. Perhaps it's shaped by an early experience or perhaps it's just how they were born; perhaps we'll never know or perhaps it'll be explained by science in the way that homosexuality is being researched.

The simple fact of the matter is that the way things are, we only know who's a paedophile if they 1) offend and 2) get caught. The bad minority does not represent the good majority; as is always the case in life - so that's why I believe that there are far more people with paedophilic tendencies out there than we'd like to believe.

Not like you to be so unvaguely vague Z.

Where did anyone draw a comparison between peadophilia and homosexuality?...Not anyone I can see in this thread, my earlier point referenced consensual sex, which homosexual sex is so not in any way shape or form comparable.

[Josy]

There's been plenty of research done previously that supports at least the idea that it's a lot more common than percieved to be.

Ultimately even the concept of children is a social contruction and they've only been seen as vulnerable and innocent in comparison to adults in the last 200-300 years, sex between adult and child wasn't even studied or differentiated until much later. Naturally-occuring attraction to children unfortunately doesn't stop existing simply because our societal values change, they'll continue to be present in some.

Of course, none of this excuses those who rape children. I'd imagine, however, those with attraction to children are no more likely to act upon it than anybody else would act upon raping an adult. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

Your last comment is simply pathetic.

Samuel I couldn't care less if you think any of my comments are pathetic, I personally find some of the views in this thread to be sickening not to mention completely offensive to victims of these people.

'Oh lets all respect the brave paedophiles that don't act upon their feelings, those poor people eh we need to understand them better.. I personally think that's a crock of ****.

As someone that has witnessed the complete devastation that this can cause in a childs life it actually baffles me how anyone can seriously attempt to justify the urges and actions of paedophiles by claiming that it's normal, it's not normal and there is no place for it in our society so theres no need for us to be accepting or understanding of it in any way IMO.

And I am genuinely interested to know how much people that sympathise with paedophiles that have resisted their urges would be happy enough to live next door to them with their young kids?

[Jack_]

If paedophilia isn't a sexual orientation, then what is it? Are people seriously suggesting some choose to live a life of guilt, repression and self-hatred? :umm2:

[Livia]

I am 100% with Josy on this.

[Cherie]

Samuel I couldn't care less if you think any of my comments are pathetic, I personally find some of the views in this thread to be sickening not to mention completely offensive to victims of these people.

'Oh lets all respect the brave paedophiles that don't act upon their feelings, those poor people eh we need to understand them better.. I personally think that's a crock of ****.

As someone that has witnessed the complete devastation that this can cause in a childs life it actually baffles me how anyone can seriously attempt to justify the urges and actions of paedophiles by claiming that it's normal, it's not normal and there is no place for it in our society so theres no need for us to be accepting or understanding of it in any way IMO.

And I am genuinely interested to know how much people that sympathise with paedophiles that have resisted their urges would be happy enough to live next door to them with their young kids?


Fantastic post Josy.

[kirklancaster]

Samuel I couldn't care less if you think any of my comments are pathetic, I personally find some of the views in this thread to be sickening not to mention completely offensive to victims of these people.

'Oh lets all respect the brave paedophiles that don't act upon their feelings, those poor people eh we need to understand them better.. I personally think that's a crock of ****.

As someone that has witnessed the complete devastation that this can cause in a childs life it actually baffles me how anyone can seriously attempt to justify the urges and actions of paedophiles by claiming that it's normal, it's not normal and there is no place for it in our society so theres no need for us to be accepting or understanding of it in any way IMO.

And I am genuinely interested to know how much people that sympathise with paedophiles that have resisted their urges would be happy enough to live next door to them with their young kids?

No one who is sane, but perhaps I should have expounded the last part of my post:

"I will repeat; that those unfortunates who REALISE that they have this sickness and who fight their urges and seek help, do not deserve castigating and should be treated in strictest confidence."

by adding:

"In secure institutions."

I also feel that the local Police SHOULD be alerted but with a strict order that the person being voluntarily treated has committed no crime, and because of this perhaps there should be 2 separate registers?

[Marsh.]

If paedophilia isn't a sexual orientation, then what is it? Are people seriously suggesting some choose to live a life of guilt, repression and self-hatred? :umm2:

Just because they didn't choose it doesn't make it natural or normal nor does it suddenly become a sexual orientation.

It belongs under mental illness IMO. The same as any sicko who has impulses for other vile acts in this world.

[lostalex]

Being solely attracted to children makes someone a monster? Absolutely not.

Acting upon those attractions is the vital difference and the two shouldn't be lumped together in any circumstance.

The attitude people have towards paedophiles is frightening, emotive and in a lot of cases harmful. If someone has paedophilic thoughts, why on earth would they reach out for help. It'd result in being shamed, villified and their life potentially ruined because of the completely unhelpful attitude of mob-like anger this country shows at every opportunity.

I really hope ten, twenty years down the line we can start approaching the topic sensibly without throwing around the word "monster".


i think peoples attitudes are so strong because we all know how strong and overwhelming sexual urges are for all healthy people. sexuality is a corner stone of every human beings life.

imagine telling a man he can't have sex with a woman (or a man if he's gay) how long can he actually resist before he acts on those impulses? it's like conservatives that advocate for abstinance only sex education. the fact is, men and women always end up succumbing to their sexual desires, no matter how religious they are.

so if a pedophile feels that way towards children, how long can we really expect him to deny his sexuality? I personally don't believe you can change someone's sexuality. no matter how much therapy or medication you give them.

That is why everyone is so worried about pedophiles. all the studies have shown that almost ALL pedophiles are repeat offenders. So i don't think the public is overreacting at all. they really are an extreme danger to children.

[Z]

Not like you to be so unvaguely vague Z.

Where did anyone draw a comparison between peadophilia and homosexuality?...Not anyone I can see in this thread, my earlier point referenced consensual sex, which homosexual sex is so not in any way shape or form comparable.

I'm not being vague. There are plenty of people with extreme points of view (none of those points of view have been expressed in this thread, I didn't say that) who lump all "deviants from the norm" together. I wasn't referring to you, I was speaking generally.

Samuel I couldn't care less if you think any of my comments are pathetic, I personally find some of the views in this thread to be sickening not to mention completely offensive to victims of these people.

'Oh lets all respect the brave paedophiles that don't act upon their feelings, those poor people eh we need to understand them better.. I personally think that's a crock of ****.

As someone that has witnessed the complete devastation that this can cause in a childs life it actually baffles me how anyone can seriously attempt to justify the urges and actions of paedophiles by claiming that it's normal, it's not normal and there is no place for it in our society so theres no need for us to be accepting or understanding of it in any way IMO.

And I am genuinely interested to know how much people that sympathise with paedophiles that have resisted their urges would be happy enough to live next door to them with their young kids?

I don't sympathise with paedophiles and I wouldn't be happy having one next door; but I'd rather live in a world where someone with paedophilic feelings feels safe enough to seek help/counselling for their feelings and learn to control them rather than live a life of manic depression until they either 1) commit a crime that ruins many lives and/or 2) commits suicide as a result of offending or not being able to live with themselves. Let me flip that question round on you; would you be happy enough knowing that your total lack of tolerance for someone's mental issues caused them to kill themselves because they couldn't seek help for fear of being ostracised by the community?

I want to be really clear here: I do not support paedophiles in any way, I doubt anyone here does. It's not a question of support, it's a question of acceptance of the fact they exist and there are probably a great many more paedophiles who live in torment, never acting on it, than those we know about because they have.

Just because they didn't choose it doesn't make it natural or normal nor does it suddenly become a sexual orientation.

It belongs under mental illness IMO. The same as any sicko who has impulses for other vile acts in this world.

If you don't choose something so intrinsic about yourself, it is natural. There is a distinction to be made between "normal" and "natural" that isn't being made clear enough and I think the word "natural" on its own implies something very offensive that obviously a great deal of people are picking up on in this thread. Naturally occuring would be the term. I didn't choose to be gay and luckily enough I'm living in a world that's starting to change and allow me to be open about that part of myself if I want to be. Paedophilia is a disorder perhaps, or perhaps future generations will come to see it as an orientation which needs to be counselled and brought under control, and perhaps one day they'll figure out why people feel that way and perhaps even cure them one day, in the way that people try to "cure" homosexuality unsuccessfully in this day and age. I don't think paedophilia itself is the mental illness, I think the stigma surrounding paedophilia is what causes mental illness because it makes people who experience those feelings feel a great deal of guilt, shame and may lead to depression and leave them unable to function in society.

I think this is an interesting debate though. It's an extremely emotive one and I think it can only really be discussed hypothetically by people who don't have kids and haven't seen the devastating impacts of child abuse first hand, because anyone who has will of course (rightfully) not have any tolerance for hearing anything to the contrary. I don't necessarily disagree with anyone in this thread, I just think this topic is one that ought to be discussed more widely and it would benefit society as a whole if we could better understand what causes paedophilia and how to help potential offenders not offend.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, but because something is "natural" doesn't mean it should be accepted.

Like I said, any mental illness or something else which affects someone's behaviour/impulses from sexual to violent etc can be called "naturally occurring" in certain cases.

This pedophile stuff should be treated just like that.

[Z]

Yeah, but because something is "natural" doesn't mean it should be accepted.

Like I said, any mental illness or something else which affects someone's behaviour/impulses from sexual to violent etc can be called "naturally occurring" in certain cases.

This pedophile stuff should be treated just like that.

Yeah, we're not disagreeing here :laugh: - the point that I'm trying to make is that it happens. It's always happened. Even today, it happens in cultures where it's actually broadly accepted in some cases - child brides being common in cultures where women are bartered by families in exchange for livestock and such like. Is that paedophilia if it's not considered as such by certain cultures? It's still a child having sex with an adult. That's a bit of a tangent but it's something else to think about. Paedophilia exists and sometimes paedophiles act on their impulses and children have their lives ruined or worse, are murdered by people trying to cover up what they did. I feel like if paedophilia wasn't quite so violently stigmatised by society as a whole, paedophiles would seek help instead of trying to fight an internal battle alone and ending up losing. Like I said, I consider it to be somewhat like people fighting substance addictions - they know that they're susceptible so they remove themselves from situations where the temptation is strong. An alcoholic doesn't go to a bar; a paedophile shouldn't go to a playground. The difference is that there is help for alcoholics, there isn't much help for paedophiles. And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not bloody lumping paedophilia and alcoholism together :fist:

[Marsh.]

Yeah, we're not disagreeing here :laugh: - the point that I'm trying to make is that it happens. It's always happened. Even today, it happens in cultures where it's actually broadly accepted in some cases - child brides being common in cultures where women are bartered by families in exchange for livestock and such like. Is that paedophilia if it's not considered as such by certain cultures? It's still a child having sex with an adult. That's a bit of a tangent but it's something else to think about. Paedophilia exists and sometimes paedophiles act on their impulses and children have their lives ruined or worse, are murdered by people trying to cover up what they did. I feel like if paedophilia wasn't quite so violently stigmatised by society as a whole, paedophiles would seek help instead of trying to fight an internal battle alone and ending up losing. Like I said, I consider it to be somewhat like people fighting substance addictions - they know that they're susceptible so they remove themselves from situations where the temptation is strong. An alcoholic doesn't go to a bar; a paedophile shouldn't go to a playground. The difference is that there is help for alcoholics, there isn't much help for paedophiles. And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not bloody lumping paedophilia and alcoholism together :fist:

Oh yes, I see where you're coming from now. :laugh: I agree.

Pedophiles who commit crimes should be treated like any other criminal but ones that just want help like someone else struggling with any mental illness or addiction should be helped just as much.

[Z]

Oh yes, I see where you're coming from now. :laugh: I agree.

Pedophiles who commit crimes should be treated like any other criminal but ones that just want help like someone else struggling with any mental illness or addiction should be helped just as much.

Yeah exactly, I mean I don't know how anyone can disagree with that - wouldn't you rather know that someone was seeking counselling to help manage their temptations to offend than the current situation where we only know that someone is a paedophile if they commit an offence?! And the only way that paedophiles will start seeking help is if they know that they're not going to be attacked by a lynch mob for admitting it. That's why I think it's brave that there are people who are willing to discuss this so publicly. It's a conversation that needs to be had and the people with the best insights are the people who feel that way; it's near enough impossible to get anyone to open up about it so that's why I think these people are brave for doing so. Not many would or have.

Plus, anyone who actually goes ahead and commits the crime is either extremely arrogant or extremely deranged, often both, as shown by the extremes of high-society-cover-ups exposed by Yewtree and infamous criminal cases like Sarah Payne, April Jones etc... - these people probably wouldn't seek out help even if it were there; they committed these crimes because their sense of right and wrong has been skewed by positions of power or just simply having no respect for the rule of law.

[empire]

its funny that there are large amounts of women who are sexually abusing children, I hear its in north america, australia,new zealand,even hear in the uk, the biggest taboo their was that the age, of the boys and girls that where being groomed, in the cases, some where as young as six years old,then to eight to 10 and 12 right up to 14,what is disturbing their is that these women tell them that they love them, which they are lying, they manipulate and control them, police in every case found in their cars,new toys to gagets and new trainers for boys,many psychologists have tested alot of females who where caught, they showed pictures of men then to pictures of boys, in the end they did not get sexually aroused with the adult pictures, but the boys pictures, they where aroused by it, when this was put into the court cases, still they got a very soft jail terms,here in the uk, the media blacks out women who do the same thing, like 99 percent of the time, because it will cause paranoia, with parents not trusting a friend to baby sit their chlidren, the male black out in are media is about 40 percent, so there is alot more there,the police know to are mps, that both genders do it, same time we are trying to lower the age of consent, why else would they risk doing that, the most good looking man to the most beautiful women can be a nonce, some people can't face it when it is a pretty type woman, that was doing it, people would say that she could of had any man she wanted, but it was a little kid,