how many seats will ukip win?

[the truth]

theres vast enormous under current of support for farage
the vast majority agree with him but are too scared to admit it in public , but will admit it in private.
this is a legacy of pc Britain under new labour where conversations were outlawed and free speech destroyed as our civil rights were destroyed
we ended up with child benefits being sent to india and Romania, to 60% of hiv patients being from abroad, to net immigration of over 300,000 a year

this support is enormous, you ask people one to one in private its incredible how much support there is for farage BUT lots speak of their fear for some lunatics he may have behind him

[Firewire]

Less than people think

[Shaun]

Did think about 15 a month or two ago, now I'd only say about 7.

[Firewire]

Did think about 15 a month or two ago, now I'd only say about 7.

yeah less than 10 i think

[JoshBB]

4-9 imo, between that range

[MTVN]

More than 5 and I'll be amazed. IMO their election hopes are looking pretty unstable, you'd think their best hopes are the two Tory defectors and Farage. Carswell should be fine of the Tory defectors but seems like he could be less sure of his decision than he was, and Reckless' hold on his seat isn't that strong. Even Farage looks like he could be in danger of not winning his seat and tbh Ukip lack many other politicians of any decent standing. I'll say that they win 3

[Mystic Mock]

From my experience it's the right wing politics that's more “PC” than the left, just go back to my thread about Perez being Jesus Christ.

But onto the topic I think that Farage will win the Looney Party about 8 to 10 extra seats.

[bots]

I would estimate 2 or 3 seats

[Rob!]

I'm hoping it's going to be similar to how the Lib Dems did last general election when there was loads of seats expected for them to win and they did awfully.

[the truth]

From my experience it's the right wing politics that's more “PC” than the left, just go back to my thread about Perez being Jesus Christ.

But onto the topic I think that Farage will win the Looney Party about 8 to 10 extra seats.

what complete nonsense , no offence, but labour and new labour especially virtually invented PC and destroyed free speech

[Mystic Mock]

what complete nonsense , no offence, but labour and new labour especially virtually invented PC and destroyed free speech

They both don't allow free speech on different things, I do personally however think that the extreme right wing parties like UKIP and BNP like to be allowed to say their opinion, but not allow the opposition to say that it's wrong in their opinion, I have not seen a left wing person do that quite as much as I have seen the right do it.

[empire]

nigel farage and his party will shock alot of people, just how far they will go in the polls, on may, lib dems are finished, they had 1st place or second place, close to their fingers, in 2010, but they made a cock up big time. I think ukip will have nearly 2 milliom votes in their pocket.

[DemolitionRed]

Not many. UKIP are relying on peoples naivety. The majority will never vote for political fools.

[joeysteele]

They both don't allow free speech on different things, I do personally however think that the extreme right wing parties like UKIP and BNP like to be allowed to say their opinion, but not allow the opposition to say that it's wrong in their opinion, I have not seen a left wing person do that quite as much as I have seen the right do it.

You make a fair point, UKIP believe in free speech and democracy,when it suits them ,not when it can work against them.
They for instance don't want 16 and 17 year olds to have a vote in any in/out referendum on the EU,that is because it is perceived that the younger sections of society are more likely in favour of being in the EU.
UKIP also doesn't want anyone, not of British origin who is working here, living here and that have even been here for ages and who are registered to vote in elections,to also not have a vote in an in/ out referendum.
So rights as to democracy and free speech seem to be likely only going to be allowed if it falls in the more agreement section with UKIP.

Anyway to the question, I think UKIP will have a minimum 2 seats, probably 5 and no more than 7.
They would need Labour and the Conservatives to be down to around 31% each and for them to be on around 22% to even get to that.
I don't see that happening myself.

[kirklancaster]

Not many. UKIP are relying on peoples naivety. The majority will never vote for political fools.

:joker::joker::joker: Oh really? How do we account for; Neville Chamberlain, Edward Heath, John Major, Tony Blair?

[kirklancaster]

http://www.eu-facts.org/en/whoiswho/images/hallstein_erhard_westrick_carstens_von-hase.jpg

[DemolitionRed]

:joker::joker::joker: Oh really? How do we account for; Neville Chamberlain, Edward Heath, John Major, Tony Blair?

They all promised something that enough of the people wanted. Votes gathered on a false promise is something we all know about.

Whilst I can appreciate that UKIP are like a cat amongst the pigeons, their politics are weak and wishy-washy.

[Livia]

I'm not sure they'll win that many seats; a few maybe. But what they are going to do is split the vote and affect the outcome of the election.

[user104658]

Not many, because this statement:


the vast majority agree with him but are too scared to admit it in public

...is absolute nonsense.

[Nedusa]

I pray they win as many as possible and are asked to help form a coalition Govt.

[user104658]

I pray they win as many as possible and are asked to help form a coalition Govt.

A Conservative / UKIP coailition would be an absolute nightmare. Even the Tories wouldn't want to go for it, because realistically, the Tories don't want to leave the EU. They just shy away from outright stating that it should never happen. The reason for this, is that the Conservatives do actually understand that leaving the EU - whilst a popular idea with naive xenophobes - is actually economically ****ing retarded.

[DemolitionRed]

A Conservative / UKIP coailition would be an absolute nightmare. Even the Tories wouldn't want to go for it, because realistically, the Tories don't want to leave the EU. They just shy away from outright stating that it should never happen. The reason for this, is that the Conservatives do actually understand that leaving the EU - whilst a popular idea with naive xenophobes - is actually economically ****ing retarded.

Whilst I agree with everything you say, a Conservative/UKIP coalition would be a sure way of killing UKIP off for good.

[user104658]

Whilst I agree with everything you say, a Conservative/UKIP coalition would be a sure way of killing UKIP off for good.
Well, it worked for the Lib Dems!

[kirklancaster]

A Conservative / UKIP coailition would be an absolute nightmare. Even the Tories wouldn't want to go for it, because realistically, the Tories don't want to leave the EU. They just shy away from outright stating that it should never happen. The reason for this, is that the Conservatives do actually understand that leaving the EU - whilst a popular idea with naive xenophobes - is actually economically ****ing retarded.

:joker::joker::joker: In your extremely poorly informed opinion. My opinion is the exact opposite.

I would be willing to wager that none of you pro EU stalwarts are even conversant with the real facts about the EU - from its Nazi origins to its current day corrupt and sinister covert agenda.

I posted a photo 8 posts back hoping that someone would comment or query it, but to no avail.

Do you know its relevancy here?

[user104658]

:joker::joker::joker: In your extremely poorly informed opinion. My opinion is the exact opposite.

I would be willing to wager that none of you pro EU stalwarts are even conversant with the real facts about the EU - from its Nazi origins to its current day corrupt and sinister covert agenda.

I posted a photo 8 posts back hoping that someone would comment or query it, but to no avail.

Do you know its relevancy here?

And any of this is relevant to the economic impact of leaving the EU? It doesn't matter if it was founded by and is still operated by goat slaughtering Satan worshippers... Leaving it would cause untold economic damage, and the only reason the Tories even entertain the idea of an in/out referendum is to appease people who have no comprehension of that.

The reason UKIP wants out of Europe is because it's full of idiots and racists who would blame stubbing their toe on the shoddy workmanship of a Polish joiner if they could find a link.

[billy123]

UKIP are nothing more than the monday club 2.0 they hope to grab enough seats to form a coalition with the tories.
If they dont manage to do it then Farage and the whole carnival will be toast.
The Kippers are nothing more than Elm tree guest house buddys scum of the political world.

[kirklancaster]

And any of this is relevant to the economic impact of leaving the EU? It doesn't matter if it was founded by and is still operated by goat slaughtering Satan worshippers... Leaving it would cause untold economic damage, and the only reason the Tories even entertain the idea of an in/out referendum is to appease people who have no comprehension of that.

The reason UKIP wants out of Europe is because it's full of idiots and racists who would blame stubbing their toe on the shoddy workmanship of a Polish joiner if they could find a link.

Well it is relevant, but let's leave that aside then for now (even though other posts have veered outside the strict parameters of the topic) and let's continue this as a civil and structured debate.

Can you post corroborating reasons for your statement that: "Leaving it (the EU)would cause untold economic damage"?

[kirklancaster]

I'm not sure they'll win that many seats; a few maybe. But what they are going to do is split the vote and affect the outcome of the election.

Even were they not to win many seats this time, they will increasingly win more seats as the other two parties are increasingly found NOT to be able to address the very real concerns of the British public concerning the EU and unfettered immigration.

[Livia]

Even were they not to win many seats this time, they will increasingly win more seats as the other two parties are increasingly found NOT to be able to address the very real concerns of the British public concerning the EU and unfettered immigration.

Interestingly, only one party is offering an in/out referendum on Europe, allowing the public to decide our future in the EU and that party is not UKIP. The Tories are slowly waking up to the fact that we have finite resources and hundreds of thousands of incomers every year puts an unbearable strain on our infrastructure.

I personally want out of Europe. For a long time I hadn't formed an opinion but now having satisfied myself on the question I have come out against the EU. As I said on another thread, we do more business with the US than we do with the EU and we have a whole Commonwealth that's not being used in a way beneficial to everyone because we're spending all out time trying to fit into Europe... which we don't. Sadly I believe that UKIP has gained strength because of the fact that no one is allowed to have an adult discussion about immigration because they get labelled racists and xenophobes. UKIP started the conversation and people picked up on it. Sadly the name-calling is still going on. There must be a discussion about immigration though, and I say that as the descendant of refugees.

[MTVN]

On the economic point: instability is one of the biggest curses of economies and businesses everywhere, a lot of major companies have expressed worries about even having a referendum on Europe never mind us leaving altogether. It won't be so simple as continuing to trade while being politically separate, there would be incredibly laborious negotiations as we try and unravel our EU membership and then once that's done we would then need to start the equally long task of negotiating on what terms exactly our relationship will be with the rest of Europe. People talk about Switzerland but as I understand it their relationship with the EU is the product of years of complex agreements and treaties which is not particularly stable. If you separate yourself from the EU and reject it then we completely lose the ability to affect change from within and be a part of reforming the EU for the benefit of all that does need to happen.

[user104658]

Well it is relevant, but let's leave that aside then for now (even though other posts have veered outside the strict parameters of the topic) and let's continue this as a civil and structured debate.

Can you post corroborating reasons for your statement that: "Leaving it (the EU)would cause untold economic damage"?
As you know by now Kirk I have neither the time nor the inclination to post page-long dissertations on these topic as you do, I learned long ago that there's simply very little point. Especially on the Internet. something that I'm surprised you haven't realised yet.

However, two brief reasons:

1) over 50% if the UKs import/export trade is with Eu member states. If you believe that those trades won't be affected (amounting to tens of billions) by removing ourselves from the EU you are lying to yourself.

2) as someone else mentioned, US based and other global multinationals currently use the UK as a "stepping stone" to access the massive European marketplace. They will have very little interest in this scrappy little island without that link. I'll trust you to look into the economic implications of that for yourself.

The UK's place on the world stage is reliant on being a part of Europe. The only people who don't realise this are those who still, unfathomably, have their heads stuck in idea of Britain as an Empire, that we are somehow globally "great" on simple account of our own wonderful Great Britishness. We don't want to be part of Europe because we are somehow "bigger and better than that". We are not.

[user104658]

we do more business with the US than we do with the EU.

I have no idea which UKIP pamphlet you read this in but you are massively misinformed.

[Livia]

I have no idea which UKIP pamphlet you read this in but you are massively misinformed.

I find it a little insulting that you would assume I would get my opinions from a UKIP leaflet.

[user104658]

I find it a little insulting that you would assume I would get my opinions from a UKIP leaflet.
Well I don't know where you did get them from. US exports are worth around 80 billion and EU exports are worth over 150 billion. Germany alone is worth over 40 billion. The EU and US combined account for more than three quarters of our total trade and the EU itself around half.

In other words: we don't do "more trade" with the US than Europe or even close to it. It's about 50% Europe, 25% US, and the other 25% is the entirety of the rest of the world combined.

[JoshBB]

Interestingly, only one party is offering an in/out referendum on Europe, allowing the public to decide our future in the EU and that party is not UKIP. The Tories are slowly waking up to the fact that we have finite resources and hundreds of thousands of incomers every year puts an unbearable strain on our infrastructure.

I personally want out of Europe. For a long time I hadn't formed an opinion but now having satisfied myself on the question I have come out against the EU. As I said on another thread, we do more business with the US than we do with the EU and we have a whole Commonwealth that's not being used in a way beneficial to everyone because we're spending all out time trying to fit into Europe... which we don't. Sadly I believe that UKIP has gained strength because of the fact that no one is allowed to have an adult discussion about immigration because they get labelled racists and xenophobes. UKIP started the conversation and people picked up on it. Sadly the name-calling is still going on. There must be a discussion about immigration though, and I say that as the descendant of refugees.


Greens have offered an in/out referendum.
Tories have offered an in/out referendum.
UKIP have offered an in/out referendum.
Liberal Democrats have offered an in/out referendum. (but why trust them lmao)

not just one party

[Crimson Dynamo]

UKIP are nothing more than the monday club 2.0 they hope to grab enough seats to form a coalition with the tories.
If they dont manage to do it then Farage and the whole carnival will be toast.
The Kippers are nothing more than Elm tree guest house buddys scum of the political world.

:joker:

what rot

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well I don't know where you did get them from. US exports are worth around 80 billion and EU exports are worth over 150 billion. Germany alone is worth over 40 billion. The EU and US combined account for more than three quarters of our total trade and the EU itself around half.

In other words: we don't do "more trade" with the US than Europe or even close to it. It's about 50% Europe, 25% US, and the other 25% is the entirety of the rest of the world combined.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/

[user104658]

:joker:

what rot
Why is it rot? If UKIP fail to gain any sort of influence at this election, they will be an irrelevance (once more) by the time the next one rolls round. They're enjoying their 15 minutes of fame but it won't come to much unless it's capitalised upon this year.

[user104658]

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/
Ahh thankyou LT, for providing data showing that Germany and Holland alone ($79bn) are worth more in export revenue than the United States ($52bn).

Throw in France and it's more than double already. :facepalm:

[user104658]

Methinks some people have heard it stated that the US is our biggest trading partner as an individual country and somehow taken that to mean that they are worth more than the entire European Union :joker:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why is it rot? If UKIP fail to gain any sort of influence at this election, they will be an irrelevance (once more) by the time the next one rolls round. They're enjoying their 15 minutes of fame but it won't come to much unless it's capitalised upon this year.

another sooth sayer who has the ability to see into the future :idc:





who will win the national then?

[user104658]

another sooth sayer who has the ability to see into the future :idc:





who will win the national then?
Pointless tactic LT. We all make predictions or we wouldn't believe anything at all. I'm no more claiming to know the future than you are when you state that we would be better off out of Europe :shrug:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Pointless tactic LT. We all make predictions or we wouldn't believe anything at all. I'm no more claiming to know the future than you are when you state that we would be better off out of Europe :shrug:.

I have not stated that in this thread :shrug:

[Livia]

Greens have offered an in/out referendum.
Tories have offered an in/out referendum.
UKIP have offered an in/out referendum.
Liberal Democrats have offered an in/out referendum. (but why trust them lmao)

not just one party

Only one party is offering a referendum Josh. One. Only.

[Livia]

Methinks some people have heard it stated that the US is our biggest trading partner as an individual country and somehow taken that to mean that they are worth more than the entire European Union :joker:.

Put me down in a medieval stylie...

[user104658]

Only one party is offering a referendum Josh. One. Only.

And only to win votes back from UKIP.

[Livia]

And only to win votes back from UKIP.

Well, you seem to have insights into all this that even the leaders don't have.

Anyway, that was to Josh, who seems to think everyone's offering a referendum.

[user104658]

Put me down in a medieval stylie...

It's because of Kirk, he's having an effect on the whole forum and making it more old fashioned. (He was born in medieval times, legend has it).

[Livia]

It's because of Kirk, he's having an effect on the whole forum and making it more old fashioned. (He was born in medieval times, legend has it).

Forsooth, methinks you could be right.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's because of Kirk, he's having an effect on the whole forum and making it more old fashioned. (He was born in medieval times, legend has it).

Biblical, the word you were searching for was Biblical

:hehe:

[Nedusa]

As you know by now Kirk I have neither the time nor the inclination to post page-long dissertations on these topic as you do, I learned long ago that there's simply very little point. Especially on the Internet. something that I'm surprised you haven't realised yet.

However, two brief reasons:

1) over 50% if the UKs import/export trade is with Eu member states. If you believe that those trades won't be affected (amounting to tens of billions) by removing ourselves from the EU you are lying to yourself.

2) as someone else mentioned, US based and other global multinationals currently use the UK as a "stepping stone" to access the massive European marketplace. They will have very little interest in this scrappy little island without that link. I'll trust you to look into the economic implications of that for yourself.

The UK's place on the world stage is reliant on being a part of Europe. The only people who don't realise this are those who still, unfathomably, have their heads stuck in idea of Britain as an Empire, that we are somehow globally "great" on simple account of our own wonderful Great Britishness. We don't want to be part of Europe because we are somehow "bigger and better than that". We are not.

Please tell me.........please, what is the fcuking point of having all these so called "European benefits" if one cannot get or have the following:-

Access to a Doctor
Access to a Dentist (NHS)
Roads and/or Motorways that are not constantly blocked
Less than a 5 hour wait at any A&E
A Hospital Bed
Hospital Operation in less than a year
Medication on NHS for all treatments incl Cancer therapies.
A School within 5 miles of where you live
Less than 30 classmates
English spoken as the primary language.
House prices low enough for first time buyers to get on the housing ladder
Proper Employment contracts that give job security (end to zero hr contracts)
End to influx of cheap eastern European labour that under cuts agreed UK wage levels.

If being in the flippin EU is so dam good for us then please explain after 40 years in this failed European Project why our quality of life has gone DOWN in nearly every area of our lives......

I shudder to think how we would be living now if we had not joined the Common market back in 1975.....

:shrug::shrug::shrug:

[bots]

The City expressed significant alarm when the EU first mentioned a trading tax, something that the UK has managed to beat off for now, but it will come back - Thats one very good reason not to be within Europe

On the other side, we have completely free trade with european countries. So no import/export quotas - that sort of thing can have a huge effect on business. Businesses my well be forced to move out of european cities meaning our products are not being marketed with the same prominence and vigour.

The list goes on - there are huge consequences to business but lets not forget rural communities, farmers and the like who rely on europe.

I would really like to see some serious attempt at stacking up the pros and cons of the EU - none of our politicians have come close to attempting it yet.

[user104658]

Most of those things have absolutely nothing to do with EU membership. You can't just blame all of the UK's **** ups on Europe and pretend that everything would be perfect if we had stayed out... We've managed to create all of these inefficiencies and mismanagements all by ourselves.

[Nedusa]

Most of those things have absolutely nothing to do with EU membership. You can't just blame all of the UK's **** ups on Europe and pretend that everything would be perfect if we had stayed out... We've managed to create all of these inefficiencies and mismanagements all by ourselves.

Maybe ...maybe not, but to hear people go on and on about the benefits of being in Europe bearing in mind the state of the Country, I for one struggle to see how this so called benefit has translated itself into helping or increasing the quality of life of the man on the street.

I have listed in this post and others the negative effects of being in Europe and how this has had a detrimental effect on most peoples lives.

So where are the benefits....???? can someone list them .... Anyone.... :shrug::shrug:

[Livia]

Maybe ...maybe not, but to hear people go on and on about the benefits of being in Europe bearing in mind the state of the Country, I for one struggle to see how this so called benefit has translated itself into helping or increasing the quality of life of the man on the street.

I have listed in this post and others the negative effects of being in Europe and how this has had a detrimental effect on most peoples lives.

So where are the benefits....???? can someone list them .... Anyone.... :shrug::shrug:

Nope...

[user104658]

Ffs, you have listed random negative things about the country and attributed them to Europe / foreigners (when they have nothing to do with it) and willfully ignored anything positivite that has been listed (such as the free flowing trade that is WORTH BILLIONS).

Can YOU explain your reasoning? Can you explain how badly maintained roads, overcrowded classrooms, high house prices, or hospital waiting times would be magically solved by not being in the EU? Zero hour contracts, maybe? Availability of cancer therapies?

Can you explain why several other EU member countries manage to NOT have these problems at the same level we do, if it's all the fault of Europe?

I'm guessing not. Because it's all down to piss poor inefficient management OF THE UK BY THE UK. You're just taking the Farage route of using immigration and the EU as a scapegoat for absolutely everything. It becomes farcical.

[user104658]

Nope...
I'm not sure we can trust your assessment of Europe anymore Livia, you stated that the US is a bigger trading partner than the EU as part of your reasoning and have yet to even acknowledge that you were indisputably incorrect :shrug:.

[Livia]

I'm not sure we can trust your assessment of Europe anymore Livia, you stated that the US is a bigger trading partner than the EU as part of your reasoning and have yet to even acknowledge that you were indisputably incorrect :shrug:.

I'm not sure you're "discussing" anything are you TS? Looks like a long monologue of where everyone else is going wrong to me. :-)

[Nedusa]

Ffs, you have listed random negative things about the country and attributed them to Europe / foreigners (when they have nothing to do with it) and willfully ignored anything positivite that has been listed (such as the free flowing trade that is WORTH BILLIONS).

Can YOU explain your reasoning? Can you explain how badly maintained roads, overcrowded classrooms, high house prices, or hospital waiting times would be magically solved by not being in the EU? Zero hour contracts, maybe? Availability of cancer therapies?

Can you explain why several other EU member countries manage to NOT have these problems at the same level we do, if it's all the fault of Europe?

I'm guessing not. Because it's all down to piss poor inefficient management OF THE UK BY THE UK. You're just taking the Farage route of using immigration and the EU as a scapegoat for absolutely everything. It becomes farcical.

Well OK then....I see by your logic being in Europe has had no effect on lots of EU Countries good or bad, the good Countries are good and the Bad ones bad regardless of European membership.

So if we as appears to be the case are one of the bad ones.......why the hell are we paying millions of pounds to Brussells just to make our Country even worse...!!!

Would it not be better to either get out of Europe completely or throw ourselves onto the feet of the EU as the basket case we obviously are and plead for Money........lots and lots of money to rebuild our Roads, Railways, Schools, hospitals....etc....etc....

Now that would make more sense.....

[user104658]

I'm not sure you're "discussing" anything are you TS? Looks like a long monologue of where everyone else is going wrong to me. :-)
It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

[Nedusa]

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".


You make me laugh.........you really do, with your patronising , morally superior , holier than thou attitude to this whole issue.

So you think everythings great in the garden do you ? and that the Main political parties have done such a great job in the last 50 years.

Nothing is wrong, everybody's happy and Britain is Best.... you need to get out a bit more and take a look around. do you think the people who now HAVE to use food banks to survive would agree with you.

Or the people forced to queue for work or work on zero hour Contracts also share you strangely rosy view of things.

Or young people who finally find employment need to work for 30 years just to save a deposit for a house they will never get a mortgage for.

Or the vast numbers forever living on benefits........

There are real problems with this Country and they are getting worse........Fact

The Main political parties do not give a dam in reality, why would they , to them it's a big game. why do they care they are all wealthy public school educated toffs , why would they really give a stuff.

So when a new party comes along like UKIP and says in true Emporer's new clothes style.......hang on wait a minute things are actually pretty bad

There are no jobs, no houses, full to bursting hospitals, full to bursting schools, congested roads, congested railways .......and 15 Million more people than 50 years ago....that is demonstrable, real NOT imagined.

If someone stands up and says why are we paying millions into the EU and then being forced to take millions of people and feed,house,school and give them free healthcare.........then why is that treated as a joke ??

Maybe it's time for a radical shakeup of our mainstream policies.......because I don't think the ones we have been using for the last few decades are working.

[kirklancaster]

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

:nono: There are only unsubstantiated 'dubious figures' from the pro-EU lobby on here T.S., along with wildly fictional claims which have no basis in fact, such as those above; "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration."

The above claim is as you say "nonsense" but only in the context of you claiming that any of the 'anti-EU' members have stated as much, because NO ONE on here has claimed the above and I challenge you to corroborate your ludicrous statement with proof that they have.

False statements - like false claims - are easily rebutted, and it does not matter one fig how loudly or persistently such statements and claims are made, it does make them true nor persuade the intelligent reader of their validity.

I cannot believe some of the prejudiced views on here written by FM's who fervently believe that they - and only they - have a monopoly on the 'Truth' and that the rest of us are unintelligent, ill-read, naive idiots.

'Unfettered immigration' is just ONE of the reasons why I desperately want to see the UK quit the EU, but it is not THE reason as you constantly allege, and your persistent use of the term 'immigration' in your rants is 'Strawman'.

There is NOT ONE VALID reason for us to remain in the UK, but many VALID reasons for the UK to exit the EU as soon as possible because from the moment that the abhorrent and traitorous Ted Heath took us into the EU (Common Market) and deceived the nation by declaring that any fears we had that "we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty were completely unjustified", the EU has been an UNMITIGATED TROJAN HORSE of a DISASTER for this country.

If you have ONE VALID reason to support your PRO-EU stance, then please post it with corroborating evidence - genuine facts and data - and I will be really pleased to concede.

[DemolitionRed]

So where are the benefits....???? can someone list them .... Anyone.... :shrug::shrug:

I can't see you agreeing with this but allowing free movement of people within the EU has proven to be very fruitful for our economy. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of Brits work or retire to other EU countries. There are as many Brits living in other EU countries as there are EU citizens living in Britain.

The Fiscal effects of immigration is an interesting read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf

There are many benefits of remaining in the EU and they are their for you to peruse if only you are interested enough to read them.

[DemolitionRed]

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

Well said TS

[joeysteele]

And only to win votes back from UKIP.

This will be long but I don't care really.
David Cameron with most of the Conservatives are in fact conning the public on this one.
he has no intention of holding an in/out refrendum and he is also keeping very quiet,in this campaign, as to his conditions for holding one in the first place.

He has said repeatedly and from the start if 'he and the conservatives' get an 'overall' majority then he will hold one.
He knows that is unlikely, it looked unlikely when he said this almost 2 and a half years ago now.

he would need a majority even greater than he has now with the Lib Dems to fend off any revolt from those in the Conservative party who would never support a referendum being held that looked like getting a no vote or that was too close to call.
He would then simply say he hasn't the parliamentary arithmetic to get a referendum bill through.

Had he however been really serious about having one, around 2 years ago he could have gone and done his re-negotiations,whatever they are, and then at the election in May been able to announce a referendum date, he could have even held it on the same day as the election.
He is doing what he always does, procrastinate,putting things off well into the future, hoping circumstances somehow magic it away.

Furthermore, a great number of Conservative MPs would never sit alongside UKIP MPs in parliament,again that would give him his 'theme' of not being able to deliver some policies,especially his 'false' referendum.

He could split the Conservative party wide open were he to enter any arrangement with UKIP.
There are many Conservative MPs,really decent ones too, who are that pro Europe,they would never risk a referendum that could take the UK out.
He well knows that too.

The Conservative party has never held any referenda on the EU, not even when they first took us in,in 1973,only Labour have delivered a referendum on the issue, and then only likely because they were sure they would get the yes result.
The Conservatives overall were even against that one being held really.

I agree with you, a Conservative/UKIP govt; in any arrangement would be a disaster for the UK and really,for me, doesn't bear thinking about but I am sure, it will a strong element in the Conservative party that would never support that move, and many would possibly even give up the Conservative whip to vote on their conscience in parliament.

Another nail in the referendums coffin, a referendum promise that he knows he can never keep because he really doesn't want to, it was made just to satisfy the noisier more militant elements of his 'nasty' Conservative party.

Anyone voting Conservative that really believes Cameron would or could hold a referendum somewhere near 3 years down the line, are frankly in my view, living in cloud cukoo land.
He has no intention of doing so and I have believed that right from when he said it over 2 years ago now.

He is the 'absolute' prime example of a political con man and I wouldn't trust his word on a single thing and certainly not on this in/out referendum.
Even Nigel Farage has said, he wouldn't trust a thing David Cameron says, that is one of the things Nigel Farage has got spot on right.

[user104658]

You make me laugh.........you really do, with your patronising , morally superior , holier than thou attitude to this whole issue.

So you think everythings great in the garden do you ? and that the Main political parties have done such a great job in the last 50 years.

Nothing is wrong, everybody's happy and Britain is Best.... you need to get out a bit more and take a look around. do you think the people who now HAVE to use food banks to survive would agree with you.

Or the people forced to queue for work or work on zero hour Contracts also share you strangely rosy view of things.

Or young people who finally find employment need to work for 30 years just to save a deposit for a house they will never get a mortgage for.

Or the vast numbers forever living on benefits........

There are real problems with this Country and they are getting worse........Fact

The Main political parties do not give a dam in reality, why would they , to them it's a big game. why do they care they are all wealthy public school educated toffs , why would they really give a stuff.

So when a new party comes along like UKIP and says in true Emporer's new clothes style.......hang on wait a minute things are actually pretty bad

There are no jobs, no houses, full to bursting hospitals, full to bursting schools, congested roads, congested railways .......and 15 Million more people than 50 years ago....that is demonstrable, real NOT imagined.

If someone stands up and says why are we paying millions into the EU and then being forced to take millions of people and feed,house,school and give them free healthcare.........then why is that treated as a joke ??

Maybe it's time for a radical shakeup of our mainstream policies.......because I don't think the ones we have been using for the last few decades are working.
When did I say that things in the UK are great? They're not, they're ****.

I just don't buy into the propaganda that this is because of the EU or immigrants.

[user104658]

:nono: There are only unsubstantiated 'dubious figures' from the pro-EU lobby on here T.S., along with wildly fictional claims which have no basis in fact, such as those above; "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration."

The above claim is as you say "nonsense" but only in the context of you claiming that any of the 'anti-EU' members have stated as much, because NO ONE on here has claimed the above and I challenge you to corroborate your ludicrous statement with proof that they have.

False statements - like false claims - are easily rebutted, and it does not matter one fig how loudly or persistently such statements and claims are made, it does make them true nor persuade the intelligent reader of their validity.

I cannot believe some of the prejudiced views on here written by FM's who fervently believe that they - and only they - have a monopoly on the 'Truth' and that the rest of us are unintelligent, ill-read, naive idiots.

'Unfettered immigration' is just ONE of the reasons why I desperately want to see the UK quit the EU, but it is not THE reason as you constantly allege, and your persistent use of the term 'immigration' in your rants is 'Strawman'.

There is NOT ONE VALID reason for us to remain in the UK, but many VALID reasons for the UK to exit the EU as soon as possible because from the moment that the abhorrent and traitorous Ted Heath took us into the EU (Common Market) and deceived the nation by declaring that any fears we had that "we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty were completely unjustified", the EU has been an UNMITIGATED TROJAN HORSE of a DISASTER for this country.

If you have ONE VALID reason to support your PRO-EU stance, then please post it with corroborating evidence - genuine facts and data - and I will be really pleased to concede.

You're right, Livia figures weren't just dubious they were straight up false. You can verify this on the Office of national Statistics website. No articles, no propaganda, no bias, cold hard figures. The EU is our number one source of trade by a mile. Livia said it was the US. It's incorrect.

Which anti eu member has blamed every little NHS and road maintenance problem on the EU? Nedusa has, in several posts. There's one a few posts up. Have a read.

As for valid and corroborated reasons, again, the figures are right there. Unencumbered trade throughout Europe is a massive economic gain. GO and LOOK AT THE ONS DOCUMENTS. I am not going to sit and spoon feed them to you. Trade within Europe accounts for as near as half of our entire global trade, it is absolutely essential, it will continue to be absolutely essential, and being out of the EU would cost untold billions in revenue. Not one serious political party wants us out of the EU. There's a reason for that. They know what the cost would be. The only party that does want us out (ukip) has proven itself time and time again to be littered with scapegoating bigots.

[Samuel.]

Toy Soldier in any Serious Debates thread :worship:

[Nedusa]

Toy Soldier in any Serious Debates thread :worship:

That's your contribution to this debate then...???

:joker::joker:

[Nedusa]

Perhaps Toy Soldier should run for president then, he seems to have all the answers.... Lol

[joeysteele]

Nope...

Wow,I am surprised at that answer, there are rarely ever situations where there are only negatives and no positives at all.
That is something you have always said before too which I have always respected you for saying too.

There must be strong reasons why big businesses want us in the EU, just from the business angle of things.
Some aren't bothered about the EU admittedly but I feel sure you know fine well the bulk of business want the easiest access to EU markets and the UK in the EU.

You really don't believe in this world as things are,that nations are better united and connected than being separatist.
You say there are no positives at all to the EU,that is a shocker really.

For me,being part of something is far better than watching it but never having any say in it at all, and that is why with such a strong and massive place like the EU in place, I see only danger in a nation like the UK not being in it.

I also am sure you know too, that to leave but to trade with the EU, the UK would still have to accept strict EU conditions to do so but being outside we would have no control over such conditions, or how they would be applied in the future either.

[joeysteele]

Perhaps Toy Soldier should run for president then, he seems to have all the answers.... Lol

He maybe,with respect, just looks at both sides and knows things are rarely all black or white but there is lots of grey inbetween all that.
I agree with all he has said.

Nothing is all negative or all positive.

[Samuel.]

That's your contribution to this debate then...???

:joker::joker:

Indeed it is

Hope you enjoyed it

[kirklancaster]

I can't see you agreeing with this but allowing free movement of people within the EU has proven to be very fruitful for our economy. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of Brits work or retire to other EU countries. There are as many Brits living in other EU countries as there are EU citizens living in Britain.

The Fiscal effects of immigration is an interesting read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf

There are many benefits of remaining in the EU and they are their for you to peruse if only you are interested enough to read them.

From the linked website you provide above Red:

"CReAM is an independent and interdisciplinary research centre located in the Department of Economics at University College London."

Oh My!, INDEPENDENT: that means 'IMPARTIAL', 'NO VESTED INTEREST' doesn't it?

And the authors and all the reasearch staff are all intellectuals based in a British University as well.

Then, Gee, their pro-immigration 50 page investigatory Paper entitled; "THE FISCAL EFFECTS OF IMMIGRATION TO THE UK" has to be scrupulously fair, hasn't it?

What's more, its conclusion that European immigrants to the UK have paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, helping to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers and contributing to the financing of public services" must be true also.

I can't help but notice though that this 'investigatory research paper' only deals with immigration since 2005, and then only specifically with EUROPEAN immigrants, but 'Hey Ho' as my good friend Forrest says; "Independent is as impartial does".

So who are "Cream"? Let's have a look:

Christian Dustmann, Director

Jonathan Wadsworth, Deputy Director

Ian Preston, Deputy Research Director

Marco Alfano, Senior Research Officer

Thomas Cornelissen, Senior Research Officer

Anna Okatenko, Senior Research Officer

Joseph-Simon Görlach, Research Officer

Ines Helm, Research Officer

Luigi Minale, Research Officer

Anna Raute, Research Officer

Jerome Adda, Research Fellow

Samuel Berlinski, Research Fellow

Pedro Carneiro, Research Fellow

Francesco Fasani, Research Fellow

Tommaso Frattini, Research Fellow

Albrecht Glitz, Research Fellow

Steve Machin, Research Fellow

Suphanit Piyapromdee, Research Fellow

Imran Rasul, Research Fellow

Uta Schoenberg, Research Fellow

And for maximum balance, let's add 'The Coordinator',

Maria Lambrianidou

Independent/Impartial/No Vested Interest..... Mmmm. The last 'Independent' paper I read similar to this was: "Why Victorian London Needs Waif And Stray Children" and the authors were some guys called ...err... yeah that's it, Fagin and Bill Sikes.

Please excuse me while I burst into laughter, then I will post a response complete with several links to rebuttal articles - all from as equally educated and qualified academics, and with suitably impressive facts and data as the above 'independent' paper.

[empire]

the EUSSR dream is over, half of the british public need to wake up, greece, italy,spain, where the poverty rate gets higher, and higher, greece is heading for a civil war, why should any country and its people, suffer for the sake of the eu state,

[Livia]

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

Ahhh, if only we were all as enlightened and completely confident of our opinions being 100% correct like you, TS.

[Livia]

I can't see you agreeing with this but allowing free movement of people within the EU has proven to be very fruitful for our economy. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of Brits work or retire to other EU countries. There are as many Brits living in other EU countries as there are EU citizens living in Britain.

The Fiscal effects of immigration is an interesting read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf

There are many benefits of remaining in the EU and they are their for you to peruse if only you are interested enough to read them.

There are around two million Brits living and working in Europe. There are about sixty four million citizens in the UK.

It's fair to say that there are also many benefits of leaving the EU if you yourself were interested enough to read them.

[user104658]

Ahhh, if only we were all as enlightened and completely confident of our opinions being 100% correct like you, TS.
It really confuses me when people say things like this. If you aren't confident of your opinions, then why bother holding them as opinions at all? We could just have every SN&D thread start with a question or statement and then have every member come in and say "I dunno!"... But that would be pointless, boring and stupid.

I mean, I disagree with easily 80% of what Kirk has to say and literally 100% of what he has to say about terrorism, religion, the EU and immigration... And he is easily as sure of himself as I am if not moreso... But I still find many of his posts to be an interesting read.

Also... depending on the topic, you can be pretty sure of yourself too Ms Livia.

There's nothing wrong with it, I'd take it over a load of lily-livered "just my opinion and I might be wrong but it may be possible or may not but maybe..." any day.

[Josy]

3

[kirklancaster]

3

What does this mean Josy?

[GypsyGoth]

What does this mean Josy?

It;s her answer to the question in the thread title.

I think it will be 6.

[kirklancaster]

It;s her answer to the question in the thread title.

I think it will be 6.

Oh Thanks Goth. I feel like a duhbrain now. :laugh:

And I hope that your estimate is closer than Josy's .

[user104658]

Oh Thanks Goth. I feel like a duhbrain now. [emoji23] .

A Dubaian?? Come on Kirk, just because they're Mooslims doesn't mean they're stupid!

[Cherie]

3

What does this mean Josy?

:laugh: it means Josy has not lost sight of the original question

[Cherie]

A Dubaian?? Come on Kirk, just because they're Mooslims doesn't mean they're stupid!

:joker:

[Cherie]

He maybe,with respect, just looks at both sides and knows things are rarely all black or white but there is lots of grey inbetween all that.
I agree with all he has said.

Nothing is all negative or all positive.

Nicely put Joey

[DemolitionRed]

From the linked website you provide above Red:

"CReAM is an independent and interdisciplinary research centre located in the Department of Economics at University College London."

Oh My!, INDEPENDENT: that means 'IMPARTIAL', 'NO VESTED INTEREST' doesn't it?

And the authors and all the reasearch staff are all intellectuals based in a British University as well.

Then, Gee, their pro-immigration 50 page investigatory Paper entitled; "THE FISCAL EFFECTS OF IMMIGRATION TO THE UK" has to be scrupulously fair, hasn't it?

What's more, its conclusion that European immigrants to the UK have paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, helping to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers and contributing to the financing of public services" must be true also.

I can't help but notice though that this 'investigatory research paper' only deals with immigration since 2005, and then only specifically with EUROPEAN immigrants, but 'Hey Ho' as my good friend Forrest says; "Independent is as impartial does".

So who are "Cream"? Let's have a look:

Christian Dustmann, Director

Jonathan Wadsworth, Deputy Director

Ian Preston, Deputy Research Director

Marco Alfano, Senior Research Officer

Thomas Cornelissen, Senior Research Officer

Anna Okatenko, Senior Research Officer

Joseph-Simon Görlach, Research Officer

Ines Helm, Research Officer

Luigi Minale, Research Officer

Anna Raute, Research Officer

Jerome Adda, Research Fellow

Samuel Berlinski, Research Fellow

Pedro Carneiro, Research Fellow

Francesco Fasani, Research Fellow

Tommaso Frattini, Research Fellow

Albrecht Glitz, Research Fellow

Steve Machin, Research Fellow

Suphanit Piyapromdee, Research Fellow

Imran Rasul, Research Fellow

Uta Schoenberg, Research Fellow

And for maximum balance, let's add 'The Coordinator',

Maria Lambrianidou

Independent/Impartial/No Vested Interest..... Mmmm. The last 'Independent' paper I read similar to this was: "Why Victorian London Needs Waif And Stray Children" and the authors were some guys called ...err... yeah that's it, Fagin and Bill Sikes.

Please excuse me while I burst into laughter, then I will post a response complete with several links to rebuttal articles - all from as equally educated and qualified academics, and with suitably impressive facts and data as the above 'independent' paper.

I'm glad my post and link made you laugh kirk. There's not enough laughter in the world!

Goes off and has a little snigger to myself.

[the truth]

It really confuses me when people say things like this. If you aren't confident of your opinions, then why bother holding them as opinions at all? We could just have every SN&D thread start with a question or statement and then have every member come in and say "I dunno!"... But that would be pointless, boring and stupid.

I mean, I disagree with easily 80% of what Kirk has to say and literally 100% of what he has to say about terrorism, religion, the EU and immigration... And he is easily as sure of himself as I am if not moreso... But I still find many of his posts to be an interesting read.

Also... depending on the topic, you can be pretty sure of yourself too Ms Livia.

There's nothing wrong with it, I'd take it over a load of lily-livered "just my opinion and I might be wrong but it may be possible or may not but maybe..." any day.

theres endless information and different ways of looking at all these matters, to try and state such a black and white opinion comes across as immature

[kirklancaster]

I'm glad my post and link made you laugh kirk. There's not enough laughter in the world!

Goes off and has a little snigger to myself.

:laugh: I love you Red - even if we are diametrically opposed on most subjects (it seems)

p.s - There sure is a lot of good ole foreign names on that list of impartial worthies though.... Isn't there?

[kirklancaster]

A Dubaian?? Come on Kirk, just because they're Mooslims doesn't mean they're stupid!

:laugh: Only your mind could come up with that T.S.

[user104658]

theres endless information and different ways of looking at all these matters, to try and state such a black and white opinion comes across as immature
... You trollin'?

[kirklancaster]

... You trollin'?

:laugh2:

[Kizzy]

:laugh: I love you Red - even if we are diametrically opposed on most subjects (it seems)

p.s - There sure is a lot of good ole foreign names on that list of impartial worthies though.... Isn't there?

I'm waiting for the information you promised, I'm sure all the names associated will be good old English ones.

This makes an interesting read,

'Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.'


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

[Kizzy]

More info that shoots a hole in the 'health tourism' UKIP angle.

'The cost of treating British people who become ill while travelling in Europe is five times higher than the cost of treating ill visitors from other European countries in the UK, official figures show.

The Department of Health data, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, shows that it cost £30m in 2013-14 to meet the costs of European visitors using the National Health Service. This is less than one-fifth of the £155m cost to other states in the European single market for treating ill British tourists.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/treating-uk-tourists-in-europe-costs-five-times-more-than-equivalent-cost-to-nhs

[bots]

More info that shoots a hole in the 'health tourism' UKIP angle.

'The cost of treating British people who become ill while travelling in Europe is five times higher than the cost of treating ill visitors from other European countries in the UK, official figures show.

The Department of Health data, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, shows that it cost £30m in 2013-14 to meet the costs of European visitors using the National Health Service. This is less than one-fifth of the £155m cost to other states in the European single market for treating ill British tourists.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/treating-uk-tourists-in-europe-costs-five-times-more-than-equivalent-cost-to-nhs


Also put that 30 million into the perspective of the annual nhs budget which I believe is over 95 billion. Its not even going to dent our deficit which would be the only reason for restricting who medical treatment is provided to.

[Kizzy]

UKIPs popularity is on the wane, they are a bit of a one trick pony ...do they even have a manifesto yet?

I had no idea Al Murray was standing in south Thanet :laugh:
http://i.guim.co.uk/media/w-620/h--/q-95/05a3714dae64c5201f07922e98b2475b1f1d4148/0_41_3500_2561/1000.jpg

[Cherie]

I'm waiting for the information you promised, I'm sure all the names associated will be good old English ones.

This makes an interesting read,

'Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.'


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu


An interesting read, what does Farage and his cronies plan to do with all those expats who will become foreigners in their adopted land should we exit the EU I wonder?


Kirk?? you know alot about their proposals has this been addressed?

[Kizzy]

They'll become 2 million illegal immigrants overseas, I think that's as far as the plans have gotten so far.

[Nedusa]

UKIPs popularity is on the wane, they are a bit of a one trick pony ...do they even have a manifesto yet?

I had no idea Al Murray was standing in south Thanet :laugh:
http://i.guim.co.uk/media/w-620/h--/q-95/05a3714dae64c5201f07922e98b2475b1f1d4148/0_41_3500_2561/1000.jpg

People in Scotland used to say that about the SNP as well.

[Kizzy]

People in Scotland used to say that about the SNP as well.

That their only policy was immigration?

[Nedusa]

That their only policy was immigration?

No...the bit in bold.

[the truth]

I don't really care that much about immigration, certainly not here in rural wales where frankly they could do with a bit more population whether that comes from immigration fair enough. but Europe is the real key issue for me. its an unquantifiable disaster. ask the truck drivers the bus drivers as the delivery drivers train drivers minibus and taxi drivers. the rules and regulations are insane. I dare anyone here to try and understand all of the rules on drivers , the tachos the disks the sheets the check lists the downloads the weights and measures, the torque rules the drivers hours rules, the rest rules etc etc then look into how different countries adhere to these endless rules and how others do not and the different fines for different offences in different areas etc INSANE

[user104658]

I don't really care that much about immigration, certainly not here in rural wales where frankly they could do with a bit more population whether that comes from immigration fair enough. but Europe is the real key issue for me. its an unquantifiable disaster. ask the truck drivers the bus drivers as the delivery drivers train drivers minibus and taxi drivers. the rules and regulations are insane. I dare anyone here to try and understand all of the rules on drivers , the tachos the disks the sheets the check lists the downloads the weights and measures, the torque rules the drivers hours rules, the rest rules etc etc then look into how different countries adhere to these endless rules and how others do not and the different fines for different offences in different areas etc INSANE
So it would be easier for truckers travelling internationally to have to learn the individual rules of every single nation they pass through? Which might be completely different upon crossing each border?

I'm not saying you're wrong about there being too much red tape but this is the sort of problem that can only be solved from within. Not by picking up your ball and going home. Many truckers travel throughout Europe and are still going to be subject to EU regulations as soon as they leave the UK... Presumably.

[user104658]

People in Scotland used to say that about the SNP as well.
Only in the sense that the SNP's primary reason for existence (firstly independence, but in absence of that fighting for Scotland within the UK) would be nullified if independence was achieved... But it hasn't been.

[the truth]

So it would be easier for truckers travelling internationally to have to learn the individual rules of every single nation they pass through? Which might be completely different upon crossing each border?

I'm not saying you're wrong about there being too much red tape but this is the sort of problem that can only be solved from within. Not by picking up your ball and going home. Many truckers travel throughout Europe and are still going to be subject to EU regulations as soon as they leave the UK... Presumably.

I disagree 100% its now a mishmash of all rules from all over the place bits and pieces of vetos here and there different countries adhere others don't, its a joke. in the end the sheer mass of rules and red tape has made it impossible to run these busiensses and its getting worse. this is why all but 2 European nations in the eu are going to the wall. its an unmitigated disaster

[joeysteele]

So it would be easier for truckers travelling internationally to have to learn the individual rules of every single nation they pass through? Which might be completely different upon crossing each border?

I'm not saying you're wrong about there being too much red tape but this is the sort of problem that can only be solved from within. Not by picking up your ball and going home. Many truckers travel throughout Europe and are still going to be subject to EU regulations as soon as they leave the UK... Presumably.

Really good post again TS.

[the truth]

Really good post again TS.

no it made no sense at all. youre just sticking to your talking points and refusing to actually think and acknowledge the disastrous effects of the wasteful mindless impractical bankrupt unaccountable unaccounted superstate of the European union. the time has come to deal with real politics as theyre about to run out of other peoples money

[Northern Monkey]

3 at a push i'd say.

[Josy]

After last night I think LT will be the only person in Scotland voting for them

[arista]

After last night I think LT will be the only person in Scotland voting for them


Not everyone watched that



It will be more than just LT.
Be Fair Josy

[Crimson Dynamo]

They could have put someone better up than that buffoon last night

He was almost as bad as the labour guy..

[billy123]

What a shame bye bye silly kippers and good riddance!! BNP lite are failing :joker::joker::joker::joker::joker:

Fresh blow for Farage as Ukip support more the HALVES in key battleground constituencies
Ukip's support has fallen in nine out of 10 marginal seats, poll shows
Support for Nigel Farage's party has more than halved in two seats
Comes after leaked poll showed the Ukip leader on course to lose in Thanet
Nationwide support for Ukip has fallen by 25% over the last six months


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3030731/Fresh-blow-Farage-Ukip-support-HALVES-key-battleground-constituencies.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/08/17/27608B7E00000578-0-image-a-78_1428510639818.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/08/17/27608B7700000578-0-image-a-79_1428510654130.jpg

[Crimson Dynamo]

What a shame bye bye silly kippers and good riddance!! BNP lite are failing :joker::joker::joker::joker::joker:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3030731/Fresh-blow-Farage-Ukip-support-HALVES-key-battleground-constituencies.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/08/17/27608B7E00000578-0-image-a-78_1428510639818.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/08/17/27608B7700000578-0-image-a-79_1428510654130.jpg



a poll from the daily mail who support the Conservatives?

:laugh2:

[arista]

Yes Strange that Bob
Loves the DM
all of a sudden

[billy123]

a poll from the daily mail who support the Conservatives?

:laugh2:

Yes Strange that Bob
Loves the DM
all of a sudden
Such silliness tell me when i find a source saying the same thing that meets your approval because thats important isnt it :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/08/uk-britain-election-poll-idUKKBN0MZ1QT20150408
http://rt.com/uk/247801-ukip-britain-first-pact/
http://www.cityam.com/213276/lord-ashcroft-marginals-poll-ukip-vote-share-drops-10-points-conservative-held-seats
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/04/ashcroft-marginal-polls-show-tory-labour-races-remain-tight-and-ukip-is-falling-behind/
http://news.google.com/news/url?sr=1&sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_6_0_t&usg=AFQjCNEb_dWYjXr1S0rhW9DxRrUHema-MA&did=eb7a8df66f03d290&cid=52778798936409&ei=lCsmVZjQNoeFiAaUxYGgBg&rt=STORY&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2Farticl es%2F2015-04-08%2Fukip-support-falling-in-marginal-tory-seats-ashcroft-poll-shows
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-08/ukip-support-falling-in-marginal-tory-seats-ashcroft-poll-shows
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11511515/Nigel-Farage-says-Ukips-popularity-is-falling.html
http://www.theweek.co.uk/election-polls/63218/ukip-buries-poll-that-shows-farage-could-lose-on-7-may
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3010228/Tories-Labour-neck-neck-Ukip-support-slips-Parties-level-35-backing-Farage-falls-lowest-level-2013-just-10.html

[Crimson Dynamo]

Such silliness tell me when i find a source saying the same thing that meets your approval because thats important isnt it :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/08/uk-britain-election-poll-idUKKBN0MZ1QT20150408
http://rt.com/uk/247801-ukip-britain-first-pact/
http://www.cityam.com/213276/lord-ashcroft-marginals-poll-ukip-vote-share-drops-10-points-conservative-held-seats
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/04/ashcroft-marginal-polls-show-tory-labour-races-remain-tight-and-ukip-is-falling-behind/
http://news.google.com/news/url?sr=1&sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_6_0_t&usg=AFQjCNEb_dWYjXr1S0rhW9DxRrUHema-MA&did=eb7a8df66f03d290&cid=52778798936409&ei=lCsmVZjQNoeFiAaUxYGgBg&rt=STORY&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2Farticl es%2F2015-04-08%2Fukip-support-falling-in-marginal-tory-seats-ashcroft-poll-shows

Bob, polls are polls

wait a few days for the next to arrive to suit your political taste

[kirklancaster]

Yes Strange that Bob
Loves the DM
all of a sudden

:joker:

"The Truth Is Out There Mulder."

"Yeah, Scully - I know, but I only read the Daily Mail".

:joker:

[kirklancaster]

Such silliness tell me when i find a source saying the same thing that meets your approval because thats important isnt it :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/08/uk-britain-election-poll-idUKKBN0MZ1QT20150408
http://rt.com/uk/247801-ukip-britain-first-pact/
http://www.cityam.com/213276/lord-ashcroft-marginals-poll-ukip-vote-share-drops-10-points-conservative-held-seats
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/04/ashcroft-marginal-polls-show-tory-labour-races-remain-tight-and-ukip-is-falling-behind/
http://news.google.com/news/url?sr=1&sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_6_0_t&usg=AFQjCNEb_dWYjXr1S0rhW9DxRrUHema-MA&did=eb7a8df66f03d290&cid=52778798936409&ei=lCsmVZjQNoeFiAaUxYGgBg&rt=STORY&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2Farticl es%2F2015-04-08%2Fukip-support-falling-in-marginal-tory-seats-ashcroft-poll-shows

They may all well be right Bob, we'll have to wait and see, but I think it's a great shame if they prove correct.

By the way - I love your emoticons for LT.:joker::joker::joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03258/election-farage_3258283b.jpg



Mr Farage painted a positive picture of a ComRes poll published in the Mail on Sunday which suggested Mr Farage might not win the South Thanet seat on May 7.

He admitted that he was “aware” of the poll, which had been funded by a donor, but said that it “showed us five points ahead on the raw data – I would like it to be more than that clearly.

“The raw data had us ahead but not as far ahead as a previous poll that was conducted six to eight weeks before that.”


He described Ukip’s support as going in “peaks and troughs”, adding: “Share prices have peaks and troughs, we all have peaks and troughs.

“Over the last week we have seen consolidation and Ukip start to rise again. Can we generate the level of excitement to get us up to the kind of numbers that we hit last November.”

He added: “There is no election in history where we have not dipped after an election.

“Even going right back to much smaller numbers we have generally had run ups to polls and then dips and declines afterwards.”


Good article ^^ with Nigel and support - all info here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/11519587/Nigel-Farage-Ukip-support-has-slipped-back-seven-months.html

[billy123]

They may all well be right Bob, we'll have to wait and see, but I think it's a great shame if they prove correct.

By the way - I love your emoticons for LT.:joker::joker::joker:I think it is a great shame that it has once again become a two party race Kirk but i wont be sad to see the demise of UKIP they really aren't a viable other option for me and i wont be sad to see them vanish.
But horses for courses it would be boring if we all agreed.
As for the emoticon i dont even know what its called i just think of it as the trumpet/the truth emoticon :joker:

[kirklancaster]

I think it is a great shame that it has once again become a two party race Kirk but i wont be sad to see the demise of UKIP they really aren't a viable other option for me and i wont be sad to see them vanish.
But horses for courses it would be boring if we all agreed.
As for the emoticon i dont even know what its called i just think of it as the trumpet/the truth emoticon :joker:

:joker:

[joeysteele]

If we see any more of the guy for UKIP that was on the Scottish debate last night, then UKIP would be lucky to hold either of the seats they currently have.

[Kizzy]

Yey I don't want Pudsey tory led get him out! ( he's the guy that was punched in the commons bar) that's how popular he is there, and less here.
Loving the realisation about UKIP and the support here for the Greens :)

[Nedusa]

Only in the sense that the SNP's primary reason for existence (firstly independence, but in absence of that fighting for Scotland within the UK) would be nullified if independence was achieved... But it hasn't been.

Yet......:blush:

[user104658]

Yet......:blush:
We can but dream! I actually think if independence did happen, within a couple of decades it would mainly be contested by a couple of brand new parties. One would most likely be the SNP under a different banner, though. But they would need a new battle cry...

[Crimson Dynamo]

We can but dream! I actually think if independence did happen, within a couple of decades it would mainly be contested by a couple of brand new parties. One would most likely be the SNP under a different banner, though. But they would need a new battle cry...

"death to England"

?

[Nedusa]

We can but dream! I actually think if independence did happen, within a couple of decades it would mainly be contested by a couple of brand new parties. One would most likely be the SNP under a different banner, though. But they would need a new battle cry...

Funnily enough I was listening to the radio earlier today and they were discussing the longer term motives of the SNP. Assuming they get 40+ MP's in Westminster they will seek to raise the question of Independance again within a few years. Now Nicola Sturgeon will never admit to that but that is their raison d'etre and no matter how they disguise it they are working towards a "Yes" vote sooner rather than later.

[Helen 28]

Funnily enough I was listening to the radio earlier today and they were discussing the longer term motives of the SNP. Assuming they get 40+ MP's in Westminster they will seek to raise the question of Independance again within a few years. Now Nicola Sturgeon will never admit to that but that is their raison d'etre and no matter how they disguise it they are working towards a "Yes" vote sooner rather than later.

Isn't that obvious, the SNP only exists for one thing only and that's to break away from the rest of the UK, they are totally a one policy party.

If it wasn't achievable there would be no point in carrying on.

[user104658]

Isn't that obvious, the SNP only exists for one thing only and that's to break away from the rest of the UK, they are totally a one policy party.

If it wasn't achievable there would be no point in carrying on.
I don't think that's necessarily true, they have a proven record in a position of power, they're not a wishy-washy "all talk" party like UKIP or the Greens these days (big ideas for policies but currently all hypothetical). In the absence of independence their goal is putting local concerns of Scottish people first, and IMO they have been doing so since they got into power in Edinburgh.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The SNP do a very good job of running Scotland and are very popular

[the truth]

Scotland gdp 216 billion wales gdp 50 billion uk 2.7 trillion
scots 20100 gvp per head England 21,900 per head, wales 15,000 per head northern irish 16,000 per head
uenployment in Scotland 5.9% in wales 7% in England I cant find the figure? bound to be below uk average of 5.7%
so yes scots seem to be doing ok, welsh falling further behind , England doing stronger as always

[Withano]

theres vast enormous under current of support for farage
the vast majority agree with him but are too scared to admit it in public , but will admit it in private.

I disagree, I think UKIP voters are extremely vocal, doubt there's many hidden UKIP voters out there.
And to answer your question, too many seats. Like 2 or 3. Far too many.

[joeysteele]

The SNP do a very good job of running Scotland and are very popular

I generally avoid replying to you like the plague but I have to jump in here and say this is something I 100% agree with you on.

I think they have actually shown the UK the way to govern in a way that is for all,they would get my vote if I lived in Scotland for sure.
Both Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon in my view, are committed and competent politicians and it is a good thing both have become leaders of their country too as to governing.

[user104658]

The SNP do a very good job of running Scotland and are very popular
Yes, I know for a fact that there are people who did not vote for independence but would happily still vote SNP for the party in charge of Scotland under devolution.

Many "no" voters who would have voted for DevoMax, too, which IMO is what the whole of the UK actually needs to survive as one nation. It's not working as it is, one size doesn't fit all, the right policies for the center of London read like madness when you try to apply them to a rural village or remote island community, or even to mid-sized towns further North. It's working relatively well in Scotland because 6 million people is a reasonable number of people to "get things right" for... 60 million is just not. It's inevitable that it'll go badly wrong for many, and it is.

[user104658]

Scotland gdp 216 billion wales gdp 50 billion uk 2.7 trillion
scots 20100 gvp per head England 21,900 per head, wales 15,000 per head northern irish 16,000 per head
uenployment in Scotland 5.9% in wales 7% in England I cant find the figure? bound to be below uk average of 5.7%
so yes scots seem to be doing ok, welsh falling further behind , England doing stronger as always
Take city-state London out of the equation and your figures are ****ed.

[empire]

a large amount of people, have had enough of the establishment parties, the church is being bullied into the hole gay marriage, but the muslim and hindu/sikh faiths are not being forced to do the same thing, nigel farage is right about the equality laws, need scraped, where is it fair that one faith has to be forced by some law to do this, where other faiths get the tip toe treatment,