Do the Tories pose a threat to NHS?

[DemolitionRed]

This is a very enlightening film that I watched around 6 months ago. Its about a group of doctors trying to save the NHS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ultKvnw2h3Q

Whilst the Conservatives are presently accusing Labour of a 'stitch up', Dr Clare Geranda, a former chairman of the Royal College of GPs - accused the Tories of 'denationalising healthcare'.

Is the fault line too fractured to repair or are we about to witness the American version of medicine on our doorstep?

[joeysteele]

Yes they do and anyone who cares for the NHS and its basic principles 'for all' who trust it to this Conservative leader and his govt; again are in my view, making a massive error.

[Crimson Dynamo]

No, inefficiency and waste is the main danger

[user104658]

"pose a threat"? They've already destroyed it.

[JoshBB]

Yes they do. Crippling austerity has been awful for the public services. If they win another election I fear we are a step even further to privatisation.

[Crimson Dynamo]

"pose a threat"? They've already destroyed it.


well I was in there with my dad a few weeks back and all seemed well in a brand new hospital

:rolleyes:

[Pete.]

No, Labour would destroy it howeva

[joeysteele]

"pose a threat"? They've already destroyed it.

pretty much, they have got it near run down in the last 5 years again that it took them 18 years to do before.

All ready to bring in nice and cheaply private concerns to 'relieve' the financial burden of the NHS on the State.

5 more years with this PM and his extreme cabinet in charge of it and it will be unrecognisable, in my view,in a very bad way for those who would be unable to pay for healthcare.

Cameron lied in 2010 as to the NHS and he should never be believed on it again after that disastrous, not voted for, not supported and imposed top down re-organisation, which he said would never happen under his govt:

A total political liar, who should never be trusted again with the NHS.

[hijaxers]

well I was in there with my dad a few weeks back and all seemed well in a brand new hospital

:rolleyes:

That would be a hospital labour built would it ?

[hijaxers]

No, Labour would destroy it howeva

What total tripe

[Crimson Dynamo]

That would be a hospital labour built would it ?

well its just few years old and i think it was Balfour Beatty

[user104658]

well I was in there with my dad a few weeks back and all seemed well in a brand new hospital

:rolleyes:
It's not just going to close over night, it's a behemoth, it's death rattle will last decades. The current government has set events in motion that will result in the gradual dismantling of the NHS. Events that are unstoppable now. So like I said: it's already destroyed.

I would also point out that the Scottish have been sheltered from a lot of it because significant portions of NHS Scotland (which is run separately to the rest of the NHS) operate under devolved powers.

[Crimson Dynamo]

another reason to vote SNP

[Kizzy]

pretty much, they have got it near run down in the last 5 years again that it took them 18 years to do before.

All ready to bring in nice and cheaply private concerns to 'relieve' the financial burden of the NHS on the State.

5 more years with this PM and his extreme cabinet in charge of it and it will be unrecognisable, in my view,in a very bad way for those who would be unable to pay for healthcare.

Cameron lied in 2010 as to the NHS and he should never be believed on it again after that disastrous, not voted for, not supported and imposed top down re-organisation, which he said would never happen under his govt:

A total political liar, who should never be trusted again with the NHS.

100% agree Joey, and I would say DR that that is how I would describe it too, denationalisation.

[user104658]

well its just few years old and i think it was Balfour Beatty
Unless it was thrown together in record time, then I would think planning and construction must have started earlier than 2010.

[JoshBB]

No, Labour would destroy it howeva

How and why would they? They even created it.

[arista]

"pose a threat"? They've already destroyed it.



Wrong New Labours Browns Evil PFI
did


FACT

[JoshBB]

Wrong New Labours Browns Evil PFI
did


FACT

Just because you yell FACT doesn't change that what you just said was an opinion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Wrong New Labours Browns Evil PFI
did


FACT

:clap1:

[arista]

Just because you yell FACT doesn't change that what you just said was an opinion.


You are young


But New Labour
set up High Pay back PFI Loans
on Hospitals

That Stinks

[Kizzy]

Wrong New Labours Browns Evil PFI
did


FACT

Nope,

PFI uses private money for major public sector capital projects. The private company builds and owns the facility, which is then leased back to the state, in exchange for regular repayments. It was initiated in the UK by John Major's government in 1992 - but was expanded under Labour after 1997. The first project operational is the Severn River crossings, which started operating in April 1992.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/05/pfi-contracts-list

[arista]

:clap1:


Yes Evil thing to do
on hospitals

[Crimson Dynamo]

Nope,

PFI uses private money for major public sector capital projects. The private company builds and owns the facility, which is then leased back to the state, in exchange for regular repayments. It was initiated in the UK by John Major's government in 1992 - but was expanded under Labour after 1997. The first project operational is the Severn River crossings, which started operating in April 1992.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/05/pfi-contracts-list

source

the guardian


:laugh2:

[arista]

Nope,

PFI uses private money for major public sector capital projects. The private company builds and owns the facility, which is then leased back to the state, in exchange for regular repayments. It was initiated in the UK by John Major's government in 1992 - but was expanded under Labour after 1997. The first project operational is the Severn River crossings, which started operating in April 1992.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/05/pfi-contracts-list


Yes but New Labour
made it far worse
Fecking Fact

[Kizzy]

source

the guardian


:laugh2:

What's the issue with the Guardian?...

[arista]

What's the issue with the Guardian?...


I find them Fine
Telling us about Ed Balls Feck Up today

[Crimson Dynamo]

What's the issue with the Guardian?...

https://jameshallisy.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/october-propaganda-poster.jpg

[the truth]

the mass of abuses and cover ups and innocenents starving to death in hospitals all happened under labours watch...the filth the record mrsa all happened under labour the near bankruptcy labour....just look what welsh labour gets away with in wales...welsh labour have reduced their nhs budget, the uk tory government has increased it. at present id trust the tories marginally more than labour with the nhs but I don't trust the tories either

[Crimson Dynamo]

the mass of abuses and cover ups and innocenents starving to death in hospitals all happened under labours watch...the filth the record mrsa all happened under labour the near bankruptcy labour....just look what welsh labour gets away with in wales...welsh labour have reduced their nhs budget, the uk tory government has increased it. at present id trust the tories marginally more than labour with the nhs but I don't trust the tories either

:clap1:

[kirklancaster]

Just because you yell FACT doesn't change that what you just said was an opinion.

No Josh - There is a wealth of difference between FACT and opinion.

When I state that both Labour and Tory Governments have regularly reneged on pre-Election promises or even done complete 'U' turns -- that is a FACT.

But those who state what Nigel Farage and UKIP will do if they ever attained power -- That is opinion, and not even qualified opinion at that.

[bots]

This kind of scaremongering talk always come up.

How many Conservative governments have been in office over the lifetime of the NHS. Has any one of them even attempted to remove the intrinsic right of the individual to free health care?

The NHS is the biggest sink for money in the UK. It always becomes bloated with bureaucrats when labour are in power and trimmed of those same bureaucrats when the tories are in power. Approaches may be different between governments and the NHS may need to evolve to stay modern, but it isn't going anywhere and the tories are no threat to it at all.

[Kizzy]

I'm not sure what the inference that huuuuuge picture has for you LT, what in your opinion wold be a legitimate media source?

[Livia]

This kind of scaremongering talk always come up.

How many Conservative governments have been in office over the lifetime of the NHS. Has any one of them even attempted to remove the intrinsic right of the individual to free health care?

The NHS is the biggest sink for money in the UK. It always becomes bloated with bureaucrats when labour are in power and trimmed of those same bureaucrats when the tories are in power. Approaches may be different between governments and the NHS may need to evolve to stay modern, but it isn't going anywhere and the tories are no threat to it at all.

A lot of truths in there, bitontheslide.

[Kizzy]

This kind of scaremongering talk always come up.

How many Conservative governments have been in office over the lifetime of the NHS. Has any one of them even attempted to remove the intrinsic right of the individual to free health care?

The NHS is the biggest sink for money in the UK. It always becomes bloated with bureaucrats when labour are in power and trimmed of those same bureaucrats when the tories are in power. Approaches may be different between governments and the NHS may need to evolve to stay modern, but it isn't going anywhere and the tories are no threat to it at all.

They are a threat, outsourcing is so covert, selling the juicy contracts isn't modernising.

[joeysteele]

I don't think it would be in any way fair to say that Conservative govts; or Conservative PMs since it was created have been any threat to the basic foundations of the NHS until recent ones.

Margaret Thatcher presided over a massive run down of the NHS, to be fair to him,John Major tried to turn the tide but by the time he was PM the NHS was on its knees and really broken.

However, this PM we have now, leads one of the nastiest govts; ever post war,when he says something about the NHS,his actions towards it contradict all he says.

He promised, no top down re-organisation on the NHS.
Then at a time when he was bringing in austerity measures, he wasted funds on a costly top down re-organisation that has caused confusion, massive problems and despair almost among NHS staff.
This PM is not to be trusted, there has always been elements of some parties to alter the NHS and healthcare to a more 'private' means.

This for me, is for sure, one Conservative PM who is really dangerous to the NHS and should never, after already breaking his promise as to it, be allowed to preside over it ever again.
Somehow, I felt I couldn't trust his word in 2010 when he said it was safe with him and that there would be no top down re-organisation.
I am really glad I didn't trust him, since even though he failed to win an overall majority and hadn't the policy in his manifesto, so no voter got the chance to vote for or against it, he went ahead and did that top down re-organisation.
One of the biggest upheavals in the NHS for decades.

He had no permission and no authority to do it,but did anyway.
The man has to,for me, take the title for being the biggest of political liars and con men in politics today.
I wouldn't trust him to bring a bedpan never mind oversee the NHS for 5 more years.

He is actually a disgrace to the decent Conservative PMs gone before him.

[JoshBB]

All I can say leathertrumpet is WOW you are not ready to hear about the morning star :joker:

[Kazanne]

The NHS is quite safe in Tory hands imo,it may have changes along the way ,but it will still be there ,oppositions just scaremongering.

[Vicky.]

Depends really. If you have enough cash to pay for treatment, then no need to worry

[JoshBB]

The NHS is quite safe in Tory hands imo,it may have changes along the way ,but it will still be there ,oppositions just scaremongering.

Depends really. If you have enough cash to pay for treatment, then no need to worry

I use vicky's post in response to yours Kazanne. :laugh:

[joeysteele]

The NHS is quite safe in Tory hands imo,it may have changes along the way ,but it will still be there ,oppositions just scaremongering.

Really, I have an Uncle who is a consultant in the NHS, 2 Cousins who are Doctors and also cousins who are Nurses,spanning right from Inverness in Scotland, right down to Exeter..
All of them. not a dissenting voice among them, have said to me, if the Conservatives run the NHS for another 5 years,watch out because chaos is looming and it will be disastrous.

The 3 who are Doctors voted Conservative in 2010 and for the very first time in their voting lives will not be doing so in May.

I prefer to listen to those who are battling to save lives and who actually work in the NHS,rather than a political liar like David Cameron who has turned the NHS almost upside down, creating confusion and disarray for NHS staff with a massive costly and unnecessary but very wrong top down re-organisation of same,which he 'promised' never to do then did so less than a year later.

I say again, anyone who genuinely cares about the NHS and its real founding principles,if you decide to hand it over again to this particular Conservative leader,who cannot be trusted with it, and this Conservative cabinet,then don't be surprised or moan when you see it near destroyed as to what it should be or what it originally stood for.
Finally if that happens,that he does get his hands on it for another 5 years, then in all truth, god and all powers that be really help those most vulnerable and those who cannot afford to pay anything as to full and proper health care.

I'll take the word of my family who work there and who try to remain dedicated even against the odds stacked against them by this govts; policies anyday, over the man who deliberately conned the voters in 2010 over a top down re-organisation which he said would never happen under his govt:
No one can say they didn't see the writing on the wall,or that they haven't been warned.
What he would have done with the NHS had he got an overall majority in 2010,doesn't bear thinking about.

[bots]

Really, I have an Uncle who is a consultant in the NHS, 2 Cousins who are Doctors and also cousins who are Nurses,spanning right from Inverness in Scotland, right down to Exeter..
All of them. not a dissenting voice among them, have said to me, if the Conservatives run the NHS for another 5 years,watch out because chaos is looming and it will be disastrous.

The 3 who are Doctors voted Conservative in 2010 and for the very first time in their voting lives will not be doing so in May.

I prefer to listen to those who are battling to save lives and who actually work in the NHS,rather than a political liar like David Cameron who has turned the NHS almost upside down, creating confusion and disarray for NHS staff with a massive costly and unnecessary but very wrong top down re-organisation of same,which he 'promised' never to do then did so less than a year later.

I say again, anyone who genuinely cares about the NHS and its real founding principles,if you decide to hand it over again to this particular Conservative leader,who cannot be trusted with it, and this Conservative cabinet,then don't be surprised or moan when you see it near destroyed as to what it should be or what it originally stood for.
Finally if that happens,that he does get his hands on it for another 5 years, then in all truth, god and all powers that be really help those most vulnerable and those who cannot afford to pay anything as to full and proper health care.

I'll take the word of my family who work there and who try to remain dedicated even against the odds stacked against them by this govts; policies anyday, over the man who deliberately conned the voters in 2010 over a top down re-organisation which he said would never happen under his govt:
No one can say they didn't see the writing on the wall,or that they haven't been warned.
What he would have done with the NHS had he got an overall majority in 2010,doesn't bear thinking about.

Honestly, Joey, I think you are letting your hatred for 1 person cloud your judgement. Believe it or not David Cameron is not some hitler type dictator figure, his actions are dictated by policy and by party members.

I get it, you don't like the tories, that's fine, but making costs saving in a huge money pit is absolutely the right and proper thing to do. Its how the NHS will evolve to best suit needs in the future. As to people that work in areas that are undergoing change, its never pleasant, they will always resist it and say things were better in the old days - they rarely were btw - rose coloured spectacles 99% of the time

[Kizzy]

'Labour has accused the government of trying to sneak out legislation to accelerate the privatisation of NHS services.

Andy Burnham, the shadow health secretary, said regulations tabled in parliament on 6 February without any government announcement would force all contracts worth more than £625,000 to be put out to tender.

At health questions in the Commons on Tuesday, Burnham revealed the existence of the new public procurement contracts regulations, which he said had been “sneaked out” the day before MPs’ recent parliamentary recess began.

The rules mean that from April 2016 all NHS contracts worth more than €750,000 (£625,000) must be put out to tender, Labour said. Non-NHS organisations, including private health companies such as Virgin Care and Ramsay Health Care will be eligible to bid.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/24/coalition-sneaking-out-regulations-to-speed-up-nhs-privatisation-labour-says

[user104658]

Honestly, Joey, I think you are letting your hatred for 1 person cloud your judgement. Believe it or not David Cameron is not some hitler type dictator figure, his actions are dictated by policy and by party members.

I get it, you don't like the tories, that's fine, but making costs saving in a huge money pit is absolutely the right and proper thing to do. Its how the NHS will evolve to best suit needs in the future. As to people that work in areas that are undergoing change, its never pleasant, they will always resist it and say things were better in the old days - they rarely were btw - rose coloured spectacles 99% of the time

The NHS is being systematically dismantled and privatised to be bought up by connected individuals in return for kickbacks. Not to make it better.

[bots]

The NHS is being systematically dismantled and privatised to be bought up by connected individuals in return for kickbacks. Not to make it better.

With respect that's a completely irrelevant statement. It matters not 1 jot if the NHS is restructured and parts privatised, if it makes the service better equipped to meet the needs of the future.

[Kizzy]

Letter from senior health professionals says coalition has left NHS in weakest position ever and calls on people to use votes to reinstate service
(Read the letter in full)
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/senior-doctors-assess-governments-record-on-nhs-letter-in-full
Leading doctors in the NHS have accused the coalition government of a catalogue of broken promises, funding cuts and destructive legislation which has left the health service weaker than ever before.

'In a letter to the Guardian, more than 140 senior doctors pass a damning judgment on the government’s stewardship of the NHS, which they say is under pressure because of unnecessary market-oriented changes.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/more-than-100-top-doctors-attack-government-record-on-nhs

[DemolitionRed]

I really wanted to get my teeth into this debate, unfortunately I have a bit of a family crisis to deal with.

Hopefully I'll make it back in time to join in.

[user104658]

With respect that's a completely irrelevant statement. It matters not 1 jot if the NHS is restructured and parts privatised, if it makes the service better equipped to meet the needs of the future.

It does meet the Tories' needs for the future, I suppose. "Hey guys I've had a great idea! If we make sure all of the poor people die young, then we won't have to worry about their pensions!"

And if their billionaire buddies in private healthcare and pharmaceuticals can make some extra £££ from it... bonus, amirite?

[joeysteele]

Honestly, Joey, I think you are letting your hatred for 1 person cloud your judgement. Believe it or not David Cameron is not some hitler type dictator figure, his actions are dictated by policy and by party members.

I get it, you don't like the tories, that's fine, but making costs saving in a huge money pit is absolutely the right and proper thing to do. Its how the NHS will evolve to best suit needs in the future. As to people that work in areas that are undergoing change, its never pleasant, they will always resist it and say things were better in the old days - they rarely were btw - rose coloured spectacles 99% of the time

No way, even today those who work in the NHS have said publicly the NHS is not safe.

There is nothing wrong with change,all things have to evolve, once something starts to be run down to the degree where it is really broken, then needs massive financial help,that is what will happen with the NHS under this PMs policies and open the door to private health care with a basic health programme left for those unable to pay for treatment.

He has lied consistently as to the NHS,I am passionate about it because I have family working in it and I hear all the time their fears and genuine concerns for its and their futures.

I do not hate the Tories, I joined here in 2010 and was a supporter of them at that time really.
It was that I have seen this particular PM do and his govt; not only to the NHS but to those sick,disabled, and most vulnerable, that has turned me right against him and this particular govt; he leads.

He hasn't saved costs,he has spent loads on the top down re-organisation that has caused near chaos in the NHS, his targets on cancer care, waiting times are all being missed.
Under Labour knee,hip, and cataract operations had been brought down to a matter of weeks, now people with those problems,who are in the main elderly, are again waiting months as they were in the late 80s to the mid 90s.
The successes he has had as to treatments have been at a cost to those conditions being sidlelined to play catch up on.

Eventually,that is going to come to a head if its allowed to get even worse and that is when I believe, he would bring in full private healthcare but it would have to be paid for, and I believe by the patients that need it.

He lied, I hate liars and especially when they do so and win the trust of people then do the total opposite.
That is how I see him, I really intensely dislike him as a politician because to me he has shown he cannot and should not be trusted.his word being meaningless.
I think David Cameron is the poorest and worst leader the Conservative party has ever had.
There are loads of Conservative MPs, I have regard and respect for and have said so many times but not him, for me he has tainted the office of Prime Minister and I am just glad I wasn't one who believed his promise on the NHS in 2010.
Even though for my sins I trusted someone else who I shouldn't have who the supported the bulk of this NHS re-organisation that has cost loads to do.

As I said, I will take the word of those I know who work in the NHS, such as my family, who if you think I am angry, then you should hear them,because most of them did trust him and badly regret doing so now.

However,give him another 5 years with the NHS,then let you and I come back to this then or even before as the NHS is dismantled beyond all recognition, you can believe that won't happen, I am prepared to take the sound word of others,in the know, that it already is.

He won't get the chance from me to carry on with it,no way.
At least I will be able to say I saw his hidden agenda and wouldn't give him the chance,my conscience will be then clear.

However the NHS and those who need it but have no means to pay for health,will, I firmly believe be the ones to pay a heavy price, for this PM being allowed to go ahead with not only his future plans but to also implement all the other main parts of the re-organisation he wanted to include,which were so bad even the Lib Dems refused to support them,which he had to put on the shelf for this parliament.

I have no problem withthe Conservatives at all, as I said in a post above but I do have massive problems with this Conservative leader; and the way he has conducted this govt; he leads.
I am furious he has got away with so muchas to what he has so far done to the NHS.

I am also one who believes the NHS should be removed from the political arena and have said so many times,even on here.
Labour and the Lib Dems were trying to have concensus on the NHS in 2009/10, the only person who didn't want that was Andrew Lansley the Conservative shadow health minister at the time.
I still hope for that concensus but it will never come from this PM and this present Conservative govt:

Anyway I am entitled if I so wish to get angry and passionate when I see a perceived great wrong and even moreso if I can believe it is a great wrong.
To trust this particular Conservative PM unchecked with the NHS,would for me, be a great wrong.

[joeysteele]

Letter from senior health professionals says coalition has left NHS in weakest position ever and calls on people to use votes to reinstate service
(Read the letter in full)
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/senior-doctors-assess-governments-record-on-nhs-letter-in-full
Leading doctors in the NHS have accused the coalition government of a catalogue of broken promises, funding cuts and destructive legislation which has left the health service weaker than ever before.

'In a letter to the Guardian, more than 140 senior doctors pass a damning judgment on the government’s stewardship of the NHS, which they say is under pressure because of unnecessary market-oriented changes.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/more-than-100-top-doctors-attack-government-record-on-nhs

Thank you Kizzy, I know one of the signatories to that letter because I am related to him.
Still if people won't listen, they won't listen, if Cameron gets 5 more years with his hands on the NHS,lets see what they are all saying then.
At least we,you and I, can see it now.

[Kizzy]

You must be very proud that they are willing to take a stand Joey :)
Yes we can, I just hope that the truth trickles out faster and faster until may and more are able to see that the plans are already in place to effectively remove healthcare as a public service.

[JoshBB]

It really is disgusting how the tories have used the crash to justify cuts to the NHS which have crippled the nurses - given them a harder workload, given them less pay rises.. meant that people cannot get certain treatments anymore. Then they have also made cuts so severe to the welfare system that people have died, almost a million people are using foodbanks and child poverty has gone straight up and doubled. All while this is happening they are throwing around immigration figures to smoke-screen the real issues. Honestly I am relieved that the tories are doing so horribly in the 18-24year olds opinion polls, hopefully even lower by the time people my age are eligible to vote (for me that will be 2020 for the next general election or 2018/2019 for local elections I am not sure)

[the truth]

They are a threat, outsourcing is so covert, selling the juicy contracts isn't modernising.

labour are a bigger threat with their endless middle management waste cover ups mismanagement stinking corruption filthy hospitals sucking up to the nurses union for votes and covering up the failures of some corrupt lazy or incompetent staff....troubleshooters should be encouraged, we should never have another Stafford disaster again BUT WE WILL....the welsh nhs sells peoples body parts and didn't even ask people first

[joeysteele]

labour are a bigger threat with their endless middle management waste cover ups mismanagement stinking corruption filthy hospitals sucking up to the nurses union for votes and covering up the failures of some corrupt lazy or incompetent staff....troubleshooters should be encouraged, we should never have another Stafford disaster again BUT WE WILL....the welsh nhs sells peoples body parts and didn't even ask people first

You have really nothing good to say about the NHS anyway with respect, all over the years you have hammered nursing staff for instance.

I appreciate you must have had some really bad experiences with the NHS and you are right as to the middle management issue in part.
So I take on board your right from that anger and disppointment to hold the views you do,even though I will never agree with you as to them.

There will sadly with all institutions as large as the NHS is, be problems here and there and yes,big failures too.
None are planned but they will happen.
So on those lines however I can still understand why you have such a negative attitude towards the NHS.

However to even indicate that Labour is a threat to the NHS is quite frankly laughable,if it wasn't so serious.
You go ahead and allow the Conservatives 5 more years with the NHS, you won't need to worry about the middle management, you may even be in the fortunate postition of not having to worry about paying for your healthcare and treatment should you need it, just as I wouldn't either.

However for millions who are the most vulnerable and possibly even the most sick and in need,who will be left after 5 more years of the Conservative plans for the NHS,with a sub standard,basic, longer waiting time for cheaper and limited treatment,it will be an absolute nightmare.

If you really believe Labour would do anything to bring that about then I am really sorry for your view as to that and would say in my view, you make a massive misrepresentation of Labour and the NHS..
I know,the Conservatives will be a big threat, bigger than ever before, and voters that trust them not to be, will in 5 years, if they really ever cared about the NHS in the first place, feel far more betrayed than those who voted Lib Dem on the tuition fees debacle.

The really frightening thing is,with this top down re-organisation done over this parliament, then the ressurected plans that were shelved then brought in and done too,then the new programme of changes to the NHS from this PM and this Conservative govt; in the next 5 years, will leave the situation irreversible and I for one, don't want that on my conscience or take the risk of it coming about either.
Doctors, Nurses and other people connected to the NHS are allw arning of the dangers.

If people even want to believe an already proven liar as to his policies as to the NHS like David Cameron,over those people who spend day in day out, trying to save lives and treat people, then I really do despair for the future of the UK as being any even just a fair level of a decent society.

The thing I will hate to see the most is anyone coming on here in 4 to 5 years from now saying okay Joey you were right.
Because then it will be too late too,to change the chaos there will be.
I am confident to really say and believe, give this PM an overall majority with this team behind him and that will be the case.
The end of the NHS as we know it, want it to be and from how it was founded to be,for all, not just for those with wealth and funds to ride the storm.

[DemolitionRed]

The link I initially posted is depressing. Unfortunately most people will never view it.

The NHS is being carved up and shared out amongst interested investors and many of those investors are parliamentarians. Its not just the conservatives; the tentacles of this octopus reach far and wide across other political parties but 75% of those parliamentarians are Conservatives. Politicians with financial interests in health care should not be making or influencing health law. In my opinion, Lords should not be voting on a bill when they have so much to gain from privatizing medicine.

Thatcher once said, “Blair was the best thing that could ever happened for the Conservative government”. Theres no question that it was Blair who initiated back door privatization of the NHS but the Conservatives jumped on that band wagon and continue to have the foxes look after the chicken coop.


I agree with Joey; those with real experience of working in the health sector have been specifically excluded from NHS talks within government. Like you Joey, some of my relatives, including my father, are in the medical profession. Over the years I’ve listened in on their lengthy debates regarding the selling off of the NHS and how the public are being conned into believing the big lie. Our doctors are merely pawns in this big money making machine. Our NHS is a precious national resource regardless of what anyone says and the only reason anyone would wish to destroy that resource is for huge financial personal gain. The NHS belongs to us the people so why are we, its owners being kept in the dark and systematically fed false propaganda regarding its failings? We are being fed a lie and nothing short of an uprising is going to harness these corrupt bastards.

[joeysteele]

The link I initially posted is depressing. Unfortunately most people will never view it.

The NHS is being carved up and shared out amongst interested investors and many of those investors are parliamentarians. Its not just the conservatives; the tentacles of this octopus reach far and wide across other political parties but 75% of those parliamentarians are Conservatives. Politicians with financial interests in health care should not be making or influencing health law. In my opinion, Lords should not be voting on a bill when they have so much to gain from privatizing medicine.

Thatcher once said, “Blair was the best thing that could ever happened for the Conservative government”. Theres no question that it was Blair who initiated back door privatization of the NHS but the Conservatives jumped on that band wagon and continue to have the foxes look after the chicken coop.


I agree with Joey; those with real experience of working in the health sector have been specifically excluded from NHS talks within government. Like you Joey, some of my relatives, including my father, are in the medical profession. Over the years I’ve listened in on their lengthy debates regarding the selling off of the NHS and how the public are being conned into believing the big lie. Our doctors are merely pawns in this big money making machine. Our NHS is a precious national resource regardless of what anyone says and the only reason anyone would wish to destroy that resource is for huge financial personal gain. The NHS belongs to us the people so why are we, its owners being kept in the dark and systematically fed false propaganda regarding its failings? We are being fed a lie and nothing short of an uprising is going to harness these corrupt bastards.


Thank you for that Demolition Red, exactly, I would rather anyday believe those who are on the receiving end working in the NHS over this conning PM.
Excellent post.

Your contribution here this morning is spot on and fits in with all I hear from my relatives in the NHS too.

Well voters are warned, they make their choice, believe the medical staff and organisations or this PM who wouldn't see the truth as to the NHS if it hit him in the face.
His word is meaningless as to the NHS, as he demonstrated very clearly in 2010.

[user104658]

The sad truth is that people vote through fear. It's the number one motivator. And the current government, with its hammering home of austerity has people terrified about numbers and money, that we'll end up drinking dirty water and eating flies. It's got people whipped up to the point where they are more worried about money and budgets than they are about their own health.

And that's why people will happily watch the NHS crumble if they think it will "save money".

People believe the rhetoric and are completely taken in by the spin, the lies, the tabloid articles. They believe that the NHS has to go because it's unaffordable. They determinedly stuff their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes to the sinister truth that it's being sold off by individuals with conflicts of interest, for their own profit.

[Kizzy]

Reducing faith and public confidence in the NHS has been happening for a long time, as well as the stories in the media regarding waiting times and waste, the rot does seem to be from within also due to the persecution of whistleblowers, this I hope is addressed urgently.
None of the issues however should mean that the national health service should come to an end, as always the truth will out.
However it's not surprising not as many are aware of how they are being kept in the dark about the seriousness and the full extent of the problems with hidden reports, restricted funding, media blocks on demonstrations, waiting times.
My sister worked in the LGI as a nurse and a specialist nurse for 25yrs she's seen the changes and they are in no way patient centered or geared towards good clinical care.
You cannot run a hospital as a business.

[Livia]

Let's hope they can sort out the 'missed appointments' problem that costs the NHS so much money.

[Kizzy]

I'm wondering what they could do to counter that... Save from asking people when they plan to be ill and booking a car to collect them I can't think of a solution.

[user104658]

I'm wondering what they could do to counter that... Save from asking people when they plan to be ill and booking a car to collect them I can't think of a solution.
Exactly. When you can only book an appointment a week in advance - then you wake up on the day feeling fine - what can you do? You either call and cancel or... What... Go anyway? For what possible reason?

[Livia]

Exactly. When you can only book an appointment a week in advance - then you wake up on the day feeling fine - what can you do? You either call and cancel or... What... Go anyway? For what possible reason?

Call and cancel so someone else can have the appointment, obviously. Then that person won't have to wait a week, will they.

[Kizzy]

Is there evidence that this is one of the most detrimental and pressing issues facing the NHS today?
It is one of the... in fact maybe the only aspect that could be considered the fault of the service users.

[Kazanne]

Honestly, Joey, I think you are letting your hatred for 1 person cloud your judgement. Believe it or not David Cameron is not some hitler type dictator figure, his actions are dictated by policy and by party members.

I get it, you don't like the tories, that's fine, but making costs saving in a huge money pit is absolutely the right and proper thing to do. Its how the NHS will evolve to best suit needs in the future. As to people that work in areas that are undergoing change, its never pleasant, they will always resist it and say things were better in the old days - they rarely were btw - rose coloured spectacles 99% of the time

Have to say as much as I love Joey,this post is spot on

[Kazanne]

I use vicky's post in response to yours Kazanne. :laugh:

It will be there ,just has it's been for years,it will still be free for those that need it,as it is for dentists etc, it's not the goverments fault people are living longer and more people need treating,and I wonder why they are living longer? because of our health facilities which may I say is not the best in the world in some fields. labour will do no better for us than anyone else ,it's all clap trap.

[kirklancaster]

It will be there ,just has it's been for years,it will still be free for those that need it,as it is for dentists etc, it's not the goverments fault people are living longer and more people need treating,and I wonder why they are living longer? because of our health facilities which may I say is not the best in the world in some fields. labour will do no better for us than anyone else ,it's all clap trap.

'CLAPTRAP'

:clap1:There's a 'deserved' 'CLAP' for you Kaz my love - I'm afraid that young Josh has fallen into the 'TRAP' by swallowing too much 'Leftie' propaganda.

[DemolitionRed]

It will be there ,just has it's been for years,it will still be free for those that need it,as it is for dentists etc, it's not the goverments fault people are living longer and more people need treating,and I wonder why they are living longer? because of our health facilities which may I say is not the best in the world in some fields. labour will do no better for us than anyone else ,it's all clap trap.

I hope so but I wouldn't bank on it. Free to those that need it? Do you mean like the paupers hospitals they have in America? Can you imagine losing your family home because you couldn't afford the insurance premiums before you were diagnosed with cancer? Its certainly beyond my comprehension but then I've always had the NHS.

Statistics show that British people live longer than Americans. That's because your average Joe won't bother his doctor until his illness has progressed much further than his British cousin. Even with expensive health insurance, everything has to be passed by that insurance company before treatment can be given. British people live longer because we have more preventative programmes and because we are far more likely to be diagnosed in the early stages of an illness than an American patient. Is that a bad thing?

I would argue that we do have one of the best medical systems in the world.

[DemolitionRed]

'CLAPTRAP'

:clap1:There's a 'deserved' 'CLAP' for you Kaz my love - I'm afraid that young Josh has fallen into the 'TRAP' by swallowing too much 'Leftie' propaganda.

So if we support the foundations NHS we are lefties? FFS have you done any research into what's actually happening ?

[the truth]

You have really nothing good to say about the NHS anyway with respect, all over the years you have hammered nursing staff for instance.

I appreciate you must have had some really bad experiences with the NHS and you are right as to the middle management issue in part.
So I take on board your right from that anger and disppointment to hold the views you do,even though I will never agree with you as to them.

There will sadly with all institutions as large as the NHS is, be problems here and there and yes,big failures too.
None are planned but they will happen.
So on those lines however I can still understand why you have such a negative attitude towards the NHS.

However to even indicate that Labour is a threat to the NHS is quite frankly laughable,if it wasn't so serious.
You go ahead and allow the Conservatives 5 more years with the NHS, you won't need to worry about the middle management, you may even be in the fortunate postition of not having to worry about paying for your healthcare and treatment should you need it, just as I wouldn't either.

However for millions who are the most vulnerable and possibly even the most sick and in need,who will be left after 5 more years of the Conservative plans for the NHS,with a sub standard,basic, longer waiting time for cheaper and limited treatment,it will be an absolute nightmare.

If you really believe Labour would do anything to bring that about then I am really sorry for your view as to that and would say in my view, you make a massive misrepresentation of Labour and the NHS..
I know,the Conservatives will be a big threat, bigger than ever before, and voters that trust them not to be, will in 5 years, if they really ever cared about the NHS in the first place, feel far more betrayed than those who voted Lib Dem on the tuition fees debacle.

The really frightening thing is,with this top down re-organisation done over this parliament, then the ressurected plans that were shelved then brought in and done too,then the new programme of changes to the NHS from this PM and this Conservative govt; in the next 5 years, will leave the situation irreversible and I for one, don't want that on my conscience or take the risk of it coming about either.
Doctors, Nurses and other people connected to the NHS are allw arning of the dangers.

If people even want to believe an already proven liar as to his policies as to the NHS like David Cameron,over those people who spend day in day out, trying to save lives and treat people, then I really do despair for the future of the UK as being any even just a fair level of a decent society.

The thing I will hate to see the most is anyone coming on here in 4 to 5 years from now saying okay Joey you were right.
Because then it will be too late too,to change the chaos there will be.
I am confident to really say and believe, give this PM an overall majority with this team behind him and that will be the case.
The end of the NHS as we know it, want it to be and from how it was founded to be,for all, not just for those with wealth and funds to ride the storm.

I have always found the service better under a tory government in my lifetime
during the 80s even under the evil thatcher she at least cut back some mis management and bloated burocracy which doesn't just drain millions it also makes the whole system work far less cohesively and frankly corrupts the main goals of the nhs , to make people better

im happy to read any and all links you have....as I said I distrust both parties. but new labour are the worst government in british history bar none. the gap between rich and poor was bigger than for 200 years, the banks deregulated, the bank of England useless, the debts the biggest ever, the illegal wars, the erosion of civil liberties, the massive growth in the unworking underclasses and entitlement britian, the enslavement to the european union, the endless petty laws, the stealth taxes, they didn't even target vat or top rate of income taxes until their last year, pathetic....they also did nothing for industries..the nhs scandals were appalling. thousands tens of thousands dying from neglect....250000 died one year from undiagnosed blood cloths they picked up in hospitals....also the labour party fawning over the nurses union is a massive part of the problem. there are a vast amount of bad nursing practices. troubleshooting must be more encouraged as it is now, this saves lives and also makes the lives of the good nurses far easier.

the nhs is NOT about nurses, its about patients. the sub standard performance of nurses has been allowed to grow and worsen over many years and no one has carried the can, very few nurses ever get sacked, even in a hospital where 1000 people died of neglect, many simply died of thirst.

the over application of dnr's is a massive scandal, in many cases without even consulting families. the bullying of individuals to allow family members to simply die the moment you arrive at the emergency ward is a scandal.

IM SICK TO DEATH OF LIBERALS OVERY DEFENDING NURSES. THEIR STANDARDS HAVE GONE DOWN FOR YEARS, DECADES. THEY HAVE LESS WORK TO DO THESE DAYS NOT MORE. THE CLEANING IS DONE FOR THEM, THE FEEDING IS DONE FOR THEM, THE PORTERS PUSH THE CHAIRS AND TRANFSER PATIENTS FROM BEDS, THE OCCUPATIONAL THERAPISTS USE THE HOISTS (THOUGH THEY ARE MOSTLY USELESS TOO)THE PHARMACISTS ARE ON HAND, THE DOCTORS MAKE THE DECISIONS, THE RADIOLOGISTS AND OTHER SPECIALISTS DETECT WHATS WRONG WITH PATIENTS. EVEN THE BEDS ARE MADE. THEY HAVE LESS TO DO AND THEY DO IT WORSE ON AVERAGE. IF THEY STILL CANT HACK THE JOB THEN QUIT AND GO AND DO SOMETHING ELSE...I know from extensive experience how many nurses go to work hammered drunk form the night before too, again this is not cracked down on. british hospitals were 70 times dirtier than Scandinavian hospitals in the late 1990s earl 20o's with endless mrsa infections

nurses will try anything to get out of feeding old patients with dementia or swallowing issues just in case they get blamed or simply because it takes 30 minutes plus. I know ive done it

ive been told so many lies by nurses and nhs trust and staff over the years I could write a book

THE SCOTS THOUGH HAVE 1 GENIUS IDEA...THEYRE MERGING SOCIAL SERVICES AND TRUSTS TO SHARE CARE NEEDS UNDER 1 ROOF. THIS WILL SOON BE DONE IN ENGLAND TOO, HALLELUJAH. THIS MEANS NO MORE ENDLESS SQUABBLES ABOUT WHO PAYS FOR THE CARE. THE WHOLE ARGUMENT WAS OVER IS THE PATIENTS PRIMARY NEED A HEALTH OR SOCIAL NEED. WHAT A NONSENSE QUESTION INVENTED UNDER NEW LABOUR...

furthermore....the mindless under use of multi million pounds equipment for scanning that can save lives and save bed blocking and save millions is a scandal. the ombudsmen have been too weak and too slow in reacting to complaints...the ambulances are mis managed too...they take block bookings that are complex to cancel, hence they've missing targets for 20 years... theres so many problems so much waste so much abuse and corruption.....this is costing lives and its unacceptable under both governments. BUT there have been fewer scandals under the tories because theyre not so enslaved to the nhs unions

[the truth]

I hope so but I wouldn't bank on it. Free to those that need it? Do you mean like the paupers hospitals they have in America? Can you imagine losing your family home because you couldn't afford the insurance premiums before you were diagnosed with cancer? Its certainly beyond my comprehension but then I've always had the NHS.

Statistics show that British people live longer than Americans. That's because your average Joe won't bother his doctor until his illness has progressed much further than his British cousin. Even with expensive health insurance, everything has to be passed by that insurance company before treatment can be given. British people live longer because we have more preventative programmes and because we are far more likely to be diagnosed in the early stages of an illness than an American patient. Is that a bad thing?

I would argue that we do have one of the best medical systems in the world.

there are many better now and our standards have dropped hugely....the main advancements are from the scientists

[joeysteele]

Have to say as much as I love Joey,this post is spot on

When there isn't a basic principled free for all NHS left, that will likely even have a different name in the next 5 years too, perhaps you will see others were possibly right and that the people who work as Doctors and Nurses in the NHS who have given the warnings were right too,and that Saint David was completely wrong and again managed to con some voters.

[Kazanne]

I hope so but I wouldn't bank on it. Free to those that need it? Do you mean like the paupers hospitals they have in America? Can you imagine losing your family home because you couldn't afford the insurance premiums before you were diagnosed with cancer? Its certainly beyond my comprehension but then I've always had the NHS.

Statistics show that British people live longer than Americans. That's because your average Joe won't bother his doctor until his illness has progressed much further than his British cousin. Even with expensive health insurance, everything has to be passed by that insurance company before treatment can be given. British people live longer because we have more preventative programmes and because we are far more likely to be diagnosed in the early stages of an illness than an American patient. Is that a bad thing?

I would argue that we do have one of the best medical systems in the world.

I did say in SOME fields we don't,on the whole we have a good health system,but in some fields we lag behind,this notion Conservatives will destroy it is a myth,imo,they haven't destroyed it yet,but they may get rid of some of the pen pushers which aren't needed and would be a good thing,again imo.and don't forget,sometimes patients cant get their much needed drugs here because of money and red tape,so in SOME areas we are not ALL that.

[Kazanne]

When there isn't a basic principled free for all NHS left, that will likely even have a different name in the next 5 years too, perhaps you will see others were possibly right and that the people who work as Doctors and Nurses in the NHS who have given the warnings were right too,and that Saint David was completely wrong and again managed to con some voters.

We will see Joey,but I don't think it will be an issue as I think your boy may scrape through :hehe:

[Vicky.]

Exactly. When you can only book an appointment a week in advance - then you wake up on the day feeling fine - what can you do? You either call and cancel or... What... Go anyway? For what possible reason?

Called the docs this morning, they have nothing this MONTH! I have never heard that one before..apparently if I call tomorrow I can get 'triaged' and seen the same day, but I feel awful taking an emergency appointment just for medication. If they would just rewrite my bloody perscription there would be no problem...been on the same tablets for months for gods sake, and no change in my illness...

[joeysteele]

'CLAPTRAP'

:clap1:There's a 'deserved' 'CLAP' for you Kaz my love - I'm afraid that young Josh has fallen into the 'TRAP' by swallowing too much 'Leftie' propaganda.

I support what is termed left wing policies but am no way a a promoter of left wing propaganda, the right wing propaganda is as dangerous and ridiculous as any left wing nonsene there has been over the decades.

Nurses are massively overworked, Doctors are overworked,this govt; expects then to work even more for less,with dismal wage increases for Nursing staff too,not only over the last 5 years but in the next couple of years too.

JoshBB is talking far more sense than most as to the NHS,you may find it easy to avoid by choice the damage Cameron is doing to the NHS, even when you choose to ignore senior Doctors putting pen to paper too as to the fact.
Clearly like others JoshBB has done his own research and made his own mind up.

What a thing to say anyway about someone who is 14 or 15, that he has succumbed to left wing propaganda.
Since he agrees with me on some issues of it, I must then be a left wing propagandist he has succumbed to,in your generalised view of same.
I am sure he can form his own opinions and make his own judgements,with every right to and not get a label stamped on him like left wing propagandist.

Tony Benn was called that in the 80s and 90s when he wanted to get out of the EU,he was called the most dangerous man in Britain and left wing loony'
Who and what section of society are now almost leading the UK down that road now?
No, not left wing politicians but right wing ones,like the current PM and UKIP.

The only propaganda right,left or otherwise that is coming out from anywhere is coming from Cameron, that the NHS is safe in his hands.
Ignore his lies and his broken pledges to the NHS all you like but its not left wing propaganda at all, It is passion, from those who really care about the NHS and for all that use it too, who are pointing out what is going wrong with it and that this man has his hidden agenda to it.

When I hear and see my family worn out from their work in the NHS and how fearful they are for its 'real' future under this govt; then I will defend them and jump in with a passion with my views as to same.

I will never choose to ignore the senior medical profession when they say what this govt; has done to the NHS.
You and others can dismiss all those who do so as left wing propgandists all you like, that is actually highly insulting and you do a massive disservice to those who work in the NHS and who like myself have a passion for it too.

Applaud Kazanne all you like, I don't, and that saddens and surprises me greatly but I will believe and support Doctors and Nurses anyday, who are the ones working their backsides off year on year who say this govt; has caused devastation to the NHS this last 5 years.
Not a left wing propagandist at all, that you generalise all such comments against Cameron on the NHS as but actually setting out to defend and help stand up for the NHS and its Doctors and Nurses.

Anyway,if that really is being a left wing propagandist in your general view of such scenarios, then tell you what, I am over the moon to be termed it.
I would rather that, than support a man who has already lied repeatedly as to his intentions on the NHS and who I believe is lying and misleading the voters again too.

[kirklancaster]

So if we support the foundations NHS we are lefties? FFS have you done any research into what's actually happening ?

Have I; "done any research into what's happening?"??? You should know me better, or you do not know me at all. I could fill 20 pages on what I know about the NHS Red - all of it FACTUAL - and a lot of it not showing 'Labour' in a good light.

However, I was NOT saying that anyone who cares for the NHS or supports its 'Foundation' is a 'Leftie' because that would be unjustly flattering to 'Lefties' by suggesting that only 'Lefties' care for and support the NHS, which they most certainly do not - though they might presume as much to read what they post - and 'Lefties' have no more monopoly on caring for and supporting the NHS than any of the rest of us.

What I ACTUALLY said is that: "I'm afraid that young Josh has fallen into the 'TRAP' by swallowing too much 'Leftie' propaganda" - which is not the same at all as saying that all those who "support the foundations NHS" are lefties?"

There is a wealth of 'propaganda' and 'false facts' and 'misinformation' in the newspapers and on the internet about subjects as diverse as 'UFO's' to 'Celebrity Gossip' to 'Immigration', and 'Politics' is no exclusion.

For every 'website' proposing one view as gospel truth, there are three more 'rebutting' and 'debunking' that one with the 'real' 'truth'.

The key to utilising such websites is as exhaustive research as possible across a broad spectrum of sources, then painstaking cross-referencing.

When I said that "young Josh has fallen into the 'TRAP' by swallowing too much 'Leftie' propaganda" I meant EXACTLY that.

And I feel justified in stating the above, because, although Josh is a very, very bright 14 year old - he is a 14 year old, and therefore lacks life experience and the type of wisdom that only comes with maturity (which is not to say that all mature people are wise).

A lot of the views expressed in his posts are also - in my opinion - very naive and that too assures me that I am justified in stating that he has "swallowed too much 'Leftie' propaganda".

I hope that I have now cleared up your misinterpretation Red.

[joeysteele]

It really is disgusting how the tories have used the crash to justify cuts to the NHS which have crippled the nurses - given them a harder workload, given them less pay rises.. meant that people cannot get certain treatments anymore. Then they have also made cuts so severe to the welfare system that people have died, almost a million people are using foodbanks and child poverty has gone straight up and doubled. All while this is happening they are throwing around immigration figures to smoke-screen the real issues. Honestly I am relieved that the tories are doing so horribly in the 18-24year olds opinion polls, hopefully even lower by the time people my age are eligible to vote (for me that will be 2020 for the next general election or 2018/2019 for local elections I am not sure)


They are doing badly in the 18 to 24 year old age band Josh, they would also be doing worse in the 16 and 17 year old band which is why they would be against the vote for 16 year olds.

Everything you list in your post is right,except that really in the last 5 years Nurses have had no real wage increase due to the higher inflation and wage rises kept below it for them too.

Don't worry as to patronising comments that you are naive or young and therefore maybe your views are clouded, I was only 18 when I joined and was a student, and got hammered just for being a student as to my opinions.

You clearly read up on things and have also likely seen things in life you feel and even know to be wrong and that there must be better way as to doing things too.
That comes across in your posts,so carry on.

We hear a lot from this govt; as to what we owe to the future generation but some can only put the young down,so take no notice.
Great post,full of facts again from you.

I was only 14 when I had to help care for my Grandad and then My Grandmother later, at that age,I learned far more about life and how things could and should be than I would from others,all from experience.

Keep your posts going as they are. All my best to you.

[bots]

It really is disgusting how the tories have used the crash to justify cuts to the NHS which have crippled the nurses - given them a harder workload, given them less pay rises.. meant that people cannot get certain treatments anymore. Then they have also made cuts so severe to the welfare system that people have died, almost a million people are using foodbanks and child poverty has gone straight up and doubled. All while this is happening they are throwing around immigration figures to smoke-screen the real issues. Honestly I am relieved that the tories are doing so horribly in the 18-24year olds opinion polls, hopefully even lower by the time people my age are eligible to vote (for me that will be 2020 for the next general election or 2018/2019 for local elections I am not sure)

Peoples political persuasions and what they consider important in life reflect their own personal circumstances as they go through life.

For example, in the Scottish Independence referendum, the age limit was lowered by the SNP to increase its chances of success, largely, because people in that age group are less concerned about economics and family security. What I'm trying to say is that there will always be an 18-24 year old age group that favours particular beliefs, but it doesn't follow that when the same people are in the 25-30 range they will retain the same beliefs.

[Vicky.]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-crisis-tory-plot-letter-5488071

:hehe:

[joeysteele]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-crisis-tory-plot-letter-5488071

:hehe:

The sad thing is I wish the NHS was not part of political wrangling,however once this not voted for top down re-organsiation of the NHS was done by Cameron,it has caused massive problems and dismay among NHS staff,

There are Doctors and even Nurses who support the Conservatives,the thread asks if the Conservatives are a threat to the NHS, my answer is the same, only yes this present conservative party and this conservative PM is.

It is true, Conservative PMs and govts; have up to Margaret Thatchers worked well for the NHS in the past, definitely not however this one.

There is a candidate standing in Jeremy Hunt's own seat for the National Health party who want the reforms repealed,so bad were they.

This PM and govt; just will not listen and rides through like a bulldozer the opinions of the the medical staff employed in the NHS.
Dismissing everything and acheiving nothing at all, because in my view he doesn't want to achieve anything, other than bring it to its knees to be snapped up by private organisations who will then be able to run it on a profit basis,not a 'care' basis.

This attempt to 'manipulate' a letter does not surprise me,they will try any trick at all.
I am glad this didn't succeed and hope it means another backlash for this PM and this govt;

I actually feel sorry for Jeremy Hunt, the Health Minister, he has just been made to appear a better face to keep pushing Andrew Lansley's reforms through for this PM.
It is sad the NHS is a political football but until it has all it needs to face whatever is thrown at it and secured so that future reforms are too complex and costly to make, it will be.

It needs a period of stability and more to the point continuity of policy.
Hopefully if Labour are the party leading the next govt; and Andy Burnham is a concensus politician,then with a new Conservative leader perhaps there can be an agreed programme for the NHS with full security on an agreed long term policy as to its future.

That will never happen with this PM and this Conservative govt; however.
They have to be removed,in my strong view, from having anything further to do with the NHS.

[the truth]

The sad thing is I wish the NHS was not part of political wrangling,however once this not voted for top down re-organsiation of the NHS was done by Cameron,it has caused massive problems and dismay among NHS staff,

There are Doctors and even Nurses who support the Conservatives,the thread asks if the Conservatives are a threat to the NHS, my answer is the same, only yes this present conservative party and this conservative PM is.

It is true, Conservative PMs and govts; have up to Margaret Thatchers worked well for the NHS in the past, definitely not however this one.

There is a candidate standing in Jeremy Hunt's own seat for the National Health party who want the reforms repealed,so bad were they.

This PM and govt; just will not listen and rides through like a bulldozer the opinions of the the medical staff employed in the NHS.
Dismissing everything and acheiving nothing at all, because in my view he doesn't want to achieve anything, other than bring it to its knees to be snapped up by private organisations who will then be able to run it on a profit basis,not a 'care' basis.

This attempt to 'manipulate' a letter does not surprise me,they will try any trick at all.
I am glad this didn't succeed and hope it means another backlash for this PM and this govt;

I actually feel sorry for Jeremy Hunt, the Health Minister, he has just been made to appear a better face to keep pushing Andrew Lansley's reforms through for this PM.
It is sad the NHS is a political football but until it has all it needs to face whatever is thrown at it and secured so that future reforms are too complex and costly to make, it will be.

It needs a period of stability and more to the point continuity of policy.
Hopefully if Labour are the party leading the next govt; and Andy Burnham is a concensus politician,then with a new Conservative leader perhaps there can be an agreed programme for the NHS with full security on an agreed long term policy as to its future.

That will never happen with this PM and this Conservative govt; however.
They have to be removed,in my strong view, from having anything further to do with the NHS. but labour reduced nhs funding in wales the tories increased it in england

[Livia]

"The Conservatives pledge an extra £8bn a year for the NHS in England by 2020". Looking forward to seeing how that little snippet of information is going to be handled on here.

[joeysteele]

but labour reduced nhs funding in wales the tories increased it in england

The didn't increase it,they ringfenced the original spending budget for the NHS set by the outgoing Labour govt; therefore accepting at that time that Labour was spending enough on the NHS.

They didn't protect that spending however fron inflation costs and also wasted a massive amount of money on a not voted for, unnecessary top down re-organisation of the NHS.

In real truth, with the rise in cost over the years of this govt; the NHS has had likely less than had it been protected as to taking into account the rising costs due to inflation too.

While you are right Labour has made a cut to NHS spending in Wales,you have to take into account this govt; has cut the funding to the Welsh assembly and since most things are already cut to the bone as to services in Wales, some hard decisons had to be made.

All the countries of the UK have some problems with the NHS,in my view,Wales needs more funding from this govt; it doesn't get anywhere near enough and the funding from central govt; has been cut way too much.
Instead of wasting costs on a top down re-organisation of the NHS, this govt; would have been better ensuring it had a reserve set up to cover problems in the NHS across the UK, after all this is still the 'UK' govt; overall.

Rather than wring its hands with glee at the problemswith the NHS in Wales,it should be helping the citizens of Wales by giving more funding to help sort out any problems.
However since they won't even do that in the English NHS that say just about everything about this govt; and the NHS.

Have some conflict in the middle east however and this govt; could find funds a plenty to put in to that as they did for Libya and would have done for Syria too.

[Livia]

Labour found substantial funds for Middle East conflicts too, joey. Labour took us there in the first place. It's a little unfair, I think, throwing that particular argument at this government.

[joeysteele]

Labour found substantial funds for Middle East conflicts too, joey. Labour took us there in the first place. It's a little unfair, I think, throwing that particular argument at this government.

True, but they did so before the 'global' banking/financial crisis and recession hit to be fair too.
I neither agreed with Iraq or Afghanistan anyway to be honest.

However,even when hitting the UK citizens with massive austerity measures, this govt; made almost unlimited funds available for the Libya exercise, and look at the state Libya is now in after the use of all those funds.

AS for this govt's; announcement today as to funding the NHS,this late into an election campaign with no plans to do so before until now, not even when the Chancellor presented his budget a few weeks ago.

I think since I have made it clear endlessly now,(probably to the point of boring everyone to death), I for one, don't believe a word David Cameron says as to the NHS, after his blatant lie as to the top down re-organisation,I think after the election,this increase would be downgraded or would not materialise at all.

I totally don't trust David Cameron as to the NHS, and he has shown he will lie about it to get elected before, so I no way will believe a word he says on it.
Not a chance from me,if I had power,I wouldn't let him or this cabinet he leads,near it ever again as to decisions as to its future.
So although very predictable my response to this likely will be seen,at least I am consistent.

[Kizzy]

True, but they did so before the 'global' banking/financial crisis and recession hit to be fair too.
I neither agreed with Iraq or Afghanistan anyway to be honest.

However,even when hitting the UK citizens with massive austerity measures, this govt; made almost unlimited funds available for the Libya exercise, and look at the state Libya is now in after the use of all those funds.

AS for this govt's; announcement today as to funding the NHS,this late into an election campaign with no plans to do so before until now, not even when the Chancellor presented his budget a few weeks ago.

I think since I have made it clear endlessly now,(probably to the point of boring everyone to death), I for one, don't believe a word David Cameron says as to the NHS, after his blatant lie as to the top down re-organisation,I think after the election,this increase would be downgraded or would not materialise at all.

I totally don't trust David Cameron as to the NHS, and he has shown he will lie about it to get elected before, so I no way will believe a word he says on it.
Not a chance from me,if I had power,I wouldn't let him or this cabinet he leads,near it ever again as to decisions as to its future.
So although very predictable my response to this likely will be seen,at least I am consistent.

You most certainly are, and I wholeheartedly agree that this looks like a last ditch attempt and a soundbite rather than something that was planned and budgeted for within their policies, it's clearly been shoehorned in at the last minute.
Even the tales of his poor deceased son and their subsequent marital problems appear geared towards some last minute sympathy vote, I hate saying that but that's how it's coming across to me.

[joeysteele]

You most certainly are, and I wholeheartedly agree that this looks like a last ditch attempt and a soundbite rather than something that was planned and budgeted for within their policies, it's clearly been shoehorned in at the last minute.
Even the tales of his poor deceased son and their subsequent marital problems appear geared towards some last minute sympathy vote, I hate saying that but that's how it's coming across to me.

I 100% sympathise with the Camerons as to their son, that must have been a really horrible and emotionally testing time for them.
I have no doubt he is a caring husband and a really good Father.

However,it does irk me a little when they use the child as an example as to how they regard the NHS and how wonderful they say it was at the time for their son, which I have no doubt it was too.

Had that resulted in full protection and more investment in the NHS from his govt; once he got power, then that would have been commendable.
Since once getting power he turned the NHS almost upside down with one of the biggest re-organisations of it, well that doesn't inspire me to believe he had much regard for it in reality.

Added to that,I think now of the parents with children who have special needs and disabililties 'now',who since this govt; came to power have seen appointments put back,operations put back and even cancelled,plus lengthy delays as to some relevant treatments too.

Despite all Cameron says in public as to the NHS, he has shown scant regard for those parents,waiting too for their own children to get what they really need from the NHS.

[Livia]

Whatever the Tories do there will always be people who are vehemently against them, even when they're pledging money into the NHS when this thread specifically asks the question, do the Tories pose a threat to the NHS? I'm not sure how anyone can think £8bn into the health service is a bad thing, but of course there are people who do.

[Kizzy]

I 100% sympathise with the Camerons as to their son, that must have been a really horrible and emotionally testing time for them.
I have no doubt he is a caring husband and a really good Father.

However,it does irk me a little when they use the child as an example as to how they regard the NHS and how wonderful they say it was at the time for their son, which I have no doubt it was too.

Had that resulted in full protection and more investment in the NHS from his govt; once he got power, then that would have been commendable.
Since once getting power he turned the NHS almost upside down with one of the biggest re-organisations of it, well that doesn't inspire me to believe he had much regard for it in reality.

Added to that,I think now of the parents with children who have special needs and disabililties 'now',who since this govt; came to power have seen appointments put back,operations put back and even cancelled,plus lengthy delays as to some relevant treatments too.

Despite all Cameron says in public as to the NHS, he has shown scant regard for those parents,waiting too for their own children to get what they really need from the NHS.

Totally Joey, I would have expected a triple lock of protections and a patient centred approach to NHS care of the profoundly disabled at the very least. knowing how vital the protection of this service is for those with long term complex needs in both healthcare and welfare...but no.

[joeysteele]

Whatever the Tories do there will always be people who are vehemently against them, even when they're pledging money into the NHS when this thread specifically asks the question, do the Tories pose a threat to the NHS? I'm not sure how anyone can think £8bn into the health service is a bad thing, but of course there are people who do.

With full respect.
I have actually said repeatedly,that the Conservatives up until the later years of Margaret Thatcher nurtured the NHS and worked with it to succeed and were no threat to the NHS as to its founding principles at all.
I think in fairness,I even credited John Major in trying to turn the tide from the disastrous treatment it got from the later years of Thatcher's govt:

This PM, promised, in order to win over voters wavering as to the NHS,that he would not under his govt; have any top down re-organisation of same.
Then he did the biggest one, and it would have actually been bigger had the Lib Dems not insisted in some elements of it being shelved,before they supported what was left, which was more than bad enough.

It is not the Conservatives, people are getting at, I certainly am not, I am getting at this Conservative govt; and this PM,David Cameron who has lied as to his intentions for the NHS already.
So when he says he will put 8 billion,just like that,all of a sudden,like being sprung from a magician's hat,sorry but to me it is as false and misleading in my view as his no top down re-organisation promise.

I know myself,there are loads of Conservative MPs who care about the NHS and many who were even stunned this re-organisation ever took place too.
They need to find their voice and make sure they get rid of this PM and leader,if he is defeated in May, as soon as possible and put in place a man whose word may actually mean something as to the NHS,(I say man only because the only seemingly frontrunner of the female Conservative MPs is the disaster that is Theresa May,who would be possibly even worse than this current PM as leader of the Conservatives).

Then everyone will be able to think that no threat will be posed to the NHS again from the Conservative party.
That is in no way the case for me however with this particular PM and the cabinet he has chosen who are dictating policy too.

It is not the Conservatives overall themselves, who are a threat to the NHS.
It is the far reaching and as yet, unfinished original reforms of former Health secretary Andrew Lansley,which are still being pushed into the NHS, by this PM, who has shown his word is meaningless as to the NHS by his lying about it and his intentions as to it in 2010.

[Kizzy]

Well said, I don't think anyone would or should cast their vote for how a party has behaved historically, this is a new leader of the Labour party who I feel better represents the values than maybe his predecessors. He has already underlined pledges to maintain and improve services, this it what appeals to voters..not some afterthought blurted out with no supporting figures or policy, that just smacks of pure desperation frankly.

[bots]

With full respect.
I have actually said repeatedly,that the Conservatives up until the later years of Margaret Thatcher nurtured the NHS and worked with it to succeed and were no threat to the NHS as to its founding principles at all.
I think in fairness,I even credited John Major in trying to turn the tide from the disastrous treatment it got from the later years of Thatcher's govt:

This PM, promised, in order to win over voters wavering as to the NHS,that he would not under his govt; have any top down re-organisation of same.
Then he did the biggest one, and it would have actually been bigger had the Lib Dems not insisted in some elements of it being shelved,beofre they supported what was left, which was more than bad enough.

It is not the Conservatives, people are getting at, I certainly am not, I am getting at this Conservative govt; and this PM,David Cameron who has lied as to his intentions for the NHS already.
So when he says he will put 8 billion,just like that,all of a sudden,like being sprung from a magician's hat,sorry but to me it is as false and misleading in my view as his no top down re-organisation promise.

I know myself,there are loads of Conservative MPs who care about the NHS and many who were even stunned this re-organisation ever took place too.
They need to find their voice and make sure they get rid of this PM and leader,if he is defeated in May, as soon as possible and put in place a man whose word may actually mean something as to the NHS.

Then everyone will be able to think that no threat will be posed to the NHS again from the Conservative party.
That is in no way the case for me however with this particular PM and the cabinet he has chosen who are dictating policy too.

It is not the Conservatives overall themselves, who are a threat to the NHS.
It is the far reaching and as yet, unfinished original reforms of former Health secretary Andrew Lansley,which are still being pushed into the NHS, by this PM, who has shown his word is meaningless as to the NHS by his lying about it and his intentions as to it in 2010.

See, I trust David Cameron and the Conservatives to look after the welfare of the UK much more than I do Ed and the labour party. I don't see David Cameron as a liar at all, and I think throwing such emotive slurs in his direction at every possible opportunity smacks of desperation :shrug:

[Kizzy]

Well we can only judge people on their actions, and as we only have the actions in government of Mr Cameron to go on the suggestion that Mr Millband would be worse is conjecture at this point.
Those who oppose the government we have have had 5yrs to form an opinion, more than enough time to decide whether or not they stick to policy promises or not.

[joeysteele]

I will never see the Labour party as a threat at all as to the full and founding principles of the NHS free for all at the point of need.

No Labour leader would get away with even thinking of altering the NHS in such a way and were any Labour leader and Labour govt; ever to do so, then that really would be then the end of the Labour party.

Overall to be fair to the Conservatives, they were against the NHS but embraced it after winning power again in 1951 and largely have worked with it since.

Not this PM however and the govt; he leads, I repeat again, I wouldn't trust him to bring a bedpan,let alone trust him the NHS again.
I also think, many who actually took him at his word in 2010 as to no top down re-organisation,also will never trust him again, and they shouldn't either and with really good reason.

[joeysteele]

See, I trust David Cameron and the Conservatives to look after the welfare of the UK much more than I do Ed and the labour party. I don't see David Cameron as a liar at all, and I think throwing such emotive slurs in his direction at every possible opportunity smacks of desperation :shrug:

Well did he say he and his govt; would not do a top down re-organisation of the NHS repeatedly in the debates and when asked by interviewers in 2010.

Did he less than a year later bring in plans for the biggest re-organsiation of the NHS for ages.
Did that not cause uproar and he was made to stall a while while the Lib Dems had a mini conference and decided they couldn't support all of it.

With the medical profession too overall saying it would lead to problems and be disastrous, did he not then proceed,shelving some of it, with a still massive re-organisation against all opposition to it.

He got votes with that promise,he then did the opposite he said he would and insisted on doing it.
If that is not lying then I don't know what is.

If someone asks me to not to do something and I say I won't, then I go off and do it,I lied to those I said that to.
I wouldn't be expected to be trusted again.

To lie about a massive thing like the NHS as he did, should be enough, and it is for me, to never trust his word again as to it.
I am just surprised anyone would to be quite honest.

[Kazanne]

See, I trust David Cameron and the Conservatives to look after the welfare of the UK much more than I do Ed and the labour party. I don't see David Cameron as a liar at all, and I think throwing such emotive slurs in his direction at every possible opportunity smacks of desperation :shrug:

Yes,so do I bitontheside,the NHS can't be healed straight away it takes time to make sure everything is in place and I firmly believe Cameron will deliver that,but he wont be rushed just to please people who cannot wait for something to be done properly,it's a shame really as if Labour get in they will either take credit for what Cameron has already started or take us back to square one ,up to our necks in debt and so it goes on,I say let Cameron finish the job he started even if it means we cant get what we want straight away. I trust the NHS in his hands more.

[joeysteele]

Yes,so do I bitontheside,the NHS can't be healed straight away it takes time to make sure everything is in place and I firmly believe Cameron will deliver that,but he wont be rushed just to please people who cannot wait for something to be done properly,it's a shame really as if Labour get in they will either take credit for what Cameron has already started or take us back to square one ,up to our necks in debt and so it goes on,I say let Cameron finish the job he started even if it means we cant get what we want straight away. I trust the NHS in his hands more.

Most of the medical profession and Nurses want all that Cameron has done to be reversed.
Are they all wrong,do they know nothing about the NHS, after all they just work in it, saving lives year in and year out.

He said nothing needed to be done drastically as to the NHS in 2010, backing that up with a promise not to do any major re-organisation of it. which cost loads to do as well which could have been funds better spent on real hands on care.

The work he started you describe, he has chopped it up left,right and centre, the staff are confused, in disarray and even angry at the problems the re-organisation has created for them with so many changes.
They are all wrong to you however are they.

Well you trust him all you like but do you really believe had he said in 2010 he was going to do any re-organisation of the NHS on the scale he did,that he would have got votes.
No way would he have, he conned the voters saying he would not,if you admire that well that is up to you, for me, however,the man is a liar and not to be trusted.

He would have known in 2010 when he made that pledge, that he had every intention doing it once in power.
Which is why he misled the voters and avoided having to ask them to support the re-organisation.

No voter at all voted for this re-organisation, they weren't even given a chance to ,because he said he would not be doing it.
That's deceit on a large scale in my view,and something I for one would never admire in anyone not just a politician.

The NHS didn't need healing Kazanne,it only needed more nurturing,investment and building up, not bringing down as Cameron and his govt; have done this last 5 years.

The NHS back to square one as you call it in 2010, would be a whole lot better than it is now in 2015,that's for sure, and most Doctors, Nurses and other workers in the NHS would tell you that too.
However you believe Saint David over all those.

I will never believe him over all of them, never.
I see some of my family shattered,not only coping with caring for others in the NHS but now hampered more and more in that care by this pointless and unnecessary re-organisation that your precious PM promised would never happen under his govt;

[smudgie]

See, I trust David Cameron and the Conservatives to look after the welfare of the UK much more than I do Ed and the labour party. I don't see David Cameron as a liar at all, and I think throwing such emotive slurs in his direction at every possible opportunity smacks of desperation :shrug:

I rather agree with this.


All the leaders can stretch the truth somewhat, but I trust the Tories over the present labour lot anyday.

[joeysteele]

This is my last post on this thread as it seems pointless to point out what is wrong with a Prime Minister promising not to do something that nobody in effect wants, and to then go and do it with really no authority to,since it wasn't even in his manifesto.

People can ignore all the Doctors,Nurses, and all workers in the NHS who are in the vast majority,who say this govt; with this re-organisation has become a threat to the basic founding principles of the NHS.

I find it incredible that someone who has already deceived and lied to the voters on the NHS can get such acclaim.
I find it incredible in fact that anyone could even want to believe him after his massive and serious broken promise as to the NHS re-organisation.

Thankfully as I go knocking on doors or talk to people in the street, I get a far better response, they can see how wrong he was and also how wrong some of them were to trust him.
Fortunately one of my Cousins who is a Doctor and who is with me, 'advising' me as to what I say out there, bears out the threat factor too from this PM and this govt;.

If anyone can ever point out 'justifiably' where Labour have ever endangered the NHS I would love to see it, if anyone cares to read up about the NHS through the 80s and 90s to 1997,and see the chaos the NHS was in when Labour came to power in 1997,with the NHS starved of Nursing staff and having been massively under invested in.

In 2010, despite the scandals and the problems, it was loads better in 2010 than it was in 1997.
Now we have the medical professionals warning of real dangers to it again,here in 2015, blaming too, in the main, the unwanted,unnecessary and costly re-organisation,that was promised by David Cameron to never be going to take place.

I personally and absolutely despair that any voters would let him off the hook as to that and will blindly allow him to wreck it further.
Not of course take it out of existence but tear it down so he can make it easy for money grabbing private profiteers to march in with a saving plan thanks to his policies and re-organisation towards it.

That is real,5 more years with this PM and this govt; running the NHS and it will be certainly unrecognisable,I predict that.
I am 100% sure this man has a hidden agenda of as near full privatisation of the NHS that is possible.
His words mean nothing to me,just as mine it seems mean nothing to those here who believe he does no wrong and that actually deceiving and lying to voters should bring rewards for him.

My final words are that I believe 100%, taking in the worries and information from those I know who work in the NHS, that under him, (and he will know he likely only has another 5 years,that is possibly why he will not be seeking re-election in 5 years time if he wins this time).
That the NHS will be moving or have already moved to people needing health insurance or wealth to get the better treatments and faster treatments.
I have no doubt as to that at all,being lied to once by him, I would not entertain giving him another go at it.

For those who cannot pay,who cannot afford health insurance,who will likely be those who are the most in need and most vulnerable, they will be left with a basic,cheaper with far longer waiting times for treatment sub standard health programme.
The NHS will likely be gone for good from its founding principles.

Anyone who claims to care about the NHS and ignores the warnings from Doctors, Nurses and all other NHS staff too,yet will trust and believe a man who is already a proven liar as to his intentions for the NHS will be helping him destroy what is a great institution that should be built up not brought down.
People must do what they think,all parties have faults,all parties have at times failed the NHS and had problems occur in it.

In truth,it was caught just in time in 1997,before the real disaster struck.
In just 5 years, with his re-organisation, this PM has taken it almost right back to 1997, priming it for the privatisation takeover I believe is his hidden agenda.
His excuse will be, there was really no other way to fund the NHS or save it without that and it will then be too late to claw it back.

Anyone saying they weren't warned who give him the chance to do more harm to the NHS, will also not be telling the truth.
I have done my bit in saying what I believe, what I know and felt the need to, because I am passionate about the NHS,for my family who work in it and for those who it should always be there for,free at the point of need.

That will, I sincerely believe not be the case if David Cameron and this hardline cabinet, get to finish what they started with this disastrous,costly and wrecking re-organisation.

That is my lot on this thread and this issue on here because I am just getting more angry,knowing what will be coming from this PM.
A PM who has already lied to the voters on the NHS, already brought chaos to it and who dismisses, it seems, like those who support him too, the true warnings and fears of the senior and junior Doctors of the NHS,the Nursing staff and all employed elsewhere in it.

If you want a health service run in the main for profit where those who can pay will get good healthcare,while those who cannot pay get a basic sub standard handout,then vote Conservative.
If that is what you really want the NHS to end up as,that I am now100% sure is what you will get when you help this PM achieve it too.

That's me done,I've said loads on this and I believe I have spoken the truth as to the NHS for it now and the future of it too,which is more than this PM can ever claim to have done as to it.

.

[arista]

"This is my last post on this thread as it seems pointless to point out what is wrong with a Prime Minister"

You will post again.

What you need to understand
is No one wants Ed as PM
even many in the Labour Party
do not want him.

Its a Staged Election
that American in charge of Ed
stages everything


The public are Sick of it.

[Kizzy]

This is my last post on this thread as it seems pointless to point out what is wrong with a Prime Minister promising not to do something that nobody in effect wants, and to then go and do it with really no authority to,since it wasn't even in his manifesto.

People can ignore all the Doctors,Nurses, and all workers in the NHS who are in the vast majority,who say this govt; with this re-organisation has become a threat to the basic founding principles of the NHS.

I find it incredible that someone who has already deceived and lied to the voters on the NHS can get such acclaim.
I find it incredible in fact that anyone could even want to believe him after his massive and serious broken promise as to the NHS re-organisation.

Thankfully as I go knocking on doors or talk to people in the street, I get a far better response, they can see how wrong he was and also how wrong some of them were to trust him.
Fortunately one of my Cousins who is a Doctor and who is with me, 'advising' me as to what I say out there, bears out the threat factor too from this PM and this govt;.

If anyone can ever point out 'justifiably' where Labour have ever endangered the NHS I would love to see it, if anyone cares to read up about the NHS through the 80s and 90s to 1997,and see the chaos the NHS was in when Labour came to power in 1997,with the NHS starved of Nursing staff and having been massively under invested in.

In 2010, despite the scandals and the problems, it was loads better in 2010 than it was in 1997.
Now we have the medical professionals warning of real dangers to it again,here in 2015, blaming too, in the main, the unwanted,unnecessary and costly re-organisation,that was promised by David Cameron to never be going to take place.

I personally and absolutely despair that any voters would let him off the hook as to that and will blindly allow him to wreck it further.
Not of course take it out of existence but tear it down so he can make it easy for money grabbing private profiteers to march in with a saving plan thanks to his policies and re-organisation towards it.

That is real,5 more years with this PM and this govt; running the NHS and it will be certainly unrecognisable,I predict that.
I am 100% sure this man has a hidden agenda of as near full privatisation of the NHS that is possible.
His words mean nothing to me,just as mine it seems mean nothing to those here who believe he does no wrong and that actually deceiving and lying to voters should bring rewards for him.

My final words are that I believe 100%, taking in the worries and information from those I know who work in the NHS, that under him, (and he will know he likely only has another 5 years,that is possibly why he will not be seeking re-election in 5 years time if he wins this time).
That the NHS will be moving or have already moved to people needing health insurance or wealth to get the better treatments and faster treatments.
I have no doubt as to that at all,being lied to once by him, I would not entertain giving him another go at it.

For those who cannot pay,who cannot afford health insurance,who will likely be those who are the most in need and most vulnerable, they will be left with a basic,cheaper with far longer waiting times for treatment sub standard health programme.
The NHS will likely be gone for good from its founding principles.

Anyone who claims to care about the NHS and ignores the warnings from Doctors, Nurses and all other NHS staff too,yet will trust and believe a man who is already a proven liar as to his intentions for the NHS will be helping him destroy what is a great institution that should be built up not brought down.
People must do what they think,all parties have faults,all parties have at times failed the NHS and had problems occur in it.

In truth,it was caught just in time in 1997,before the real disaster struck.
In just 5 years, with his re-organisation, this PM has taken it almost right back to 1997, priming it for the privatisation takeover I believe is his hidden agenda.
His excuse will be, there was really no other way to fund the NHS or save it without that and it will then be too late to claw it back.

Anyone saying they weren't warned who give him the chance to do more harm to the NHS, will also not be telling the truth.
I have done my bit in saying what I believe, what I know and felt the need to, because I am passionate about the NHS,for my family who work in it and for those who it should always be there for,free at the point of need.

That will, I sincerely believe not be the case if David Cameron and this hardline cabinet, get to finish what they started with this disastrous,costly and wrecking re-organisation.

That is my lot on this thread and this issue on here because I am just getting more angry,knowing what will be coming from this PM.
A PM who has already lied to the voters on the NHS, already brought chaos to it and who dismisses, it seems, like those who support him too, the true warnings and fears of the senior and junior Doctors of the NHS,the Nursing staff and all employed elsewhere in it.

If you want a health service run in the main for profit where those who can pay will get good healthcare,while those who cannot pay get a basic sub standard handout,then vote Conservative.
If that is what you really want the NHS to end up as,that I am now100% sure is what you will get when you help this PM achieve it too.

That's me done,I've said loads on this and I believe I have spoken the truth as to the NHS for it now and the future of it too,which is more than this PM can ever claim to have done as to it.

.

Don't ever give up Joey, as you say those who you meet knocking on doors are a better gauge in terms of a quantitative sample of the electorate than here.
There is nothing in this that suggests 8 million of extra spending and of course if it isn't budgeted for you have to ask where is this money coming from, are they robbing peter to pay paul?
Talk is cheap and of course that's all this is, hot air.
http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/March2015EFO_18-03-webv1.pdf

[arista]

"Don't ever give up Joey"


He has Every Right to
its tuff in Politics

[arista]

Yes,so do I bitontheside,the NHS can't be healed straight away it takes time to make sure everything is in place and I firmly believe Cameron will deliver that,but he wont be rushed just to please people who cannot wait for something to be done properly,it's a shame really as if Labour get in they will either take credit for what Cameron has already started or take us back to square one ,up to our necks in debt and so it goes on,I say let Cameron finish the job he started even if it means we cant get what we want straight away. I trust the NHS in his hands more.


Bang On Right Kaz

[Kizzy]

"Don't ever give up Joey"


He has Every Right to
its tuff in Politics

Nah, he won't he has the courage of his convictions.
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

[Kizzy]

Osborne struggles to explain how £8bn for NHS would be funded

George Osborne, chancellor of the exchequer, has just appeared on the Marr show. Andrew Marr pressed him on yesterday’s Tory pledge to find an extra £8bn for the NHS.

“It’s part of our balanced plan”, said Osborne, when asked where the money was coming from. “That’s not really an answer,” responded Marr.

“We have always said we supported the NHS’s own plan for its sustainable future, so we offer the best health care in the world and the best medicines ... and because we have that balanced economic plan and because we are prepared to take difficult decisions in other parts of government we can go on increasing the money to the NHS.”

Marr interjected: “if you’re not going to tell me where the money’s coming from, I’ll tell you where the money’s coming from. It’s going to come from even deeper cuts in the unprotected departmental spending budget of around 14% in total, so you’re going to hit the police, you’re going to hit the armed forces and you’re going to hit local government to pay for this.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2015/apr/12/the-conservatives-pledge-to-cut-inheritance-tax-on-family-homes

[Kizzy]

Ed Miliband has lambasted the Conservatives’ pledge to provide an additional £8bn of health spending a year as akin to trying to “fund the NHS on an IOU”.

The Labour leader was speaking on the day the future of the health service leapt to the top of the political agenda. Miliband announced that if elected his government would provide 3,000 extra midwives to ensure women giving birth have one-to-one maternity care.

Miliband also criticised the surprise announcement from George Osborne in the Guardian on Saturday that the Conservatives would provide an additional £8bn each year above inflation to fill the funding black hole in the health service. The chancellor said his party’s funding pledge demonstrated an “absolute commitment” to meeting the £30bn-a-year funding gap by the end of the decade, as identified by Simon Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/11/women-labour-miliband-callthe-midwife-mother-birth

[bots]

An extra 8 billion pledged to the NHS by the tories does not amount to a health service under threat from them ... no need for further discussion :smug:

[Kizzy]

An extra 8 billion pledged to the NHS by the tories does not amount to a health service under threat from them ... no need for further discussion :smug:

You believe what you like, I think there's plenty to discuss, personally I feel it's nothing more than the floundering of a party that's failed on this issue for 5yrs.

[bots]

You believe what you like, I think there's plenty to discuss, personally I feel it's nothing more than the floundering of a party that's failed on this issue for 5yrs.

I will and do thanks!

All I have seen from labour supporters is attacks on Tory policy. Policy that people will either agree with or not. I would be much more interested in reading the positives of what labour have to offer over the positives of what the tories have to offer. Negativity will not win this election, I am 100% sure of that

[AnnieK]

I believe that Labour will do a lot for the NHS but the money has to come from somewhere and I would imagine we will see tax rises, NI rises and fuel duty rises. My worry with both Labour and Conservative government that the cost will be paid from hard working lower middle classes who already pay more than enough.

[arista]

I believe that Labour will do a lot for the NHS but the money has to come from somewhere and I would imagine we will see tax rises, NI rises and fuel duty rises. My worry with both Labour and Conservative government that the cost will be paid from hard working lower middle classes who already pay more than enough.


Yes costings go wrong all the time


I am sick of Labour saying Everything the Conservatives
say will never work?
Its like more of a interview is on them

If Eds on
Subtitles on fast
and Mute

Why can he not get his vocal mess sorted?

[user104658]

I will and do thanks!

All I have seen from labour supporters is attacks on Tory policy. Policy that people will either agree with or not. I would be much more interested in reading the positives of what labour have to offer over the positives of what the tories have to offer. Negativity will not win this election, I am 100% sure of that
Negativity is all that ever wins elections in this country. People vote out of fear. Whoever successfully makes the other party seem scarier will win.

[Kizzy]

All I've seen from tory supporters are attacks on Eds mug! no mention of policies at all so I think personally at least I'm ahead there :laugh:
Whoever appeals to the widest range of voters has won, oh we'll raise the lowest rate of tax...and lower the highest...and give the NHS 8 million... and not raise VAT.
Why have I got my fingers crossed behind my back?.... er, I have an affliction that affects my joints and my verbal reasoning.

[bots]

All I've seen from tory supporters are attacks on Eds mug! no mention of policies at all so I think personally at least I'm ahead there :laugh:

Oh well ...... :laugh:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00455/30-01-2012_-_19_55__455345b.jpg

[Kizzy]

Oh well, if you can't beat em....
http://www.garybarker.co.uk/images/cameron-thatcher-times-cartoon.jpg