A family problem?

[the truth]

Be interested to know what advice or what youd do in this scenario

both siblings are limiting or stopping access of their grand kids to my mother..

sibling 1 wont bring the kids and wont invite her to their house, so she hasn't seen those grand kids for 2 years

sibling 2 rarely brings the grand kids and wont invite her to their house

Im piggy in the middle trying to make the peace and to try and broker some compromise with little success

my mother is gutted about the situation , she tends to get on with children better than adults

why wont they let their kids see her you may ask?

well sibling 1 hasn't got on well with her over the years, both tend to be sarcastic towards each other, no screaming matches, they just rub each other wrong and grew apart years ago. but it seems to stop her seeing her grand kids totally is harsh

sibling 2 is also sarcastic and critical but cant take any criticism back. so they rub each other up and it always fails

in addition to this my dad died 18 months ago so my mother is alone. which is one reason id thought my siblings would show her some empathy. instead they've gone the opposite way and taken away her contact with grand kids. this seems particularly cruel to me. no doubt they'd say its her fault.

her other faults she does tend to be a bit of a spendthrift, though its all spent on the home , she doesn't go out partying or drinking etc

so what do I do? keep out of it? its causing a rift between me and siblings as I cant come to terms with the ruthlessness of their position and I too see my nieces and nephews less as a result of this

[Niamh.]

I think all you can do is have a chat with them and tell them how you/your mother feels, other than that though there's not a whole lot you can do as they're the parents. Sad situation though

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pl22c

This issue was discussed on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday!

[the truth]

I think all you can do is have a chat with them and tell them how you/your mother feels, other than that though there's not a whole lot you can do as they're the parents. Sad situation though

thanks for the response
ive tried and ill keep trying. but its causing a rift with my siblings now. im struggling to feel much love for them due to this ongoing saga

[AnnieK]

Is it that your siblings don't want her seeing the grandchildren or they don't want to see her themselves? If it is the latter could you not be an intermediate so you could take the children to see their grandmother as it seems unfair to deprive them of a family member just because the adults can't get on?

[the truth]

Is it that your siblings don't want her seeing the grandchildren or they don't want to see her themselves? If it is the latter could you not be an intermediate so you could take the children to see their grandmother as it seems unfair to deprive them of a family member just because the adults can't get on?

sibling 1 never sees my mother
sibling 2 sees her occasionally.

I fear the grand kids especially the older ones with sibling 2 have been brainwashed against her now anyway. so that's a no go. the other grand kids are 70 miles away so it would mean them being dropped off, I cant see that happening either. im a bit stumped here, ive never encountered such cruelty at close hand

[Crimson Dynamo]

cant you take the grandchildren to see them?

[Kizzy]

I would keep out of it, there's no point attempting to mediate you could make it worse.

[the truth]

cant you take the grandchildren to see them?

I could try again I guess though ive not spoken to sibling 1 for a year and only had the odd text in that time so relations are ropey at best...ive asked sibling 1 if she can come and see them , sibling 1 implied he/she wouldn't some between her and the grand kids but no invite came and they haven't been to see her since my dad died.

[Cherie]

What distance are we talking about? Maybe your Mum could offer an olive branch and have them around for tea one evening? She really needs to be the one to take the initiative I think, they will have the kids in common so hopefully that will neutralise sarky remarks between the adults, if it goes well she could maybe do that once a month and try to reconnect the bonds, you could set things in motion by telling them how much she is missing your Dad and would welcome some family company, maybe they think she is not interested? Then get her to issue the invite after that it's up to both sides to make it work

[Kazanne]

I could try again I guess though ive not spoken to sibling 1 for a year and only had the odd text in that time so relations are ropey at best...ive asked sibling 1 if she can come and see them , sibling 1 implied he/she wouldn't some between her and the grand kids but no invite came and they haven't been to see her since my dad died.

Can you take your mom up to where they live ? you can collect them and you and your mom take them to a park,cafe,etc and spend some time together,if there is no other way,I think as their grandma she has rights,

[Niamh.]

Can you take your mom up to where they live ? you can collect them and you and your mom take them to a park,cafe,etc and spend some time together,if there is no other way,I think as their grandma she has rights,

Do you mean moral rights? I don't think grandparents would have any legal rights

[Kazanne]

Do you mean moral rights? I don't think grandparents would have any legal rights

I am sure you can go to court to get access to your grandchildren,not 100% certain Naimh,someone will able to confirm this or not,but I'm certain I have seen a TV program about it.

[Niamh.]

I am sure you can go to court to get access to your grandchildren,not 100% certain Naimh,someone will able to confirm this or not,but I'm certain I have seen a TV program about it.

Really? I'm not sure I'd agree with that if it is true unless the children used to live with them or something :think:

[Kazanne]

Really? I'm not sure I'd agree with that if it is true unless the children used to live with them or something :think:

It's probably something like this I have seen,I think it can be done as a last resort https://www.gov.uk/contact-grandchild-parents-divorce-separate

[smudgie]

Might sound a bit hash, but I would keep out of it.
If you have a decent relationship with your mother and your siblings why risk spoiling it.

My kids hardly saw my mother..she was a terrible mother and I would not want her malice and stupidity directed at my lovely kids.
There must be a reason behind it all, up to them to resolve it:shrug:

[Ammi]

..a really difficult situation for both you and your mum, truth..I think maybe before a relationship can be built with your brother's children and their grandmother, the one between your brothers and your mum has to be mended first if that's at all a possibility...because otherwise the children would just feel in the middle of it like you do now...I really hope that they can find a way for this to happen and for your mum to see her grandchildren....

[the truth]

she sends them presents every birthday and Christmas, she gets the odd card from the kids but never sees them....the sibling lives 70 miles away and has refused to invite my mother up there and wont bring them to her?

[Mokka]

I am sure you can go to court to get access to your grandchildren,not 100% certain Naimh,someone will able to confirm this or not,but I'm certain I have seen a TV program about it.

You can in Canada...

Not sure of the parameters. Very little cause is needed to get it into court... but what you need to prove to win... I don't know :shrug:

[Cherie]

she sends them presents every birthday and Christmas, she gets the odd card from the kids but never sees them....the sibling lives 70 miles away and has refused to invite my mother up there and wont bring them to her?

That is so sad, I hope they won't live to regret it, not sure how you can break the deadlock apart from hosting a family gathering :shrug:

[Ammi]

she sends them presents every birthday and Christmas, she gets the odd card from the kids but never sees them....the sibling lives 70 miles away and has refused to invite my mother up there and wont bring them to her?

..I really do feel for her and for you as well but I honestly don't know how this can be solved easily without trying to mend bridges with your siblings first but it would take for everyone to want and make that happen and if they won't then she may have to accept that, as hard as it is...maybe in the meantime, when she sends them gifts..?...and they send her cards etc..?..they could write to each other, she could tell them a bit about her life, let them get to know her/who she is and maybe they would write to her about things they've done and things they're looking forward to..?..

[the truth]

..I really do feel for her and for you as well but I honestly don't know how this can be solved easily without trying to mend bridges with your siblings first but it would take for everyone to want and make that happen and if they won't then she may have to accept that, as hard as it is...maybe in the meantime, when she sends them gifts..?...and they send her cards etc..?..they could write to each other, she could tell them a bit about her life, let them get to know her/who she is and maybe they would write to her about things they've done and things they're looking forward to..?..

yes that's a good idea....whether the parents intercept the letters is more than likely....sibling 1 didn't even attend my mothers house on the day of my dads funeral....but he made it to a wedding party the following day.

[Ammi]

yes that's a good idea....whether the parents intercept the letters is more than likely....sibling 1 didn't even attend my mothers house on the day of my dads funeral....but he made it to a wedding party the following day.

..there are obviously feelings there that sadly may not be easy to resolve or may never be resolved...families are complicated and feelings run deep as you know but it's wrong for them to involve their children and deny them the chance to get to know their grandmother and for her to spend time with them..but if it were possible for your to keep contact through letters and they with her then there will come a time though that, that the children will make their own decisions...I know that isn't really the solution that either of you are looking for but it may be all there is at the moment...there could be an option of going through courts/I'm not sure but that would be a long and difficult thing and only deteriorate the relationships even further with bad feelings and those bad feelings would probably be transferred to and influence the children against your mum and maybe make any possible future relationship with her and her grandchildren unlikely..... I honestly feel your pain and hers..:hug:..children should never be involved in things like this but sadly they so often are...their parents are taking their grandmother away from them and hurting them as much as they're hurting her...

[Kazanne]

You can in Canada...

Not sure of the parameters. Very little cause is needed to get it into court... but what you need to prove to win... I don't know :shrug:

I'm sure it's possible here too.

[Cherie]

yes that's a good idea....whether the parents intercept the letters is more than likely....sibling 1 didn't even attend my mothers house on the day of my dads funeral....but he made it to a wedding party the following day.

That makes it sound like something deep has happened in the past that goes beyond the usual family fall outs, It seems all you can do is concentrate on your own relationship with your Mum and make it as positive as it can be and leave them to it. Maybe encourage your Mum to pursue some interests that bring her out of the house to take the edge off her loneliness, as she can't depend on her children/grandchildren for this. If she gets on well with kids she could volunteer to help out at her local primary school maybe? Schools are always happy to have help with reading etc

[joeysteele]

These are horrendous situations and you have my full sympathy because for you in the middle of it and seeing the time pass by and your Mum's hurt too,is one of the worst things to be in as you can often feel so helpless.

There are no real legal rights for grandparents to have full contact with grandchildren but there is a court route, something like a contact order can be applied for which may or may not succeed, this could take the form of face to face contact or indirect contact such as cards, gifts and letters.

However, the odds are all stacked in who has the custody of the children's favour,it has to be shown,
a) that the children could be harmed by having no contact with grandparents by tthe grandparents and then accepted by a court,or
b) that the children may be harmed by having contact with grandparents from the Mother or parents of the children.

Really the court route can make matters far worse because with the odds stacked in the Mother's or both parents favour, losing such an application can make any rift for worse and maybe permamently beyond repair.
As the Mother or parents could get even more hostile after such an action.

The gentle route of maintaining gentle contact and mediation from a trusted source like yourself, may well be what opens up the main doors in the end.
Ammi, as ever has in my view given really sound advice and that really is the best way to go about this.
Once it becomes a part of legal action then the future has no guarantees at all of any success or that anything may be able to end up being resolved in the future.

You have a hard task there the truth, I wish you long patience, understanding and success in the end but it may end up sadly where until the children are older and then wish to see and seek out their grandparents or in your case their grandmother,that will have to be the thing hoped for.

Your Mum is doing right to send cards,letters and gifts, if they are not being returned then maybe all is far from lost.
I myself would have hated to have not been able to see my Grandmothers.

Good luck and all my very best wishes to you with hopes you, with others, can bring about some tolerance between all parties that ensures good things for the children,your Mum and your family too.
When heels are being dug in however, it is really a time thing,that may be short or long, I don't envy your position in this one bit but keep trying and who knows when a breakthrough may happen.
Please listen to Ammi.

[user104658]

Really? I'm not sure I'd agree with that if it is true unless the children used to live with them or something :think:
IIRC it is along those lines, grandparents can only claim a legal right to see grandchildren if it has been "usual" for them to be a big part of their lives: e.g. A grandparent looking after children every day after school until parents finish work, and then suddenly some rift resulting in ceased contact. If the grandparent didn't have any caring role like that then they really have no legal grounds... And rightly so, in my opinion.

My eldest daughter didn't see her grandparents on my wife's side from around 8 months until nearly 2 and a half. There was a falling out that involved that whole side of the family and, frankly, they were awful to my wife. Really, truly nasty things were said and we cut contact completely. At that point, also, they had a tendency to belittle her and treat her like a child (and a not very well respected child at that) and simply refused to form an equal, adult relationship. They weren't the best parents to her growing up, in various ways.

I actually had to threaten police involvement because my wife was being essentially harassed by text... Eventually we moved over 200 miles away (not for that reason, we had decided to relocate anyway) and my wife got a new mobile number and simply didn't give them any contact details.

We do see them semi regularly now, for the last 3 years or so, and things are generally fine when we do. For the mostpart they have finally accepted that they have to treat us with respect and as equals and if that starts to "slip" (which it does on occasion) conversations are simply put to a swift end and picked up again when they've calmed down. They're just very volatile people, basically.

Anyway, sort of going on a bit, my main point here is that it should always be the parents choice. My wife's parents are both outwardly very "normal", fairly well off, have good jobs, blah blah. They're very good at getting people "on side" and massively misrepresenting things for example, they successfully turned all of my wife's grandparents against her (she still hasn't forgiven one of her grandfathers for some of the things he said) and if there WERE legal avenues for grandparents to access their grandkids, I can almost guarantee that they would have taken them, and that they would have easily convinced a court to grant access, at a time when being forced to see them would have been utterly toxic for our little family and quite traumatic for my wife. It would also have bred a life-long resentment, when all that was really needed was space and time for the relationship to be properly reassessed.

Basically... I believe that unless there is some very strong evidence that parents are making bad decisions, it is essential that they be allowed to take a strong stance in any scenario and decide what's best for them as a family unit. No one should be entitled to undermine a parent's stance on these issues via legal avenues, unless there is a very good reason.

[user104658]

In answer to your question, truth, it sounds like there are very deep rifts there and if your mother wants that relationship then she's going to have to work hard to repair those rifts. If she can't, or won't, then she has to accept that she just isn't a part of their families.

[rubymoo]

In answer to your question, truth, it sounds like there are very deep rifts there and if your mother wants that relationship then she's going to have to work hard to repair those rifts. If she can't, or won't, then she has to accept that she just isn't a part of their families.

I would second this truth ^^^^^

I'm sort of in a similar situation, there's a deep rift between my dad and me, and that has led to me not going to see him and as a result he's not a part of my life, that's not because i don't want him to be a part of my life, i do....but there's only so many times you can give a person chances and only so many times you can be kicked when you're down, as a result he has no relationship with my children and yes it makes me sad, but it's now up to my dad to make amends as there is seriously nothing more i can do.

I think as TS said, it's down to your mum to make amends, i would stay out of it.

[Northern Monkey]

Hmm.Maybe try to appeal to the sibblings caring side and explain how lonely your mother is and how she needs her family more than ever at the moment.Also how cruel they are being by cutting her off like that.
You only get one mum.Explain how if they don't bite the bullet and swallow their pride they may regret their decision for the rest of their lives.Say that it's cruel for their kids to never get the opportunity to see their grandmother and they won't thank them for it when they get older.

[Josy]

Coming from someone that has a massive family with it's fair share of arguments and falling outs my honest advice would be to keep well out of it, I know it's hard to watch things like that going on and seeing your family members hurt and so on but regardless of how good your intentions are someone will turn on you at some point.

[user104658]

I agree with both Eyeball and Josy.

Hmm.Maybe try to appeal to the sibblings caring side and explain how lonely your mother is and how she needs her family more than ever at the moment.Also how cruel they are being by cutting her off like that.
You only get one mum.Explain how if they don't bite the bullet and swallow their pride they may regret their decision for the rest of their lives.Say that it's cruel for their kids to never get the opportunity to see their grandmother and they won't thank them for it when they get older.

I don't necessarily agree that it's "cruel" to have cut her off as we don't know the specifics of the falling out (and The Truth might not either, he only has various people's versions of what exactly has happened) and in some cases it can be totally justified...

... However I do agree that if she has the potential to be a good grandparent to the children (even if not the best parent) as with my in-laws, then it's worth trying to keep a "civil" relationship for the sake of the children having that extra person in their life. They could just make it clear that they don't want any judgement / advice / commentary on their own lives and just keep things friendly, polite but shallow in order to facilitate a relationship with the grandchildren.

Coming from someone that has a massive family with it's fair share of arguments and falling outs my honest advice would be to keep well out of it, I know it's hard to watch things like that going on and seeing your family members hurt and so on but regardless of how good your intentions are someone will turn on you at some point.

But then I also totally agree with this. If you don't want your own relationships damaged then you need to stay out of it. The whole "final straw" with my wife came when she stepped in to stand up for her (much) younger sister who was only 15 at the time and very unhappy at home (she ended up living with us for 3 months) and basically us speaking up for her resulted in a LOT of nastiness being thrown at us. Not that we would have done things any differently, someone had to stand up for her and my wife would choose protecting her little sister over a relationship with her parents, infinitely, but it is important to remember that if you choose to step in then you inevitably choose a "side" and put yourself in the firing line. Only get involved if you're truly prepared to do that, AND if you're sure that you really do know exactly what is going on.

[the truth]

im trying to think what else to tell you....my mother has suffered a bit with depression over the years...she has her faults and strengths etc shes quite outspoken in some ways...ive noticed than my siblings have always been very critical of her....theyre basically very critical people, not bad people just very critical. they rarely just enjoy stuff...the irony is though they have very thin skin and any criticism directed at them they take personally and hold onto it as a grudge. theyre pretty similar. I cant see any major rifts, my mother was a bit spendthrift , my dad was extraordinarily generous and hard working. maybe the felt she took advantage of that? but she did care for him when he got ill , for years, yet never once have they patted her on the back for that?now hes passed away sadly, and she doesn't get to see her grand kids?

[Ammi]

im trying to think what else to tell you....my mother has suffered a bit with depression over the years...she has her faults and strengths etc shes quite outspoken in some ways...ive noticed than my siblings have always been very critical of her....theyre basically very critical people, not bad people just very critical. they rarely just enjoy stuff...the irony is though they have very thin skin and any criticism directed at them they take personally and hold onto it as a grudge. theyre pretty similar. I cant see any major rifts, my mother was a bit spendthrift , my dad was extraordinarily generous and hard working. maybe the felt she took advantage of that? but she did care for him when he got ill , for years, yet never once have they patted her on the back for that?now hes passed away sadly, and she doesn't get to see her grand kids?

..I'm sure that your mum has always acted out of love and what she's thought best and tried to be a good parent, whether she's always got it right or not or whether it's always been taken the right way..?..this is why these things/families are just so complicated...I don't know, maybe 'outspoken' to your siblings has often felt like criticism of things they have done and maybe has never felt like support...so maybe they themselves through that have also become critical because that's what they have learned through their young lives..that's how it is, isn't it truth..?..we learn through example etc..we hug them, we make them feel confident and loved and they learn how to love..we criticise them and make them feel that they can't do stuff right and they learn how to criticise because they themselves don't feel confident and have low self esteem etc... and these things just go round and round and pass down and we don't even realise it..and yeah, I really do think that she's always probably acted in what she thinks is the best way and out of love but that's not necessarily what they're seeing or have seen because maybe they haven't felt that love...?...anyway, I honestly don't know but I do feel that she should be given a chance to form a relationship with her grandchildren and them with her...for your siblings sakes as well just because there is no point and no accommodation for regrets in the future should the chance be completely lost...but it is completely their decision as parents because they're also acting out of love and what they feel is the best thing for their children as well..

..I think the only thing for the moment is for your mum and siblings to see if there is a starting point where they could begin to mend their relationship and come to an understanding with each other and one hopefully which meant the children could get to know their grandmother and form their own views...I know this will take time and I guess in the meantime, if she is able to write and they write back to her or maybe if she's able to do email/you could help her understand the internet technology, they could have email contact...or texting..?..whichever though, I think it's important too that their parents have full knowledge and approve this as I don't think it would do anything but fuel negativity and probably make things worse if it was done without them knowing and being ok with it.... I wish you well/I wish you all well and hope that you all find a way with this...:hug:...

[lostalex]

i think you are in denial a bit about your mother. if 2 of her daughters can't stand her there must be a legitimate reason why. I doubt your sisters are just totally heartless cruel human beings, and "being sarcastic" is not the reason. I think you should love your mother the way you want to love her, but also respect your sisters to have their own relationships with her.

I hope this doesn't damage your relationship with your sisters, remember, your mother will be gone long before your sisters will.

[the truth]

i think you are in denial a bit about your mother. if 2 of her daughters can't stand her there must be a legitimate reason why. I doubt your sisters are just totally heartless cruel human beings, and "being sarcastic" is not the reason. I think you should love your mother the way you want to love her, but also respect your sisters to have their own relationships with her.

I hope this doesn't damage your relationship with your sisters, remember, your mother will be gone long before your sisters will.

1 is a brother 1 is a sister
what does your last line infer alex?