Young told to get a job or lose benefits - Earn OR learn

[Crimson Dynamo]

Young told to get a job or lose benefits: Tory 'earn or learn' plan to be at the heart of Cameron's first Queen's Speech


Cameron says Jobs Bill to form centrepiece of Queen's Speech on May 27
18-21-year-olds banned from Jobseekers Allowance or Housing Benefit
School leavers will have to get a job, apprenticeship or start training
Osborne says it will help to curb firms' reliance on migrant workers


School leavers will be forced to take a job or sign up for training under government plans to prepare young people for the world of work.

A Jobs Bill will be ‘at the heart’ of David Cameron’s first Tory Queen’s Speech, creating 3million apprenticeships and banning under-21s from claiming housing benefit or signing on to the dole.

Ministers include Chancellor George Osborne believe that giving young people the skills demanded by employers will also help to curb the number of migrants coming to Britain to take jobs.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3078424/Young-told-job-lose-benefits-Tory-earn-learn-plan-heart-Cameron-s-Queen-s-Speech.html#ixzz3a2dV3RMk


:clap1:


http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/11/28/davidcameron460.jpg

Another common sense policy from Dave that will chime with the UK wealth creators

[Glenn.]

Sounds good to me

[Cherie]

No argument with that, any job at that age will teach valuable life skills

[Denver]

What a ****ing twat maybe he should stop foreigners claiming benefits before the British

[Cherie]

What a ****ing twat maybe he should stop foreigners claiming benefits before the British

Won't some of these claimants be "foreigners"? Isn't it mainly young men coming to these fair shores to claim bennies allegedly :fan:

[Marsh.]

Won't some of these claimants be "foreigners"? Isn't it mainly young men coming to these fair shores to claim bennies allegedly :fan:

the truth is going to beat yo ass so hard. :fan:

[smudgie]

Hopefully more young adults will learn to read and write then.
Win win all round by the look of it.

[Jamesy]

Agree with the housing benefit (as long these young people have parents/guardians with homes to live in).

Although scrapping JSA in favour of a "Youth Allowance" doesn't look like it will make any difference. It will pretty much be the same as JSA judging by that article, if you want to get your benefits you do community work, training or some other form of free work with nothing in return apart from £50 or less a week. These things already do not work for people on JSA (under the bullying do-this-or-no-benefit scheme they do in every Job Centre), so shifting the young to an identical system under a difference name seems a waste of money to me.

I would rather see investment made in what already exists and make it better. The money that will be wasted on a new "Youth Allowance" benefit could be used to restructure the JSA and make it actually useful to the unemployed. Instead of the current system where you get literally zero help and get spoken to like you're a convicted criminal.

[Denver]

Won't some of these claimants be "foreigners"? Isn't it mainly young men coming to these fair shores to claim bennies allegedly :fan:

I've been to my local job centre where 85% are not British who signed on

[arista]

Yes Get Educated
Or Work


Climb the Ladder

[Tom4784]

Nice idea in theory but it won't work in practice. Apprenticeships and Entry level jobs are very competitive and 'training' and 'placements' seems like it'll just be free labour for companies with no hope of a job by the end of it.

I've been to my local job centre where 85% are not British who signed on

Pray do tell, how do you know they aren't British? Have you spoken to them? do you know their life stories? Also 85% is a specific number, how did you come up with that number exactly?

[Glenn.]

The thing that bothers me with youngsters leaving school these days is they have little or no concept at all about a working life. There are very few that manage to get themselves jobs towards the latter part of education, be it a part time job but a job nonetheless. The rest just file out and do next to nothing.

They should be teaching kids about the real world in school, not wasting precious hours of their school life learning Shakespeare and ridiculous algebra problems. They don't need that in their heads, they need a firm grasp of the real world.

I'm all for this, if it actually comes into fruition. But I think things could be better before these youngsters leave the safety of school.

[Denver]

Nice idea in theory but it won't work in practice. Apprenticeships and Entry level jobs are very competitive and 'training' and 'placements' seems like it'll just be free labour for companies with no hope of a job by the end of it.



Pray do tell, how do you know they aren't British? Have you spoken to them? do you know their life stories? Also 85% is a specific number, how did you come up with that number exactly?

You can tell by there accents. Are staff on this site allowed to be rude to other members and put down every opinion they have? That is all you done to me today its not right

[Glenn.]

Unless you can actually prove that they are in fact foreigners that's a pretty sweeping generalisation. An ignorant one.

[Denver]

Unless you can actually prove that they are in fact foreigners that's a pretty sweeping generalisation. An ignorant one.

I live in a town full of foreigners I think I know thank you very much

[Tom4784]

You can tell by there accents. Are staff on this site allowed to be rude to other members and put down every opinion they have? That is all you done to me today its not right

I'm asking you questions, it is not a crime.

[Glenn.]

I live in a town full of foreigners I think I know thank you very much

I could say that about where I live because I see a few in passing on the street. Doesn't make it fact.

[empire]

I believe banning housing benefits is right, but I would increase the dole money to minimum wage level, if they can find work for voluntary place, for two days a week, work schemes are useless and rip you off, you will never find work in those places, work schemes are the biggest waste of money, I think them places make you lazy and come out with less confidence, tory's only got one part of it right but the rest wrong, younger british workers are being turned away from fair paid jobs to cheap eastern Europe workers, who milk the system, and are not forced with the same policy,

[Cherie]

I've been to my local job centre where 85% are not British who signed on


You have to start somewhere, start with those who mainly live at home and have not paid into the system.

The thing that bothers me with youngsters leaving school these days is they have little or no concept at all about a working life. There are very few that manage to get themselves jobs towards the latter part of education, be it a part time job but a job nonetheless. The rest just file out and do next to nothing.

They should be teaching kids about the real world in school, not wasting precious hours of their school life learning Shakespeare and ridiculous algebra problems. They don't need that in their heads, they need a firm grasp of the real world.

I'm all for this, if it actually comes into fruition. But I think things could be better before these youngsters leave the safety of school.


:omgno:I'm agreeing with Glenn.

[Denver]

I could say that about where I live because I see a few in passing on the street. Doesn't make it fact.

Obviously you don't live here so you have no clue about my town.

Only 2 types of foreigners should be allowed to live in the UK

1) Those taking skilled jobs

2) Those whose lives are at risk in there own country

[Tom4784]

Obviously you don't live here so you have no clue about my town.

Only 2 types of foreigners should be allowed to live in the UK

1) Those taking skilled jobs

2) Those whose lives are at risk in there own country

Why?

[Glenn.]

Obviously you don't live here so you have no clue about my town.

Only 2 types of foreigners should be allowed to live in the UK

1) Those taking skilled jobs

2) Those whose lives are at risk in there own country

Maybe you should move then if they bother you so much?

[Denver]

You have to start somewhere, start with those who mainly live at home and have not paid into the system.



I live in a town where most jobs are seasonal so for me I'm only working 6/7 months a year every job I had I've paid into the system but I know how hard it is to be young and trying to get a job

[Denver]

Why?

Because it takes jobs/benefits from British people who need them

[Denver]

Maybe you should move then if they bother you so much?

Why should i have to move this is my country I should have rights

[Tom4784]

Because it takes jobs/benefits from British people who need them

Where's the evidence of this? What's the reasoning behind your criteria? If Immigrants taking unskilled jobs is so bad then surely immigrants taking jobs from hardworking Graduates is even worse?

If Immigrants are 'taking our jobs' why do you think this is the case?

I'm just trying to understand your point of view here.

[Denver]

Where's the evidence of this? What's the reasoning behind your criteria? If Immigrants taking unskilled jobs is so bad then surely immigrants taking jobs from hardworking Graduates is even worse?

If Immigrants are 'taking our jobs' why do you think this is the case?

I'm just trying to understand your point of view here.

Skilled jobs like Doctors and Nurse's are desperately needed in britian

[joeysteele]

To be fair to the govt; the original proposals of this was to have the age set at under 25s,it seems they have conceded a little that was perhaps too high and have made it under 21s

Any policy that helps, 'genuinely helps',rather than dictates, has to be welcomed so young people are never left to feel failures

I would like to see this work and am pleased to see it has been reduced to under 21s,rather than under 25s.
However, it would be even nicer if it took other circumstances into consideration too as on a personal level rather than a blanket policy overall.

[Cherie]

I live in a town where most jobs are seasonal so for me I'm only working 6/7 months a year every job I had I've paid into the system but I know how hard it is to be young and trying to get a job

People in your situation should be treated differently, they probably won't though.

[Cherie]

To be fair to the govt; the original proposals of this was to have the age set at under 25s,it seems they have conceded a little that was perhaps too high and have made it under 21s

Any policy that helps, 'genuinely helps',rather than dictates, has to be welcomed so young people are never left to feel failures

I would like to see this work and am pleased to see it has been reduced to under 21s,rather than under 25s.
However, it would be even nicer if it took other circumstances into consideration too as on a personal level rather than a blanket policy overall.

Agree with all your points Joey

[Tom4784]

Skilled jobs like Doctors and Nurse's are desperately needed in britian

I'd disagree with this statement, it's quite difficult to get a medical job these days, especially in the current climate. Like with most job markets, it's competitive.

I've got another question, if you wished to move to another country would you expect the same restrictions be placed on you? That you couldn't move unless you were in danger or if you had a highly skilled job? Define highly skilled job because if we're just talking medical professions then few people would ever be able to emigrate.

[Denver]

I'd disagree with this statement, it's quite difficult to get a medical job these days, especially in the current climate. Like with most job markets, it's competitive.

I've got another question, if you wished to move to another country would you expect the same restrictions be placed on you? That you couldn't move unless you were in danger or if you had a highly skilled job? Define highly skilled job because if we're just talking medical professions then few people would ever be able to emigrate.

Places like Aus actually require something like this.

I would only move to another country if I felt It was best for everyone but I'd never rely on another nation government/handouts as I have no rights to them.

If I knew I was stopping someone else getting a job in there own country no way would I take it as I know what its like to struggle with finding work.

[Tom4784]

Places like Aus actually require something like this.

I would only move to another country if I felt It was best for everyone but I'd never rely on another nation government/handouts as I have no rights to them.

If I knew I was stopping someone else getting a job in there own country no way would I take it as I know what its like to struggle with finding work.

I think that's quite a rosy and unrealisitc outlook of the situation.

Surely if you're better suited for a role, it doesn't matter if you are an immigrant or were born here, you deserve the job more than the less qualified candidates.

[Denver]

I think that's quite a rosy and unrealisitc outlook of the situation.

Surely if you're better suited for a role, it doesn't matter if you are an immigrant or were born here, you deserve the job more than the less qualified candidates.

As I said I'd take it if IIT was best for everyone including the company if they needed me then I'd definitely consider taking it but I wouldn't if I was say equally matched to another candidate

[Tom4784]

As I said I'd take it if IIT was best for everyone including the company if they needed me then I'd definitely consider taking it but I wouldn't if I was say equally matched to another candidate

That's quite an easy statement to make but harder to live up to.

[the truth]

this is awesome news, bravo cameron

[user104658]

I have no problem with this so long as these young people are paid for any hours they're doing. Having a slightly lower wage for under 21's is fine, so long as we're still talking at least £4.50 - £5 an hour and not something ridiculous like the situations where some people are doing voluntary work for the equivalent of less than £2 an hour. That's never acceptable and, of course, if it really is about teaching people about the real world of work... In the real world, people get paid for their work.

[the truth]

I have no problem with this so long as these young people are paid for any hours they're doing. Having a slightly lower wage for under 21's is fine, so long as we're still talking at least £4.50 - £5 an hour and not something ridiculous like the situations where some people are doing voluntary work for the equivalent of less than £2 an hour. That's never acceptable and, of course, if it really is about teaching people about the real world of work... In the real world, people get paid for their work.

there is a minimum wage for 18 to 21 yr olds....at that age I did any and every job for peanuts often to get experience and find contacts make relationships and get my foot under the door....some of the best times of my life and a zillion light years better than queuing in the job centre for a giro cheque

[Tom4784]

I have no problem with this so long as these young people are paid for any hours they're doing. Having a slightly lower wage for under 21's is fine, so long as we're still talking at least £4.50 - £5 an hour and not something ridiculous like the situations where some people are doing voluntary work for the equivalent of less than £2 an hour. That's never acceptable and, of course, if it really is about teaching people about the real world of work... In the real world, people get paid for their work.

Yeah, I'd be all for this if it was paid work but you just know it's basically going to be community service and that **** is useless, you can't even put it on your CV since it makes you look bad.

[Piipp]

I believe banning housing benefits is right, but I would increase the dole money to minimum wage level, if they can find work for voluntary place, for two days a week, work schemes are useless and rip you off, you will never find work in those places, work schemes are the biggest waste of money, I think them places make you lazy and come out with less confidence, tory's only got one part of it right but the rest wrong, younger british workers are being turned away from fair paid jobs to cheap eastern Europe workers, who milk the system, and are not forced with the same policy,

We run work schemes in my workplace all the time and the large majority of those who have taken them have ended up with a job at the end of it. They work very well, provided those on the placement actually want to work.

[the truth]

We run work schemes in my workplace all the time and the large majority of those who have taken them have ended up with a job at the end of it. They work very well, provided those on the placement actually want to work.

work placements are always the best step forward

[the truth]

People in your situation should be treated differently, they probably won't though.lucky for him the tories are keeping zero hour contracts....you cant have 12 month contracts for seasonal jobs, idiotic new labour don't seem to have worked that out yet

[Samuel.]

What will the loss of housing benefit mean for the many 18 to 21 year olds relying on youth hostels?

[Kizzy]

What will the loss of housing benefit mean for the many 18 to 21 year olds relying on youth hostels?

Orphans...who cares about them?
This is the beginning of some horrific proposals, hold on to your hat.

[the truth]

Orphans...who cares about them?
This is the beginning of some horrific proposals, hold on to your hat.

there are exceptions to the rule....but more will work , more will develop skills and develop discipline and work ethic...the sick and disabled will be protected rightly and the muppets who breed for benefits will be curtailed

[joeysteele]

Orphans...who cares about them?
This is the beginning of some horrific proposals, hold on to your hat.

I was pleased to see that age down from under 25s to under 21s, although we are still talking about 'official' adults here, aged 18 to 21.

You are right however,this is going ahead,I dread what is coming for the sick and disabled,it was way too severe and unacceptable the last 5 years.
Never mind what is being planned now against them.

Had he shifted Ian Duncan Smith, I may have hoped for a bit better,with that creep still in place,I almost despair for the most vulnerable now.

[the truth]

I was pleased to see that age down from under 25s to under 21s, although we are still talking about 'official' adults here, aged 18 to 21.

You are right however,this is going ahead,I dread what is coming for the sick and disabled,it was way too severe and unacceptable the last 5 years.
Never mind what is being planned now against them.

Had he shifted Ian Duncan Smith, I may have hoped for a bit better,with that cretin still in place,I almost despair for the most vulnerable now.

there is more money with the tories due to enormous jos growth and rise in gdp...so theres more to spread around and the tories have drawn a line between who deserves and who doesn't....so theres more chance of the real deserving recipients getting money than ever before....nothing has been done against the disabled? the benefits have gone up with inflation, Cameron said he wouldn't touch them...although a lot of the cheats have been caught out..... in fact more money has been invested into the nhs under the tories than labour plus they've scaled back the enormous waste corruption and middle management. all of which means more money for the front end....Cameron is targeting the workless people , the people who breed for benefits. his policies already clearly are targeting those non disabled people who choose not to work

[joeysteele]

there is more money with the tories due to enormous jos growth and rise in gdp...so theres more to spread around and the tories have drawn a line between who deserves and who doesn't....so theres more chance of the real deserving recipients getting money than ever before....nothing has been done against the disabled? the benefits have gone up with inflation, Cameron said he wouldn't touch them...although a lot of the cheats have been caught out..... in fact more money has been invested into the nhs under the tories than labour plus they've scaled back the enormous waste corruption and middle management. all of which means more money for the front end....Cameron is targeting the workless people , the people who breed for benefits. his policies already clearly are targeting those non disabled people who choose not to work

Sorry that is nonsense, and 10 billion pounds of cuts are now having to be found by this govt; that they would not say what they would be cutting.
Only what they wouldn't
Pensioner entitlements,child benefit.the only things left are jobseekers, they cannot save much from that it is only a palty weekly figure anyway.
They can hit carers allowance,which will hit the disabled.

Also if you think they did nothing against the sick and disabled, then get along to some of these re-assessments the sick and disabled have to attend and see how rotten they are treated there too.

PIP replacing DLA,is a nightmare to get, people have avoided claiming it unless they are pushed by some authority to do so.

People really ill with cancer, dementia and incurable conditions, worse still those with mental health problems, taken off what was incapacity, told they can do some work ad to claim jobseekers,or put in the wrag as to ESA, rather than the support group of ESA, where they should be.
having to endure endless months and up to a year or moreof fighting to get their rightful benefits restored to them.

People having to go to court who are sick and disabled,just to get their rightful entitlements, needing social workers and Doctors to provide endless evidence to support their claims.

That is what has happened to the sick, disabled and most vulnerable during this rotten heartless govt's; last 5 years in power.
maybe not where you are as you seem to live in a state of Utopia, in the rest of the real world however that is what is happening.
Try to get yourself along to the ATOS style re-assessments of the sick and disabled,you may just get an eye opener.

[Kizzy]

Sorry that is nonsense, and 10 billion pounds of cuts are now having to be found by this govt; that they would not say what they would be cutting.
Only what they wouldn't
Pensioner entitlements,child benefit.the only things left are jobseekers, they cannot save much from that it is only a palty weekly figure anyway.
They can hit carers allowance,which will hit the disabled.

Also if you think they did nothing against the sick and disabled, then get along to some of these re-assessments the sick and disabled have to attend and see how rotten they are treated there too.

PIP replacing DLA,is a nightmare to get, people have avoided claiming it unless they are pushed by some authority to do so.

People really ill with cancer, dementia and incurable conditions, worse still those with mental health problems, taken off what was incapacity, told they can do some work ad to claim jobseekers,or put in the wrag as to ESA, rather than the support group of ESA, where they should be.
having to endure endless months and up to a year or moreof fighting to get their rightful benefits restored to them.

People having to go to court who are sick and disabled,just to get their rightful entitlements, needing social workers and Doctors to provide endless evidence to support their claims.

That is what has happened to the sick, disabled and most vulnerable during this rotten heartless govt's; last 5 years in power.
maybe not where you are as you seem to live in a state of Utopia, in the rest of the real world however that is what is happening.
Try to get yourself along to the ATOS style re-assessments of the sick and disabled,you may just get an eye opener.

Fantastic informative post Joey thankyou so much :)

[the truth]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;7767286]Sorry that is nonsense, and 10 billion pounds of cuts are now having to be found by this govt; that they would not say what they would be cutting.
Only what they wouldn't

Pensioner entitlements,

child benefit - will be cut to visitors and qualification periods will extend up to 5 years. that's great and its fair, people must pay national insurance just like everyone else

.the only things left are jobseekers, they cannot save much from that it is only a palty weekly figure anyway. - they are not allowing 18 to 21 yr olds to go on this without either being on courses learning skills or working
They can hit carers allowance,which will hit the disabled.-labour hit carers allowance and cancelled it for pensioners too. labour also failed to merge the social service and health trust on home care. they also failed to claim back on the private medical carers insurance wasting the economy billions more

Also if you think they did nothing against the sick and disabled, then get along to some of these re-assessments the sick and disabled have to attend and see how rotten they are treated there too.- these were fair enough. the really sick and really disabled kept their benefits, even those treated unfairly had the right to appeal and appeal. millions claimed it falsely simply through developing poor health through poor lifestyle choices and obesity. that is a whole world away from having a disability



PIP replacing DLA,is a nightmare to get, people have avoided claiming it unless they are pushed by some authority to do so.....that makes no sense. pip pays more in many cases and seems to have weeded out the many cheats.

People really ill with cancer, dementia and incurable conditions, worse still those with mental health problems, taken off what was incapacity, told they can do some work ad to claim jobseekers,or put in the wrag as to ESA, rather than the support group of ESA, where they should be.
having to endure endless months and up to a year or moreof fighting to get their rightful benefits restored to them.

THIS point I partly agree with....too many fell through the incapacity gap. of course millions milked it before and wasted billions....but the tories need to get much better at managing this and weeding out the fakes from the genuine people....no one with the conditions you outline should ever lose this benefit imo...on the upside more money is going into the nhs under the conservatives than under labour and this will rise again with a growing economy and a less wasteful less burocratic nhs

People having to go to court who are sick and disabled,just to get their rightful entitlements, needing social workers and Doctors to provide endless evidence to support their claims. you make a valid point but exaggerate somewhat. - again this is a very sad downside to trying to weed out the cheats....in most cases the genuine claimants did get their benefits back. doctors can be hard to get to see too , their secretaries are like pitbulls, social workers need to fight for these people. weve seen how appalling social workers can be in the endless cover ups
That is what has happened to the sick, disabled and most vulnerable during this rotten heartless govt's; last 5 years in power.
maybe not where you are as you seem to live in a state of Utopia, in the rest of the real world however that is what is happening.
sarcasm is the lowest form of wit....in many topic areas ive outlined how things are way worse here in mid wales than other places...

Try to get yourself along to the ATOS style re-assessments of the sick and disabled,you may just get an eye opener.- you need the eye opener...try and look at the gurnos estate in Merthyr to find a sea of workless demotivated uneducated ambiton free people, often labour voters through fear of losing their benefits....through lifestyle choices imposed by the sick new labour doctrine... a doctrine that saw the workless young people multiplying to millions, breeding for benefits getting a much bigger disposable income than working people? all footed by the hard working tax payers....then needing millions of immigrants to work these menial jobs their own people could no longer feel motivated to do? Try look at the way labour left Iraq after their illegal war, try look at the debts they left, try look at the thousands dead in the Stafford cover up, the endless mrsa filthy bugs across british hospitals under labour helping to kill thousands, the massive growth in nhs middle management, the fall in welsh labour nhs investment the waste of the gold, the lies the spin the deceit of new labour....maybe you need the eye opener

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;7767286]Sorry that is nonsense, and 10 billion pounds of cuts are now having to be found by this govt; that they would not say what they would be cutting.
Only what they wouldn't

Pensioner entitlements,

child benefit - will be cut to visitors and qualification periods will extend up to 5 years. that's great and its fair, people must pay national insurance just like everyone else

.the only things left are jobseekers, they cannot save much from that it is only a palty weekly figure anyway. - they are not allowing 18 to 21 yr olds to go on this without either being on courses learning skills or working
They can hit carers allowance,which will hit the disabled.-labour hit carers allowance and cancelled it for pensioners too. labour also failed to merge the social service and health trust on home care. they also failed to claim back on the private medical carers insurance wasting the economy billions more

Also if you think they did nothing against the sick and disabled, then get along to some of these re-assessments the sick and disabled have to attend and see how rotten they are treated there too.- these were fair enough. the really sick and really disabled kept their benefits, even those treated unfairly had the right to appeal and appeal. millions claimed it falsely simply through developing poor health through poor lifestyle choices and obesity. that is a whole world away from having a disability



PIP replacing DLA,is a nightmare to get, people have avoided claiming it unless they are pushed by some authority to do so.....that makes no sense. pip pays more in many cases and seems to have weeded out the many cheats.

People really ill with cancer, dementia and incurable conditions, worse still those with mental health problems, taken off what was incapacity, told they can do some work ad to claim jobseekers,or put in the wrag as to ESA, rather than the support group of ESA, where they should be.
having to endure endless months and up to a year or moreof fighting to get their rightful benefits restored to them.

THIS point I partly agree with....too many fell through the incapacity gap. of course millions milked it before and wasted billions....but the tories need to get much better at managing this and weeding out the fakes from the genuine people....no one with the conditions you outline should ever lose this benefit imo...on the upside more money is going into the nhs under the conservatives than under labour and this will rise again with a growing economy and a less wasteful less burocratic nhs

People having to go to court who are sick and disabled,just to get their rightful entitlements, needing social workers and Doctors to provide endless evidence to support their claims. you make a valid point but exaggerate somewhat. - again this is a very sad downside to trying to weed out the cheats....in most cases the genuine claimants did get their benefits back. doctors can be hard to get to see too , their secretaries are like pitbulls, social workers need to fight for these people. weve seen how appalling social workers can be in the endless cover ups
That is what has happened to the sick, disabled and most vulnerable during this rotten heartless govt's; last 5 years in power.
maybe not where you are as you seem to live in a state of Utopia, in the rest of the real world however that is what is happening.
sarcasm is the lowest form of wit....in many topic areas ive outlined how things are way worse here in mid wales than other places...

Try to get yourself along to the ATOS style re-assessments of the sick and disabled,you may just get an eye opener.- you need the eye opener...try and look at the gurnos estate in Merthyr to find a sea of workless demotivate duneducated ambiton free people, lifestyle choices imposed by the sick new labour doctrine, try look at the way labour left Iraq, try look at the debts they left, try look at the thousands dead in the Stafford cover up, the endless mrsa filthy bugs across british hospitals under labour helping to kill thousands, the massive growth in nhs middle management, the fall in welsh labour nhs investment the waste of the gold, the lies the spin the deceit of new labour....maybe you need the eye opener

I recognise very little of your responses.

PIP is a nightmare, the delays in claiming it are horrendous, I was involved in the assisting of a lady claiming it,it took 7 months to get,also for the greater number of those on DLA,they have not yet been re-assessed for PIP, they are still on DLA.
Mostly PIP is only being dealt with as to new claimants of disability,not existing ones,
So likely no cheat has been weeded out as you try to point out.

You are obsessed with benefit cheats,there are according to the 'official' figures, I know you don't like official figures,less than 1% of claimants doing so wrongly.
What on earth has Stafford to do with cuts to benefits too,or is that your way to get onto the NHS which is another of your hates from Doctors down to especially the Nursing staff.

The NHS will always have things go wrong, and they are now, never mind just when Labour were in power.
The NHS has nothing to do with benefit cuts however and this thread does, so I won't humour your endless criticism and put down of the NHS here.

I can agree Labour should have done more about social care and theyw ere planning to in 2009,in talks with the Lib Dems, talks Andrew Lansley of the Conservative opposition would not take part in as to trying to find the best way to do same.

This govt; has made a mess of social care,over the last 5 years, we have elderly people kept in hospital for months because there is no social care in place to get them back in their homes after 5 years of this govt:
This govt; terms those elderly people, 'bed blockers'.

Really, is that the best you can come up with.
The govt' will save housing benefit from the under 21s, how much will that actually save and how much of that will then reduce the 10 billion of cuts to welfare this govt; is now committed to.
I can tell you not a penny, because these plans today are already accounted for in the 2 billion of specified welfare cuts the Conservatives made in the election.

None of what you list above, will be making up in any way, part of the 'extra 10 billion of cuts they are committed to finding in welfare alone.

If they hit carers allowance now, they will really hit the sick and disabled more than ever before.
Carers allowance has reduced in value over this govts; time in power,due to rising costs, if they hit it now, it will likely mean people ill get less care.
the point is they are hitting the wrong people to scratch a bit of savings here and there while doing nothing about raking in the funds they should from those at the top miking across the system.

So again, I ask you where are the 10 billion pounds of extra welfare cuts going to hit.
All you listed above is already specified in the 2 billion pounds of cuts from welfare, they need to find another 10 billion.
They say not from pensioners, not from child benefit,that then only leaves the sick, disabled and most vulnerable left.

They could of course do one thing,extend the bedroom charge to pensioners living on their own in social housing,that may ease the cuts to the sick and disabled.
Wait again however, no they cannot, they are doing nothing at all as to pensioners so cannot do that.
Back to square one, they are only left with the sick and disabled to find saving of an extra 10 billion pounds from then.

I feel pretty sure that is where they are going, and it is why they would not even indicate what that 10 billion pounds of welfare cuts would be made up from during the election.
If and when they do so, for me it will be the most despicable act and cowardly act of any govt; past or present.

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;7767286]Sorry that is nonsense, and 10 billion pounds of cuts are now having to be found by this govt; that they would not say what they would be cutting.
Only what they wouldn't

Pensioner entitlements,

child benefit - will be cut to visitors and qualification periods will extend up to 5 years. that's great and its fair, people must pay national insurance just like everyone else

.the only things left are jobseekers, they cannot save much from that it is only a palty weekly figure anyway. - they are not allowing 18 to 21 yr olds to go on this without either being on courses learning skills or working
They can hit carers allowance,which will hit the disabled.-labour hit carers allowance and cancelled it for pensioners too. labour also failed to merge the social service and health trust on home care. they also failed to claim back on the private medical carers insurance wasting the economy billions more

Also if you think they did nothing against the sick and disabled, then get along to some of these re-assessments the sick and disabled have to attend and see how rotten they are treated there too.- these were fair enough. the really sick and really disabled kept their benefits, even those treated unfairly had the right to appeal and appeal. millions claimed it falsely simply through developing poor health through poor lifestyle choices and obesity. that is a whole world away from having a disability



PIP replacing DLA,is a nightmare to get, people have avoided claiming it unless they are pushed by some authority to do so.....that makes no sense. pip pays more in many cases and seems to have weeded out the many cheats.

People really ill with cancer, dementia and incurable conditions, worse still those with mental health problems, taken off what was incapacity, told they can do some work ad to claim jobseekers,or put in the wrag as to ESA, rather than the support group of ESA, where they should be.
having to endure endless months and up to a year or moreof fighting to get their rightful benefits restored to them.

THIS point I partly agree with....too many fell through the incapacity gap. of course millions milked it before and wasted billions....but the tories need to get much better at managing this and weeding out the fakes from the genuine people....no one with the conditions you outline should ever lose this benefit imo...on the upside more money is going into the nhs under the conservatives than under labour and this will rise again with a growing economy and a less wasteful less burocratic nhs

People having to go to court who are sick and disabled,just to get their rightful entitlements, needing social workers and Doctors to provide endless evidence to support their claims. you make a valid point but exaggerate somewhat. - again this is a very sad downside to trying to weed out the cheats....in most cases the genuine claimants did get their benefits back. doctors can be hard to get to see too , their secretaries are like pitbulls, social workers need to fight for these people. weve seen how appalling social workers can be in the endless cover ups
That is what has happened to the sick, disabled and most vulnerable during this rotten heartless govt's; last 5 years in power.
maybe not where you are as you seem to live in a state of Utopia, in the rest of the real world however that is what is happening.
sarcasm is the lowest form of wit....in many topic areas ive outlined how things are way worse here in mid wales than other places...

Try to get yourself along to the ATOS style re-assessments of the sick and disabled,you may just get an eye opener.- you need the eye opener...try and look at the gurnos estate in Merthyr to find a sea of workless demotivated uneducated ambiton free people, often labour voters through fear of losing their benefits....through lifestyle choices imposed by the sick new labour doctrine... a doctrine that saw the workless young people multiplying to millions, breeding for benefits getting a much bigger disposable income than working people? all footed by the hard working tax payers....then needing millions of immigrants to work these menial jobs their own people could no longer feel motivated to do? Try look at the way labour left Iraq after their illegal war, try look at the debts they left, try look at the thousands dead in the Stafford cover up, the endless mrsa filthy bugs across british hospitals under labour helping to kill thousands, the massive growth in nhs middle management, the fall in welsh labour nhs investment the waste of the gold, the lies the spin the deceit of new labour....maybe you need the eye opener

I think Merthyr was the worst possible example you could've picked to make this point.
I think looking back to the things that have happened historically in this and other mining/ steel towns for the reasoning behind the community malaise.

[the truth]

[QUOTE=the truth;7767426]

I think Merthyr was the worst possible example you could've picked to make this point.
I think looking back to the things that have happened historically in this and other mining/ steel towns for the reasoning behind the community malaise.

I disagree. Merthyr is a heartbreaking place that new labour did nothing about in 13 years.....we are all well aware of the pure evil of Thatcherism.....but what did labour to do turn back Thatcherism in Merthyr and the like? absolutely nothing, in fact they made it worse and enslaved them in welfare dependency for a whole generation

[letmein]

Yes Get Educated
Or Work


Climb the Ladder

How about typing out sentences on one line? :joker:

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7767510]

I disagree. Merthyr is a heartbreaking place that new labour did nothing about in 13 years.....we are all well aware of the pure evil of Thatcherism.....but what did labour to do turn back Thatcherism in Merthyr and the like? absolutely nothing, in fact they made it worse and enslaved them in welfare dependency for a whole generation

I think it's a given that the Blair years were just a taster for the true blue austerity of the last 5yrs and that for the 5 to come.
Has Merthyr had any regeneration over the last 5yrs to predict a favourable move away from what Ed milliband was suggesting, a return to the traditional Labour values which enabled all areas of the UK to thrive not just concentrate the focus on the south?

[Crimson Dynamo]

How about typing out sentences on one line? :joker:

:nono:

not good for members looking

on their mobile phone devices

[jennyjuniper]

To make this possible, first you have to be able to stop thousands of migrant workers from coming to Britain. That's not possible thanks to the bloody EU. Because as long as migrant workers are willing to work for less than the minimum wage, then bosses will continue to employ them.

[Kizzy]

To make this possible, first you have to be able to stop thousands of migrant workers from coming to Britain. That's not possible thanks to the bloody EU. Because as long as migrant workers are willing to work for less than the minimum wage, then bosses will continue to employ them.

How can they be employed legally on less than minimum wage, how is it the fault of the employees that employers are exploiting them?

[MTVN]

^ Agree, that's a problem of law enforcement not immigration

[Cherie]

How can they be employed legally on less than minimum wage, how is it the fault of the employees that employers are exploiting them?

^ Agree, that's a problem of law enforcement not immigration

:clap1:

[Nedusa]

Obviously you don't live here so you have no clue about my town.

Only 2 types of foreigners should be allowed to live in the UK

1) Those taking skilled jobs

2) Those whose lives are at risk in there own country

I don't agree that anyone whose life is at risk in their home Country should be automatically allowed entry into the UK.

When did the UK become a bottomless pit of refuge for the worlds asylum seekers. Maybe Canada would be more suited to this role or Australia as they are vastly larger Countries.

[arista]

How about typing out sentences on one line? :joker:


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/21/article-2633986-1E0756CE00000578-601_306x423.jpg

[kirklancaster]

How can they be employed legally on less than minimum wage, how is it the fault of the employees that employers are exploiting them?

Realism is needed here dear. Jenny DID NOT specify 'legally employed', she said; " Because as long as migrant workers are willing to work for less than the minimum wage, then bosses will continue to employ them" which covers the very real FACT that thousands of immigrants are employed in this country by unscrupulous employers for far LESS than the minimum wage because:

A) The employment is illegal and not 'on the books'.
B) The immigrants - unlike our home grown 'unemployed' - willingly undertake such 'employment.

This REALITY is existent in diverse industries, from Construction to 'Winkle Picking' and CANNOT be DENIED - even by extreme Left Wingers.

This being so, then the fact remains, that because our 'Home Grown' UNEMPLOYED are NOT WILLING to SUPPLY this DEMAND for workers on an 'OFF THE BOOKS' paltry wage basis, but immigrants ARE WILLING, then the employers are NOT BEING FORCED to employ genuine workers ON THE BOOKS for at least the MINIMUM WAGE - something which they would be forced to do otherwise.

Therefore, Jenny is CORRECT.

[Kizzy]

Realism is needed here dear. Jenny DID NOT specify 'legally employed', she said; " Because as long as migrant workers are willing to work for less than the minimum wage, then bosses will continue to employ them" which covers the very real FACT that thousands of immigrants are employed in this country by unscrupulous employers for far LESS than the minimum wage because:

A) The employment is illegal and not 'on the books'.
B) The immigrants - unlike our home grown 'unemployed' - willingly undertake such 'employment.

This REALITY is existent in diverse industries, from Construction to 'Winkle Picking' and CANNOT be DENIED - even by extreme Left Wingers.

This being so, then the fact remains, that because our 'Home Grown' UNEMPLOYED are NOT WILLING to SUPPLY this DEMAND for workers on an 'OFF THE BOOKS' paltry wage basis, but immigrants ARE WILLING, then the employers are NOT BEING FORCED to employ genuine workers ON THE BOOKS for at least the MINIMUM WAGE - something which they would be forced to do otherwise.

Therefore, Jenny is CORRECT.

Don't patronise me please. If they are employed legally or illegally it is still not the fault of the employee, if Jenny wishes to clarify I'm sure she will.

Here is a government compiled list of those failing to pay their employees the national minimum wage, they cross many sectors.

'A further 70 employers who failed to pay their workers the National Minimum Wage (NMW) have been named today (24 February 2015) by Business Minister Jo Swinson, bringing the overall total named and shamed to 162.

Between them, these 70 employers owed workers a total of over £157,000 in arrears and have been charged financial penalties totalling over £70,000.

The government has already named 92 employers since the new naming regime came into force in October 2013. They had total arrears of over £316,000 and total penalties of over £111,000.

To support the minimum wage crackdown, the government will also be increasing HMRC’s £9.2 million enforcement budget by a further £3 million, helping to fund more than 70 extra compliance officers.'

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-names-and-shames-largest-ever-number-of-national-minimum-wage-offenders

[kirklancaster]

Don't patronise me please. If they are employed legally or illegally it is still not the fault of the employee, if Jenny wishes to clarify I'm sure she will.

Here is a government compiled list of those failing to pay their employees the national minimum wage, they cross many sectors.

'A further 70 employers who failed to pay their workers the National Minimum Wage (NMW) have been named today (24 February 2015) by Business Minister Jo Swinson, bringing the overall total named and shamed to 162.

Between them, these 70 employers owed workers a total of over £157,000 in arrears and have been charged financial penalties totalling over £70,000.

The government has already named 92 employers since the new naming regime came into force in October 2013. They had total arrears of over £316,000 and total penalties of over £111,000.

To support the minimum wage crackdown, the government will also be increasing HMRC’s £9.2 million enforcement budget by a further £3 million, helping to fund more than 70 extra compliance officers.'

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-names-and-shames-largest-ever-number-of-national-minimum-wage-offenders

:laugh: I am no more patronising you Kiz than you do me when you tell me to get 'perspective' (well, perhaps just a smudging so - but teasingly so)

The point is our different perspectives;

to you - it is ALL the fault of the unscrupulous employers.

To me the immigrants ACCEPTING the illegal jobs-On-The-Side are just as culpable - more so, because they have come to a country which has welcomed them in but then blatantly break laws which they know to be wrong in any language.

The end result is that - as Jenny stated - it is damaging to our economy.

[Kizzy]

:laugh: I am no more patronising you Kiz than you do me when you tell me to get 'perspective' (well, perhaps just a smudging so - but teasingly so)

The point is our different perspectives;

to you - it is ALL the fault of the unscrupulous employers.

To me the immigrants ACCEPTING the illegal jobs-On-The-Side are just as culpable - more so, because they have come to a country which has welcomed them in but then blatantly break laws which they know to be wrong in any language.

The end result is that - as Jenny stated - it is damaging to our economy.

Yes I do feel it's the employers at fault as legally it is, so no they are not culpable they are however you dress it up exploited.

Whatever Jenny said it does not make that less of a fact.

[JoshBB]

For gods sake. Cutting jobseekers allowance is ridiculous, how the hell are people supposed to get by without a job now? :/

edit: I hope they're serious about cracking down on tax avoidance by big companies too. Would save a lot of cuts from having to go ahead.

[Kazanne]

For gods sake. Cutting jobseekers allowance is ridiculous, how the hell are people supposed to get by without a job now? :/

There are jobs Josh,people cant expect something for nothing all the time,there are agencies that will find you a job.

[JoshBB]

There are jobs Josh,people cant expect something for nothing all the time,there are agencies that will find you a job.

Yes but there is not a wide range of non-zero hours jobs available for people to just go and do. If there was, the move would be a little more understandable.

[joeysteele]

:laugh: I am no more patronising you Kiz than you do me when you tell me to get 'perspective' (well, perhaps just a smudging so - but teasingly so)

The point is our different perspectives;

to you - it is ALL the fault of the unscrupulous employers.

To me the immigrants ACCEPTING the illegal jobs-On-The-Side are just as culpable - more so, because they have come to a country which has welcomed them in but then blatantly break laws which they know to be wrong in any language.

The end result is that - as Jenny stated - it is damaging to our economy.

Absolutely beyond belief and you really do lose the argument here with respect Kirk.

To blame someone for taking a job and thereby the lowly worker over or as much as the Employer who knows full well the employment law is disgrace from you in my view,a n employer who knows what he/she should be paying too.

I know people who had full time work, whose employer has cut their hours down from over 30 a week to a 16 hour contract,that saves the employer money in guaranteed wages.
The workers accepted that so they still had a job,their other choice would have been to have no job.

No, and it will be no surprise fro me that on this I say you are wrong and Kizzy is right.
Then again from you, that will possibly be us just being near irrelevant left wing militants,who are to blame for everything.

[JoshBB]

Absolutely beyond belief and you really do lose the argument her with respect Kirk.

To blame someone for taking a job and thereby the lowly worker over or as much as the Employer who knows full well the employment law is disgrace from you in my view,a n employer who knows what he/she should be paying too.

I know people who had full time work, whose employer has cut their hours down from over 30 a week to a 16 hour contract,that saves the employer money in guaranteed wages.
The workers accepted that so they still had a job,their other choice would have been to have no job.

No, and it will be no surprise fro me that on this I say you are wrong and Kizzy is right.
Then again from you, that will possibly be us just being near irrelevant left wing militants,who are to blame for everything.

Yes, it's absolutely disgusting to suggest these people are equally to blame. Most of the illegal immigrants you speak of Kirk are fleeing war or persecution, they are beyond desperation and want to start a new life for themselves. They decided not to take benefits but to actually get a job - though you people on the right would demonize them for doing either.

It's such a shame to see xenophobia in modern society on the rise again.

[Cherie]

Yes, it's absolutely disgusting to suggest these people are equally to blame. Most of the illegal immigrants you speak of Kirk are fleeing war or persecution, they are beyond desperation and want to start a new life for themselves. They decided not to take benefits but to actually get a job - though you people on the right would demonize them for doing either.

It's such a shame to see xenophobia in modern society on the rise again.

It's tough being an immigrant isn't it :laugh:

[Cherie]

Yes but there is not a wide range of non-zero hours jobs available for people to just go and do. If there was, the move would be a little more understandable.


I think what is being proposed will help young people to develop a work ethic, everyone has to start somewhere, we can't all expect to walk into full time employment with no skills and no experience, if the government back up this initiative by increasing the number of apprenticeships, and work opportunities to develop skills, then it is all good in my eyes, no able bodied 18 year old should be sat on their arse at home getting benefits. :fist:

[bots]

Yes, it's absolutely disgusting to suggest these people are equally to blame. Most of the illegal immigrants you speak of Kirk are fleeing war or persecution, they are beyond desperation and want to start a new life for themselves. They decided not to take benefits but to actually get a job - though you people on the right would demonize them for doing either.

It's such a shame to see xenophobia in modern society on the rise again.


Not wishing to be controversial in anyway ... but :hehe:

The area I highlighted in bold is the most telling and relevant section to me.

If I am correct, you are arguing for better conditions for those who have illegally entered our country. The key word here is illegal. They simply shouldn't be here.

Now, if you remove a source of illegal immigrants, employers dont have the same capacity to take advantage of people and pay the illegal wages. Do you see where I am coming from? If there were no illegal people seeking employment, employers would have to pay the correct wages.

[Kizzy]

I think what is being proposed will help young people to develop a work ethic, everyone has to start somewhere, we can't all expect to walk into full time employment with no skills and no experience, if the government back up this initiative by increasing the number of apprenticeships, and work opportunities to develop skills, then it is all good in my eyes, no able bodied 18 year old should be sat on their arse at home getting benefits. :fist:

How is a zero hr contract going to instill a work ethic if the work is part time and or sporadic?
It instills the worst message for me that you are not a valued member of an organisation, you are temporary and dispensable and that you have no pride or loyalty for or to the company.
Apprenticeships in many areas are a joke and used as cheap disposable labour in many areas, young people are undervalued and exploited by these practices.
If there's a full time position in a sandwich shop give them a job, don't call it apprentice sandwich technician to get away with paying £2 a hour :/

I agree that any job is better than benefits but as the cost of living is so high a fair days work deserves a fair days pay.

[Cherie]

How is a zero hr contract going to instill a work ethic if the work is part time and or sporadic?
It instills the worst message for me that you are not a valued member of an organisation, you are temporary and dispensable and that you have no pride or loyalty for or to the company.
Apprenticeships in many areas are a joke and used as cheap disposable labour in many areas, young people are undervalued and exploited by these practices.
If there's a full time position in a sandwich shop give them a job, don't call it apprentice sandwich technician to get away with paying £2 a hour :/

I agree that any job is better than benefits but as the cost of living is so high a fair days work deserves a fair days pay.


So you would rather 18 year olds were sat at home rather than gaining some experience though work, how is that going to help get them a job?, most of the people who are now in full time contracted employment at my school started off as volunteers or as bank staff, they proved their worth, that they can be punctual, can be a team players, etc etc, and it also means they have their foot in the door when contracted jobs come up, they can also avail of the training opportunities for free thereby increasing their employability we all have to start somewhere Kizzy, summer jobs, part time hours whatever it is, sometimes gaining employment is down to being in the right place at the right time, sitting at home that is never going to happen, so to my mind you could earn your 70.00 quid at home which will leave your CV blank or you can earn your 70.00 quid in a sandwich job which will give you skills you can take forward into another job.

[arista]

You Are Most Wise Cherie

[Kizzy]

As I said 0hr contracts aren't only an option for 18yr olds are they?
Any part time employee would show the same commitment hand have the same opportunities with regard to advancement or training, you don't have to be on a 0hr contract to show willing.

I wasn't suggesting sitting at home, in no part of my post did I infer that would be an alternative, I proposed that as adults they are paid a wage that allows them to know that work pays. The answer is to ensure they have the chance to earn enough to live at least, by removing benefits for this age group they literally have no choice but to be exploited as they enter the workforce.

You have to ask yourself too if there is a constant stream of young adults who have no choice but to work in these low skilled areas on these contracts or 'apprenticeships' how will this impact on those who are older and low skilled, with families to support..
Who will be the most attractive option to businesses looking to save money?

[Cherie]

As I said 0hr contracts aren't only an option for 18yr olds are they?
Any part time employee would show the same commitment hand have the same opportunities with regard to advancement or training, you don't have to be on a 0hr contract to show willing.

I wasn't suggesting sitting at home, in no part of my post did I infer that would be an alternative, I proposed that as adults they are paid a wage that allows them to know that work pays. The answer is to ensure they have the chance to earn enough to live at least, by removing benefits for this age group they literally have no choice but to be exploited as they enter the workforce.

You have to ask yourself too if there is a constant stream of young adults who have no choice but to work in these low skilled areas on these contracts or 'apprenticeships' how will this impact on those who are older and low skilled, with families to support..
Who will be the most attractive option to businesses looking to save money?


That is not the case now though Kizzy, in fact Apprenticeships are very difficult to come by, so if firms really wanted to tap into cheap labour, wouldn't everyone who wanted one be able to get an apprenticeship, taking on anyone who is unskilled will require effort and training on behalf of the employer, its not like people can just walk into any job and just be left to their own devices, they will require some level of supervision and training.

[Kizzy]

[/B]

That is not the case now though Kizzy, in fact Apprenticeships are very difficult to come by, so if firms really wanted to tap into cheap labour, wouldn't everyone who wanted one be able to get an apprenticeship, taking on anyone who is unskilled will require effort and training on behalf of the employer, its not like people can just walk into any job and just be left to their own devices, they will require some level of supervision and training.

I'm not talking about real apprenticeships to be an electrician or plumber but the silly invented ones from the fast food, hospitality and care sector.
All jobs require a certain amount of training naturally no matter how low skilled of course, my point was employers will see the younger employees as a more attractive prospect due to them being cheaper to employ and train on these schemes,yet they will be doing the same work as others no doubt for half the money.

[joeysteele]

I'm not talking about real apprenticeships to be an electrician or plumber but the silly invented ones from the fast food, hospitality and care sector.
All jobs require a certain amount of training naturally no matter how low skilled of course, my point was employers will see the younger employees as a more attractive prospect due to them being cheaper to employ and train on these schemes,yet they will be doing the same work as others no doubt for half the money.

Spot on, no argument from me as to all that.

[the truth]

I'm not talking about real apprenticeships to be an electrician or plumber but the silly invented ones from the fast food, hospitality and care sector.
All jobs require a certain amount of training naturally no matter how low skilled of course, my point was employers will see the younger employees as a more attractive prospect due to them being cheaper to employ and train on these schemes,yet they will be doing the same work as others no doubt for half the money.

more cynical anti economics....all paymasters are vile exploitative people? lol...wrong. theyre the backbone of society and create ALL the wealth that pays for EVERYTHING IN SOCIETY....they also take all the risk and pressures....if anything goes wrong the buck stops with the employers...everyone risk just talks, employers entrepreneurs walk the walk

have you actually spoken to employers or are you another socialist who just assumes what employers will do? most employers want trustworthy relaible staff....older staff tend to be more stable and less likely to job hop....retraing staff endlessly is a costly exhaustingexpensive process. many would rather pay the extra few pounds anhour for the certainty and peace of mind

as for your absurd argument lets not put young healthy people into work in case they take jobs off other older people? what kind of logic is that? utter nonsense. there are places for reliable solid workers in all sectors. once a person is at work , their reliability honesty experience etc will make them more invaluable to employers and they will get more and more regular work and their wages will rise in time...other opportunities will also open up and in some cases these kids will decide to set up their own businesses too

this is the politics of optimism. this is what we need. not the politics of envy trying to squeeze every last penny from employers and risk takers....

the working tax credits are also a massive key as it the return to work schemes where job centres subsidise employers to train people for a few months....but working tax is the bridge off benefits to work and this scheme needs to be clearer and simpler to understand and better promoted......again in some cases you can get housing benefits and working tax and work. not everyone knows and understand that, theyre too scared to get off unemployment / incapacity. this is where dave cameron can really improve society. lucky for him he has a majority and autonomy free for europe to sort this mess out simply because he has hiw own currency

[Kizzy]

more cynical anti economics....all paymasters are vile exploitative people? lol...wrong. theyre the backbone of society and create ALL the wealth that pays for EVERYTHING IN SOCIETY....they also take all the risk and pressures....if anything goes wrong the buck stops with the employers...everyone risk just talks, employers entrepreneurs walk the walk

have you actually spoken to employers or are you another socialist who just assumes what employers will do? most employers want trustworthy relaible staff....older staff tend to be more stable and less likely to job hop....retraing staff endlessly is a costly exhaustingexpensive process. many would rather pay the extra few pounds anhour for the certainty and peace of mind

as for your absurd argument lets not put young healthy people into work in case they take jobs off other older people? what kind of logic is that? utter nonsense. there are places for reliable solid workers in all sectors. once a person is at work , their reliability honesty experience etc will make them more invaluable to employers and they will get more and more regular work and their wages will rise in time...other opportunities will also open up and in some cases these kids will decide to set up their own businesses too

this is the politics of optimism. this is what we need. not the politics of envy trying to squeeze every last penny from employers and risk takers....

the working tax credits are also a massive key as it the return to work schemes where job centres subsidise employers to train people for a few months....but working tax is the bridge off benefits to work and this scheme needs to be clearer and simpler to understand and better promoted......again in some cases you can get housing benefits and working tax and work. not everyone knows and understand that, theyre too scared to get off unemployment / incapacity. this is where dave cameron can really improve society. lucky for him he has a majority and autonomy free for europe to sort this mess out simply because he has hiw own currency

By paymasters I presume you mean employers, paymasters seems such a Dickensian term...
You're putting words in my mouth as I didn't suggest all employers adopt these practices but it is growing.
They do pay a lot of tax yes, if they paid more out to employees would they not have as much to be taxed...and would the employee not have a decent wage to pay tax on?

I'm not sure what you're accusing me of, I'm not suggesting anyone squeeze anyone.

[the truth]

By paymasters I presume you mean employers, paymasters seems such a Dickensian term...
You're putting words in my mouth as I didn't suggest all employers adopt these practices but it is growing.
They do pay a lot of tax yes, if they paid more out to employees would they not have as much to be taxed...and would the employee not have a decent wage to pay tax on?

I'm not sure what you're accusing me of, I'm not suggesting anyone squeeze anyone.

youre whole rhetoric and whole narative is anti economics.....all new labour want to do is create welfare depenancy so they have millions of voters for the next generation....then overly on the working and middle classes to pay a disproportionate level of income to pay for it.....oh and raise the minimum wage over £8 thus losing millions of jobs and banning all zero hour contracts and seasonal contracts thus losing even more jobs. oh and keeping vat at 20% keeping us enslaved to the endless layers of red tape and extra burocracy of devolution and EU nonsense which needs more public servants to run , more waste more burocracy more debt..all of this red tape has also lead to the police being totally and utterly ineffective...most of the time they brush off serious crime, fraud , theft etc as a civil matter because they simply cant be bothered to tackle serious criminals and worse still they fear the endless red tape and paperowrk ...then theres also more government cover ups and nhs cover ups....ironically new labour dont even discuss trade union and workers rights , blair targetted that in the beginning....

clearly workers need rights and they do have some for unfair dismissal etc but theother new labour policies and are cheap gimmicks that look good in the headlines of a tabloid, but whenever they are studied at a deeper level they lead to ruin....that leads back to bankruptcy again, theirs is simply the road to hell. im amazed youre an orwellian yet you support the super state of new labour and the EU? which has bankrupted umpteen countries already stolen their sovereignty by stealth, illegally invaded nations ,and disempowred millions.

without wishing to engage in a you v me battle....i simply havent got a clue where youre coming from or what kind of country you want to see

[Kizzy]

youre whole rhetoric and whole narative is anti economics.....all new labour want to do is create welfare depenancy so they have millions of voters for the next generation....then overly on the working and middle classes to pay a disproportionate level of income to pay for it.....oh and raise the minimum wage over £8 thus losing millions of jobs and banning all zero hour contracts and seasonal contracts thus losing even more jobs. oh and keeping vat at 20% keeping us enslaved to the endless layers of red tape and extra burocracy of devolution and EU nonsense which needs more public servants to run , more waste more burocracy more debt..all of this red tape has also lead to the police being totally and utterly ineffective...most of the time they brush off serious crime, fraud , theft etc as a civil matter because they simply cant be bothered to tackle serious criminals and worse still they fear the endless red tape and paperowrk ...then theres also more government cover ups and nhs cover ups....ironically new labour dont even discuss trade union and workers rights , blair targetted that in the beginning....

clearly workers need rights and they do have some for unfair dismissal etc but theother new labour policies and are cheap gimmicks that look good in the headlines of a tabloid, but whenever they are studied at a deeper level they lead to ruin....that leads back to bankruptcy again, theirs is simply the road to hell. im amazed youre an orwellian yet you support the super state of new labour and the EU? which has bankrupted umpteen countries already stolen their sovereignty by stealth, illegally invaded nations ,and disempowred millions.

without wishing to engage in a you v me battle....i simply havent got a clue where youre coming from or what kind of country you want to see

Well you've totally lost me in your tangent, all I suggested was fair wages I wouldn't have thought that was too way out whoever's in government :/

[the truth]

Well you've totally lost me in your tangent, all I suggested was fair wages I wouldn't have thought that was too way out whoever's in government :/

ok do what new labour do, play dumb and go bankrupt:sleep:

[empire]

I would cut child benefit down to two children, these single mothers that have 8 to 11 children, are having children with differnet fathers, there they can save alot of money, to help people find work with fair pay,

[Denver]

I would cut child benefit down to two children, these single mothers that have 8 to 11 children, are having children with differnet fathers, there they can save alot of money, to help people find work with fair pay,

So what if they have triplets? :idc:

[Jamesy]

They do the benefits limited to two children thing in Spain. Works quite well there actually and I would welcome a system like that in the UK.

Would certainly cut down on the percentage of mothers on benefits that pop children out so they don't have to work and can live a free life on behalf of the taxpayer. The government need to target that area of benefits more tbh.

[Cherie]

I would cut child benefit down to two children, these single mothers that have 8 to 11 children, are having children with differnet fathers, there they can save alot of money, to help people find work with fair pay,

8 to 11 how very random, are they immaculate conceptions :fan:

[the truth]

They do the benefits limited to two children thing in Spain. Works quite well there actually and I would welcome a system like that in the UK.

Would certainly cut down on the percentage of mothers on benefits that pop children out so they don't have to work and can live a free life on behalf of the taxpayer. The government need to target that area of benefits more tbh.

I agree. Limit the benefit, also pay it in vouchers for childrens products only so no more parents can fritter the money away on their own selfish pursuits. I would strip anyone of benefit who was fit for work. I would also prevent anyone getting a council house who could not prove they were in work for thepast 3 years. To those who argue its mean or cruel its not. ALlowing kids to be part of a breed for benefits culture is cruel. \they learn every wrong lesson in life. in most cases they see worklessness their whole lives and lack ambition. in many cases they have poor diets , poor education, poor lifestyles poor role models lose their passion for life and learning

these people need some tough love. cue the new labour fans now accusing us all of gettingall this from the daily mail , rather than every broken estate in the UK.

[Cherie]

Great, if there were full time jobs available for everyone who wants one. There aren't.

[edit: this is TS btw, forgot I was on Mrs TS's laptop :hehe: ]

An 18 year old doesn't necessarily need a full time job from the get go as most will be living at home, whats wrong with a part time job to get on the ladder?

[Kizzy]

Great, if there were full time jobs available for everyone who wants one. There aren't.

[edit: this is TS btw, forgot I was on Mrs TS's laptop :hehe: ]

Why is the onus on full time positions?

[user104658]

An 18 year old doesn't necessarily need a full time job from the get go as most will be living at home, whats wrong with a part time job to get on the ladder?

That was in response to The Truth saying; "I would strip anyone of benefit who was fit for work."

That's fine - if there are enough jobs available for everyone who is fit for work (which there are not).

Kizzy - focus was on full time positions being available for anyone who wants one again, in response to The Truth's statement above, because he's talking about wanting to strip benefits from anyone who is fit for work. I was pointing out that to hold that stance, it would need to be the case that there are jobs available for ALL of those people to support themselves. An adult cannot support themselves without benefits in a part time position... therefore, anything but full-time positions are a smoke screen. It's all very well for someone to say that there are "plenty of jobs available", but 16 hours of part time work is not going to cut it.

[Kizzy]

That was in response to The Truth saying; "I would strip anyone of benefit who was fit for work."

That's fine - if there are enough jobs available for everyone who is fit for work (which there are not).

Kizzy - focus was on full time positions being available for anyone who wants one again, in response to The Truth's statement above, because he's talking about wanting to strip benefits from anyone who is fit for work. I was pointing out that to hold that stance, it would need to be the case that there are jobs available for ALL of those people to support themselves. An adult cannot support themselves without benefits in a part time position... therefore, anything but full-time positions are a smoke screen. It's all very well for someone to say that there are "plenty of jobs available", but 16 hours of part time work is not going to cut it.

Ah right get you now sorry :)

[Cherie]

That was in response to The Truth saying; "I would strip anyone of benefit who was fit for work."

That's fine - if there are enough jobs available for everyone who is fit for work (which there are not).

Kizzy - focus was on full time positions being available for anyone who wants one again, in response to The Truth's statement above, because he's talking about wanting to strip benefits from anyone who is fit for work. I was pointing out that to hold that stance, it would need to be the case that there are jobs available for ALL of those people to support themselves. An adult cannot support themselves without benefits in a part time position... therefore, anything but full-time positions are a smoke screen. It's all very well for someone to say that there are "plenty of jobs available", but 16 hours of part time work is not going to cut it.



Oh right this thread is about 18 to 21 year olds, it has been side tracked a bit

[the truth]

The majority are simply sick of people breeding for benefits and the political parties knows this. If Cameron can target the correct people and leave the really sick and disabled alone or better off then he may yet become a popular PM. The fact he doesn't want a 3rd term may actually strengthen him as the masses may not get so sick of him as others and may make him more effective

[empire]

the tory party only go for the vulnerable, but they never go for the likes of welfare scroungers, who milk the system, when people are out of work, trying to find a new job,or people who worked nearly all their lives and had to take early retirement, and paid their taxes and other things, but are told they are fit for work, its funny that the likes of mick philpott, and karen matthews, milked the system with so many children from differnet partners, they never got there money stopped, im sure the mp for welfare would of turned a blind eye to the both of them, I was on a apperenticeship for 2 years, and the pay was a joke, like forty pounds a week, and these cockroaches raked in more in a week than I did in five months, it makes me want to kick the tv,