would you rather look like a murderer or be the spawn of Satan?

[Griffin5779]

I'm just asking ... to me..one seems a bit more offensive

[Niamh.]

I would rather someone call me the Spawn of Satan lol It's less cutting than saying someone looks like a violent criminal. Spawn of Satan sounds like a joke insult since there's no such thing as Satan or presumably his spawn

[Griffin5779]

I would rather someone call me the Spawn of Satan lol It's less cutting than saying someone looks like a violent criminal. Spawn of Satan sounds like a joke insult since there's no such thing as Satan or presumably his spawn

well there a quiet a few Christians who would disagree with your claiming there is no Satan and wouldn't think it much of a joke..

personally i think "look like"... is far less of an incitement then "are" ...

[Vicky.]

Wouldn't be to fussed with either really. But I don't take namecalling and such seriously. When people start rubbish like that I literally laugh in their faces, which is the most effective way of dealing with it because it riles them more :D

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm just asking ... to me..one seems a bit more offensive

bearing in mind murderers can be children, woman, men, oaps, welsh people etc then its hardly a massive insult

[aman201]

Some murderers are cute.

Certainly wouldn't mind looking like Ted Bundy for example.

[Niamh.]

well there a quiet a few Christians who would disagree with your claiming there is no Satan and wouldn't think it much of a joke..

personally i think "look like"... is far less of an incitement then "are" ...

You look like violent criminal is pretty bad still.......

I'm sure there are some Christians who believe in Satan but the question you asked was "would you rather look like a murderer or be the spawn of Satan?" And I personally don't believe in Satan so that was my answer.....

[Vicky.]

Also depends which murderer. Wouldn't mind looking like one of these

http://whatculture.com/offbeat/10-beautiful-but-shockingly-brutal-female-killers.php/2

[Niamh.]

Also depends which murderer. Wouldn't mind looking like one of these

http://whatculture.com/offbeat/10-beautiful-but-shockingly-brutal-female-killers.php/2

lol She clearly meant he looked deranged though :laugh:

[joeysteele]

To a very religious person with a strong belief being identified with Satan would be the worst possible insult they could get.

My Grandmother was when alive and most of my family are still devout Roman Catholics, if anyone said that to them they would be crushed absolutely.

Whether people are religious or not, or whether people have a faith or not,they should be careful the terms they use around people they don't know.
When Aisleyne blurted that out,they were all there.

I found it equally as inappropriate as Helen's to Brian, a complete lack of consideration for all others present, known to the person or not known to them.
Another difference was Helen's indefensible comment to Brian was made in anger, Aisleyne's was made while very calm.

Helen is an awful person but there are for me now 3 of them awful in there, Helen, Aisleyne and Nikki.
Shocking examples from all those 3 and Brian too, to the other housemates,whose series this really is and who it should be about.
Not these supposed grown adults, who have had their time on BB, settling scores with each other.

[Vicky.]

lol She clearly meant he looked deranged though :laugh:

Yes, was a strange turn of phrase to use...would have been much easier (and less fuss) to just say deranged rather than being utterly awful about it. Then again, apparently psycho and such are terrible insults, so deranged would probably be the same :laugh:

[Niamh.]

Yes, was a strange turn of phrase to use...would have been much easier (and less fuss) to just say deranged rather than being utterly awful about it. Then again, apparently psycho and such are terrible insults, so deranged would probably be the same :laugh:

mmm I think Helen is an expert at really cutting insults. Like I think if we're being totally honest here saying to a man during an argument that he looks like a rapist is as bad as you can get because he's going to start getting paranoid that maybe other people will start thinking that too etc etc. Saying someone is the Spawn of Satan is like a cartoon insult, even if you are religious you're not going to get paranoid that people are genuinely going to think you are actually Satans offspring

[Vicky.]

Spawn of Satan is not even anywhere near the same level as what Helen said. I honestly think her turn of phrase was indefensible.

[Griffin5779]

You look like violent criminal is pretty bad still.......

I'm sure there are some Christians who believe in Satan but the question you asked was "would you rather look like a murderer or be the spawn of Satan?" And I personally don't believe in Satan so that was my answer.....

well if you want to argue on that level...the hypothetical question i asked asked assumes the existence of Satan since i used the phrase "be the spawn of Satan"

So let me rephrase it for you...Assuming that there is a Satan...would you rather look like a murderer or be the spawn of Satan?

[Vicky.]

If we are taking spawn of Satan on a literal level, then I suppose its the ultimate evil, which would be worse than a murderer :shrug:

But I don't think anyone is hysterical enough to think it was meant literally. And Satan doesnt exist either so...

[RichardG]

I'd rather be transformed into Satan himself than Helen :whistle:

[Niamh.]

well if you want to argue on that level...the hypothetical question i asked asked assumes the existence of Satan since i used the phrase "be the spawn of Satan"

So let me rephrase it for you...Assuming that there is a Satan...would you rather look like a murderer or be the spawn of Satan?

What do you mean argue on that level? You asked which I would find more offensive and I told you :shrug:

I'm not going to assume there is a Satan because not even a little part of me believes there is so this hypothetical question is ridiculous

[joeysteele]

well if you want to argue on that level...the hypothetical question i asked asked assumes the existence of Satan since i used the phrase "be the spawn of Satan"

So let me rephrase it for you...Assuming that there is a Satan...would you rather look like a murderer or be the spawn of Satan?

I agree, I have many doubts as to religion myself now but keep an open mind, I would hate to be thought of as a spawn of a devil.

Being told, I look like I could murder someone,(rather than being told, I would murder someone), as opposed to being told I 'am' the spawn of an evil force.
Then in that context for me, the latter is worse than the former.

[Griffin5779]

mmm I think Helen is an expert at really cutting insults. Like I think if we're being totally honest here saying to a man during an argument that he looks like a rapist is as bad as you can get because he's going to start getting paranoid that maybe other people will start thinking that too etc etc. Saying someone is the Spawn of Satan is like a cartoon insult, even if you are religious you're not going to get paranoid that people are genuinely going to think you are actually Satans offspring

could almost see your point..but then marc was warned for using the psycho...that have the same "cartoon insult" back ground. i'm feel quiet certain that "psycho" is used 100 times in sentences like "my girlfriend is a psycho" for every one time it used by a person intent on branding someone psychopath.

[Niamh.]

could almost see your point..but then marc was warned for using the psycho...that have the same "cartoon insult" back ground. i'm feel quiet certain that "psycho" is used 100 times in sentences like "my girlfriend is a psycho" for every one time it used by a person intent on branding someone psychopath.

Well that's a whole other argument though and if his comment was said during a different argument he probably wouldn't have gotten a warning, I think he probably only got one because of the way the argument went and because of Brian leaving because of it.

[Griffin5779]

What do you mean argue on that level? You asked which I would find more offensive and I told you :shrug:

I'm not going to assume there is a Satan because not even a little part of me believes there is so this hypothetical question is ridiculous

but you altered the intent of the question to answer it...the way you answered would be the same as some saying...

well i know i'm not a murderer so i'd rather someone say i look like a murder

[armand.kay]

Spawn of satan sounds like a cool metal band or something and I'm here for my dark era, so yeah x https://az545065.vo.msecnd.net/skype-faq-media/faq_content/skype/screenshots/fa12330/emoticons/emo_80_anim_gif.gif

[Griffin5779]

Well that's a whole other argument though and if his comment was said during a different argument he probably wouldn't have gotten a warning, I think he probably only got one because of the way the argument went and because of Brian leaving because of it.


agree with that as well as the fact brian complained

[Niamh.]

but you altered the intent of the question to answer it...the way you answered would be the same as some saying...

well i know i'm not a murderer so i'd rather someone say i look like a murder

How did I alter the intent of the question? That example you gave is nothing like what I did, I answered the question 100% honestly. Saying I know I'm not a rapist or murderer or whatever could be applied to any insult anyone threw out but there is such a thing as a murderer and rapist etc. What I said was I don't believe there is such a thing as Satan not I know I'm not the Spawn of Satan

[Griffin5779]

Spawn of satan sounds like a cool metal band or something and I'm here for my dark era, so yeah x https://az545065.vo.msecnd.net/skype-faq-media/faq_content/skype/screenshots/fa12330/emoticons/emo_80_anim_gif.gif

look like a murderer could be Cristian rapper name

[Kazanne]

I just think it's all so petty and childish whoever says it,I've done it myself,still petty and childish, like being back at school,that said Helen said hers in sheer anger and probably didn't even think what she was saying and regretted it after ,Ashleines was worse for me as it was premeditated .

[Griffin5779]

How did I alter the intent of the question? That example you gave is nothing like what I did, I answered the question 100% honestly. Saying I know I'm not a rapist or murderer or whatever could be applied to any insult anyone threw out but there is such a thing as a murderer and rapist etc. What I said was I don't believe there is such a thing as Satan not I know I'm not the Spawn of Satan


i'm very confused..why did you say

"sounds like a joke insult since there's no such thing as Satan or presumably his spawn"

I mean..how do you know you aren't the spawn of Satan..

[Niamh.]

i'm very confused..why did you say

"sounds like a joke insult since there's no such thing as Satan or presumably his spawn"

I mean..how do you know you aren't the spawn of Satan..

Because I don't believe there is such a thing as Satan lol Also, I know who my parents are and I'm pretty sure my dad doesn't have hooves although maybe I'll double check just to be sure :think:

[crazycolaist]

Comparing sprawn of satan & a murderer is fiction & fact.

It's like calling someone a fairy or a cat. One is real the other is not.

So I cant say if id rather be called one or the other because one is a joke & the other is a serious allegation that was false.

F- Helen

[joeysteele]

]Comparing sprawn of satan & a murderer is fiction & fact.
[/B]
It's like calling someone a fairy or a cat. One is real the other is not.

So I cant say if id rather be called one or the other because one is a joke & the other is a serious allegation that was false.

F- Helen

With respect not to people who have a strong faith it isn't fiction and fact.

That is disrespectful actually to people with genuinely held strong faith and beliefs.
None of which is seen as fiction by them.

Slightly even worse, as Kazanne has said, when one is said in full anger and the other said with pre meditation while totally calm.

[Niamh.]

With respect not to people who have a strong faith it isn't fiction and fact.

That is disrespectful actually to people with genuinely held strong faith and beliefs.
None of which is seen as fiction by them.

Slightly even worse, as Kazanne has said, when one is said in full anger and the other said with pre meditation while totally calm.

Why is it disrespectful to say that you think Satan is fiction if you genuinely think that? There's actually alot of religious people who don't believe in Satan either

[bots]

people get much to hung up on individual words in my opinion. Its not the words that count, its the intent behind them. Helen wanted to convey that Brian looked a bit scary, Ais wanted to degrade Helen. Which is worst, to degrade clearly.

[Tarryn]

If there was a spawn of satan then he/she would be a murderer. They would be pure evil.
They are both pretty bad & let's face it BB is now a slanging match rather than a social experiment or game show.
I have nieces & nephews under the age of 10 who are more mature than some of those HM's.

[Kazanne]

Why is it disrespectful to say that you think Satan is fiction if you genuinely think that? There's actually alot of religious people who don't believe in Satan either

I cant speak for other people ,but I believe in God and Satan who actually is a fallen angel,

[Niamh.]

I cant speak for other people ,but I believe in God and Satan who actually is a fallen angel,

So? I said not all religious people believe in Satan :shrug:

[joeysteele]

Why is it disrespectful to say that you think Satan is fiction if you genuinely think that? There's actually alot of religious people who don't believe in Satan either

I think it is disrespectful because if people have that strong belief then it is not fiction to them and if someone does have a strong faith,unless you ask them, you will not know for sure if they do not believe in a devil, Satan or whatever..

Fine to say such things to someone you know not to have such faith but to say it in the presence of others, not knowing what they all believe or what faith they have or even if they have no faith at all.
Is disrespectful.

Anyway, indicating someone is a spawn of Satan or a Devil, is indicating they are pure evil,now evil is a word I would use to describe actions of ISIS or really cruel Dictators.
As bad as any of the people in that house is,none of them justify,in a calm pre meditated way to be described as 'evil', whatever the form used as to it.
Just as equally, the terms used in strong anger by Helen towards Brian were also disrespectful inmy view.

Religion is a touchy subject,one best avoided, however to those with strong religious beliefs such terms are not fiction to them.

You have no belief so to you it is fiction,I respect that.
I have a kind of belief still,so I would however choose to be careful myself how I termed anything of a religious element both with people I know for sure who have a strong faith and also around people I know nothing about who are in earshot.
I see that myself as respecting others no matter how different in any way they may be to me.

[Tarryn]

I'm religious & was sent to a bible study youth camp every summer (I'm sure you all envy me for that :laugh:).
I am not offended by any religious debate but religion is very personal to each person so maybe it's best left out of this debate.

[Niamh.]

I think it is disrespectful because if people have that strong belief then it is not fiction to them and if someone does have a strong faith,unless you ask them, you will not know for sure if they do not believe in a devil, Satan or whatever..

Fine to say such things to someone you know not to have such faith but to say it in the presence of others, not knowing what they all believe or what faith they have or even if they have no faith at all.
Is disrespectful.

Anyway, indicating someone is a spawn of Satan or a Devil, is indicating they are pure evil,now evil is a word I would use to describe actions of ISIS or really cruel Dictators.
As bad as any of the people in that house is,none of them justify,in a calm pre meditated way to be described as 'evil', whatever the form used as to it.
Just as equally, the terms used in strong anger by Helen towards Brian were also disrespectful inmy view.

Religion is a touchy subject,one best avoided, however to those with strong religious beliefs such terms are not fiction to them.

You have no belief so to you it is fiction,I respect that.
I have a kind of belief still,so I would however choose to be careful myself how I termed anything of a religious element both with people I know for sure who have a strong faith and also around people I know nothing about who are in earshot.
I see that myself as respecting others no matter how different in any way they may be to me.

No offence to you Joey but I'm not going to pretend that I think some Demon mentioned in a book written thousands of years ago is real just because other people do believe it.

[Liam-]

Didn't Nikki say Helen was 'born evil'? to me personally, that is on the same offense level as saying someone looks like a murderer.. saying someone looks like a murderer, alright, it's not very nice and everything, but saying someone was 'born evil' is a really strong thing to say to someone imo.

[LukeB]

Didn't Nikki say Helen was 'born evil'? to me personally, that is on the same offense level as saying someone looks like a murderer.. saying someone looks like a murderer, alright, it's not very nice and everything, but saying someone was 'born evil' is a really strong thing to say to someone imo.

It's no where near as bad as what Helen said imo, saying you look like muderer is hell of a lot worse

[bots]

Helens comment to Brian was reflecting her view that he looked scary, Ais and Nikki's comments were premeditated acts of hate. No contest

[Robertocarlo]

well there a quiet a few Christians who would disagree with your claiming there is no Satan and wouldn't think it much of a joke..

personally i think "look like"... is far less of an incitement then "are" ...

Actually to be a proper Christian you actually have to believe in the existence of Satan and Jesus Christ. If you don't believe in Satan, according to Christian doctrine, then the whole concept of Heaven and Hell cannot stand. Put simply. If you're good you go to Heaven if you're bad off to Hell with you. That's what's been preached for centuries.

[joeysteele]

No offence to you Joey but I'm not going to pretend that I think some Demon mentioned in a book written thousands of years ago is real just because other people do believe it.

Not offended at all I was just pointing out that the implication of a Satan is that someone is pure evil,I consider it disrespectful to term anyone in that way.
I have no belief in a Devil now myself.

I said a long while ago on here I think, I lost that view for me, when I thought about it and could not get a rational conclusion.
As to why a Devil/Satan who was fighting endlessly against a God,making people do as much wrong as they could,would then when they die, punish them in hell for doing his bidding.
That made no sense to me personally at all,surely in that scenario someone doing great wrong would be welcomed and protected by a Devil/Satan.

However I would still respect the belief and thoughts others had on the matter and would not dismiss their position as to it.
No offence at all,I love debating with those agreeing with me and with those not.
You make strong and valid points all the time.

[Robertocarlo]

Didn't Nikki say Helen was 'born evil'? to me personally, that is on the same offense level as saying someone looks like a murderer.. saying someone looks like a murderer, alright, it's not very nice and everything, but saying someone was 'born evil' is a really strong thing to say to someone imo.

We are actually born without sin and therefore cannot be born evil. Nikki just shows her nastiness and ignorance there.

[Liam-]

It's no where near as bad as what Helen said imo, saying you look like muderer is hell of a lot worse

There's a progamme on tv called 'Born evil' and it features the likes of murderers, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles and so on, it doesn't feature gob****es from reality tv shows.

I don't think the word 'evil' should even be used for the majority of people on reality shows anyway, it's so extreme and should only be used against people who truly deserve it.

So imo, saying someone was 'born evil' is equal to, if not worse, that saying someone looks like a murderer, I'm not excusing Helen's words in any way shape or form either before people try and jump on me again like they did last night, but I'm seeing things from both sides and Nikki's words had just as much meaning and depth as Helen's.

[Kazanne]

So? I said not all religious people believe in Satan :shrug:

Er,I know you did,was going to explain,but don't think I'll bother.

[Niamh.]

Not offended at all I was just pointing out that the implication of a Satan is that someone is pure evil,I consider it disrespectful to term anyone in that way.
I have no belief in a Devil now myself.

I said a long while ago on here I think, I lost that view for me, when I thought about it and could not get a rational conclusion.
As to why a Devil/Satan who was fighting endlessly against a God,making people do as much wrong as they could,would then when they die, punish them in hell for doing his bidding.
That made no sense to me personally at all,surely in that scenario someone doing great wrong would be welcomed and protected by a Devil/Satan.

However I would still respect the belief and thoughts others had on the matter and would not dismiss their position as to it.
No offence at all,I love debating with those agreeing with me and with those not.
You make strong and valid points all the time.

:love:

We are actually born without sin and therefore cannot be born evil. Nikki just shows her nastiness and ignorance there.

Aren't people supposed to be born with original sin according to the Bible?

[Robertocarlo]

Not offended at all I was just pointing out that the implication of a Satan is that someone is pure evil,I consider it disrespectful to term anyone in that way.
I have no belief in a Devil now myself.

I said a long while ago on here I think, I lost that view for me, when I thought about it and could not get a rational conclusion.
As to why a Devil/Satan who was fighting endlessly against a God,making people do as much wrong as they could,would then when they die, punish them in hell for doing his bidding.
That made no sense to me personally at all,surely in that scenario someone doing great wrong would be welcomed and protected by a Devil/Satan.

However I would still respect the belief and thoughts others had on the matter and would not dismiss their position as to it.
No offence at all,I love debating with those agreeing with me and with those not.
You make strong and valid points all the time.

I am a Pagan myself and we certainly don't believe in the Devil. Even though ignorant people, usually Christians, say we are Devil worshippers? It's Christians who believe in the existence of the Devil and in Heaven and Hell. It's a given, a must, for Christians. Even Christ was tempted by the devil whilst in the desert. If you don't believe in a Devil then you can hardly believe that Christ was tempted by Him?

[LukeB]

There's a progamme on tv called 'Born evil' and it features the likes of murderers, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles and so on, it doesn't feature gob****es from reality tv shows.

I don't think the word 'evil' should even be used for the majority of people on reality shows anyway, it's so extreme and should only be used against people who truly deserve it.

So imo, saying someone was 'born evil' is equal to, if not worse, that saying someone looks like a murderer, I'm not excusing Helen's words in any way shape or form either before people try and jump on me again like they did last night, but I'm seeing things from both sides and Nikki's words had just as much meaning and depth as Helen's.

Nikki didn't mean it in that context tho and it's based on how she acts but Helen is basing her commets on appearance like she always does. Nikki's comments are not that vile compared to Helen's

[Robertocarlo]

:love:



Aren't people supposed to be born with original sin according to the Bible?

Perhaps, but new born babies can hardly be evil can they? A sin can be forgiven, a must if you're a true Christian. The original sin refers to Adam and Eve and Applegate.

[Niamh.]

Perhaps, but new born babies can hardly be evil can they. A sin can be forgiven, a must if you're a true Christian. The original sin refers to Adam and Eve and Applegate.

Applegate :laugh:

[joeysteele]

I am a Pagan myself and we certainly don't believe in the Devil. Even though ignorant people, usually Christians, say we are Devil worshippers? It's Christians who believe in the existence of the Devil and in Heaven and Hell. It's a given, a must, for Christians. Even Christ was tempted by the devil whilst in the desert. If you don't believe in a Devil then you can hardly believe that Christ was tempted by Him?

I lost most of my faith a few years ago,I still call myself a Christian because I love the values of Christianity as set out in the gospels as to actions towards others.

I have a lot of doubts and sadly the hypocrisy of the Churches and Priests only disillusion me more.

That is me however,I need to keep searching maybe again and life shows me that no doors should ever be closed.
I agree with all you say above and as I said, I have strong doubts a to the Roman Catholic doctrine I was born into and brought up in.

To Niamh,goodness me who could have predicted a debate on Christianity and faith evolving from Helen and Aisleyne on BB.
It shows anything can be possible.:joker:

[Niamh.]

I lost most of my faith a few years ago,I still call myself a Christian because I love the values of Christianity as set out in the gospels as to actions towards others.

I have a lot of doubts and sadly the hypocrisy of the Churches and Priests only disillusion me more.

That is me however,I need to keep searching maybe again and life shows me that no doors should ever be closed.
I agree with all you say above and as I said, I have strong doubts a to the Roman Catholic doctrine I was born into and brought up in.

To Niamh,goodness me who could have predicted a debate on Christianity and faith evolving from Helen and Aisleyne on BB.
It shows anything can be possible.:joker:

lol Joey I know right?

[smudgie]

No contest.
spawn of Satan is a throwaway insult.
What Helen said to Brian was very personal and defamatory, especially when she had also insinuated he would attack her if the cameras weren't there.

[Kazanne]

No contest.
spawn of Satan is a throwaway insult.
What Helen said to Brian was very personal and defamatory, especially when she had also insinuated he would attack her if the cameras weren't there.

I don't agree smudgie,Ashleine was calling her that on BBBOTs,so not a throw away line in my book,it was premeditated to degrade,Helen was angry and hers was just that an angry outburst,we've all done that and she regretted it after,she was silly but not intentionally hurtful.

[smudgie]

I don't agree smudgie,Ashleine was calling her that on BBBOTs,so not a throw away line in my book,it was premeditated to degrade,Helen was angry and hers was just that an angry outburst,we've all done that and she regretted it after,she was silly but not intentionally hurtful.

We will just have to agree to disagree Kaz.
I don't thnk being called the spawn of Satan is anythng more than an insult:shrug:
If it was directed at somebody deeply religious then I may have felt differently.

[Kazanne]

We will just have to agree to disagree Kaz.
I don't thnk being called the spawn of Satan is anythng more than an insult:shrug:
If it was directed at somebody deeply religious then I may have felt differently.

:thumbs:

[Angelika]

I'm just asking ... to me..one seems a bit more offensive

Which one is most offensive to you bearing in mind one renders you an outcast member of our society, and gives you substantial time in prison as punishment and renders, in most cases, the rest of your life pure hell. The other option has no real life consequences except the original insult.

[Creggle]

Brian's face was impressive though, she'd not even said much at that point and he looked like he was fixated on doing something regrettable.

[joeysteele]

Brian's face was impressive though, she'd not even said much at that point and he looked like he was fixated on doing something regrettable.

Someone said this on here the other night and like them,I too thought even before Helen came out with her comments that, 'what would he love to do if there was only him and her there with no one watching'.
He was really smouldering and looked very intimidating.

[Robertocarlo]

I lost most of my faith a few years ago,I still call myself a Christian because I love the values of Christianity as set out in the gospels as to actions towards others.

I have a lot of doubts and sadly the hypocrisy of the Churches and Priests only disillusion me more.

That is me however,I need to keep searching maybe again and life shows me that no doors should ever be closed.
I agree with all you say above and as I said, I have strong doubts a to the Roman Catholic doctrine I was born into and brought up in.

To Niamh,goodness me who could have predicted a debate on Christianity and faith evolving from Helen and Aisleyne on BB.
It shows anything can be possible.:joker:

I turned from Christianity to Paganism (Wicca) because of the outrageous way the RC and C of E were so against Gay Marriage. I was appalled that institutions supposed to spread love & forgiveness could be so nasty to the LGBT community. In Wicca there is no such ignorance about unions between two loving individuals.

[joeysteele]

I turned from Christianity to Paganism (Wicca) because of the outrageous way the RC and C of E were so against Gay Marriage. I was appalled that institutions supposed to spread love & forgiveness could be so nasty to the LGBT community. In Wicca there is no such ignorance about unions between two loving individuals.

I don't blame you and in all frankness,the Roman Catholic Church and its views still as to the LGBT issue,come across as absolute hypocrisy when you look at the actions of some of its Priests and indeed Bishops too.