Bookkeeper of Auschwitz was made to pay for murdering 300,000 Jews

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/14/17/27CF24D700000578-3161043-image-a-15_1436891966375.jpghttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/15/09/2A8B7E0200000578-3161043-image-a-23_1436947854197.jpg



94-year-old former death camp officer sentenced to four years behind bars
Found guilty of being accessory to murder of 300,000 Jews in Auschwitz
He had accepted moral responsibility but denied committing any crime
Sentence will likely mean Groening, who is in poor health, will die in jail



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3161043/71-years-helped-Nazis-kill-300-000-Jews-bookkeeper-Auschwitz-finally-faces-justice-German-court-delivers-verdict-om-Oskar-Groening-morning.html#ixzz3fwyL0Zxv

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But the question is

As a 21 year old German soldier, what could he have done differently?

[user104658]

He could have refused and then he would probably have been shot.

I'm not going to pass too much comment because I don't know the ins and outs of this specific case (maybe he went above and beyond the call of duty), but in general, my opinion is that the only people who should be considered guilty of war crimes are those giving the orders, not those following them.

Otherwise every soldier that is or ever has been to war is a criminal.

[Crimson Dynamo]

He could have refused and then he would probably have been shot.

I'm not going to pass too much comment because I don't know the ins and outs of this specific case, but in general, my opinion is that the only people who should be considered guilty of war crimes are those giving the orders, not those following them.

Otherwise every soldier that is or ever has been to war is a criminal.

He would have been sent to the Russian front or later in the war, shot

[MTVN]

One of those top comments puts it well saying he was 'Convicted for the crime of outliving those who actually committed the crimes'

[arista]

4 Years

He may get out alive

[user104658]

4 Years

He may get out alive
I don't think it particularly matters, he's 94 and has lived his life. Whether he's guilty or not this is a bit of a charade... Not about justice, more of a stunt really.

[joeysteele]

He could have refused and then he would probably have been shot.

I'm not going to pass too much comment because I don't know the ins and outs of this specific case (maybe he went above and beyond the call of duty), but in general, my opinion is that the only people who should be considered guilty of war crimes are those giving the orders, not those following them.

Otherwise every soldier that is or ever has been to war is a criminal.

Strong, thought provoking post, this is exactly what my Grandfather said as to these trials too.
Good post again TS.

[Tom4784]

Terrible, if he was actually giving the orders then I can understand but he was just a monkey, why punish the monkey for the organ grinder's crimes?

Will every still living German soldier that served during WW2 also be made to be punished for simply following orders? It's dumb, illogical and it isn't justice, it's emotionally driven spite. It's just punishing someone for following orders because the truly evil people are already dead.

[Livia]

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

[Livia]

I don't think it particularly matters, he's 94 and has lived his life. Whether he's guilty or not this is a bit of a charade... Not about justice, more of a stunt really.

There are survivors of the Holocaust who might disagree with you.

[Tom4784]

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

Where does it end? Should we round up all the still living Germans from that era and try them for allowing the Nazis to get into power too? We can't get the people in charge so let's get the people who lived in that era instead, they couldn't do anything to change what was happening but their inaction is obviously an admission of complicity.

He was basically admin, he was a glorified receptionist by the sounds of things. Blame the people who gave the orders, put them on trial. Going after people who likely didn't have a choice in the matter is just pointless and a waste.

[user104658]

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

I don't think it's really about sympathy, I for one don't have "sympathy" for him and couldn't give a stuff what happens to him. It doesn't matter. He's old. Most people don't reach the age of 94 at all so whether they kill him, let him die in jail, whatever, it's all sort of redundant... for better or worse, he's already had his life. So no, it's not about sympathy, more about pointing out the futility of it.

There are survivors of the Holocaust who might disagree with you.

You're contradicting your own post there, though. "He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place."

So, by your own thinking, does this feel like justice? Or even vengeance? He can go to jail and sit in a room for a couple of years until he dies. Or he could stay out of jail and... err... sit in a room for a couple of years until he dies. Because he's 94. So I stand by what I said: it's not about justice or about this man, it's a stunt, a charade, perhaps to make some sort of point, or as the article itself says; "The historic significance of the trial of Oskar Groening, and the opportunity it provides for to educate a generation that is all too distant from the horrors of the Holocaust."

In a couple of decades, WW2 and the Holocaust will be entirely outwith living memory. It sort of feels like anything that happens now is little more than an attempt to bookend history... a cry of "Lest we forget", perhaps, or more likely, purely for appearences.

[arista]

"In a couple of decades, WW2 and the Holocaust will be entirely outwith living memory. "

Maybe,
but not the two Atomic Bombs dropped Fast on Japan
in August 1945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki


Thats a benchmark for the Next Nuke War

[Pete.]

Punished yes he should have been. Sentenced to prison aged 94, I don't agree with.

[user104658]

"In a couple of decades, WW2 and the Holocaust will be entirely outwith living memory. "

Maybe,
but not the two Atomic Bombs dropped Fast on Japan
in August 1945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki


Thats a benchmark for the Next Nuke War

By "outwith living memory" I simply mean that anyone who was alive and old enough to remember the time will be dead. This applies to the nuking of Japan, too, as with all things. In a few decades, no one will remember it. We will know it happened, we will have history books, we will remember our grandparents talking about it, but no one will be alive who can say; "Yes, I remember it, I remember the news breaking, I remember the headlines the next day."

Also, off topic but, the Japan A-bombs are hardly a benchmark for the "Next" nuclear war (i.e. the end of the world). See the spoiler below. To scale, the tiny puff of smoke at the bottom is a 15KT nuclear blast, the same size as the Hiroshima A-bomb. The main image is the size of the blast of the largest tested United States warhead.

http://www.nucleardarkness.org/include/nucleardarkness//images/high_yield_vs_low_yield_4_bombs_750.jpg

[Jay.]

am i the only one wondering why he's being jailed, if he was just a librarian? like he wasn't exactly the brains behind it...

[Livia]

Where does it end? Should we round up all the still living Germans from that era and try them for allowing the Nazis to get into power too? We can't get the people in charge so let's get the people who lived in that era instead, they couldn't do anything to change what was happening but their inaction is obviously an admission of complicity.

He was basically admin, he was a glorified receptionist by the sounds of things. Blame the people who gave the orders, put them on trial. Going after people who likely didn't have a choice in the matter is just pointless and a waste.

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

[Livia]

am i the only one wondering why he's being jailed, if he was just a librarian? like he wasn't exactly the brains behind it...

A librarian? He was the "bookkeeper". He was the one who collated and counted the money taken from people arriving at the concentration camp, before they were murdered.

[Livia]

By "outwith living memory" I simply mean that anyone who was alive and old enough to remember the time will be dead. This applies to the nuking of Japan, too, as with all things. In a few decades, no one will remember it. We will know it happened, we will have history books, we will remember our grandparents talking about it, but no one will be alive who can say; "Yes, I remember it, I remember the news breaking, I remember the headlines the next day."

Also, off topic but, the Japan A-bombs are hardly a benchmark for the "Next" nuclear war (i.e. the end of the world). See the spoiler below. To scale, the tiny puff of smoke at the bottom is a 15KT nuclear blast, the same size as the Hiroshima A-bomb. The main image is the size of the blast of the largest tested United States warhead.

http://www.nucleardarkness.org/include/nucleardarkness//images/high_yield_vs_low_yield_4_bombs_750.jpg

My grandmother is very much alive and came to this country after being liberated from a concentration camp. My grandfather - Alev Hashalom - was also liberated and came to Britain. She still bears the tattoo on her arm. She still keeps the bag packed under her bed with her jewellery and money in case they ever come again.

This isn't a thread about Japan.

[smudgie]

On paper, it does look futile jailing this old man, however, I think only the people that have suffered the horrors of the concentrating camps can really say if it is justice or not.:shrug:

[Jay.]

A librarian? He was the "bookkeeper". He was the one who collated and counted the money taken from people arriving at the concentration camp, before they were murdered.

omg D: he deserves it a little bit then.. although, we don't know the full story, at the time, I guess :worry:

[Livia]

omg D: he deserves it a little bit then.. although, we don't know the full story, at the time, I guess :worry:

He's just had a legitimate legal trial and he's been jailed. I think the full story came out.

[arista]

By "outwith living memory" I simply mean that anyone who was alive and old enough to remember the time will be dead. This applies to the nuking of Japan, too, as with all things. In a few decades, no one will remember it. We will know it happened, we will have history books, we will remember our grandparents talking about it, but no one will be alive who can say; "Yes, I remember it, I remember the news breaking, I remember the headlines the next day."

Also, off topic but, the Japan A-bombs are hardly a benchmark for the "Next" nuclear war (i.e. the end of the world). See the spoiler below. To scale, the tiny puff of smoke at the bottom is a 15KT nuclear blast, the same size as the Hiroshima A-bomb. The main image is the size of the blast of the largest tested United States warhead.

http://www.nucleardarkness.org/include/nucleardarkness//images/high_yield_vs_low_yield_4_bombs_750.jpg


Yes the Conclusion of the 2nd World War.
But the Soon Start of WW3

[arista]

My grandmother is very much alive and came to this country after being liberated from a concentration camp. My grandfather - Alev Hashalom - was also liberated and came to Britain. She still bears the tattoo on her arm. She still keeps the bag packed under her bed with her jewellery and money in case they ever come again.

This isn't a thread about Japan.


Sorry Livia
thats my fault

[Livia]

Sorry Livia
thats my fault

Don't apologise arista I know it's something you feel strongly about, even though I don't agree x

[Marsh.]

am i the only one wondering why he's being jailed, if he was just a librarian? like he wasn't exactly the brains behind it...

D:

[Samuel.]

In no way deserved.

Bizarre decision, especially 70 years on.

[DemolitionRed]

I am totally with Livia on this one. If people like Susan Pollack or Livia's grandparents think that Oskar Groning should go to prison then who the hell are we to disagree? These people are living victims of men like him. Livia's grandmother still keeps a packed case under her bed; she is still a victim and victims deserve closure.

With war crime there is no statutes of limitation and he is clearly a war criminal.

[Samuel.]

The emotionally invested shouldn't be the ones deciding fair unbiased justice

[JoshBB]

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

[Ammi]

...as someone who isn't emotionally invested, my thoughts are that so much has been placed on 4 years of imprisonment for an old man, when the thing of it is over 70 yrs of freedom for him when he wasn't a 94yr old man, he wasn't actually instrumental in killing anyone himself so 4yrs seems a very lenient but just term...I can't imagine what it would feel like to be a Holocaust survivor or victim's relative... would it bring any sense of 'satisfaction'..?...I doubt it, nothing could do that I would say but at least it's the knowledge that he hasn't lived his whole entire life as a free man and never had to answer to anyone for his part....

[Livia]

The emotionally invested shouldn't be the ones deciding fair unbiased justice

He had a fair trial in a German court of law, with a prosecution and a defence.

[Tom4784]

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

I'm just going on what's written in the story but it sounded, like a lot of people in WW2 Germany, he was just following orders. If there's proof to say otherwise than fair enough but if not then I don't think he should be punished as, like TS said, it's futile and it's not justice.

[JoshBB]

I'm just going on what's written in the story but it sounded, like a lot of people in WW2 Germany, he was just following orders. If there's proof to say otherwise than fair enough but if not then I don't think he should be punished as, like TS said, it's futile and it's not justice.

The court found him guilty, so I would assume there is sufficient evidence. They are professionals and would consider things like that. Unless there was a vested interest, and all of the people in the court would more than likely be checked for that, there would be very little room for bias.

[DemolitionRed]

I don't think the imprisonment matters, its the fact that he's been brought into the public eye and found guilty.

[Tom4784]

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

People who opposed the Nazi regime had a tendency of being killed and their families would most likely meet a similar fate. What could he (or anyone) have done?

[user104658]

I am totally with Livia on this one. If people like Susan Pollack or Livia's grandparents think that Oskar Groning should go to prison then who the hell are we to disagree? These people are living victims of men like him. Livia's grandmother still keeps a packed case under her bed; she is still a victim and victims deserve closure.

With war crime there is no statutes of limitation and he is clearly a war criminal.
I don't disagree that he should have gone to jail, like I said I'm not a sympathiser and I don't really care if he dies in a chair in a cell or dies in a chair in a house. Or in a chair at all for that matter. He's almost certainly going to die within the next few years and I doubt he's out clubbing or climbing mountains at the moment which is what makes it all seem - to me - sort of irrelevant. Is it harsh of me to say that I sort of consider anyone over 90 to be, basically, already dead? Probably sort of is, but I probably sort of do... Which I guess informs a lot of my opinion on this.

Then again, if it does give people who have suffered some sort of closure, even if it's only a little, then that at least is a positive side effect of it all. I'm just very (very, very) skeptical that that has anything at all to do with the reasons for his trial and conviction, which smacks of "making some sort of point for some reason". A bit of showmanship rather than actual justice.

[user104658]

People who opposed the Nazi regime had a tendency of being killed and their families would most likely meet a similar fate. What could he (or anyone) have done?
It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

[Samuel.]

He had a fair trial in a German court of law, with a prosecution and a defence.

It was directed at those arguing that if imprisonment is what the victims and their families want then who is to say otherwise.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

what would you have had him do?

[Samuel.]

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

Very true.

[Shaun]

I don't really see what it's meant to achieve. He's practically dead already, it's not going to heal any wounds and he's not directly responsible for any of it :shrug: but I'm not going to lose sleep over his situation.

[Livia]

My Grandmother is also in her 90s. She's far from dead despite the start in life she had. She still ballroom dances, shops, enjoys her family... unlike 6 million who weren't so lucky. Her life is as valid as anyone else's. This man, although also in his 90s, has received justice at long last. He was an officer, not an ordinary solider, and was found guilty in a German court of law guilty of being accessory to the murder of 300,000 Jews so all the supposition that he wasn't responsible and was only following orders is, in my opinion, apologetic hogwash. Never forget. Never forget. Never forget.

[MTVN]

I do think he has some responsibility. Saying he was 'just following orders' takes away from the fact that he presumably did very much believe in the Nazi cause. There's nothing unusual about that: large swathes of the German population did. It goes beyond psychological defects and deference to authority - this was an ideology that enamoured millions of people and that they were utterly convinced of. He was a cog in the machine and so I do understand the argument in favour of jailing him. I think he does as well really - he has accepted all through the trial that he bears a moral responsibility for being swept along in the Nazi vision. My qualms are more just about whether this is really in the public interest and whether it's not just some attempt to make up for those who played a much bigger part and yet escaped justice.

But, like Shaun, I won't lose sleep over it.

[Livia]

I do think he has some responsibility. Saying he was 'just following orders' takes away from the fact that he presumably did very much believe in the Nazi cause. There's nothing unusual about that: large swathes of the German population did. It goes beyond psychological defects and deference to authority - this was an ideology that enamoured millions of people and that they were utterly convinced of. He was a cog in the machine and so I do understand the argument in favour of jailing him. I think he does as well really - he has accepted all through the trial that he bears a moral responsibility for being swept along in the Nazi vision. My qualms are more just about whether this is really in the public interest and whether it's not just some attempt to make up for those who played a much bigger part and yet escaped justice.

But, like Shaun, I won't lose sleep over it.

Many war criminals have been jailed over the years as their deeds have been dragged into the light. Many were executed, and rightly in my opinion. And yes, you're right, the German people were swept along with it. The treatment of Jews by the ordinary German people even outside the camps was a blight on their history and one that Germany has gone to great lengths to try to put right.

[user104658]

Well exactly, and I have a suspicion that this is more about Germany doing some "final bits of putting things right" with the last few scrappy officers they can find alive in order to bookend the war and go forward with a laundered reputation once the war passes out of living memory. I get that there are still a few surviving people from that era but my original point was that, in a couple of decades time, there won't be. That means that Germany only has a few years to squeeze in a few final convictions for brownie points. This guy was barely out of his teens during the war and is now pushing 100... The fact is, there simply aren't any of the real ghouls of WW2 left to convict. They were either caught and tried long ago or they've already lived out their lives free and died.

This guy, if you read the articles, really can't be described as much more than a minor cog in the SS machine. Does that make him an innocent? No, it does sound like he was self-serving and at the very least took advantage of a "privileged" posting even if he is being truthful about not being 100% on board with it. But it does marginally make him little more than a scapegoat for the really awful ones who are long gone.

[Livia]

Well exactly, and I have a suspicion that this is more about Germany doing some "final bits of putting things right" with the last few scrappy officers they can find alive in order to bookend the war and go forward with a laundered reputation once the war passes out of living memory. I get that there are still a few surviving people from that era but my original point was that, in a couple of decades time, there won't be. That means that Germany only has a few years to squeeze in a few final convictions for brownie points. This guy was barely out of his teens during the war and is now pushing 100... The fact is, there simply aren't any of the real ghouls of WW2 left to convict. They were either caught and tried long ago or they've already lived out their lives free and died.

This guy, if you read the articles, really can't be described as much more than a minor cog in the SS machine. Does that make him an innocent? No, it does sound like he was self-serving and at the very least took advantage of a "privileged" posting even if he is being truthful about not being 100% on board with it. But it does marginally make him little more than a scapegoat for the really awful ones who are long gone.

I understand that this cynical viewpoint is your own opinion TS. I disagree with it 100%. I've said all I have to say about it.

[Ammi]

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

.....the absolute truth of it is that some people would do whatever was asked of them and some people wouldn't do it, which is why through history we have people reacting differently in extreme and extraordinary situations...and by your own reasoning then, you have no idea how you would feel yourself about his sentencing unless you were personally touched in your life by his being a 'small cog'...would you still think it was pointless after such a long time that he be answerable for his part...in as much certainty that I can ever have of anything in life, I know that a life of living and knowledge of being a part of that would be far worse for me than a nothingness of death...

...everyone in the Nazi regime was answerable to Hitler so if no one 'could help' what their role was, then no one was answerable to any war crime, even if they let the gas into gas chambers themselves, surely..?...but that's not the case is it because every part of that cog played a part in mass genocide...Oskar Gröning's part and what he was 'forced' to do/'had no choice' was only over for a few years of his life, he's had over 70yrs since then (and through his own free choice..)...to have made himself answerable and if he had done that, then maybe at 94yrs of age, he would be a free man and with his family...I've read up a little bit about him and after the war he took full advantage of his position in the Nazi Party to gain back his old job and to prosper from there, refusing to acknowledge anything he did even to his own family...he chose to 'hide' and to forget/his own free choice and all for his own self preservation...nothing 'given back' to a race of Jews in his conscience for anything he did in his war years....no signs of 'I'm sorry..'....


..I'd like to think that this sentencing is not just the court's final bits of putting things right but an acknowledgement that he could not be left unanswerable and he could not go without some punishment, regardless of his age because as I say, he very much had a choice through his life of accepting his accountability without it being forced on him...and of course he's not a monster, he's every bit a human being which is why also we should never forget, we should never forget what some humans are capable of and we should never forget that they feel they can escape accountability because they are old...

[MTVN]

.....the absolute truth of it is that some people would do whatever was asked of them and some people wouldn't do it, which is why through history we have people reacting differently in extreme and extraordinary situations...and by your own reasoning then, you have no idea how you would feel yourself about his sentencing unless you were personally touched in your life by his being a 'small cog'...would you still think it was pointless after such a long time that he be answerable for his part...in as much certainty that I can ever have of anything in life, I know that a life of living and knowledge of being a part of that would be far worse for me than a nothingness of death...

...everyone in the Nazi regime was answerable to Hitler so if no one 'could help' what their role was, then no one was answerable to any war crime, even if they let the gas into gas chambers themselves, surely..?...but that's not the case is it because every part of that cog played a part in mass genocide...Oskar Gröning's part and what he was 'forced' to do/'had no choice' was only over for a few years of his life, he's had over 70yrs since then (and through his own free choice..)...to have made himself answerable and if he had done that, then maybe at 94yrs of age, he would be a free man and with his family...I've read up a little bit about him and after the war he took full advantage of his position in the Nazi Party to gain back his old job and to prosper from there, refusing to acknowledge anything he did even to his own family...he chose to 'hide' and to forget/his own free choice and all for his own self preservation...nothing 'given back' to a race of Jews in his conscience for anything he did in his war years....no signs of 'I'm sorry..'....


..I'd like to think that this sentencing is not just the court's final bits of putting things right but an acknowledgement that he could not be left unanswerable and he could not go without some punishment, regardless of his age because as I say, he very much had a choice through his life of accepting his accountability without it being forced on him...and of course he's not a monster, he's every bit a human being which is why also we should never forget, we should never forget what some humans are capable of and we should never forget that they feel they can escape accountability because they are old...

Hasn't he openly talked about his experiences in the last couple of decades though as a way to combat holocaust denial? That is something at least

[joeysteele]

Personally I fail to now see what imprisoning someone who is 94 is going to achieve rather than just vengeance,rather than justice.
I said earlier,my Grandfather who was in the war, said much the same to me about things like this as Toy Soldier was saying.
That most German soldiers were doing what they were told to do,had they not they would have been liekly killed and their families suffer too.
Just as,as my Grandfather said, all soldiers in the war were obeying orders for their Nations heads too.
My Grandfather said he never actually wanted to go and kill anyone but had to or be punished himself or killed himself.
That is the futility and price of so called 'glory'.
He was sickened for the rest of his life by what he came across and was unfurled as to what the Germans had done to so many people, Jews,disabled and gay people and Gypsies.

Having said that and it is my position still to be slightly more with Toy Soldier on this one,there is of course the other side of it that I can equally see and therein Livia makes really strong points too.
Livia speaks, and with authority, for all who lost many in the holocaust and those who almost did lose friends and families too.
Whether some did get freed eventually and could be considered the lucky ones from this horrific nightmare,those people freed will have certainly lost friends and family at some point during the barbaric and inhuman actions of Germany.
It is then understandable the strong line from Livia, especially as to her own Grandmother too.

So while we can look at this and for some of us, see no point in these trials or imprisonments,it has to be equally taken on board that those who lost so many are fully entitled to some recognition of a fact than such inhuman and heartless actions against other human beings can never be reconciled or indeed forgiven really.
Also as Livia says, the World should never,never ever forget.
I hope we don't ever forget.

[user104658]

It should never be forgotten but equally important is that the truth of it should never be forgotten. There is a real danger in remembering "bogeymen" in place of people when it comes to the horrors of the past. It is important to remember but also important to understand - and the latter is something that many, understandably I suppose, instinctual pull away from.

We must remember what happened, yes.

We must also remember how easy it was for normal people to be indoctrinated into regarding other humans as less than human.

We must also acknowledge that many people did many horrific things under order, in order to protect themselves and those around them.

We must acknowledge and remember these things because failing to do so edges us closer to believing that the same thing couldn't happen again, at any time, anywhere. That there was something inherently different about people in Nazi Germany that means it "couldn't happen now" or "couldn't be us or our governments".

[Kizzy]

One of those top comments puts it well saying he was 'Convicted for the crime of outliving those who actually committed the crimes'

100% agree with that statement too.

[Z]

This is a complex issue that I could debate endlessly... and never come to the same conclusion. He was there, on the right side of the fence. Regardless of his attitude or why he was there, whether he enjoyed it, whether he pulled a trigger or not; he knew what was going on there.

I've been to Sachsenhausen. We walked the route from the train station that any of the transported prisoners would have walked to the camp. The townspeople in Oranienburg feigned ignorance and said they had no idea what was going on in a camp that was on the edge of their town - it would have been impossible to not know. German guilt has translated into convictions for war crimes and while I think that's a good thing, the world at large can only lament that it took so long for them to start doing so.

While I think it's ultimately a bit fruitless to be prosecuting a 90-something Nazi bookkeeper for war crimes, I think it's symbolic of the fact that justice has eventually been dealt - it might not be much and it will certainly never be enough to make up for what happened but it's the best anyone can do at this stage and I'm sure that for anyone who lost someone they loved to the Nazi concentration camps, this is still an important conviction.

Yes, he was probably swept up in what he had to do to survive - it wasn't his fault personally that concentration camps came to be... but he was there. He was a witness, an accessory, a cog in a machine and he had to make the tough choice between surviving by any means or being killed himself. He made his choice and lived to be in his 90s. All choices have consequences.

[Kizzy]

If you are a member of the armed forces are you an accessory any more than the civilians, is it not true that not duped into believing what they did was for the greater good, everyone is conditioned by their respective leaders that what they do is against a malevolent force.
This man is a scapegoat, he followed orders as all servicemen and women and as at risk as anyone he processed. It's strange how things work, our war criminals get state funerals.

[billy123]

If you are a member of the armed forces are you an accessory any more than the civilians, is it not true that not duped into believing what they did was for the greater good, everyone is conditioned by their respective leaders that what they do is against a malevolent force.
This man is a scapegoat, he followed orders as all servicemen and women and as at risk as anyone he processed. It's strange how things work, our war criminals get state funerals.
It should serve as a warning for everyone even our own troops today in the Middle East that even though they think they are just doing their job today they are infact murdering people at the request of their superiors and history might not be on their side in the future. Murder is Murder however you paint it.

[Kazanne]

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

:worship::clap1: No sympathy for the old bastard at all,he is old now and looks harmless,his deeds were abhorrent,and he needs punishing even if it is a bit lame.

[Samuel.]

It should serve as a warning for everyone even our own troops today in the Middle East that even though they think they are just doing their job today they are infact murdering people at the request of their superiors and history might not be on their side in the future. Murder is Murder however you paint it.

Very true.

They're viewed as a hero now but who knows what in 50 years time, could be facing a similar fate.

[Livia]

Very true.

They're viewed as a hero now but who knows what in 50 years time, could be facing a similar fate.

A similar fate? You think our troops are building concentration camps? When my husband served in Afghanistan the only thing he participated in building was a school. The Taliban bombed it twice and they built it back up again. Everything the British Army does is in line with the Geneva Convention The UN Charter on War and other laws. If they're broken the troops are brought to account. You either have a deep misunderstanding of the Nazis or of the British Army, or both.

[the truth]

That's all true Livia, however blairs illegal bombing which killed a million innocent people is one of the worst atrocities in human history and should be viewed as such. Blair and bush should be treated as war criminals and brought before the international criminal court in the hague. These pathetic multi million pound 10 year whitewash investigations are an insult

[Samuel.]

A similar fate? You think our troops are building concentration camps? When my husband served in Afghanistan the only thing he participated in building was a school. The Taliban bombed it twice and they built it back up again. Everything the British Army does is in line with the Geneva Convention The UN Charter on War and other laws. If they're broken the troops are brought to account. You either have a deep misunderstanding of the Nazis or of the British Army, or both.

A similar fate I said, not a similar crime. Not from our perspective at least.

[Kizzy]

A similar fate? You think our troops are building concentration camps? When my husband served in Afghanistan the only thing he participated in building was a school. The Taliban bombed it twice and they built it back up again. Everything the British Army does is in line with the Geneva Convention The UN Charter on War and other laws. If they're broken the troops are brought to account. You either have a deep misunderstanding of the Nazis or of the British Army, or both.

Is Tony Blair not accused of starting an illegal war in Iraq?

[Livia]

Is Tony Blair not accused of starting an illegal war in Iraq?

Yes, Tony Blair. That's a whole different thread.

[user104658]

To be pragmatic, though, there is no difference between the pilots who dropped bombs under orders in Bush and Blair's illegal war and the German soldiers who invaded the bulk of Europe in WW2.

I can, however, appreciate that there is a difference between the actions of a boots-on-the-ground soldier and an officer in a prison camp, so whilst it would be fair to compare the British armed forces to the general German army in WW2, you can't really compare them to the man that this thread is about.

[bots]

Some people seem to have a strange perception over what is legal and what is not. It is not illegal to bomb another country and Blair did get parliaments approval for taking the action. He did not authorise or participate in war crimes.

[Kizzy]

Yes, Tony Blair. That's a whole different thread.

Not at all, he was PM and he allegedly started a war without any of the safeguards in place you mentioned, how was that possible?

[bots]

The focus of the issue is this. If someone is an accomplice in breaking peoples fundamental human rights, it is a personal responsibility that cannot be passed on to a more senior ranking person. The same principles apply now in many walks of life. If the person was coerced into doing it, then of course it puts a different slant on it, but that's what courts are there for.

I don't think there is any suggestion that there is any impropriety in the court coming to its conclusion, and the accused does still have the right to appeal, so in my opinion, whatever the final conclusion is, it will be the correct judgement.

[Kizzy]

''So few of those responsible for the genocide of Europe’s Jews have been held to account in postwar Germany that the German writer and Holocaust survivor Ralph Giordano described it as a “second guilt”.
But in 2011 a German court found John Demjanjuk, a Soviet prisoner-of-war who volunteered as an SS guard, guilty of being an accessory to the murder of 27,900 Jews at the Sobibor extermination camp.
When Thomas Walther, a government official tasked with investigating Nazi crimes, sought to bring charges against Demjanjuk, his colleagues laughed.
But the case overturned years of legal precedent in the German courts that only the senior Nazi leadership could be held responsible for the crimes of the Holocaust. For the first time, anyone who had been a guard at a death camp could be held guilty.''

So it seems that Germany only decided to try any SS officer from 2011, wonder what prompted the change.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11430918/Germany-charges-94-year-old-former-medic-at-Auschwitz-with-3600-counts-of-accessory-to-murder.html

[Z]

''So few of those responsible for the genocide of Europe’s Jews have been held to account in postwar Germany that the German writer and Holocaust survivor Ralph Giordano described it as a “second guilt”.
But in 2011 a German court found John Demjanjuk, a Soviet prisoner-of-war who volunteered as an SS guard, guilty of being an accessory to the murder of 27,900 Jews at the Sobibor extermination camp.
When Thomas Walther, a government official tasked with investigating Nazi crimes, sought to bring charges against Demjanjuk, his colleagues laughed.
But the case overturned years of legal precedent in the German courts that only the senior Nazi leadership could be held responsible for the crimes of the Holocaust. For the first time, anyone who had been a guard at a death camp could be held guilty.''

So it seems that Germany only decided to try any SS officer from 2011, wonder what prompted the change.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11430918/Germany-charges-94-year-old-former-medic-at-Auschwitz-with-3600-counts-of-accessory-to-murder.html

Because time marches on and the millions of people who lost their families to the genocide carried out by the Nazi regime deserve justice, even if it's down to the dregs of the Nazi party. There is a difference between what the Nazis did to Jews, gays, gypsies, the disabled and anyone else they saw fit to put into their government sanctioned slaughter houses; and what happens in the usual horrors of war. This was something extraordinary in the literal meaning of the word - the world had never seen anything quite like it and I hope will never see it again... I'd hope that the same justice would be dished out to any perpetrators in the Rwandan genocide or if/when the North Korean regime falls and the extent of what happens in the gulags over there ever comes to light... but what we have is a German government that has accepted the burden of the past and done its best to try and right the few wrongs they are able to... nothing will change what happened, nothing will change that this particular man went on to lead a full life afterwards... the past cannot be undone, but the future can still be written. Well done to the German legal system for pursuing this line of action - it'll be controversial long after this man dies and the last of those who can remember World War II are gone but at least it was something.

[user104658]

Because time marches on and the millions of people who lost their families to the genocide carried out by the Nazi regime deserve justice, even if it's down to the dregs of the Nazi party. There is a difference between what the Nazis did to Jews, gays, gypsies, the disabled and anyone else they saw fit to put into their government sanctioned slaughter houses; and what happens in the usual horrors of war. This was something extraordinary in the literal meaning of the word - the world had never seen anything quite like it and I hope will never see it again... I'd hope that the same justice would be dished out to any perpetrators in the Rwandan genocide or if/when the North Korean regime falls and the extent of what happens in the gulags over there ever comes to light... but what we have is a German government that has accepted the burden of the past and done its best to try and right the few wrongs they are able to... nothing will change what happened, nothing will change that this particular man went on to lead a full life afterwards... the past cannot be undone, but the future can still be written. Well done to the German legal system for pursuing this line of action - it'll be controversial long after this man dies and the last of those who can remember World War II are gone but at least it was something.
There's a difference between justice and vengeance.

[Livia]

Not at all, he was PM and he allegedly started a war without any of the safeguards in place you mentioned, how was that possible?

Because he lied about weapons of mass destruction, went so far as to "sex up" a document in order to get Parliament to give him to go ahead. Which they did. It wasn't that long ago, I'm surprised you don't remember it. And it's got little to do with this debate.

There's a difference between justice and vengeance.

There is a difference. Justice happens in a court of law.

[Kizzy]

Because time marches on and the millions of people who lost their families to the genocide carried out by the Nazi regime deserve justice, even if it's down to the dregs of the Nazi party. There is a difference between what the Nazis did to Jews, gays, gypsies, the disabled and anyone else they saw fit to put into their government sanctioned slaughter houses; and what happens in the usual horrors of war. This was something extraordinary in the literal meaning of the word - the world had never seen anything quite like it and I hope will never see it again... I'd hope that the same justice would be dished out to any perpetrators in the Rwandan genocide or if/when the North Korean regime falls and the extent of what happens in the gulags over there ever comes to light... but what we have is a German government that has accepted the burden of the past and done its best to try and right the few wrongs they are able to... nothing will change what happened, nothing will change that this particular man went on to lead a full life afterwards... the past cannot be undone, but the future can still be written. Well done to the German legal system for pursuing this line of action - it'll be controversial long after this man dies and the last of those who can remember World War II are gone but at least it was something.

Poland since the war have managed to prosecute 700, this was ensuring there were nobody of any real importance left as a scapegoat for the atrocity. This isn't justice frankly it could never be, all this is is too little too late.

Because he lied about weapons of mass destruction, went so far as to "sex up" a document in order to get Parliament to give him to go ahead. Which they did. It wasn't that long ago, I'm surprised you don't remember it. And it's got little to do with this debate.

It wouldn't take much to confuse parliament would it, Did he also bamboozle the Geneva convention and NATO that he ticked all the boxes on the UN charter?
It has everything to do with the debate, it goes to show when a power is hellbent on a course of action little gets in the way.

[user104658]

There is a difference. Justice happens in a court of law.

Not always, and not exclusively.

[lostalex]

a sentence well deserved, but he should feel truly lucky he got to enjoy the best years of his life free. but he should never be free again.

[Z]

Too little, yes; too late, no. It's a symbolic measure. Everyone can see that. Nothing will repent for what happened but this is better than doing nothing and holding hands up and going :shrug:. This is justice. Vengeance would be capital punishment.

[Kizzy]

I can't see it, wait until there only not even as many as the fingers on one hand and they are less than a couple of years from death anyway? It's an insult.

[Livia]

It wouldn't take much to confuse parliament would it, Did he also bamboozle the Geneva convention and NATO that he ticked all the boxes on the UN charter?
It has everything to do with the debate, it goes to show when a power is hellbent on a course of action little gets in the way.

It has nothing to do with this. We're discussing someone who was actively involved in the mass slaughter of people in a concentration camp. Some people think he should get away with it scot free after living a long life, others think he should pay, no matter how much time has elapsed. All the diversionary talk about Blair is a separate issue. And we didn't go into that "illegal" war alone. I'm not sure what you mean about "bamboozling the Geneva Convention". The Geneva Convention is a series of four treaties, not a body of people.

[Kizzy]

It has nothing to do with this. We're discussing someone who was actively involved in the mass slaughter of people in a concentration camp. Some people think he should get away with it scot free after living a long life, others think he should pay, no matter how much time has elapsed. All the diversionary talk about Blair is a separate issue. And we didn't go into that "illegal" war alone. I'm not sure what you mean about "bamboozling the Geneva Convention". The Geneva Convention is a series of four treaties, not a body of people.

I disagree, the fact that there is a question mark over it at all is bad enough, it's irrelevant who else was or was not involved.
Far from being diversionary it's simply to illustrate that however many safeguards, treaties and or bodies of people there may be it happened.
I also disagree with the term actively involved the officer was a book keeper I read he had no say in issuing orders to kill or killing, I can't see how his incarceration in his 90s stands for anything in the grand scheme of things.

[Livia]

I disagree, the fact that there is a question mark over it at all is bad enough, it's irrelevant who else was or was not involved.
Far from being diversionary it's simply to illustrate that however many safeguards, treaties and or bodies of people there may be it happened.
I also disagree with the term actively involved the officer was a book keeper I read he had no say in issuing orders to kill or killing, I can't see how his incarceration in his 90s stands for anything in the grand scheme of things.

The court of law in which he was tried and found guilty had more information than you or I on what he did and didn't do. The term 'bookkeeper' seems a little innocuous for what he was actually doing. So whether or not you think it stands for anything is neither here nor there. I have faith that they came to the right decision.

[Kizzy]

The court of law in which he was tried and found guilty had more information than you or I on what he did and didn't do. The term 'bookkeeper' seems a little innocuous for what he was actually doing. So whether or not you think it stands for anything is neither here nor there. I have faith that they came to the right decision.

They have no reason to hold back information as to his level of involvement, the others had their duties exposed in the same way. Had they come to this decision 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50yrs ago it would have been the right one, now there's only those so far down the pecking order left it seems suspect (to me anyway).

[Livia]

They have no reason to hold back information as to his level of involvement, the others had their duties exposed in the same way. Had they come to this decision 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50yrs ago it would have been the right one, now there's only those so far down the pecking order left it seems suspect (to me anyway).

I never said they held back information, I said neither you nor I are privy to all the information from the trial. There should be no time cut-off if you've committed a crime (and he has committed a crime because he's been jailed for it) because of advanced age. He is just as guilty today as he was 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. To a lot of the survivors of Auschwitz it feels like it happened yesterday.

I have nothing more to say on this.

[Kizzy]

I never said they held back information, I said neither you nor I are privy to all the information from the trial. There should be no time cut-off if you've committed a crime (and he has committed a crime because he's been jailed for it) because of advanced age. He is just as guilty today as he was 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. To a lot of the survivors of Auschwitz it feels like it happened yesterday.

I have nothing more to say on this.

Then why have they only decided to prosecute post 2011, when Poland have successfully prosecuted over 700? I appreciate it's a pain that never leaves you as a survivor, which is why this delay seems so strange and begs the question why now?